1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:05,090 --> 00:00:07,380 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of Heart of 3 00:00:07,389 --> 00:00:09,930 Speaker 2: The Matter with me, Steven Chia. Now, today we tackle 4 00:00:09,939 --> 00:00:13,510 Speaker 2: a difficult but pressing issue child abuse in the last 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,030 Speaker 2: 10 years, cases in Singapore involving physical sexual abuse or 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,030 Speaker 2: neglect have gone from around 300 cases in 2012 to 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,709 Speaker 2: more than 2000 in 2021. 8 00:00:24,209 --> 00:00:26,940 Speaker 2: And this year alone, several high profile cases have come 9 00:00:26,950 --> 00:00:30,149 Speaker 2: before the court and some of them were very severe 10 00:00:30,159 --> 00:00:34,069 Speaker 2: leading to the child's death. So how do we ensure 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,568 Speaker 2: that our Children remain safe and protected, especially if they 12 00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:41,189 Speaker 2: are in a challenging home environment? That is our discussion 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:41,869 Speaker 2: for today 14 00:00:44,418 --> 00:00:47,650 Speaker 2: and with me, I have so Ying C deputy Manager, 15 00:00:47,659 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 2: Social Care at Melrose Home, which is run by the 16 00:00:50,650 --> 00:00:54,189 Speaker 2: children's Aid society. And Ying Xi spent five years working 17 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: in the child protection service. Hi, everyone. Happy to be here. 18 00:00:57,810 --> 00:01:01,409 Speaker 2: Yogi Warri Muni Sami, senior principal social worker at the 19 00:01:01,419 --> 00:01:04,199 Speaker 2: Ministry of Social and Family Development. She has over 20 20 00:01:04,285 --> 00:01:06,724 Speaker 2: five years of experience in this area and has also 21 00:01:06,735 --> 00:01:09,774 Speaker 2: worked with helping abuse Children and their families. Thank you. 22 00:01:09,785 --> 00:01:12,964 Speaker 2: For having me here today. See, aha, Deputy head of 23 00:01:13,144 --> 00:01:17,393 Speaker 2: Punggol FSC. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Let's start 24 00:01:17,404 --> 00:01:20,434 Speaker 2: talking about the most recent case that was in court. 25 00:01:20,595 --> 00:01:23,324 Speaker 2: It was where a two year old died from abuse 26 00:01:23,334 --> 00:01:27,724 Speaker 2: and neglect. Now, the circumstances were horrifying to say the least. 27 00:01:27,735 --> 00:01:27,985 Speaker 2: But 28 00:01:28,330 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: one big question is how could a child go missing 29 00:01:32,050 --> 00:01:35,370 Speaker 2: for years and sort of go under the radar completely? 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,099 Speaker 2: You you can start for child protection work is very 31 00:01:39,110 --> 00:01:43,750 Speaker 2: complex and also detecting child abuse can get difficult, especially 32 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,830 Speaker 2: when parents sometimes actively choose to conceal, even though we 33 00:01:47,839 --> 00:01:51,050 Speaker 2: do everything that is needed and we make visits, we 34 00:01:51,059 --> 00:01:54,779 Speaker 2: try to engage the parents and all when there's intentional concealing, 35 00:01:54,790 --> 00:01:57,459 Speaker 2: it does make it a challenge to actually see the 36 00:01:57,470 --> 00:01:59,930 Speaker 2: child or spot the child. Right? And I guess because 37 00:01:59,940 --> 00:02:01,419 Speaker 2: compulsory schooling in primary school 38 00:02:01,503 --> 00:02:03,863 Speaker 2: starts only at the age of seven, which means anything 39 00:02:03,874 --> 00:02:07,244 Speaker 2: before that actually can go undetected. Is that right? That's right. 40 00:02:07,583 --> 00:02:09,763 Speaker 2: In nearly all the cases where the Children died though, 41 00:02:09,774 --> 00:02:12,483 Speaker 2: were they known to social workers or to the child 42 00:02:12,494 --> 00:02:15,794 Speaker 2: protection service? Not always, there may have been some agencies 43 00:02:15,804 --> 00:02:18,604 Speaker 2: that are involved and sometimes CPS gets involved at the 44 00:02:18,613 --> 00:02:21,373 Speaker 2: later stage for some cases. So it could be quite 45 00:02:21,383 --> 00:02:24,434 Speaker 2: a mixed group of cases, help us understand when we 46 00:02:24,444 --> 00:02:27,063 Speaker 2: talk about these cases being complex in what way are 47 00:02:27,074 --> 00:02:27,244 Speaker 2: they 48 00:02:27,328 --> 00:02:29,848 Speaker 2: complex? How do you go about addressing a case? Like 49 00:02:29,858 --> 00:02:32,947 Speaker 2: that the thing with child abuse cases is child abuse 50 00:02:32,957 --> 00:02:36,407 Speaker 2: itself can sit in a spectrum in terms of the 51 00:02:36,417 --> 00:02:39,527 Speaker 2: intensity of it, the variations of it and sometimes it's 52 00:02:39,537 --> 00:02:43,697 Speaker 2: a very gray area, especially when it's related to harsh 53 00:02:43,707 --> 00:02:48,306 Speaker 2: physical punishment. So there's a very thin line between discipline 54 00:02:48,317 --> 00:02:53,066 Speaker 2: and abuse. Therefore, we need to take into considerations many things, 55 00:02:53,151 --> 00:02:56,242 Speaker 2: some of which would include what was the intention of 56 00:02:56,251 --> 00:02:58,701 Speaker 2: that act was the frequency that we are looking at 57 00:02:58,712 --> 00:03:01,492 Speaker 2: that these things are taking place. What is the intensity 58 00:03:01,501 --> 00:03:04,501 Speaker 2: of the action itself or even things like are the 59 00:03:04,511 --> 00:03:08,171 Speaker 2: parents and caregivers willing and open to work with systems 60 00:03:08,181 --> 00:03:11,332 Speaker 2: in effecting change or getting the support they need. But 61 00:03:11,341 --> 00:03:13,641 Speaker 2: of course, if we do find out that despite all 62 00:03:13,651 --> 00:03:17,492 Speaker 2: these considerations, there has been a physical injury to the child, 63 00:03:17,542 --> 00:03:18,891 Speaker 2: then it's very clear to 64 00:03:19,065 --> 00:03:20,615 Speaker 2: on the ground that we need to report it to 65 00:03:20,626 --> 00:03:25,245 Speaker 2: systems like CPS while they continue their further assessment investigation. So, 66 00:03:25,255 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 2: so let's assume that that part has been defined and 67 00:03:27,886 --> 00:03:31,686 Speaker 2: they do enter CPS. What happens then initially when we 68 00:03:31,695 --> 00:03:34,595 Speaker 2: receive a case like that, our case officer will gather 69 00:03:34,606 --> 00:03:38,395 Speaker 2: information say ADA refers will get information from Ada and 70 00:03:38,406 --> 00:03:40,886 Speaker 2: other systems so that we get a full picture of 71 00:03:40,895 --> 00:03:43,546 Speaker 2: what is really happening, then we will assess, we will 72 00:03:43,555 --> 00:03:44,746 Speaker 2: also use this structured 73 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: decision making tool, which is actually internationally recognized tool that 74 00:03:49,009 --> 00:03:52,089 Speaker 2: helps us make decisions about whether this case comes to 75 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:54,779 Speaker 2: CPS and we will also look at all the harm 76 00:03:54,789 --> 00:03:57,699 Speaker 2: and so far what has been the immediate danger as 77 00:03:57,710 --> 00:04:00,660 Speaker 2: well as the safety concerns in that case, once the 78 00:04:00,669 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: case has come in, right, and we have decided that 79 00:04:02,529 --> 00:04:04,428 Speaker 2: we do need to continue with the case, then we 80 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,779 Speaker 2: will take on. But there are also times the family 81 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: may be ready to safety plan and continue with the 82 00:04:08,889 --> 00:04:10,539 Speaker 2: community agency, for example, 83 00:04:10,623 --> 00:04:14,524 Speaker 2: the child Protection specialist agency or even in FSC. But 84 00:04:14,533 --> 00:04:17,204 Speaker 2: when it comes to us, that's when we will actually 85 00:04:17,213 --> 00:04:19,924 Speaker 2: meet with all the family members, we will also engage 86 00:04:19,933 --> 00:04:23,674 Speaker 2: professional network and do a detailed safety plan, a safety 87 00:04:23,683 --> 00:04:25,854 Speaker 2: plan that can address all these concerns that why the 88 00:04:25,863 --> 00:04:28,363 Speaker 2: child came to us for. And if the family can 89 00:04:28,373 --> 00:04:31,223 Speaker 2: work closely together, then we are able to then after 90 00:04:31,234 --> 00:04:33,723 Speaker 2: that with safety in place and all we are able 91 00:04:33,734 --> 00:04:36,363 Speaker 2: to then refer to a community agency to continue the work. 92 00:04:36,589 --> 00:04:39,928 Speaker 2: If even with a safety plan, right is not possible, 93 00:04:39,940 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 2: then we will then bring the child into care. 94 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,959 Speaker 2: And sometimes this child may not be able to remain 95 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:47,730 Speaker 2: at home, then the child might actually go into alternative 96 00:04:47,738 --> 00:04:50,579 Speaker 2: care like a children's home, a foster carer. But our 97 00:04:50,589 --> 00:04:53,010 Speaker 2: first choice is of course, skin carer, the family carer. 98 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 2: So that's what happens. So in other words, you really 99 00:04:55,809 --> 00:04:58,459 Speaker 2: try and get a full picture first of the entire 100 00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:03,230 Speaker 2: family situation and the circumstances surrounding it. And then based 101 00:05:03,238 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: on that kind of decide what might be the best 102 00:05:06,049 --> 00:05:09,368 Speaker 2: option for that child. Does that mean that the child 103 00:05:09,380 --> 00:05:11,018 Speaker 2: is still at home during this time? 104 00:05:11,299 --> 00:05:13,549 Speaker 2: So there are two types, right? One where the safety 105 00:05:13,559 --> 00:05:15,970 Speaker 2: plan can be maintained and we can work with the family, 106 00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:18,409 Speaker 2: then the child remains at home. But we do very 107 00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:21,339 Speaker 2: regular sighting together with the community partners. We are actually 108 00:05:21,350 --> 00:05:24,618 Speaker 2: going to also provide interventions during this stage. Some of 109 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:27,409 Speaker 2: the Children might need to be referred for psychological assessment, 110 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:31,559 Speaker 2: psychiatrist and different services. There are also times when because 111 00:05:31,570 --> 00:05:34,170 Speaker 2: the safety concerns are so high and the parent currently 112 00:05:34,178 --> 00:05:37,190 Speaker 2: was unable to ensure safety, then the child will need 113 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,109 Speaker 2: to go out of the family for the time being. 114 00:05:39,119 --> 00:05:39,420 Speaker 2: Then we 115 00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:44,149 Speaker 2: actually exercise C Act as well. What is the Children 116 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: and Young Persons Act, which is the legislation that covers 117 00:05:47,209 --> 00:05:50,670 Speaker 2: our protection of Children and young persons in Singapore. So, 118 00:05:50,730 --> 00:05:53,329 Speaker 2: so you see when the Children come to you that 119 00:05:53,339 --> 00:05:56,029 Speaker 2: probably sounds like they will be in quite devastating circumstances, 120 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,690 Speaker 2: I imagine, right, share with us again, what are some 121 00:05:58,700 --> 00:06:01,559 Speaker 2: of the considerations when these Children come and how do 122 00:06:01,579 --> 00:06:04,169 Speaker 2: you go about caring for them? Residential care is really 123 00:06:04,178 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: the last option whereby there's no available Kim carrier, 124 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,209 Speaker 2: there is no also suitable foster parents. Then you will 125 00:06:11,220 --> 00:06:14,299 Speaker 2: come to the residential care setting often at times. I 126 00:06:14,309 --> 00:06:17,768 Speaker 2: think the adjustment and the grief and also accepting why 127 00:06:17,779 --> 00:06:21,079 Speaker 2: they have to be in a residential care setting for 128 00:06:21,089 --> 00:06:23,609 Speaker 2: the kids. And the youth are actually the most difficult 129 00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:26,519 Speaker 2: because often at times, they will also blame themselves for 130 00:06:26,529 --> 00:06:29,570 Speaker 2: reporting the harm that help them to have to be 131 00:06:29,579 --> 00:06:32,049 Speaker 2: out of the home. And sometimes they may also struggle. 132 00:06:32,059 --> 00:06:34,368 Speaker 2: I'm not the one who did something wrong. So why 133 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:36,238 Speaker 2: do I have to leave home and lose 134 00:06:36,359 --> 00:06:39,859 Speaker 2: freedom in that sense? But I think working with kids 135 00:06:39,869 --> 00:06:42,959 Speaker 2: with traumatized background, we also know that they do need 136 00:06:42,970 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: a more structured and consistent setting to also help them 137 00:06:46,769 --> 00:06:49,459 Speaker 2: in their healing journey. So it's also helping them to 138 00:06:49,470 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 2: journey to be able to understand that this structure and 139 00:06:52,570 --> 00:06:55,260 Speaker 2: routine is actually part of their healing. What are some 140 00:06:55,269 --> 00:06:57,820 Speaker 2: of the ages of the kids in your home? So 141 00:06:57,829 --> 00:07:01,459 Speaker 2: we can actually take kids from 7 to 21 years old. 142 00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: So our youngest one now in Mars Home is eight 143 00:07:04,010 --> 00:07:04,660 Speaker 2: years old 144 00:07:05,149 --> 00:07:08,029 Speaker 2: at eight years old. Wow. And how do you almost 145 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: reconcile the psychology for that child? Who may be asking 146 00:07:11,369 --> 00:07:14,100 Speaker 2: why am I here? Why my parents not here with me? 147 00:07:14,109 --> 00:07:17,589 Speaker 2: Do they actually comprehend and understand the reasoning behind that 148 00:07:17,790 --> 00:07:20,380 Speaker 2: for Children? What we do is sometimes words and pictures 149 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:23,029 Speaker 2: where we actually explain or immediate story on why they 150 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,190 Speaker 2: needed to come into care. 151 00:07:24,459 --> 00:07:26,399 Speaker 2: We also do life story work when the Children are 152 00:07:26,410 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: in children's home so that there's an understanding of what's happening. 153 00:07:29,329 --> 00:07:31,809 Speaker 2: But it is very hard emotionally. That's why you see 154 00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:35,059 Speaker 2: behaviors and all. But we try to attempt to talk 155 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:37,470 Speaker 2: to the child about this narrative. And I asked that 156 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: also because at some point, you are hoping to integrate 157 00:07:41,329 --> 00:07:43,519 Speaker 2: the child back into the family, but the child may 158 00:07:43,529 --> 00:07:44,079 Speaker 2: not even 159 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:48,269 Speaker 2: understand why they left in the beginning. So that's one challenge. 160 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:50,309 Speaker 2: And then when you speak to the families, do they 161 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,130 Speaker 2: also comprehend the reason why their child was taken away? 162 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:54,559 Speaker 2: And 163 00:07:54,790 --> 00:07:57,540 Speaker 2: are they able to come to terms with the steps? 164 00:07:57,549 --> 00:08:00,429 Speaker 2: You are asking of them to change in that sense 165 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,350 Speaker 2: before they can have their child back with them? So 166 00:08:02,359 --> 00:08:04,660 Speaker 2: those are really very good questions. And one of the 167 00:08:04,670 --> 00:08:07,328 Speaker 2: things that in child protection office, what we take the 168 00:08:07,339 --> 00:08:10,859 Speaker 2: approach of partnering for safety, which is really working collaboratively 169 00:08:10,869 --> 00:08:12,910 Speaker 2: with the family. So even if it means having a 170 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,420 Speaker 2: mahjong people on the wall and 171 00:08:14,816 --> 00:08:17,446 Speaker 2: listing the issues, you know, step by step because some 172 00:08:17,455 --> 00:08:20,156 Speaker 2: of our families may not understand things so easily. And 173 00:08:20,165 --> 00:08:22,096 Speaker 2: also plus the fact that they may be very angry 174 00:08:22,105 --> 00:08:23,776 Speaker 2: at the point as well. So it takes a lot 175 00:08:23,786 --> 00:08:26,305 Speaker 2: of attending to their emotions and working with them. At 176 00:08:26,515 --> 00:08:29,996 Speaker 2: that point, you talked about reunification. That's what we always 177 00:08:30,006 --> 00:08:32,825 Speaker 2: work towards. First, we aim to preserve and then we 178 00:08:32,835 --> 00:08:34,755 Speaker 2: work towards as fast as possible that 179 00:08:34,841 --> 00:08:38,231 Speaker 2: unification because the research has shown Children are best at 180 00:08:38,241 --> 00:08:41,611 Speaker 2: home because there's longer term stability as well as their 181 00:08:41,620 --> 00:08:43,770 Speaker 2: overall well being in the long run. So we do 182 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:45,540 Speaker 2: try to aim for that, but we have to help 183 00:08:45,551 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 2: the parents be ready for this. Right. But one has 184 00:08:47,890 --> 00:08:51,901 Speaker 2: to challenge that a little bit because in these recent circumstances, unfortunately, 185 00:08:51,910 --> 00:08:55,421 Speaker 2: being back home wasn't the best thing for them. And 186 00:08:55,431 --> 00:08:57,780 Speaker 2: how do you determine at which point the family is 187 00:08:57,791 --> 00:09:01,401 Speaker 2: actually ready to take a child back? How can you 188 00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:02,020 Speaker 2: be sure 189 00:09:02,799 --> 00:09:05,489 Speaker 2: time when you meet these families also, can you sense 190 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:07,210 Speaker 2: whether they are ready or not? How can you tell 191 00:09:07,219 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: like you rightfully pointed out from the beginning, right? These 192 00:09:10,210 --> 00:09:14,549 Speaker 2: are complicated, complex families and there are many things that 193 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,239 Speaker 2: we take into consideration and of course, the intervention in place, 194 00:09:18,250 --> 00:09:20,159 Speaker 2: the safety plans in place and there's some more 195 00:09:20,380 --> 00:09:25,209 Speaker 2: involved before the reunification process begins. But reality is you 196 00:09:25,219 --> 00:09:28,210 Speaker 2: can never be 100% sure that nothing is going to happen. 197 00:09:28,229 --> 00:09:30,809 Speaker 2: We just have to make sure we have done enough 198 00:09:30,989 --> 00:09:35,099 Speaker 2: to ensure there are enough protective factors in place. The 199 00:09:35,109 --> 00:09:38,049 Speaker 2: parents have enough resources to tap on for support 200 00:09:38,369 --> 00:09:42,059 Speaker 2: because cases are so complicated. Sometimes it takes much longer 201 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:44,820 Speaker 2: than other cases. For example, if the parents themselves were 202 00:09:44,830 --> 00:09:48,140 Speaker 2: from abused childhoods, that is their norm, right? Of how 203 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:50,789 Speaker 2: they grew up and what is their normal family life 204 00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:54,450 Speaker 2: situations and that's how they parent their Children to change. 205 00:09:54,460 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: That narrative takes a lot of time to get that insight. 206 00:09:57,650 --> 00:10:00,250 Speaker 2: I think things are a lot more complicated actually, when 207 00:10:00,260 --> 00:10:03,739 Speaker 2: it's sexual abuse cases, the guilt, the self blame 208 00:10:03,979 --> 00:10:06,659 Speaker 2: that the Children go through that we need to intervene 209 00:10:06,669 --> 00:10:09,239 Speaker 2: and process. And when the child goes back to the family, 210 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: the family willing to accept the child, is there still 211 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 2: fear anxiety. So all these things have been addressed and 212 00:10:15,900 --> 00:10:19,449 Speaker 2: then we start that process of reunification. But of course, 213 00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:22,260 Speaker 2: then there's still monitoring involved so that we can try 214 00:10:22,270 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: as much as we can. But there are also limits 215 00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: to what we can assure. 216 00:10:27,039 --> 00:10:29,789 Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you say enough, that's also hard to 217 00:10:29,799 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: quantify because enough will be different for different families in 218 00:10:32,849 --> 00:10:37,299 Speaker 2: different circumstances. I know there's a guide book counseling, identifying 219 00:10:37,309 --> 00:10:40,010 Speaker 2: certain key areas and basically coming up with a plan 220 00:10:40,020 --> 00:10:43,599 Speaker 2: for the family plan. Yeah, case plan, but you have 221 00:10:43,609 --> 00:10:46,469 Speaker 2: a plan but maybe your plan is not part of 222 00:10:46,479 --> 00:10:49,210 Speaker 2: their plan. Yeah. So that's why I think having a 223 00:10:49,219 --> 00:10:51,469 Speaker 2: family group meeting is very important where we actually have 224 00:10:51,479 --> 00:10:54,809 Speaker 2: all the professionals involved in the case, including kin, as 225 00:10:54,820 --> 00:10:56,070 Speaker 2: well as friends of the family. 226 00:10:56,369 --> 00:11:00,099 Speaker 2: So they are also offering some perspective, also some aunties, 227 00:11:00,109 --> 00:11:02,619 Speaker 2: you know, even a neighbor actually, how important is this 228 00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:06,140 Speaker 2: additional layer of very critical families without social support network, 229 00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:09,309 Speaker 2: there's no safety. So it is very critical that we 230 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,848 Speaker 2: mobilize everyone. There's no way child protection or even the 231 00:11:11,859 --> 00:11:14,630 Speaker 2: committee agencies alone can do enough. Citing in fact, it's 232 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,460 Speaker 2: always the family members who also alert about things that 233 00:11:17,469 --> 00:11:20,309 Speaker 2: are happening, then we can quickly go into support for. 234 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,150 Speaker 2: It is very, very heartbreaking what is 235 00:11:22,372 --> 00:11:25,112 Speaker 2: in these cases. But there are many, many families we 236 00:11:25,122 --> 00:11:28,362 Speaker 2: have reunified where Children are really happy in their homes. 237 00:11:28,372 --> 00:11:31,372 Speaker 2: We attack some of them over 18 months period, things 238 00:11:31,381 --> 00:11:33,682 Speaker 2: have stabilized, some of the kids we have followed up, 239 00:11:33,692 --> 00:11:36,492 Speaker 2: They're doing very well. We should not also move away 240 00:11:36,502 --> 00:11:39,302 Speaker 2: from the intention of having kids back in the family 241 00:11:39,352 --> 00:11:41,681 Speaker 2: where it is safe and the parents are able to care. 242 00:11:42,043 --> 00:11:45,192 Speaker 2: I mean, of course, there's a challenge between being overly conservative. 243 00:11:45,293 --> 00:11:47,953 Speaker 2: And also just in parliament Minister Masago had said how 244 00:11:48,155 --> 00:11:50,986 Speaker 2: child will be monitored for 12 months. So actually is 245 00:11:50,995 --> 00:11:52,895 Speaker 2: this 12 months period a new thing or has it 246 00:11:52,905 --> 00:11:55,995 Speaker 2: always been the standard sort of duration? Basically after a 247 00:11:56,005 --> 00:11:59,574 Speaker 2: child is reunified, right, child protection together with the committee 248 00:11:59,585 --> 00:12:02,976 Speaker 2: agencies will monitor for about 12 months but also depending 249 00:12:02,986 --> 00:12:04,995 Speaker 2: on the needs of the family, there are number that 250 00:12:05,005 --> 00:12:07,616 Speaker 2: might need even two years, you know, then the committee 251 00:12:07,625 --> 00:12:10,515 Speaker 2: agency will support and when the committee agency is supporting, 252 00:12:10,526 --> 00:12:12,656 Speaker 2: we also tell them if there's any issue, they will 253 00:12:12,666 --> 00:12:13,976 Speaker 2: use a cup to and then 254 00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:16,380 Speaker 2: just highlight back to us, then we can go into 255 00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:19,059 Speaker 2: actually address. Yeah. So, so it's not a stipulated period 256 00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:21,780 Speaker 2: of time. It kind of depends on each, roughly it's 257 00:12:21,789 --> 00:12:24,489 Speaker 2: about 12, but it could go more depending on the 258 00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:27,590 Speaker 2: need or some may actually, things are really very stable, 259 00:12:27,599 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 2: then it could be slightly shorter, but it's an average 260 00:12:30,489 --> 00:12:32,728 Speaker 2: of 12. Right. And you see, I mean, when you've 261 00:12:32,739 --> 00:12:35,940 Speaker 2: seen these Children, have you ever felt like certain Children 262 00:12:35,950 --> 00:12:38,609 Speaker 2: should not be returned to their families? Have you ever 263 00:12:38,619 --> 00:12:39,489 Speaker 2: fought against that? 264 00:12:39,739 --> 00:12:43,059 Speaker 2: Even though by the book it says yes, everything seems 265 00:12:43,070 --> 00:12:46,010 Speaker 2: to tick all the boxes but in your intuition, you 266 00:12:46,020 --> 00:12:49,968 Speaker 2: felt otherwise reunification doesn't happen overnight. It could be just 267 00:12:49,979 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 2: a visit first supervised by either care protection officers or 268 00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:56,900 Speaker 2: the home social workers to ensure that the basic safety 269 00:12:56,909 --> 00:13:00,119 Speaker 2: is established. So then after also a period of time, 270 00:13:00,130 --> 00:13:03,530 Speaker 2: then we will actually usually progress to supervise outing, which 271 00:13:03,539 --> 00:13:05,140 Speaker 2: is still like a controlled setting where there is a 272 00:13:05,150 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: professional to ensure that 273 00:13:06,979 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: the parents meet the basic safety indicators before we were 274 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:15,419 Speaker 2: actually progress to unsupervised outings. Then home leave, home leave 275 00:13:15,429 --> 00:13:18,039 Speaker 2: is usually like maybe the child can go back for 276 00:13:18,049 --> 00:13:20,608 Speaker 2: one night. Yeah, with a safety plan in place. So 277 00:13:20,619 --> 00:13:23,239 Speaker 2: like what you just mentioned, that's when the neighbors or 278 00:13:23,250 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: the family, friends, 279 00:13:24,275 --> 00:13:26,334 Speaker 2: our relatives will come in as what we call like 280 00:13:26,344 --> 00:13:29,455 Speaker 2: safe adults. They also help ensure that during home leave 281 00:13:29,465 --> 00:13:31,804 Speaker 2: nothing happens, right? So they just pop in and say 282 00:13:31,815 --> 00:13:35,815 Speaker 2: oh hello and yeah, I see. I see. So after that, 283 00:13:35,825 --> 00:13:39,265 Speaker 2: then it will increase increase. Then move towards reunification. So 284 00:13:39,275 --> 00:13:41,454 Speaker 2: at any point of time, if anything happens, then 285 00:13:41,739 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: the case has to be revealed, whether it's suitable to 286 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: proceed or it has to backtrack all the way to 287 00:13:46,289 --> 00:13:49,238 Speaker 2: ground zero again. So in a way when a child 288 00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: is returned home, they've gone through this entire process. How 289 00:13:52,890 --> 00:13:55,238 Speaker 2: long does that take? Some may take longer? Some may 290 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: be about 12 months, let's say, or some may 291 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,580 Speaker 2: actually take a few years because the parent really struggle 292 00:14:00,590 --> 00:14:03,059 Speaker 2: to actually meet all their areas or even when the 293 00:14:03,070 --> 00:14:05,359 Speaker 2: child went back home, even for like overnight and the 294 00:14:05,369 --> 00:14:07,419 Speaker 2: parents struggle. So we give a little bit more time 295 00:14:07,510 --> 00:14:10,500 Speaker 2: so that they are ready. Yeah, during that process, it 296 00:14:10,510 --> 00:14:13,380 Speaker 2: doesn't automatically mean that if they pass each stage, so 297 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:13,859 Speaker 2: to speak, 298 00:14:14,169 --> 00:14:15,919 Speaker 2: that they will get the child back, right? Have there 299 00:14:15,929 --> 00:14:19,229 Speaker 2: been cases where you've reversed the decision? And yes. So 300 00:14:19,239 --> 00:14:21,950 Speaker 2: while Children have been going home for home visits, you know, 301 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,609 Speaker 2: and staying on the weekend and then a sudden family 302 00:14:24,619 --> 00:14:27,150 Speaker 2: violence incident happened hasn't happened all this while and then 303 00:14:27,159 --> 00:14:29,919 Speaker 2: suddenly happened, then we will definitely review the case and 304 00:14:29,929 --> 00:14:33,169 Speaker 2: we had to retract back. Ok. So when you heard 305 00:14:33,179 --> 00:14:36,229 Speaker 2: of these recent cases, how would that make the social 306 00:14:36,239 --> 00:14:39,669 Speaker 2: worker or the CPS officer dealing with them feel did 307 00:14:39,679 --> 00:14:42,460 Speaker 2: they feel like they had done everything that was supposed 308 00:14:42,469 --> 00:14:43,710 Speaker 2: to be done? But yet 309 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: this one child fell through the cracks being in CPS generally, 310 00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:52,679 Speaker 2: everybody's effort is to prevent any kind of child abuse 311 00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:56,609 Speaker 2: or to prevent any kind of recurrence. But when something 312 00:14:56,619 --> 00:14:59,799 Speaker 2: like this happens, it is a huge shock because sometimes 313 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,630 Speaker 2: everything has been in place, for example, the unification and 314 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,119 Speaker 2: all and you've done really everything. And then after that, 315 00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: then suddenly an occurrence like 316 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,900 Speaker 2: this happened and you have tried everything to prevent but couldn't, 317 00:15:09,909 --> 00:15:12,599 Speaker 2: then definitely you will feel a lot of sadness, guilt 318 00:15:12,609 --> 00:15:15,419 Speaker 2: and also can feel very traumatized by the event. Then 319 00:15:15,429 --> 00:15:18,070 Speaker 2: we are also reviewing together all decisions in child protection 320 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,219 Speaker 2: are actually not made by one worker. As I said, 321 00:15:20,380 --> 00:15:23,469 Speaker 2: there's a structured decision making tool, there's a supervisor. So 322 00:15:23,479 --> 00:15:27,460 Speaker 2: review platforms where we actually review cases. So we actually 323 00:15:27,469 --> 00:15:29,659 Speaker 2: debrief together about what has happened. 324 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,109 Speaker 2: Hello, my name is Steve LA and I'm Theresa Tang 325 00:15:36,119 --> 00:15:39,010 Speaker 2: and we are the hosts of CN A correspondent, a 326 00:15:39,020 --> 00:15:41,929 Speaker 2: podcast that takes you to the heart of the work 327 00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:46,219 Speaker 2: our correspondents do across the globe from China's COVID response 328 00:15:46,229 --> 00:15:49,090 Speaker 2: to the Child Care Center massacre in Thailand, 329 00:15:49,695 --> 00:15:52,224 Speaker 2: the fall of Najib Razak to the rise of Anwar 330 00:15:52,234 --> 00:15:55,825 Speaker 2: Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, we speak to the people 331 00:15:55,835 --> 00:15:58,715 Speaker 2: at the reporting front lines. So if you want to 332 00:15:58,724 --> 00:16:02,224 Speaker 2: know how the biggest global stories unfold, make sure you 333 00:16:02,234 --> 00:16:05,955 Speaker 2: follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts 334 00:16:12,119 --> 00:16:14,580 Speaker 2: as a social worker, it's a difficult job. We know 335 00:16:14,590 --> 00:16:17,250 Speaker 2: people do tend to leave after a few years like 336 00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:20,099 Speaker 2: in any profession, I guess what? Then because you got 337 00:16:20,109 --> 00:16:23,450 Speaker 2: to know John this child really well in three years 338 00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:25,419 Speaker 2: and then suddenly you leave and he's left with this 339 00:16:25,429 --> 00:16:28,140 Speaker 2: new social worker who may not know him at all. 340 00:16:28,369 --> 00:16:30,419 Speaker 2: How do you all deal with that? Whether we like 341 00:16:30,429 --> 00:16:32,780 Speaker 2: it or not, we form certain attachments with these Children 342 00:16:32,789 --> 00:16:35,500 Speaker 2: as well because these are Children who have built trust 343 00:16:35,510 --> 00:16:36,380 Speaker 2: with you and all that, 344 00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:39,419 Speaker 2: but you cannot prevent people who are going to leave. 345 00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:42,469 Speaker 2: So the process as much as possible, we try to 346 00:16:42,479 --> 00:16:46,179 Speaker 2: make it a bit more seamless where the worker prior 347 00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:49,820 Speaker 2: to their departure would introduce the new worker for at 348 00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:53,169 Speaker 2: least minimally one or two sessions to get them comfortable 349 00:16:53,179 --> 00:16:56,909 Speaker 2: and hand over the case progressively rather than very abruptly, 350 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,359 Speaker 2: which is why the notice period and the handover period 351 00:16:59,369 --> 00:17:02,109 Speaker 2: is very, very important in our work. Is there enough 352 00:17:02,119 --> 00:17:06,379 Speaker 2: power for those in your position to act on the 353 00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: child's behalf on the family's behalf? So I asked in 354 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:12,020 Speaker 2: the sense that being absent from school alone is not 355 00:17:12,030 --> 00:17:14,540 Speaker 2: enough to say you need to do something even if 356 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:16,709 Speaker 2: you met a family who was and you had a 357 00:17:16,719 --> 00:17:18,910 Speaker 2: sense that they were being abusive to their Children. At 358 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,260 Speaker 2: which point can you act? 359 00:17:20,708 --> 00:17:23,498 Speaker 2: Do you feel that there needs to be more empowerment 360 00:17:23,509 --> 00:17:26,649 Speaker 2: to do something for the Children? Because very often you 361 00:17:26,659 --> 00:17:29,838 Speaker 2: have to wait until it's too late like you mentioned 362 00:17:29,848 --> 00:17:33,269 Speaker 2: just now and the Children, young persons act CSS under CPS, 363 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:36,938 Speaker 2: they can invoke certain powers to actually remove the child 364 00:17:36,948 --> 00:17:39,917 Speaker 2: even if the parents were to not agree. Have you 365 00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:42,797 Speaker 2: ever used it when I was a CPO? Yes, I did. 366 00:17:42,838 --> 00:17:46,417 Speaker 2: You felt that you had enough empowerment to act quickly? 367 00:17:46,629 --> 00:17:46,848 Speaker 2: I think 368 00:17:46,959 --> 00:17:50,449 Speaker 2: when you have very clear evidence, not only from your own, right? 369 00:17:50,459 --> 00:17:54,420 Speaker 2: Like also corroboration with other professionals of what's happening and 370 00:17:54,430 --> 00:17:56,849 Speaker 2: it's not just made by the CPO. So the CPO 371 00:17:56,859 --> 00:18:00,459 Speaker 2: has to present to her supervisor and above like, why 372 00:18:00,469 --> 00:18:03,948 Speaker 2: do we have to remove this child? Then as ac 373 00:18:03,979 --> 00:18:06,979 Speaker 2: PS as a whole, they make this joint decision together. 374 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,089 Speaker 2: And of course, if there are like issues with the 375 00:18:10,099 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: removal process, then that's when we may also call 376 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:16,209 Speaker 2: for assistance because I also get the sense that very 377 00:18:16,219 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: often sometimes it could be the school canteen operator who 378 00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: notices that this little girl always comes with a certain 379 00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:25,438 Speaker 2: bruise and she wants to say something, but maybe they're 380 00:18:25,449 --> 00:18:28,989 Speaker 2: not quite sure. And are these people reached out to 381 00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:32,420 Speaker 2: in 2021? Right? There was quite a lot of outrage 382 00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:36,699 Speaker 2: and also awareness raising that MSF embarked on first was 383 00:18:36,709 --> 00:18:39,579 Speaker 2: the refreshing of the Break The Silence campaign 384 00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:43,550 Speaker 2: where the public was told everybody can actually alert when 385 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,339 Speaker 2: there is some violence or child abuse going on. We 386 00:18:46,349 --> 00:18:49,079 Speaker 2: took the opportunity to educate the public about all kinds 387 00:18:49,089 --> 00:18:52,069 Speaker 2: of abuse and also what bystanders can do. We also 388 00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:56,689 Speaker 2: created in 2021 we launched the National Anti Violence and 389 00:18:56,699 --> 00:19:00,750 Speaker 2: Sexual Harassment helpline. That is actually for the public as 390 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,500 Speaker 2: well as professionals to quickly be able to call this 391 00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:07,130 Speaker 2: 18 number to alert. Then we will go to actually 392 00:19:07,140 --> 00:19:08,449 Speaker 2: investigate and support. 393 00:19:08,655 --> 00:19:11,284 Speaker 2: So there is a 1 800 number. I have to 394 00:19:11,295 --> 00:19:13,074 Speaker 2: admit I'm not familiar with that. I can give you 395 00:19:13,084 --> 00:19:16,353 Speaker 2: that 1 800 triple seven, double zero, double zero. Ok. 396 00:19:16,364 --> 00:19:18,313 Speaker 2: So any time any of us suspect there might be 397 00:19:18,324 --> 00:19:20,375 Speaker 2: a situation, we can just make a call. It doesn't 398 00:19:20,385 --> 00:19:22,254 Speaker 2: mean that the family or child will get into trouble, 399 00:19:22,265 --> 00:19:25,505 Speaker 2: but someone will therefore investigate based on that. Ok. What's 400 00:19:25,515 --> 00:19:29,354 Speaker 2: the number again? 1 800 triple seven, double zero, double zero? Ok, 401 00:19:29,364 --> 00:19:32,474 Speaker 2: because reports say that there are over 2000 cases and 402 00:19:32,484 --> 00:19:35,114 Speaker 2: these are just the reported cases. So is it fair 403 00:19:35,125 --> 00:19:36,994 Speaker 2: to assume that there could be an additional 404 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: 10 20% that go unreported? It's very highly possible. I 405 00:19:41,410 --> 00:19:44,010 Speaker 2: think that's where the other partners that we work with 406 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:47,790 Speaker 2: the schools, other agencies who have entry points to these 407 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: families can be the eyes and ears on the ground 408 00:19:50,719 --> 00:19:52,929 Speaker 2: to flag these cases or flag the concerns to the 409 00:19:52,939 --> 00:19:55,260 Speaker 2: necessary parties. And that's an important step. 410 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,238 Speaker 2: And is there any kind of a centralized database that 411 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:00,109 Speaker 2: you all can share so that you know, if the 412 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,180 Speaker 2: person went to this FSC, then went to this other 413 00:20:03,189 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: FSC and sort of look at their history. So for 414 00:20:06,130 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 2: the FSC sector, yes, we have an integrated system where 415 00:20:09,729 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 2: we may not be able to see the full details 416 00:20:11,969 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: of a person who has been attended to at another 417 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,458 Speaker 2: center because of confidentiality, 418 00:20:16,692 --> 00:20:18,062 Speaker 2: we will be able to see that this person has 419 00:20:18,071 --> 00:20:20,642 Speaker 2: approached the center and the day they have done. So 420 00:20:20,652 --> 00:20:24,032 Speaker 2: if so we do see a pattern of behavior or 421 00:20:24,042 --> 00:20:26,883 Speaker 2: history of seeking help and they come through our doors, 422 00:20:26,892 --> 00:20:28,853 Speaker 2: we will call our partners to find out, hey, what 423 00:20:28,863 --> 00:20:31,172 Speaker 2: was the help request? What was done for the family? 424 00:20:31,182 --> 00:20:32,973 Speaker 2: And they will tell you what happened. They can tell 425 00:20:32,983 --> 00:20:35,113 Speaker 2: us briefly when they come through our doors for help. 426 00:20:35,123 --> 00:20:37,552 Speaker 2: The first thing we do is get their consent, that 427 00:20:37,645 --> 00:20:40,406 Speaker 2: data may be shared for the purposes of helping them. 428 00:20:40,526 --> 00:20:42,635 Speaker 2: So they do sign off on a consent to allow 429 00:20:42,645 --> 00:20:45,145 Speaker 2: us to check these things as well because coming in 430 00:20:45,156 --> 00:20:49,066 Speaker 2: to ask for financial assistance is very different from abuse. 431 00:20:49,306 --> 00:20:52,254 Speaker 2: One would want to know the entire circumstances, right. Yeah, 432 00:20:52,265 --> 00:20:56,735 Speaker 2: so we do inform consent and confidentiality is also conditional 433 00:20:56,744 --> 00:20:58,505 Speaker 2: and this is made clear from the onset 434 00:20:58,739 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: that if there is cause for concern of harm to 435 00:21:01,530 --> 00:21:05,099 Speaker 2: themselves or to others around them, we will breach that confidentiality. 436 00:21:05,109 --> 00:21:09,139 Speaker 2: Cross to safeguard anyone involved. Clients who come in for 437 00:21:09,150 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: assistance are made known to these facts. And like you said, 438 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 2: the under reporting can also happen because when they come 439 00:21:15,569 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 2: presenting on the onset with the family violence or child 440 00:21:18,410 --> 00:21:19,599 Speaker 2: abuse concern is very clear, 441 00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:23,229 Speaker 2: but sometimes they come in with other issues, financial parenting, 442 00:21:23,449 --> 00:21:25,790 Speaker 2: but as we try it with the family, we engage 443 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,310 Speaker 2: the family, then you realize all these other, I mean, no, 444 00:21:28,439 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: I'm going to come in and say I'm abusing my child. 445 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:33,949 Speaker 2: There are people who come and call for help so 446 00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:37,959 Speaker 2: they recognize and that we also appreciate acknowledge. 447 00:21:38,069 --> 00:21:40,449 Speaker 2: OK, this is an attempt for them to get help 448 00:21:40,459 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: and very quickly we have to go in and put 449 00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:45,208 Speaker 2: in mechanisms to support them. And one cannot help but 450 00:21:45,219 --> 00:21:49,739 Speaker 2: also ask whether it tends to be certain demographics that 451 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:52,829 Speaker 2: are more vulnerable. Those who live in rental flats, who 452 00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 2: may have parents who suffer from substance abuse and things 453 00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:56,209 Speaker 2: like that. 454 00:21:56,479 --> 00:21:59,869 Speaker 2: Is there a greater need for perhaps organizations on the ground, 455 00:21:59,969 --> 00:22:04,069 Speaker 2: FS CS homes, volunteer groups to be better co-ordinated? Would 456 00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:06,979 Speaker 2: you think that would help? There were learnings from all 457 00:22:06,989 --> 00:22:09,969 Speaker 2: the cases past history and all. And we've also reviewed 458 00:22:09,979 --> 00:22:13,949 Speaker 2: and also looked at tightening processes and data sharing as 459 00:22:13,959 --> 00:22:17,260 Speaker 2: well as strengthen how we coordinate around information sharing. 460 00:22:17,579 --> 00:22:19,550 Speaker 2: This has really helped a lot. We have set up 461 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: some systems whereby even after a case is completed by CPS, 462 00:22:23,459 --> 00:22:26,139 Speaker 2: there's actually like a follow up in the community like 463 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:29,430 Speaker 2: family service centers or monitoring safety check ins and all 464 00:22:29,439 --> 00:22:32,149 Speaker 2: so that we are all having conversations. We also work 465 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,810 Speaker 2: with government organizations to set up like a framework for 466 00:22:35,819 --> 00:22:38,189 Speaker 2: cases where they have challenges citing Children. 467 00:22:38,479 --> 00:22:41,300 Speaker 2: MSF is able to help check with like IC and 468 00:22:41,310 --> 00:22:43,859 Speaker 2: police and all to be able to provide information if 469 00:22:43,869 --> 00:22:46,909 Speaker 2: a child is missing and the FSC or committee agency 470 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,619 Speaker 2: tells us they have not been able to cite the child. 471 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,819 Speaker 2: Is there a gap now for those who are under 472 00:22:50,829 --> 00:22:53,099 Speaker 2: the age of seven? Because when you're in school, there 473 00:22:53,109 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 2: are others in your environment to raise the alarm. But 474 00:22:56,209 --> 00:22:58,829 Speaker 2: when you are under seven and sort of mostly at home, 475 00:22:58,969 --> 00:23:00,810 Speaker 2: I think what has happened in the last few years 476 00:23:00,819 --> 00:23:03,419 Speaker 2: is also training of the professional. So childcare teachers, 477 00:23:03,666 --> 00:23:05,427 Speaker 2: a lot of them are trained in c and also 478 00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:09,187 Speaker 2: identifying an SSSG which is a sector screening guide. When 479 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:12,807 Speaker 2: they observe some of these signs of possible abuse, they 480 00:23:12,817 --> 00:23:15,245 Speaker 2: know when to alert early or if a child is 481 00:23:15,256 --> 00:23:17,847 Speaker 2: missing for very long, they also have processes to update 482 00:23:17,857 --> 00:23:20,496 Speaker 2: very quickly the gap. You're saying if they're not even 483 00:23:20,506 --> 00:23:23,317 Speaker 2: in preschool, yes, that's definitely worrying. But if they are 484 00:23:23,327 --> 00:23:25,847 Speaker 2: known to any of the systems, like the FSE for instance, 485 00:23:25,857 --> 00:23:28,006 Speaker 2: for any reason, and we know that that's a child 486 00:23:28,016 --> 00:23:28,776 Speaker 2: below the age of 487 00:23:28,994 --> 00:23:32,223 Speaker 2: who's not in preschool. And we are worried about certain 488 00:23:32,284 --> 00:23:34,904 Speaker 2: possible risk factors that are present in the family. We 489 00:23:34,913 --> 00:23:38,644 Speaker 2: would definitely encourage and support preschool placement to help and 490 00:23:38,654 --> 00:23:41,042 Speaker 2: increase safety. But if they're not known to anyone at 491 00:23:41,053 --> 00:23:43,582 Speaker 2: all and that might be a dangerous situation. That is 492 00:23:43,593 --> 00:23:47,323 Speaker 2: possible now. Right. And that's where I think neighbors and 493 00:23:47,333 --> 00:23:50,312 Speaker 2: other members of public who have access to call the hotline, 494 00:23:50,453 --> 00:23:53,263 Speaker 2: they hear child crying every day, they can report these 495 00:23:53,273 --> 00:23:53,953 Speaker 2: things so that 496 00:23:54,041 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: outreach can be done. There are also others like Kling 497 00:23:56,850 --> 00:23:59,250 Speaker 2: befrienders who actually go to rental blocks to make home 498 00:23:59,260 --> 00:24:02,061 Speaker 2: visits and all they actually sometimes be able to support. 499 00:24:02,071 --> 00:24:04,139 Speaker 2: We also have kids start, which is for Children 0 500 00:24:04,151 --> 00:24:07,500 Speaker 2: to 3, which actually works with mothers who are pregnant 501 00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:09,750 Speaker 2: as well as the Children to look at the parenting 502 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,890 Speaker 2: and further support. And they actually go in for home 503 00:24:11,901 --> 00:24:14,581 Speaker 2: visits quite frequently. So that's the other group that can 504 00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:17,109 Speaker 2: actually sometimes see these Children and they are out to 505 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,140 Speaker 2: reach out to these families, right? Because I think 506 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,449 Speaker 2: it's very hard for them to go ask for help, 507 00:24:21,459 --> 00:24:23,530 Speaker 2: may feel a bit ashamed of that as well. I've 508 00:24:23,540 --> 00:24:26,869 Speaker 2: also had more that do home visits, giving out some 509 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,790 Speaker 2: food and all this, then they will alert us. So 510 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,589 Speaker 2: we have been very blessed to have very strong community 511 00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,349 Speaker 2: support and a lot of different partners who alert us 512 00:24:34,540 --> 00:24:37,198 Speaker 2: what some of the things that would make your job 513 00:24:37,209 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 2: easier or help you help these families and these Children better. 514 00:24:41,369 --> 00:24:42,170 Speaker 2: What do you think 515 00:24:42,469 --> 00:24:45,329 Speaker 2: would be some of those things, you know, for myself, 516 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:48,599 Speaker 2: there are many partner agencies that we have like the schools, 517 00:24:48,609 --> 00:24:52,969 Speaker 2: the hospitals that may have encounters with these families, sometimes 518 00:24:52,979 --> 00:24:55,969 Speaker 2: what happens is when they hear of such incidents or 519 00:24:55,979 --> 00:24:58,729 Speaker 2: areas of concern, they have to call the FSC, right? 520 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,599 Speaker 2: Or they will report it to their partner agencies and 521 00:25:01,609 --> 00:25:03,979 Speaker 2: that already is second hand information and we need to 522 00:25:03,989 --> 00:25:06,839 Speaker 2: go in and engage the child all over again and 523 00:25:06,849 --> 00:25:10,209 Speaker 2: build that trust and do that investigation for the lack 524 00:25:10,219 --> 00:25:10,890 Speaker 2: of better word, 525 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,139 Speaker 2: I guess with greater awareness and like you said, the 526 00:25:14,150 --> 00:25:17,140 Speaker 2: schools are also being trained to utilize some of these 527 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 2: tools so that the intervention can come quickly. These front 528 00:25:20,689 --> 00:25:24,260 Speaker 2: liners can then make that first triage assessment and already 529 00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:28,209 Speaker 2: flag the case without having to go to another person. 530 00:25:28,219 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: So I think managers, supervisors, school leaders would then have 531 00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 2: to support their staff in being able to do that. 532 00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:37,290 Speaker 2: That would be helpful. The bigger picture is really the 533 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,050 Speaker 2: upstream work or the developmental work that needs to happen 534 00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:40,420 Speaker 2: so that 535 00:25:40,709 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: we do things that prevent us from coming to that 536 00:25:44,530 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: incident of child abuse in the first place. That's where 537 00:25:47,410 --> 00:25:50,478 Speaker 2: we have set ups like fam at FSS, which are 538 00:25:50,489 --> 00:25:54,810 Speaker 2: centers that work with marriage support, divorce, support and counseling issues. 539 00:25:54,939 --> 00:25:58,079 Speaker 2: Not only for families who already have such concerns, but 540 00:25:58,089 --> 00:26:00,729 Speaker 2: when they are beginning to have such troubles, there are 541 00:26:00,739 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: also parenting programs out there like the positive parenting program, 542 00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:07,099 Speaker 2: triple P. The resources are there for families to tap 543 00:26:07,109 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 2: on 544 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,619 Speaker 2: so that we want to do enough to make sure 545 00:26:10,709 --> 00:26:12,949 Speaker 2: it doesn't get to that child abuse situation in the 546 00:26:12,959 --> 00:26:16,979 Speaker 2: first place. So that's important to reinforce the ecosystem to 547 00:26:16,989 --> 00:26:19,179 Speaker 2: build up the family. Because if the family is in 548 00:26:19,189 --> 00:26:21,819 Speaker 2: a good place to begin with, then many of these 549 00:26:21,829 --> 00:26:25,219 Speaker 2: other things will not happen further down the line. 550 00:26:25,739 --> 00:26:27,569 Speaker 2: But we can't change any of this overnight and, and 551 00:26:27,579 --> 00:26:31,109 Speaker 2: families will always be in difficult situations if you had 552 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,179 Speaker 2: a wish list so called. It takes a village to 553 00:26:33,189 --> 00:26:37,150 Speaker 2: raise a child. I think beyond professionals, everyone living day 554 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 2: to day life can also be a bit more courageous 555 00:26:40,130 --> 00:26:42,988 Speaker 2: to be a voice for these Children and youths, right? 556 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,500 Speaker 2: When they see or they feel that something is amiss. 557 00:26:45,689 --> 00:26:48,649 Speaker 2: There is the hotline for them to call. Sometimes even 558 00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:51,300 Speaker 2: it could be the child is wearing a uniform, right? 559 00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:51,849 Speaker 2: They could just be 560 00:26:51,946 --> 00:26:54,748 Speaker 2: from the school like I noticed this child. Yeah, he 561 00:26:54,758 --> 00:26:56,828 Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be coping well, right. So there are 562 00:26:56,838 --> 00:27:00,016 Speaker 2: actually many channels for even day to day people to 563 00:27:00,027 --> 00:27:03,387 Speaker 2: actually approach to just alert if they do see something 564 00:27:03,397 --> 00:27:05,647 Speaker 2: that is not right in the public, but it's also 565 00:27:05,657 --> 00:27:07,777 Speaker 2: a bit difficult because we are Asians, right? You don't 566 00:27:07,787 --> 00:27:10,067 Speaker 2: want to be a capable so to speak and they 567 00:27:10,078 --> 00:27:12,537 Speaker 2: are to people who discipline their Children in different ways, 568 00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:14,618 Speaker 2: not all of it is wrong. So at which point 569 00:27:14,628 --> 00:27:17,887 Speaker 2: do you sort of become a whistleblower reports are also, 570 00:27:17,897 --> 00:27:18,248 Speaker 2: are you 571 00:27:18,345 --> 00:27:22,296 Speaker 2: kept anonymous? So I think that could assure everyone as well. 572 00:27:22,306 --> 00:27:25,786 Speaker 2: Like I know that CPS don't reveal the reporters. So 573 00:27:25,796 --> 00:27:28,205 Speaker 2: I hope that it's assuring enough for people to actually 574 00:27:28,215 --> 00:27:31,535 Speaker 2: step up reports that come in are very resource intensive, right? 575 00:27:31,546 --> 00:27:33,836 Speaker 2: Because we need to put in the people and systems 576 00:27:33,845 --> 00:27:36,186 Speaker 2: in place. But one child, that is one child that 577 00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:40,656 Speaker 2: too many every call counts. It's anonymous, that's what it 578 00:27:40,666 --> 00:27:43,595 Speaker 2: would take for people. And I think with greater awareness 579 00:27:43,605 --> 00:27:44,645 Speaker 2: and greater accessibility, 580 00:27:44,803 --> 00:27:47,193 Speaker 2: it is a bit easier to do these things. I 581 00:27:47,203 --> 00:27:49,842 Speaker 2: would rather people err on the side of caution, then 582 00:27:49,854 --> 00:27:52,354 Speaker 2: then it's too late for us to do anything because 583 00:27:52,364 --> 00:27:54,854 Speaker 2: I imagine when these are picked up early, it makes 584 00:27:54,864 --> 00:27:58,604 Speaker 2: a significant difference, right? And I think I agree with 585 00:27:58,614 --> 00:28:01,683 Speaker 2: what you're talking about in terms of really upstream people 586 00:28:01,693 --> 00:28:03,863 Speaker 2: coming forward. And my wish list is that all Children 587 00:28:03,874 --> 00:28:07,904 Speaker 2: in Singapore have sessions of protective behavior because that module 588 00:28:07,913 --> 00:28:10,943 Speaker 2: also talks about Children seeking help. Also the 589 00:28:11,141 --> 00:28:13,802 Speaker 2: clarity about what's good touch, what's bad touch, you know, 590 00:28:13,811 --> 00:28:16,852 Speaker 2: what's unsafe and all. So there's also clarity from the child. 591 00:28:17,082 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: Many of the disclosures also come from Children, which is 592 00:28:19,891 --> 00:28:23,241 Speaker 2: very helpful because then they are fully aware of what's right, 593 00:28:23,251 --> 00:28:25,061 Speaker 2: what's not and then they are at least able to 594 00:28:25,071 --> 00:28:27,251 Speaker 2: seek help. So one of the focus of the program 595 00:28:27,261 --> 00:28:31,541 Speaker 2: is really emphasizing seeking help persistently seeking help. If someone 596 00:28:31,552 --> 00:28:33,822 Speaker 2: doesn't help you ask, tell another person like a teacher, 597 00:28:33,832 --> 00:28:36,151 Speaker 2: you know, so that's one of the things is my 598 00:28:36,161 --> 00:28:37,442 Speaker 2: wish list. And I think count 599 00:28:37,969 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: child abuse. The other part is family violence. These two 600 00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: go hand in hand because they sometimes cour together we 601 00:28:44,650 --> 00:28:46,410 Speaker 2: are appealing to the public to be able to, at 602 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: least when they see something like this to quickly highlight 603 00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:51,810 Speaker 2: because we all have a responsibility as a society to 604 00:28:51,819 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: actually be able to prevent any child from getting abused. 605 00:28:55,130 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing all of that. You know, many 606 00:28:56,810 --> 00:28:59,079 Speaker 2: of us tend to be a bit hesitant to tell 607 00:28:59,089 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: on others, but it's better to just say something now 608 00:29:02,170 --> 00:29:03,839 Speaker 2: rather than wait till it's too late. 609 00:29:04,229 --> 00:29:05,660 Speaker 2: And we know that no one feels the loss of 610 00:29:05,670 --> 00:29:07,609 Speaker 2: a child more keenly than people like you who work 611 00:29:07,619 --> 00:29:10,489 Speaker 2: with them directly. So while the infrastructure is there, it 612 00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,290 Speaker 2: doesn't always work. Right. Well, I hope our, our discussion 613 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:16,670 Speaker 2: today has given everyone some insight into this and for 614 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,329 Speaker 2: those of you who have been listening and joining us 615 00:29:18,339 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 2: as well, we hope that this has created a bit 616 00:29:20,729 --> 00:29:22,939 Speaker 2: more awareness on the situation so that next time you 617 00:29:22,949 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 2: see or hear something that just doesn't seem right. Don't 618 00:29:25,569 --> 00:29:28,180 Speaker 2: be afraid to call and to raise the alarm. Many 619 00:29:28,189 --> 00:29:30,359 Speaker 2: thanks to my guests and to the CN A podcast 620 00:29:30,369 --> 00:29:31,939 Speaker 2: team behind Heart of the Matter. 621 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,540 Speaker 2: They are Jacqueline Chan, Jaclyn Tan. Tiffany Ang, Joan Chan, 622 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,380 Speaker 2: Sai Ye Wen and Christina Robert and I'm Steven Chia 623 00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:39,339 Speaker 2: s bye for now.