Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A
Speaker 2: podcast
Speaker 1: In a world driven by apps. Almost everything is quantifiable.
Speaker 1: Are smart watches? Tell us how many steps we've taken,
Speaker 1: How many calories we've burnt and how much sitting we
Speaker 1: do now imagine applying this idea of tracking and quantifying
Speaker 1: to carbon emissions, reducing emissions is no longer a suggestion
Speaker 1: but a clarion call for countries and businesses as a
Speaker 1: key way to tackle climate change.
Speaker 1: But can emissions be tracked quantified or assessed an objective
Speaker 1: and transparent way? And how will this affect decarbonization efforts?
Speaker 1: That's where innovative startups like unraveled carbon come into the picture.
Speaker 1: Their aim is to help businesses track and reduce carbon
Speaker 1: emissions and they use artificial intelligence to do it.
Speaker 1: But how does it all work? And can it really
Speaker 1: be foolproof? What are the deep challenges that come with
Speaker 1: tracking emissions and at the heart of it? How does
Speaker 1: the world benefit
Speaker 1: to have this conversation with me today are co founders
Speaker 1: of Unraveled Carbon Race I and Mark Ellen.
Speaker 1: Grace. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. It's
Speaker 1: great to see you, Grace, great to hear from you, Mark,
Speaker 2: you're joining us from
Speaker 1: Perth. So let's start at the beginning while it's often
Speaker 1: labeled as a major risk, we know that climate change
Speaker 1: is also creating business opportunities, but I wonder why the
Speaker 1: focus on tracking emissions. Grace, well, let me turn to
Speaker 1: you first,
Speaker 1: You've been a serial entrepreneur funding startups for more than
Speaker 1: 15 years, but why start your own business in climate
Speaker 1: tech and why unraveled carbon in particular. Yeah, thanks for
Speaker 1: having us actually, so I'm a new in climate change.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know what was the difference between net
Speaker 1: zero and carbon positive. Yeah, just 18 months ago. So
Speaker 1: it's
Speaker 1: for any ordinary person to pick this up. I think
Speaker 1: my turning point came when I knew my second company
Speaker 1: was going to be acquired last year and my daughter
Speaker 1: was just going to turn two years old and when
Speaker 1: you have a child you start to do things like
Speaker 1: wills and legacy planning and when I was doing my
Speaker 1: will there were some assets and properties that were going
Speaker 1: to leave her. It suddenly just struck me that
Speaker 1: that's all well and good. But if I left her
Speaker 1: properties on the planet that is no longer going to
Speaker 1: be habitable by the time she grows up. What's the
Speaker 1: point of it all?
Speaker 1: And then I spoke to the 20 smartest people I
Speaker 1: know reconnected back to Silicon Valley and Oxford where I studied.
Speaker 1: They pointed me to this whole area, very few companies
Speaker 1: measuring their carbon footprint and even fewer are doing anything
Speaker 1: about it and we have no time left in trying
Speaker 1: to decelerate the impacts of climate change. So I thought
Speaker 1: using my tech startup and
Speaker 1: V. C. Venture capital background, can I do something that
Speaker 1: is product lead scalable, accessible, small and big companies can
Speaker 1: use to accelerate participation in the solution rather than all
Speaker 1: of us being like passive bystanders, wow. And one of
Speaker 1: the smartest people that you reached out to was Mark
Speaker 2: Mark,
Speaker 1: you're very nice
Speaker 1: Mark, you are a chemical engineer with over 20 years
Speaker 1: experience and have been specializing in greenhouse gas and energy management.
Speaker 1: Why was it important for you to get involved in
Speaker 1: tracking carbon emissions?
Speaker 2: My time in climate change and in climate strategy development
Speaker 2: goes back a long way 15 years. I was actually
Speaker 2: working in the hydrogen industry at the time back in
Speaker 2: 2004 and ran a hydrogen refueling station and it was
Speaker 2: just this eye opening moment where I had this realization
Speaker 2: that you
Speaker 2: could use chemical engineering skills for a positive outcome. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, because in the university were not
Speaker 2: taught about sustainability, we weren't back then and then did
Speaker 2: my research into sustainability and decided that of all of
Speaker 2: the very broad church that is sustainability and sustainable development.
Speaker 2: Climate change is just one of those really, really big,
Speaker 2: really tough problems. And
Speaker 2: by and large it's an existential problem for everything, right? So,
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, that seems to be like a really
Speaker 2: great area for me to devote my time into at
Speaker 2: the time. I told my wife I'm gonna pivot into
Speaker 2: climate change and she's like, you know, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of money and engineering, why would you want to do that? Now?
Speaker 2: I'm vindicated 15 years later, why emissions management? Because that's
Speaker 2: the basis of everything, right? So, knowing your emissions and
Speaker 2: knowing where your starting point
Speaker 2: gives you a way to plot a pathway to your
Speaker 2: endpoint being zero or climate positive or any one of
Speaker 2: the millions of US waves that float around at the moment.
Speaker 2: But you need to know where you start to get
Speaker 2: to where you need to be. And of course the
Speaker 2: old adage, what gets measured gets managed at the end
Speaker 2: of the day.
Speaker 1: All right, So let's just deep dive into how the
Speaker 1: platform actually works and
Speaker 1: what you guys are offering your clients. I visited your
Speaker 1: website actually, it was quite intrigued by the mission statement.
Speaker 1: It said something along the lines of doing it in
Speaker 1: the 21st century way automated, fast and painless Grace tell
Speaker 1: us how tricky and painful it is to measure track
Speaker 1: and account for an accurate picture of the carbon emissions
Speaker 1: of the company, especially when you think about the intricate
Speaker 1: value supply chains as well. We've started serving clients even
Speaker 1: were just less than a year old
Speaker 1: and the clients who converted to us the fastest were
Speaker 1: the ones that have felt the most pain before. So
Speaker 1: they have worked with the best consultants. But the approach
Speaker 1: was still very manual, literally collecting paper, invoice,
Speaker 1: voices, electricity bills, reading the kilo watts from each one,
Speaker 1: putting into an excel that Mark has used a million
Speaker 1: times and that entire process can sometimes take up to
Speaker 1: nine months in a year just to gather data
Speaker 1: in a non automated fashion and to get the measurement
Speaker 1: out and that just doesn't make sense. Right Then everyone
Speaker 1: is left with what, 23 months to actually de carbon eyes.
Speaker 1: That's a good point. And then it's the next financial
Speaker 1: cycle already. So I think Unravel really wants to take
Speaker 1: that problem by the horns and reverse the effect impact ratio.
Speaker 1: So now we are specialized in converting any company's accounting
Speaker 1: data because that's the richest source of truth.
Speaker 1: A lot of people spend time preparing their financial data
Speaker 1: and we convert that into carbon data in seconds. Wow.
Speaker 1: So Mark, is it as easy as uploading files on
Speaker 1: the platform and how accurate is it? And can it
Speaker 1: really be full
Speaker 2: proof from a user point of view? Yes, it's absolutely
Speaker 2: as easy as uploading a file to the platform behind
Speaker 2: the scenes. Obviously
Speaker 2: there's a lot of work that goes on to get
Speaker 2: to this point. So a lot of very rigorous data science,
Speaker 2: a lot of collecting high quality data, machine learning and
Speaker 2: then improving our data sets over time as more and
Speaker 2: more users come onto the platform as well. So I
Speaker 2: guess that's one all calm on the surface but going
Speaker 2: a million miles an hour underneath just to make sure
Speaker 2: that everything
Speaker 2: is robust and scientifically useful to provide high quality information
Speaker 2: that clients can actually make decisions from. So in terms
Speaker 2: of accuracy, what we're doing is certainly a lot better
Speaker 2: than the norm. Right? Because I've been doing these emissions
Speaker 2: inventories for quite some time and particularly when we start
Speaker 2: talking about supply chains and
Speaker 2: indirect emissions, the emissions associated
Speaker 1: with special license. So
Speaker 2: the emissions associated with the things you buy or the
Speaker 2: things you do your products do downstream, they've typically been
Speaker 2: very inaccurate using really high level factors that say when
Speaker 2: you spend a dollar on food that's equal to x
Speaker 2: number of kilos and all food is pumped into the
Speaker 2: same bucket, whether it
Speaker 1: makes sense, right,
Speaker 2: Whether it's a dollar for a dollar on kale, same
Speaker 2: outcome and it doesn't make sense from a decision making
Speaker 2: point of view because the only way to reduce your
Speaker 2: emissions is to spend fewer dollars that should be actually
Speaker 2: actionable insights where we can go on an item based
Speaker 2: and saying, well actually if you bought this thing from
Speaker 2: this other person or if you replace this item with
Speaker 2: something else that's similar, then there's a way for you
Speaker 2: to reduce your impact.
Speaker 1: Interesting Sir,
Speaker 1: I wonder how many companies are you currently working with?
Speaker 1: Who's your target clientele and sort of which sectors are
Speaker 1: you seeing most traction and demand, wow great questions. There
Speaker 1: are 12 major sectors globally and we are building engine
Speaker 1: by engine so we have 12 engines to build but
Speaker 1: the algorithm is actually the same at the core of it.
Speaker 1: But the data, the pricing the items, the emission factors
Speaker 1: differ sector to sector,
Speaker 1: the first sector that we chose to build for is
Speaker 1: in food and agree because if you take a step
Speaker 1: back the five highest emitting industries in the world are
Speaker 1: of course petrochemical then food and agree built environment, transportation,
Speaker 1: logistics and fashion. So we chose food and agree we
Speaker 1: took four months to build the first engine and it's
Speaker 1: now done so now we can serve anyone
Speaker 1: starting from seed propagation, whether it's vertical farms or landfills
Speaker 1: all the way to final use restaurants, hotels. The second
Speaker 1: engine that we're 95% done is to serve e commerce platforms.
Speaker 1: So that's why we're talking to read martin Lozada and
Speaker 1: we're talking to carousel and grab
Speaker 1: all these wonderful unicorns. Right? Because the leaders helping these
Speaker 1: companies are very progressive. They don't need much convincing to
Speaker 1: know that this is the right thing to do, although
Speaker 1: they are not yet asked by any stock exchange or
Speaker 1: anything to do that. Some are, some of our clients
Speaker 1: are public listed.
Speaker 1: I think in terms of traction, I would say that
Speaker 1: the tech sector is responding a lot faster sometimes within
Speaker 1: two weeks from the demo they already want to sign
Speaker 1: up on our platform. For example, salad stop the Mastic
Speaker 1: bag Asia's largest salad chain. They're opening the first net
Speaker 1: zero branch in capital spring on monday as a net
Speaker 1: zero branch, the first ever Net zero outlet. That's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and revel is the data platform behind
Speaker 1: and the leaders that said stop Adrian and Catherine. It's
Speaker 1: in their DNA to do the right thing and they
Speaker 1: are manifesting that through everything they're building. So that's a
Speaker 1: great example. We could even see that their highest emitting
Speaker 1: ingredient was the feta cheese. They get to innovate. Do
Speaker 1: they replace the energies did they find from a local supplier?
Speaker 1: So it gets more fun from a decision making point
Speaker 1: of view. And Mark and Grace just mentioned the food
Speaker 1: and a great sector. But you guys are also looking
Speaker 1: at fashion y fashion,
Speaker 1: how would it work in that industry?
Speaker 2: Yeah, fashion is a big impact industry. So as great
Speaker 2: point on balance when we add up all of the
Speaker 2: indirect emissions and the direct emissions from the industry, it
Speaker 2: is a larger, better and of course fashion itself is
Speaker 2: this sort of high volume product for better off the west.
Speaker 2: That is just the society that we're in at the moment.
Speaker 2: And on top of that
Speaker 2: fashion supply chains have typically been very, very opaque, So
Speaker 2: really hard to get any decent information anything past the
Speaker 2: first level suppliers. So we're hoping that by leveraging technology,
Speaker 2: we can actually shine some light into those areas and
Speaker 2: look at some of the true emissions impacts of the
Speaker 2: fashion industry and then help them dig carbonized, make smarter
Speaker 2: decisions around their supply chains and see benefits overall.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are
Speaker 1: the host of a new podcast called working. We're here
Speaker 1: to get into the essential things that no one tells
Speaker 1: you about working and company culture from office politics to
Speaker 1: dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted to eavesdrop on
Speaker 1: an interesting conversation by the water cooler. This podcast is
Speaker 1: for you look out for our episodes wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcast.
Speaker 1: So it's not just salad stop. You mentioned a few
Speaker 1: tech companies as well. Recently. We've been seeing the number
Speaker 1: of companies with net zero emission targets surging around the world.
Speaker 1: Are you sensing there's that tectonic shift on the ground
Speaker 1: as to how companies are viewing their carbon footprint and
Speaker 1: their desire
Speaker 1: to reduce them. So we group, our leads were talking
Speaker 1: to over 100 life leads right now into two buckets.
Speaker 1: One bucket is they respond because it's regulatory pressure, right?
Speaker 1: So they're responding because it's compliant to
Speaker 1: the second bucket is from voluntary pressure. These companies are
Speaker 1: responding because they know and believe fundamentally that's the future
Speaker 1: of business and they know what that's directing to do.
Speaker 1: I think everyone is on their own journeys. I think
Speaker 1: as long as you get started, that's good. So we
Speaker 1: definitely see a lot more happening on the ground. But
Speaker 1: ASIA in general lacks behind.
Speaker 1: Would you agree, Mark, what's your observation? Is there still
Speaker 1: resistance with companies opting to stick to their old ways
Speaker 1: and given that the transition towards net zero can be disruptive,
Speaker 1: sometimes expensive.
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of that going on. There's certainly
Speaker 2: a little bit of trying to maintain the status quo
Speaker 2: and that's natural change resistance of any organization and I've
Speaker 2: been doing this for 20 years, why would I need
Speaker 2: to change? Why do I need to do things differently?
Speaker 2: Experience when I started in climate change in 2007, you
Speaker 2: really couldn't talk about climate change to people. And in fact,
Speaker 2: all of the conversations I would have framed around so
Speaker 2: we can save you energy and save your money. And
Speaker 2: then as a byproduct, obviously, emissions reduced because you're reducing
Speaker 2: your energy consumption. That has changed completely. And in the
Speaker 2: last 18 months, everyone's talking about emissions and then zero
Speaker 2: targets and decarbonization.
Speaker 2: I feel led largely by the finance industry because finance
Speaker 2: industry has gone, oh, all of our money is tied
Speaker 2: up in the status quo and that status quo has
Speaker 2: got to change. So how do we know whether that
Speaker 2: money is at risk of long term? Alright, particularly institutional
Speaker 2: investors investing for like 2030 years a pension fund. So
Speaker 2: that's caused a huge shift. Now,
Speaker 2: the steps that we need to take now is moving
Speaker 2: on from making a commitment to net zero. And I
Speaker 2: was on a panel recently, which was really enlightening because
Speaker 2: this guy who was on the panel said, we've set
Speaker 2: a net zero by 2050 target, but he said, what's
Speaker 2: important is we've also set an actual emissions reduction target
Speaker 2: for 2025
Speaker 2: and I'll still be working here in 2025. So I've
Speaker 2: got to deliver that. I don't have to deliver a
Speaker 2: 2050 target because that's 20 years away. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to be here. But the important thing is now this
Speaker 2: road map, how are we actually going to achieve that?
Speaker 2: One of the points along the way and how do
Speaker 2: we set those interim targets, which is something now that
Speaker 2: companies are grappling with countries grappling with 2050 years, 10
Speaker 2: prime ministers away, it's, you know, five ceos a lot
Speaker 2: can change in that time
Speaker 1: And 90% of global GDP economies of global GDP have
Speaker 1: pledged but we have to already move away from promises
Speaker 1: and pledges to the other P which is the actual
Speaker 1: pathway the plan, all these pledges are there, but they
Speaker 1: are looking for solutions like ours and others to create
Speaker 1: the other piece.
Speaker 2: The
Speaker 1: Carbon ization movement as so to speak, has led to
Speaker 1: many other startups that promised to help companies track, reduce
Speaker 1: and offset their emissions as well. A real booming market
Speaker 1: out there, which means some tough competition for you guys
Speaker 1: there are those who are even offering the service for free,
Speaker 1: how is unraveled carbon, trying to stay ahead of the game.
Speaker 1: We are a sous plus service model. So our clients
Speaker 1: don't just get thrown with a platform, they still get
Speaker 1: Mark's team specifically to handhold them and guide them. We
Speaker 1: have just raised AsIA's probably ASIA's largest seat round ever
Speaker 1: for climate tech platform. That's part of the mod. We
Speaker 1: get to get the best talent on board like we
Speaker 1: have 30 people now. A bulk of them are software engineers,
Speaker 1: data scientists, data architects ph D s
Speaker 1: that are reading the most advanced research papers on how
Speaker 1: to apply machine learning on climate change. We are talking
Speaker 1: about building the best climate tech platform out of little
Speaker 1: Singapore with the best talent possible globally. We're hiring from
Speaker 1: all around the world. So I think at the end
Speaker 1: of the day it's our people that will be our
Speaker 1: greatest defense. But having said that the more they are
Speaker 1: those that are at least doing it properly with a
Speaker 1: lot of scientific backing, the better
Speaker 1: competition or collaborators? We don't really mind. As long as
Speaker 1: more people are helping tackle this problem against more of
Speaker 1: a wider landscape when it comes to carbon emissions. I
Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on carbon offset because I'm
Speaker 1: sure your services give companies the option to offset their emissions.
Speaker 1: There's been quite a heated debate about whether it really works.
Speaker 1: Is just a distraction. Does it
Speaker 1: enable polluters to continue polluting? Where do you stand on
Speaker 1: this Mark? Does it have a role to play? Do
Speaker 1: you have any plans to collaborate with? I don't know
Speaker 1: offset project developers. Maybe your thoughts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have many thoughts but as a principle within
Speaker 2: unravel we are always reduced first.
Speaker 2: This is a good general principle for use of offsets. Right?
Speaker 2: So it should be, you need to do as much
Speaker 2: as you can with the sort of funds and resources
Speaker 2: you have available to reduce your own emissions, both yourself
Speaker 2: and within your supply chain before you then use offsets
Speaker 2: for residual unavoidable emissions sometimes termed.
Speaker 2: And the reason for that is there's just not enough
Speaker 2: offsets to go around and there won't be enough offsets
Speaker 2: to go around and in the future, limited supply, huge demand,
Speaker 2: the price will go bananas and that's just the market
Speaker 2: at the moment. So pinning your entire corporate strategy on
Speaker 2: buying offsets, ad infinitum is not really an amazing strategy
Speaker 2: going forward because you'll just find yourself exposed to pretty
Speaker 2: high costs. Now offsets themselves
Speaker 2: are actually really useful. The thing that we have to
Speaker 2: just keep considering is are they high quality offsets? Are
Speaker 2: they real emissions reductions? Are they permanent reduction in emissions reductions?
Speaker 2: Are they timely. So you're not buying offsets from some
Speaker 2: refrigerant destruction project in 2007 they've got the right vintage
Speaker 2: and of course there are additional so it,
Speaker 2: emissions reductions that wouldn't otherwise have happened without the offset.
Speaker 2: So with the right governance processes, offsets are really, really useful. Now,
Speaker 2: one of the issues has been sort of a tendency
Speaker 2: to be a bit like the Wild West in some
Speaker 2: ways and some crazy projects in some less than reputable
Speaker 2: registries turning up, but that will get filtered out as
Speaker 2: users of offsets become more aware Now, the one interesting
Speaker 2: thing that's happening at the moment is now this
Speaker 2: Divergence between avoidance and removal offsets, offsets generated for emissions
Speaker 2: that were reduced against some baseline or those that actually
Speaker 2: removed to go two from the atmosphere and you see
Speaker 2: someone like stripe recently spending $600 a ton, which is
Speaker 2: right at the top end of what one would pay
Speaker 2: for direct air capture to try and promote that industry
Speaker 2: and scale that up
Speaker 1: and grace Well, I just have one line to add
Speaker 1: to Mark's very detailed analysis which is unravel is an
Speaker 1: offset last platform, not an offset first platform that many
Speaker 1: other platforms
Speaker 2: are
Speaker 2: fantastic.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't have any impact on brainwashing. How seriously are you
Speaker 1: looking at that challenge? But that's the thing, we don't
Speaker 1: want any sloppy pathways because that's slippery. We want proper reduction. Right,
Speaker 1: part of the second engine we haven't talked about is
Speaker 1: a solutions recommendation engine that's also maybe one of the
Speaker 1: first in the world that exists where we automatically recommend
Speaker 1: decarbonization pathway for our clients based on their data
Speaker 1: and because we have done a lot of user discovery,
Speaker 1: we have pre packaged these pathways into lowest cost, lowest effort,
Speaker 1: most urgent, highest R. O I and try to bring
Speaker 1: in that consumer flavor into an otherwise very deeply scientific
Speaker 1: enterprise platform. So hopefully our clients are going to implement
Speaker 1: what we recommend both for
Speaker 1: The engine and our sustainability consultants and really only use
Speaker 1: offsets as the final move for unavoidable emissions, not for
Speaker 1: emissions that they can avoid by reducing point taken and grace,
Speaker 1: you know, looking ahead now you've set some ambitious goals
Speaker 1: removing one gigatons of carbon emissions or 5% of the
Speaker 1: global target by 2030. Wow, that's ambitious. How are you
Speaker 1: planning to successfully scale up your operations to achieve this?
Speaker 1: Well, we want to be the default decarbonization platform for
Speaker 1: any companies in asIA to use. That's why we are
Speaker 1: measuring our own success with our client success in removing emissions.
Speaker 1: So the one giga is through the work, the reduction
Speaker 1: work of our clients and their supply chains. We just
Speaker 1: want to own Asia as a geographic market. But the
Speaker 1: way to scale
Speaker 1: is that we want to get deeper and deeper into
Speaker 1: the supply chains of our clients. So our client has
Speaker 1: the best incentive to want to get the original carbon
Speaker 1: data from their suppliers. And these suppliers are also incentivize
Speaker 1: to remain a vendor or supply to our customer and
Speaker 1: therefore have to respond to this request. There's no point
Speaker 1: us or even
Speaker 1: anyone else asking suppliers to disclose these things because it's
Speaker 1: not something that they think about. But when the pressure
Speaker 1: is applied by the grabs the salad stops of the world,
Speaker 1: then the vendors will respond. So that's our plan to scale.
Speaker 1: We go deep. But having said that we have opened
Speaker 1: our new Zealand as a second market
Speaker 1: and Mark and I will be in Sydney in the
Speaker 1: next two weeks to also explore the Australian market exciting times.
Speaker 1: So before we let you two go, perhaps a final
Speaker 1: word on how tech can help with climate change and
Speaker 1: where do you see it headed? Mark?
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, tech is for me this way to achieve
Speaker 2: that scale. One of the things that I really love
Speaker 2: about carbon is the fact that
Speaker 2: it can take what I was doing as a consultant
Speaker 2: and just do more of it quicker because consulting is
Speaker 2: a little bit unsalable. There's only a finite number of
Speaker 2: hours in the day. Currently one day will be able
Speaker 2: to solve that too maybe. But you can only work
Speaker 2: with a certain number of clients at one time, you
Speaker 2: can only deliver the certain amount of work at one time. So,
Speaker 2: leveraging tech
Speaker 2: technology to do all of this grunt work and then
Speaker 2: leaving people with more time to do the fun strategy
Speaker 2: and the decarbonization implementations, that's really where I see it
Speaker 2: going and why technology is really important.
Speaker 1: Thank you and grace your outlook of climate landscape for me.
Speaker 1: Technology enables us to think the unthinkable
Speaker 1: and to hope the otherwise impossible many years back, we
Speaker 1: would not think that we are streaming music from anywhere
Speaker 1: or playing multiplayer games with people around the world or
Speaker 1: watching people play games through Youtube, right? Or having a
Speaker 1: global e commerce economy or having a social network that
Speaker 1: transcends geographies and borders
Speaker 1: technology enabled, all of that. We would not have otherwise
Speaker 1: thought we could get all those things. So the same
Speaker 1: with this, climate change is a long old stubborn problem.
Speaker 1: It's time that speed and skill are introduced into it,
Speaker 1: but also to make it sexy to make it fun
Speaker 1: to make it painless. That's the only way that the
Speaker 1: human behavior will want to do something. They wouldn't do
Speaker 1: it if it's difficult and laborious and expensive. So hopefully
Speaker 1: we're onto something here. Hopefully, thank you so much Grace,
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Mark, thank you both for joining
Speaker 1: in best of luck in your efforts and hopefully we'll
Speaker 1: see you general progress in the fight against climate change.
Speaker 1: Thanks to my guests, Mark Allen and Grace sigh and
Speaker 1: thanks to all of you for tuning in. We hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode and do remember to subscribe and
Speaker 1: like this podcast. So you know when a new episode drops,
Speaker 1: you can find Ciena's climate and sustainability coverage online at
Speaker 1: sienna dot asia. The team behind this podcast is Jacqueline chan, Audrey,
Speaker 1: juan daniel lee and Christina robert and I'm julie, you
Speaker 1: signing off