1 00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:11,659 --> 00:00:14,810 Speaker 1: You see how I do my makeup for work? Very demure, 3 00:00:15,090 --> 00:00:17,729 Speaker 1: very mindful. I don't come to work with a green 4 00:00:17,729 --> 00:00:18,559 Speaker 1: cut crease. 5 00:00:18,729 --> 00:00:21,530 Speaker 2: It's just this massive lion, and to have him charge 6 00:00:21,530 --> 00:00:23,020 Speaker 2: me on foot, it was. 7 00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:27,940 Speaker 2: Pretty terrifying. I'm opening it now. I can't look. Please 8 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:31,899 Speaker 2: be the green one. Please be the green one. That's 9 00:00:31,899 --> 00:00:37,500 Speaker 2: just a taste of TikTok, viral trends, dramatic personal stories, unboxings. 10 00:00:37,580 --> 00:00:42,209 Speaker 2: It's entertaining and addictive. Some call it a vibrant online forum, 11 00:00:42,459 --> 00:00:46,138 Speaker 2: others call it a digital drug. Whatever the case, TikTok's 12 00:00:46,139 --> 00:00:48,380 Speaker 2: time in America may be running out. 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:49,659 Speaker 1: This is why 14 00:00:49,659 --> 00:00:52,310 Speaker 1: the government is arguing that the protecting Americans from Foreign 15 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:57,540 Speaker 1: adversary Controlled Applications Act is entirely consistent with the First Amendment, 16 00:00:57,709 --> 00:01:00,549 Speaker 1: and Congress has every right to pass a law forcing 17 00:01:00,549 --> 00:01:03,709 Speaker 1: a sale or ban of T TickTok because the government 18 00:01:03,709 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: says the platform is a puppet of China. 19 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:08,339 Speaker 2: Is the Chinese government really? 20 00:01:08,595 --> 00:01:12,044 Speaker 2: Controlling the platform and harvesting the data the app collects. 21 00:01:12,205 --> 00:01:17,044 Speaker 2: Parent company ByteDance denies that. Meantime, incoming US President Donald 22 00:01:17,044 --> 00:01:21,235 Speaker 2: Trump has gone from backing a TikTok ban to backing off, 23 00:01:21,404 --> 00:01:25,164 Speaker 2: asking the Supreme Court to press pause on restrictions so 24 00:01:25,165 --> 00:01:28,245 Speaker 2: his new administration can pursue a political resolution. 25 00:01:28,660 --> 00:01:31,289 Speaker 2: So lots of ground to cover. Let's bring in Washington 26 00:01:31,290 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: correspondent Benji Hier and Beijing correspondent Olivia Xiong. Happy New Year, guys. 27 00:01:36,769 --> 00:01:40,529 Speaker 2: Happy New Year. Theresa. You know, I remember when TikTok 28 00:01:40,529 --> 00:01:42,970 Speaker 2: was just emerging and people were trying it out for 29 00:01:42,970 --> 00:01:46,529 Speaker 2: the first time and I had friends tell me this algorithm, 30 00:01:46,569 --> 00:01:48,970 Speaker 2: it hits different, you know, this platform, it knows what 31 00:01:48,970 --> 00:01:51,650 Speaker 2: I want to watch before I even know I want 32 00:01:51,650 --> 00:01:52,250 Speaker 2: to watch it. 33 00:01:52,849 --> 00:01:58,089 Speaker 2: Benji, TikTok has 1 billion active monthly users, but 170 34 00:01:58,089 --> 00:02:01,569 Speaker 2: million of them are in America. Just how big is 35 00:02:01,569 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: the app in the US? 36 00:02:03,330 --> 00:02:05,790 Speaker 2: Well, I'm one of those users and like you, I feel, 37 00:02:05,889 --> 00:02:08,009 Speaker 2: I feel like the algorithm knows me better than I 38 00:02:08,008 --> 00:02:10,448 Speaker 2: know myself. And and the reason, I guess like any 39 00:02:10,449 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: social media application is that the more that we use it, 40 00:02:13,169 --> 00:02:16,250 Speaker 2: the more we scroll and scroll, the more the algorithm 41 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:18,770 Speaker 2: learns about us, can, can give us content that we 42 00:02:18,770 --> 00:02:21,490 Speaker 2: think we're after. And that's an experience not only that 43 00:02:21,490 --> 00:02:24,330 Speaker 2: I have, but as you say, millions across the United States. 44 00:02:24,410 --> 00:02:27,369 Speaker 2: Just some stats on that. American adults spend an average 45 00:02:27,369 --> 00:02:29,130 Speaker 2: of almost 1 hour per day. 46 00:02:29,225 --> 00:02:32,175 Speaker 2: On TikTok, and that of course means that TikTok is 47 00:02:32,175 --> 00:02:35,654 Speaker 2: able to reach revenue in the many, many billions in 48 00:02:35,654 --> 00:02:38,895 Speaker 2: the US, 16 billion in 2023. Obviously we have to 49 00:02:38,895 --> 00:02:43,255 Speaker 2: wait for 2024 figures. And the thing about TikTok that 50 00:02:43,255 --> 00:02:47,323 Speaker 2: makes it so interesting for not just users but also 51 00:02:47,324 --> 00:02:49,413 Speaker 2: creators on it is that there is an opportunity for 52 00:02:49,413 --> 00:02:52,085 Speaker 2: them to make money too, right? So if you are 53 00:02:52,335 --> 00:02:55,184 Speaker 2: creating output as an influencer, you can earn. 54 00:02:55,699 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: Tiny amounts per 1000 views, but if you're getting millions 55 00:02:59,679 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: of views, that adds up. The last thing I'd just 56 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,149 Speaker 2: say in terms of TikTok's influence, obviously there's the money, 57 00:03:05,258 --> 00:03:08,770 Speaker 2: obviously there's the influences. There is the political element as well, 58 00:03:08,839 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: and we are gonna talk about Donald Trump, but you know, 59 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 2: his presence on TikTok, both directly and indirectly, him posting 60 00:03:15,839 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: from his account or right wing influences putting up the 61 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,869 Speaker 2: sort of content that that can draw in a key audience. 62 00:03:22,449 --> 00:03:25,449 Speaker 2: That obviously was huge during the US election campaign here. 63 00:03:25,529 --> 00:03:27,770 Speaker 2: So the app is big on a number of fronts. 64 00:03:27,929 --> 00:03:31,210 Speaker 2: It would be really big, therefore, if it's banned. But hey, 65 00:03:31,250 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: it's happened before. It's happened in other places like India, 66 00:03:33,929 --> 00:03:36,610 Speaker 2: and it could, it could well happen in the US 67 00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:38,509 Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, we're going to dive deeper into that. 68 00:03:38,570 --> 00:03:42,479 Speaker 2: But first, Olivia, TikTok, not available in China, but there 69 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:45,789 Speaker 2: is an equivalent called Douyin. Did I pronounce that correctly? 70 00:03:47,210 --> 00:03:51,089 Speaker 2: Doing Doyin, OK. ByteDance owns both of these apps. How 71 00:03:51,089 --> 00:03:51,850 Speaker 2: similar are they? 72 00:03:52,419 --> 00:03:55,929 Speaker 2: Well, we, we sometimes hear people refer to TikTok as 73 00:03:55,929 --> 00:03:59,699 Speaker 2: the international version of Douyin, which actually translates to a 74 00:03:59,699 --> 00:04:04,020 Speaker 2: shaking sound or Douyin as the Chinese version of TikTok, 75 00:04:04,059 --> 00:04:07,300 Speaker 2: that's quite understandable. They are very similar, both, you know, 76 00:04:07,380 --> 00:04:12,809 Speaker 2: originated as short video sharing platforms, they have very similar interfaces, 77 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:16,269 Speaker 2: but instead of being the same product, I would actually 78 00:04:16,269 --> 00:04:17,149 Speaker 2: say they are more like 79 00:04:17,209 --> 00:04:20,269 Speaker 2: siblings, you know, with the same parent company, but they 80 00:04:20,269 --> 00:04:24,849 Speaker 2: have their own very distinct personalities and beings for that matter, 81 00:04:25,029 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: and I must admit, in the name of very good 82 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: rigorous research, I have spent quite a bit of time 83 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,750 Speaker 2: on these two apps more than usual, but I've had 84 00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:36,428 Speaker 2: to use two different devices because one of the biggest 85 00:04:36,428 --> 00:04:40,790 Speaker 2: differences is its availability. So Douyin can only be downloaded 86 00:04:40,790 --> 00:04:42,070 Speaker 2: when you're on the. 87 00:04:42,238 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: Chinese app store, so I have to use my China 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,609 Speaker 2: mobile phone for that. Uh, while TikTok is only available 89 00:04:47,609 --> 00:04:51,079 Speaker 2: in uh app stores outside of China, in fact, has 90 00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: never been made available on uh Mainland China. Audience wise 91 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,579 Speaker 2: as well, TikTok has more than 1 billion monthly active 92 00:04:59,579 --> 00:05:04,950 Speaker 2: users in 150 countries apart from China. Douyin has less, 93 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,070 Speaker 2: over 700 million users. 94 00:05:07,220 --> 00:05:10,488 Speaker 2: But all in China and it's the 2nd most popular 95 00:05:10,488 --> 00:05:14,649 Speaker 2: social media platform in China after WeChat, but it is 96 00:05:14,649 --> 00:05:18,079 Speaker 2: the most popular out of the video streaming apps in China. 97 00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:22,970 Speaker 2: Arguably Douyin has seen greater success with e-commerce, bringing it 98 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:26,369 Speaker 2: huge amounts of revenue. There's also this other fun, you know, 99 00:05:26,570 --> 00:05:30,769 Speaker 2: little difference between Douyin and TikTok. The filter, actually if 100 00:05:30,769 --> 00:05:32,130 Speaker 2: you try to take a selfie of yourself. 101 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,179 Speaker 2: is different. You should give it a go and see 102 00:05:35,178 --> 00:05:38,579 Speaker 2: how you look. But content-wise, they are two separate apps. 103 00:05:38,779 --> 00:05:42,099 Speaker 2: What you upload on one platform can't be automatically found 104 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:46,140 Speaker 2: on the other. So it's perhaps what's happening behind the 105 00:05:46,140 --> 00:05:49,230 Speaker 2: scenes that has caused a bit more skepticism even though 106 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:53,130 Speaker 2: for users, these are two different apps. Let's get into 107 00:05:53,130 --> 00:05:57,190 Speaker 2: the politics now. Benji, the argument from the Biden administration. 108 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 2: is that the app poses a serious national security threat 109 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,729 Speaker 2: that China's Communist Party can use it for its political ends. 110 00:06:04,928 --> 00:06:08,368 Speaker 2: What exactly is Washington afraid of? It's actually a really 111 00:06:08,369 --> 00:06:10,809 Speaker 2: difficult question to answer and the reason it's difficult to 112 00:06:10,809 --> 00:06:14,010 Speaker 2: answer is because from the US government's perspective, their argument, 113 00:06:14,089 --> 00:06:16,769 Speaker 2: as you say, is about data and national security and 114 00:06:16,769 --> 00:06:19,529 Speaker 2: therefore it's kind of tough to get down to the 115 00:06:19,529 --> 00:06:21,969 Speaker 2: details of what they're worried about because so much of 116 00:06:21,970 --> 00:06:23,250 Speaker 2: it is is redacted. 117 00:06:23,709 --> 00:06:25,349 Speaker 2: When they try and put their case forward and when 118 00:06:25,350 --> 00:06:27,589 Speaker 2: the White House presented their case and that case was 119 00:06:27,589 --> 00:06:30,670 Speaker 2: upheld by a court here in the US, it was 120 00:06:30,670 --> 00:06:33,750 Speaker 2: really thin on the ground on those specifics because, well, 121 00:06:33,829 --> 00:06:37,950 Speaker 2: naturally the government is wary about publicizing sensitive information, but 122 00:06:37,950 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: of course, how do you prove your case without actually 123 00:06:41,109 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: showing something. But here's kind of the overall idea that 124 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,589 Speaker 2: the Biden administration is putting forward, which is that TikTok collects. 125 00:06:48,187 --> 00:06:51,546 Speaker 2: data on Americans, which, OK, it happens with other social 126 00:06:51,546 --> 00:06:55,416 Speaker 2: media websites, Facebook or Instagram for example. But what's different 127 00:06:55,416 --> 00:06:59,786 Speaker 2: with TikTok is that the US government alleges that uh 128 00:06:59,786 --> 00:07:04,536 Speaker 2: that information can be used by China to influence politics 129 00:07:04,536 --> 00:07:07,346 Speaker 2: here in America, even to spy on people or inject 130 00:07:07,346 --> 00:07:11,707 Speaker 2: malicious software into people's devices or phones. Back in 20. 131 00:07:11,843 --> 00:07:15,493 Speaker 2: 22, Christopher Wray, he's the outgoing director of the FBI. 132 00:07:15,783 --> 00:07:19,023 Speaker 2: He told Congress that, and I'm quoting here, the Chinese 133 00:07:19,023 --> 00:07:22,864 Speaker 2: government could control the algorithm, he says, which could use 134 00:07:22,864 --> 00:07:27,384 Speaker 2: to be influencing operations and that China angle, of course, 135 00:07:27,503 --> 00:07:30,824 Speaker 2: coming from the fact that TikTok's owner, Byte Dan is 136 00:07:30,824 --> 00:07:33,864 Speaker 2: based in Beijing. Now, look, it's important to stress that 137 00:07:33,864 --> 00:07:35,824 Speaker 2: China denies these sorts of theories. 138 00:07:36,460 --> 00:07:39,501 Speaker 2: And much of the risk is is theoretical. But if 139 00:07:39,501 --> 00:07:41,901 Speaker 2: you look at the rhetoric that has come from many 140 00:07:41,901 --> 00:07:45,300 Speaker 2: lawmakers in the US, they point to specific examples, one 141 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:49,460 Speaker 2: of which is an incident back in 2022, in which 142 00:07:49,460 --> 00:07:53,300 Speaker 2: ByteDance admitted that some of its employees did access the 143 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:56,571 Speaker 2: data of journalists in the West to try to check 144 00:07:56,571 --> 00:08:00,780 Speaker 2: their locations, see if they were meeting TikTok employees suspected 145 00:08:00,781 --> 00:08:02,890 Speaker 2: of leaking information to the media. 146 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,130 Speaker 2: And the last thing on this is that yes, this 147 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:08,250 Speaker 2: app is hugely popular. We were just talking about how 148 00:08:08,250 --> 00:08:10,529 Speaker 2: many users they are, but there is a notion in 149 00:08:10,529 --> 00:08:14,570 Speaker 2: the political world here in Washington that TikTok is a danger. 150 00:08:14,730 --> 00:08:18,209 Speaker 2: That is the political consensus. It is already banned on 151 00:08:18,209 --> 00:08:20,500 Speaker 2: government devices and even Donald Trump. 152 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,959 Speaker 2: endorsed a national ban when he was first in the 153 00:08:23,959 --> 00:08:27,519 Speaker 2: White House. So certainly there is a concern amongst the 154 00:08:27,519 --> 00:08:31,239 Speaker 2: government and all areas of US government about TikTok and 155 00:08:31,239 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 2: the risks that they see given its association potentially to 156 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,239 Speaker 2: the Chinese state. Yeah, and Washington saying, you know what, 157 00:08:37,479 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: shed that Chinese ownership or get out, right? I want 158 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,109 Speaker 2: to pick up on the point of national security, Olivia. 159 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: What has been China's response to Washington's allegations and just 160 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: how Chinese is TikTok? 161 00:08:49,989 --> 00:08:52,359 Speaker 2: That is the big question, but there's also like what 162 00:08:52,359 --> 00:08:55,950 Speaker 2: Benji mentioned, right? There is the argument and then there's 163 00:08:55,950 --> 00:08:59,189 Speaker 2: perception as well, and then what do the US lawmakers 164 00:08:59,190 --> 00:09:00,789 Speaker 2: or the Supreme Court buy? 165 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:04,689 Speaker 2: If you look at TikTok Inc which offers the TikTok app, 166 00:09:04,859 --> 00:09:08,619 Speaker 2: it is incorporated in California and Delaware. It has its 167 00:09:08,619 --> 00:09:12,890 Speaker 2: headquarters in Singapore and Los Angeles, and that's the argument 168 00:09:12,890 --> 00:09:15,459 Speaker 2: that TikTok has tried to use to prove its independence 169 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:17,819 Speaker 2: from the Chinese government. It says that it is subject 170 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:21,179 Speaker 2: to American laws and not Chinese ones, but perhaps the 171 00:09:21,179 --> 00:09:25,579 Speaker 2: bigger question here is with TikTok's parent company ByteDance, is 172 00:09:25,580 --> 00:09:29,348 Speaker 2: it Chinese? To give you some background, ByteDance was founded. 173 00:09:29,408 --> 00:09:33,317 Speaker 2: By Chinese entrepreneurs Jiang Yiming and Liang Bo Bo, who 174 00:09:33,317 --> 00:09:38,838 Speaker 2: went to Nankai University in China's North Tianjin. 43-year-old Zhang Yimming, 175 00:09:38,877 --> 00:09:41,918 Speaker 2: who hails from Fujian province in the south, has also 176 00:09:41,918 --> 00:09:46,317 Speaker 2: been named China's richest person in 2024 with a net 177 00:09:46,317 --> 00:09:50,947 Speaker 2: worth estimated at $49.3 billion. Now he stepped down from 178 00:09:50,947 --> 00:09:54,697 Speaker 2: his role as ByteDance CEO in 2021 and under that lens, 179 00:09:54,718 --> 00:09:57,227 Speaker 2: it would seem ByteDance is a Chinese company. 180 00:09:57,785 --> 00:10:00,204 Speaker 2: So if you were to look at the TikTok website, 181 00:10:00,255 --> 00:10:03,135 Speaker 2: it has been trying to distance itself from this. In 182 00:10:03,135 --> 00:10:06,856 Speaker 2: a section it has where it tries to debunk what 183 00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:10,135 Speaker 2: it says are myths about TikTok. It says one of 184 00:10:10,135 --> 00:10:14,056 Speaker 2: these myths is that ByteDance is Chinese owned. It claims 185 00:10:14,056 --> 00:10:17,966 Speaker 2: that about 60% of the company is owned by global 186 00:10:17,966 --> 00:10:22,765 Speaker 2: institutional investors and that co-founder Zhang Yiming holds a 20% 187 00:10:22,765 --> 00:10:25,856 Speaker 2: stake in the company and they say he is a 188 00:10:25,856 --> 00:10:26,116 Speaker 2: private 189 00:10:26,463 --> 00:10:30,393 Speaker 2: individual and not part of any state or government entity. 190 00:10:30,513 --> 00:10:34,114 Speaker 2: ByteDance is based in Beijing, it is incorporated in the 191 00:10:34,114 --> 00:10:37,073 Speaker 2: Cayman Islands. It also claims it does not have a 192 00:10:37,073 --> 00:10:40,823 Speaker 2: single global headquarters and that's where it gets tricky, right? 193 00:10:41,033 --> 00:10:45,213 Speaker 2: The US authorities say Chinese companies are required to do 194 00:10:45,213 --> 00:10:49,174 Speaker 2: whatever the Chinese government wants in terms of sharing information, 195 00:10:49,473 --> 00:10:52,624 Speaker 2: US members of Congress complain about the Chinese government having 196 00:10:52,624 --> 00:10:54,434 Speaker 2: a golden share. 197 00:10:54,541 --> 00:10:59,452 Speaker 2: In ByteDance, but TikTok has refuted this. Under Chinese law, 198 00:10:59,552 --> 00:11:03,692 Speaker 2: it says that because of media licensing requirements and entity 199 00:11:03,692 --> 00:11:08,881 Speaker 2: affiliated with the Chinese government owns 1% of a ByteDance subsidiary, 200 00:11:09,211 --> 00:11:12,011 Speaker 2: but it says that this arrangement is only for specific 201 00:11:12,011 --> 00:11:16,252 Speaker 2: services in the Chinese market and it has no bearing 202 00:11:16,252 --> 00:11:20,071 Speaker 2: on its global operations outside of China, including for TikTok. 203 00:11:20,331 --> 00:11:22,881 Speaker 2: The question though is whether this argument 204 00:11:23,289 --> 00:11:25,489 Speaker 2: Will be something that the US buys into. 205 00:11:26,989 --> 00:11:31,339 Speaker 2: I'm gonna say TikTok. Do you recognize that voice? Yes, 206 00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:35,539 Speaker 2: that's US President-elect Donald Trump, saying back in June that 207 00:11:35,539 --> 00:11:38,390 Speaker 2: he would save TikTok. Just before the new year, Mr. 208 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,380 Speaker 2: Trump filed a request with the Supreme Court to delay 209 00:11:41,380 --> 00:11:44,409 Speaker 2: the ban. He says he needs some time to find 210 00:11:44,409 --> 00:11:49,030 Speaker 2: a negotiated resolution and keep in mind Benji, you mentioned this. Mr. 211 00:11:49,099 --> 00:11:51,390 Speaker 2: Trump was the leader who first put a ban on 212 00:11:51,390 --> 00:11:52,780 Speaker 2: the table back in 2020. 213 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,189 Speaker 2: So my question to you is, why is he now 214 00:11:56,190 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: so keen to keep it around? Yeah, he's gone through 215 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 2: quite a transformation here, and I, I've just come back 216 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,039 Speaker 2: off the end of covering the 2024 presidential campaign, which 217 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:07,190 Speaker 2: Donald Trump won, of course, and I saw a lot 218 00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:09,330 Speaker 2: of him and what I've realized is he is, he's 219 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: an unpredictable man. It can be complicated to work out 220 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: where he sits on a certain issue. For me though, 221 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,210 Speaker 2: I think on TikTok it's, it's actually pretty clear cut. 222 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:20,739 Speaker 2: Because the app served him really well during the election, 223 00:12:20,770 --> 00:12:23,468 Speaker 2: you know, getting the sort of bro vote as it's known, 224 00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:26,750 Speaker 2: young men especially to engage in his campaign. There's a 225 00:12:26,750 --> 00:12:30,390 Speaker 2: bit of overlap between the campaign and the tech world. 226 00:12:30,429 --> 00:12:34,069 Speaker 2: One of his billionaire mega donors, someone called Jeff Yass, 227 00:12:34,109 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: he has an investment firm which owns a chunk of 228 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,950 Speaker 2: TikTok's parent company. We also saw the president-elect recently meet. 229 00:12:42,054 --> 00:12:46,364 Speaker 2: The Singaporean CEO of TikTok, and Trump has since argued 230 00:12:46,364 --> 00:12:49,515 Speaker 2: that the, the timing of this law that we're exploring 231 00:12:49,515 --> 00:12:52,564 Speaker 2: where TikTok has to be sold, you know, by ByteDance 232 00:12:52,565 --> 00:12:56,125 Speaker 2: or face a ban, he says that that law interferes 233 00:12:56,125 --> 00:12:59,885 Speaker 2: with his own ability to manage the United States' foreign 234 00:12:59,885 --> 00:13:03,655 Speaker 2: policy and national security, not to mention First Amendment rights. 235 00:13:04,044 --> 00:13:06,465 Speaker 2: I think overall though, this is my theory, which is, 236 00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:11,250 Speaker 2: Donald Trump just likes being popular, right? He, he boasts 237 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:13,890 Speaker 2: all the time about his biggest crowds, his winning the 238 00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:17,609 Speaker 2: popular vote, best this, biggest that, being a star on 239 00:13:17,609 --> 00:13:20,049 Speaker 2: the app, he says that he has a warm spot 240 00:13:20,049 --> 00:13:22,770 Speaker 2: in his heart for TikTok, and I think that the 241 00:13:22,770 --> 00:13:25,849 Speaker 2: bottom line is just like he just enjoys the positive 242 00:13:25,849 --> 00:13:29,049 Speaker 2: attention that TikTok has granted him. He has the unfettered ability. 243 00:13:29,419 --> 00:13:33,900 Speaker 2: To spread his message to 1415 million followers. So from 244 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:39,700 Speaker 2: Trump's perspective, you know, never mind those pesky national security concerns, which, yeah, 245 00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:42,169 Speaker 2: he raised in the past, but those don't matter now. 246 00:13:42,340 --> 00:13:46,109 Speaker 2: TikTok is good for me. I like TikTok, let's keep TikTok. And, 247 00:13:46,119 --> 00:13:48,858 Speaker 2: and now that he's president again or or soon to 248 00:13:48,859 --> 00:13:49,869 Speaker 2: be president again. 249 00:13:50,169 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 2: He could try and prevent that ban for that reason, right, 250 00:13:53,650 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: casting himself as the platform savior, and I think really 251 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,289 Speaker 2: that that that's it, that's the reality. Yeah, and influencers 252 00:13:59,289 --> 00:14:03,020 Speaker 2: would love him for that, right? OK, so Mr. Trump's appeal, 253 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,929 Speaker 2: could it work, you know, how likely is the Supreme 254 00:14:05,929 --> 00:14:07,919 Speaker 2: Court to overturn or pause the ban? 255 00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:11,239 Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question, and we're gonna find 256 00:14:11,239 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 2: out quite soon because the Supreme Court is holding its 257 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: hearing on TikTok on January 10th, and if, if it 258 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: decides to take up the case, first of all, President 259 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,159 Speaker 2: Biden would have to issue an extension on that deadline 260 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:28,039 Speaker 2: for ByteDance to sell TikTok. Otherwise that expires on the 19th. 261 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,039 Speaker 2: That's the day before Trump's inauguration. 262 00:14:30,479 --> 00:14:33,159 Speaker 2: If you're asking to sort of predict what the Supreme 263 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:36,359 Speaker 2: Court is gonna do, I think that's less actually to 264 00:14:36,359 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: do with the cases in which you're stronger on either side. 265 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,150 Speaker 2: It's more to do with where the justices lie politically 266 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,169 Speaker 2: and ideologically. This is a conservative leaning court. 267 00:14:46,385 --> 00:14:50,775 Speaker 2: Who might agree with TikTok's argument about the constitutional right 268 00:14:50,775 --> 00:14:53,575 Speaker 2: to free speech, the First Amendment. It is also though 269 00:14:53,575 --> 00:14:56,934 Speaker 2: a Trump leaning court. It has ruled in the president 270 00:14:56,934 --> 00:15:00,424 Speaker 2: elect's favor on a number of matters of late, for instance, 271 00:15:00,455 --> 00:15:02,294 Speaker 2: granting him presidential immunity. 272 00:15:02,770 --> 00:15:04,609 Speaker 2: TikTok could also go in front of the court, right, 273 00:15:04,659 --> 00:15:09,169 Speaker 2: and it could argue that it is practically impossible to 274 00:15:09,169 --> 00:15:11,450 Speaker 2: ban this app. You know, there was a bill that 275 00:15:11,450 --> 00:15:13,770 Speaker 2: went through Congress and it suggested that the way that 276 00:15:13,770 --> 00:15:16,489 Speaker 2: they would do this is they would penalize app stores 277 00:15:16,489 --> 00:15:20,849 Speaker 2: or internet providers for hosting versions of the app. I mean, yeah, 278 00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:23,419 Speaker 2: the US government is, you know, big and important, but 279 00:15:23,419 --> 00:15:25,969 Speaker 2: good luck imposing that sort of rule on on Apple 280 00:15:25,969 --> 00:15:28,849 Speaker 2: or or Google, and there'd be huge uproar amongst the 281 00:15:28,849 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 2: public as well, not that that stopped the Supreme Court, so. 282 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. I actually don't know which way this 283 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,679 Speaker 2: is going to go. We don't even know if the 284 00:15:36,679 --> 00:15:38,630 Speaker 2: Supreme Court are going to take it up or when 285 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: they'd have this decision. And then of course Trump's in 286 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,349 Speaker 2: the White House and he may decide to intervene as well. 287 00:15:44,799 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: So it's going to be a really interesting couple of 288 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,479 Speaker 2: weeks ahead, I think for TikTok. Definitely, yeah, I want 289 00:15:50,479 --> 00:15:52,479 Speaker 2: to pick up on that thought in a moment, but Olivia, 290 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,669 Speaker 2: you know, since the law was passed last year. 291 00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,140 Speaker 2: TikTok said the ban violates First Amendment protections. It's unconstitutional 292 00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:03,109 Speaker 2: and the Chinese government has called Washington to respect the 293 00:16:03,109 --> 00:16:07,710 Speaker 2: market economy, respect fair competition. How much more reactive could 294 00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:09,059 Speaker 2: Beijing get over this? 295 00:16:09,859 --> 00:16:12,940 Speaker 2: Oh, with the latest developments, we have seen Chinese media 296 00:16:12,940 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: like the China Daily say that the potential reprieve is 297 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,739 Speaker 2: a positive development, but other than that, the Chinese response 298 00:16:20,739 --> 00:16:24,260 Speaker 2: has been relatively measured or muted for that fact. If 299 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:27,219 Speaker 2: you would just think back to March last year, in 300 00:16:27,219 --> 00:16:30,020 Speaker 2: the lead up to and just after the US House 301 00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:32,900 Speaker 2: of Representatives passed the sell or ban bill paving the 302 00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:33,539 Speaker 2: way for it to be. 303 00:16:33,645 --> 00:16:38,245 Speaker 2: Eventually signed into law. In April, China's Foreign Ministry famously 304 00:16:38,245 --> 00:16:42,916 Speaker 2: called it quote sheer robbers' logic in which it accused 305 00:16:42,916 --> 00:16:46,356 Speaker 2: the US of trying to snatch from others all the 306 00:16:46,356 --> 00:16:49,466 Speaker 2: good things that they have, calling it an abuse of 307 00:16:49,695 --> 00:16:53,986 Speaker 2: national security to bring down competitive companies of other countries, 308 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:57,616 Speaker 2: saying that there is no fairness or justice. But since 309 00:16:57,771 --> 00:17:00,851 Speaker 2: Then there's been a shift in the Chinese government's intensity 310 00:17:00,851 --> 00:17:03,811 Speaker 2: of response and we've seen that as this ban of 311 00:17:03,812 --> 00:17:08,482 Speaker 2: TikTok has become more of a reality. Reports suggest that, 312 00:17:08,491 --> 00:17:11,732 Speaker 2: you know, after proceedings got going, TikTok chose to take 313 00:17:11,732 --> 00:17:14,251 Speaker 2: the case to the courts and to let its team 314 00:17:14,251 --> 00:17:18,651 Speaker 2: in the US, which famously is led by its Singaporean 315 00:17:18,651 --> 00:17:21,620 Speaker 2: CEO Sho Chuu, he had famously highlighted. 316 00:17:21,677 --> 00:17:26,307 Speaker 2: his nationality, TikTok choosing to let that team handle the 317 00:17:26,307 --> 00:17:30,988 Speaker 2: political lobbying and the legal battle. Questions about ongoing developments 318 00:17:30,988 --> 00:17:34,147 Speaker 2: relating to the ban in Beijing have been met with 319 00:17:34,147 --> 00:17:38,338 Speaker 2: answers from Chinese spokespersons just deferring back to their past statements. 320 00:17:38,667 --> 00:17:40,748 Speaker 2: And again, it would seem that the Chinese government is 321 00:17:40,748 --> 00:17:44,547 Speaker 2: trying to show relative restraint now, trying to distance itself 322 00:17:44,547 --> 00:17:45,647 Speaker 2: or perhaps keep its 323 00:17:46,354 --> 00:17:49,042 Speaker 2: He quite close to its chest, as Benji mentioned, there's 324 00:17:49,042 --> 00:17:51,994 Speaker 2: still a lot of uncertainty with what's going to happen, 325 00:17:52,083 --> 00:17:55,614 Speaker 2: but analysts have also said that, you know, this shouldn't 326 00:17:55,614 --> 00:17:58,654 Speaker 2: be taken as an indication that China is going to 327 00:17:58,654 --> 00:18:02,833 Speaker 2: back off or take this lying down. So my question is, 328 00:18:03,374 --> 00:18:06,234 Speaker 2: do you even think China would allow the sale of 329 00:18:06,234 --> 00:18:08,322 Speaker 2: TikTok if it meant staying in America? That seems like 330 00:18:08,323 --> 00:18:09,552 Speaker 2: a really big ask. 331 00:18:09,979 --> 00:18:12,810 Speaker 2: Yeah, we haven't really heard directly, you know, from China 332 00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 2: on what it would do, perhaps because of all these uncertainties, 333 00:18:16,489 --> 00:18:19,609 Speaker 2: but there have been statements to show that China is 334 00:18:19,609 --> 00:18:22,209 Speaker 2: not going to let up on this and it is 335 00:18:22,209 --> 00:18:26,369 Speaker 2: quite unlikely to let a sale go through. In March 2023, 336 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 2: China's Commerce Ministry then outrightly said that it is firmly 337 00:18:30,719 --> 00:18:34,149 Speaker 2: opposed to a forced sale of TikTok and the tricky 338 00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:36,609 Speaker 2: part here is with TikTok's algorithm, the ministry. 339 00:18:36,984 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 2: said that the sale or divestiture of TikTok is subject 340 00:18:40,836 --> 00:18:45,515 Speaker 2: to Chinese laws because it involves technology export and therefore, 341 00:18:45,645 --> 00:18:50,245 Speaker 2: it is subject to administrative licensing procedures. It also said 342 00:18:50,244 --> 00:18:52,965 Speaker 2: the Chinese government will make a decision in accordance with 343 00:18:52,965 --> 00:18:55,806 Speaker 2: the law. Don't forget that this has been like we've 344 00:18:55,806 --> 00:18:59,275 Speaker 2: been talking about a long standing issue dating back to Mr. 345 00:18:59,286 --> 00:19:01,845 Speaker 2: Trump's first term in office where he pushed for a 346 00:19:01,845 --> 00:19:03,436 Speaker 2: ban on the app in 2020. 347 00:19:04,281 --> 00:19:08,321 Speaker 2: amid an escalating China-US tech war, China actually moved to 348 00:19:08,321 --> 00:19:12,482 Speaker 2: revise its catalog of technologies that are subject to export 349 00:19:12,482 --> 00:19:17,802 Speaker 2: bans or restrictions, all pointing to targeting TikTok's price data 350 00:19:17,802 --> 00:19:22,001 Speaker 2: mining algorithm that pushes that content to people that has 351 00:19:22,001 --> 00:19:25,802 Speaker 2: made it so successful and what all this means is 352 00:19:25,802 --> 00:19:28,811 Speaker 2: ByteDance may not be able to make a decision of 353 00:19:28,811 --> 00:19:30,161 Speaker 2: a sale on its own. 354 00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:33,510 Speaker 2: And that may also be where the conundrum lies for TikTok, 355 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: even as it tries to make the argument in case 356 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,750 Speaker 2: that it does not have ties with the Chinese government. 357 00:19:39,839 --> 00:19:43,179 Speaker 2: There are few possible scenarios here, right? We talked about 358 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: letting the sale go through, which would be most unlikely 359 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: to have. 360 00:19:47,165 --> 00:19:50,655 Speaker 2: as it would make China look weak, especially as it 361 00:19:50,655 --> 00:19:55,165 Speaker 2: has framed this as an abuse of national security concerns 362 00:19:55,165 --> 00:19:58,604 Speaker 2: by the US. Don't forget that observers are also pointing 363 00:19:58,604 --> 00:20:01,675 Speaker 2: out that China is very mindful of this domestic audience 364 00:20:01,675 --> 00:20:03,275 Speaker 2: and how it's perceived as well. 365 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,489 Speaker 2: Another option some say is for ByteDance to sell its 366 00:20:07,489 --> 00:20:12,728 Speaker 2: US business without including the platform's algorithm, but the Chinese 367 00:20:12,729 --> 00:20:16,958 Speaker 2: Commerce Ministry did not respond directly to a question on whether, 368 00:20:17,170 --> 00:20:19,688 Speaker 2: you know, this could be a possibility, and this was 369 00:20:19,689 --> 00:20:23,659 Speaker 2: just last month. Observers including uh Carnegie China say. 370 00:20:23,723 --> 00:20:26,672 Speaker 2: What's most likely to happen then is that China could 371 00:20:26,672 --> 00:20:30,192 Speaker 2: block the sale and that would have greater repercussions for 372 00:20:30,192 --> 00:20:34,713 Speaker 2: China-US ties and could escalate tensions. This would be at 373 00:20:34,713 --> 00:20:39,512 Speaker 2: the expense of ByteDance's business if it's left unable to 374 00:20:39,512 --> 00:20:42,032 Speaker 2: operate in the US, which is a key market, and 375 00:20:42,032 --> 00:20:43,642 Speaker 2: it will be a huge loss for. 376 00:20:43,855 --> 00:20:47,456 Speaker 2: Talk in terms of revenue as well. But experts asking 377 00:20:47,455 --> 00:20:51,666 Speaker 2: that this could possibly let China gain political leverage amid 378 00:20:51,666 --> 00:20:57,176 Speaker 2: this China-US rivalry. OK, then before we go, Benji, let's 379 00:20:57,176 --> 00:20:59,696 Speaker 2: fast forward a few days, you know, so say the 380 00:20:59,696 --> 00:21:03,936 Speaker 2: law is upheld. January 19th comes around, TikTok is banned, 381 00:21:04,296 --> 00:21:07,296 Speaker 2: but then the day after on January 20th, Donald Trump 382 00:21:07,296 --> 00:21:10,875 Speaker 2: is inaugurated as president. Could he still intervene at that 383 00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:12,086 Speaker 2: point and maybe save it? 384 00:21:12,819 --> 00:21:15,380 Speaker 2: So actually, yes, he could try and there's a couple 385 00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:18,250 Speaker 2: of things he could do, but they all have problems. If, 386 00:21:18,260 --> 00:21:21,579 Speaker 2: if we go one by one, firstly, he could ask 387 00:21:21,579 --> 00:21:25,050 Speaker 2: Congress to repeal the legislation. So Congress is the, the 388 00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:27,380 Speaker 2: body that passed this bill. He could go back to 389 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:30,180 Speaker 2: them and say, reverse it. It's possible. I mean, he 390 00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,109 Speaker 2: holds both chambers of Congress narrowly, but there would be 391 00:21:33,109 --> 00:21:36,060 Speaker 2: a big backlash, I think, amongst some of the Sino 392 00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:39,979 Speaker 2: skeptic representatives on Capitol Hill, as well as arguably some 393 00:21:39,979 --> 00:21:41,849 Speaker 2: American social media companies. 394 00:21:42,151 --> 00:21:45,232 Speaker 2: OK, so that's option one. Option two would be to 395 00:21:45,232 --> 00:21:48,911 Speaker 2: take executive action. So don't go back to Congress, just 396 00:21:48,911 --> 00:21:52,781 Speaker 2: go down and ask his Justice Department to effectively abstain 397 00:21:52,991 --> 00:21:56,232 Speaker 2: from enforcing the law. The issue with that is that 398 00:21:56,232 --> 00:21:59,671 Speaker 2: the law still remains in effect. And so if you're 399 00:21:59,671 --> 00:22:02,952 Speaker 2: a company like Apple, even if Donald Trump said don't 400 00:22:02,952 --> 00:22:05,671 Speaker 2: worry about it, you're still in violation of it. So 401 00:22:05,671 --> 00:22:08,271 Speaker 2: if you're, if you're the general counsel of Apple, are 402 00:22:08,271 --> 00:22:11,192 Speaker 2: you really going to just bank on Trump. 403 00:22:11,523 --> 00:22:14,244 Speaker 2: Truth social post that, yeah, I'm not going to enforce 404 00:22:14,244 --> 00:22:17,163 Speaker 2: the law anymore. You're probably not because of the fact 405 00:22:17,163 --> 00:22:19,883 Speaker 2: that Trump has form of changing his mind, especially on 406 00:22:19,884 --> 00:22:24,043 Speaker 2: this topic of TikTok. Alternatively, there is this option where 407 00:22:24,042 --> 00:22:27,042 Speaker 2: he could try to push through that sale from ByteDance, 408 00:22:27,083 --> 00:22:31,072 Speaker 2: and Donald Trump would love that. He brands himself as Mr. 409 00:22:31,083 --> 00:22:33,833 Speaker 2: Deal Breaker, Art of the deal. That is Donald Trump. 410 00:22:34,163 --> 00:22:38,163 Speaker 2: Even if there are potentially buyers in the US, China 411 00:22:38,163 --> 00:22:40,523 Speaker 2: really reluctant to comply on that front. So. 412 00:22:40,666 --> 00:22:43,744 Speaker 2: The options are there, but they have their challenges. And 413 00:22:43,744 --> 00:22:47,014 Speaker 2: I think that the, the worry, even though there are opportunities, 414 00:22:47,095 --> 00:22:50,095 Speaker 2: the worry for the Trump administration is that this is 415 00:22:50,095 --> 00:22:53,494 Speaker 2: more than just an app where people do funny dances, right? 416 00:22:53,536 --> 00:22:56,446 Speaker 2: The stakes are really high here because whichever way this goes, 417 00:22:56,494 --> 00:23:00,576 Speaker 2: and there are multiple outcomes and implications, this is clearly 418 00:23:00,576 --> 00:23:05,455 Speaker 2: going to have consequences for US-China ties. That bilateral relationship 419 00:23:05,455 --> 00:23:07,975 Speaker 2: between the global superpowers is going to be tested if 420 00:23:07,975 --> 00:23:09,956 Speaker 2: a ban is put in place. Beijing could 421 00:23:10,239 --> 00:23:12,750 Speaker 2: Ma, you know, choose to respond, then this could spill 422 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:16,150 Speaker 2: over more widely as part of this tit for tat 423 00:23:16,150 --> 00:23:19,290 Speaker 2: trade war that is going on between China and the 424 00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:22,208 Speaker 2: United States. I wouldn't say anything is set in stone. 425 00:23:22,270 --> 00:23:26,030 Speaker 2: I would say it's massively moving in terms of the parts, 426 00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:28,390 Speaker 2: and we might not know until, you know. 427 00:23:28,535 --> 00:23:31,284 Speaker 2: Trump, frankly, has had his last say on this. Yeah, 428 00:23:31,405 --> 00:23:34,765 Speaker 2: and all the while, some 170 million users in America 429 00:23:34,765 --> 00:23:38,125 Speaker 2: counting down the days as they watch things unfold. Things 430 00:23:38,125 --> 00:23:40,395 Speaker 2: really unclear, but you guys, thank you so much for 431 00:23:40,395 --> 00:23:43,194 Speaker 2: shedding some light on what could happen in the days ahead. 432 00:23:43,285 --> 00:23:46,685 Speaker 2: Benji and Olivia really appreciate this. Thank you. Thanks. 433 00:23:47,410 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: You can find all the reports from our correspondents on 434 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,599 Speaker 2: YouTube and on CNA. Asia, and don't forget there are 435 00:23:53,599 --> 00:23:57,719 Speaker 2: TV episodes of CNA Correspondent every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Singapore, 436 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,839 Speaker 2: Hong Kong time. I'm Teresa Tang. The team behind this 437 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: week's episode is Sai Yain, Clara Ong, Christina Robert, and 438 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,550 Speaker 2: Craig Dale. Join us again for more next week. Take care.