Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 1: You see how I do my makeup for work? Very demure,
Speaker 1: very mindful. I don't come to work with a green
Speaker 1: cut crease.
Speaker 2: It's just this massive lion, and to have him charge
Speaker 2: me on foot, it was.
Speaker 2: Pretty terrifying. I'm opening it now. I can't look. Please
Speaker 2: be the green one. Please be the green one. That's
Speaker 2: just a taste of TikTok, viral trends, dramatic personal stories, unboxings.
Speaker 2: It's entertaining and addictive. Some call it a vibrant online forum,
Speaker 2: others call it a digital drug. Whatever the case, TikTok's
Speaker 2: time in America may be running out.
Speaker 1: This is why
Speaker 1: the government is arguing that the protecting Americans from Foreign
Speaker 1: adversary Controlled Applications Act is entirely consistent with the First Amendment,
Speaker 1: and Congress has every right to pass a law forcing
Speaker 1: a sale or ban of T TickTok because the government
Speaker 1: says the platform is a puppet of China.
Speaker 2: Is the Chinese government really?
Speaker 2: Controlling the platform and harvesting the data the app collects.
Speaker 2: Parent company ByteDance denies that. Meantime, incoming US President Donald
Speaker 2: Trump has gone from backing a TikTok ban to backing off,
Speaker 2: asking the Supreme Court to press pause on restrictions so
Speaker 2: his new administration can pursue a political resolution.
Speaker 2: So lots of ground to cover. Let's bring in Washington
Speaker 2: correspondent Benji Hier and Beijing correspondent Olivia Xiong. Happy New Year, guys.
Speaker 2: Happy New Year. Theresa. You know, I remember when TikTok
Speaker 2: was just emerging and people were trying it out for
Speaker 2: the first time and I had friends tell me this algorithm,
Speaker 2: it hits different, you know, this platform, it knows what
Speaker 2: I want to watch before I even know I want
Speaker 2: to watch it.
Speaker 2: Benji, TikTok has 1 billion active monthly users, but 170
Speaker 2: million of them are in America. Just how big is
Speaker 2: the app in the US?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm one of those users and like you, I feel,
Speaker 2: I feel like the algorithm knows me better than I
Speaker 2: know myself. And and the reason, I guess like any
Speaker 2: social media application is that the more that we use it,
Speaker 2: the more we scroll and scroll, the more the algorithm
Speaker 2: learns about us, can, can give us content that we
Speaker 2: think we're after. And that's an experience not only that
Speaker 2: I have, but as you say, millions across the United States.
Speaker 2: Just some stats on that. American adults spend an average
Speaker 2: of almost 1 hour per day.
Speaker 2: On TikTok, and that of course means that TikTok is
Speaker 2: able to reach revenue in the many, many billions in
Speaker 2: the US, 16 billion in 2023. Obviously we have to
Speaker 2: wait for 2024 figures. And the thing about TikTok that
Speaker 2: makes it so interesting for not just users but also
Speaker 2: creators on it is that there is an opportunity for
Speaker 2: them to make money too, right? So if you are
Speaker 2: creating output as an influencer, you can earn.
Speaker 2: Tiny amounts per 1000 views, but if you're getting millions
Speaker 2: of views, that adds up. The last thing I'd just
Speaker 2: say in terms of TikTok's influence, obviously there's the money,
Speaker 2: obviously there's the influences. There is the political element as well,
Speaker 2: and we are gonna talk about Donald Trump, but you know,
Speaker 2: his presence on TikTok, both directly and indirectly, him posting
Speaker 2: from his account or right wing influences putting up the
Speaker 2: sort of content that that can draw in a key audience.
Speaker 2: That obviously was huge during the US election campaign here.
Speaker 2: So the app is big on a number of fronts.
Speaker 2: It would be really big, therefore, if it's banned. But hey,
Speaker 2: it's happened before. It's happened in other places like India,
Speaker 2: and it could, it could well happen in the US
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, we're going to dive deeper into that.
Speaker 2: But first, Olivia, TikTok, not available in China, but there
Speaker 2: is an equivalent called Douyin. Did I pronounce that correctly?
Speaker 2: Doing Doyin, OK. ByteDance owns both of these apps. How
Speaker 2: similar are they?
Speaker 2: Well, we, we sometimes hear people refer to TikTok as
Speaker 2: the international version of Douyin, which actually translates to a
Speaker 2: shaking sound or Douyin as the Chinese version of TikTok,
Speaker 2: that's quite understandable. They are very similar, both, you know,
Speaker 2: originated as short video sharing platforms, they have very similar interfaces,
Speaker 2: but instead of being the same product, I would actually
Speaker 2: say they are more like
Speaker 2: siblings, you know, with the same parent company, but they
Speaker 2: have their own very distinct personalities and beings for that matter,
Speaker 2: and I must admit, in the name of very good
Speaker 2: rigorous research, I have spent quite a bit of time
Speaker 2: on these two apps more than usual, but I've had
Speaker 2: to use two different devices because one of the biggest
Speaker 2: differences is its availability. So Douyin can only be downloaded
Speaker 2: when you're on the.
Speaker 2: Chinese app store, so I have to use my China
Speaker 2: mobile phone for that. Uh, while TikTok is only available
Speaker 2: in uh app stores outside of China, in fact, has
Speaker 2: never been made available on uh Mainland China. Audience wise
Speaker 2: as well, TikTok has more than 1 billion monthly active
Speaker 2: users in 150 countries apart from China. Douyin has less,
Speaker 2: over 700 million users.
Speaker 2: But all in China and it's the 2nd most popular
Speaker 2: social media platform in China after WeChat, but it is
Speaker 2: the most popular out of the video streaming apps in China.
Speaker 2: Arguably Douyin has seen greater success with e-commerce, bringing it
Speaker 2: huge amounts of revenue. There's also this other fun, you know,
Speaker 2: little difference between Douyin and TikTok. The filter, actually if
Speaker 2: you try to take a selfie of yourself.
Speaker 2: is different. You should give it a go and see
Speaker 2: how you look. But content-wise, they are two separate apps.
Speaker 2: What you upload on one platform can't be automatically found
Speaker 2: on the other. So it's perhaps what's happening behind the
Speaker 2: scenes that has caused a bit more skepticism even though
Speaker 2: for users, these are two different apps. Let's get into
Speaker 2: the politics now. Benji, the argument from the Biden administration.
Speaker 2: is that the app poses a serious national security threat
Speaker 2: that China's Communist Party can use it for its political ends.
Speaker 2: What exactly is Washington afraid of? It's actually a really
Speaker 2: difficult question to answer and the reason it's difficult to
Speaker 2: answer is because from the US government's perspective, their argument,
Speaker 2: as you say, is about data and national security and
Speaker 2: therefore it's kind of tough to get down to the
Speaker 2: details of what they're worried about because so much of
Speaker 2: it is is redacted.
Speaker 2: When they try and put their case forward and when
Speaker 2: the White House presented their case and that case was
Speaker 2: upheld by a court here in the US, it was
Speaker 2: really thin on the ground on those specifics because, well,
Speaker 2: naturally the government is wary about publicizing sensitive information, but
Speaker 2: of course, how do you prove your case without actually
Speaker 2: showing something. But here's kind of the overall idea that
Speaker 2: the Biden administration is putting forward, which is that TikTok collects.
Speaker 2: data on Americans, which, OK, it happens with other social
Speaker 2: media websites, Facebook or Instagram for example. But what's different
Speaker 2: with TikTok is that the US government alleges that uh
Speaker 2: that information can be used by China to influence politics
Speaker 2: here in America, even to spy on people or inject
Speaker 2: malicious software into people's devices or phones. Back in 20.
Speaker 2: 22, Christopher Wray, he's the outgoing director of the FBI.
Speaker 2: He told Congress that, and I'm quoting here, the Chinese
Speaker 2: government could control the algorithm, he says, which could use
Speaker 2: to be influencing operations and that China angle, of course,
Speaker 2: coming from the fact that TikTok's owner, Byte Dan is
Speaker 2: based in Beijing. Now, look, it's important to stress that
Speaker 2: China denies these sorts of theories.
Speaker 2: And much of the risk is is theoretical. But if
Speaker 2: you look at the rhetoric that has come from many
Speaker 2: lawmakers in the US, they point to specific examples, one
Speaker 2: of which is an incident back in 2022, in which
Speaker 2: ByteDance admitted that some of its employees did access the
Speaker 2: data of journalists in the West to try to check
Speaker 2: their locations, see if they were meeting TikTok employees suspected
Speaker 2: of leaking information to the media.
Speaker 2: And the last thing on this is that yes, this
Speaker 2: app is hugely popular. We were just talking about how
Speaker 2: many users they are, but there is a notion in
Speaker 2: the political world here in Washington that TikTok is a danger.
Speaker 2: That is the political consensus. It is already banned on
Speaker 2: government devices and even Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: endorsed a national ban when he was first in the
Speaker 2: White House. So certainly there is a concern amongst the
Speaker 2: government and all areas of US government about TikTok and
Speaker 2: the risks that they see given its association potentially to
Speaker 2: the Chinese state. Yeah, and Washington saying, you know what,
Speaker 2: shed that Chinese ownership or get out, right? I want
Speaker 2: to pick up on the point of national security, Olivia.
Speaker 2: What has been China's response to Washington's allegations and just
Speaker 2: how Chinese is TikTok?
Speaker 2: That is the big question, but there's also like what
Speaker 2: Benji mentioned, right? There is the argument and then there's
Speaker 2: perception as well, and then what do the US lawmakers
Speaker 2: or the Supreme Court buy?
Speaker 2: If you look at TikTok Inc which offers the TikTok app,
Speaker 2: it is incorporated in California and Delaware. It has its
Speaker 2: headquarters in Singapore and Los Angeles, and that's the argument
Speaker 2: that TikTok has tried to use to prove its independence
Speaker 2: from the Chinese government. It says that it is subject
Speaker 2: to American laws and not Chinese ones, but perhaps the
Speaker 2: bigger question here is with TikTok's parent company ByteDance, is
Speaker 2: it Chinese? To give you some background, ByteDance was founded.
Speaker 2: By Chinese entrepreneurs Jiang Yiming and Liang Bo Bo, who
Speaker 2: went to Nankai University in China's North Tianjin. 43-year-old Zhang Yimming,
Speaker 2: who hails from Fujian province in the south, has also
Speaker 2: been named China's richest person in 2024 with a net
Speaker 2: worth estimated at $49.3 billion. Now he stepped down from
Speaker 2: his role as ByteDance CEO in 2021 and under that lens,
Speaker 2: it would seem ByteDance is a Chinese company.
Speaker 2: So if you were to look at the TikTok website,
Speaker 2: it has been trying to distance itself from this. In
Speaker 2: a section it has where it tries to debunk what
Speaker 2: it says are myths about TikTok. It says one of
Speaker 2: these myths is that ByteDance is Chinese owned. It claims
Speaker 2: that about 60% of the company is owned by global
Speaker 2: institutional investors and that co-founder Zhang Yiming holds a 20%
Speaker 2: stake in the company and they say he is a
Speaker 2: private
Speaker 2: individual and not part of any state or government entity.
Speaker 2: ByteDance is based in Beijing, it is incorporated in the
Speaker 2: Cayman Islands. It also claims it does not have a
Speaker 2: single global headquarters and that's where it gets tricky, right?
Speaker 2: The US authorities say Chinese companies are required to do
Speaker 2: whatever the Chinese government wants in terms of sharing information,
Speaker 2: US members of Congress complain about the Chinese government having
Speaker 2: a golden share.
Speaker 2: In ByteDance, but TikTok has refuted this. Under Chinese law,
Speaker 2: it says that because of media licensing requirements and entity
Speaker 2: affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1% of a ByteDance subsidiary,
Speaker 2: but it says that this arrangement is only for specific
Speaker 2: services in the Chinese market and it has no bearing
Speaker 2: on its global operations outside of China, including for TikTok.
Speaker 2: The question though is whether this argument
Speaker 2: Will be something that the US buys into.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say TikTok. Do you recognize that voice? Yes,
Speaker 2: that's US President-elect Donald Trump, saying back in June that
Speaker 2: he would save TikTok. Just before the new year, Mr.
Speaker 2: Trump filed a request with the Supreme Court to delay
Speaker 2: the ban. He says he needs some time to find
Speaker 2: a negotiated resolution and keep in mind Benji, you mentioned this. Mr.
Speaker 2: Trump was the leader who first put a ban on
Speaker 2: the table back in 2020.
Speaker 2: So my question to you is, why is he now
Speaker 2: so keen to keep it around? Yeah, he's gone through
Speaker 2: quite a transformation here, and I, I've just come back
Speaker 2: off the end of covering the 2024 presidential campaign, which
Speaker 2: Donald Trump won, of course, and I saw a lot
Speaker 2: of him and what I've realized is he is, he's
Speaker 2: an unpredictable man. It can be complicated to work out
Speaker 2: where he sits on a certain issue. For me though,
Speaker 2: I think on TikTok it's, it's actually pretty clear cut.
Speaker 2: Because the app served him really well during the election,
Speaker 2: you know, getting the sort of bro vote as it's known,
Speaker 2: young men especially to engage in his campaign. There's a
Speaker 2: bit of overlap between the campaign and the tech world.
Speaker 2: One of his billionaire mega donors, someone called Jeff Yass,
Speaker 2: he has an investment firm which owns a chunk of
Speaker 2: TikTok's parent company. We also saw the president-elect recently meet.
Speaker 2: The Singaporean CEO of TikTok, and Trump has since argued
Speaker 2: that the, the timing of this law that we're exploring
Speaker 2: where TikTok has to be sold, you know, by ByteDance
Speaker 2: or face a ban, he says that that law interferes
Speaker 2: with his own ability to manage the United States' foreign
Speaker 2: policy and national security, not to mention First Amendment rights.
Speaker 2: I think overall though, this is my theory, which is,
Speaker 2: Donald Trump just likes being popular, right? He, he boasts
Speaker 2: all the time about his biggest crowds, his winning the
Speaker 2: popular vote, best this, biggest that, being a star on
Speaker 2: the app, he says that he has a warm spot
Speaker 2: in his heart for TikTok, and I think that the
Speaker 2: bottom line is just like he just enjoys the positive
Speaker 2: attention that TikTok has granted him. He has the unfettered ability.
Speaker 2: To spread his message to 1415 million followers. So from
Speaker 2: Trump's perspective, you know, never mind those pesky national security concerns, which, yeah,
Speaker 2: he raised in the past, but those don't matter now.
Speaker 2: TikTok is good for me. I like TikTok, let's keep TikTok. And,
Speaker 2: and now that he's president again or or soon to
Speaker 2: be president again.
Speaker 2: He could try and prevent that ban for that reason, right,
Speaker 2: casting himself as the platform savior, and I think really
Speaker 2: that that that's it, that's the reality. Yeah, and influencers
Speaker 2: would love him for that, right? OK, so Mr. Trump's appeal,
Speaker 2: could it work, you know, how likely is the Supreme
Speaker 2: Court to overturn or pause the ban?
Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question, and we're gonna find
Speaker 2: out quite soon because the Supreme Court is holding its
Speaker 2: hearing on TikTok on January 10th, and if, if it
Speaker 2: decides to take up the case, first of all, President
Speaker 2: Biden would have to issue an extension on that deadline
Speaker 2: for ByteDance to sell TikTok. Otherwise that expires on the 19th.
Speaker 2: That's the day before Trump's inauguration.
Speaker 2: If you're asking to sort of predict what the Supreme
Speaker 2: Court is gonna do, I think that's less actually to
Speaker 2: do with the cases in which you're stronger on either side.
Speaker 2: It's more to do with where the justices lie politically
Speaker 2: and ideologically. This is a conservative leaning court.
Speaker 2: Who might agree with TikTok's argument about the constitutional right
Speaker 2: to free speech, the First Amendment. It is also though
Speaker 2: a Trump leaning court. It has ruled in the president
Speaker 2: elect's favor on a number of matters of late, for instance,
Speaker 2: granting him presidential immunity.
Speaker 2: TikTok could also go in front of the court, right,
Speaker 2: and it could argue that it is practically impossible to
Speaker 2: ban this app. You know, there was a bill that
Speaker 2: went through Congress and it suggested that the way that
Speaker 2: they would do this is they would penalize app stores
Speaker 2: or internet providers for hosting versions of the app. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: the US government is, you know, big and important, but
Speaker 2: good luck imposing that sort of rule on on Apple
Speaker 2: or or Google, and there'd be huge uproar amongst the
Speaker 2: public as well, not that that stopped the Supreme Court, so.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I actually don't know which way this
Speaker 2: is going to go. We don't even know if the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court are going to take it up or when
Speaker 2: they'd have this decision. And then of course Trump's in
Speaker 2: the White House and he may decide to intervene as well.
Speaker 2: So it's going to be a really interesting couple of
Speaker 2: weeks ahead, I think for TikTok. Definitely, yeah, I want
Speaker 2: to pick up on that thought in a moment, but Olivia,
Speaker 2: you know, since the law was passed last year.
Speaker 2: TikTok said the ban violates First Amendment protections. It's unconstitutional
Speaker 2: and the Chinese government has called Washington to respect the
Speaker 2: market economy, respect fair competition. How much more reactive could
Speaker 2: Beijing get over this?
Speaker 2: Oh, with the latest developments, we have seen Chinese media
Speaker 2: like the China Daily say that the potential reprieve is
Speaker 2: a positive development, but other than that, the Chinese response
Speaker 2: has been relatively measured or muted for that fact. If
Speaker 2: you would just think back to March last year, in
Speaker 2: the lead up to and just after the US House
Speaker 2: of Representatives passed the sell or ban bill paving the
Speaker 2: way for it to be.
Speaker 2: Eventually signed into law. In April, China's Foreign Ministry famously
Speaker 2: called it quote sheer robbers' logic in which it accused
Speaker 2: the US of trying to snatch from others all the
Speaker 2: good things that they have, calling it an abuse of
Speaker 2: national security to bring down competitive companies of other countries,
Speaker 2: saying that there is no fairness or justice. But since
Speaker 2: Then there's been a shift in the Chinese government's intensity
Speaker 2: of response and we've seen that as this ban of
Speaker 2: TikTok has become more of a reality. Reports suggest that,
Speaker 2: you know, after proceedings got going, TikTok chose to take
Speaker 2: the case to the courts and to let its team
Speaker 2: in the US, which famously is led by its Singaporean
Speaker 2: CEO Sho Chuu, he had famously highlighted.
Speaker 2: his nationality, TikTok choosing to let that team handle the
Speaker 2: political lobbying and the legal battle. Questions about ongoing developments
Speaker 2: relating to the ban in Beijing have been met with
Speaker 2: answers from Chinese spokespersons just deferring back to their past statements.
Speaker 2: And again, it would seem that the Chinese government is
Speaker 2: trying to show relative restraint now, trying to distance itself
Speaker 2: or perhaps keep its
Speaker 2: He quite close to its chest, as Benji mentioned, there's
Speaker 2: still a lot of uncertainty with what's going to happen,
Speaker 2: but analysts have also said that, you know, this shouldn't
Speaker 2: be taken as an indication that China is going to
Speaker 2: back off or take this lying down. So my question is,
Speaker 2: do you even think China would allow the sale of
Speaker 2: TikTok if it meant staying in America? That seems like
Speaker 2: a really big ask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we haven't really heard directly, you know, from China
Speaker 2: on what it would do, perhaps because of all these uncertainties,
Speaker 2: but there have been statements to show that China is
Speaker 2: not going to let up on this and it is
Speaker 2: quite unlikely to let a sale go through. In March 2023,
Speaker 2: China's Commerce Ministry then outrightly said that it is firmly
Speaker 2: opposed to a forced sale of TikTok and the tricky
Speaker 2: part here is with TikTok's algorithm, the ministry.
Speaker 2: said that the sale or divestiture of TikTok is subject
Speaker 2: to Chinese laws because it involves technology export and therefore,
Speaker 2: it is subject to administrative licensing procedures. It also said
Speaker 2: the Chinese government will make a decision in accordance with
Speaker 2: the law. Don't forget that this has been like we've
Speaker 2: been talking about a long standing issue dating back to Mr.
Speaker 2: Trump's first term in office where he pushed for a
Speaker 2: ban on the app in 2020.
Speaker 2: amid an escalating China-US tech war, China actually moved to
Speaker 2: revise its catalog of technologies that are subject to export
Speaker 2: bans or restrictions, all pointing to targeting TikTok's price data
Speaker 2: mining algorithm that pushes that content to people that has
Speaker 2: made it so successful and what all this means is
Speaker 2: ByteDance may not be able to make a decision of
Speaker 2: a sale on its own.
Speaker 2: And that may also be where the conundrum lies for TikTok,
Speaker 2: even as it tries to make the argument in case
Speaker 2: that it does not have ties with the Chinese government.
Speaker 2: There are few possible scenarios here, right? We talked about
Speaker 2: letting the sale go through, which would be most unlikely
Speaker 2: to have.
Speaker 2: as it would make China look weak, especially as it
Speaker 2: has framed this as an abuse of national security concerns
Speaker 2: by the US. Don't forget that observers are also pointing
Speaker 2: out that China is very mindful of this domestic audience
Speaker 2: and how it's perceived as well.
Speaker 2: Another option some say is for ByteDance to sell its
Speaker 2: US business without including the platform's algorithm, but the Chinese
Speaker 2: Commerce Ministry did not respond directly to a question on whether,
Speaker 2: you know, this could be a possibility, and this was
Speaker 2: just last month. Observers including uh Carnegie China say.
Speaker 2: What's most likely to happen then is that China could
Speaker 2: block the sale and that would have greater repercussions for
Speaker 2: China-US ties and could escalate tensions. This would be at
Speaker 2: the expense of ByteDance's business if it's left unable to
Speaker 2: operate in the US, which is a key market, and
Speaker 2: it will be a huge loss for.
Speaker 2: Talk in terms of revenue as well. But experts asking
Speaker 2: that this could possibly let China gain political leverage amid
Speaker 2: this China-US rivalry. OK, then before we go, Benji, let's
Speaker 2: fast forward a few days, you know, so say the
Speaker 2: law is upheld. January 19th comes around, TikTok is banned,
Speaker 2: but then the day after on January 20th, Donald Trump
Speaker 2: is inaugurated as president. Could he still intervene at that
Speaker 2: point and maybe save it?
Speaker 2: So actually, yes, he could try and there's a couple
Speaker 2: of things he could do, but they all have problems. If,
Speaker 2: if we go one by one, firstly, he could ask
Speaker 2: Congress to repeal the legislation. So Congress is the, the
Speaker 2: body that passed this bill. He could go back to
Speaker 2: them and say, reverse it. It's possible. I mean, he
Speaker 2: holds both chambers of Congress narrowly, but there would be
Speaker 2: a big backlash, I think, amongst some of the Sino
Speaker 2: skeptic representatives on Capitol Hill, as well as arguably some
Speaker 2: American social media companies.
Speaker 2: OK, so that's option one. Option two would be to
Speaker 2: take executive action. So don't go back to Congress, just
Speaker 2: go down and ask his Justice Department to effectively abstain
Speaker 2: from enforcing the law. The issue with that is that
Speaker 2: the law still remains in effect. And so if you're
Speaker 2: a company like Apple, even if Donald Trump said don't
Speaker 2: worry about it, you're still in violation of it. So
Speaker 2: if you're, if you're the general counsel of Apple, are
Speaker 2: you really going to just bank on Trump.
Speaker 2: Truth social post that, yeah, I'm not going to enforce
Speaker 2: the law anymore. You're probably not because of the fact
Speaker 2: that Trump has form of changing his mind, especially on
Speaker 2: this topic of TikTok. Alternatively, there is this option where
Speaker 2: he could try to push through that sale from ByteDance,
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump would love that. He brands himself as Mr.
Speaker 2: Deal Breaker, Art of the deal. That is Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: Even if there are potentially buyers in the US, China
Speaker 2: really reluctant to comply on that front. So.
Speaker 2: The options are there, but they have their challenges. And
Speaker 2: I think that the, the worry, even though there are opportunities,
Speaker 2: the worry for the Trump administration is that this is
Speaker 2: more than just an app where people do funny dances, right?
Speaker 2: The stakes are really high here because whichever way this goes,
Speaker 2: and there are multiple outcomes and implications, this is clearly
Speaker 2: going to have consequences for US-China ties. That bilateral relationship
Speaker 2: between the global superpowers is going to be tested if
Speaker 2: a ban is put in place. Beijing could
Speaker 2: Ma, you know, choose to respond, then this could spill
Speaker 2: over more widely as part of this tit for tat
Speaker 2: trade war that is going on between China and the
Speaker 2: United States. I wouldn't say anything is set in stone.
Speaker 2: I would say it's massively moving in terms of the parts,
Speaker 2: and we might not know until, you know.
Speaker 2: Trump, frankly, has had his last say on this. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and all the while, some 170 million users in America
Speaker 2: counting down the days as they watch things unfold. Things
Speaker 2: really unclear, but you guys, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: shedding some light on what could happen in the days ahead.
Speaker 2: Benji and Olivia really appreciate this. Thank you. Thanks.
Speaker 2: You can find all the reports from our correspondents on
Speaker 2: YouTube and on CNA. Asia, and don't forget there are
Speaker 2: TV episodes of CNA Correspondent every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Singapore,
Speaker 2: Hong Kong time. I'm Teresa Tang. The team behind this
Speaker 2: week's episode is Sai Yain, Clara Ong, Christina Robert, and
Speaker 2: Craig Dale. Join us again for more next week. Take care.