1 00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:02,519 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:05,090 --> 00:00:07,849 Speaker 1: Welcome to the C N A correspondent podcast where we 3 00:00:07,860 --> 00:00:10,649 Speaker 1: dive deeper into the big stories and give you insight 4 00:00:10,659 --> 00:00:14,140 Speaker 1: on the most pressing issues across Asia and beyond. In 5 00:00:14,149 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: this episode, you'll hear about the global security risks that 6 00:00:16,930 --> 00:00:19,878 Speaker 1: came to the fore at the 20th, Shangri La dialogue 7 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: leaders and officials from more than 40 countries have begun 8 00:00:23,690 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: arriving here in Singapore for Asia's highest level defense summit. 9 00:00:28,299 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: Asia's premier events gathering took place in early June and 10 00:00:31,010 --> 00:00:34,970 Speaker 1: it provided an opportunity for allies and adversaries to engage 11 00:00:34,979 --> 00:00:38,348 Speaker 1: in dialogue in the interest of peace. Though not all 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,889 Speaker 1: chose to take it. A US. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin 13 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:45,699 Speaker 1: says it's quote unfortunate that his Chinese counterpart has declined 14 00:00:45,709 --> 00:00:48,669 Speaker 1: to meet him at the Shan dialogue in Singapore this week. 15 00:00:48,819 --> 00:00:52,310 Speaker 1: Mr Austin says both countries need to communicate to prevent 16 00:00:52,319 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: dangerous encounters between military aircraft. 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,130 Speaker 1: That statement followed two military close shaves first, a Chinese 18 00:00:59,139 --> 00:01:02,069 Speaker 1: jet buzzed an American plane over the South China Sea. 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,179 Speaker 1: Then a Chinese warship cut into the path of a 20 00:01:05,190 --> 00:01:07,230 Speaker 1: US destroyer in the Taiwan Strait. 21 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:10,069 Speaker 1: Our correspondent Jeremy co is a veteran reporter of the 22 00:01:10,309 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: LA dialogue he covered the latest edition and joins me 23 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:15,610 Speaker 1: now to talk you through it, Jeremy. I want to 24 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:18,250 Speaker 1: get your thoughts on China's refusal to meet with the 25 00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:21,699 Speaker 1: US officials and also the two military close calls. But first, 26 00:01:22,050 --> 00:01:24,129 Speaker 1: can you give us a quick overview of the Shangri 27 00:01:24,169 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: LA dialogue and remind us of its significance in the region? Well, 28 00:01:27,129 --> 00:01:29,620 Speaker 1: the Shangri LA dialogue is an annual gathering of defense 29 00:01:29,629 --> 00:01:33,690 Speaker 1: ministers and it's the most important platform that provides countries 30 00:01:33,699 --> 00:01:36,419 Speaker 1: about 40 countries, uh slightly more than 40 countries that 31 00:01:36,430 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: take part every year with an avenue to engage in 32 00:01:39,169 --> 00:01:41,970 Speaker 1: dialogue that would not have been possible according to what 33 00:01:41,980 --> 00:01:45,429 Speaker 1: analysts have been saying. So this can not only prevent 34 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,260 Speaker 1: conflict from taking place, it can also help to inform 35 00:01:48,269 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: policy making 36 00:01:49,620 --> 00:01:52,809 Speaker 1: and senior officials from for instance, this time around senior 37 00:01:52,819 --> 00:01:56,139 Speaker 1: officials from about two dozen of the world's major intelligence 38 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:58,870 Speaker 1: agency held a secret meeting on the fringes of the 39 00:01:58,879 --> 00:02:02,410 Speaker 1: Shang dialogue. That's according to some reports as well. Now 40 00:02:02,419 --> 00:02:05,169 Speaker 1: officials from China and the US who are, you know 41 00:02:05,180 --> 00:02:07,690 Speaker 1: under the spot like this time around as with all 42 00:02:07,699 --> 00:02:10,089 Speaker 1: other Shan dialogue sessions, they were among the two dozen 43 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,139 Speaker 1: of the world's major intelligence agencies that held a secret 44 00:02:13,149 --> 00:02:15,270 Speaker 1: meeting on the sidelines of the the dialogue. 45 00:02:15,529 --> 00:02:18,740 Speaker 1: And according to some analysts, you know, there is an 46 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:22,710 Speaker 1: unspoken code about how these intelligence services work, you know, 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,769 Speaker 1: when formal and open diplomacy is hard, you know, there 48 00:02:25,779 --> 00:02:28,470 Speaker 1: are all these other dialogues that take place on the 49 00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:31,660 Speaker 1: sidelines of major events and this dialogue in a way 50 00:02:31,669 --> 00:02:34,789 Speaker 1: helps to facilitate a meeting such as that. Ok, so 51 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,179 Speaker 1: when you are saying that even if outwardly they don't 52 00:02:37,190 --> 00:02:40,220 Speaker 1: want to talk, there are still talks going lower levels 53 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: at lower levels. Ok. 54 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:43,779 Speaker 1: And do we know what those talks involve when it 55 00:02:43,788 --> 00:02:47,169 Speaker 1: comes to security issues? No, it's top secret. I've been 56 00:02:47,179 --> 00:02:49,619 Speaker 1: reading the reports and there haven't been, you know, a 57 00:02:49,630 --> 00:02:52,539 Speaker 1: lot of information that's come out from those talks as well. 58 00:02:52,550 --> 00:02:56,460 Speaker 1: But presumably us China tensions, Ukraine War. These are the 59 00:02:56,470 --> 00:02:59,589 Speaker 1: issues that will come out Taiwan as well. Ok. And 60 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,410 Speaker 1: if we come back then to the main key themes 61 00:03:01,419 --> 00:03:03,770 Speaker 1: and topics that are discussed openly and speak 62 00:03:03,845 --> 00:03:07,005 Speaker 1: is being made and discussion sessions and such a lot 63 00:03:07,014 --> 00:03:09,553 Speaker 1: of those topics will be the same, won't they? Of course, 64 00:03:09,565 --> 00:03:12,195 Speaker 1: I mean, take taking center stage at this year's event 65 00:03:12,205 --> 00:03:14,895 Speaker 1: like with all other dialogues in recent years is the 66 00:03:14,904 --> 00:03:17,804 Speaker 1: US China rivalry ahead of the summit. We we know 67 00:03:17,815 --> 00:03:19,913 Speaker 1: that China has rejected us efforts to set up a 68 00:03:19,925 --> 00:03:22,964 Speaker 1: meeting between the US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, as well 69 00:03:22,975 --> 00:03:26,794 Speaker 1: as Li Shang, which is the Chinese counterpart. So Beijing 70 00:03:26,804 --> 00:03:31,115 Speaker 1: says that Washington should show sincerity and create necessary conditions 71 00:03:31,125 --> 00:03:31,774 Speaker 1: for dialogue. 72 00:03:32,059 --> 00:03:35,850 Speaker 1: And despite all that, there is no substantive meeting between 73 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:38,690 Speaker 1: both men, but there was a shaking of hands, you know, 74 00:03:38,699 --> 00:03:41,649 Speaker 1: on the sidelines of one of the events on Friday, 75 00:03:41,660 --> 00:03:43,509 Speaker 1: which is the first day of the Shang dialogue. You 76 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,949 Speaker 1: mentioned a handshake that took place between us. Defense Secretary 77 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:48,449 Speaker 1: Lloyd Austin and China's Defense Minister 78 00:03:49,274 --> 00:03:50,934 Speaker 1: during the opening dinner. Were you in the room when 79 00:03:50,945 --> 00:03:54,164 Speaker 1: that happened? No, I wasn't unfortunately, but uh I've seen 80 00:03:54,175 --> 00:03:57,705 Speaker 1: pictures and videos of that. Uh Well, that that meeting 81 00:03:57,714 --> 00:04:01,315 Speaker 1: isn't entirely unexpected. I mean, it's more surprising if they 82 00:04:01,324 --> 00:04:03,925 Speaker 1: took pains to really avoid each other during the three 83 00:04:03,934 --> 00:04:06,735 Speaker 1: day session. Having said that though. I mean, just a 84 00:04:06,744 --> 00:04:09,675 Speaker 1: handshake that's not substantive at all. It's just uh you know, 85 00:04:09,684 --> 00:04:11,324 Speaker 1: a very cordial greeting. 86 00:04:11,589 --> 00:04:13,589 Speaker 1: So we shouldn't read too much in, we shouldn't read 87 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,830 Speaker 1: too much. I mean, I've spoken to some analysts ahead 88 00:04:15,839 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: of the dialogue. They said that even if they do 89 00:04:17,850 --> 00:04:21,420 Speaker 1: meet just shaking hands, it doesn't mean the tensions have eased. 90 00:04:21,428 --> 00:04:23,808 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, the two men being polite. So 91 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: we knew that uh us China rivalry was going to 92 00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:28,299 Speaker 1: dominate the talks ahead of the summit. 93 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: So if you talk about whether we're surprised by what's happening, 94 00:04:33,209 --> 00:04:35,269 Speaker 1: I think we'll be more surprised if there had been 95 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,339 Speaker 1: a big breakthrough because us China tensions are at the 96 00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:42,260 Speaker 1: lowest point in decades with all that's going on. China's 97 00:04:42,269 --> 00:04:46,130 Speaker 1: Human Rights records, Taiwan China's position on Ukraine, et cetera, 98 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:49,010 Speaker 1: et cetera. So we expected that there would be no 99 00:04:49,019 --> 00:04:53,299 Speaker 1: breakthrough in some ways, Lloyd Austin's speech was less pointed 100 00:04:53,309 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: than last year both countries were basically trading BS at 101 00:04:56,049 --> 00:04:56,709 Speaker 1: each other. 102 00:04:56,988 --> 00:05:00,488 Speaker 1: So why there wasn't a meeting? The US clearly wanted one. 103 00:05:00,529 --> 00:05:04,369 Speaker 1: But China demanded that the Washington lift sanctions imposed in 104 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: 2018 on Li Shang Fu for procuring Russian weapons. And 105 00:05:09,170 --> 00:05:12,609 Speaker 1: experts have said that Beijing sees communication as something that 106 00:05:12,619 --> 00:05:15,269 Speaker 1: should happen only when ties are good. Whereas the US 107 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: sees communication as something that should happen when ties are 108 00:05:18,809 --> 00:05:20,660 Speaker 1: bad to prevent things from going on. So 109 00:05:20,755 --> 00:05:23,295 Speaker 1: receive two visions that are happening. So let's listen to 110 00:05:23,303 --> 00:05:27,885 Speaker 1: what a Chinese official has to say the US has 111 00:05:27,894 --> 00:05:31,493 Speaker 1: been strengthening its military presence in the Asia Pacific region, 112 00:05:31,535 --> 00:05:37,604 Speaker 1: consolidating bilateral military alliances and beefing the or trilateral partnership, 113 00:05:37,613 --> 00:05:41,084 Speaker 1: the Quad and the Five Eyes Alliance. The US also 114 00:05:41,095 --> 00:05:45,414 Speaker 1: previously claimed to change China's strategic environment. What should we 115 00:05:45,424 --> 00:05:47,344 Speaker 1: call this other than confrontation 116 00:05:47,579 --> 00:05:50,928 Speaker 1: having created chaos in the Middle East and brought instability 117 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:55,410 Speaker 1: to Europe is the US trying to destabilize the Asia Pacific. 118 00:05:55,420 --> 00:05:57,390 Speaker 1: We will never allow this to happen. 119 00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:01,929 Speaker 1: So clearly two different visions of how communication works. The 120 00:06:01,940 --> 00:06:05,519 Speaker 1: US wanting communications when times are bad. China only wanting 121 00:06:05,529 --> 00:06:08,019 Speaker 1: to communicate when things have improved. So where does that 122 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:11,529 Speaker 1: leave things now? Especially following those two near misses that 123 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:13,459 Speaker 1: we saw in the Taiwan Strait and above the South 124 00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:16,549 Speaker 1: China Sea. Well, clearly ties remain very tense and they 125 00:06:16,559 --> 00:06:20,450 Speaker 1: will remain tense for the foreseeable future. There's a lot 126 00:06:20,459 --> 00:06:23,660 Speaker 1: of distrust at the military level as we've seen over 127 00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:24,959 Speaker 1: you know, the Shangri La weekend. 128 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: Chinese defense minister issued a very vivid warning to unfriendly 129 00:06:28,609 --> 00:06:32,100 Speaker 1: warships sailing through the Taiwan Strait. He used a very 130 00:06:32,109 --> 00:06:35,010 Speaker 1: well known Chinese song which goes something like that. When 131 00:06:35,019 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: friends visit us, we welcome them with fine wine and 132 00:06:37,649 --> 00:06:41,459 Speaker 1: when jackals or wolves come, we will face them with shotguns. 133 00:06:41,670 --> 00:06:45,928 Speaker 1: So very very pointed words, even though he cited some 134 00:06:45,940 --> 00:06:49,570 Speaker 1: lyrics so clearly times will not improve at a military level. 135 00:06:49,579 --> 00:06:51,149 Speaker 1: But even having said that 136 00:06:51,750 --> 00:06:55,109 Speaker 1: even though defense dialogue has stalled us, China, economic talks 137 00:06:55,119 --> 00:06:58,670 Speaker 1: have resumed. The US Commerce Secretary has met with her 138 00:06:58,678 --> 00:07:02,238 Speaker 1: Chinese counterpart in Washington, that was the first bilateral cabinet 139 00:07:02,250 --> 00:07:06,959 Speaker 1: level encounter since the spy balloon incident in February. And 140 00:07:06,970 --> 00:07:09,850 Speaker 1: that just came days after President Joe Biden stressed that 141 00:07:09,859 --> 00:07:12,619 Speaker 1: a thaw in bilateral relations would occur soon. 142 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:15,820 Speaker 1: We also know that the CIA director visited China last 143 00:07:15,829 --> 00:07:18,790 Speaker 1: month for talks with his Chinese counterparts. So clearly on 144 00:07:18,799 --> 00:07:20,929 Speaker 1: some levels, there's some sort of dialogue that's taking place 145 00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: just not at a military level. Yeah, it does seem 146 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:25,220 Speaker 1: to be one of those things where one week something 147 00:07:25,230 --> 00:07:28,089 Speaker 1: might happen, but in a positive sense and the following week, 148 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: there's a bit of a 149 00:07:28,730 --> 00:07:30,339 Speaker 1: set back. So we're just sort of watching the to 150 00:07:30,350 --> 00:07:33,369 Speaker 1: and fro and the back and forth as this unfolds 151 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,450 Speaker 1: next on C N A correspondent, I'll ask Jeremy about 152 00:07:36,459 --> 00:07:39,260 Speaker 1: how other countries not just in Asia view the Taiwan 153 00:07:39,269 --> 00:07:41,959 Speaker 1: issue and the implications of the Ukraine war and its 154 00:07:41,970 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: impact on the region's security and stability. 155 00:07:50,329 --> 00:07:52,809 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. My name is Steven Xia and I'm host 156 00:07:52,820 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: of C N A S weekly news podcast. Heart of 157 00:07:55,209 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 2: the matter. Now, each week my job is to ask 158 00:07:57,570 --> 00:08:00,279 Speaker 2: questions you have. Like, why is the C O E 159 00:08:00,290 --> 00:08:04,549 Speaker 2: so high? Why aren't singles dating or what is going 160 00:08:04,559 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: on with the red hot property 161 00:08:06,075 --> 00:08:09,804 Speaker 2: market in Singapore? If you want the views behind the news, 162 00:08:09,815 --> 00:08:12,114 Speaker 2: then tune in each week as we get to the 163 00:08:12,125 --> 00:08:14,195 Speaker 2: heart of the matter, we are on the C N 164 00:08:14,204 --> 00:08:16,804 Speaker 2: A and me listen apps and wherever you get your 165 00:08:16,815 --> 00:08:20,244 Speaker 2: podcasts hit follow or subscribe. So you don't miss an 166 00:08:20,255 --> 00:08:21,725 Speaker 2: episode when it drops, 167 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,989 Speaker 1: you're back with me, Steve and C N A correspondent 168 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: featuring Jeremy Koh. And we'll pick up with the Taiwan question, Jeremy. 169 00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:38,030 Speaker 1: We can't mention the China Us relationship without mentioning Taiwan. 170 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,099 Speaker 1: But the summit was an opportunity for other countries to 171 00:08:41,109 --> 00:08:44,460 Speaker 1: voice their concerns over security of the strait. What was 172 00:08:44,469 --> 00:08:45,270 Speaker 1: their consensus? 173 00:08:45,919 --> 00:08:48,289 Speaker 1: There was no consensus? I mean, if you listen to 174 00:08:48,299 --> 00:08:51,710 Speaker 1: what Chinese Defense Minister Li Xu was saying his focus 175 00:08:51,719 --> 00:08:55,770 Speaker 1: on Taiwan, according to some analysts reflects Beijing's concerns over 176 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:59,859 Speaker 1: the increasing international focus on cross strait issues in particularly Taiwan. 177 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: So in his speech, he said that the Taiwan question 178 00:09:01,969 --> 00:09:04,809 Speaker 1: is a core interest and a Chinese internal affair that 179 00:09:04,820 --> 00:09:06,789 Speaker 1: brooks no interference from foreign forces. 180 00:09:07,229 --> 00:09:10,250 Speaker 1: That's not entirely new. We've heard that from various Chinese 181 00:09:10,260 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: officials over the years and he also took the opportunity 182 00:09:13,289 --> 00:09:15,939 Speaker 1: to take a very thinly veiled jab at the US. 183 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:19,500 Speaker 1: He complained about countries that raised tensions by repeatedly selling 184 00:09:19,510 --> 00:09:22,729 Speaker 1: arms to Taiwan, providing it with military training and upgrading 185 00:09:22,739 --> 00:09:24,780 Speaker 1: the level of official bilateral exchanges. 186 00:09:25,049 --> 00:09:27,859 Speaker 1: So clearly, these are things that China has been accusing 187 00:09:27,869 --> 00:09:30,409 Speaker 1: the US of doing for many many many years now. 188 00:09:30,419 --> 00:09:34,270 Speaker 1: So it's not entirely new at the dialogue. And on 189 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,289 Speaker 1: the other side, we've heard us, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin 190 00:09:37,299 --> 00:09:40,098 Speaker 1: saying that a war on Taiwan would be devastating and 191 00:09:40,109 --> 00:09:42,210 Speaker 1: it would affect the global economy in ways that we 192 00:09:42,219 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: cannot imagine 193 00:09:43,219 --> 00:09:46,229 Speaker 1: so clearly, once again, very different visions from both sides, 194 00:09:46,239 --> 00:09:49,549 Speaker 1: Lord Austin saying that conflict is neither imminent or inevitable 195 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,590 Speaker 1: and deterrence is very strong, whereas China is in a 196 00:09:52,599 --> 00:09:56,579 Speaker 1: way more strong about their remarks. Yeah, the bottom line 197 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:58,979 Speaker 1: of that though is that the the status quo of 198 00:09:58,989 --> 00:10:01,309 Speaker 1: how things are at the moment kind of works for both. 199 00:10:02,655 --> 00:10:05,044 Speaker 1: So while all this rhetoric goes on, there is an 200 00:10:05,054 --> 00:10:07,184 Speaker 1: incentive for both of them to to not push the 201 00:10:07,195 --> 00:10:09,814 Speaker 1: needle too far if you speak to analysts, I mean, 202 00:10:09,825 --> 00:10:12,994 Speaker 1: everyone says that both it's in both countries' interest to 203 00:10:13,005 --> 00:10:15,885 Speaker 1: maintain the status quo. But clearly, we've seen that status 204 00:10:15,895 --> 00:10:20,794 Speaker 1: quo moving towards some sort of confrontation that status quo 205 00:10:20,804 --> 00:10:23,843 Speaker 1: during the C MA summit in Singapore. For instance, there 206 00:10:23,854 --> 00:10:26,815 Speaker 1: was a fall in bilateral in cross relations then. 207 00:10:27,030 --> 00:10:30,829 Speaker 1: So ties were at the best in decades. Subsequently, after 208 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,659 Speaker 1: Trump came to power, after Joe Biden came to power, 209 00:10:33,669 --> 00:10:38,260 Speaker 1: particularly ties between both China and us have really, really plunged. 210 00:10:38,359 --> 00:10:41,819 Speaker 1: So the status quo today would really involve that one 211 00:10:41,830 --> 00:10:45,210 Speaker 1: China position, et cetera, et cetera. But we also see 212 00:10:45,219 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: a lot of movements in the Taiwan straits as well. 213 00:10:47,969 --> 00:10:51,070 Speaker 1: So that status quo is different from the status quo 214 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: say 10 years ago. Let's move to events further. A field. 215 00:10:54,409 --> 00:10:56,700 Speaker 1: Ukraine also featured heavily at the talks. In fact, 216 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,780 Speaker 1: there was a bigger than usual European contingent at the summit. 217 00:10:59,789 --> 00:11:00,488 Speaker 1: Why was that 218 00:11:01,219 --> 00:11:03,489 Speaker 1: European leaders were also in town and they, they were 219 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,909 Speaker 1: hoping to use the summit to mobilize support for Kiev. 220 00:11:06,919 --> 00:11:09,030 Speaker 1: The war in Ukraine has been going on for more 221 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:11,359 Speaker 1: than a year and they were hoping to mobilize support 222 00:11:11,369 --> 00:11:14,630 Speaker 1: for Kiev among Asian countries. And there were high profile 223 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,829 Speaker 1: grouping of officials including the Eu Foreign Policy Chief, the 224 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,239 Speaker 1: Ukrainian Defense Minister, the British Defense Minister and they were 225 00:11:21,250 --> 00:11:21,809 Speaker 1: all here 226 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:26,049 Speaker 1: this year's dialogue. And as you know, this Ukraine conflict 227 00:11:26,059 --> 00:11:28,799 Speaker 1: has been hovering as a specter as a backdrop of 228 00:11:28,809 --> 00:11:31,469 Speaker 1: all the meetings set in place last year. It was 229 00:11:31,479 --> 00:11:34,169 Speaker 1: overshadowed by the war because that was just about four 230 00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:37,150 Speaker 1: months after it took place. But this year, 1.5 years on, 231 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: it is not just about the war but also how 232 00:11:39,650 --> 00:11:41,650 Speaker 1: to move on from the war, how to end it 233 00:11:41,659 --> 00:11:42,299 Speaker 1: as well. 234 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,409 Speaker 1: So this is part of the broader geopolitical concerns in 235 00:11:46,419 --> 00:11:50,020 Speaker 1: Asia as well. And also countries here are also thinking 236 00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:53,169 Speaker 1: the Ukraine conflict is also reshaped the thinking of several 237 00:11:53,179 --> 00:11:56,939 Speaker 1: countries in this region. But what's really surprising was Indonesian 238 00:11:56,950 --> 00:12:01,780 Speaker 1: Defense Minister Prabowo Soo's comments about peace plan to draw 239 00:12:01,789 --> 00:12:03,150 Speaker 1: an end to the war in Ukraine. 240 00:12:03,489 --> 00:12:06,119 Speaker 1: He proposed a settlement that will usher in an immediate 241 00:12:06,130 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: cessation of hostilities and compel both countries. Russia and Ukraine 242 00:12:09,849 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: to withdraw 15 kilometers from the current positions to create 243 00:12:13,090 --> 00:12:16,179 Speaker 1: a demilitarized buffer zone, somewhat like, you know, in the 244 00:12:16,190 --> 00:12:18,590 Speaker 1: Koreas as well and also lead to the staging of 245 00:12:18,599 --> 00:12:21,039 Speaker 1: un backed referendums in disputed territories. 246 00:12:21,369 --> 00:12:24,619 Speaker 1: But that proposal triggered a swift backlash because that would 247 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: involve some sort of surrender on Ukraine's part. And also 248 00:12:28,979 --> 00:12:32,140 Speaker 1: it also means that Russia's aggression would be rewarded by 249 00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:34,500 Speaker 1: some sort of territorial gains as well. So of course, 250 00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:37,419 Speaker 1: Ukraine has rejected that plan. Yeah. And last year, President 251 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:41,189 Speaker 1: Sins made a key address during the dialogue but this 252 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:41,799 Speaker 1: time around the 253 00:12:42,075 --> 00:12:44,395 Speaker 1: minister was there in person. He was and he was 254 00:12:44,405 --> 00:12:46,346 Speaker 1: the one I suppose that pushed back on that plan. Yes, 255 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:48,705 Speaker 1: he was and not just him. The E US. Top 256 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:52,366 Speaker 1: diplomat also said on state also rejected what he described 257 00:12:52,375 --> 00:12:55,205 Speaker 1: as the peace of the cemeteries, a peace of surrender. 258 00:12:55,306 --> 00:12:58,005 Speaker 1: And he argued that Russian aggression should not be rewarded 259 00:12:58,015 --> 00:13:02,656 Speaker 1: by further territorial concessions. The German Minister Defense Minister Boris Victoria, 260 00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:05,030 Speaker 1: he said that the war in Ukraine and the reckoning 261 00:13:05,041 --> 00:13:07,481 Speaker 1: it forced on the continent was a wake up call 262 00:13:07,492 --> 00:13:11,131 Speaker 1: with far reaching implications. So he also announced that his 263 00:13:11,142 --> 00:13:13,992 Speaker 1: nation will dispatch a frigate and a supply ship to 264 00:13:14,002 --> 00:13:17,932 Speaker 1: the South China Sea for freedom of navigation exercises. His 265 00:13:17,942 --> 00:13:22,012 Speaker 1: British counterpart, Ben Wallace also touted his government's permanent deployment 266 00:13:22,021 --> 00:13:23,410 Speaker 1: of two warships in the region. 267 00:13:23,820 --> 00:13:29,090 Speaker 1: So all these taken together really adds to Beijing's fears 268 00:13:29,099 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: of some sort of a geopolitical and clement by the 269 00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:35,169 Speaker 1: US and its allies in this region. And that's what 270 00:13:35,179 --> 00:13:37,289 Speaker 1: China has been saying as well. There's some sort of 271 00:13:37,299 --> 00:13:40,530 Speaker 1: fear that a NATO alliance would arrive in our part 272 00:13:40,539 --> 00:13:42,890 Speaker 1: of the world and that's something that China doesn't really 273 00:13:42,969 --> 00:13:47,669 Speaker 1: want Jeremy China US, Taiwan Ukraine. Those are the big 274 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,700 Speaker 1: sort of ticket items for the Shangla dialogue. But what 275 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:51,580 Speaker 1: else was covered that you think our listeners should be 276 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:54,419 Speaker 1: aware of? Well, we've really focused on the China US tensions, 277 00:13:54,429 --> 00:13:56,929 Speaker 1: but that's also a very interesting thing that came out 278 00:13:56,940 --> 00:13:59,189 Speaker 1: at this summit as well that about China and us 279 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,849 Speaker 1: offering very competing security visions for the Asia Pacific. So 280 00:14:02,859 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: at this summit, Chinese Defense Minister Li Shang introduced he 281 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:08,909 Speaker 1: elaborated on the global security initiative that was proposed by 282 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:11,020 Speaker 1: Chinese President Xi Jinping last year. 283 00:14:11,239 --> 00:14:14,849 Speaker 1: That's a concept of common security, respecting and safeguarding security 284 00:14:14,859 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: of every country, lots of words, but still very vague 285 00:14:18,330 --> 00:14:20,390 Speaker 1: at this point in time but clearly we can see 286 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,789 Speaker 1: that China is coming up with some sort of vision 287 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:25,799 Speaker 1: that's different from what the US is espousing over the 288 00:14:25,809 --> 00:14:29,140 Speaker 1: years with the intervention in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq 289 00:14:29,150 --> 00:14:31,830 Speaker 1: as well. China's vision is very different from that. 290 00:14:32,239 --> 00:14:35,929 Speaker 1: The US Pacific Asia Pacific security strategy is all about 291 00:14:35,940 --> 00:14:38,770 Speaker 1: according to state media, Chinese state media is about war 292 00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:42,330 Speaker 1: division and small click. Whereas China's foreign policy is emphasizing 293 00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:46,229 Speaker 1: peace development and big family. So we will hear more 294 00:14:46,239 --> 00:14:49,479 Speaker 1: about that. Hopefully some analysts have suggested that Li Shang 295 00:14:49,559 --> 00:14:50,390 Speaker 1: was here to gain 296 00:14:50,465 --> 00:14:53,515 Speaker 1: some sort of buy in on this global security initiative. 297 00:14:53,525 --> 00:14:56,994 Speaker 1: And if some sort of behind the scenes acceptance of 298 00:14:57,005 --> 00:14:59,575 Speaker 1: this initiative is taking place, maybe you can hear more 299 00:14:59,585 --> 00:15:02,885 Speaker 1: from presidency in the coming months or years. And lastly, Jeremy, 300 00:15:02,895 --> 00:15:05,015 Speaker 1: we've covered a lot of ground about the different topics 301 00:15:05,025 --> 00:15:08,614 Speaker 1: that were discussed and the different positions of of countries involved. 302 00:15:08,859 --> 00:15:11,419 Speaker 1: But give our listeners a sense of what it's like 303 00:15:11,429 --> 00:15:14,390 Speaker 1: to actually cover these big summits you've done and many 304 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,650 Speaker 1: of them through the years, I was there last year 305 00:15:16,659 --> 00:15:19,830 Speaker 1: and it can get quite frantic as delegates move between sessions, 306 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,239 Speaker 1: journalists adjusting for interviews to get reactions, let our listeners 307 00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:24,950 Speaker 1: in on some of the inner workings they might not 308 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,429 Speaker 1: know of. Well, there are so many delegations in town, right? 309 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,309 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been covering the Chinese delegation over the 310 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,390 Speaker 1: past few years in the first few years that I covered, 311 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:34,770 Speaker 1: it was really, really frantic. 312 00:15:34,989 --> 00:15:37,330 Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't know when the Chinese delegation was 313 00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:40,559 Speaker 1: going to give any press conferences. Normally they do after 314 00:15:40,570 --> 00:15:42,919 Speaker 1: the US counterparts, you know, speak, they want to give 315 00:15:42,929 --> 00:15:45,090 Speaker 1: their side their point of view. So in the first 316 00:15:45,099 --> 00:15:47,500 Speaker 1: few years, what we did was we hung around outside 317 00:15:47,510 --> 00:15:51,820 Speaker 1: the ballroom where the Chinese Defense Minister or other officials 318 00:15:51,830 --> 00:15:54,409 Speaker 1: were talking and we just hung around outside there waiting 319 00:15:54,419 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: for them to come out. And we just tell them 320 00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: all the way. There was a year. I remember I 321 00:15:58,409 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: just ran after them and they end up in some 322 00:16:01,010 --> 00:16:01,859 Speaker 1: secluded corner 323 00:16:01,955 --> 00:16:05,804 Speaker 1: of Shanghai dialogue and gave an impromptu press conference to us. Anyway, 324 00:16:05,815 --> 00:16:07,864 Speaker 1: the Chinese state media were all there. They were all 325 00:16:07,875 --> 00:16:10,255 Speaker 1: in position. We had to jostle for position. So I 326 00:16:10,265 --> 00:16:12,484 Speaker 1: was like there was a huge crowd, I just like 327 00:16:12,494 --> 00:16:15,455 Speaker 1: to stuck my hands in amongst all the reporters and 328 00:16:15,465 --> 00:16:17,804 Speaker 1: just stuck my microphone there and held there for like, 329 00:16:17,815 --> 00:16:19,344 Speaker 1: I think half an hour or something like that. 330 00:16:19,619 --> 00:16:24,390 Speaker 1: But in the last two years since COVID, after COVID, anyway, 331 00:16:24,409 --> 00:16:27,580 Speaker 1: China has been, you know, contacting us about press conferences. 332 00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: So there's more heads up. We know it's going to 333 00:16:29,450 --> 00:16:32,169 Speaker 1: take place at a certain suite for instance. So we 334 00:16:32,179 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: turn up, we answer, you know, it's it's more comfortable 335 00:16:36,090 --> 00:16:38,609 Speaker 1: for us as well. We don't have to jostle for positions. 336 00:16:38,770 --> 00:16:41,169 Speaker 1: Uh but it's a very small room so not everyone 337 00:16:41,179 --> 00:16:41,849 Speaker 1: can get in. 338 00:16:42,059 --> 00:16:44,539 Speaker 1: So we are among a select group of journalists who 339 00:16:44,549 --> 00:16:47,299 Speaker 1: are allowed to get in to listen to what China 340 00:16:47,309 --> 00:16:50,109 Speaker 1: has seen. I suppose that's an indication of how China 341 00:16:50,119 --> 00:16:53,979 Speaker 1: has shifted its messaging. It's sort of for, for international 342 00:16:53,989 --> 00:16:57,039 Speaker 1: media to hear their side of the events that are 343 00:16:57,049 --> 00:17:00,210 Speaker 1: transpiring no longer just for Chinese state media. Yeah, that's right. 344 00:17:00,219 --> 00:17:02,549 Speaker 1: Just a little anecdote when I was there last year, 345 00:17:02,830 --> 00:17:05,469 Speaker 1: what struck me was one level of security that you 346 00:17:05,479 --> 00:17:07,630 Speaker 1: have to go through to get into the hotel. But 347 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: also the fact that the hotel is still actually operating 348 00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:13,099 Speaker 1: and functioning as a hotel. That's right. They are. So 349 00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:14,849 Speaker 1: if you've ever been to the Shangri La in Singapore, 350 00:17:14,859 --> 00:17:17,699 Speaker 1: you'll know that there's like a two or three story 351 00:17:17,709 --> 00:17:20,319 Speaker 1: atrium entrance as you go in and a lot of 352 00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:22,949 Speaker 1: the meeting rooms for the Shala dialogue are one level 353 00:17:22,959 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: above and there's like walkways that go around it and 354 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:27,459 Speaker 1: meeting rooms off to the sides left and right. 355 00:17:27,729 --> 00:17:31,089 Speaker 1: So media uh for our jobs, we have to try 356 00:17:31,099 --> 00:17:34,188 Speaker 1: and find somewhere where we can report from. So there's everywhere, 357 00:17:34,199 --> 00:17:36,619 Speaker 1: there's like people standing up with cameras pointing at them 358 00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:39,699 Speaker 1: all through the foyer, on different levels, on staircases, wherever 359 00:17:39,709 --> 00:17:41,810 Speaker 1: they can find a spot to to do their report. 360 00:17:41,819 --> 00:17:44,659 Speaker 1: And in amongst all of this, you'll see guests of 361 00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: the hotel just going about their daily business. And I 362 00:17:47,449 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 1: remember 363 00:17:47,785 --> 00:17:50,354 Speaker 1: being on the balcony looking down and seeing a family 364 00:17:50,364 --> 00:17:53,714 Speaker 1: of 42 young kids, a couple and they were in 365 00:17:53,724 --> 00:17:57,224 Speaker 1: their like, um, bath robes or the hotel robes and 366 00:17:57,234 --> 00:17:59,064 Speaker 1: they were making their way down to the swimming pool 367 00:17:59,074 --> 00:18:02,435 Speaker 1: just looking bewildered at, like, when we arrived last night, 368 00:18:02,444 --> 00:18:04,114 Speaker 1: it wasn't like this, but they come down this morning 369 00:18:04,125 --> 00:18:06,864 Speaker 1: and there's just, you know, hundreds of people in military 370 00:18:06,875 --> 00:18:07,775 Speaker 1: uniforms in 371 00:18:08,089 --> 00:18:11,699 Speaker 1: uh you know, jackets and suits and ties and camera equipment. 372 00:18:11,709 --> 00:18:13,310 Speaker 1: And it was just phenomenal to see this sort of 373 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:16,899 Speaker 1: juxtaposition of life going on as normal for people on holiday. 374 00:18:17,099 --> 00:18:20,290 Speaker 1: So while you know, the leaders of all major countries 375 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:23,030 Speaker 1: in terms of defense and security, you know, going about 376 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,020 Speaker 1: their business and having very high level talks, fascinating, you 377 00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:28,219 Speaker 1: mentioned about people going about their daily lives. You know, 378 00:18:28,229 --> 00:18:30,949 Speaker 1: what's also interesting is that the moment it ends after 379 00:18:30,959 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: the last dialogue session, plenary session, 380 00:18:33,609 --> 00:18:36,709 Speaker 1: the staff just swoop in to remove all the stuff 381 00:18:36,719 --> 00:18:39,099 Speaker 1: within like an hour or so, we are still doing 382 00:18:39,109 --> 00:18:41,688 Speaker 1: our reports, our life courses and all that. But you 383 00:18:41,699 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: can see that all the facilities are very quickly being dismantled. 384 00:18:45,050 --> 00:18:47,020 Speaker 1: If you walk into the ballroom, like one hour after 385 00:18:47,030 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: the the last clean recession, 386 00:18:48,859 --> 00:18:52,219 Speaker 1: the chairs are all stacked up. The stage has been dismantled. 387 00:18:52,229 --> 00:18:55,790 Speaker 1: So it really is a a very frenetic three days 388 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,489 Speaker 1: of the dialogue, you know, people come in they, they 389 00:18:58,500 --> 00:18:59,948 Speaker 1: say what they want to say, they meet whoever they 390 00:18:59,959 --> 00:19:02,609 Speaker 1: want to meet. And after it happens, it ends, life 391 00:19:02,619 --> 00:19:05,310 Speaker 1: goes on like it never happened until the next year 392 00:19:05,319 --> 00:19:07,550 Speaker 1: when you go through it all again. Thanks very much Jeremy. 393 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: Thank you. 394 00:19:12,959 --> 00:19:15,829 Speaker 1: The Shangri La dialogue is a unique meeting where ministers 395 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:19,569 Speaker 1: debate the region's most pressing security challenges, engage in important 396 00:19:19,579 --> 00:19:23,130 Speaker 1: bilateral talks and come up with fresh approaches together. It 397 00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:26,069 Speaker 1: is also Asia's premier defense summit and provides a platform 398 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:29,569 Speaker 1: for debate among government ministers, senior officials and business leaders 399 00:19:29,579 --> 00:19:32,530 Speaker 1: and security experts as well. And though it's not always 400 00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:32,790 Speaker 1: possible 401 00:19:32,885 --> 00:19:35,854 Speaker 1: to get parties to engage directly, it is important to 402 00:19:35,864 --> 00:19:39,145 Speaker 1: keep providing the opportunities for them to do so. The 403 00:19:39,155 --> 00:19:41,395 Speaker 1: TV version C N A correspondent airs on C N 404 00:19:41,405 --> 00:19:43,885 Speaker 1: A every Wednesday at 9 30 PM. You can also 405 00:19:43,895 --> 00:19:46,094 Speaker 1: catch up with it where and, and whenever you like 406 00:19:46,104 --> 00:19:48,295 Speaker 1: on C N A dot Asia do like and subscribe 407 00:19:48,305 --> 00:19:50,744 Speaker 1: to this podcast version that takes you behind the scenes 408 00:19:50,755 --> 00:19:54,415 Speaker 1: with our correspondents like Jeremy. Thank you for listening. Our 409 00:19:54,425 --> 00:19:58,094 Speaker 1: podcast team is made up of Christina Robert Farra Ong 410 00:19:58,114 --> 00:19:58,814 Speaker 1: and me, Steve.