1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:03,730 --> 00:00:07,210 Speaker 2: Hello listeners. It's Christina and welcome back. We hope you've 3 00:00:07,219 --> 00:00:10,199 Speaker 2: had a good end to 2023 and it's time to 4 00:00:10,210 --> 00:00:14,180 Speaker 2: get cracking with 2024. Hello, everyone, Adrian here and I 5 00:00:14,189 --> 00:00:16,020 Speaker 2: think for some of us it will take some time 6 00:00:16,030 --> 00:00:19,430 Speaker 2: to ease into the hustle and bustle of work life. 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,309 Speaker 2: But I hope for those of you starting new jobs 8 00:00:21,319 --> 00:00:25,299 Speaker 2: you find enjoyment and meaning Adrian. When I say Singaporean 9 00:00:25,309 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: Ceo of a major global company who comes to your mind, 10 00:00:28,370 --> 00:00:29,229 Speaker 2: I would say 11 00:00:29,420 --> 00:00:33,439 Speaker 2: maybe Tan Ming Liang from Razor, the company that makes 12 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:36,330 Speaker 2: all the gaming gear and most recently would be Ian, 13 00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:39,759 Speaker 2: the guy who makes the secret lab chess, which would 14 00:00:39,770 --> 00:00:41,819 Speaker 2: you call them a globe? Are they global company? I 15 00:00:41,950 --> 00:00:47,008 Speaker 2: think you can get their stuff everywhere. What about you? Ok. 16 00:00:47,020 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 2: So what I think the man who suddenly became famous 17 00:00:51,290 --> 00:00:53,950 Speaker 2: was the CEO of Tik Tok. 18 00:00:55,270 --> 00:00:58,889 Speaker 2: But in the studio with us today is another co-founder 19 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:02,319 Speaker 2: and CEO who was born in Singapore and you might 20 00:01:02,330 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: not know his name, but he is. Ryan Wong. Ryan 21 00:01:05,809 --> 00:01:09,879 Speaker 2: runs vizier, a recognized global leader in people analytics, providing 22 00:01:09,889 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: on demand answers to people, power businesses such as Bridgestone 23 00:01:13,489 --> 00:01:15,500 Speaker 2: and Electronic Arts. His head 24 00:01:15,769 --> 00:01:19,019 Speaker 2: in Vancouver Canada, where Ryan moved to when he was 26. 25 00:01:19,029 --> 00:01:21,620 Speaker 2: So stick around as we get him to give us 26 00:01:21,629 --> 00:01:24,709 Speaker 2: the lowdown on whether more Singaporeans can make the global 27 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,970 Speaker 2: CEO cut. What he thinks are some old fashioned hr 28 00:01:27,980 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: practices we need to get rid of. Welcome to the podcast. Ryan, 29 00:01:31,790 --> 00:01:34,238 Speaker 2: thank you for having me. Hello, thanks for coming on 30 00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:35,870 Speaker 2: to the show. Let's start with a bit of a 31 00:01:36,220 --> 00:01:39,389 Speaker 2: introduction. Can you give us a quick origin story? Let's see. 32 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,900 Speaker 2: Where do I start? I think, let me go all 33 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:48,809 Speaker 2: the way back. 1989 August 31st, I lived like twice 34 00:01:48,819 --> 00:01:51,519 Speaker 2: on that day. That's why I remember. But one day 35 00:01:51,529 --> 00:01:54,339 Speaker 2: it was in Singapore, it was my Rod day, the 36 00:01:54,349 --> 00:01:57,319 Speaker 2: day that I became a civilian from the army and 37 00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: the other is like I landed in Vancouver BC for 38 00:02:01,169 --> 00:02:02,839 Speaker 2: my school. I went to 39 00:02:03,139 --> 00:02:07,180 Speaker 2: University of British Columbia, finished my degree, came home and 40 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: worked as a software developer engineers for ST computers. And 41 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:15,389 Speaker 2: by chance I got posted to help one of the 42 00:02:15,399 --> 00:02:18,949 Speaker 2: venture in San Francisco Bay area. So I became an 43 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,479 Speaker 2: associate in a venture cap firm, then it was named 44 00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: Vertex Management. When you look at all the different start 45 00:02:25,729 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 2: up company 46 00:02:26,949 --> 00:02:29,660 Speaker 2: in the area, I feel like I'm more suited as 47 00:02:29,669 --> 00:02:32,508 Speaker 2: an engineer than an investor. So I joined a start 48 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,869 Speaker 2: up company then called Crystal Services who is based in 49 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:40,508 Speaker 2: Vancouver Canada. So they create a product called Crystal Report. 50 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,139 Speaker 2: Crystal Report was a pretty well known name. Crystal grew 51 00:02:44,149 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: organically to a pretty substantial size before they were acquired 52 00:02:47,449 --> 00:02:51,279 Speaker 2: by business objects and business object grew again and was 53 00:02:51,288 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 2: acquired by SAP. 54 00:02:52,809 --> 00:02:56,019 Speaker 2: So my journey in my career of building software has 55 00:02:56,029 --> 00:03:00,258 Speaker 2: been really revolving around those three company like Crystal Business 56 00:03:00,270 --> 00:03:03,910 Speaker 2: Object and S API left Singapore really twice. One for 57 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,460 Speaker 2: my school came home and then one for work. So 58 00:03:07,470 --> 00:03:10,690 Speaker 2: it's really out of work opportunity. Then I really truly 59 00:03:10,699 --> 00:03:13,990 Speaker 2: plan to get to where I am today. That's quite 60 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,388 Speaker 2: a common story where you go with the flow, right? 61 00:03:17,399 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 2: And where the opportunities are and where the opportunities are 62 00:03:20,130 --> 00:03:21,910 Speaker 2: and then you make your life around that. 63 00:03:22,210 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 2: Let's dive a little bit into your journey at your 64 00:03:25,369 --> 00:03:28,220 Speaker 2: current company. When I was reading about, it sounds like 65 00:03:28,229 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 2: a fairy tale almost. You know, you start with software 66 00:03:31,449 --> 00:03:34,919 Speaker 2: developers working on white boards in a rented townhouse. It's 67 00:03:34,929 --> 00:03:38,789 Speaker 2: very Silicon Valley, right? And then slowly you get a 68 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:45,539 Speaker 2: series a funding and then by 2021 you achieve unicorn status, 69 00:03:45,550 --> 00:03:46,970 Speaker 2: which is quite rare. 70 00:03:47,619 --> 00:03:51,130 Speaker 2: So for those who aren't familiar, a unicorn company is 71 00:03:51,139 --> 00:03:53,479 Speaker 2: a start up, right? Which is valued at 1 billion 72 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:56,919 Speaker 2: or or yeah. So I know it is impossible to 73 00:03:56,929 --> 00:04:00,869 Speaker 2: distill such a trajectory into a very short answer. But 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,500 Speaker 2: my question is how much of it was you being 75 00:04:04,509 --> 00:04:06,539 Speaker 2: at the right place at the right time when it 76 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:09,699 Speaker 2: came to your current co founding this company? This is 77 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: a great question. I always feel like company that reaches 78 00:04:13,009 --> 00:04:16,420 Speaker 2: status of a billion. If you ask my personal opinion, 79 00:04:16,428 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 2: you 80 00:04:17,250 --> 00:04:19,390 Speaker 2: like you say that you are in the right place 81 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:22,070 Speaker 2: at the right time because there are a lot of 82 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 2: start up company that work very hard, that never really 83 00:04:25,928 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: get the opportunity. So I'm very grateful that recognitions 84 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,899 Speaker 2: but a lot of it behind the scenes is a 85 00:04:31,910 --> 00:04:35,209 Speaker 2: lot of hard work start up is not easy. If 86 00:04:35,220 --> 00:04:38,529 Speaker 2: you look at the stats like 99 point something percent 87 00:04:38,540 --> 00:04:42,750 Speaker 2: of the start up company failed. Yeah, less than 1% 88 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,209 Speaker 2: of the start up company actually get to, I would 89 00:04:45,220 --> 00:04:49,100 Speaker 2: say unicorn status, I think worldwide. I will not have 90 00:04:49,109 --> 00:04:51,630 Speaker 2: the number on top of my head, but you can 91 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,540 Speaker 2: search it out. It's definitely less than 1%. So this 92 00:04:54,549 --> 00:04:58,850 Speaker 2: is quite something special, right? It is something special. It 93 00:04:58,859 --> 00:04:59,579 Speaker 2: is something 94 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:02,980 Speaker 2: in honestly not planned for. We got the status during 95 00:05:02,988 --> 00:05:07,988 Speaker 2: COVID where everything was shut down and our business is 96 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:14,029 Speaker 2: about helping organization understand how their employee impact business outcome. 97 00:05:14,609 --> 00:05:15,420 Speaker 2: And during COVID, 98 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:18,790 Speaker 2: guess what is the number one question that most company 99 00:05:18,799 --> 00:05:22,368 Speaker 2: has is can my company even survive? Where are my 100 00:05:22,380 --> 00:05:25,700 Speaker 2: employee now? They all work remotely? So there is a 101 00:05:25,709 --> 00:05:30,869 Speaker 2: sudden awakening of saying, holy cow, I don't understand our employee. 102 00:05:31,230 --> 00:05:34,539 Speaker 2: Who are they, where are they working? What are they doing? 103 00:05:34,549 --> 00:05:36,609 Speaker 2: How do they work? And how do I keep my 104 00:05:36,619 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 2: business afloat when half of them are not even around? 105 00:05:39,130 --> 00:05:42,630 Speaker 2: Because you can no longer observe them. We have great technology, 106 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,500 Speaker 2: we do have great technology, we have great execution, which 107 00:05:45,510 --> 00:05:46,010 Speaker 2: we do, 108 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:49,589 Speaker 2: but really is a kind of unplanned events such as 109 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,299 Speaker 2: COVID that really put us over the top. Just one 110 00:05:52,309 --> 00:05:55,339 Speaker 2: more thing because when I was looking at your co-founders, 111 00:05:55,350 --> 00:05:58,428 Speaker 2: so it appears that the three of them are related 112 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: to each other. I co found the business with John 113 00:06:01,369 --> 00:06:04,630 Speaker 2: Swartz who was ex CEO of business objects. 114 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,539 Speaker 2: So that's where you met him. Yeah, that's where I 115 00:06:07,549 --> 00:06:12,019 Speaker 2: met him in 2015, I think. So it's complicated when 116 00:06:12,029 --> 00:06:14,890 Speaker 2: you talk about founding members of the team because it's like, 117 00:06:14,899 --> 00:06:17,450 Speaker 2: how do you count? I would say that if you 118 00:06:17,459 --> 00:06:20,910 Speaker 2: were to count the regional founders, people in the town 119 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,869 Speaker 2: home with me, there's 11 of us. Oh, wow, that's interesting. 120 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,729 Speaker 2: So that's like Alibaba in a way, right? 121 00:06:26,988 --> 00:06:30,779 Speaker 2: Jack Ma had a whole slew of people, maybe 12 122 00:06:30,790 --> 00:06:34,769 Speaker 2: deputies or more that he needed to run the company 123 00:06:34,779 --> 00:06:37,329 Speaker 2: with building a business is not a one person job. 124 00:06:37,339 --> 00:06:40,589 Speaker 2: You know, like I think sometimes people glorify the CEO, 125 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,519 Speaker 2: but the reality is, is the CEO and the team. 126 00:06:43,850 --> 00:06:46,269 Speaker 2: I'm the kind of leader who never would like to 127 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,790 Speaker 2: say that I did it all myself. I would not 128 00:06:48,799 --> 00:06:51,709 Speaker 2: be possible to do it without the people around me. 129 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: I guess people just love to listen to the romanticized 130 00:06:54,609 --> 00:06:58,269 Speaker 2: version of it. A single person who conquer everything. But 131 00:06:58,488 --> 00:07:01,149 Speaker 2: with all the conversation we had with all these different leaders, 132 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,429 Speaker 2: everyone said the same thing, sing the same tune, which 133 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 2: is we need to have a team, my team instead 134 00:07:05,809 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: of myself. But leadership is important. It's the visionary guy 135 00:07:11,489 --> 00:07:14,149 Speaker 2: at the front where everybody is, all the cameras are on. 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: There's the American way 137 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,980 Speaker 2: I like to glorify hero. You got the superhero. Yeah, 138 00:07:19,989 --> 00:07:22,850 Speaker 2: it works in certain culture but not necessarily all. OK. 139 00:07:22,859 --> 00:07:25,540 Speaker 2: Before we get to the hr questions, we want your 140 00:07:25,549 --> 00:07:29,540 Speaker 2: take on this Chen Kai Fong when he was running EDB, 141 00:07:29,549 --> 00:07:32,570 Speaker 2: he wrote a commentary and basically said that while global 142 00:07:32,579 --> 00:07:33,779 Speaker 2: companies flock here, 143 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:37,100 Speaker 2: Singaporeans who are able and willing to lead them are 144 00:07:37,109 --> 00:07:40,420 Speaker 2: far and few between. So he cited a few reasons. 145 00:07:40,429 --> 00:07:44,179 Speaker 2: Nothing earth shattering. We are good at doing not creating 146 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:46,380 Speaker 2: we value results, not risk. 147 00:07:46,690 --> 00:07:49,630 Speaker 2: Do you agree with that? And do you think something 148 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,170 Speaker 2: needs to be changed? Perhaps it is not easy problem 149 00:07:53,179 --> 00:07:57,510 Speaker 2: to solve? And I have witnessed firsthand how our government 150 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:01,829 Speaker 2: attempt to solve this very questions that you'd have. Even 151 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:04,589 Speaker 2: when I was in ST I was working a lot 152 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,809 Speaker 2: around a lot of Singapore scholars and I was like 153 00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:10,380 Speaker 2: the lucky one I'm not a scholar but actually get 154 00:08:10,390 --> 00:08:11,230 Speaker 2: posted to 155 00:08:11,454 --> 00:08:15,244 Speaker 2: V CS and the Singapore scholar have a very schedule 156 00:08:15,255 --> 00:08:18,524 Speaker 2: and plan track on what they do one over another. 157 00:08:18,535 --> 00:08:21,684 Speaker 2: We're trying to arm our young people then I was young, 158 00:08:21,695 --> 00:08:24,614 Speaker 2: one of them at 20 something with all the skills 159 00:08:24,625 --> 00:08:26,725 Speaker 2: that we have to go conquer the world and run 160 00:08:26,734 --> 00:08:30,475 Speaker 2: big companies and build talents and in honesty hasn't been 161 00:08:30,484 --> 00:08:33,354 Speaker 2: working very well. In fact, a lot of the investment 162 00:08:33,364 --> 00:08:35,924 Speaker 2: in the Bay Area wouldn't consider that a big success. 163 00:08:36,270 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm sure there are a lot of research done on 164 00:08:38,450 --> 00:08:42,089 Speaker 2: it as in why we have the best education system 165 00:08:42,099 --> 00:08:44,890 Speaker 2: in the world. So we have the top two university now. 166 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:48,429 Speaker 2: Nt and NUS is like top one, top two ranking 167 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,909 Speaker 2: in the like in the world. It's in the top 168 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:54,570 Speaker 2: 10 for sure. So we produce very good education and 169 00:08:54,580 --> 00:08:58,449 Speaker 2: why not enough leaders and business leaders. I'm sure there 170 00:08:58,460 --> 00:08:59,919 Speaker 2: are a lot of opinions about that. 171 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:02,270 Speaker 2: Is that the question that you're trying to ask me? 172 00:09:02,719 --> 00:09:05,270 Speaker 2: So what's your take? What do you think? Is it 173 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,380 Speaker 2: because Mr Chen's point was that we are great at 174 00:09:09,390 --> 00:09:13,059 Speaker 2: doing stuff. In other words, we can follow instructions quite well. 175 00:09:13,070 --> 00:09:15,669 Speaker 2: We're very efficient. If there's a manual, we'll do it 176 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,119 Speaker 2: pretty well. But creating is a different thing, right? Manifesting 177 00:09:20,130 --> 00:09:20,939 Speaker 2: being a 178 00:09:21,409 --> 00:09:24,130 Speaker 2: a visionary is a different, the instruction is not there. 179 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: We do not know how to assemble the do you 180 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: even agree. I'll be a little bit controversial. I think 181 00:09:30,010 --> 00:09:32,159 Speaker 2: in the early days, maybe now it's still true. I 182 00:09:32,169 --> 00:09:34,619 Speaker 2: do not know if there is the sentiment, there is 183 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:39,229 Speaker 2: a belief that Singaporeans are not as innovative. I actually disagree. 184 00:09:39,239 --> 00:09:41,820 Speaker 2: Like even what, 30 years ago, I met a lot 185 00:09:41,830 --> 00:09:43,340 Speaker 2: of Singaporeans who are very 186 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:48,090 Speaker 2: innovative, very creative. I think the challenge is our culture 187 00:09:48,099 --> 00:09:51,510 Speaker 2: is our, where the market is, the culture. As in 188 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,059 Speaker 2: we are very risk averse. We don't play to win. 189 00:09:55,289 --> 00:09:58,979 Speaker 2: We always play not to lose. So so there's a 190 00:09:58,989 --> 00:10:02,109 Speaker 2: subtle difference here. Play to win. You take a lot 191 00:10:02,119 --> 00:10:04,709 Speaker 2: more risk play not to lose. 192 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,530 Speaker 2: You play safe, right? Even growing up, we almost use 193 00:10:09,539 --> 00:10:12,780 Speaker 2: it as a joke. There's a Hokkien word Jiangsu, like 194 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 2: all culture. I know Yu, right? Yu is, I'm worried 195 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:16,820 Speaker 2: about failure. 196 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:20,049 Speaker 2: There's also a Chinese saying that say failure is the 197 00:10:20,059 --> 00:10:23,390 Speaker 2: mother of success, right? You have to fail first, but 198 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,590 Speaker 2: somehow we are taught not to lose. And that is 199 00:10:26,599 --> 00:10:29,450 Speaker 2: pretty sad. Of course, there are some people who break 200 00:10:29,460 --> 00:10:31,950 Speaker 2: out of that. But in in large sense, we are 201 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,469 Speaker 2: very much more towards pretty standard way of living and 202 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:38,590 Speaker 2: decision making. 203 00:10:38,849 --> 00:10:41,429 Speaker 2: We are very boxed in. So that's one I think 204 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,299 Speaker 2: it's a culture. The other one I say is market, 205 00:10:44,479 --> 00:10:46,010 Speaker 2: what I mean? My market is at least in A 206 00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:49,089 Speaker 2: B to B and B to C business because of 207 00:10:49,099 --> 00:10:54,299 Speaker 2: the Gasu culture even corporation in Singapore. Very large one 208 00:10:54,309 --> 00:10:57,289 Speaker 2: who has the money to spend on the smaller company 209 00:10:57,299 --> 00:10:58,309 Speaker 2: are not willing to. 210 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: They will say who else have worked with you first. 211 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:04,010 Speaker 2: They will not want to be the first guinea pig. 212 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:08,098 Speaker 2: Because what if you fail? Like how can I trust you? 213 00:11:08,109 --> 00:11:11,539 Speaker 2: So if you have some big names behind you, it's 214 00:11:11,549 --> 00:11:13,979 Speaker 2: easier for them to make a choice. There's always a 215 00:11:13,989 --> 00:11:17,260 Speaker 2: saying that pick the big guy, you never get fired. 216 00:11:17,539 --> 00:11:20,770 Speaker 2: You really go back to the culture of gas in 217 00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:24,059 Speaker 2: a very much innovative and market competitive environment 218 00:11:24,419 --> 00:11:28,119 Speaker 2: is we call that there is a technology adoption curve 219 00:11:28,130 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: where the first phase of the users are more innovators 220 00:11:32,010 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: than early adopters. The early majority, then late majority, late 221 00:11:36,289 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: majority is basically mainstream. And then the Lager, right? Where 222 00:11:40,010 --> 00:11:42,598 Speaker 2: if you look at the adoption curve where the Singapore 223 00:11:42,609 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 2: company fall in that adoption curve, most likely late majority 224 00:11:48,479 --> 00:11:52,809 Speaker 2: than early adopters. Like when iphone was out, like what 225 00:11:52,820 --> 00:11:58,909 Speaker 2: in 22,009, I remember 2008, 29 iphone, like first version 226 00:11:59,309 --> 00:12:04,750 Speaker 2: where the whole world was using Blackberry and how many 227 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:05,969 Speaker 2: iphone users are there? 228 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:09,609 Speaker 2: And how quickly does it take iphone to basically get 229 00:12:09,619 --> 00:12:13,309 Speaker 2: into the mainstream? Right? So I think every new technology 230 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,119 Speaker 2: that we are seeing go through that technology adoption curve. 231 00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:19,770 Speaker 2: And I think if the environment that we live in 232 00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:23,869 Speaker 2: the market that we live in, not encouraging early adopters, 233 00:12:24,469 --> 00:12:28,169 Speaker 2: entrepreneur and leaders, business leaders are always going to face 234 00:12:28,179 --> 00:12:30,890 Speaker 2: with this challenge. So, so I say one is the 235 00:12:31,150 --> 00:12:33,039 Speaker 2: risk aversion and the other one is the market that 236 00:12:33,049 --> 00:12:36,729 Speaker 2: we live in recently. I heard something interesting which is 237 00:12:37,219 --> 00:12:42,369 Speaker 2: it's very hard to change an entire maybe several generations mindset, right? 238 00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:47,650 Speaker 2: Because our generation, Adrian parents, your generation, it was younger 239 00:12:47,659 --> 00:12:48,090 Speaker 2: than me. 240 00:12:48,409 --> 00:12:52,309 Speaker 2: They want their kids to have a certain predictable path 241 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,590 Speaker 2: in life. To be a scholar is to hit the 242 00:12:55,599 --> 00:13:01,210 Speaker 2: a game already. But to shift this mindset, it's literally 243 00:13:01,219 --> 00:13:04,789 Speaker 2: like to carry an elephant. So people say forget it, 244 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:08,589 Speaker 2: just embrace that. And then we will be the best 245 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:11,390 Speaker 2: late majority that we can 246 00:13:11,729 --> 00:13:14,010 Speaker 2: and make as much money as we can like at 247 00:13:14,020 --> 00:13:16,390 Speaker 2: that level, which is why you would drive a lot 248 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:21,489 Speaker 2: of Singaporean to start a company outside of Singapore and 249 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:25,189 Speaker 2: then bring the company back home when the company is 250 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,909 Speaker 2: ready to be back home. This year is 13 years old. 251 00:13:27,919 --> 00:13:30,579 Speaker 2: And I've been looking at, when can I actually take 252 00:13:30,590 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: the company home? So we started 11 months ago, a 253 00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:37,069 Speaker 2: year ago, the Singapore office. You mean the Singapore office here? Right? 254 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,109 Speaker 2: Because yeah, to start a business here is 255 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:43,340 Speaker 2: not easy. It's tough for B to B business plan 256 00:13:44,010 --> 00:13:46,020 Speaker 2: B to C. I'm not an expert in it. I 257 00:13:46,030 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: could guess similar challenges but at least B to C 258 00:13:48,969 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: the consumer market is vast and the buying decision is 259 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,709 Speaker 2: on every single consumer. So it's a very different problem. 260 00:13:57,369 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: Do you think we can change the Ku mentality anytime soon? 261 00:14:02,099 --> 00:14:05,150 Speaker 2: Like you say, it's a generation thing, I think it 262 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 2: take generation to change. But I also see like the 263 00:14:08,690 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 2: new leadership are encouraging a lot of taking risk and 264 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:16,780 Speaker 2: the school system has changed to saying that it's ok 265 00:14:16,789 --> 00:14:19,140 Speaker 2: not to go to university, you can go to, what 266 00:14:19,150 --> 00:14:24,650 Speaker 2: do you call that ite or something? Very high skilled trade. 267 00:14:24,809 --> 00:14:25,919 Speaker 2: Now is on 268 00:14:26,005 --> 00:14:29,534 Speaker 2: very high demand, more so than a degree holder. At 269 00:14:29,544 --> 00:14:33,265 Speaker 2: least our people analytics show that because there are way 270 00:14:33,275 --> 00:14:38,625 Speaker 2: less plumber, electrician trades than say a degree in engineering. 271 00:14:38,965 --> 00:14:42,284 Speaker 2: Your data shows that I recently a plumber came to 272 00:14:42,294 --> 00:14:45,275 Speaker 2: my house and he was this young kid and I 273 00:14:45,284 --> 00:14:47,905 Speaker 2: asked him, I said, how come you're doing this? He's 274 00:14:47,914 --> 00:14:50,794 Speaker 2: working for his, his uncle. And he says, 275 00:14:51,109 --> 00:14:54,849 Speaker 2: because I cannot study LA. So I do like, but 276 00:14:54,859 --> 00:14:57,530 Speaker 2: you are making good money. And he said, yeah, very good, 277 00:14:57,859 --> 00:15:01,489 Speaker 2: very good money. So there you are, let's get to 278 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:03,570 Speaker 2: your work and the world of hr tech, right? 279 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,020 Speaker 2: Naturally, you deal with data. It's natural for you to 280 00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:09,270 Speaker 2: think that data solves a lot of the current issues 281 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: that we have, especially hr we've had a lot of 282 00:15:12,849 --> 00:15:17,409 Speaker 2: hr people here on this podcast and they always tell us, oh, 283 00:15:17,419 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: it's a very people centric business. We have a lot 284 00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:23,039 Speaker 2: of gut feel a lot of relationship. Where do you 285 00:15:23,049 --> 00:15:25,260 Speaker 2: think data helps where people can't, 286 00:15:26,849 --> 00:15:29,859 Speaker 2: if you look at the practice of hr there's certainly 287 00:15:29,869 --> 00:15:32,229 Speaker 2: a part of it. We call it business partner that 288 00:15:32,239 --> 00:15:37,309 Speaker 2: is very much relationship driven, emotional driven. It's all about people. Yeah. 289 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,460 Speaker 2: But so let's just call it the arts of hr, right. 290 00:15:40,469 --> 00:15:44,010 Speaker 2: We don't have the debate that exist. It is. But 291 00:15:44,020 --> 00:15:46,750 Speaker 2: then let's talk about the science of hr as in 292 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: like on the more process, like more employee workflow in 293 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,109 Speaker 2: any organization need to recruit, 294 00:15:54,609 --> 00:15:58,619 Speaker 2: need to on board, need to performance management need to 295 00:15:58,630 --> 00:16:02,729 Speaker 2: do compensation, review, need to eventually off boarding them, need 296 00:16:02,739 --> 00:16:06,429 Speaker 2: to train them, right? All these different systems that in 297 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 2: place to look at people, processes in any organizations are 298 00:16:11,450 --> 00:16:15,479 Speaker 2: task orientated, those are not people wishy washy feeling. This 299 00:16:15,489 --> 00:16:17,450 Speaker 2: is like you have a task, you have to finish 300 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:17,909 Speaker 2: the task 301 00:16:18,260 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: that is also part of the hr responsibility, right? You 302 00:16:21,330 --> 00:16:25,229 Speaker 2: can call it administrative work, but administrative work actually take out. 303 00:16:25,619 --> 00:16:27,750 Speaker 2: I don't know if you were to break it down. 304 00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:31,059 Speaker 2: I'm just making a number majority like so muscle is 305 00:16:31,070 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: if you have a 8020 I would say that more 306 00:16:33,929 --> 00:16:36,539 Speaker 2: hr professional will say that they consume most of the 307 00:16:36,549 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: time on administrative than the time that they need to 308 00:16:38,969 --> 00:16:40,169 Speaker 2: spend with people on that. 309 00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:44,500 Speaker 2: The size of hr is where we focus our energy on. 310 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:47,989 Speaker 2: We are saying that there's a better way to help 311 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,510 Speaker 2: and enable your organization by understanding the people inside and 312 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,349 Speaker 2: how the people are impacting the business, not doing the 313 00:16:56,359 --> 00:16:58,989 Speaker 2: task for the sake of doing it, but actually doing 314 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,830 Speaker 2: it that have a business goal behind. So it's not 315 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,900 Speaker 2: about just reporting about how many people I have, how 316 00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:09,989 Speaker 2: many people quit, how many people we hire 317 00:17:10,369 --> 00:17:14,270 Speaker 2: because those are just monitoring. But it's really about creating 318 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,619 Speaker 2: impact on the business, meaningful impact. Like say, I know 319 00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 2: who I need to go higher. I know who I 320 00:17:20,969 --> 00:17:24,699 Speaker 2: need to retain. I know who I need to go fire, right? 321 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,410 Speaker 2: You would also know which part of the organization is 322 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:29,988 Speaker 2: at risk, right? Yes. 323 00:17:30,479 --> 00:17:33,969 Speaker 2: Where are the vulnerable points? Exactly who is bleeding? A 324 00:17:33,979 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 2: lot of people who is a bad manager, like we 325 00:17:38,170 --> 00:17:41,599 Speaker 2: all say that people work for the manager than a company, 326 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,140 Speaker 2: you have a good manager, you retain your employee and 327 00:17:45,150 --> 00:17:48,750 Speaker 2: then the company that bleed talent and why that can 328 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,349 Speaker 2: people actually truly understand why? And can people predict 329 00:17:51,949 --> 00:17:55,089 Speaker 2: not just can predict who's going to leave, who's going 330 00:17:55,099 --> 00:17:58,790 Speaker 2: to get promoted? You'll be surprised by how much information 331 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,489 Speaker 2: they are already out there hidden in the sea of 332 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:06,929 Speaker 2: data just not been like explore. So if you start digging, 333 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:09,739 Speaker 2: you get a lot of insight and that's essentially what 334 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:13,329 Speaker 2: VIS do is to say that we have a software, 335 00:18:13,579 --> 00:18:16,449 Speaker 2: our superpower is to connect all this 336 00:18:16,969 --> 00:18:20,329 Speaker 2: data asset out there in various system. In organization where 337 00:18:20,369 --> 00:18:24,909 Speaker 2: you have people data footprint, we bring it together, arrange 338 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,109 Speaker 2: it in some form and shape that. Now we can 339 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,180 Speaker 2: help you to ask very intelligent questions. And now you 340 00:18:30,189 --> 00:18:32,389 Speaker 2: have the insight, then you can say, OK, 341 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:36,300 Speaker 2: I want to practice the arts of hr at least 342 00:18:36,310 --> 00:18:40,020 Speaker 2: I have some data to support my conversation. So it's 343 00:18:40,030 --> 00:18:43,659 Speaker 2: grounded with facts, it is grounded, right? So the science 344 00:18:43,670 --> 00:18:48,060 Speaker 2: actually feeds the art in a way it has to 345 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:52,109 Speaker 2: that makes sense, especially for big organizations. If a hr 346 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,389 Speaker 2: organization just practice wishy washy hr which is all arts 347 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 2: and no science, 348 00:18:57,310 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 2: that's when business stop trusting that, right? A lot of 349 00:19:00,689 --> 00:19:03,438 Speaker 2: the business leader will say go away because you're not 350 00:19:03,609 --> 00:19:06,218 Speaker 2: adding value to me. Yeah, you need to add value 351 00:19:06,229 --> 00:19:09,310 Speaker 2: by getting the signs to help you with the arts 352 00:19:09,319 --> 00:19:12,069 Speaker 2: of hr and like you pointed out, especially in a 353 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: bigger organization, how much time does a single hr person has? Right? 354 00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:20,469 Speaker 2: If you have 10 downline, 20 departments to work with 355 00:19:20,479 --> 00:19:22,500 Speaker 2: you and if you're not in the office every day, 356 00:19:22,510 --> 00:19:25,489 Speaker 2: you can't even see stuff. I'm just curious, for example, 357 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,250 Speaker 2: we do Exit interviews a lot for people who quit, right? 358 00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:33,379 Speaker 2: You're familiar with that. So I'm thinking at some point, 359 00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:38,218 Speaker 2: this kind of thing can be easily captured data, right? 360 00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:40,540 Speaker 2: And then you can turn out the report and give 361 00:19:40,550 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: you some of the key insights as to what this 362 00:19:43,369 --> 00:19:44,339 Speaker 2: person said. 363 00:19:44,729 --> 00:19:47,619 Speaker 2: What was the feedback, et cetera. And then you map 364 00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:50,790 Speaker 2: all your exit interviews. You have a good picture, right? 365 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:54,229 Speaker 2: Does that? And what commonly done with hr department will 366 00:19:54,239 --> 00:19:57,750 Speaker 2: always say that let's run an employee survey, let's run 367 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,180 Speaker 2: another survey, right? You have all that stuff 368 00:20:00,290 --> 00:20:02,389 Speaker 2: survey. But then what do you do with the survey 369 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,139 Speaker 2: data is what do you do with that data after that? 370 00:20:05,199 --> 00:20:08,198 Speaker 2: So that's always my biggest question. OK. Now that you 371 00:20:08,209 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: have the data, so you share with us like, don't share, 372 00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: what did you guys find out? We just want to 373 00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: check off that. We've done the survey. That's about it. 374 00:20:15,989 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: I like to move on to a piece that you 375 00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:21,430 Speaker 2: actually wrote for Fast Company where you argue for greater 376 00:20:21,439 --> 00:20:24,969 Speaker 2: transparency of pay. Something that we've actually talked about on 377 00:20:24,979 --> 00:20:26,229 Speaker 2: this podcast before, 378 00:20:26,489 --> 00:20:28,979 Speaker 2: but at least within the Singapore context, salaries is always 379 00:20:28,989 --> 00:20:34,339 Speaker 2: a touchy subject. Even recently. I think they were announcement 380 00:20:34,349 --> 00:20:38,260 Speaker 2: where listed company CEO have to be public about their salary. 381 00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:40,629 Speaker 2: And there are a lot of debates in your opinion. 382 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,219 Speaker 2: Why does transparency make things better and beyond that? What 383 00:20:44,229 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 2: are the old fashioned hr practices in your opinion? Do 384 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:49,430 Speaker 2: you think needs to go? I think we are living 385 00:20:49,439 --> 00:20:51,139 Speaker 2: in a world these days. There are a lot of 386 00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:55,069 Speaker 2: mistrust that are happening between citizen and governments, 387 00:20:55,449 --> 00:20:59,629 Speaker 2: employee and employer. I'm, I'm mostly talking about America and 388 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,729 Speaker 2: Canadian context, right? Even the Europe context, I do not 389 00:21:02,739 --> 00:21:06,630 Speaker 2: know enough of this region to actually have opinion yet. 390 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,930 Speaker 2: But I would suspect maybe same challenges, maybe less because 391 00:21:10,939 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: I think that in many ways over here, the government 392 00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:17,390 Speaker 2: is pretty well run in the west, especially in us, 393 00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:23,319 Speaker 2: there's a lot of mistrust that's happening. So anything that 394 00:21:23,329 --> 00:21:27,010 Speaker 2: can actually help to remove this mistrust is a good thing. 395 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:31,079 Speaker 2: So Bill get passed on. Hey, I want transparency on 396 00:21:31,089 --> 00:21:34,709 Speaker 2: how you guys make decisions. So it's actually turning into law. 397 00:21:34,719 --> 00:21:37,839 Speaker 2: So employers have no choice but to actually share how 398 00:21:37,849 --> 00:21:41,540 Speaker 2: to actually make decisions on salary rangers, which is something 399 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: that again, software can help. And the danger thing about 400 00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:47,060 Speaker 2: what software can do is if you cannot say that, 401 00:21:47,069 --> 00:21:47,790 Speaker 2: I don't know 402 00:21:48,739 --> 00:21:50,890 Speaker 2: you want the truth. Can you handle the truth? And 403 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 2: that's what the people are looking for is that pay transparency. 404 00:21:55,010 --> 00:22:00,180 Speaker 2: So now pay transparency does not necessarily means every person salary, 405 00:22:00,189 --> 00:22:02,790 Speaker 2: how much you're making. I think there is a misunderstanding 406 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,310 Speaker 2: to think that pay transparency means that we publish salary 407 00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:09,349 Speaker 2: for every executive, every employee out there. It's not about that. 408 00:22:09,579 --> 00:22:13,180 Speaker 2: It is really about when you're thinking about compensating a 409 00:22:13,189 --> 00:22:16,810 Speaker 2: certain role and skill set, what is the model behind? 410 00:22:16,819 --> 00:22:19,819 Speaker 2: Why certain role get paid this much and certain role 411 00:22:19,829 --> 00:22:22,319 Speaker 2: get paid that much? Like why do we pay plumber 412 00:22:22,329 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 2: X dollar per hour and an engineer Y dollars per hour, 413 00:22:26,859 --> 00:22:29,169 Speaker 2: right at the end of the day is economics is 414 00:22:29,180 --> 00:22:33,540 Speaker 2: always about supply demand. So having price transparency or compensation 415 00:22:33,550 --> 00:22:37,010 Speaker 2: transparency is served as a guidance and saying that is 416 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:39,569 Speaker 2: how the model works. That's how we think about it. 417 00:22:39,969 --> 00:22:42,569 Speaker 2: But it doesn't necessarily say that you get paid 418 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,649 Speaker 2: number. So you usually arrange, for example, if you are 419 00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 2: level one software developer, this is your range, your level two, 420 00:22:50,250 --> 00:22:53,770 Speaker 2: that is your range. But so it's about that then 421 00:22:53,780 --> 00:22:57,900 Speaker 2: then actually having very specific on how much person. And 422 00:22:57,910 --> 00:23:00,698 Speaker 2: one of the reason when you have that range, you 423 00:23:00,709 --> 00:23:04,619 Speaker 2: want to get a delta on who is our range. 424 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:07,389 Speaker 2: And the problem to solve there a lot of time, 425 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,079 Speaker 2: at least in the West is actually about diversity and inclusion. 426 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,739 Speaker 2: So gender, 427 00:23:13,229 --> 00:23:16,219 Speaker 2: do you pay men more than women, different ethnicity? Do 428 00:23:16,229 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: you pay certain ethnicity more than the others? So those 429 00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:22,709 Speaker 2: the report that the authority want to know it is 430 00:23:22,719 --> 00:23:25,900 Speaker 2: a touchy subject, but you're right. It's not as if 431 00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:28,369 Speaker 2: I want to know like how much my boss makes. 432 00:23:28,380 --> 00:23:31,189 Speaker 2: I don't really care. But if I were to look 433 00:23:31,199 --> 00:23:33,889 Speaker 2: for a job in a certain company, I want to 434 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:34,530 Speaker 2: know what 435 00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:39,849 Speaker 2: you're paying me. Is it based on just some arbitrary things, 436 00:23:39,859 --> 00:23:44,689 Speaker 2: some historical things, some last drawn salary or you've got 437 00:23:44,699 --> 00:23:49,659 Speaker 2: a proper model, maybe just to wrap things up. So, 438 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:51,839 Speaker 2: Physio has been recognized as one of the best places 439 00:23:51,849 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: to work in Canada. And now you guys have a 440 00:23:54,130 --> 00:23:57,810 Speaker 2: team of over 500 employees, right? So in a sense 441 00:23:57,819 --> 00:24:00,900 Speaker 2: because you're in the business of hr you can practice 442 00:24:00,910 --> 00:24:03,410 Speaker 2: what you preach in helping companies do better. 443 00:24:03,859 --> 00:24:08,079 Speaker 2: What do you think having founded and let this company 444 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:12,250 Speaker 2: would just say like two or three fundamental things that 445 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:15,129 Speaker 2: leaders need to take care of in terms of their 446 00:24:15,140 --> 00:24:18,458 Speaker 2: people so that their business can thrive. I always say 447 00:24:18,469 --> 00:24:21,390 Speaker 2: that you can always help hr become better, hr and manager, 448 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 2: become better manager or employee, become better employee. What problem 449 00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:25,579 Speaker 2: are we solving for? 450 00:24:25,939 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: This is about me building the business. I would say 451 00:24:28,890 --> 00:24:32,649 Speaker 2: first thing is is be human. First is always about 452 00:24:32,660 --> 00:24:37,270 Speaker 2: the people side as in because people is what makes 453 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:42,629 Speaker 2: things happen, not technology, not processes. I would say that 454 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,609 Speaker 2: in the absence of technology of processes, good people always 455 00:24:45,619 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 2: fill the gap, right? So people is very important. So 456 00:24:50,449 --> 00:24:53,060 Speaker 2: to build a team that can strive with you, I 457 00:24:53,069 --> 00:24:55,510 Speaker 2: would say is people and culture is number one to me, 458 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,060 Speaker 2: you need to hire the right people, retain the right 459 00:24:58,069 --> 00:25:00,790 Speaker 2: people and get rid of the wrong people. I will 460 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,469 Speaker 2: keep saying that because people like do not like to 461 00:25:03,479 --> 00:25:08,250 Speaker 2: talk about getting real people. And I feel like somebody 462 00:25:08,260 --> 00:25:11,619 Speaker 2: is a poison in a culture. It's not a team player, 463 00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:14,329 Speaker 2: it's not in the journey with you. You have to 464 00:25:14,339 --> 00:25:17,140 Speaker 2: do something about it, not fixing a low performance is 465 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:19,188 Speaker 2: a crime, right? At this year, we talk about 466 00:25:19,589 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: mission experience, pay, whether you attach to the mission or 467 00:25:23,050 --> 00:25:26,239 Speaker 2: you attach to experience or you attach to pay. So 468 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 2: mission is we have a purpose and that is what 469 00:25:29,449 --> 00:25:31,589 Speaker 2: we do do we want to drive towards that purpose? 470 00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: Are we align on our kind of flat mission? 471 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,819 Speaker 2: The second is experience, experience is I want to is 472 00:25:36,829 --> 00:25:39,369 Speaker 2: about learning and development. I'm a fresh grad, I want 473 00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:41,630 Speaker 2: to learn or I want to learn how to build 474 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,369 Speaker 2: the business to the next level and then pay is pay, right? 475 00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:47,099 Speaker 2: People who are really just attach to pay usually doesn't 476 00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:50,130 Speaker 2: work out well in a start up environment, right? You 477 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:52,670 Speaker 2: will find that most of the start up team members, 478 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:52,869 Speaker 2: they are 479 00:25:52,964 --> 00:25:56,265 Speaker 2: very much attached to the first two mission and experience 480 00:25:56,275 --> 00:25:59,073 Speaker 2: the learning aspect of it. This is a long answer 481 00:25:59,084 --> 00:26:02,044 Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, because I wanted to query you 482 00:26:02,055 --> 00:26:06,185 Speaker 2: about the your right people. So what qualities does a 483 00:26:06,194 --> 00:26:09,795 Speaker 2: right person have the right person are the people who 484 00:26:09,805 --> 00:26:13,125 Speaker 2: leave your values and your culture and you have to 485 00:26:13,135 --> 00:26:16,145 Speaker 2: first start your business with what value and culture you 486 00:26:16,155 --> 00:26:18,964 Speaker 2: want it to be right? This year. For example, our 487 00:26:18,974 --> 00:26:21,224 Speaker 2: first line is we play to win. 488 00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:25,569 Speaker 2: If you don't play to win, you're unlikely going to 489 00:26:25,579 --> 00:26:28,630 Speaker 2: fit our culture. So we are scrappy, play to win. 490 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,010 Speaker 2: We are scrappy. We don't wait for things to happen. 491 00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:36,900 Speaker 2: We wear multiple hats, we go all in all we 492 00:26:36,910 --> 00:26:41,228 Speaker 2: don't play defense, so we draw our sleeve and we 493 00:26:41,239 --> 00:26:45,949 Speaker 2: do make things happen. Our managers are also players. It's 494 00:26:45,959 --> 00:26:48,859 Speaker 2: a more of an American term is a player coach 495 00:26:49,959 --> 00:26:52,938 Speaker 2: like you, you coach and, but you play too so 496 00:26:52,949 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: you don't just coach and don't play. So it's like 497 00:26:55,130 --> 00:26:58,890 Speaker 2: your hands always dirty. You're in the game even, I'm 498 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:01,390 Speaker 2: in the game all the time too. So I get 499 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,969 Speaker 2: my hand pretty dirty. I really like that recently. We 500 00:27:03,979 --> 00:27:06,729 Speaker 2: had this long conversation at a course that I was 501 00:27:06,739 --> 00:27:12,310 Speaker 2: taking about whether a leader should still get his hands dirty, right? 502 00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:15,599 Speaker 2: Should he be doing the stuff that he leaves his 503 00:27:15,609 --> 00:27:16,139 Speaker 2: team to do? 504 00:27:16,339 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 2: Some people didn't think so. Some people felt that once 505 00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:22,290 Speaker 2: you've reached a certain status, you shouldn't be doing the 506 00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:25,569 Speaker 2: small things. But I'm like, you should always be doing 507 00:27:25,579 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: the small things. I don't know, 100%. Actually, I will 508 00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:30,550 Speaker 2: share these things. I won't mention names. I've seen it 509 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,150 Speaker 2: quite a number of times in Singapore already. There is 510 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,349 Speaker 2: a lot of the Singapore company manager. It is meet 511 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: management or even starting a meet management and then starting 512 00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 2: to get the executive, very senior people 513 00:27:42,910 --> 00:27:46,430 Speaker 2: who used to say was an engineer used to get 514 00:27:46,439 --> 00:27:50,989 Speaker 2: their hand very dirty, really our touch of technology. So 515 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 2: they lose the trade that they started off in their career. Right? 516 00:27:54,790 --> 00:27:57,389 Speaker 2: Me as a CEO, I still read and write code 517 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,130 Speaker 2: just to make sure that in touch with the technology 518 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 2: and this is what will happen if you are both 519 00:28:03,729 --> 00:28:06,380 Speaker 2: coach and player and not just coach. And I think 520 00:28:06,390 --> 00:28:09,109 Speaker 2: it will be too bad too. It's a shame that 521 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,250 Speaker 2: very good skills get lost when you become a management. 522 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:16,319 Speaker 2: And after all, I always say that management is overhead, right? 523 00:28:16,329 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: Why do you need management? 524 00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: Especially when you have GP T? Yeah. So I think 525 00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 2: that was a really insightful and inspiring conversation with Ryan Wong, 526 00:28:26,170 --> 00:28:29,149 Speaker 2: the CEO of it's not often that we get to 527 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 2: speak with someone who started from scratch and eventually became 528 00:28:33,010 --> 00:28:35,569 Speaker 2: a unicorn company. So we've learned a lot from his stories, 529 00:28:35,579 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 2: his vision and future of hr and data analytics. 530 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,790 Speaker 2: I think it's also a good example of not limiting 531 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,209 Speaker 2: yourself to a belief system or what others may say otherwise. 532 00:28:45,219 --> 00:28:47,579 Speaker 2: And that's how we can go ahead, achieve great things 533 00:28:47,589 --> 00:28:49,489 Speaker 2: on the global stage. And one of the key takeaway 534 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,670 Speaker 2: I think is really you got to play offense, not 535 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,420 Speaker 2: just food defense, like what Singapore did with South Korea 536 00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:59,324 Speaker 2: recently, just food defense. What can you expect from food defense? OK. 537 00:28:59,334 --> 00:29:03,155 Speaker 2: But the state of Singapore football is a whole other podcast. OK. 538 00:29:03,165 --> 00:29:07,015 Speaker 2: So my take away and I really, it's very affirming 539 00:29:07,025 --> 00:29:10,045 Speaker 2: to me because these are my personal views as well 540 00:29:10,204 --> 00:29:15,454 Speaker 2: about taking risk. And I always say that I think 541 00:29:15,464 --> 00:29:18,964 Speaker 2: we have so much to gain, especially as parents if 542 00:29:18,974 --> 00:29:23,224 Speaker 2: we allow our kids to just do their own thing 543 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,349 Speaker 2: and not to prescribe something for them just because it 544 00:29:27,359 --> 00:29:30,709 Speaker 2: worked for me. I do hope that day comes a 545 00:29:30,719 --> 00:29:33,540 Speaker 2: little bit sooner than later so that we will have 546 00:29:33,550 --> 00:29:37,319 Speaker 2: more Singaporean Os like Ryan here. Thank you so much 547 00:29:37,329 --> 00:29:40,599 Speaker 2: for joining us, Ryan on this podcast. Thank you for 548 00:29:40,609 --> 00:29:44,589 Speaker 2: having me. Thanks to everyone, our listeners for sticking with us. 549 00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:47,219 Speaker 2: Thanks to the CNA podcast team for all their help 550 00:29:47,229 --> 00:29:50,170 Speaker 2: in producing this episode. So we meet next, have a 551 00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:51,540 Speaker 2: productive work week.