1 00:00:03,369 --> 00:00:05,710 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast, 2 00:00:08,478 --> 00:00:11,899 Speaker 1: I was like frantically applying to jobs on linkedin on 3 00:00:11,909 --> 00:00:14,729 Speaker 1: job boards. But I faced a lot of rejections. Like 4 00:00:14,739 --> 00:00:17,659 Speaker 1: for the past 1.5 months, more than 100 more than 5 00:00:17,690 --> 00:00:21,569 Speaker 1: 100 rejections. How do they filter out these applications? 6 00:00:21,579 --> 00:00:24,399 Speaker 2: Most of the companies, they do have some form of 7 00:00:24,409 --> 00:00:25,409 Speaker 2: filtering software. 8 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: You may might not even have been opened by a recruiter. 9 00:00:29,450 --> 00:00:29,780 Speaker 1: Is it 10 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: harder now in the age of A I? You 11 00:00:31,850 --> 00:00:33,869 Speaker 2: might find a link from the company to say, can 12 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,220 Speaker 2: you record yourself answering some interview questions? It doesn't quite 13 00:00:37,229 --> 00:00:40,668 Speaker 2: feel natural, but the advocates for such technology, they often 14 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 2: say that it reduces the biases of the screening. 15 00:00:45,259 --> 00:00:47,770 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Tiffany and you're listening to the work 16 00:00:47,779 --> 00:00:51,369 Speaker 1: at podcast, a podcast where we navigate through some of 17 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: your thorniest workplace issues. 18 00:00:54,209 --> 00:00:56,689 Speaker 2: And I'm Gerald. I hope you have found our conversations 19 00:00:56,700 --> 00:01:00,229 Speaker 2: helpful so far. Especially the ask me anything segment that 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: we will have later in the show. Do you have 21 00:01:02,369 --> 00:01:04,410 Speaker 2: a good question for me, Tiffany? I do. 22 00:01:04,709 --> 00:01:08,300 Speaker 1: And that is how to manage your micromanaging boss. 23 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:11,779 Speaker 1: I'm sure many people are already picturing a face in 24 00:01:11,790 --> 00:01:12,699 Speaker 1: their heads. 25 00:01:12,790 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: This is definitely a lot more common than we think. Right. 26 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: And I will definitely try my best to give you 27 00:01:17,330 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: some tips later on on how to deal with that. 28 00:01:19,449 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: But first, if you have not already followed us, please 29 00:01:21,809 --> 00:01:24,900 Speaker 2: subscribe to us on Spotify or Apple Podcast and you 30 00:01:24,910 --> 00:01:26,790 Speaker 2: will know when a new episode drops. 31 00:01:26,839 --> 00:01:29,958 Speaker 1: Yes. And ok, Gerald, today's topic is quite a personal 32 00:01:29,970 --> 00:01:32,518 Speaker 1: one and I don't mean that it's personal for me 33 00:01:32,790 --> 00:01:35,879 Speaker 1: because our guest today went through a bit of a 34 00:01:35,889 --> 00:01:38,599 Speaker 1: hump not so long ago. So I first got to 35 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:40,910 Speaker 1: know of a story because of a linkedin post that 36 00:01:40,919 --> 00:01:43,889 Speaker 1: she wrote and it went viral in this post. She 37 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:48,980 Speaker 1: talked about getting more than 100 auto job rejection emails, 38 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,559 Speaker 1: 100 auto rejection emails. This means a bot or a 39 00:01:53,569 --> 00:01:56,839 Speaker 1: system I think, decided she wasn't a good fit for 40 00:01:56,849 --> 00:01:59,569 Speaker 1: the role, right? Am I kind of right? So I 41 00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:00,610 Speaker 1: remember thinking 42 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: is this now more common in the age of A I? 43 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:06,620 Speaker 1: And how do we circumvent it? How do we get 44 00:02:06,629 --> 00:02:08,889 Speaker 1: around this if we want to be noticed? Yeah, 45 00:02:08,899 --> 00:02:12,369 Speaker 2: Tiffany is very common and maybe later on as we progress, 46 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:14,668 Speaker 2: we will explain a bit more of why. So, but 47 00:02:14,679 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: first let us welcome Chia Hui to the show. 48 00:02:16,610 --> 00:02:16,869 Speaker 1: Hi 49 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,270 Speaker 1: guys. Thank you for inviting me to this podcast. I 50 00:02:19,279 --> 00:02:20,119 Speaker 1: am excited to be here. 51 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,830 Speaker 1: Yes. Excited to throw your questions to Gerald, right? 52 00:02:22,839 --> 00:02:23,300 Speaker 2: You 53 00:02:23,309 --> 00:02:25,369 Speaker 2: are incredibly brave to be here. So we are very 54 00:02:25,380 --> 00:02:27,770 Speaker 2: excited to hear your story and also to hear about 55 00:02:27,779 --> 00:02:28,508 Speaker 2: your experiences. 56 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,070 Speaker 1: Yeah. So our episode today is a bit different than usual. 57 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,508 Speaker 1: Usually we have a guest coming on to talk about 58 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,508 Speaker 1: their expert tips or their advice and everything. But today 59 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,389 Speaker 1: I want Gerald to wear his career guidance hat. 60 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,750 Speaker 1: Jh, see this as getting advice and tips for the 61 00:02:42,758 --> 00:02:45,508 Speaker 1: situation you are in. Why don't we start with? Why 62 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,899 Speaker 1: were you looking for a job? You're only 27. So 63 00:02:47,910 --> 00:02:50,460 Speaker 1: I assume there were many options available. So what happened 64 00:02:50,470 --> 00:02:52,850 Speaker 1: that caused you to start looking for a job? Yeah. 65 00:02:52,860 --> 00:02:55,690 Speaker 1: So previously I was a product manager in the bank. Ok. 66 00:02:55,699 --> 00:02:58,119 Speaker 1: And then subsequently, I actually decided to leave the bank 67 00:02:58,130 --> 00:03:00,270 Speaker 1: because it was a bit too middle office for me. 68 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:03,130 Speaker 1: I'm a bit more extroverted or I get my energy 69 00:03:03,139 --> 00:03:05,470 Speaker 1: from talking to people in that sense. So I wanted 70 00:03:05,490 --> 00:03:07,899 Speaker 1: a more fun facing role. I secured a job before 71 00:03:07,910 --> 00:03:08,470 Speaker 1: I left the bank, 72 00:03:08,550 --> 00:03:11,269 Speaker 1: but there was a very sudden hiring freeze. So I 73 00:03:11,281 --> 00:03:13,921 Speaker 1: was supposed to start last month actually. Ok. Yeah. So 74 00:03:13,930 --> 00:03:16,930 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you found yourself jobless. Ok. Why 75 00:03:16,940 --> 00:03:19,330 Speaker 1: didn't you go back to the bank and say please 76 00:03:19,341 --> 00:03:21,710 Speaker 1: please give me a job. I wanted something different. I 77 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,970 Speaker 1: wanted to be in the tech space because you know, 78 00:03:23,981 --> 00:03:27,050 Speaker 1: like tech is a huge disrupter and it's very dynamic 79 00:03:27,061 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: and agile. So I wanted to be in that space 80 00:03:29,531 --> 00:03:32,061 Speaker 1: to kind of like, disrupt myself, you know, and, and 81 00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:34,710 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, be in that change. Ok, 82 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,151 Speaker 2: what was some of the immediate things that came to 83 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:37,380 Speaker 2: your mind 84 00:03:37,561 --> 00:03:40,552 Speaker 2: on? How should you respond in that new unforeseen circumstance? 85 00:03:40,662 --> 00:03:43,492 Speaker 1: I think immediately, I really kind of panicked a bit 86 00:03:43,501 --> 00:03:46,311 Speaker 1: because I didn't really account for that extended break. Right. 87 00:03:46,352 --> 00:03:48,111 Speaker 1: Of course, I think everybody is just like, you know, 88 00:03:48,121 --> 00:03:49,932 Speaker 1: you're looking forward to the next job. Right? Everybody tells 89 00:03:49,942 --> 00:03:51,792 Speaker 1: you don't quit without a job and then you did, 90 00:03:51,841 --> 00:03:53,231 Speaker 1: you quit and then there's no job. 91 00:03:54,281 --> 00:03:57,052 Speaker 2: She didn't quit without a job, but it didn't happen. Right. 92 00:03:57,061 --> 00:03:59,222 Speaker 2: But it must be doubly hard, I 93 00:03:59,231 --> 00:03:59,671 Speaker 2: guess. 94 00:03:59,832 --> 00:04:02,391 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So I was going through this period of 95 00:04:02,401 --> 00:04:06,272 Speaker 1: frustration and panic. So I was like, frantically applying 96 00:04:06,432 --> 00:04:09,623 Speaker 1: jobs on linkedin on job boards and things like that. 97 00:04:09,843 --> 00:04:12,302 Speaker 1: But I faced a lot of rejections, like for the 98 00:04:12,313 --> 00:04:16,722 Speaker 1: past 1.5 months. Yeah. More than 100 more than 100 rejections. Yeah. 99 00:04:16,733 --> 00:04:18,733 Speaker 1: So what kind of things that you would get because 100 00:04:18,743 --> 00:04:21,312 Speaker 1: it's an auto job rejection, right? So you would just 101 00:04:21,322 --> 00:04:23,351 Speaker 1: say thank you for applying. Yeah. So they would send 102 00:04:23,363 --> 00:04:26,303 Speaker 1: me an email to say we appreciate your application, but 103 00:04:26,312 --> 00:04:28,722 Speaker 1: we will be moving on with other candidates. Thank you 104 00:04:28,733 --> 00:04:31,082 Speaker 1: for applying. How quick will you get like one of 105 00:04:31,092 --> 00:04:34,072 Speaker 1: these auto rejection emails. OK. Some can be like in 106 00:04:34,083 --> 00:04:35,132 Speaker 1: a matter of days, 107 00:04:35,253 --> 00:04:38,944 Speaker 1: but some can take super long weeks like 23 weeks. 108 00:04:38,954 --> 00:04:40,104 Speaker 1: I see I should get back to you. 109 00:04:40,194 --> 00:04:42,363 Speaker 2: So I got to ask this question, right? You applied 110 00:04:42,373 --> 00:04:45,854 Speaker 2: for about 100 roles out there and were these roles 111 00:04:45,863 --> 00:04:49,433 Speaker 2: similar to what you were envisioning or hoping to work 112 00:04:49,444 --> 00:04:52,093 Speaker 2: in or did you just randomly apply for any job? Yeah. 113 00:04:52,104 --> 00:04:52,324 Speaker 2: So 114 00:04:52,334 --> 00:04:55,973 Speaker 1: I actually focus mainly in tech sales actually. So I 115 00:04:55,984 --> 00:04:58,884 Speaker 1: was applying for, I would say close to maybe 80 116 00:04:58,894 --> 00:05:03,253 Speaker 1: or 90 applications were more tech sales focused. The others 117 00:05:03,264 --> 00:05:04,053 Speaker 1: were more like 118 00:05:04,154 --> 00:05:05,734 Speaker 1: management in tech firms as well. 119 00:05:06,045 --> 00:05:06,075 Speaker 2: I 120 00:05:06,084 --> 00:05:08,933 Speaker 2: see. So pretty focused, you know, what you're looking for, 121 00:05:09,125 --> 00:05:11,605 Speaker 2: but you still didn't get any callbacks. It was just 122 00:05:11,613 --> 00:05:14,084 Speaker 2: mainly rejections after a couple of days or weeks. 123 00:05:14,095 --> 00:05:16,934 Speaker 1: Yeah. Give me an idea. You got 100 rejection emails. 124 00:05:16,945 --> 00:05:20,015 Speaker 1: But how many do you think you put in, you know, 125 00:05:20,024 --> 00:05:23,704 Speaker 1: as an application would say 152 100 I would say 126 00:05:23,714 --> 00:05:28,695 Speaker 1: about 100 160. Wow. Ok. So we talked a little 127 00:05:28,704 --> 00:05:32,975 Speaker 1: bit earlier, Gerald that these auto emails are actually quite common. 128 00:05:33,238 --> 00:05:36,820 Speaker 1: So how does I don't guess hr or you know, even, 129 00:05:36,829 --> 00:05:38,630 Speaker 1: I don't know, is there a board or whatever? How 130 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,179 Speaker 1: do they filter out these applications? 131 00:05:41,190 --> 00:05:45,178 Speaker 2: So usually after your application goes in most of the companies, 132 00:05:45,190 --> 00:05:48,049 Speaker 2: they do have some form of filtering software, we call 133 00:05:48,059 --> 00:05:51,609 Speaker 2: them applicant tracking systems or A TS in short. And 134 00:05:51,619 --> 00:05:54,100 Speaker 2: what this A TS does is it helps the hr 135 00:05:54,109 --> 00:05:57,969 Speaker 2: person to screen through the resumes that are sent for 136 00:05:57,980 --> 00:05:59,219 Speaker 2: every application. 137 00:05:59,540 --> 00:06:01,950 Speaker 2: So some of these tools they would start to look 138 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,678 Speaker 2: at the contents inside your resume. They will start to 139 00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:07,100 Speaker 2: look at how relevant it is to the job description, 140 00:06:07,109 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: the job that you applied for. And then you can imagine, right, 141 00:06:10,329 --> 00:06:12,540 Speaker 2: like every job, let's say, on average, it gets about 142 00:06:12,549 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: 250 applications. So the recruiter is definitely not going to 143 00:06:16,290 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: read all of them. So they only read maybe the 144 00:06:18,609 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: top 20 or top 50 at most 145 00:06:21,190 --> 00:06:24,630 Speaker 2: that surfaced up by this software. So that's how it works. 146 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,260 Speaker 2: The filtering works over there. So when we say auto rejection, 147 00:06:28,269 --> 00:06:29,529 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? It could be that you 148 00:06:29,540 --> 00:06:31,178 Speaker 2: get that thank you for applying and then 149 00:06:31,190 --> 00:06:32,179 Speaker 1: not even the top 150 00:06:32,190 --> 00:06:32,829 Speaker 1: 20 or 151 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:33,339 Speaker 1: 50 152 00:06:33,350 --> 00:06:37,959 Speaker 2: your resume might not even have been opened by a recruiter. 153 00:06:37,970 --> 00:06:40,140 Speaker 2: It's possible that they didn't get to see your resume 154 00:06:40,149 --> 00:06:42,500 Speaker 2: because they have only been looking at what has been 155 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,820 Speaker 2: elevated for their attention. So 156 00:06:44,829 --> 00:06:45,820 Speaker 1: how does the system 157 00:06:45,829 --> 00:06:48,690 Speaker 1: then figure out which ones will go into the top 158 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: 20 or 50? Is it by say, for example, if 159 00:06:51,450 --> 00:06:54,169 Speaker 1: the job description is looking for a sales assistant and 160 00:06:54,178 --> 00:06:56,690 Speaker 1: then you put them have experience as a sales assistant. 161 00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: So you are using the same keyword. 162 00:06:58,113 --> 00:07:00,174 Speaker 1: Is that how the system filters. Yes, 163 00:07:00,184 --> 00:07:03,934 Speaker 2: absolutely. So there are different kinds of algorithms, right? But 164 00:07:03,945 --> 00:07:06,385 Speaker 2: the most common one would be text passing, which means 165 00:07:06,394 --> 00:07:09,244 Speaker 2: that they read whatever is on the job description that's 166 00:07:09,255 --> 00:07:11,454 Speaker 2: written out that's required by the company. And then they 167 00:07:11,464 --> 00:07:13,375 Speaker 2: read through all the resumes that are being sent. 168 00:07:13,660 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: So they try to find keyword matches. There are some 169 00:07:15,890 --> 00:07:18,730 Speaker 2: software that looks at tonality, they start to look at 170 00:07:18,739 --> 00:07:22,700 Speaker 2: number of hits, number of frequency of words appearing. Then 171 00:07:22,709 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: after that, the ones that appear more relevant with more 172 00:07:25,730 --> 00:07:29,549 Speaker 2: content and similar tones, then those get elevated a lot higher. OK. 173 00:07:29,559 --> 00:07:33,299 Speaker 1: But what is then stopping Xia Hui from copying and 174 00:07:33,309 --> 00:07:36,910 Speaker 1: pasting the exact same job description and put it into 175 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: her resume? 176 00:07:37,712 --> 00:07:39,592 Speaker 1: She just needs to split it up apart, right? So 177 00:07:39,601 --> 00:07:41,261 Speaker 1: what I mean is that if the job description is 178 00:07:41,272 --> 00:07:45,962 Speaker 1: like able to, you know, work long hours and irregular hours, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 179 00:07:46,511 --> 00:07:48,731 Speaker 1: tell her you were previously also in the military and everything, 180 00:07:48,742 --> 00:07:51,092 Speaker 1: long hours. So part of it, you can just say 181 00:07:51,182 --> 00:07:54,571 Speaker 1: long hours when organizing events for the military. Yeah. 182 00:07:54,582 --> 00:07:56,872 Speaker 2: So I don't think you would be able to find 183 00:07:56,881 --> 00:07:59,701 Speaker 2: a person with exactly the same experiences for because every 184 00:07:59,712 --> 00:08:01,682 Speaker 2: job is pretty unique. Even the same job type 185 00:08:01,864 --> 00:08:05,003 Speaker 2: in two different companies would perform different roles. Yeah. So 186 00:08:05,014 --> 00:08:07,204 Speaker 2: the software is also quite intelligent to know that if 187 00:08:07,213 --> 00:08:11,003 Speaker 2: you are just copy and pasting the job description over, 188 00:08:11,093 --> 00:08:14,023 Speaker 2: they can tell that it's like probably not worth not genuine, 189 00:08:14,114 --> 00:08:17,694 Speaker 2: not genuine. So really what we often advocate for job 190 00:08:17,704 --> 00:08:20,153 Speaker 2: seekers to do is to start to look at what's 191 00:08:20,164 --> 00:08:22,433 Speaker 2: required on the job description and start to look at 192 00:08:22,444 --> 00:08:25,373 Speaker 2: your own experiences and where are some of the transferable 193 00:08:25,574 --> 00:08:25,704 Speaker 2: that 194 00:08:25,816 --> 00:08:29,395 Speaker 2: you could highlight more on or elaborate because it's important 195 00:08:29,406 --> 00:08:31,406 Speaker 2: to the job description. So very often we have to 196 00:08:31,415 --> 00:08:33,905 Speaker 2: read two documents, we have to read what's required from 197 00:08:33,916 --> 00:08:35,916 Speaker 2: us from the employer. I mean to look at what 198 00:08:35,926 --> 00:08:37,995 Speaker 2: we have, do we have a good fit from over there? 199 00:08:38,005 --> 00:08:40,976 Speaker 2: Then that's where we can start tweaking our resumes, knowing 200 00:08:40,986 --> 00:08:43,156 Speaker 2: what to emphasize on for that role. 201 00:08:43,325 --> 00:08:43,656 Speaker 1: OK. 202 00:08:44,005 --> 00:08:47,995 Speaker 1: Did you know about this? A ts this application tracking system? 203 00:08:48,005 --> 00:08:50,736 Speaker 1: I think I realized it a bit late. I was 204 00:08:50,745 --> 00:08:51,835 Speaker 1: a bit late to the game, right? 205 00:08:52,179 --> 00:08:54,099 Speaker 1: I only realized it like about a month and a 206 00:08:54,109 --> 00:08:56,699 Speaker 1: half ago. OK. Yeah. When I was actually speaking to 207 00:08:56,710 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: a friend where he actually told me about, oh, do 208 00:08:58,650 --> 00:09:01,270 Speaker 1: you know that hr actually use software systems to filter 209 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,010 Speaker 1: through your resume? Yeah, he actually sent me an article 210 00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:06,469 Speaker 1: about this. Yeah. So I actually realized that in a 211 00:09:06,479 --> 00:09:08,228 Speaker 1: lot of resumes, you have to highlight a lot of 212 00:09:08,239 --> 00:09:11,659 Speaker 1: keywords because that's what the ETS does, right? They filter 213 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: out through 214 00:09:11,969 --> 00:09:13,039 Speaker 1: keywords. That's right 215 00:09:13,789 --> 00:09:16,369 Speaker 2: that from your friend didn't make a difference for you. Yeah. 216 00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:18,650 Speaker 1: So what I did was that I actually changed the 217 00:09:18,659 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 1: way I applied to different jobs in a way. So 218 00:09:21,330 --> 00:09:24,739 Speaker 1: I actually customized each application really to do it, specific 219 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:27,329 Speaker 1: job scope in a sense. So I related my past 220 00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:29,309 Speaker 1: skills to how it's relevant to that role that I 221 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:29,429 Speaker 1: was 222 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:30,030 Speaker 1: applying for. 223 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:32,849 Speaker 2: And also I'm sure that the knowledge that hey, the 224 00:09:32,859 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: rejection emails didn't mean that you 225 00:09:34,989 --> 00:09:37,669 Speaker 2: experiences were not valued, you need to be crafted a 226 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,469 Speaker 2: certain way before it gets recognized. And maybe that helps 227 00:09:40,479 --> 00:09:43,070 Speaker 2: because you know, a lot of individuals that we have 228 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,039 Speaker 2: seen before on job seekers like JIA Hui, they don't 229 00:09:46,049 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 2: know about this A TS. And sometimes they go through 230 00:09:48,729 --> 00:09:52,250 Speaker 2: thousands of job rejections and they feel that they are 231 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:54,650 Speaker 2: the worst person in the world. They are the most 232 00:09:54,659 --> 00:09:56,330 Speaker 2: worthless person. They get that feeling. 233 00:09:56,619 --> 00:09:59,270 Speaker 2: And just by even telling them that, hey, you know, 234 00:09:59,419 --> 00:10:02,799 Speaker 2: there's this applicant tracking system that is filtering for many, 235 00:10:02,809 --> 00:10:06,419 Speaker 2: many companies and your resume may not surface. It helps 236 00:10:06,429 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: them to find a little bit of closure and to 237 00:10:08,890 --> 00:10:11,159 Speaker 2: kind of rebuild their self esteem a little bit more 238 00:10:11,169 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 2: to know that. Ok? It's not me. It's the system. 239 00:10:13,690 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say 240 00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:17,239 Speaker 1: it's like a breakup. It's not me, it's you. 241 00:10:19,179 --> 00:10:22,978 Speaker 1: But so you say Gerald that hr has been using 242 00:10:22,989 --> 00:10:27,109 Speaker 1: this A TS system for the longest time, right? Is 243 00:10:27,119 --> 00:10:29,150 Speaker 1: it harder now in the age of A I? Because 244 00:10:29,159 --> 00:10:31,449 Speaker 1: we have a I tools that are available. Is it 245 00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:33,848 Speaker 1: harder for people to get their foot through the door? 246 00:10:34,099 --> 00:10:36,619 Speaker 2: I think the A TS has been in the recruitment 247 00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:38,210 Speaker 2: scene for quite a long time, 248 00:10:38,469 --> 00:10:40,780 Speaker 2: but I must say that not every company uses them. 249 00:10:40,789 --> 00:10:43,780 Speaker 2: So usually the smaller firms, they don't need the A 250 00:10:43,969 --> 00:10:47,059 Speaker 2: TS because they can still afford to review the resumes 251 00:10:47,070 --> 00:10:49,450 Speaker 2: that come. Maybe they don't get that many applications. But 252 00:10:49,460 --> 00:10:52,150 Speaker 2: for large companies or MNC S on average, they get 253 00:10:52,159 --> 00:10:55,689 Speaker 2: a few 100 applications per job and across the organization, 254 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:59,968 Speaker 2: thousands of jobs simultaneously open looking for people. So that's 255 00:10:59,979 --> 00:11:02,469 Speaker 2: why the ETS is brought in to fulfill the function 256 00:11:02,770 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 2: with A I 257 00:11:03,859 --> 00:11:06,450 Speaker 2: I think we have seen how this A TS software 258 00:11:06,609 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: is becoming more skilled in doing more. For example, they 259 00:11:10,409 --> 00:11:14,260 Speaker 2: are able to source by crawling, crawling, meaning like going 260 00:11:14,270 --> 00:11:17,739 Speaker 2: to linkedin looking at people's profiles, try to see who 261 00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:18,859 Speaker 2: is suitable. So they 262 00:11:18,869 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: act like a head hunter themselves, right? So 263 00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:23,059 Speaker 2: sourcing it could be done there. And of course the 264 00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: sorting after pulling out some of these profiles, they can 265 00:11:26,010 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 2: sort to see which one is better 266 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:32,039 Speaker 2: and they could also be integrated into initial screening. So 267 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:35,189 Speaker 2: very much those initial first calls, you might find a 268 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,099 Speaker 2: link from the company to say, can you record yourself 269 00:11:38,109 --> 00:11:39,599 Speaker 2: answering some interview questions? 270 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:40,450 Speaker 1: Oh, yes, yes, 271 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:43,510 Speaker 1: yes, I have experience that you have. Yeah. So basically 272 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,210 Speaker 1: it was a I think it was a 30 to 273 00:11:45,219 --> 00:11:48,500 Speaker 1: 45 minutes video interview. OK. But you are facing the 274 00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:50,809 Speaker 1: camera and speaking to yourself in a way. So actually 275 00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:52,260 Speaker 1: it's a I, right. A I is the one who 276 00:11:52,270 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: is doing it. OK. OK. 277 00:11:53,849 --> 00:11:55,549 Speaker 1: So how did that feel when you had to go 278 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,189 Speaker 1: through that? OK. It felt a bit awkward, right? Like 279 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,289 Speaker 1: looking into a camera and speaking to yourself and not 280 00:12:00,299 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: facing an actual human, right? Yeah, because I feel like 281 00:12:02,330 --> 00:12:05,780 Speaker 1: human to human interaction is a bit different from just 282 00:12:05,789 --> 00:12:09,609 Speaker 1: looking at the webcam and looking at yourself talking about yourself. Right. Yeah. 283 00:12:09,619 --> 00:12:10,789 Speaker 1: So it's a bit weird. 284 00:12:10,799 --> 00:12:13,489 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't quite feel natural I think. But the 285 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:17,010 Speaker 2: advocates for such technology, they often say that it reduces 286 00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:18,979 Speaker 2: the biases of the screening 287 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,989 Speaker 2: because now you don't just look at a person and 288 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,179 Speaker 2: go with a few good vibe, you just go with 289 00:12:24,190 --> 00:12:27,069 Speaker 2: whatever the person is saying. So the algorithm is assessing 290 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,570 Speaker 2: for you. So it's supposed to reduce the bias now. 291 00:12:29,650 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: But the truth is the candidate is feeling very awkward. 292 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:35,789 Speaker 2: They did not perform exactly because they're not used to it. Yeah. Correct. 293 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:38,599 Speaker 2: So it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation here. Yeah. 294 00:12:38,989 --> 00:12:41,218 Speaker 2: So I think on this part about the video interviews, 295 00:12:41,229 --> 00:12:43,799 Speaker 2: it's here to stay. So more job seekers will need 296 00:12:43,809 --> 00:12:44,460 Speaker 2: to probably 297 00:12:44,549 --> 00:12:47,950 Speaker 2: be more ready or prepared to be comfortable with. Speaking 298 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,590 Speaker 2: at such interviews, there are tools of course that can 299 00:12:50,599 --> 00:12:55,150 Speaker 2: allow individuals to practice recording themselves, seeing themselves before they 300 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:56,669 Speaker 2: attend an interview like this? 301 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,949 Speaker 1: Ok. Did you ever use any of the A I tools? 302 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:02,969 Speaker 1: Did you use chat GP T or? Ok. So far 303 00:13:02,979 --> 00:13:05,030 Speaker 1: I use mainly chat GP T actually to help you 304 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:07,468 Speaker 1: to craft like a better cover letter kind of stuff. 305 00:13:07,479 --> 00:13:09,789 Speaker 1: Is it? Yeah. OK. Going back to 306 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:13,169 Speaker 1: on about your experience, right? So when you receive all 307 00:13:13,179 --> 00:13:15,710 Speaker 1: that rejection emails, we didn't get a chance to ask you, 308 00:13:15,719 --> 00:13:17,179 Speaker 1: how did that make you feel? I think it did 309 00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:20,429 Speaker 1: make me feel very frustrated and a bit worried whether 310 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: I was still relevant, whether I had the relevant skill 311 00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:24,700 Speaker 1: sets to be in the space that I wanted to 312 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: be in. So I had that phase where I was 313 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:29,409 Speaker 1: really going through a lot of self doubt. Yeah, because 314 00:13:29,419 --> 00:13:31,650 Speaker 1: that's very common as well, right. Gerald, you were saying 315 00:13:31,659 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: about people come to you as a counselor as well 316 00:13:34,330 --> 00:13:35,119 Speaker 1: and they ask you, 317 00:13:35,479 --> 00:13:36,590 Speaker 1: is it me? Right? 318 00:13:36,599 --> 00:13:39,099 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when we are going through a transition 319 00:13:39,109 --> 00:13:41,010 Speaker 2: in our work, we are actually trying to transit our 320 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:44,979 Speaker 2: identity as well, our vocational identity, our work identity. So 321 00:13:44,989 --> 00:13:47,020 Speaker 2: when we are not able to attach something to it, 322 00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:49,348 Speaker 2: to their work identity, we get a bit worried and 323 00:13:49,359 --> 00:13:52,239 Speaker 2: then the self doubt will naturally creep in with the 324 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:55,549 Speaker 2: added rejections. I think it increases the self doubt even 325 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,690 Speaker 2: more and it really starts to maybe create some negative 326 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,789 Speaker 2: spirals in the way we think. And it's really a 327 00:14:00,799 --> 00:14:02,020 Speaker 2: negative spiral because 328 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,179 Speaker 2: I've seen how good capable people with good experiences 329 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,020 Speaker 2: when they get into this spiral, they just can't help 330 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:12,150 Speaker 2: themselves out of it and it spills over into their 331 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: performance at job interviews. And we will tend to call this, 332 00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:17,289 Speaker 2: like sometimes they are like leaking. When I say leaking, 333 00:14:17,299 --> 00:14:20,609 Speaker 2: it is like emotionally, it comes out when the recruiter 334 00:14:20,619 --> 00:14:22,940 Speaker 2: or the hr are interviewing you, they are trying to 335 00:14:22,950 --> 00:14:27,969 Speaker 2: pick out the most obvious or the most significant or insignificant, 336 00:14:27,979 --> 00:14:30,219 Speaker 2: even things about you. They are trying to see whether 337 00:14:30,229 --> 00:14:32,789 Speaker 2: is there anything wrong with you. So when they start 338 00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:34,700 Speaker 2: to find out, of course, the other part of it 339 00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:35,580 Speaker 2: is they want to find out what you can 340 00:14:35,674 --> 00:14:37,455 Speaker 2: do, but they also were trying to assess, is there 341 00:14:37,465 --> 00:14:39,994 Speaker 2: anything that I need to know of any red flags? Yeah. 342 00:14:40,005 --> 00:14:42,695 Speaker 2: So they are trying to figure that out and sometimes 343 00:14:42,705 --> 00:14:44,864 Speaker 2: they might ask a little bit more, they might ask 344 00:14:44,875 --> 00:14:47,395 Speaker 2: a bit more like, how come you have not been 345 00:14:47,405 --> 00:14:49,645 Speaker 2: able to get a job for some time? So that 346 00:14:49,655 --> 00:14:52,684 Speaker 2: question could send someone into, you know, even 347 00:14:52,695 --> 00:14:53,174 Speaker 2: worse. 348 00:14:53,525 --> 00:14:54,664 Speaker 1: Right. I'm 349 00:14:54,674 --> 00:14:55,695 Speaker 1: asking that myself. 350 00:14:55,715 --> 00:14:57,405 Speaker 2: Yeah, they could start to leak and they might start 351 00:14:57,414 --> 00:14:59,715 Speaker 2: to say a bit more than they should say. And 352 00:14:59,724 --> 00:15:01,934 Speaker 2: then after that, the hr person might just think, oh, 353 00:15:01,945 --> 00:15:04,445 Speaker 2: you're not ready, you're not ready to hit the ground running. 354 00:15:04,455 --> 00:15:04,614 Speaker 2: So 355 00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:06,500 Speaker 2: maybe somebody else would be better. 356 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Actually, 357 00:15:07,289 --> 00:15:09,489 Speaker 1: I can totally relate to what Jared was saying right 358 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,859 Speaker 1: about work being part of your identity. Because actually, throughout 359 00:15:12,869 --> 00:15:14,539 Speaker 1: this phase, I realized that a huge part of my 360 00:15:14,549 --> 00:15:16,729 Speaker 1: identity is my job because you spend a lot of 361 00:15:16,739 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: your time at work with your colleagues and things like that. 362 00:15:19,559 --> 00:15:22,750 Speaker 1: So, you know, during this very extended career break, I 363 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,140 Speaker 1: found myself to be quite free most of the time. 364 00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:26,919 Speaker 1: So I was going through that phase where, oh my God, 365 00:15:26,929 --> 00:15:30,239 Speaker 1: all my friends are working and I'm kind of just 366 00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:32,859 Speaker 1: not really doing much. So actually what I did was 367 00:15:32,869 --> 00:15:36,539 Speaker 1: I tried to focus on creating a routine. So for example, 368 00:15:36,549 --> 00:15:38,229 Speaker 1: like I go to the gym every day in the 369 00:15:38,239 --> 00:15:41,969 Speaker 1: morning at eight AMI will meet a friend or somebody 370 00:15:41,979 --> 00:15:44,429 Speaker 1: that I actually connected with on linkedin for like a 371 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:45,330 Speaker 1: coffee chat and things like that. 372 00:15:45,789 --> 00:15:48,179 Speaker 1: And I also just recently in the past 1.5 to 373 00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:51,070 Speaker 1: 2 months, I started using Coursera again to pick up 374 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: some skills. Coursera is a training program. Yeah. So it's 375 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:57,820 Speaker 1: actually an online platform that allows you to upskill yourself. OK. Yeah. 376 00:15:57,830 --> 00:15:59,380 Speaker 1: So I was thinking up skills that I needed to 377 00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:01,530 Speaker 1: have to get into the industry that I wanted to 378 00:16:01,539 --> 00:16:02,309 Speaker 1: be in. Yeah, 379 00:16:02,450 --> 00:16:04,599 Speaker 2: you are creating a routine. Yeah, I think it's very 380 00:16:04,609 --> 00:16:06,900 Speaker 2: important you're taking care of yourself, right? You're taking care 381 00:16:06,909 --> 00:16:09,260 Speaker 2: of yourself even though there's no work to occupy you. 382 00:16:09,359 --> 00:16:11,150 Speaker 2: And this is where you start to realize that hey, 383 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,799 Speaker 2: if today I just double down on the job search 384 00:16:13,809 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: and then get more rejections. It is just going to 385 00:16:15,849 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: eat me up. So I should start maybe on the 386 00:16:18,289 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: other side, thinking of myself first, then bringing the healthy 387 00:16:21,330 --> 00:16:24,940 Speaker 2: side of me into the job application stages. I always 388 00:16:24,950 --> 00:16:27,109 Speaker 2: share with many people that a job search is not 389 00:16:27,119 --> 00:16:29,659 Speaker 2: a sprint, it's a marathon. So you got to take 390 00:16:29,669 --> 00:16:31,900 Speaker 2: regular breaks, you got to take care of yourself, you 391 00:16:31,909 --> 00:16:33,940 Speaker 2: got to go slow. The other thing that I often 392 00:16:33,950 --> 00:16:37,609 Speaker 2: observe is if someone is of a higher position, this 393 00:16:37,619 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: marathon 394 00:16:38,015 --> 00:16:39,354 Speaker 2: tends to be a bit longer. So 395 00:16:39,364 --> 00:16:40,635 Speaker 1: the wait is longer, 396 00:16:40,645 --> 00:16:43,565 Speaker 2: the wait is longer, right? Because when we look at 397 00:16:43,575 --> 00:16:46,844 Speaker 2: every company, the number of people in more senior roles, 398 00:16:46,854 --> 00:16:47,065 Speaker 2: I guess, 399 00:16:47,075 --> 00:16:49,005 Speaker 1: smaller, smaller pool. Yeah. 400 00:16:49,015 --> 00:16:51,434 Speaker 2: Correct. But we all want to aspire to climb up 401 00:16:51,445 --> 00:16:54,664 Speaker 2: as well. So you're not just competing with other people 402 00:16:54,674 --> 00:16:56,744 Speaker 2: for the senior role, you're competing with internal people who 403 00:16:56,755 --> 00:16:58,594 Speaker 2: are trying to move up to that role as well. 404 00:16:58,614 --> 00:17:01,854 Speaker 2: So that's why that marathon becomes a lot longer. And 405 00:17:01,864 --> 00:17:04,555 Speaker 2: I've seen many individuals that are senior positions, 406 00:17:04,848 --> 00:17:06,918 Speaker 2: they tend to have longer unemployment periods and they tend 407 00:17:06,928 --> 00:17:08,948 Speaker 2: to struggle a lot more as well, even with all 408 00:17:08,958 --> 00:17:10,848 Speaker 2: these auto rejection emails. Um 409 00:17:11,058 --> 00:17:13,629 Speaker 1: JIA Hui, what prompted you to go? Ok, I'm going 410 00:17:13,638 --> 00:17:16,638 Speaker 1: to write this linkedin post. I'm gonna be vulnerable, put 411 00:17:16,648 --> 00:17:18,788 Speaker 1: myself out there and tell people that 412 00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:22,189 Speaker 1: I am in the middle of it. It's tough. It's difficult. 413 00:17:22,199 --> 00:17:25,540 Speaker 1: We always talk about the successes. We always celebrate our successes. 414 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:28,150 Speaker 1: Why did you decide to put out something that is 415 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,069 Speaker 1: so vulnerable? Yeah. So actually I wrote a linkedin post 416 00:17:31,079 --> 00:17:33,109 Speaker 1: when I was sitting in the cafe, I was feeling 417 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: quite jaded in a sense because I was actually spending 418 00:17:35,530 --> 00:17:37,929 Speaker 1: a good 2 to 3 hours on job boards trying 419 00:17:37,939 --> 00:17:39,699 Speaker 1: to apply for roles. So it got to a point 420 00:17:39,709 --> 00:17:41,869 Speaker 1: where I just sat back and I was like, oh my, 421 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,109 Speaker 1: I'm actually quite tired. 422 00:17:43,849 --> 00:17:47,219 Speaker 1: So I actually decided like, ok, I think I want 423 00:17:47,229 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: to share how I feel my aim of it was 424 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:53,250 Speaker 1: to really relate to other job seekers who are actually 425 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:55,839 Speaker 1: trying to look for a job but are struggling to. Ok. Yeah. 426 00:17:55,849 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: And also kind of to let the linkedin community know, 427 00:17:58,689 --> 00:18:01,599 Speaker 1: like I'm trying to pivot to another space to another industry. 428 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,469 Speaker 1: And what was the response? Honestly speaking, it was really 429 00:18:04,479 --> 00:18:05,469 Speaker 1: quite crazy. 430 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,770 Speaker 1: I honestly did not really expect the post to blow up, right. Yeah. 431 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:12,909 Speaker 1: So overnight there was over, I would say 8000 likes 432 00:18:13,079 --> 00:18:15,369 Speaker 1: and lots of comments and things like that. So I 433 00:18:15,390 --> 00:18:18,949 Speaker 1: had many people reaching out to me via the inbox messaging. 434 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,819 Speaker 1: So they actually reach out to me to ask me 435 00:18:20,829 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: for coffee chats. 436 00:18:22,155 --> 00:18:26,234 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'm super thankful for the community actually. Yeah. 437 00:18:26,244 --> 00:18:28,744 Speaker 1: And so how's the job search right now? Yeah. So 438 00:18:28,755 --> 00:18:30,545 Speaker 1: I think for the past 2 to 3 weeks I 439 00:18:30,555 --> 00:18:33,895 Speaker 1: have been just meeting people, meeting so many people. Right. Yeah. 440 00:18:33,905 --> 00:18:36,864 Speaker 1: So it became from job hunt for, to meeting people for, 441 00:18:38,550 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: for an extrovert. That's quite a lot. So, like, it 442 00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:44,300 Speaker 1: got to a point where I was really thinking like 443 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:46,209 Speaker 1: is what I want, really what I want. 444 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:51,149 Speaker 1: You saw the entire medal offered to you? Yeah. So 445 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,810 Speaker 1: I got to a point where I was kind of 446 00:18:52,819 --> 00:18:55,189 Speaker 1: like saying yes to a lot of things like saying 447 00:18:55,199 --> 00:18:57,770 Speaker 1: yes to, you know, a lot of industries that I 448 00:18:57,780 --> 00:19:00,069 Speaker 1: actually wouldn't have considered in that sense. OK. But I 449 00:19:00,079 --> 00:19:03,189 Speaker 1: just wanted to expand my knowledge or my world view 450 00:19:03,199 --> 00:19:05,270 Speaker 1: in a sense. It made me a bit, I won't 451 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,260 Speaker 1: say fickle, but it made me really contemplate on what 452 00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:10,389 Speaker 1: was it that I really wanted to do? So I'm 453 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,189 Speaker 1: very thankful because I have a mentor and he actually 454 00:19:13,199 --> 00:19:14,849 Speaker 1: shared a post with me that he wrote 455 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: about making decisions. So about two weeks back, I created 456 00:19:18,729 --> 00:19:21,050 Speaker 1: an Excel sheet and I put up certain job offers 457 00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:23,609 Speaker 1: that I was really keen on and I actually listed 458 00:19:23,619 --> 00:19:26,780 Speaker 1: what are my priorities? OK. Yeah. And how does this 459 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:30,089 Speaker 1: roles or these companies actually can help me to achieve 460 00:19:30,099 --> 00:19:30,930 Speaker 1: my priorities? 461 00:19:31,459 --> 00:19:34,329 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I actually did that. It was clearer for you, right? 462 00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: Like a map for you in a sense and did 463 00:19:36,770 --> 00:19:39,079 Speaker 1: anything come out of that map? Yeah. So it helped 464 00:19:39,089 --> 00:19:42,430 Speaker 1: me to make my eventual decision? Oh, and you got 465 00:19:42,439 --> 00:19:44,599 Speaker 1: a job now? Yeah. So I actually just accepted a 466 00:19:44,609 --> 00:19:45,869 Speaker 1: job offer yesterday. 467 00:19:48,189 --> 00:19:49,209 Speaker 1: Congratulations. 468 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,709 Speaker 1: Congratulations. 469 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,989 Speaker 2: So, I think what J Hui did was exactly what's 470 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,540 Speaker 2: important is to identify the priorities for some people. Priorities 471 00:19:57,550 --> 00:20:00,020 Speaker 2: could look like finances could be one major factor and 472 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:01,429 Speaker 2: maybe other factors like 473 00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:04,630 Speaker 2: the job fit, whether the role is something that you 474 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 2: feel confident in every one of us, we have different priorities. 475 00:20:08,410 --> 00:20:10,209 Speaker 2: I think it's good to kind of lay that out. 476 00:20:10,349 --> 00:20:11,949 Speaker 2: And I like what job he said, right? Like how 477 00:20:11,959 --> 00:20:14,319 Speaker 2: would this job allow me to perform? How would this 478 00:20:14,329 --> 00:20:16,810 Speaker 2: job help me to grow? I think work is not 479 00:20:16,819 --> 00:20:20,310 Speaker 2: just about the pay, not just about providing finances for ourselves, 480 00:20:20,319 --> 00:20:22,869 Speaker 2: but it's about our growth as well because we spend 481 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,569 Speaker 2: so much time on the work, we need to see 482 00:20:24,579 --> 00:20:27,129 Speaker 2: ourselves growing. So picking the right opportunity 483 00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:30,219 Speaker 2: that makes the most of our abilities and also gives 484 00:20:30,229 --> 00:20:33,689 Speaker 2: us the longest runway to grow. I think it's very important. 485 00:20:33,699 --> 00:20:34,129 Speaker 1: So JIA 486 00:20:34,609 --> 00:20:37,069 Speaker 1: Hui, I really feel that you are very driven and 487 00:20:37,079 --> 00:20:39,140 Speaker 1: you know, if people ever say bad things about Gen Z, 488 00:20:39,150 --> 00:20:41,319 Speaker 1: I'll be like, no, I know a Gen Z who 489 00:20:41,329 --> 00:20:43,170 Speaker 1: is very driven and knows what she wants to do. 490 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:46,500 Speaker 1: She's very clear, but Gerald for anybody who's listening in, 491 00:20:46,510 --> 00:20:48,060 Speaker 1: what would be some good advice 492 00:20:48,369 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: as they are approaching job search. And also maybe even 493 00:20:51,589 --> 00:20:55,250 Speaker 1: when they are getting all these rejection emails from the system. Yeah, 494 00:20:55,459 --> 00:20:56,849 Speaker 2: I think we can learn a lot from what JIA 495 00:20:56,859 --> 00:20:58,849 Speaker 2: H did. You know the few things that she did 496 00:20:58,859 --> 00:21:02,109 Speaker 2: really well? And I wanted to emphasize on is firstly 497 00:21:02,239 --> 00:21:04,589 Speaker 2: to focus back on yourself. First to start to build 498 00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:07,669 Speaker 2: healthy routines, take care of your own physical needs, your 499 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:08,688 Speaker 2: own emotional needs, 500 00:21:08,989 --> 00:21:11,670 Speaker 2: and then start to plan out your job search by 501 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: being clearer about what are some of the roles that 502 00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:16,569 Speaker 2: you want to apply for? Like which she applied for 503 00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:18,329 Speaker 2: 100 plus 100 and 50 roles. But 504 00:21:18,589 --> 00:21:21,089 Speaker 2: they were not scattered. You know, she didn't just apply 505 00:21:21,099 --> 00:21:23,449 Speaker 2: for anything. She applied for roles that she felt she 506 00:21:23,459 --> 00:21:26,030 Speaker 2: wanted to do in tech sales. So she was very 507 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,219 Speaker 2: focused on what she wanted. So that's one good thing. 508 00:21:28,229 --> 00:21:30,329 Speaker 2: And then the other thing is to really put yourself 509 00:21:30,339 --> 00:21:33,910 Speaker 2: out there linkedin or social media or even just asking 510 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,300 Speaker 2: your family and your friends just sending out a message 511 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:38,969 Speaker 2: to them saying that I'm looking for certain opportunities in 512 00:21:38,979 --> 00:21:41,550 Speaker 2: this area. Would you know anybody who I can speak 513 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,219 Speaker 2: to a little bit more? I would say, don't ask 514 00:21:44,229 --> 00:21:45,650 Speaker 2: for a job, don't tell people, can you give me 515 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:47,079 Speaker 2: a job? I think people don't want to come 516 00:21:47,130 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: pressure. But if you could just reach out to people 517 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:51,250 Speaker 2: saying I'm looking for things like that would, you know, 518 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:55,030 Speaker 2: anyone or any place that could give me more information 519 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:56,790 Speaker 2: or I could just have coffee chat or just to 520 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,010 Speaker 2: learn a little bit more. This requires you to put 521 00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:02,030 Speaker 2: yourself out there. But this is really difficult for many 522 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,839 Speaker 2: of us who are going through that job search because 523 00:22:03,849 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: it can feel very lonely, like jh, she involved the 524 00:22:06,010 --> 00:22:09,500 Speaker 2: linkedin community and look what happened. Right. So that's something 525 00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:12,099 Speaker 2: that I would advocate for job seekers out there. Yeah. 526 00:22:12,109 --> 00:22:14,109 Speaker 1: And you know, what struck me the most through our 527 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,550 Speaker 1: conversations and 528 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:18,790 Speaker 1: reading your post is that I wish the A I 529 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,189 Speaker 1: board or whatever tracking system had a chance to meet you. 530 00:22:22,199 --> 00:22:24,579 Speaker 1: You know, JIA Hui, because my impression is that you 531 00:22:24,589 --> 00:22:27,310 Speaker 1: take on such a positive attitude about stuff, you are 532 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:29,790 Speaker 1: very driven and you're very willing to learn, you know, 533 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 1: you're not afraid to start somewhere even if it's at 534 00:22:32,729 --> 00:22:35,889 Speaker 1: the bottom. And that I think is for me, more 535 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:38,790 Speaker 1: than I can ask for, for a team member. You know, 536 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:39,390 Speaker 1: like I would 537 00:22:39,464 --> 00:22:41,785 Speaker 1: love to have somebody like you as part of my team. 538 00:22:41,795 --> 00:22:44,305 Speaker 1: So I hope that even as we are involving A 539 00:22:44,314 --> 00:22:47,425 Speaker 1: I in a lot of our workplace decisions and tools 540 00:22:47,435 --> 00:22:48,994 Speaker 1: that we are using. I hope that we can also 541 00:22:49,005 --> 00:22:53,045 Speaker 1: train A I to look beyond the words on the resume. 542 00:22:53,055 --> 00:22:54,484 Speaker 1: I don't know how we're going to do it, but 543 00:22:54,494 --> 00:22:58,005 Speaker 1: I'm sure the smarter people can figure it out. So, 544 00:22:58,175 --> 00:23:00,675 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on our podcast and 545 00:23:00,685 --> 00:23:01,464 Speaker 1: sharing a story, 546 00:23:01,474 --> 00:23:02,314 Speaker 2: Jared. Thank 547 00:23:02,324 --> 00:23:02,844 Speaker 1: you. 548 00:23:07,079 --> 00:23:10,579 Speaker 1: Hi, we're back. This is our ask me anything segment 549 00:23:10,589 --> 00:23:13,739 Speaker 1: where I give Gerald a work related question and he'll 550 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:17,540 Speaker 1: help us. So strap in, we're gonna get some good advice, Gerald. 551 00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: Have you ever had a micromanaging boss? 552 00:23:20,930 --> 00:23:22,969 Speaker 1: Because what if I have one? How should I deal 553 00:23:22,979 --> 00:23:25,329 Speaker 1: with this person? I want to know. Are there any 554 00:23:25,339 --> 00:23:26,030 Speaker 1: hot tips? 555 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,929 Speaker 2: Wow. I think micromanaging bosses, that is the whole topic 556 00:23:28,939 --> 00:23:32,380 Speaker 2: by itself. I think we all have had such encounters before. 557 00:23:32,609 --> 00:23:34,429 Speaker 2: And I think really it's about work styles. 558 00:23:34,439 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: Why do people 559 00:23:35,050 --> 00:23:35,939 Speaker 1: even micromanage in 560 00:23:35,949 --> 00:23:36,589 Speaker 1: the first place? 561 00:23:36,599 --> 00:23:38,770 Speaker 2: I think it's a matter of control. So micromanaging is 562 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:40,819 Speaker 2: usually there's a strong need for control 563 00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:44,229 Speaker 2: and it comes out as very excessive attention to detail. Ok, 564 00:23:44,239 --> 00:23:46,390 Speaker 1: which is good, right? Excessive attention to detail. 565 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,708 Speaker 2: Yeah. But when you're working with someone who maybe needs 566 00:23:49,719 --> 00:23:53,419 Speaker 2: that space of the autonomy or the flexibility to do things, 567 00:23:53,630 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 2: then sometimes it crashes the styles. So it could also 568 00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: be coming from a place of a need for perfection, 569 00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:02,790 Speaker 2: very high need for a sense of excellence and this 570 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,420 Speaker 2: maybe irrational fear of failure. Ok. So sometimes it's not 571 00:24:06,430 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 2: so healthy. I think we all can say that if 572 00:24:08,489 --> 00:24:11,540 Speaker 2: today micromanaging is there are healthy levels of it and 573 00:24:11,550 --> 00:24:13,649 Speaker 2: sometimes there are maybe not so healthy levels of it. 574 00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:15,930 Speaker 1: Ok. So what is a healthy level of micromanaging. 575 00:24:15,939 --> 00:24:19,290 Speaker 2: So like for example, having standards, communicating standards and then 576 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,819 Speaker 2: building the team up to work towards those standards is great. 577 00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 2: But when it becomes unhealthy, it could look like when 578 00:24:24,729 --> 00:24:26,859 Speaker 2: someone is not performing in a team, you double down 579 00:24:26,869 --> 00:24:27,969 Speaker 2: on the sense of control 580 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,459 Speaker 2: just so that you make sure that the result is 581 00:24:30,469 --> 00:24:34,550 Speaker 2: hopefully positive, it could even spiral down to totally doing 582 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,069 Speaker 2: everything yourself. So that's where it becomes a trust issue, 583 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:40,729 Speaker 2: control issue because you don't trust your team anymore. You're 584 00:24:40,739 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: doing all the work yourself, you're pulling all the late 585 00:24:42,930 --> 00:24:46,829 Speaker 2: nighters working over weekends, not being collaborative with your team 586 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: while this is punishing to yourself, your team feels left 587 00:24:49,530 --> 00:24:51,290 Speaker 2: out and then they can't do their job as well 588 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:52,260 Speaker 2: so they can't contribute. 589 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: So this is really one of the very dire forms 590 00:24:55,569 --> 00:24:56,500 Speaker 2: of micromanaging. 591 00:24:56,510 --> 00:25:00,659 Speaker 1: Is it possible that micromanagers see it as, I don't 592 00:25:00,670 --> 00:25:03,500 Speaker 1: want my team to work so hard and because I'm 593 00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:05,969 Speaker 1: leading the team, I'm, you know, maybe I'm getting paid 594 00:25:05,979 --> 00:25:09,290 Speaker 1: more than them. I should be doing more work. Wow, 595 00:25:09,530 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: I don't know whether there's anybody who really think that 596 00:25:11,290 --> 00:25:12,938 Speaker 2: way that they don't mind to do more work for 597 00:25:12,949 --> 00:25:14,750 Speaker 2: the same pay. But I do feel like 598 00:25:15,140 --> 00:25:17,839 Speaker 2: a lot of times for micro managers, they may not 599 00:25:17,849 --> 00:25:20,819 Speaker 2: know that they are micromanaging. They may think that their 600 00:25:20,829 --> 00:25:24,609 Speaker 2: management style is good. It is practical, it gets the results. 601 00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:28,319 Speaker 2: Maybe in some companies, they even like such management styles, 602 00:25:28,369 --> 00:25:30,939 Speaker 2: they say that if you micromanage, you get the results right? 603 00:25:30,949 --> 00:25:34,250 Speaker 2: You are reliable. So maybe it's also advocated or rather 604 00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: honored 605 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,810 Speaker 2: some of these works styles. There are companies that are 606 00:25:36,819 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: like that, their cultures are like that. So it can 607 00:25:39,050 --> 00:25:40,419 Speaker 2: be seen as a good thing. But I think in 608 00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: the long run it might not be healthy. 609 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. So 610 00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:45,459 Speaker 1: if I have a micro manager, how do I manage them? 611 00:25:45,469 --> 00:25:48,020 Speaker 1: Then are there sort of tips or steps you can 612 00:25:48,030 --> 00:25:48,989 Speaker 1: help me with? Yeah, 613 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,329 Speaker 2: if today you have a micromanager, communication is really important. 614 00:25:52,469 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: You need to 615 00:25:53,295 --> 00:25:56,545 Speaker 2: assure your manager a little bit more about your areas 616 00:25:56,555 --> 00:25:59,265 Speaker 2: of work. You need to reassure your manager that you 617 00:25:59,275 --> 00:26:02,784 Speaker 2: can deliver on time and also maybe communicate that what 618 00:26:02,795 --> 00:26:05,064 Speaker 2: you need to be successful instead of saying, you know, 619 00:26:05,074 --> 00:26:07,274 Speaker 2: get off my back, you might want to say like 620 00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:09,724 Speaker 2: I need you to stop. I need more time to 621 00:26:09,734 --> 00:26:11,425 Speaker 2: think through some of the work that's given 622 00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:13,530 Speaker 2: and I will only come to you like maybe a 623 00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:17,540 Speaker 2: week later. I can't give you updates every day. For example, 624 00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:21,030 Speaker 2: if today the micromanaging boss is asking for daily updates, right? 625 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,510 Speaker 2: So I think trying to broker for that space can 626 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,109 Speaker 2: be quite healthy. And then the manager, if they feel like, ok, 627 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,089 Speaker 2: you know, based on our work relationship, I can trust 628 00:26:29,099 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: you and this is what you 629 00:26:30,329 --> 00:26:32,209 Speaker 2: need to be successful. Let's give it a go I 630 00:26:32,219 --> 00:26:34,790 Speaker 2: think then that's where it can be good. But of course, 631 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,948 Speaker 2: there are times that, you know, it's not possible. The 632 00:26:36,959 --> 00:26:38,859 Speaker 2: medical manager says no, it has to be this way 633 00:26:39,339 --> 00:26:41,438 Speaker 2: because everybody is doing it this way. So you have 634 00:26:41,449 --> 00:26:43,310 Speaker 2: to do it this way. So I think in that case, 635 00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:45,579 Speaker 2: you really might have to say that working for someone 636 00:26:45,589 --> 00:26:47,989 Speaker 2: like that could be really difficult. You might want to 637 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:48,790 Speaker 2: consider 638 00:26:49,099 --> 00:26:52,728 Speaker 2: maybe other options. If today this is affecting you a lot. 639 00:26:52,750 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: So quit, maybe quit or look for something else, but 640 00:26:56,219 --> 00:26:59,020 Speaker 2: only if this is affecting you a lot, right? Because 641 00:26:59,030 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: I do believe all of us, we have that buffer 642 00:27:01,170 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: of flexibility where we can flex ourselves, either way we 643 00:27:04,569 --> 00:27:06,839 Speaker 2: can adapt ourselves to a certain extent. So we want 644 00:27:06,849 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 2: to see how much of an extent can you fit 645 00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:12,419 Speaker 2: this kind of working styles, right? And maybe give the 646 00:27:12,430 --> 00:27:14,660 Speaker 2: person a chance, maybe it's no for now. But slowly 647 00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: as you build a credibility 648 00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:18,420 Speaker 2: and you build a track record, this person will get 649 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:20,500 Speaker 2: to know, you get to understand you and know that 650 00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:23,030 Speaker 2: you are on their team, you're not outdoors, hard, them 651 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,099 Speaker 2: to succeed. Because remember they have this need for control 652 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,050 Speaker 2: and excellence, right? I think if they know that you 653 00:27:28,060 --> 00:27:29,829 Speaker 2: are on the same team as them, that you want 654 00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:32,229 Speaker 2: the same things over time, they might be willing to 655 00:27:32,239 --> 00:27:34,770 Speaker 2: let go of certain parts so that the relationship can better. 656 00:27:34,780 --> 00:27:35,329 Speaker 1: Yeah. And 657 00:27:35,339 --> 00:27:38,300 Speaker 1: I also have one hot tip as well over communicate. 658 00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:39,419 Speaker 1: So it's almost like 659 00:27:39,515 --> 00:27:41,854 Speaker 1: before you ask me if the job is done, I 660 00:27:41,864 --> 00:27:44,185 Speaker 1: tell you, oh, by the way I did this already. 661 00:27:44,194 --> 00:27:46,604 Speaker 1: So this is done. So it gives them, I feel like, 662 00:27:46,614 --> 00:27:48,525 Speaker 1: because you're telling me the sense of control is very 663 00:27:48,535 --> 00:27:51,984 Speaker 1: high for them, allows them to, you know, go, ok. 664 00:27:52,084 --> 00:27:54,915 Speaker 1: I know now that this is done and I don't 665 00:27:54,925 --> 00:27:58,135 Speaker 1: have to worry about it. Ok? Cool. And like you say, 666 00:27:58,145 --> 00:28:00,844 Speaker 1: you know, if you can't handle your micromanaging boss and 667 00:28:00,854 --> 00:28:02,614 Speaker 1: it's getting too difficult for you, 668 00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:05,060 Speaker 1: go out and find another boss. 669 00:28:05,069 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really the last option because 670 00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:09,500 Speaker 2: we don't want people to live like that. But 671 00:28:09,819 --> 00:28:11,739 Speaker 2: sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. 672 00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:12,699 Speaker 1: True. 673 00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: Well, we hope you found this conversation helpful to you. 674 00:28:15,410 --> 00:28:17,958 Speaker 1: Let us know if you have any feedback again. We're 675 00:28:17,969 --> 00:28:20,469 Speaker 1: on our usual CN a social channels or you can 676 00:28:20,479 --> 00:28:23,429 Speaker 1: leave a comment on Spotify. Remember to send us your 677 00:28:23,439 --> 00:28:26,670 Speaker 1: burning question for Gerald and I'll help you ask them 678 00:28:26,949 --> 00:28:29,839 Speaker 1: the team behind the work it podcast is Christina Robert, 679 00:28:29,849 --> 00:28:34,510 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Jaini, Johari, Sa Winn and no, Faii Hari. 680 00:28:34,530 --> 00:28:34,829 Speaker 1: This 681 00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: is Tiffany 682 00:28:35,530 --> 00:28:38,079 Speaker 2: and I'm Gerald. Wishing you a good work week ahead.