Speaker 1: I say so, hey DEA and welcome back to another
Speaker 1: episode of clarity.
Speaker 1: As you can tell, we are very happy and very sad,
Speaker 1: happy because this is a brand new set, but sad
Speaker 1: because it's our very first episode in the new set.
Speaker 1: But Jemmy can't be here with us today. She's feeling
Speaker 1: a little bit under the weather but today we have
Speaker 1: a special guest and by special, I mean, very, very
Speaker 1: special because she is the youngest member of Singapore's 14th
Speaker 1: parliament representing Ang Mo Kio Grc. Let's give a warm
Speaker 1: welcome to.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. I was seeing that cushion smell very new,
Speaker 1: the smell.
Speaker 1: Tell our viewers
Speaker 1: more about yourself.
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone. My name is Nadia. I think as Hazel mentioned,
Speaker 2: I currently serve as the youngest member of parliament here
Speaker 2: in Singapore as a parliamentary duties. I think other than
Speaker 2: what you see as in parliament, sometimes in tiktok snippets,
Speaker 2: we also do a lot of ground work in our constituencies.
Speaker 2: I serve in Ang Mo Kio, which is actually even
Speaker 2: though I'm the youngest, it's one of the oldest constituencies.
Speaker 2: So I have about 25% of my residents who are
Speaker 2: over 80 years old. Wow. But I,
Speaker 2: I love the dynamic actually that has panned out. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I really see them as parents and grandparents
Speaker 2: and as much as you try to look after them,
Speaker 2: you know, they also look after you. I'm very grateful.
Speaker 2: So there's groundwork. We also look after the estate. So
Speaker 2: all your town council complaints. Yes, we also you want
Speaker 2: to start later. I take my notebook, I take my
Speaker 2: I feel for you. Thank you. There must be so
Speaker 2: many complaints coming here. Yes, let's not go there. But yeah,
Speaker 2: we also play other roles. I mean, I also, you know,
Speaker 2: as the youngest speak on different issues
Speaker 2: close to the heart of many of our youth and
Speaker 2: as a woman, which is why we're here today. And
Speaker 2: as a minority, I mean, these are some of the
Speaker 2: different issues that I speak about. She does everything
Speaker 1: you wear so
Speaker 2: many
Speaker 1: hats. What got you started in the first place?
Speaker 2: I mean, I've been volunteering since I was 15 and
Speaker 2: I think, you know, my dad actually was affected during
Speaker 2: the SARS period. So pre COVID, my dad used to
Speaker 2: be in the airlines. He flew for 30 something years
Speaker 2: and he and many of his batch were affected by
Speaker 2: what happened during SARS. He was
Speaker 2: so breadwinner at the time. And so for us, it
Speaker 2: was quite a difference and I started working from quite
Speaker 2: early on and without financial assistance. I wouldn't have been
Speaker 2: able to complete whether it's my A levels or whether
Speaker 2: it's uni, so a lot of things I'm very grateful for.
Speaker 2: And so my mom always said, you know, you should
Speaker 2: then sort of do something and contribute in whatever way
Speaker 2: you can. So I volunteered since I was young. And
Speaker 2: I think for me, I see it as a way
Speaker 2: of continuing to serve and do work in the
Speaker 2: community Prior to our batch of MP S, you mentioned parliament.
Speaker 2: We've actually only had four Malay women in the history
Speaker 2: of Singapore politics. I never knew that for so it's
Speaker 2: former president Halima Dr Fatima Latif Dr Intan and Hau,
Speaker 2: who currently is still serving as well. And then Maryam
Speaker 2: and myself, we are the 5th and 6th. And I
Speaker 2: think at the end of the day, we all bring
Speaker 2: different
Speaker 2: voices to the table. I mean, I felt that it
Speaker 2: was something that when presented with this chance, I think
Speaker 2: it was something that I thought, OK, I'm gonna take it,
Speaker 2: do my best. And if I'm useful, I'll try.
Speaker 1: Nadia. Here is like the epidemic of a woman who
Speaker 1: has fought many battles like growing up being put in
Speaker 1: a stressful condition. Your dad being the sole breadwinner and
Speaker 1: to have that job taken away from him because of
Speaker 1: the pandemic, right? Have you ever heard of this phrase?
Speaker 1: Women can never win
Speaker 1: but we disagree. I disagree. You disagree?
Speaker 1: I disagree.
Speaker 2: OK?
Speaker 1: Tell me
Speaker 1: more. I feel like, especially in this day and age,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of space and a lot of
Speaker 1: grounds to fight for ourselves. I wouldn't say things are
Speaker 1: the same if it's my mother or my grandmother's time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But for now I feel like we are able to
Speaker 1: fight for ourselves. You know, I think
Speaker 2: when
Speaker 2: I think about women can never win,
Speaker 2: I almost slightly agree. Only because I think we don't
Speaker 2: allow ourselves to win because we always want more from
Speaker 2: ourselves like we never feel like we've won. I mean,
Speaker 2: you look at Nadia, right? And she wears so many hats.
Speaker 2: She does so many things. I look at her and
Speaker 2: I'm like, actually when you sleep,
Speaker 2: do you have 36 hours in a day? I have
Speaker 2: a time turner. She does so much, right? And you
Speaker 2: wonder like, how is it that someone can do so
Speaker 2: much and play so many roles? I mean, she's mommy
Speaker 2: to be 30 weeks in? Thank you. Thank you. And
Speaker 2: it just feels like, you know, you always look at
Speaker 2: someone else, you look at another woman and you just
Speaker 2: always feel like how are you doing all this? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that you
Speaker 1: women can never win. You disagree with this sentence? Why? So,
Speaker 2: ok, so I think you both raised very valid points
Speaker 2: and both that I agree with. I think one is
Speaker 2: that we've come a long way and you know, many,
Speaker 2: we stand on the shoulders of women who have come
Speaker 2: before us and men also who have, you know, been allies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: great champions who have also supported the building of this space.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something that's really important to acknowledge.
Speaker 2: But with this increased space is also
Speaker 2: faced possibilities. And that's where I think what Azura said
Speaker 2: comes in as well. That actually a lot of it
Speaker 2: is beyond the societal expectations. It's the expectations that we
Speaker 2: place on ourselves and sometimes it's just impossible buzz. I
Speaker 2: was very blessed in my early career. I did corporate
Speaker 2: M and A and I had this amazing lady boss
Speaker 2: who said that, ok, at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: you can have it all just maybe not all at
Speaker 2: the same time.
Speaker 2: And I think that's something that's really important to remember.
Speaker 2: Um And look, I mean, everyone has different ways of
Speaker 2: how they want to lead their lives. But I guess
Speaker 2: thinking about it from a career perspective since it's my
Speaker 2: first boss. One thing that I used to share with
Speaker 2: my juniors is if you print out a calendar, like
Speaker 2: a monthly blank calendar and fill in your time,
Speaker 2: I genuinely how you're spending it for a month. What's
Speaker 2: important to you? Right? I mean, are you going to
Speaker 2: the gym? Are you meeting up with your friends? Are
Speaker 2: you going to church or are you how much time
Speaker 2: in a day and all of these are different colors.
Speaker 2: And then when you look at it at the end
Speaker 2: of the month, you ask yourself, is this congruent with
Speaker 2: how my,
Speaker 2: my values I want to live my life. Because until
Speaker 2: all that is congruent, I think it will always feel
Speaker 2: like you are either lacking something, letting someone down, including
Speaker 2: yourself or just not achieving any, you know, this impossible bar.
Speaker 2: But that piece of paper and how you spend your
Speaker 2: time
Speaker 2: has to speak to what you want to achieve for yourself.
Speaker 2: Shall we sit down after this and do a lot
Speaker 2: of pink highlighters
Speaker 1: as Nadia was saying that I was actually thinking about
Speaker 1: my own calendar like in the past month because in
Speaker 1: my smartphone, the calendars it comes with colors, right? What
Speaker 1: is one color? Personal thing is another color. And I
Speaker 1: find that most of them are filled with pink, which
Speaker 1: is work related events. And then I think about it
Speaker 1: is this how I want to spend my life? Is
Speaker 1: this my value
Speaker 1: and my purpose in life at this point, I would
Speaker 1: say yes, yes, because I won't want to have it
Speaker 1: all in my career. But moving forward, maybe that should change.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, I really want to call that
Speaker 2: out because I think a lot of times we talk
Speaker 2: about like work life balance and different people have different views.
Speaker 2: There's no one right or wrong thing. But again, because
Speaker 2: of my experience in legal practice, I realized very early
Speaker 2: that I think it's more about integration. And when I
Speaker 2: say integration, I don't mean that there's no bound,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, like your employers calling you at
Speaker 2: one am you have to pick up zoom call. OK. No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: that's not what I mean. Can we employ the Australian
Speaker 2: rule to this? I think that you should have boundaries
Speaker 2: but every person's boundaries will depend on you. And like
Speaker 2: you said, right, that the truth is we spend so
Speaker 2: much time at work. And for me, like it would
Speaker 2: be impossible for work, whether my social impact work or
Speaker 2: my work on the ground as an MP,
Speaker 2: do not be part of my identity. I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: sure work is part of your identity to some extent.
Speaker 2: And that's why it goes back, I think to congruence
Speaker 2: and you know, for different women at different times in
Speaker 2: their lives, different things take priority and it's a sliding scale,
Speaker 2: it can change. I mean, it doesn't mean that that's
Speaker 2: what it is for ever. But I think we also
Speaker 2: tend to shame women who either prioritize work or prioritize family. And,
Speaker 2: and I don't think we should do that. You know,
Speaker 2: I think everyone, first of all should be able to
Speaker 2: choose what they want to do and what's important to them.
Speaker 2: Very recently. I heard about the story of this woman
Speaker 2: who was struggling basically with her life so she, I
Speaker 2: believe was getting a divorce, was handling two kids on
Speaker 2: her own. And at that time when she was still married,
Speaker 2: I think she was,
Speaker 2: she's like, not working or working part time. And now
Speaker 2: that she was a single mother, she had to, you know,
Speaker 2: sort it out. Um, she was trying to work but
Speaker 2: at the same time she had two kids to handle
Speaker 2: and then someone who was very close to her, kept
Speaker 2: going on and on and on about just build your career. Like,
Speaker 2: can you just not think about everything else and just
Speaker 2: build your career? Not so easy? Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think that really hurt her because that may
Speaker 2: be important to you. But right now it's the last
Speaker 2: thing that I can do. But even if I wanted to,
Speaker 2: it's the last thing I can do. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So a lot of times I feel like a lot
Speaker 1: of career oriented women have to take a step back
Speaker 1: when it comes to family like myself. I feel so
Speaker 1: guilty when I cannot go home to visit my parents
Speaker 1: at least once a
Speaker 1: week.
Speaker 2: I'll see you on Sunday.
Speaker 1: Me too. Me.
Speaker 1: But have you ever felt the stress and the pressure
Speaker 1: to be a good
Speaker 1: daughter?
Speaker 2: Um And I think this goes back to what I
Speaker 2: was saying that, you know, I'm very blessed to have
Speaker 2: an amazing parents. You know, my mom and dad. Um
Speaker 2: They really made me who I am today and you know, with,
Speaker 2: with my younger brother as well. So
Speaker 2: the pressure doesn't come from them for myself or, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, there are comments like, you know, your daughter
Speaker 2: very busy but you know, my my parents are really
Speaker 2: wonderful about it and I think as the eldest child,
Speaker 2: you also kind of take on a lot of the
Speaker 2: decision making, planning, sorting things out. So I, I do
Speaker 2: think a lot of pressure comes from myself, you know,
Speaker 2: wanting to make sure I have the time I have this,
Speaker 2: I have that. So there was once when I was,
Speaker 2: you know, I was in a certain job and
Speaker 2: I was earning not a lot of money. And at
Speaker 2: that point, I made that decision because I wanted to
Speaker 2: pursue that role. But at the same time, I also thought, ok,
Speaker 2: maybe it will give me a bit more flexibility as
Speaker 2: compared to corporate MN A. And so in that role,
Speaker 2: I remember I had the chance to bring my dad
Speaker 2: for his cataract surgery and I could sit with him
Speaker 2: and wait with him and
Speaker 2: the whole thing, right, which I would not be able
Speaker 2: to do if I was in my former role. I
Speaker 2: was thinking to myself, ok, you know, I made the
Speaker 2: right choice, right? I could accompany my dad and etcetera.
Speaker 2: But then we got to the counter to make payment.
Speaker 2: And because, you know, my dad is of the older generation,
Speaker 2: he could get certain medical subsidies and the Polyclinic had
Speaker 2: told him, ok, this is the amount of your cataract
Speaker 2: surgery
Speaker 2: and you get 50%. So the interpretation was that was
Speaker 2: the total amount and the amount you pay will be half.
Speaker 2: But when we went to the counter, they said that
Speaker 2: this is the amount it's already half, it's already subsidized,
Speaker 2: it's already, this is the, and I mean, it wasn't
Speaker 2: a super huge amount but it was more than what
Speaker 2: was in my bank account at that point in time. Right?
Speaker 2: And I remember just thinking, oh, wait a minute, like
Speaker 2: these are very real tradeoffs between,
Speaker 2: I had the time to accompany my dad and do this.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, financially, you had to take
Speaker 2: a step back, you have to reassess. So again, it
Speaker 2: goes back to I think what you can or need
Speaker 2: to prioritize at that point in time and there's really
Speaker 2: no right or wrong answer now that you're about to
Speaker 2: become a mother yourself. Yes.
Speaker 2: Have you thought about how things are going to change
Speaker 2: or how your time management is going to change or
Speaker 2: what you're going to have to give up because it
Speaker 2: must have crossed your mind. You know, I've been taking
Speaker 2: care of people. Is it maybe time for me to
Speaker 2: take care of my own child? You asked me very
Speaker 2: difficult questions. I mean, I think firstly, you know, the
Speaker 2: truth is that none of us go at this alone. We,
Speaker 2: you know, have each have our own support systems, whatever
Speaker 2: that might look like for different people. For some, it's your,
Speaker 2: your closest oldest friends, for some. It's your grandma, your auntie,
Speaker 2: your uncle, your parents, your husband, etcetera. So your partner,
Speaker 2: it really depends. And I'm very grateful for the tribe
Speaker 2: that I do have. So firstly, I recognize that it
Speaker 2: won't be me alone doing this. I would like to
Speaker 2: think that with a child,
Speaker 2: a child adds to your life rather than take away
Speaker 2: from it. And I hope to build that kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, parent, child relationship, which does that. I think
Speaker 2: a lot of young parents these days they do things
Speaker 2: like take the kindergarten kid out for like
Speaker 2: Bandung and then have a real conversation about, you know,
Speaker 2: I have another friend who used to call her son,
Speaker 2: little man and that was just the way that she
Speaker 2: communicated and her life didn't totally change because she didn't
Speaker 2: allow it to. Yeah, in the sense that it wasn't ok,
Speaker 2: we can only go out in between this time and
Speaker 2: this time and then we're very, you know, fixed about it.
Speaker 2: So my husband and I have a lot of these
Speaker 2: conversations about what we think it would be like or
Speaker 2: what
Speaker 2: the kind of parents we hope to be. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, I think it's very like some survive,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, at the end of the day, right.
Speaker 2: Like you don't know for sure what it's going to
Speaker 2: be like. And my sort of approach is take things
Speaker 2: as it comes. I mean, you can have a plan
Speaker 2: but you change, change. I mean, you know, politics was
Speaker 2: not on the card. So I see this as my
Speaker 2: five year plan
Speaker 2: new and, and the, the other day got the best
Speaker 2: of plants, I think. So, you know, you just roll
Speaker 2: with the punches and you prepare as much as you can.
Speaker 2: And baby's been very quiet so far, which I'm very
Speaker 2: grateful for. So don't come out so early, but we
Speaker 2: got a lot of things to finish
Speaker 1: on that note. Can I ask a very real question?
Speaker 1: Have any residents come up to you and ask if
Speaker 1: you would be less available
Speaker 1: after you give birth?
Speaker 2: Honestly, I'm sure. Oh, no. And to be honest, I've
Speaker 2: had very, very kind residents who have also said like,
Speaker 2: you know, because I,
Speaker 2: my husband and I didn't really share the news until
Speaker 2: I was quite far along until I think I was
Speaker 2: past six months. And you know, a lot of residents have, well,
Speaker 2: meaning like, you know, go like MP you should have
Speaker 2: a child soon and all that. So I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you ask him to ask, I have delivered, I will
Speaker 2: be delivering and actually there have been residents still like,
Speaker 2: you know, oh, I can help you babysit. I still can,
Speaker 2: by the way. Ok. Very good. I know what you
Speaker 2: say
Speaker 2: and I'm very grateful and I think there are tradeoffs
Speaker 2: that I, I will have to make in terms of
Speaker 2: how much time I think, you know, some people talk
Speaker 2: about being able to take like a year of work
Speaker 2: to be able to spend with the child for the
Speaker 2: first year. I mean, I think I just have to
Speaker 2: also be very practical and realistic that they have different
Speaker 2: commitments in my life. And that's not an option for
Speaker 2: me today. Is there guilt? Uh, there is the other
Speaker 2: day I had six events
Speaker 2: and the first one was quite a long stretch. When
Speaker 2: I was on my feet, I was walking up and
Speaker 2: down and my first meal of that day I think
Speaker 2: was around 1 p.m. and I hit Tapao and I
Speaker 2: was eating in the car and that's just the reality
Speaker 2: of what it is sometimes. So I went through the
Speaker 2: rest of my day, I finished at about nine. It
Speaker 2: was me autumn, I went home and I just remember
Speaker 2: feeling so guilty like, you know, oh, I didn't, I
Speaker 2: didn't get to feed you properly today.
Speaker 2: Um, I was, you know, I didn't get to rest.
Speaker 2: I didn't put my feet up. My feet were really swollen.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking, ok, I'll try harder. Yeah. And
Speaker 2: I think that's just part of the ups and downs.
Speaker 2: And what we have to bear along the way. I
Speaker 2: shouldn't stop you. I shouldn't stop you from trying to
Speaker 2: achieve all the things you want
Speaker 1: to balance it. What about your role as a wife,
Speaker 2: as a wife?
Speaker 1: Do
Speaker 1: you think you are living up to that?
Speaker 2: Oh, no.
Speaker 2: You know anyone else
Speaker 1: only
Speaker 2: to yourself. So, you have to ask my husband. I
Speaker 2: hold on. I got ok. She knows my husband, I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: if it goes back to what
Speaker 2: are the different versions and visions of it. And I
Speaker 2: think that's something that's very important between partners that you
Speaker 2: have that agreement and understanding about how you're going to
Speaker 2: be there for each other and in what way? So
Speaker 2: I'm really very fortunate to have an understanding and supportive
Speaker 2: husband without whom I would not be able to do
Speaker 2: half the things that I do. And it was a
Speaker 2: very serious conversation early on that if I were to
Speaker 2: go down this path,
Speaker 2: this is what it will look like. And we've had
Speaker 2: to adjust the sales along the way and have very
Speaker 2: difficult conversations. But I think at the end of the
Speaker 2: day we are ultimately stronger for it. And I think
Speaker 2: the most comforting thing to be able to go home
Speaker 2: and be like,
Speaker 2: yeah, it was a really hard day. Oh, yeah. It was,
Speaker 2: it was a really great day and I know that
Speaker 2: he likes to hear the stories of the residents interactions
Speaker 2: because he knows that that's important to me. So I
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm fully like a plus, but I
Speaker 2: think it's like, ok. Right.
Speaker 2: I don't know. You really have to ask him sweat.
Speaker 2: The moral of the story is choose your partners wisely. But,
Speaker 2: you know, like when you do your walk about, when
Speaker 2: you meet a resident, do you see women who, you know,
Speaker 2: struggle the expectations of caring for the elderly because you
Speaker 2: have
Speaker 2: so many like d residences there, I think firstly, caregiving,
Speaker 2: I mean, whether you're a son or a daughter is
Speaker 2: incredibly challenging and a lot of times you can feel
Speaker 2: like your entire life has been put on hold or
Speaker 2: you need to put it aside in order to look
Speaker 2: after the care recipient.
Speaker 2: And a lot of times it does fall to the
Speaker 2: daughter sometimes unfairly, right? Sometimes a bit too casually, like
Speaker 2: an unspoken thing, you know, the they just assume your
Speaker 2: daughter will look after, you know, and you know, especially
Speaker 2: during COVID, I think where, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: our elderly are also very independent, they want to live alone.
Speaker 2: I mean, my grandma, for example, is one of the
Speaker 2: who is fiercely independent. I mean, she's 89 but she's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, she only very recently consented to having a
Speaker 2: helper at home, but before that, she really wanted to.
Speaker 2: And I see that in that in so many of
Speaker 2: my residents who are very resilient, who are very independent,
Speaker 2: who don't want to give up or don't want to
Speaker 2: have someone else in their home. So for a lot
Speaker 2: of caregivers who have an idea of how care should
Speaker 2: be given,
Speaker 2: they also can't always deliver that care because, you know,
Speaker 2: they don't ask mummy to come and stay with me,
Speaker 2: my mommy don't want. And so I have to make
Speaker 2: this commute, you know, every day to look after. And
Speaker 2: it is really, really challenging, especially when you also have
Speaker 2: your own, say like kids, your own home to run,
Speaker 2: you know, your own job to do, which is why
Speaker 2: I think having more access to resources. So for example,
Speaker 2: knowing that there are active aging centers also in the
Speaker 2: neighborhood that maybe, you know, you don't have someone there
Speaker 2: 24 7, but maybe you can control
Speaker 2: when you want to step into a day activity center,
Speaker 2: meet other people and then when you're done, you know,
Speaker 2: you go home. But there are unfortunately cases also of
Speaker 2: very real burnout. And even beyond that period of caring,
Speaker 2: I think at some point if the person you're caring
Speaker 2: for has passed on, it is incredibly challenging because you
Speaker 2: feel like so much of your identity has been
Speaker 2: I am this person's caregiver and so who am I now?
Speaker 2: And it's not just, you know, daughters or Children, but
Speaker 2: also spouses because at the end of the day, you know,
Speaker 2: in terms of health span lifespan. Women in Singapore tend
Speaker 2: to live. I think it's about 56 years longer than
Speaker 2: the men. So for a lot of wives who, especially
Speaker 2: of the older generation, like you were saying, have grown up,
Speaker 2: you know, through the years, maybe not working for a
Speaker 2: long time. And a lot of the identity has really
Speaker 2: been tiered to, you know, oh, I am missus, someone
Speaker 2: that can be such a huge shift that they need
Speaker 2: to be supported to realize that you are more, you know,
Speaker 2: there is still stuff for you to go out there
Speaker 2: and achieve. Yeah, very sad, sorry,
Speaker 1: very, very real, real stories. And these examples, we might
Speaker 1: very well face them one day ourselves as well. But
Speaker 1: I also think like at this day and age when
Speaker 1: it comes to social economic status, women are no longer
Speaker 1: at a disadvantage like last time when it comes to
Speaker 1: cases like that, maybe the man will bring in more
Speaker 1: money and then the women will be pitching in less.
Speaker 1: But I feel like now it's more of like a
Speaker 1: 5050 sometimes the woman
Speaker 1: and can also be earning more than the men.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think again, it goes back to how
Speaker 2: you and your partner choose to run the household and
Speaker 2: of your life. I do think that in this day
Speaker 2: and age, there are more dads who want to be
Speaker 2: very active parents also want to, you know, spend time
Speaker 2: with their little ones. And you know, I think the
Speaker 2: steps that we've taken towards paternity leave,
Speaker 2: leave and shared parental leave are sort of the policy
Speaker 2: implications of what society is asking for. And in that case,
Speaker 2: you know, I think there also are sometimes really difficult
Speaker 2: expectations on men where the expectation is. OK. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: are supposed to bring in more what you know, but
Speaker 2: then you're also supposed to be more active, more active
Speaker 2: and then, you know, you're also supposed to be very
Speaker 2: strong and stoic,
Speaker 2: but you are also supposed to be vulnerable. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's a confusing time for a lot of people out
Speaker 2: there and I don't know if it's about balance really,
Speaker 2: but it's about harmony. And I think for every couple
Speaker 2: it looks different and the most important thing is for
Speaker 2: people to be able to feel that they can be
Speaker 2: themselves and that they can be confident in the choices
Speaker 2: that they are making and that people are not going
Speaker 2: to touch them. And frankly,
Speaker 2: it's nobody's business how you want to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1: So I have a friend, she made a career switch
Speaker 1: and by making this career switch, she actually took a
Speaker 1: pay cut. So her damn boyfriend now husband actually offered
Speaker 1: to pay more for her mortgage. But a couple of
Speaker 1: years down the road, she's actually making more than her
Speaker 1: husband now and she offers to pay more mortgage back.
Speaker 1: But to me,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that concept like the woman paying
Speaker 1: more for mortgage. I know, call me for like whatever,
Speaker 1: but I'm more comfortable with a 5050 kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So that like, you know, I'm always safeguarding my money
Speaker 1: at no point in time. Am I like paying like
Speaker 1: maybe 70%? So I don't know, I don't know that one.
Speaker 1: Then you got to see I will get back who
Speaker 1: is taking more or is it still 5050? Because last
Speaker 1: time the guy pay more and then now the girl
Speaker 1: pay more,
Speaker 1: you know,
Speaker 2: I guess, ok, I mean, I guess the concept of
Speaker 2: marriage or being in a partnership is ultimately that you
Speaker 2: and I still exist. But at the same time, we
Speaker 2: must remember that it's about us.
Speaker 2: And so for different people, I mean, I think it
Speaker 2: really is absolutely important for people to be financially independent.
Speaker 2: I mean, to make sure you are saving, you never
Speaker 2: know what's going to happen for you as an individual
Speaker 2: or for you as a couple, you know, both ways.
Speaker 2: But I personally feel that, you know, in sickness and
Speaker 2: in health in good
Speaker 2: times and bad times, you know, really could mean in law,
Speaker 2: we always think about worst case scenarios, right? So worst
Speaker 2: case scenario is what if someone is permanently unfit to work,
Speaker 2: whether it's an accident or something really unfortunate. And then
Speaker 2: in that case that that person is not even going
Speaker 2: to be contributing 50% you know, it's gonna be contributing
Speaker 2: nothing 0%. And then what?
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So I've never considered it from this perspective.
Speaker 2: And then would you be like, disgruntled, would you feel
Speaker 1: how
Speaker 2: real thoughts,
Speaker 1: thoughts
Speaker 1: insurance is important?
Speaker 1: But yeah, a question for the floor. If you had
Speaker 1: to choose between a, being a stay at home wife
Speaker 1: fulfilling traditional norms or b being a career woman focused
Speaker 1: on your job full time, what would be your pick?
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: want
Speaker 2: it all to.
Speaker 1: Are you leaning towards one side? Because for me and
Speaker 1: it shocks me to say this, I'm a workaholic like
Speaker 1: she knows it. But I would want to be a
Speaker 1: stay at home while fulfilling traditional norms because these are
Speaker 1: moments that money
Speaker 1: come by. These are moments that once they have passed
Speaker 1: time cannot turn back. I cannot believe that again. But
Speaker 1: can I still go and pursue a job at the
Speaker 1: age of 5060? I definitely can. So, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like this little things that I don't want to miss
Speaker 1: out on time with my parents, with my loved ones.
Speaker 2: So your calendar must change
Speaker 1: a bit, the greens must go up, but
Speaker 2: she's
Speaker 2: consciously been trying to do that. So, yeah, and I
Speaker 2: think people also appreciate effort. You know, we shouldn't be
Speaker 2: too hard on ourselves again. It goes to this exact
Speaker 2: thing about wanting to
Speaker 2: have it all and maybe just not at the same
Speaker 2: time but recognizing that time is short, I mean, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but not at the same time, but time
Speaker 2: is short. So, I mean, I think that women today
Speaker 2: are empowered and have the space and possibility
Speaker 2: to do anything. There's no bar but it's about how
Speaker 2: do we then find the harmony in what we want do? Personally.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that I would be a stay at
Speaker 2: home mom or a career woman. Ok. I would like
Speaker 2: to think
Speaker 2: I'll let you know again, maybe in a year or two,
Speaker 2: whether I have found that harmony for myself or not.
Speaker 2: But I think it's, it's, you know, on us to,
Speaker 2: to try.
Speaker 1: Correct. On that note, I want to share a study
Speaker 1: with you again. This is done by associate professor called
Speaker 1: Gan Yon HN. So this professor had said that the
Speaker 1: reason women's roles have evolved in the workplace but have
Speaker 1: remained
Speaker 1: largely the same at home, especially when there are Children
Speaker 1: involved is due to biology. You know why? Because he
Speaker 1: said women often begin with nursing the infants and therefore
Speaker 1: are naturally more hands on when the Children are young.
Speaker 1: So this habit never leaves. So you are actually doing
Speaker 1: more and more, you're taking more and more on your plate,
Speaker 1: your workplace involvements have never changed, but at home it
Speaker 1: is more for you. Do you think there's going to
Speaker 1: be for you?
Speaker 2: Sweat? This is like a reality 30 week check in,
Speaker 2: you know, like, wow, I really can do so far.
Speaker 2: People have been saying I'm quite chill but I'm not,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure after this whether I am going to
Speaker 2: be so chill. I think at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it will be about how I prioritize. And I think,
Speaker 2: which is why also a lot of the steps towards
Speaker 2: more flexible work arrangements. I honestly, I think that COVID,
Speaker 2: you know, while it was very challenging for a lot
Speaker 2: of us in a lot of different ways, one thing
Speaker 2: that has evolved out of it is this idea of
Speaker 2: more flexible work arrangements and flexible work arrangements do work
Speaker 2: two ways, right at the same time, while you may
Speaker 2: want to be able to four o'clock go off a
Speaker 2: bit earlier to go and tap out, run an errand
Speaker 2: before things close. It also sometimes means that, you know,
Speaker 2: you get home and then maybe you pick up your
Speaker 2: laptop to clear some emails at seven. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: a
Speaker 2: flexible means two way trade offs in that sense. I
Speaker 2: think COVID did a solid then actually more people do
Speaker 2: a combination of work from home and work from office.
Speaker 2: And I think the idea of that trust is very
Speaker 2: important between employer and employee and how you then manage
Speaker 2: your time, work effectively, work efficiently and be able to deliver.
Speaker 2: So I do think we take on more and more roles.
Speaker 2: So again, it is where your tribe comes in. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, how can a partner support you through something
Speaker 2: like breastfeeding? For example, you know, do you have to
Speaker 2: be the one who changes every diaper? Can you afford
Speaker 2: to think about whether your mom or mom in law
Speaker 2: can support with confinement food? I think there are ways
Speaker 2: that
Speaker 2: you can try to balance it but until you open
Speaker 2: your mouth and ask or you know, you must Kai
Speaker 2: co you don't open. Many people also cannot offer you help.
Speaker 2: Anything that I didn't want to do. Like with regards
Speaker 2: to the child, for example, I would just use the
Speaker 2: excuse I carry for nine months already. Yeah, exactly. You
Speaker 2: try nine months for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2: But I do think that we also hesitate to raise
Speaker 2: our hands and seek help because sometimes we feel like
Speaker 2: I say or, you know, if I do that, then
Speaker 2: maybe I will look weak. But actually when you know that, OK,
Speaker 2: this is my limit, you know, and you raise your
Speaker 2: hand that actually to me is a show of strength
Speaker 2: rather than a show of weakness. Because you're saying I
Speaker 2: recognize this is where I'm at and I really need
Speaker 2: some help. And I think more often than not,
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's your partner or your friends or
Speaker 2: your or your parents or in laws. I do think
Speaker 2: that people are happy to help. They want to be
Speaker 2: there for you.
Speaker 1: I think that's a very
Speaker 1: good point that Nadia has raised. If you don't open
Speaker 1: your mouth to ask, it can very easily lead to burnouts.
Speaker 1: So asking for help is one thing I think setting
Speaker 1: clear work life boundaries is also important. But I recognize
Speaker 1: that you say like integration, you know, rather than like
Speaker 1: clear boundaries. But I do think that that needs
Speaker 1: to be a certain timetable that you can follow. For example,
Speaker 1: after this time, no more. Checking your work emails, you
Speaker 1: focus on connection with your spouse, your Children or rest.
Speaker 1: Rest is so important. Well,
Speaker 2: this is part of the work
Speaker 2: too.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Self care is a full time job
Speaker 1: and like saying no, when necessary, I think it is important.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: don't feel guilty.
Speaker 1: So you are the kind you can say no one,
Speaker 1: you can reject people
Speaker 2: if
Speaker 1: you,
Speaker 2: if you actually had nothing. But then you're supposed to
Speaker 2: meet a friend for example, but you're so tired like
Speaker 2: you just want to lie down. Could you, would you
Speaker 2: still go? Right.
Speaker 2: My husband, it will be like, you know, come, let's
Speaker 2: relax if I have like a free afternoon and then
Speaker 2: I was like, ok, relax and then like 10 minutes later.
Speaker 2: All right. Yeah, I need to go and clean. I
Speaker 2: cannot sit still. But, but I mean, having said that
Speaker 2: I do think rest is part of the world, I
Speaker 2: do appreciate being able to have those pockets of moments.
Speaker 2: And I think like you said, even if you integrate
Speaker 2: work and life, it's just one part of your identity
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you have to decide
Speaker 2: for yourself. Ok?
Speaker 2: Is someone going to die if I don't reply this
Speaker 2: email at 10 p.m. are no. Yeah, chances are no.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the kind of discipline that you
Speaker 2: also should set for yourself and not just for yourself,
Speaker 2: but also for your child because they also need to
Speaker 2: know that sometimes, ok, you know, mommy is prioritizing me, right?
Speaker 2: And also that there are certain boundaries. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think you can't be checking your emails all the time
Speaker 2: and then when your child want screen time, it is
Speaker 2: very hard to explain,
Speaker 1: right? Like why you can but the child cannot.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 2: all things I I in the back of my mind. Ok?
Speaker 2: So if you thought about it in the back of
Speaker 2: my mind, I thought about it haven't landed. But,
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, just overall right at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, you choose what's most important to you.
Speaker 2: You try and have it all. But I think we
Speaker 2: don't do everything at the same level. You know what
Speaker 2: I mean? Sometimes you willingly give things up even though
Speaker 2: it could be nice. But I think sometimes you willingly
Speaker 2: give things up. If there was something more important to you.
Speaker 1: I go back to my favorite metaphor, rubber balls or
Speaker 1: glass balls. What can you afford to drop and not
Speaker 1: have it shattered at this point in time in your life?
Speaker 1: I think this episode of Nadia really provides many good reminders,
Speaker 1: you know that like women or men alike, we can
Speaker 1: have it all but just not all at the same time.
Speaker 1: But any final words for our listeners out
Speaker 1: there?
Speaker 2: Wow. Final words so heavy.
Speaker 1: Ok, I help you. What do you think people can
Speaker 1: do
Speaker 2: or like women, especially to not pressure themselves into thinking
Speaker 2: that they have to excel in every area? Yeah. You know,
Speaker 2: I think the most important thing for me personally is
Speaker 2: that society will have expectations of you. It's, they can't
Speaker 2: help themselves. I say, fuck them. Really? It's your life.
Speaker 2: You live what I always say, it's true. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, even something as, you know, as an example
Speaker 2: during political campaigning,
Speaker 2: you'll see that there are polls about which women candidates
Speaker 2: are the most attractive. Really? Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: some random websites,
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: zone zone
Speaker 2: and you'll see even articles, you know, saying like this
Speaker 2: is what the women candidates are wearing to the nomination centers.
Speaker 2: And so the expectation, I mean, the sort of implication
Speaker 2: then is you are expected to look good.
Speaker 2: Well, while you are walking, you know, sweating your guts out,
Speaker 2: but you're still expected to make sure you look very
Speaker 2: well and put together and you're expected to be smart
Speaker 2: but maybe don't talk back too much because otherwise, then
Speaker 2: your opinion is that someone who you should take the lead. But,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe when you're young, maybe you're called bossy.
Speaker 2: This is like the whole Barbie, this is like the,
Speaker 2: the barbie mono, which I could not deliver with justice.
Speaker 2: So I shall not.
Speaker 2: But I think that at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: what's most important is your own expectations of yourself. And
Speaker 2: it's ok if you don't have it all figured out now,
Speaker 2: it's ok if it changes along the way, I think
Speaker 2: what's most important is that you and the people closest
Speaker 2: to you,
Speaker 2: the people who you love, you're very clear of where
Speaker 2: that sort of North Star and love bubble is and
Speaker 2: that should be what you think about when you're making
Speaker 2: all these big decisions in life. So people can have expectations.
Speaker 2: Um Azura put it eloquently which I will not say.
Speaker 2: But, you know, I think while it's all well and
Speaker 2: good and some of it is just well meaning advice,
Speaker 2: you know, which you can, you can consider by the
Speaker 2: end of the day, you know, go back to what
Speaker 2: feels real and what feels right for you. And I'll
Speaker 2: tell you why I'm so against expectations, right? Especially from
Speaker 2: an outside point of view. It's only because at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, the one who has to deal
Speaker 2: with the consequences of that decision is yours yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They have no idea. Yeah, they tell you what to do.
Speaker 2: But if that's not what you want and you do listen,
Speaker 2: you're paying for it, it's not them. Yeah, they're gonna
Speaker 2: go home and think about something else. Five minutes. Correct. Correct. Honestly,
Speaker 2: you know. So
Speaker 1: yeah,
Speaker 1: so I would just say live for yourself and just
Speaker 1: be happy in that process and in that journey with that.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Nadia for joining us. I love
Speaker 1: the IG handle. By the way, it's called something going
Speaker 1: on
Speaker 2: something going on.
Speaker 2: Cute, cute.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Follow Nadia on Instagram and follow us as well
Speaker 1: at isle.co. That's right. You can listen to us on me.
Speaker 2: Listen, Apple
Speaker 1: podcast,
Speaker 2: Spotify,
Speaker 1: turn
Speaker 2: on your notifications.
Speaker 1: We're also on youtube. So feel free to subscribe to
Speaker 1: us and leave comments in the comment section down below.
Speaker 1: I read them. Ok. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: Nadia and read all the comments. It will drive you crazy.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 1: It's true. That's very true.
Speaker 1: That's very true as well. Alrighty guys, take care. We'll
Speaker 1: see you guys next time. Bye.