WEBVTT - Will Donald Trump save TikTok from exiting the US? 0:00:03.130 --> 0:00:05.320 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:11.659 --> 0:00:14.810 You see how I do my makeup for work? Very demure, 0:00:15.090 --> 0:00:17.729 very mindful. I don't come to work with a green 0:00:17.729 --> 0:00:18.559 cut crease. 0:00:18.729 --> 0:00:21.530 It's just this massive lion, and to have him charge 0:00:21.530 --> 0:00:23.020 me on foot, it was. 0:00:23.500 --> 0:00:27.940 Pretty terrifying. I'm opening it now. I can't look. Please 0:00:27.940 --> 0:00:31.899 be the green one. Please be the green one. That's 0:00:31.899 --> 0:00:37.500 just a taste of TikTok, viral trends, dramatic personal stories, unboxings. 0:00:37.580 --> 0:00:42.209 It's entertaining and addictive. Some call it a vibrant online forum, 0:00:42.459 --> 0:00:46.138 others call it a digital drug. Whatever the case, TikTok's 0:00:46.139 --> 0:00:48.380 time in America may be running out. 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:49.659 This is why 0:00:49.659 --> 0:00:52.310 the government is arguing that the protecting Americans from Foreign 0:00:52.310 --> 0:00:57.540 adversary Controlled Applications Act is entirely consistent with the First Amendment, 0:00:57.709 --> 0:01:00.549 and Congress has every right to pass a law forcing 0:01:00.549 --> 0:01:03.709 a sale or ban of T TickTok because the government 0:01:03.709 --> 0:01:06.160 says the platform is a puppet of China. 0:01:06.750 --> 0:01:08.339 Is the Chinese government really? 0:01:08.595 --> 0:01:12.044 Controlling the platform and harvesting the data the app collects. 0:01:12.205 --> 0:01:17.044 Parent company ByteDance denies that. Meantime, incoming US President Donald 0:01:17.044 --> 0:01:21.235 Trump has gone from backing a TikTok ban to backing off, 0:01:21.404 --> 0:01:25.164 asking the Supreme Court to press pause on restrictions so 0:01:25.165 --> 0:01:28.245 his new administration can pursue a political resolution. 0:01:28.660 --> 0:01:31.289 So lots of ground to cover. Let's bring in Washington 0:01:31.290 --> 0:01:36.480 correspondent Benji Hier and Beijing correspondent Olivia Xiong. Happy New Year, guys. 0:01:36.769 --> 0:01:40.529 Happy New Year. Theresa. You know, I remember when TikTok 0:01:40.529 --> 0:01:42.970 was just emerging and people were trying it out for 0:01:42.970 --> 0:01:46.529 the first time and I had friends tell me this algorithm, 0:01:46.569 --> 0:01:48.970 it hits different, you know, this platform, it knows what 0:01:48.970 --> 0:01:51.650 I want to watch before I even know I want 0:01:51.650 --> 0:01:52.250 to watch it. 0:01:52.849 --> 0:01:58.089 Benji, TikTok has 1 billion active monthly users, but 170 0:01:58.089 --> 0:02:01.569 million of them are in America. Just how big is 0:02:01.569 --> 0:02:02.720 the app in the US? 0:02:03.330 --> 0:02:05.790 Well, I'm one of those users and like you, I feel, 0:02:05.889 --> 0:02:08.009 I feel like the algorithm knows me better than I 0:02:08.008 --> 0:02:10.448 know myself. And and the reason, I guess like any 0:02:10.449 --> 0:02:13.160 social media application is that the more that we use it, 0:02:13.169 --> 0:02:16.250 the more we scroll and scroll, the more the algorithm 0:02:16.250 --> 0:02:18.770 learns about us, can, can give us content that we 0:02:18.770 --> 0:02:21.490 think we're after. And that's an experience not only that 0:02:21.490 --> 0:02:24.330 I have, but as you say, millions across the United States. 0:02:24.410 --> 0:02:27.369 Just some stats on that. American adults spend an average 0:02:27.369 --> 0:02:29.130 of almost 1 hour per day. 0:02:29.225 --> 0:02:32.175 On TikTok, and that of course means that TikTok is 0:02:32.175 --> 0:02:35.654 able to reach revenue in the many, many billions in 0:02:35.654 --> 0:02:38.895 the US, 16 billion in 2023. Obviously we have to 0:02:38.895 --> 0:02:43.255 wait for 2024 figures. And the thing about TikTok that 0:02:43.255 --> 0:02:47.323 makes it so interesting for not just users but also 0:02:47.324 --> 0:02:49.413 creators on it is that there is an opportunity for 0:02:49.413 --> 0:02:52.085 them to make money too, right? So if you are 0:02:52.335 --> 0:02:55.184 creating output as an influencer, you can earn. 0:02:55.699 --> 0:02:59.679 Tiny amounts per 1000 views, but if you're getting millions 0:02:59.679 --> 0:03:02.240 of views, that adds up. The last thing I'd just 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.149 say in terms of TikTok's influence, obviously there's the money, 0:03:05.258 --> 0:03:08.770 obviously there's the influences. There is the political element as well, 0:03:08.839 --> 0:03:11.880 and we are gonna talk about Donald Trump, but you know, 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.839 his presence on TikTok, both directly and indirectly, him posting 0:03:15.839 --> 0:03:19.320 from his account or right wing influences putting up the 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.869 sort of content that that can draw in a key audience. 0:03:22.449 --> 0:03:25.449 That obviously was huge during the US election campaign here. 0:03:25.529 --> 0:03:27.770 So the app is big on a number of fronts. 0:03:27.929 --> 0:03:31.210 It would be really big, therefore, if it's banned. But hey, 0:03:31.250 --> 0:03:33.880 it's happened before. It's happened in other places like India, 0:03:33.929 --> 0:03:36.610 and it could, it could well happen in the US 0:03:36.610 --> 0:03:38.509 as well. Yeah, we're going to dive deeper into that. 0:03:38.570 --> 0:03:42.479 But first, Olivia, TikTok, not available in China, but there 0:03:42.479 --> 0:03:45.789 is an equivalent called Douyin. Did I pronounce that correctly? 0:03:47.210 --> 0:03:51.089 Doing Doyin, OK. ByteDance owns both of these apps. How 0:03:51.089 --> 0:03:51.850 similar are they? 0:03:52.419 --> 0:03:55.929 Well, we, we sometimes hear people refer to TikTok as 0:03:55.929 --> 0:03:59.699 the international version of Douyin, which actually translates to a 0:03:59.699 --> 0:04:04.020 shaking sound or Douyin as the Chinese version of TikTok, 0:04:04.059 --> 0:04:07.300 that's quite understandable. They are very similar, both, you know, 0:04:07.380 --> 0:04:12.809 originated as short video sharing platforms, they have very similar interfaces, 0:04:13.100 --> 0:04:16.269 but instead of being the same product, I would actually 0:04:16.269 --> 0:04:17.149 say they are more like 0:04:17.209 --> 0:04:20.269 siblings, you know, with the same parent company, but they 0:04:20.269 --> 0:04:24.849 have their own very distinct personalities and beings for that matter, 0:04:25.029 --> 0:04:27.159 and I must admit, in the name of very good 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.760 rigorous research, I have spent quite a bit of time 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.750 on these two apps more than usual, but I've had 0:04:33.750 --> 0:04:36.428 to use two different devices because one of the biggest 0:04:36.428 --> 0:04:40.790 differences is its availability. So Douyin can only be downloaded 0:04:40.790 --> 0:04:42.070 when you're on the. 0:04:42.238 --> 0:04:44.200 Chinese app store, so I have to use my China 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.609 mobile phone for that. Uh, while TikTok is only available 0:04:47.609 --> 0:04:51.079 in uh app stores outside of China, in fact, has 0:04:51.079 --> 0:04:55.839 never been made available on uh Mainland China. Audience wise 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.579 as well, TikTok has more than 1 billion monthly active 0:04:59.579 --> 0:05:04.950 users in 150 countries apart from China. Douyin has less, 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:07.070 over 700 million users. 0:05:07.220 --> 0:05:10.488 But all in China and it's the 2nd most popular 0:05:10.488 --> 0:05:14.649 social media platform in China after WeChat, but it is 0:05:14.649 --> 0:05:18.079 the most popular out of the video streaming apps in China. 0:05:18.410 --> 0:05:22.970 Arguably Douyin has seen greater success with e-commerce, bringing it 0:05:22.970 --> 0:05:26.369 huge amounts of revenue. There's also this other fun, you know, 0:05:26.570 --> 0:05:30.769 little difference between Douyin and TikTok. The filter, actually if 0:05:30.769 --> 0:05:32.130 you try to take a selfie of yourself. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.179 is different. You should give it a go and see 0:05:35.178 --> 0:05:38.579 how you look. But content-wise, they are two separate apps. 0:05:38.779 --> 0:05:42.099 What you upload on one platform can't be automatically found 0:05:42.100 --> 0:05:46.140 on the other. So it's perhaps what's happening behind the 0:05:46.140 --> 0:05:49.230 scenes that has caused a bit more skepticism even though 0:05:49.230 --> 0:05:53.130 for users, these are two different apps. Let's get into 0:05:53.130 --> 0:05:57.190 the politics now. Benji, the argument from the Biden administration. 0:05:57.380 --> 0:06:00.760 is that the app poses a serious national security threat 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.729 that China's Communist Party can use it for its political ends. 0:06:04.928 --> 0:06:08.368 What exactly is Washington afraid of? It's actually a really 0:06:08.369 --> 0:06:10.809 difficult question to answer and the reason it's difficult to 0:06:10.809 --> 0:06:14.010 answer is because from the US government's perspective, their argument, 0:06:14.089 --> 0:06:16.769 as you say, is about data and national security and 0:06:16.769 --> 0:06:19.529 therefore it's kind of tough to get down to the 0:06:19.529 --> 0:06:21.969 details of what they're worried about because so much of 0:06:21.970 --> 0:06:23.250 it is is redacted. 0:06:23.709 --> 0:06:25.349 When they try and put their case forward and when 0:06:25.350 --> 0:06:27.589 the White House presented their case and that case was 0:06:27.589 --> 0:06:30.670 upheld by a court here in the US, it was 0:06:30.670 --> 0:06:33.750 really thin on the ground on those specifics because, well, 0:06:33.829 --> 0:06:37.950 naturally the government is wary about publicizing sensitive information, but 0:06:37.950 --> 0:06:40.839 of course, how do you prove your case without actually 0:06:41.109 --> 0:06:43.599 showing something. But here's kind of the overall idea that 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.589 the Biden administration is putting forward, which is that TikTok collects. 0:06:48.187 --> 0:06:51.546 data on Americans, which, OK, it happens with other social 0:06:51.546 --> 0:06:55.416 media websites, Facebook or Instagram for example. But what's different 0:06:55.416 --> 0:06:59.786 with TikTok is that the US government alleges that uh 0:06:59.786 --> 0:07:04.536 that information can be used by China to influence politics 0:07:04.536 --> 0:07:07.346 here in America, even to spy on people or inject 0:07:07.346 --> 0:07:11.707 malicious software into people's devices or phones. Back in 20. 0:07:11.843 --> 0:07:15.493 22, Christopher Wray, he's the outgoing director of the FBI. 0:07:15.783 --> 0:07:19.023 He told Congress that, and I'm quoting here, the Chinese 0:07:19.023 --> 0:07:22.864 government could control the algorithm, he says, which could use 0:07:22.864 --> 0:07:27.384 to be influencing operations and that China angle, of course, 0:07:27.503 --> 0:07:30.824 coming from the fact that TikTok's owner, Byte Dan is 0:07:30.824 --> 0:07:33.864 based in Beijing. Now, look, it's important to stress that 0:07:33.864 --> 0:07:35.824 China denies these sorts of theories. 0:07:36.460 --> 0:07:39.501 And much of the risk is is theoretical. But if 0:07:39.501 --> 0:07:41.901 you look at the rhetoric that has come from many 0:07:41.901 --> 0:07:45.300 lawmakers in the US, they point to specific examples, one 0:07:45.300 --> 0:07:49.460 of which is an incident back in 2022, in which 0:07:49.460 --> 0:07:53.300 ByteDance admitted that some of its employees did access the 0:07:53.300 --> 0:07:56.571 data of journalists in the West to try to check 0:07:56.571 --> 0:08:00.780 their locations, see if they were meeting TikTok employees suspected 0:08:00.781 --> 0:08:02.890 of leaking information to the media. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.130 And the last thing on this is that yes, this 0:08:06.130 --> 0:08:08.250 app is hugely popular. We were just talking about how 0:08:08.250 --> 0:08:10.529 many users they are, but there is a notion in 0:08:10.529 --> 0:08:14.570 the political world here in Washington that TikTok is a danger. 0:08:14.730 --> 0:08:18.209 That is the political consensus. It is already banned on 0:08:18.209 --> 0:08:20.500 government devices and even Donald Trump. 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.959 endorsed a national ban when he was first in the 0:08:23.959 --> 0:08:27.519 White House. So certainly there is a concern amongst the 0:08:27.519 --> 0:08:31.239 government and all areas of US government about TikTok and 0:08:31.239 --> 0:08:34.679 the risks that they see given its association potentially to 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.239 the Chinese state. Yeah, and Washington saying, you know what, 0:08:37.479 --> 0:08:40.400 shed that Chinese ownership or get out, right? I want 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.109 to pick up on the point of national security, Olivia. 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.000 What has been China's response to Washington's allegations and just 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:48.760 how Chinese is TikTok? 0:08:49.989 --> 0:08:52.359 That is the big question, but there's also like what 0:08:52.359 --> 0:08:55.950 Benji mentioned, right? There is the argument and then there's 0:08:55.950 --> 0:08:59.189 perception as well, and then what do the US lawmakers 0:08:59.190 --> 0:09:00.789 or the Supreme Court buy? 0:09:01.140 --> 0:09:04.689 If you look at TikTok Inc which offers the TikTok app, 0:09:04.859 --> 0:09:08.619 it is incorporated in California and Delaware. It has its 0:09:08.619 --> 0:09:12.890 headquarters in Singapore and Los Angeles, and that's the argument 0:09:12.890 --> 0:09:15.459 that TikTok has tried to use to prove its independence 0:09:15.460 --> 0:09:17.819 from the Chinese government. It says that it is subject 0:09:17.820 --> 0:09:21.179 to American laws and not Chinese ones, but perhaps the 0:09:21.179 --> 0:09:25.579 bigger question here is with TikTok's parent company ByteDance, is 0:09:25.580 --> 0:09:29.348 it Chinese? To give you some background, ByteDance was founded. 0:09:29.408 --> 0:09:33.317 By Chinese entrepreneurs Jiang Yiming and Liang Bo Bo, who 0:09:33.317 --> 0:09:38.838 went to Nankai University in China's North Tianjin. 43-year-old Zhang Yimming, 0:09:38.877 --> 0:09:41.918 who hails from Fujian province in the south, has also 0:09:41.918 --> 0:09:46.317 been named China's richest person in 2024 with a net 0:09:46.317 --> 0:09:50.947 worth estimated at $49.3 billion. Now he stepped down from 0:09:50.947 --> 0:09:54.697 his role as ByteDance CEO in 2021 and under that lens, 0:09:54.718 --> 0:09:57.227 it would seem ByteDance is a Chinese company. 0:09:57.785 --> 0:10:00.204 So if you were to look at the TikTok website, 0:10:00.255 --> 0:10:03.135 it has been trying to distance itself from this. In 0:10:03.135 --> 0:10:06.856 a section it has where it tries to debunk what 0:10:06.856 --> 0:10:10.135 it says are myths about TikTok. It says one of 0:10:10.135 --> 0:10:14.056 these myths is that ByteDance is Chinese owned. It claims 0:10:14.056 --> 0:10:17.966 that about 60% of the company is owned by global 0:10:17.966 --> 0:10:22.765 institutional investors and that co-founder Zhang Yiming holds a 20% 0:10:22.765 --> 0:10:25.856 stake in the company and they say he is a 0:10:25.856 --> 0:10:26.116 private 0:10:26.463 --> 0:10:30.393 individual and not part of any state or government entity. 0:10:30.513 --> 0:10:34.114 ByteDance is based in Beijing, it is incorporated in the 0:10:34.114 --> 0:10:37.073 Cayman Islands. It also claims it does not have a 0:10:37.073 --> 0:10:40.823 single global headquarters and that's where it gets tricky, right? 0:10:41.033 --> 0:10:45.213 The US authorities say Chinese companies are required to do 0:10:45.213 --> 0:10:49.174 whatever the Chinese government wants in terms of sharing information, 0:10:49.473 --> 0:10:52.624 US members of Congress complain about the Chinese government having 0:10:52.624 --> 0:10:54.434 a golden share. 0:10:54.541 --> 0:10:59.452 In ByteDance, but TikTok has refuted this. Under Chinese law, 0:10:59.552 --> 0:11:03.692 it says that because of media licensing requirements and entity 0:11:03.692 --> 0:11:08.881 affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1% of a ByteDance subsidiary, 0:11:09.211 --> 0:11:12.011 but it says that this arrangement is only for specific 0:11:12.011 --> 0:11:16.252 services in the Chinese market and it has no bearing 0:11:16.252 --> 0:11:20.071 on its global operations outside of China, including for TikTok. 0:11:20.331 --> 0:11:22.881 The question though is whether this argument 0:11:23.289 --> 0:11:25.489 Will be something that the US buys into. 0:11:26.989 --> 0:11:31.339 I'm gonna say TikTok. Do you recognize that voice? Yes, 0:11:31.460 --> 0:11:35.539 that's US President-elect Donald Trump, saying back in June that 0:11:35.539 --> 0:11:38.390 he would save TikTok. Just before the new year, Mr. 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.380 Trump filed a request with the Supreme Court to delay 0:11:41.380 --> 0:11:44.409 the ban. He says he needs some time to find 0:11:44.409 --> 0:11:49.030 a negotiated resolution and keep in mind Benji, you mentioned this. Mr. 0:11:49.099 --> 0:11:51.390 Trump was the leader who first put a ban on 0:11:51.390 --> 0:11:52.780 the table back in 2020. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.189 So my question to you is, why is he now 0:11:56.190 --> 0:11:58.960 so keen to keep it around? Yeah, he's gone through 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.679 quite a transformation here, and I, I've just come back 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.039 off the end of covering the 2024 presidential campaign, which 0:12:05.039 --> 0:12:07.190 Donald Trump won, of course, and I saw a lot 0:12:07.190 --> 0:12:09.330 of him and what I've realized is he is, he's 0:12:09.330 --> 0:12:12.080 an unpredictable man. It can be complicated to work out 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.520 where he sits on a certain issue. For me though, 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.210 I think on TikTok it's, it's actually pretty clear cut. 0:12:17.750 --> 0:12:20.739 Because the app served him really well during the election, 0:12:20.770 --> 0:12:23.468 you know, getting the sort of bro vote as it's known, 0:12:23.650 --> 0:12:26.750 young men especially to engage in his campaign. There's a 0:12:26.750 --> 0:12:30.390 bit of overlap between the campaign and the tech world. 0:12:30.429 --> 0:12:34.069 One of his billionaire mega donors, someone called Jeff Yass, 0:12:34.109 --> 0:12:37.760 he has an investment firm which owns a chunk of 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.950 TikTok's parent company. We also saw the president-elect recently meet. 0:12:42.054 --> 0:12:46.364 The Singaporean CEO of TikTok, and Trump has since argued 0:12:46.364 --> 0:12:49.515 that the, the timing of this law that we're exploring 0:12:49.515 --> 0:12:52.564 where TikTok has to be sold, you know, by ByteDance 0:12:52.565 --> 0:12:56.125 or face a ban, he says that that law interferes 0:12:56.125 --> 0:12:59.885 with his own ability to manage the United States' foreign 0:12:59.885 --> 0:13:03.655 policy and national security, not to mention First Amendment rights. 0:13:04.044 --> 0:13:06.465 I think overall though, this is my theory, which is, 0:13:07.090 --> 0:13:11.250 Donald Trump just likes being popular, right? He, he boasts 0:13:11.250 --> 0:13:13.890 all the time about his biggest crowds, his winning the 0:13:13.890 --> 0:13:17.609 popular vote, best this, biggest that, being a star on 0:13:17.609 --> 0:13:20.049 the app, he says that he has a warm spot 0:13:20.049 --> 0:13:22.770 in his heart for TikTok, and I think that the 0:13:22.770 --> 0:13:25.849 bottom line is just like he just enjoys the positive 0:13:25.849 --> 0:13:29.049 attention that TikTok has granted him. He has the unfettered ability. 0:13:29.419 --> 0:13:33.900 To spread his message to 1415 million followers. So from 0:13:33.900 --> 0:13:39.700 Trump's perspective, you know, never mind those pesky national security concerns, which, yeah, 0:13:39.820 --> 0:13:42.169 he raised in the past, but those don't matter now. 0:13:42.340 --> 0:13:46.109 TikTok is good for me. I like TikTok, let's keep TikTok. And, 0:13:46.119 --> 0:13:48.858 and now that he's president again or or soon to 0:13:48.859 --> 0:13:49.869 be president again. 0:13:50.169 --> 0:13:53.640 He could try and prevent that ban for that reason, right, 0:13:53.650 --> 0:13:56.400 casting himself as the platform savior, and I think really 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.289 that that that's it, that's the reality. Yeah, and influencers 0:13:59.289 --> 0:14:03.020 would love him for that, right? OK, so Mr. Trump's appeal, 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.929 could it work, you know, how likely is the Supreme 0:14:05.929 --> 0:14:07.919 Court to overturn or pause the ban? 0:14:08.830 --> 0:14:11.239 That is the million dollar question, and we're gonna find 0:14:11.239 --> 0:14:14.080 out quite soon because the Supreme Court is holding its 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.880 hearing on TikTok on January 10th, and if, if it 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.640 decides to take up the case, first of all, President 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.159 Biden would have to issue an extension on that deadline 0:14:24.159 --> 0:14:28.039 for ByteDance to sell TikTok. Otherwise that expires on the 19th. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.039 That's the day before Trump's inauguration. 0:14:30.479 --> 0:14:33.159 If you're asking to sort of predict what the Supreme 0:14:33.159 --> 0:14:36.359 Court is gonna do, I think that's less actually to 0:14:36.359 --> 0:14:38.880 do with the cases in which you're stronger on either side. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.150 It's more to do with where the justices lie politically 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.169 and ideologically. This is a conservative leaning court. 0:14:46.385 --> 0:14:50.775 Who might agree with TikTok's argument about the constitutional right 0:14:50.775 --> 0:14:53.575 to free speech, the First Amendment. It is also though 0:14:53.575 --> 0:14:56.934 a Trump leaning court. It has ruled in the president 0:14:56.934 --> 0:15:00.424 elect's favor on a number of matters of late, for instance, 0:15:00.455 --> 0:15:02.294 granting him presidential immunity. 0:15:02.770 --> 0:15:04.609 TikTok could also go in front of the court, right, 0:15:04.659 --> 0:15:09.169 and it could argue that it is practically impossible to 0:15:09.169 --> 0:15:11.450 ban this app. You know, there was a bill that 0:15:11.450 --> 0:15:13.770 went through Congress and it suggested that the way that 0:15:13.770 --> 0:15:16.489 they would do this is they would penalize app stores 0:15:16.489 --> 0:15:20.849 or internet providers for hosting versions of the app. I mean, yeah, 0:15:20.890 --> 0:15:23.419 the US government is, you know, big and important, but 0:15:23.419 --> 0:15:25.969 good luck imposing that sort of rule on on Apple 0:15:25.969 --> 0:15:28.849 or or Google, and there'd be huge uproar amongst the 0:15:28.849 --> 0:15:31.400 public as well, not that that stopped the Supreme Court, so. 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.400 I don't know. I actually don't know which way this 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:36.679 is going to go. We don't even know if the 0:15:36.679 --> 0:15:38.630 Supreme Court are going to take it up or when 0:15:38.630 --> 0:15:40.840 they'd have this decision. And then of course Trump's in 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.349 the White House and he may decide to intervene as well. 0:15:44.799 --> 0:15:47.640 So it's going to be a really interesting couple of 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.479 weeks ahead, I think for TikTok. Definitely, yeah, I want 0:15:50.479 --> 0:15:52.479 to pick up on that thought in a moment, but Olivia, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.669 you know, since the law was passed last year. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:16:00.140 TikTok said the ban violates First Amendment protections. It's unconstitutional 0:16:00.390 --> 0:16:03.109 and the Chinese government has called Washington to respect the 0:16:03.109 --> 0:16:07.710 market economy, respect fair competition. How much more reactive could 0:16:07.710 --> 0:16:09.059 Beijing get over this? 0:16:09.859 --> 0:16:12.940 Oh, with the latest developments, we have seen Chinese media 0:16:12.940 --> 0:16:17.400 like the China Daily say that the potential reprieve is 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.739 a positive development, but other than that, the Chinese response 0:16:20.739 --> 0:16:24.260 has been relatively measured or muted for that fact. If 0:16:24.260 --> 0:16:27.219 you would just think back to March last year, in 0:16:27.219 --> 0:16:30.020 the lead up to and just after the US House 0:16:30.020 --> 0:16:32.900 of Representatives passed the sell or ban bill paving the 0:16:32.900 --> 0:16:33.539 way for it to be. 0:16:33.645 --> 0:16:38.245 Eventually signed into law. In April, China's Foreign Ministry famously 0:16:38.245 --> 0:16:42.916 called it quote sheer robbers' logic in which it accused 0:16:42.916 --> 0:16:46.356 the US of trying to snatch from others all the 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:49.466 good things that they have, calling it an abuse of 0:16:49.695 --> 0:16:53.986 national security to bring down competitive companies of other countries, 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:57.616 saying that there is no fairness or justice. But since 0:16:57.771 --> 0:17:00.851 Then there's been a shift in the Chinese government's intensity 0:17:00.851 --> 0:17:03.811 of response and we've seen that as this ban of 0:17:03.812 --> 0:17:08.482 TikTok has become more of a reality. Reports suggest that, 0:17:08.491 --> 0:17:11.732 you know, after proceedings got going, TikTok chose to take 0:17:11.732 --> 0:17:14.251 the case to the courts and to let its team 0:17:14.251 --> 0:17:18.651 in the US, which famously is led by its Singaporean 0:17:18.651 --> 0:17:21.620 CEO Sho Chuu, he had famously highlighted. 0:17:21.677 --> 0:17:26.307 his nationality, TikTok choosing to let that team handle the 0:17:26.307 --> 0:17:30.988 political lobbying and the legal battle. Questions about ongoing developments 0:17:30.988 --> 0:17:34.147 relating to the ban in Beijing have been met with 0:17:34.147 --> 0:17:38.338 answers from Chinese spokespersons just deferring back to their past statements. 0:17:38.667 --> 0:17:40.748 And again, it would seem that the Chinese government is 0:17:40.748 --> 0:17:44.547 trying to show relative restraint now, trying to distance itself 0:17:44.547 --> 0:17:45.647 or perhaps keep its 0:17:46.354 --> 0:17:49.042 He quite close to its chest, as Benji mentioned, there's 0:17:49.042 --> 0:17:51.994 still a lot of uncertainty with what's going to happen, 0:17:52.083 --> 0:17:55.614 but analysts have also said that, you know, this shouldn't 0:17:55.614 --> 0:17:58.654 be taken as an indication that China is going to 0:17:58.654 --> 0:18:02.833 back off or take this lying down. So my question is, 0:18:03.374 --> 0:18:06.234 do you even think China would allow the sale of 0:18:06.234 --> 0:18:08.322 TikTok if it meant staying in America? That seems like 0:18:08.323 --> 0:18:09.552 a really big ask. 0:18:09.979 --> 0:18:12.810 Yeah, we haven't really heard directly, you know, from China 0:18:12.810 --> 0:18:16.159 on what it would do, perhaps because of all these uncertainties, 0:18:16.489 --> 0:18:19.609 but there have been statements to show that China is 0:18:19.609 --> 0:18:22.209 not going to let up on this and it is 0:18:22.209 --> 0:18:26.369 quite unlikely to let a sale go through. In March 2023, 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.719 China's Commerce Ministry then outrightly said that it is firmly 0:18:30.719 --> 0:18:34.149 opposed to a forced sale of TikTok and the tricky 0:18:34.150 --> 0:18:36.609 part here is with TikTok's algorithm, the ministry. 0:18:36.984 --> 0:18:40.836 said that the sale or divestiture of TikTok is subject 0:18:40.836 --> 0:18:45.515 to Chinese laws because it involves technology export and therefore, 0:18:45.645 --> 0:18:50.245 it is subject to administrative licensing procedures. It also said 0:18:50.244 --> 0:18:52.965 the Chinese government will make a decision in accordance with 0:18:52.965 --> 0:18:55.806 the law. Don't forget that this has been like we've 0:18:55.806 --> 0:18:59.275 been talking about a long standing issue dating back to Mr. 0:18:59.286 --> 0:19:01.845 Trump's first term in office where he pushed for a 0:19:01.845 --> 0:19:03.436 ban on the app in 2020. 0:19:04.281 --> 0:19:08.321 amid an escalating China-US tech war, China actually moved to 0:19:08.321 --> 0:19:12.482 revise its catalog of technologies that are subject to export 0:19:12.482 --> 0:19:17.802 bans or restrictions, all pointing to targeting TikTok's price data 0:19:17.802 --> 0:19:22.001 mining algorithm that pushes that content to people that has 0:19:22.001 --> 0:19:25.802 made it so successful and what all this means is 0:19:25.802 --> 0:19:28.811 ByteDance may not be able to make a decision of 0:19:28.811 --> 0:19:30.161 a sale on its own. 0:19:30.420 --> 0:19:33.510 And that may also be where the conundrum lies for TikTok, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.680 even as it tries to make the argument in case 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.750 that it does not have ties with the Chinese government. 0:19:39.839 --> 0:19:43.179 There are few possible scenarios here, right? We talked about 0:19:43.180 --> 0:19:46.560 letting the sale go through, which would be most unlikely 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:46.800 to have. 0:19:47.165 --> 0:19:50.655 as it would make China look weak, especially as it 0:19:50.655 --> 0:19:55.165 has framed this as an abuse of national security concerns 0:19:55.165 --> 0:19:58.604 by the US. Don't forget that observers are also pointing 0:19:58.604 --> 0:20:01.675 out that China is very mindful of this domestic audience 0:20:01.675 --> 0:20:03.275 and how it's perceived as well. 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:07.489 Another option some say is for ByteDance to sell its 0:20:07.489 --> 0:20:12.728 US business without including the platform's algorithm, but the Chinese 0:20:12.729 --> 0:20:16.958 Commerce Ministry did not respond directly to a question on whether, 0:20:17.170 --> 0:20:19.688 you know, this could be a possibility, and this was 0:20:19.689 --> 0:20:23.659 just last month. Observers including uh Carnegie China say. 0:20:23.723 --> 0:20:26.672 What's most likely to happen then is that China could 0:20:26.672 --> 0:20:30.192 block the sale and that would have greater repercussions for 0:20:30.192 --> 0:20:34.713 China-US ties and could escalate tensions. This would be at 0:20:34.713 --> 0:20:39.512 the expense of ByteDance's business if it's left unable to 0:20:39.512 --> 0:20:42.032 operate in the US, which is a key market, and 0:20:42.032 --> 0:20:43.642 it will be a huge loss for. 0:20:43.855 --> 0:20:47.456 Talk in terms of revenue as well. But experts asking 0:20:47.455 --> 0:20:51.666 that this could possibly let China gain political leverage amid 0:20:51.666 --> 0:20:57.176 this China-US rivalry. OK, then before we go, Benji, let's 0:20:57.176 --> 0:20:59.696 fast forward a few days, you know, so say the 0:20:59.696 --> 0:21:03.936 law is upheld. January 19th comes around, TikTok is banned, 0:21:04.296 --> 0:21:07.296 but then the day after on January 20th, Donald Trump 0:21:07.296 --> 0:21:10.875 is inaugurated as president. Could he still intervene at that 0:21:10.875 --> 0:21:12.086 point and maybe save it? 0:21:12.819 --> 0:21:15.380 So actually, yes, he could try and there's a couple 0:21:15.380 --> 0:21:18.250 of things he could do, but they all have problems. If, 0:21:18.260 --> 0:21:21.579 if we go one by one, firstly, he could ask 0:21:21.579 --> 0:21:25.050 Congress to repeal the legislation. So Congress is the, the 0:21:25.050 --> 0:21:27.380 body that passed this bill. He could go back to 0:21:27.380 --> 0:21:30.180 them and say, reverse it. It's possible. I mean, he 0:21:30.180 --> 0:21:33.109 holds both chambers of Congress narrowly, but there would be 0:21:33.109 --> 0:21:36.060 a big backlash, I think, amongst some of the Sino 0:21:36.060 --> 0:21:39.979 skeptic representatives on Capitol Hill, as well as arguably some 0:21:39.979 --> 0:21:41.849 American social media companies. 0:21:42.151 --> 0:21:45.232 OK, so that's option one. Option two would be to 0:21:45.232 --> 0:21:48.911 take executive action. So don't go back to Congress, just 0:21:48.911 --> 0:21:52.781 go down and ask his Justice Department to effectively abstain 0:21:52.991 --> 0:21:56.232 from enforcing the law. The issue with that is that 0:21:56.232 --> 0:21:59.671 the law still remains in effect. And so if you're 0:21:59.671 --> 0:22:02.952 a company like Apple, even if Donald Trump said don't 0:22:02.952 --> 0:22:05.671 worry about it, you're still in violation of it. So 0:22:05.671 --> 0:22:08.271