WEBVTT - Why tracking carbon emissions is big business | EP 4 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:01.500 This is a C. N. A 0:00:01.500 --> 0:00:02.300 podcast 0:00:05.150 --> 0:00:09.610 In a world driven by apps. Almost everything is quantifiable. 0:00:09.619 --> 0:00:13.260 Are smart watches? Tell us how many steps we've taken, 0:00:13.270 --> 0:00:16.680 How many calories we've burnt and how much sitting we 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:21.360 do now imagine applying this idea of tracking and quantifying 0:00:21.370 --> 0:00:26.389 to carbon emissions, reducing emissions is no longer a suggestion 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.820 but a clarion call for countries and businesses as a 0:00:29.820 --> 0:00:32.360 key way to tackle climate change. 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:37.470 But can emissions be tracked quantified or assessed an objective 0:00:37.470 --> 0:00:42.010 and transparent way? And how will this affect decarbonization efforts? 0:00:42.030 --> 0:00:46.979 That's where innovative startups like unraveled carbon come into the picture. 0:00:47.500 --> 0:00:51.089 Their aim is to help businesses track and reduce carbon 0:00:51.090 --> 0:00:54.970 emissions and they use artificial intelligence to do it. 0:00:55.530 --> 0:00:58.240 But how does it all work? And can it really 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.860 be foolproof? What are the deep challenges that come with 0:01:01.870 --> 0:01:05.110 tracking emissions and at the heart of it? How does 0:01:05.110 --> 0:01:06.420 the world benefit 0:01:07.340 --> 0:01:10.399 to have this conversation with me today are co founders 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.120 of Unraveled Carbon Race I and Mark Ellen. 0:01:16.780 --> 0:01:19.040 Grace. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. It's 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:23.160 great to see you, Grace, great to hear from you, Mark, 0:01:23.170 --> 0:01:24.190 you're joining us from 0:01:24.190 --> 0:01:27.450 Perth. So let's start at the beginning while it's often 0:01:27.450 --> 0:01:31.170 labeled as a major risk, we know that climate change 0:01:31.170 --> 0:01:34.640 is also creating business opportunities, but I wonder why the 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.220 focus on tracking emissions. Grace, well, let me turn to 0:01:38.220 --> 0:01:38.880 you first, 0:01:38.896 --> 0:01:42.146 You've been a serial entrepreneur funding startups for more than 0:01:42.146 --> 0:01:46.056 15 years, but why start your own business in climate 0:01:46.056 --> 0:01:50.106 tech and why unraveled carbon in particular. Yeah, thanks for 0:01:50.106 --> 0:01:54.316 having us actually, so I'm a new in climate change. 0:01:54.326 --> 0:01:56.326 I didn't even know what was the difference between net 0:01:56.326 --> 0:02:00.486 zero and carbon positive. Yeah, just 18 months ago. So 0:02:00.486 --> 0:02:00.586 it's 0:02:01.012 --> 0:02:04.592 for any ordinary person to pick this up. I think 0:02:04.592 --> 0:02:07.262 my turning point came when I knew my second company 0:02:07.262 --> 0:02:10.172 was going to be acquired last year and my daughter 0:02:10.172 --> 0:02:12.751 was just going to turn two years old and when 0:02:12.752 --> 0:02:14.392 you have a child you start to do things like 0:02:14.401 --> 0:02:17.642 wills and legacy planning and when I was doing my 0:02:17.642 --> 0:02:20.192 will there were some assets and properties that were going 0:02:20.192 --> 0:02:23.121 to leave her. It suddenly just struck me that 0:02:23.290 --> 0:02:25.639 that's all well and good. But if I left her 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.650 properties on the planet that is no longer going to 0:02:28.650 --> 0:02:32.310 be habitable by the time she grows up. What's the 0:02:32.310 --> 0:02:33.880 point of it all? 0:02:34.100 --> 0:02:36.720 And then I spoke to the 20 smartest people I 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.750 know reconnected back to Silicon Valley and Oxford where I studied. 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.530 They pointed me to this whole area, very few companies 0:02:44.530 --> 0:02:49.329 measuring their carbon footprint and even fewer are doing anything 0:02:49.330 --> 0:02:52.470 about it and we have no time left in trying 0:02:52.470 --> 0:02:55.590 to decelerate the impacts of climate change. So I thought 0:02:55.590 --> 0:02:57.410 using my tech startup and 0:02:57.425 --> 0:03:01.385 V. C. Venture capital background, can I do something that 0:03:01.385 --> 0:03:05.245 is product lead scalable, accessible, small and big companies can 0:03:05.245 --> 0:03:09.975 use to accelerate participation in the solution rather than all 0:03:09.975 --> 0:03:13.175 of us being like passive bystanders, wow. And one of 0:03:13.175 --> 0:03:17.285 the smartest people that you reached out to was Mark 0:03:17.294 --> 0:03:18.204 Mark, 0:03:18.215 --> 0:03:22.335 you're very nice 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.400 Mark, you are a chemical engineer with over 20 years 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.980 experience and have been specializing in greenhouse gas and energy management. 0:03:32.230 --> 0:03:35.380 Why was it important for you to get involved in 0:03:35.390 --> 0:03:37.400 tracking carbon emissions? 0:03:37.420 --> 0:03:41.460 My time in climate change and in climate strategy development 0:03:41.460 --> 0:03:44.150 goes back a long way 15 years. I was actually 0:03:44.150 --> 0:03:46.360 working in the hydrogen industry at the time back in 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.740 2004 and ran a hydrogen refueling station and it was 0:03:50.740 --> 0:03:53.990 just this eye opening moment where I had this realization 0:03:53.990 --> 0:03:54.300 that you 0:03:54.316 --> 0:03:57.846 could use chemical engineering skills for a positive outcome. And 0:03:57.846 --> 0:04:00.226 I was like, okay, because in the university were not 0:04:00.226 --> 0:04:03.296 taught about sustainability, we weren't back then and then did 0:04:03.296 --> 0:04:07.146 my research into sustainability and decided that of all of 0:04:07.146 --> 0:04:11.146 the very broad church that is sustainability and sustainable development. 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:14.206 Climate change is just one of those really, really big, 0:04:14.216 --> 0:04:16.316 really tough problems. And 0:04:16.402 --> 0:04:20.212 by and large it's an existential problem for everything, right? So, 0:04:20.212 --> 0:04:22.592 I'm like, well, that seems to be like a really 0:04:22.592 --> 0:04:25.541 great area for me to devote my time into at 0:04:25.541 --> 0:04:27.872 the time. I told my wife I'm gonna pivot into 0:04:27.872 --> 0:04:29.932 climate change and she's like, you know, there's a lot 0:04:29.932 --> 0:04:33.262 of money and engineering, why would you want to do that? Now? 0:04:33.262 --> 0:04:38.601 I'm vindicated 15 years later, why emissions management? Because that's 0:04:38.642 --> 0:04:43.282 the basis of everything, right? So, knowing your emissions and 0:04:43.282 --> 0:04:45.380 knowing where your starting point 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.790 gives you a way to plot a pathway to your 0:04:48.790 --> 0:04:52.240 endpoint being zero or climate positive or any one of 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.909 the millions of US waves that float around at the moment. 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.700 But you need to know where you start to get 0:04:58.700 --> 0:05:00.190 to where you need to be. And of course the 0:05:00.190 --> 0:05:02.609 old adage, what gets measured gets managed at the end 0:05:02.610 --> 0:05:03.650 of the day. 0:05:03.660 --> 0:05:06.719 All right, So let's just deep dive into how the 0:05:06.730 --> 0:05:08.380 platform actually works and 0:05:08.540 --> 0:05:11.200 what you guys are offering your clients. I visited your 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.320 website actually, it was quite intrigued by the mission statement. 0:05:14.330 --> 0:05:16.529 It said something along the lines of doing it in 0:05:16.529 --> 0:05:21.960 the 21st century way automated, fast and painless Grace tell 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.479 us how tricky and painful it is to measure track 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.020 and account for an accurate picture of the carbon emissions 0:05:28.020 --> 0:05:31.070 of the company, especially when you think about the intricate 0:05:31.070 --> 0:05:35.870 value supply chains as well. We've started serving clients even 0:05:35.870 --> 0:05:37.810 were just less than a year old 0:05:38.130 --> 0:05:42.589 and the clients who converted to us the fastest were 0:05:42.589 --> 0:05:45.860 the ones that have felt the most pain before. So 0:05:45.860 --> 0:05:48.900 they have worked with the best consultants. But the approach 0:05:48.900 --> 0:05:53.150 was still very manual, literally collecting paper, invoice, 0:05:53.165 --> 0:05:57.615 voices, electricity bills, reading the kilo watts from each one, 0:05:57.615 --> 0:06:00.135 putting into an excel that Mark has used a million 0:06:00.135 --> 0:06:04.555 times and that entire process can sometimes take up to 0:06:04.555 --> 0:06:08.195 nine months in a year just to gather data 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.810 in a non automated fashion and to get the measurement 0:06:12.810 --> 0:06:16.219 out and that just doesn't make sense. Right Then everyone 0:06:16.220 --> 0:06:19.330 is left with what, 23 months to actually de carbon eyes. 0:06:19.339 --> 0:06:21.180 That's a good point. And then it's the next financial 0:06:21.180 --> 0:06:25.830 cycle already. So I think Unravel really wants to take 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.520 that problem by the horns and reverse the effect impact ratio. 0:06:31.529 --> 0:06:35.540 So now we are specialized in converting any company's accounting 0:06:35.540 --> 0:06:38.659 data because that's the richest source of truth. 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.370 A lot of people spend time preparing their financial data 0:06:42.380 --> 0:06:46.280 and we convert that into carbon data in seconds. Wow. 0:06:46.290 --> 0:06:49.589 So Mark, is it as easy as uploading files on 0:06:49.589 --> 0:06:52.550 the platform and how accurate is it? And can it 0:06:52.550 --> 0:06:53.580 really be full 0:06:53.580 --> 0:06:57.360 proof from a user point of view? Yes, it's absolutely 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.080 as easy as uploading a file to the platform behind 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:01.050 the scenes. Obviously 0:07:01.146 --> 0:07:03.686 there's a lot of work that goes on to get 0:07:03.686 --> 0:07:08.065 to this point. So a lot of very rigorous data science, 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:12.026 a lot of collecting high quality data, machine learning and 0:07:12.026 --> 0:07:14.926 then improving our data sets over time as more and 0:07:14.926 --> 0:07:17.526 more users come onto the platform as well. So I 0:07:17.526 --> 0:07:19.916 guess that's one all calm on the surface but going 0:07:19.916 --> 0:07:22.346 a million miles an hour underneath just to make sure 0:07:22.346 --> 0:07:23.196 that everything 0:07:23.212 --> 0:07:28.262 is robust and scientifically useful to provide high quality information 0:07:28.272 --> 0:07:33.322 that clients can actually make decisions from. So in terms 0:07:33.322 --> 0:07:37.362 of accuracy, what we're doing is certainly a lot better 0:07:37.362 --> 0:07:40.152 than the norm. Right? Because I've been doing these emissions 0:07:40.152 --> 0:07:43.432 inventories for quite some time and particularly when we start 0:07:43.432 --> 0:07:45.280 talking about supply chains and 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:48.050 indirect emissions, the emissions associated 0:07:48.050 --> 0:07:50.670 with special license. So 0:07:50.670 --> 0:07:52.730 the emissions associated with the things you buy or the 0:07:52.730 --> 0:07:56.890 things you do your products do downstream, they've typically been 0:07:56.890 --> 0:08:01.460 very inaccurate using really high level factors that say when 0:08:01.460 --> 0:08:05.330 you spend a dollar on food that's equal to x 0:08:05.330 --> 0:08:08.040 number of kilos and all food is pumped into the 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:09.090 same bucket, whether it 0:08:09.830 --> 0:08:10.890 makes sense, right, 0:08:11.293 --> 0:08:14.753 Whether it's a dollar for a dollar on kale, same 0:08:14.763 --> 0:08:19.333 outcome and it doesn't make sense from a decision making 0:08:19.333 --> 0:08:22.243 point of view because the only way to reduce your 0:08:22.243 --> 0:08:25.243 emissions is to spend fewer dollars that should be actually 0:08:25.253 --> 0:08:28.143 actionable insights where we can go on an item based 0:08:28.143 --> 0:08:30.093 and saying, well actually if you bought this thing from 0:08:30.093 --> 0:08:32.553 this other person or if you replace this item with 0:08:32.553 --> 0:08:35.283 something else that's similar, then there's a way for you 0:08:35.283 --> 0:08:36.333 to reduce your impact. 0:08:36.343 --> 0:08:37.050 Interesting Sir, 0:08:37.346 --> 0:08:40.446 I wonder how many companies are you currently working with? 0:08:40.456 --> 0:08:44.146 Who's your target clientele and sort of which sectors are 0:08:44.146 --> 0:08:48.186 you seeing most traction and demand, wow great questions. There 0:08:48.186 --> 0:08:52.386 are 12 major sectors globally and we are building engine 0:08:52.386 --> 0:08:54.945 by engine so we have 12 engines to build but 0:08:54.946 --> 0:08:57.706 the algorithm is actually the same at the core of it. 0:08:57.716 --> 0:09:01.336 But the data, the pricing the items, the emission factors 0:09:01.346 --> 0:09:02.835 differ sector to sector, 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.300 the first sector that we chose to build for is 0:09:06.300 --> 0:09:09.070 in food and agree because if you take a step 0:09:09.070 --> 0:09:12.760 back the five highest emitting industries in the world are 0:09:12.770 --> 0:09:17.350 of course petrochemical then food and agree built environment, transportation, 0:09:17.350 --> 0:09:20.790 logistics and fashion. So we chose food and agree we 0:09:20.790 --> 0:09:23.580 took four months to build the first engine and it's 0:09:23.580 --> 0:09:26.730 now done so now we can serve anyone 0:09:26.890 --> 0:09:31.260 starting from seed propagation, whether it's vertical farms or landfills 0:09:31.270 --> 0:09:35.180 all the way to final use restaurants, hotels. The second 0:09:35.179 --> 0:09:39.809 engine that we're 95% done is to serve e commerce platforms. 0:09:39.820 --> 0:09:42.380 So that's why we're talking to read martin Lozada and 0:09:42.380 --> 0:09:44.040 we're talking to carousel and grab 0:09:44.054 --> 0:09:49.485 all these wonderful unicorns. Right? Because the leaders helping these 0:09:49.485 --> 0:09:52.844 companies are very progressive. They don't need much convincing to 0:09:52.845 --> 0:09:55.045 know that this is the right thing to do, although 0:09:55.045 --> 0:09:57.975 they are not yet asked by any stock exchange or 0:09:57.985 --> 0:10:00.145 anything to do that. Some are, some of our clients 0:10:00.145 --> 0:10:01.215 are public listed. 0:10:01.490 --> 0:10:03.670 I think in terms of traction, I would say that 0:10:03.670 --> 0:10:09.220 the tech sector is responding a lot faster sometimes within 0:10:09.230 --> 0:10:12.000 two weeks from the demo they already want to sign 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.060 up on our platform. For example, salad stop the Mastic 0:10:15.059 --> 0:10:19.050 bag Asia's largest salad chain. They're opening the first net 0:10:19.050 --> 0:10:23.500 zero branch in capital spring on monday as a net 0:10:23.500 --> 0:10:28.760 zero branch, the first ever Net zero outlet. That's amazing. Yeah. 0:10:28.770 --> 0:10:31.460 And and revel is the data platform behind 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.350 and the leaders that said stop Adrian and Catherine. It's 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.610 in their DNA to do the right thing and they 0:10:36.610 --> 0:10:40.060 are manifesting that through everything they're building. So that's a 0:10:40.059 --> 0:10:43.900 great example. We could even see that their highest emitting 0:10:43.900 --> 0:10:47.600 ingredient was the feta cheese. They get to innovate. Do 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.490 they replace the energies did they find from a local supplier? 0:10:50.500 --> 0:10:53.080 So it gets more fun from a decision making point 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.700 of view. And Mark and Grace just mentioned the food 0:10:56.700 --> 0:10:59.240 and a great sector. But you guys are also looking 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.140 at fashion y fashion, 0:11:01.150 --> 0:11:03.620 how would it work in that industry? 0:11:03.630 --> 0:11:10.260 Yeah, fashion is a big impact industry. So as great 0:11:10.260 --> 0:11:12.580 point on balance when we add up all of the 0:11:12.580 --> 0:11:15.190 indirect emissions and the direct emissions from the industry, it 0:11:15.190 --> 0:11:20.530 is a larger, better and of course fashion itself is 0:11:20.540 --> 0:11:24.890 this sort of high volume product for better off the west. 0:11:24.890 --> 0:11:27.390 That is just the society that we're in at the moment. 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.080 And on top of that 0:11:29.340 --> 0:11:35.319 fashion supply chains have typically been very, very opaque, So 0:11:35.330 --> 0:11:39.729 really hard to get any decent information anything past the 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:45.059 first level suppliers. So we're hoping that by leveraging technology, 0:11:45.059 --> 0:11:47.809 we can actually shine some light into those areas and 0:11:47.809 --> 0:11:50.420 look at some of the true emissions impacts of the 0:11:50.420 --> 0:11:54.610 fashion industry and then help them dig carbonized, make smarter 0:11:54.610 --> 0:11:58.550 decisions around their supply chains and see benefits overall. 0:12:05.820 --> 0:12:08.890 Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are 0:12:08.890 --> 0:12:11.770 the host of a new podcast called working. We're here 0:12:11.770 --> 0:12:14.220 to get into the essential things that no one tells 0:12:14.220 --> 0:12:17.320 you about working and company culture from office politics to 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.630 dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted to eavesdrop on 0:12:20.630 --> 0:12:24.250 an interesting conversation by the water cooler. This podcast is 0:12:24.250 --> 0:12:27.130 for you look out for our episodes wherever you get 0:12:27.130 --> 0:12:28.010 your podcast. 0:12:35.309 --> 0:12:38.060 So it's not just salad stop. You mentioned a few 0:12:38.059 --> 0:12:41.550 tech companies as well. Recently. We've been seeing the number 0:12:41.550 --> 0:12:45.740 of companies with net zero emission targets surging around the world. 0:12:45.750 --> 0:12:49.439 Are you sensing there's that tectonic shift on the ground 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.559 as to how companies are viewing their carbon footprint and 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:52.980 their desire 0:12:53.125 --> 0:12:56.804 to reduce them. So we group, our leads were talking 0:12:56.804 --> 0:13:00.795 to over 100 life leads right now into two buckets. 0:13:00.804 --> 0:13:07.135 One bucket is they respond because it's regulatory pressure, right? 0:13:07.135 --> 0:13:10.700 So they're responding because it's compliant to 0:13:10.950 --> 0:13:14.929 the second bucket is from voluntary pressure. These companies are 0:13:14.929 --> 0:13:19.630 responding because they know and believe fundamentally that's the future 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.000 of business and they know what that's directing to do. 0:13:23.010 --> 0:13:25.860 I think everyone is on their own journeys. I think 0:13:25.860 --> 0:13:28.420 as long as you get started, that's good. So we 0:13:28.420 --> 0:13:32.650 definitely see a lot more happening on the ground. But 0:13:32.660 --> 0:13:35.939 ASIA in general lacks behind. 0:13:36.740 --> 0:13:39.960 Would you agree, Mark, what's your observation? Is there still 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.350 resistance with companies opting to stick to their old ways 0:13:43.350 --> 0:13:47.620 and given that the transition towards net zero can be disruptive, 0:13:47.620 --> 0:13:49.080 sometimes expensive. 0:13:49.110 --> 0:13:51.210 There's a little bit of that going on. There's certainly 0:13:51.210 --> 0:13:53.350 a little bit of trying to maintain the status quo 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:58.020 and that's natural change resistance of any organization and I've 0:13:58.020 --> 0:13:59.690 been doing this for 20 years, why would I need 0:13:59.690 --> 0:14:01.740 to change? Why do I need to do things differently? 0:14:03.210 --> 0:14:08.680 Experience when I started in climate change in 2007, you 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.830 really couldn't talk about climate change to people. And in fact, 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.440 all of the conversations I would have framed around so 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.550 we can save you energy and save your money. And 0:14:16.550 --> 0:14:19.420 then as a byproduct, obviously, emissions reduced because you're reducing 0:14:19.420 --> 0:14:23.920 your energy consumption. That has changed completely. And in the 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:27.490 last 18 months, everyone's talking about emissions and then zero 0:14:27.490 --> 0:14:29.600 targets and decarbonization. 0:14:29.890 --> 0:14:35.120 I feel led largely by the finance industry because finance 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.760 industry has gone, oh, all of our money is tied 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.330 up in the status quo and that status quo has 0:14:40.330 --> 0:14:42.310 got to change. So how do we know whether that 0:14:42.310 --> 0:14:45.670 money is at risk of long term? Alright, particularly institutional 0:14:45.670 --> 0:14:50.050 investors investing for like 2030 years a pension fund. So 0:14:50.060 --> 0:14:54.030 that's caused a huge shift. Now, 0:14:54.230 --> 0:14:58.190 the steps that we need to take now is moving 0:14:58.190 --> 0:15:01.710 on from making a commitment to net zero. And I 0:15:01.710 --> 0:15:05.420 was on a panel recently, which was really enlightening because 0:15:05.430 --> 0:15:07.860 this guy who was on the panel said, we've set 0:15:07.870 --> 0:15:10.530 a net zero by 2050 target, but he said, what's 0:15:10.530 --> 0:15:15.300 important is we've also set an actual emissions reduction target 0:15:15.300 --> 0:15:16.520 for 2025 0:15:16.690 --> 0:15:19.200 and I'll still be working here in 2025. So I've 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.950 got to deliver that. I don't have to deliver a 0:15:20.950 --> 0:15:23.100 2050 target because that's 20 years away. I'm not going 0:15:23.100 --> 0:15:26.340 to be here. But the important thing is now this 0:15:26.340 --> 0:15:28.870 road map, how are we actually going to achieve that? 0:15:28.870 --> 0:15:30.720 One of the points along the way and how do 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.520 we set those interim targets, which is something now that 0:15:33.530 --> 0:15:38.440 companies are grappling with countries grappling with 2050 years, 10 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.080 prime ministers away, it's, you know, five ceos a lot 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:43.480 can change in that time 0:15:43.940 --> 0:15:48.640 And 90% of global GDP economies of global GDP have 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.550 pledged but we have to already move away from promises 0:15:52.550 --> 0:15:55.400 and pledges to the other P which is the actual 0:15:55.400 --> 0:16:00.740 pathway the plan, all these pledges are there, but they 0:16:00.740 --> 0:16:04.010 are looking for solutions like ours and others to create 0:16:04.010 --> 0:16:04.640 the other piece. 0:16:05.220 --> 0:16:05.580 The 0:16:05.580 --> 0:16:08.230 Carbon ization movement as so to speak, has led to 0:16:08.230 --> 0:16:11.850 many other startups that promised to help companies track, reduce 0:16:11.850 --> 0:16:14.840 and offset their emissions as well. A real booming market 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.610 out there, which means some tough competition for you guys 0:16:18.620 --> 0:16:22.260 there are those who are even offering the service for free, 0:16:22.270 --> 0:16:25.380 how is unraveled carbon, trying to stay ahead of the game. 0:16:26.030 --> 0:16:30.130 We are a sous plus service model. So our clients 0:16:30.130 --> 0:16:32.810 don't just get thrown with a platform, they still get 0:16:32.820 --> 0:16:37.420 Mark's team specifically to handhold them and guide them. We 0:16:37.420 --> 0:16:41.980 have just raised AsIA's probably ASIA's largest seat round ever 0:16:41.990 --> 0:16:45.470 for climate tech platform. That's part of the mod. We 0:16:45.470 --> 0:16:48.010 get to get the best talent on board like we 0:16:48.010 --> 0:16:51.380 have 30 people now. A bulk of them are software engineers, 0:16:51.390 --> 0:16:54.560 data scientists, data architects ph D s 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.430 that are reading the most advanced research papers on how 0:16:58.430 --> 0:17:01.660 to apply machine learning on climate change. We are talking 0:17:01.670 --> 0:17:05.840 about building the best climate tech platform out of little 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:09.160 Singapore with the best talent possible globally. We're hiring from 0:17:09.170 --> 0:17:11.660 all around the world. So I think at the end 0:17:11.660 --> 0:17:13.639 of the day it's our people that will be our 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:18.150 greatest defense. But having said that the more they are 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.350 those that are at least doing it properly with a 0:17:21.350 --> 0:17:24.130 lot of scientific backing, the better 0:17:24.580 --> 0:17:28.350 competition or collaborators? We don't really mind. As long as 0:17:28.350 --> 0:17:31.550 more people are helping tackle this problem against more of 0:17:31.550 --> 0:17:35.500 a wider landscape when it comes to carbon emissions. I 0:17:35.500 --> 0:17:38.830 want to get your thoughts on carbon offset because I'm 0:17:38.830 --> 0:17:43.510 sure your services give companies the option to offset their emissions. 0:17:43.510 --> 0:17:46.649 There's been quite a heated debate about whether it really works. 0:17:46.650 --> 0:17:48.310 Is just a distraction. Does it 0:17:48.580 --> 0:17:52.429 enable polluters to continue polluting? Where do you stand on 0:17:52.430 --> 0:17:54.920 this Mark? Does it have a role to play? Do 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.940 you have any plans to collaborate with? I don't know 0:17:57.940 --> 0:18:00.970 offset project developers. Maybe your thoughts. 0:18:00.990 --> 0:18:07.780 Yeah, I have many thoughts but as a principle within 0:18:07.790 --> 0:18:10.770 unravel we are always reduced first. 0:18:10.930 --> 0:18:14.010 This is a good general principle for use of offsets. Right? 0:18:14.010 --> 0:18:17.230 So it should be, you need to do as much 0:18:17.230 --> 0:18:21.550 as you can with the sort of funds and resources 0:18:21.550 --> 0:18:24.860 you have available to reduce your own emissions, both yourself 0:18:24.859 --> 0:18:27.640 and within your supply chain before you then use offsets 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.150 for residual unavoidable emissions sometimes termed. 0:18:31.290 --> 0:18:33.200 And the reason for that is there's just not enough 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.219 offsets to go around and there won't be enough offsets 0:18:35.220 --> 0:18:39.260 to go around and in the future, limited supply, huge demand, 0:18:39.270 --> 0:18:42.570 the price will go bananas and that's just the market 0:18:42.570 --> 0:18:46.560 at the moment. So pinning your entire corporate strategy on 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.290 buying offsets, ad infinitum is not really an amazing strategy 0:18:50.290 --> 0:18:52.610 going forward because you'll just find yourself exposed to pretty 0:18:52.609 --> 0:18:55.710 high costs. Now offsets themselves 0:18:55.950 --> 0:18:59.010 are actually really useful. The thing that we have to 0:18:59.010 --> 0:19:02.440 just keep considering is are they high quality offsets? Are 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.500 they real emissions reductions? Are they permanent reduction in emissions reductions? 0:19:06.510 --> 0:19:10.609 Are they timely. So you're not buying offsets from some 0:19:10.619 --> 0:19:14.430 refrigerant destruction project in 2007 they've got the right vintage 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.379 and of course there are additional so it, 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.600 emissions reductions that wouldn't otherwise have happened without the offset. 0:19:20.609 --> 0:19:26.050 So with the right governance processes, offsets are really, really useful. Now, 0:19:26.060 --> 0:19:28.310 one of the issues has been sort of a tendency 0:19:28.340 --> 0:19:30.590 to be a bit like the Wild West in some 0:19:30.590 --> 0:19:33.970 ways and some crazy projects in some less than reputable 0:19:33.970 --> 0:19:37.780 registries turning up, but that will get filtered out as 0:19:37.790 --> 0:19:42.190 users of offsets become more aware Now, the one interesting 0:19:42.190 --> 0:19:44.240 thing that's happening at the moment is now this 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:50.060 Divergence between avoidance and removal offsets, offsets generated for emissions 0:19:50.060 --> 0:19:52.250 that were reduced against some baseline or those that actually 0:19:52.250 --> 0:19:55.189 removed to go two from the atmosphere and you see 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.030 someone like stripe recently spending $600 a ton, which is 0:19:59.030 --> 0:20:01.310 right at the top end of what one would pay 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.980 for direct air capture to try and promote that industry 0:20:04.980 --> 0:20:06.050 and scale that up 0:20:06.270 --> 0:20:10.480 and grace Well, I just have one line to add 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.670 to Mark's very detailed analysis which is unravel is an 0:20:14.670 --> 0:20:18.070 offset last platform, not an offset first platform that many 0:20:18.070 --> 0:20:18.710 other platforms 0:20:18.710 --> 0:20:19.110 are 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:20.179 fantastic. 0:20:20.190 --> 0:20:23.440 Wouldn't have any impact on brainwashing. How seriously are you 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.730 looking at that challenge? But that's the thing, we don't 0:20:26.730 --> 0:20:32.170 want any sloppy pathways because that's slippery. We want proper reduction. Right, 0:20:32.180 --> 0:20:34.899 part of the second engine we haven't talked about is 0:20:34.900 --> 0:20:38.020 a solutions recommendation engine that's also maybe one of the 0:20:38.020 --> 0:20:43.190 first in the world that exists where we automatically recommend 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.429 decarbonization pathway for our clients based on their data 0:20:47.890 --> 0:20:50.730 and because we have done a lot of user discovery, 0:20:50.740 --> 0:20:55.780 we have pre packaged these pathways into lowest cost, lowest effort, 0:20:55.790 --> 0:20:58.880 most urgent, highest R. O I and try to bring 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:03.960 in that consumer flavor into an otherwise very deeply scientific 0:21:03.970 --> 0:21:10.270 enterprise platform. So hopefully our clients are going to implement 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.899 what we recommend both for 0:21:12.910 --> 0:21:16.690 The engine and our sustainability consultants and really only use 0:21:16.690 --> 0:21:21.740 offsets as the final move for unavoidable emissions, not for 0:21:21.750 --> 0:21:25.600 emissions that they can avoid by reducing point taken and grace, 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.520 you know, looking ahead now you've set some ambitious goals 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:32.879 removing one gigatons of carbon emissions or 5% of the 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.010 global target by 2030. Wow, that's ambitious. How are you 0:21:37.010 --> 0:21:40.580 planning to successfully scale up your operations to achieve this? 0:21:41.070 --> 0:21:45.400 Well, we want to be the default decarbonization platform for 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.270 any companies in asIA to use. That's why we are 0:21:48.270 --> 0:21:54.490 measuring our own success with our client success in removing emissions. 0:21:54.500 --> 0:21:57.570 So the one giga is through the work, the reduction 0:21:57.570 --> 0:22:00.470 work of our clients and their supply chains. We just 0:22:00.470 --> 0:22:02.950 want to own Asia as a geographic market. But the 0:22:02.950 --> 0:22:04.050 way to scale 0:22:04.070 --> 0:22:07.350 is that we want to get deeper and deeper into 0:22:07.350 --> 0:22:10.690 the supply chains of our clients. So our client has 0:22:10.690 --> 0:22:15.250