1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast. 2 00:00:04,610 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Hello again and welcome back to the heart of the matter. 3 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Stephen chow. Now recently someone posted online 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: about a locksmith who took less than five minutes to 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: fix a log? And he charged $200 for it? Equip 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: went something like this. You're not paying me for five 7 00:00:19,570 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: minutes of service but for 25 years of developing the skill. 8 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:26,190 Speaker 1: Well that's the subject we're unpacking today. The value of 9 00:00:26,190 --> 00:00:28,190 Speaker 1: a job and the price tag we put on it. 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,250 Speaker 1: It was recently reported that a university graduate starts in 11 00:00:31,250 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: a salary that is doubled 12 00:00:32,735 --> 00:00:36,035 Speaker 1: that of an I. T. Grad. In 2021. The median 13 00:00:36,034 --> 00:00:41,015 Speaker 1: salary for new graduates was $3800 for Polygraphs. It was 14 00:00:41,025 --> 00:00:47,805 Speaker 1: 2400 for I. T. Grads $1800. Singapore's Deputy Prime Minister 15 00:00:47,805 --> 00:00:51,455 Speaker 1: Lawrence Wong came out to say that something needs to change. 16 00:00:51,465 --> 00:00:56,565 Speaker 1: Every industry must relook its skills ladder and invest in 17 00:00:56,565 --> 00:01:00,845 Speaker 1: ways to attract, retain and reward their workers. 18 00:01:01,190 --> 00:01:05,350 Speaker 1: This is not just about reshaping the labor market, it's 19 00:01:05,350 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: also about shifting our perception towards work and embracing a 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,530 Speaker 1: broader definition of what counts as good jobs for us 21 00:01:14,530 --> 00:01:20,169 Speaker 1: to recognize skills and competencies rather than the overly focused 22 00:01:20,180 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: on paper qualifications. So are we placing too much emphasis 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: on head work and less on heart or handwork despite 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:29,419 Speaker 1: the years of effort into it 25 00:01:29,430 --> 00:01:32,350 Speaker 1: transforming our polytechnics and I. T. E. S. With many 26 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: of these graduates entering the industry with ready skills, why 27 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: have their salaries not kept pace? Is it just a 28 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,530 Speaker 1: question of perception and if we want to pay our technicians, nurses, plumbers, 29 00:01:43,530 --> 00:01:47,710 Speaker 1: car mechanics as well as their university educated counterparts. What 30 00:01:47,710 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: needs to happen? Can it happen 31 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: with me to discuss this? Are Markley, head of client 32 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,670 Speaker 1: solutions at Randstad Singapore, pleasure to be here. Christine Kunasek, 33 00:01:59,870 --> 00:02:04,140 Speaker 1: a sales operations analyst at Hewlett Packard Enterprise who graduated 34 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:07,030 Speaker 1: from I. T. Over 10 years ago. Hi, glad to 35 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: be here as well. Wong chi Xin, a recent Tomasic 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,420 Speaker 1: poly graduate from the School of Engineering. Hello, Same here. 37 00:02:13,419 --> 00:02:15,470 Speaker 1: I'm glad to be here. All right guys, great to 38 00:02:15,470 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: have you here with me, Mark, I'm going to start 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:18,489 Speaker 1: off with you, 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,930 Speaker 1: You know, you're in the business of hiring people, helping 41 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:24,950 Speaker 1: them determine their salaries and can you kick things off 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,270 Speaker 1: by explaining how our salaries set in the first place 43 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: salaries generally follow market expectations that what employer wants to pay. 44 00:02:33,690 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: This depends on the demand for a certain role that 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. Tech roles have been very 46 00:02:39,169 --> 00:02:41,970 Speaker 1: in demand in the last, I would say 3-5 years. 47 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:43,950 Speaker 1: In fact off the charts last year we did a 48 00:02:43,950 --> 00:02:48,470 Speaker 1: record number of tech placements. So naturally salaries are set higher. 49 00:02:48,493 --> 00:02:51,733 Speaker 1: Then let's say a back office role for a financial 50 00:02:51,733 --> 00:02:56,032 Speaker 1: institution that is being automated slowly and offshore in time. 51 00:02:56,043 --> 00:02:58,643 Speaker 1: If the question is how are salary set, it really 52 00:02:58,643 --> 00:03:01,483 Speaker 1: comes to the demand and supply of a certain role, 53 00:03:01,493 --> 00:03:04,463 Speaker 1: but this is not counting as well. What we want 54 00:03:04,463 --> 00:03:08,232 Speaker 1: to talk about today? The disparity of pay between certain 55 00:03:08,243 --> 00:03:12,293 Speaker 1: education certifications because when we look at grads and non 56 00:03:12,293 --> 00:03:17,013 Speaker 1: grads there is a large disparity almost double what the 57 00:03:17,013 --> 00:03:18,283 Speaker 1: other is earning? Absolutely 58 00:03:18,306 --> 00:03:20,566 Speaker 1: right. And when we look at it as recruiters as 59 00:03:20,566 --> 00:03:24,466 Speaker 1: well we don't see a reason behind that because in 60 00:03:24,466 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: the end what we think and actually what some economies 61 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:31,585 Speaker 1: follow out. Their work experience actually comes for more than 62 00:03:31,586 --> 00:03:34,786 Speaker 1: the education certification. So when you look at it that 63 00:03:34,786 --> 00:03:38,496 Speaker 1: way then there shouldn't be the disparity. But unfortunately in 64 00:03:38,496 --> 00:03:41,956 Speaker 1: Singapore we haven't arrived at that place just yet. Okay. 65 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:44,446 Speaker 1: But that's also you're saying work experience which means you've 66 00:03:44,446 --> 00:03:46,746 Speaker 1: been in the workforce for a while. But if you're 67 00:03:46,746 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: fresh out of school 68 00:03:48,260 --> 00:03:52,350 Speaker 1: comparing a university graduate from an I. T. Grad there 69 00:03:52,350 --> 00:03:55,460 Speaker 1: is a large disparity. I mean Christine you graduated from I. T. 70 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:57,350 Speaker 1: You've been in the workforce for over a decade. But 71 00:03:57,350 --> 00:03:59,420 Speaker 1: when you first came out did you feel, oh man 72 00:03:59,420 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: this is so unfair. Truth be told when I started 73 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,580 Speaker 1: my first job my salary it wasn't really good. But 74 00:04:05,590 --> 00:04:08,210 Speaker 1: the attitude that I have it being my first job 75 00:04:08,210 --> 00:04:10,260 Speaker 1: was that I just went with it right And I 76 00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:14,540 Speaker 1: just accepted that salary and I stayed in the job 77 00:04:14,550 --> 00:04:17,150 Speaker 1: I did my best I put my heart and mind 78 00:04:17,150 --> 00:04:19,229 Speaker 1: to it. I think that's the right attitude 79 00:04:19,255 --> 00:04:21,214 Speaker 1: that someone should have. Would you mind telling us what 80 00:04:21,214 --> 00:04:23,515 Speaker 1: was your first job? I was an assistant to a 81 00:04:23,515 --> 00:04:27,245 Speaker 1: sales engineer for precision engineering company. Okay. And you don't 82 00:04:27,245 --> 00:04:29,175 Speaker 1: have to answer this if it's sensitive, but what was 83 00:04:29,175 --> 00:04:31,655 Speaker 1: your pay at that time? I can say it's $1000 84 00:04:31,855 --> 00:04:34,335 Speaker 1: 1000 dollars. And even my cost manager at that time, 85 00:04:34,335 --> 00:04:36,724 Speaker 1: he did tell me Christine your salary is too low. 86 00:04:36,735 --> 00:04:39,365 Speaker 1: Oh even he told me that I didn't really think 87 00:04:39,365 --> 00:04:41,595 Speaker 1: much about the money because I really wanted to get 88 00:04:41,605 --> 00:04:42,890 Speaker 1: the experience I needed 89 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,650 Speaker 1: to complete the bond that I was serving at the time, 90 00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:48,550 Speaker 1: which was the position engineering scholarship bond that we were 91 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:50,830 Speaker 1: all under the salary wasn't in a way you knew 92 00:04:50,830 --> 00:04:53,660 Speaker 1: was low, but you wanted to get that experience correct correct. 93 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: And I think it's about perspective as well, right? You 94 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,310 Speaker 1: knowing that you're really new, You need to prove your worth. 95 00:04:59,310 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: You need to get your skin in the game. You 96 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,210 Speaker 1: just go inside and you do what you have to 97 00:05:02,210 --> 00:05:02,620 Speaker 1: do 98 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:06,550 Speaker 1: and today has it flipped. Can you say you're now 99 00:05:06,550 --> 00:05:09,460 Speaker 1: kind of on par with your colleagues? Yes. I think 100 00:05:09,460 --> 00:05:11,780 Speaker 1: I can see that also depends on the industry that 101 00:05:11,779 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: we're in. Okay. And this is after over a decade 102 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,790 Speaker 1: of experience that you had to sort of learn that 103 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,470 Speaker 1: correct and prove your worth. Okay. And what about you? 104 00:05:19,470 --> 00:05:23,169 Speaker 1: You've just finished polly you're doing university now and we 105 00:05:23,170 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: know the program you took part in. The whole idea 106 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,490 Speaker 1: was to bridge the gap between what you studied and 107 00:05:27,490 --> 00:05:29,060 Speaker 1: skills that you need in the industry. 108 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: But do you feel that it's unfair that you need 109 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,580 Speaker 1: to take sort of extra steps like now going to 110 00:05:33,580 --> 00:05:36,010 Speaker 1: university to sort of bring yourself so that you will 111 00:05:36,010 --> 00:05:39,180 Speaker 1: be on power with grads. Okay. I disagree with that 112 00:05:39,180 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: because I believe is that learning is a nonstop process 113 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: is a never ending process. So it's always good for 114 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,490 Speaker 1: me to enroll on my degree program to get on 115 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: the same level as them. Okay. So you would have 116 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,110 Speaker 1: done it anyway. Yes, correct. Within the capability means, 117 00:05:54,193 --> 00:05:56,413 Speaker 1: is that why you decided not to go and start 118 00:05:56,413 --> 00:06:00,233 Speaker 1: work straightaway after finishing your polytechnic diploma for that? I 119 00:06:00,233 --> 00:06:03,003 Speaker 1: did proceed to work out in the industry straight away 120 00:06:03,013 --> 00:06:06,483 Speaker 1: and that's where I come across this work study program, right? 121 00:06:06,493 --> 00:06:10,153 Speaker 1: How this program works is whereby I will undergo 1 122 00:06:10,153 --> 00:06:14,173 Speaker 1: to 1.5 years of duration and it consists of me 123 00:06:14,173 --> 00:06:18,063 Speaker 1: learning a couple of modules in the polytechnic as well 124 00:06:18,063 --> 00:06:19,183 Speaker 1: as in, you know 125 00:06:19,196 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 1: university. So the process goes whereby I'll be attached to 126 00:06:22,836 --> 00:06:26,096 Speaker 1: a company, I'll be no different from a full time staff. 127 00:06:26,106 --> 00:06:29,936 Speaker 1: Um concurrently attending night classes virtually while during the day 128 00:06:29,936 --> 00:06:32,616 Speaker 1: I'm working for the company. Okay, But you are having 129 00:06:32,616 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 1: to do these extra things just to bring yourself up 130 00:06:36,236 --> 00:06:39,426 Speaker 1: to par with what university Grad would not have to do. 131 00:06:39,426 --> 00:06:40,695 Speaker 1: I mean he would come in straight away and get 132 00:06:40,696 --> 00:06:43,426 Speaker 1: the job and not have to continue doing extra classes 133 00:06:43,426 --> 00:06:44,186 Speaker 1: and things like that. 134 00:06:44,370 --> 00:06:45,790 Speaker 1: Do you feel that it's unfair that you have to 135 00:06:45,790 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: do all these extra things? I don't think it's unfair 136 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,890 Speaker 1: because to them, they go through university and they gain 137 00:06:51,890 --> 00:06:54,930 Speaker 1: the knowledge. But to me right, I gain the hands 138 00:06:54,930 --> 00:06:58,250 Speaker 1: on experience. So when I went back into the industry, 139 00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:01,220 Speaker 1: I would know what to do and what not to do. 140 00:07:01,230 --> 00:07:03,529 Speaker 1: So I would think that these are the steps that 141 00:07:03,529 --> 00:07:06,380 Speaker 1: would bring the company to greater heights, right? And you 142 00:07:06,380 --> 00:07:07,810 Speaker 1: were telling us that for you, this is also a 143 00:07:07,810 --> 00:07:10,140 Speaker 1: long term plan because you you see that 144 00:07:10,330 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: having a degree will help you climb the corporate ladder 145 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: or the career ladder in a better way. Well, what 146 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,130 Speaker 1: do you make of that? Yeah, I mean we have 147 00:07:19,130 --> 00:07:21,670 Speaker 1: two very driven individuals here and then they're they're very 148 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:24,570 Speaker 1: happy to kind of put in extra effort lifelong learning 149 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:26,660 Speaker 1: and that's gotten them to where they are today. But 150 00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:28,370 Speaker 1: at the same time, I think there's two issues here. 151 00:07:28,370 --> 00:07:31,690 Speaker 1: One is that you can adjust yourself and like two 152 00:07:31,690 --> 00:07:33,300 Speaker 1: friends Christina and have done, 153 00:07:33,590 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: They have better themselves. They they've chosen to and they 154 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,310 Speaker 1: are going to enter the system and they feel that 155 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:39,980 Speaker 1: that's the way to go. But at the same time 156 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:42,500 Speaker 1: we should also look at the systemic. Is there any 157 00:07:42,510 --> 00:07:46,870 Speaker 1: inequality in looking at jobs and the people that are 158 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: fit for these jobs from my experience, what we see, 99% 159 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,510 Speaker 1: of the roles that we see these days or maybe 160 00:07:53,510 --> 00:07:54,940 Speaker 1: not 90% 161 00:07:55,170 --> 00:07:57,500 Speaker 1: they put in the requirements that they look at the 162 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:01,550 Speaker 1: university degree holder. Now the question here is, do you 163 00:08:01,550 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: really need a degree holder to perform this role? Some 164 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,660 Speaker 1: cases yes. If you're looking at very technical roles, like 165 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,340 Speaker 1: said you gain the knowledge in school in university and 166 00:08:11,340 --> 00:08:14,300 Speaker 1: you can do the role. However, there are roles out 167 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: there that are more data entry for example, I mean 168 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,110 Speaker 1: and they put that universe 169 00:08:19,425 --> 00:08:23,095 Speaker 1: required for data entry doesn't make sense I mean but 170 00:08:23,095 --> 00:08:25,285 Speaker 1: let's talk about some of those jobs because of course 171 00:08:25,285 --> 00:08:28,075 Speaker 1: every parent wants the best for their child. Often wants 172 00:08:28,075 --> 00:08:30,395 Speaker 1: them to be a graduate. But the paper chase can 173 00:08:30,395 --> 00:08:34,955 Speaker 1: lead to jobs like nursing, you know, mechanic carpentry plumbers, 174 00:08:34,955 --> 00:08:38,775 Speaker 1: you know these therefore become devalued. But if we think 175 00:08:38,775 --> 00:08:41,755 Speaker 1: about it, these jobs are very essential to our daily lives. 176 00:08:41,755 --> 00:08:43,100 Speaker 1: We can't live without them. Right? 177 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,020 Speaker 1: So why isn't the economics of it more obvious there's 178 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:50,770 Speaker 1: demand for these skills but yet we don't reward them enough. Yeah. Exactly. 179 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:52,410 Speaker 1: And you know what? These are things that you can't 180 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: live without. So for example, I'm going to compare two 181 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,380 Speaker 1: jobs here, right? You're looking at the crypto firms that 182 00:08:56,380 --> 00:08:58,980 Speaker 1: were hot last year. Can I do without crypto for 183 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: Of course I can write but I can't do without 184 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,610 Speaker 1: my icon on my light. And you know what those 185 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:06,390 Speaker 1: are the hand jobs that you mentioned. These are crucial 186 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:09,860 Speaker 1: jobs that are filled and performed by people with skills. 187 00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:13,130 Speaker 1: So yes I agree that these jobs shouldn't be devalued 188 00:09:13,130 --> 00:09:15,459 Speaker 1: at all. We should look at them and then think 189 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:18,010 Speaker 1: about how much value we place on them. The instance 190 00:09:18,010 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: that you mentioned $200. Is that too much? Maybe not 191 00:09:21,450 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: in that instance I really needed my door to be open. 192 00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:26,710 Speaker 1: and I'm willing to pay that amount. So I think 193 00:09:26,710 --> 00:09:29,349 Speaker 1: it is a little bit about the system and what 194 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,820 Speaker 1: society places value on and I think there needs to 195 00:09:32,820 --> 00:09:35,569 Speaker 1: be a shift in thinking as well but that shift 196 00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:38,140 Speaker 1: in thinking and that mindset that we have. I mean Christine. 197 00:09:38,140 --> 00:09:40,570 Speaker 1: Did you ever feel that people looked at you differently 198 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: because you were an I. T. Grad? I think at 199 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: the beginning people were curious in my first job you 200 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,370 Speaker 1: know when I said I was from I. T. But 201 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:47,700 Speaker 1: yet I had a diploma and you know they were 202 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:51,030 Speaker 1: curious about it but I never felt that it was 203 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: a condescending kind of glare or anything like that. 204 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: I don't think I was looked down upon in that 205 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,830 Speaker 1: way but more like of curiosity and I mean you 206 00:09:59,830 --> 00:10:01,780 Speaker 1: you said you know a lot of people start work 207 00:10:01,790 --> 00:10:04,330 Speaker 1: after finishing Polly would you have done that? Did you 208 00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:06,350 Speaker 1: feel that you also don't want to do that because 209 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,140 Speaker 1: in a way to sort of just work full time 210 00:10:08,140 --> 00:10:10,300 Speaker 1: without going back to school again, did you feel that 211 00:10:10,300 --> 00:10:10,820 Speaker 1: that would 212 00:10:11,090 --> 00:10:13,260 Speaker 1: not allow you to progress as far as I know? 213 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:15,410 Speaker 1: What I was thinking back then was I had a 214 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:18,170 Speaker 1: time and I didn't want to rush myself to settle 215 00:10:18,170 --> 00:10:21,350 Speaker 1: down into the industry, so why not take the opportunity 216 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: to explore and look around to finalize my thinking as 217 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: to what I'm going to decide to do 218 00:10:26,385 --> 00:10:28,574 Speaker 1: for my career in the long term. So if you 219 00:10:28,575 --> 00:10:30,895 Speaker 1: think about it, I mean we pay you know a doctor, 220 00:10:30,895 --> 00:10:34,255 Speaker 1: a lawyer, lots of money but yet a nurse we 221 00:10:34,255 --> 00:10:35,934 Speaker 1: don't pay as much when you think about it, they 222 00:10:35,934 --> 00:10:38,675 Speaker 1: both do take care of you and to a certain 223 00:10:38,675 --> 00:10:41,204 Speaker 1: extent your life is in their hands at some point 224 00:10:41,205 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: in time. 225 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: So why is there still that disparity and Mark, you 226 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,790 Speaker 1: said his mindset, I mean is it partly our asian culture, 227 00:10:47,790 --> 00:10:50,020 Speaker 1: do we look down on these jobs? Yeah, I do 228 00:10:50,020 --> 00:10:52,110 Speaker 1: think there's a certain element of that, I'll draw a 229 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,100 Speaker 1: comparison between having a permanent job and a contract job. 230 00:10:55,110 --> 00:10:57,550 Speaker 1: You know, effectively they're both jobs. But if you if 231 00:10:57,550 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 1: you came back one day and told your parents you 232 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,750 Speaker 1: have a contract job they're going to tell you please 233 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:02,809 Speaker 1: get a real job, right? So I do think there's 234 00:11:02,809 --> 00:11:07,410 Speaker 1: this societal thinking stigma about certain jobs and the status 235 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:09,790 Speaker 1: that it brings, which shouldn't be the case because like 236 00:11:09,790 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: you said, 237 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,730 Speaker 1: a nurse and a doctor both take care of you. 238 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:16,380 Speaker 1: They both effectively healthcare individuals, right? So there shouldn't be 239 00:11:16,380 --> 00:11:18,729 Speaker 1: a difference between that and the way that you view it, 240 00:11:18,740 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: when you consider the amount of skill involved in each job, 241 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,980 Speaker 1: you have a difference. But in essence they are still 242 00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: both healthcare individuals. Can I just chime in on that? 243 00:11:27,809 --> 00:11:28,309 Speaker 1: A doctor 244 00:11:28,330 --> 00:11:31,110 Speaker 1: does have greater leverage in the nurse and you know, 245 00:11:31,110 --> 00:11:33,689 Speaker 1: the decisions they make can affect a person's life as well. 246 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:35,579 Speaker 1: Whereas a nurse doesn't really have to make those kind 247 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:38,730 Speaker 1: of life saving decisions. Right? So I think the leverage 248 00:11:38,730 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: that doctor has will probably add to the amount of 249 00:11:41,770 --> 00:11:45,100 Speaker 1: salary is getting, he has greater responsibility. That is true. 250 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 1: But guess what? So does an electrician. Let me explain recently, 251 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,300 Speaker 1: we did a topic about water heaters and the safety 252 00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:52,690 Speaker 1: of them and we found out that 253 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: it was the way they were installed that made them dangerous. 254 00:11:55,410 --> 00:11:59,450 Speaker 1: And if you have an unqualified electrician installing it, that 255 00:11:59,450 --> 00:12:02,550 Speaker 1: could lead to death. So this electrician, I was interviewing, 256 00:12:02,550 --> 00:12:05,089 Speaker 1: he said steve do you realize actually I have a 257 00:12:05,090 --> 00:12:07,770 Speaker 1: license to kill and it comes to me, I'm like, 258 00:12:07,780 --> 00:12:09,770 Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know, if you think about it that 259 00:12:09,770 --> 00:12:10,530 Speaker 1: way because 260 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,550 Speaker 1: we all use electricity, but yet we don't want to 261 00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:15,700 Speaker 1: pay the guy to take more time to do it 262 00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:19,850 Speaker 1: even though it is really a possible life threat and 263 00:12:19,860 --> 00:12:22,740 Speaker 1: there will be certain situations as well. I'm sure some 264 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:25,390 Speaker 1: of my engineer friends that graduates, they couldn't do the 265 00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:28,890 Speaker 1: job of a qualified electrician. So it's it's still very 266 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: different university doing that role which you entrust your life with. 267 00:12:33,929 --> 00:12:36,540 Speaker 1: But yet we don't want to pay them so much. 268 00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: So how do we deal with that? 269 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:41,020 Speaker 1: So let me share with you heard this one. Somebody 270 00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: said jobs aren't really that different. What do plumbers, garbage 271 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: men and economists all have in common? They all deal 272 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: with gross domestic product. 273 00:12:51,429 --> 00:12:52,599 Speaker 1: Okay. 274 00:12:53,390 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean if you think about it at the end 275 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,220 Speaker 1: of the day, we all have a job. What we 276 00:12:57,220 --> 00:12:59,990 Speaker 1: do affect the lives of the people around us. 277 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:08,540 Speaker 2: Are you looking for ways to make your money work 278 00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:12,910 Speaker 2: harder for you or need tips on saving, investing and 279 00:13:12,910 --> 00:13:17,579 Speaker 2: making financial decisions? Join me Sarah Khaldi on money talks, 280 00:13:17,650 --> 00:13:22,950 Speaker 2: CNN's top personal finance podcast from Investment basics too. 281 00:13:22,965 --> 00:13:26,715 Speaker 2: The fire movement and legacy planning. I look at financial 282 00:13:26,715 --> 00:13:30,125 Speaker 2: trends and new stories that matter to you. Check out 283 00:13:30,135 --> 00:13:33,265 Speaker 2: our complete playlist on the C. N. A. Ap Apple 284 00:13:33,265 --> 00:13:37,385 Speaker 2: and google podcasts or Spotify. You can also follow us 285 00:13:37,395 --> 00:13:40,015 Speaker 2: or subscribe for new weekly episodes. 286 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: So let's talk now about how we can try and 287 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: narrow this gap because Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong also 288 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,780 Speaker 1: alluded to a few more issues first. He says if 289 00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: your I. T. Grads not paid well they end up 290 00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:54,950 Speaker 1: leaving the industry and therefore you're left with a shortfall 291 00:13:54,950 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: we already have a manpower crunch, it could be worse. 292 00:13:57,650 --> 00:14:00,620 Speaker 1: Think of all the MRT trains that may not work 293 00:14:00,620 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: for a start, does this mean then we'll have to 294 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,219 Speaker 1: rely on more migrant labor which is something we don't 295 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:05,819 Speaker 1: want to do. 296 00:14:06,050 --> 00:14:08,870 Speaker 1: So how do you think we can go about fixing this? 297 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:11,830 Speaker 1: Well the first thing I think is that employers the 298 00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:14,300 Speaker 1: employers need to start to change the way they view 299 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:17,170 Speaker 1: jobs and the salaries that they pay. They need to 300 00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:19,940 Speaker 1: look at the roles that they have. It's almost like 301 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:22,070 Speaker 1: looking at individual roles and deciding whether or not these 302 00:14:22,070 --> 00:14:23,690 Speaker 1: roles should get paid 303 00:14:23,705 --> 00:14:27,845 Speaker 1: More than others. In some cases maybe a wage equality 304 00:14:27,845 --> 00:14:30,275 Speaker 1: revision is required and you know what? There's a lot 305 00:14:30,275 --> 00:14:32,935 Speaker 1: of that going around now in the various industries they're 306 00:14:32,935 --> 00:14:35,625 Speaker 1: looking at it and they're going you know what attrition 307 00:14:35,635 --> 00:14:39,735 Speaker 1: is up to about 30-40%. That's pretty unacceptable because basically 308 00:14:39,735 --> 00:14:42,335 Speaker 1: you're losing one in every three and they're looking at 309 00:14:42,335 --> 00:14:44,995 Speaker 1: okay what do we have to do as a retention strategy? 310 00:14:45,005 --> 00:14:48,525 Speaker 1: We need to increase wages. A lot of attrition is 311 00:14:48,525 --> 00:14:50,705 Speaker 1: caused by salary issues. 312 00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:53,710 Speaker 1: People feeling that they're not getting paid what they're worth. 313 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,450 Speaker 1: They skip out, they change jobs. And given the gig 314 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:58,790 Speaker 1: industry now is very easy to translate into something for 315 00:14:58,790 --> 00:15:00,810 Speaker 1: a while before moving on to another job. When you 316 00:15:00,810 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: look at it wage increments are crucial and the first 317 00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:07,820 Speaker 1: entity to look at it will be the employers. So 318 00:15:07,830 --> 00:15:10,430 Speaker 1: Christine now that you've come a bit further and you're 319 00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: in a position where you can help your boss look 320 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,870 Speaker 1: out for other people. Do you feel that you would 321 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: hire someone differently? Would you look 322 00:15:16,655 --> 00:15:19,655 Speaker 1: them differently? Would you credit where you are today to 323 00:15:19,665 --> 00:15:22,825 Speaker 1: opportunities that you had under the first question about how 324 00:15:22,825 --> 00:15:25,725 Speaker 1: would I look at people differently if I have the 325 00:15:25,725 --> 00:15:29,995 Speaker 1: opportunity like to employ someone recently we were interviewing some 326 00:15:29,995 --> 00:15:33,425 Speaker 1: candidates right for our team and it really wasn't about 327 00:15:33,435 --> 00:15:35,775 Speaker 1: the credentials the person had even though you know I 328 00:15:35,775 --> 00:15:39,095 Speaker 1: saw the tv. So it's more like peer interview sort 329 00:15:39,095 --> 00:15:40,925 Speaker 1: of set up right? So that gave me the opportunity 330 00:15:40,925 --> 00:15:42,425 Speaker 1: to actually interview the person. 331 00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: So I was looking at the C. V. And again 332 00:15:44,850 --> 00:15:47,340 Speaker 1: it wasn't the background of the person meaning the school 333 00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:50,570 Speaker 1: that he came from. The qualification he had but rather 334 00:15:50,570 --> 00:15:52,670 Speaker 1: it was the experience that he had whether or not 335 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: he was placed in similar situations with what we're facing 336 00:15:56,170 --> 00:15:59,110 Speaker 1: in his previous roles right? If the industry he was 337 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,130 Speaker 1: in was different is it replicable in our industry. Can 338 00:16:02,130 --> 00:16:04,350 Speaker 1: you carry those skills forward? Can it be applied in 339 00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:07,590 Speaker 1: the same way? So you were looking beyond 340 00:16:08,715 --> 00:16:11,305 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. Do you feel that that's partly because of 341 00:16:11,305 --> 00:16:16,815 Speaker 1: your background. No I don't think it was 100%, maybe 50%. 342 00:16:16,825 --> 00:16:18,865 Speaker 1: Um you know, we do have some bias nous when 343 00:16:18,865 --> 00:16:22,165 Speaker 1: we look at certain situations right? Maybe 50% because of 344 00:16:22,165 --> 00:16:24,605 Speaker 1: my background, but I think it's probably the training that 345 00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:25,715 Speaker 1: I had along the way 346 00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:29,330 Speaker 1: where you are today also was that because there were 347 00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:31,970 Speaker 1: certain opportunities that were given to? Exactly yeah, there were 348 00:16:31,970 --> 00:16:34,850 Speaker 1: good opportunities and good mentors along the way that I met, 349 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:37,670 Speaker 1: there were people there willing to coach me to basically 350 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,990 Speaker 1: speak with me. You give me that consult that I 351 00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:42,790 Speaker 1: needed the expert advice on how I should go forward 352 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:45,850 Speaker 1: in life, right? Some are people that I speak with 353 00:16:45,860 --> 00:16:48,710 Speaker 1: directly personally, but there are some people that I also 354 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:49,940 Speaker 1: listen to our podcasts, 355 00:16:49,950 --> 00:16:52,070 Speaker 1: right? I do read some of the books um and 356 00:16:52,070 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: I think it kind of shifted my mindset a little 357 00:16:54,410 --> 00:16:57,470 Speaker 1: but you needed to have that first person offered the 358 00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,620 Speaker 1: opportunity and say I think you can do it, I'm 359 00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:02,180 Speaker 1: going to give you the opportunity to try, right? Because 360 00:17:02,190 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: very often I think like I was saying employers have 361 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: a different mindset I think now if you ask me, 362 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,700 Speaker 1: it still has the majority of employees that come to 363 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:11,340 Speaker 1: us and here's the job description. Can you find me 364 00:17:11,340 --> 00:17:13,620 Speaker 1: someone that basically reads like my job description, 365 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:16,590 Speaker 1: What we do need more is what Christina had, you know, 366 00:17:16,590 --> 00:17:19,250 Speaker 1: mentors and leaders that are willing to take a chance 367 00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:23,090 Speaker 1: based on a person's character based on a person's drive 368 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:26,220 Speaker 1: and energy, maybe they've spoken to them an interview 369 00:17:26,430 --> 00:17:28,409 Speaker 1: and then feel that so I know a couple of 370 00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:33,070 Speaker 1: entrepreneur friends and they pick up people into their companies 371 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,740 Speaker 1: based on an interview where the person doesn't have any 372 00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:41,230 Speaker 1: prior experience, regardless of education or not based on that 373 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,990 Speaker 1: drive of the person and passion for the industry or role, 374 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,710 Speaker 1: they pick him up and you know, it has been successful, 375 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,990 Speaker 1: I myself as a team member has been top performing 376 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,430 Speaker 1: and you know what, he's not a graduate, but in 377 00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: the sales role. Sometimes you do 378 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,850 Speaker 1: don't need a graduate to do a sales, but it 379 00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:58,910 Speaker 1: sounds like you need a certain type of employer and 380 00:17:58,910 --> 00:18:01,050 Speaker 1: it sounds like it requires more effort on their part, 381 00:18:01,060 --> 00:18:03,810 Speaker 1: which they may not be willing to do. Yeah, it 382 00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:06,910 Speaker 1: requires taking a chance, it might not work out. I 383 00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: do think it's this fear of failure, you know, in 384 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,260 Speaker 1: our society as well, sometimes you're not allowed to fail, 385 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:16,109 Speaker 1: so therefore don't take a chance. Don't take a risk 386 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: on bringing this person and just do what works basically. 387 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,700 Speaker 1: Get someone that reads like your job description. 388 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:25,230 Speaker 1: Okay, so how do you feel about where you are 389 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,369 Speaker 1: in life now at this stage? Do you feel like 390 00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:29,139 Speaker 1: there is that risk that if I don't, if I 391 00:18:29,140 --> 00:18:32,660 Speaker 1: mess up, then I'm going to lose some opportunities. Okay personally, 392 00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:35,219 Speaker 1: for me, if I were to feel it's alright for 393 00:18:35,220 --> 00:18:37,700 Speaker 1: me to feel because I get the experience but if 394 00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't try it alright I never know what will 395 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,580 Speaker 1: work out for me or let's say the best case 396 00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:44,609 Speaker 1: you know if it works out for me then all 397 00:18:44,609 --> 00:18:46,429 Speaker 1: the more is better for me because I get to 398 00:18:46,430 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: move on to somewhere that can provide me with more benefits. 399 00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:54,510 Speaker 1: But do you feel more pressure as a polytechnic graduate? 400 00:18:54,510 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: Do you feel that compared to some of your colleagues 401 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,300 Speaker 1: there is more pressure on you to perform to do 402 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:01,369 Speaker 1: better too in a way to show that you can 403 00:19:01,369 --> 00:19:03,550 Speaker 1: be just as good as them pressure. I would say 404 00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:07,790 Speaker 1: that is very essential trait that should be in our 405 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,070 Speaker 1: daily life because it gives us the drive to perform 406 00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:14,670 Speaker 1: better because without pressure I'll just do my task without 407 00:19:14,670 --> 00:19:17,050 Speaker 1: any effort. There isn't any aim for me too 408 00:19:17,060 --> 00:19:20,270 Speaker 1: work towards to that's what I think I would rather 409 00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:22,740 Speaker 1: have the pleasure than to feel nothing at all. You 410 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:25,750 Speaker 1: like working under pressure to really you know now we're 411 00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: on the topic of education right? I? T wasn't the 412 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,210 Speaker 1: last place that I stopped learning and we still continue. 413 00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:33,070 Speaker 1: I still went on like of course I got my 414 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:34,990 Speaker 1: degree and all I'm still studying right now. I got 415 00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:38,129 Speaker 1: class later. Okay. Yeah I think the onus falls both 416 00:19:38,130 --> 00:19:40,310 Speaker 1: on the employer and the individual as well because this 417 00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: lifelong learning thing is very important. 418 00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:46,139 Speaker 1: But at the same time if someone wants to be 419 00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:49,790 Speaker 1: a plumber for life, why do we not embrace that? 420 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,470 Speaker 1: We know it's a skilled occupation in other parts of 421 00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:54,750 Speaker 1: the world. They have unions, they have paid a very 422 00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:55,930 Speaker 1: decent salary. 423 00:19:56,330 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: Why can't we do that here By all means? We should, 424 00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:01,250 Speaker 1: we should if you think about the generation that came 425 00:20:01,250 --> 00:20:04,710 Speaker 1: before us because of the place that our nation was 426 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,409 Speaker 1: that you need to be a doctor, you need to 427 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: be an accountant or something along those lines. Then you've 428 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,490 Speaker 1: proven yourself. And yet there is no recognition of handwork. 429 00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:16,790 Speaker 1: This is hard work, this skill work. So yeah, by 430 00:20:16,790 --> 00:20:19,340 Speaker 1: all means we should be recognizing that and obviously the 431 00:20:19,340 --> 00:20:20,210 Speaker 1: individual on the other 432 00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: can be the best plumber that you can be. Not 433 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,109 Speaker 1: not a substandard one that doesn't work, you know? But yeah, 434 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,810 Speaker 1: so I do think there's a meeting of minds, there 435 00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:30,020 Speaker 1: can be change in a day. Probably not. But I 436 00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:33,070 Speaker 1: do think that it's getting to a better place because 437 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: as we go along, you know, even from my generation 438 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: to younger ones, I do think there's acceptance. There's a 439 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: recognition of the amount of hard work that gets put 440 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,010 Speaker 1: into these roles. It's not as easy as it looks 441 00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:49,230 Speaker 1: because I've tried fixing lights at home on my own, 442 00:20:49,369 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: you know trip. The circuit a few times. Got a 443 00:20:51,369 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: big scolding from my wife and then I realized that 444 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: maybe it's just better to hire someone who can do 445 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:56,930 Speaker 1: it properly, you know, 446 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: so it does sound like we've got a big mountain 447 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,690 Speaker 1: to climb and you know, DPM Wong said it's a 448 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:06,740 Speaker 1: fundamental shift, We're asking employers to look at hiring promotion 449 00:21:06,740 --> 00:21:10,970 Speaker 1: training in a different light and to value these occupations 450 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:14,220 Speaker 1: um maybe for Christine. And do you ever feel that 451 00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:17,790 Speaker 1: perhaps your school could have done more to position you 452 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:19,939 Speaker 1: guys better so that when you finish school you would 453 00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:22,619 Speaker 1: be a better place to enter the workforce. Actually, my 454 00:21:22,619 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: school did a lot for us already, I d did 455 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,710 Speaker 1: a lot. They did so much, there's so much 456 00:21:26,990 --> 00:21:31,100 Speaker 1: publicity on the course's there's so much funding from the 457 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:33,660 Speaker 1: Precision Engineering Institute, you know, for the cause that was 458 00:21:33,670 --> 00:21:36,619 Speaker 1: in there were also collaborative partners from Germany who actually 459 00:21:36,619 --> 00:21:38,990 Speaker 1: thought the course, the said that was given to us 460 00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:42,690 Speaker 1: was also endorsed by Germany from a particular state. Right? 461 00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:44,740 Speaker 1: So I think the school did a lot and actually 462 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:46,790 Speaker 1: I'm really thankful to them, so I think they did 463 00:21:46,790 --> 00:21:51,740 Speaker 1: their level, best whatever. Now, doing school times, there's these 464 00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:53,250 Speaker 1: two phases called in 465 00:21:53,330 --> 00:21:56,410 Speaker 1: class and in lab sessions, so in class is mainly 466 00:21:56,410 --> 00:22:00,930 Speaker 1: just the professor's giving us lectures on the critical staff 467 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:04,030 Speaker 1: when it comes to lab, right, we get to apply 468 00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: those stuff that we learn or maybe we are made 469 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,179 Speaker 1: to apply it practically, so I will feel that it's 470 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:12,889 Speaker 1: better for us to have more lab sessions so that 471 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:14,060 Speaker 1: we can understand 472 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:17,310 Speaker 1: in a way better to me. I feel that theoretical 473 00:22:17,310 --> 00:22:21,250 Speaker 1: lessons are just pure hard memorizing and we tend to 474 00:22:21,250 --> 00:22:23,730 Speaker 1: forget it very easily, but when it comes to me 475 00:22:23,730 --> 00:22:27,110 Speaker 1: using my hands, it tends to form like muscle memory, right? 476 00:22:27,109 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: So I just remember it for long, so once I 477 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,270 Speaker 1: have the foundation on a better experience, I will remember 478 00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:36,660 Speaker 1: long enough to apply it in my career. Okay, so 479 00:22:36,660 --> 00:22:39,570 Speaker 1: so more hands on experience, but at the same time, 480 00:22:39,570 --> 00:22:42,500 Speaker 1: the fact that you're going to get a university degree 481 00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: is a shift because in the university obviously is less 482 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: hands on. So you're actually going to a different level 483 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,260 Speaker 1: where you're hoping to perhaps manage someone who will then 484 00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: do the hands on work. Do you feel that we 485 00:22:55,250 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: everyone wants to do that become the manager, but nobody 486 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:58,890 Speaker 1: really wants to be the 487 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,790 Speaker 1: the work on the ground, there will always be someone 488 00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:04,950 Speaker 1: to fulfill the technical role. Then just add to that, 489 00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:08,210 Speaker 1: you know, it's not for everybody, you know, being a 490 00:23:08,210 --> 00:23:09,859 Speaker 1: manager because you don't want to be a manager, you 491 00:23:09,859 --> 00:23:12,179 Speaker 1: probably want to be a leader. She had some good leaders, 492 00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:14,940 Speaker 1: she didn't just a manager that said, you know, do they? 493 00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:17,830 Speaker 1: Let's do this every day, we've seen in our experience 494 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:19,970 Speaker 1: as well in the, in the company there are some 495 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:22,780 Speaker 1: individuals that are more cut out to be the best 496 00:23:22,790 --> 00:23:26,219 Speaker 1: producer of results, you know, the best worker ever, but 497 00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:28,169 Speaker 1: they will never want to and they have raised up 498 00:23:28,170 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: their hands and recognize that they don't want to be managers. 499 00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:34,270 Speaker 1: So like Tyson said, there will be someone for each role. 500 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: It's our responsibility or the employee's responsibility as well to 501 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,660 Speaker 1: identify who is right for which role. And from there 502 00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: you can probably achieve better equality. 503 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,430 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. Let's wrap things up. Just any last words 504 00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:49,580 Speaker 1: from each of you Christine. You can go first. Perhaps, 505 00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: would you change anything if you could hit down this 506 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,100 Speaker 1: path of life again? 507 00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:58,310 Speaker 1: Honestly, no, because I got here and there's more to 508 00:23:58,310 --> 00:24:02,179 Speaker 1: life than just degrees, there's more to life than just studying. 509 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:04,490 Speaker 1: You know, we've got so much of life to live right? 510 00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:08,220 Speaker 1: We've got family, we've got relationships to build and success 511 00:24:08,220 --> 00:24:10,139 Speaker 1: can come in many ways. You know, I'm happy where 512 00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:15,180 Speaker 1: I'm at great. You're still halfway through your journey. What 513 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: is the ultimate goal? I would say that even after 514 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,060 Speaker 1: I completed this work study program, 515 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,450 Speaker 1: I would still choose to embark on another work study 516 00:24:23,450 --> 00:24:26,830 Speaker 1: program because what they provide me is that they drive 517 00:24:26,830 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: down to the specialized modules for me to learn to 518 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,670 Speaker 1: contribute to the organization, which I'm working for. So for 519 00:24:33,670 --> 00:24:36,949 Speaker 1: me to learn those modules right? It only requires me 520 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time and not like those 23 521 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,690 Speaker 1: years type of degree modules. So I would say is 522 00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: very beneficial to me. You sound like a lifelong learning 523 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: kind of guy. Good. The government likes to hear that 524 00:24:49,609 --> 00:24:53,540 Speaker 1: mark, how can we approach this? Maybe looking back on 525 00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:55,629 Speaker 1: my own experience? I think the one thing I picked 526 00:24:55,630 --> 00:24:58,669 Speaker 1: up in my own career is never stopped trying to 527 00:24:58,670 --> 00:25:02,050 Speaker 1: discover what you're passionate about, you never know when, but 528 00:25:02,050 --> 00:25:05,740 Speaker 1: when you do work in that space, because I, like 529 00:25:05,740 --> 00:25:07,990 Speaker 1: I said, I started in finance before moving into this 530 00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:10,150 Speaker 1: role and I'm a lot happier in this role 531 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:13,170 Speaker 1: now if someone can find something along those lines, obviously 532 00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:15,690 Speaker 1: the realist in me says do something that helps you 533 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: survive on a day to day basis, but when you 534 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,290 Speaker 1: do you find that passion, please go after that role 535 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:25,700 Speaker 1: rather than chasing the papers, chasing the certification. Hey, if 536 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: that's your passion, go ahead, you know, but do something 537 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,790 Speaker 1: that you're passionate about, at least that's what I've learned 538 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,590 Speaker 1: in the course of my career. But I think the 539 00:25:32,590 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: challenge here is for the rest of us to look 540 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: at those jobs differently too because 541 00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:38,670 Speaker 1: if your child comes to you or my kid comes 542 00:25:38,670 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: to me and says, I want to be, you know, 543 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,470 Speaker 1: a car mechanic, I'd be like, really I mean, but 544 00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: if he tells me, I want to be a car 545 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: mechanic and eventually own a bunch of companies that fix cars. 546 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,790 Speaker 1: You know, then it's a slightly different approach. So I 547 00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:52,530 Speaker 1: told my dad, I want to be a garbage collector 548 00:25:52,530 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: when I was young. I really thought it was cool 549 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,550 Speaker 1: to stand at the back of one of those. So 550 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,929 Speaker 1: he never fails to tell that story. But I mean 551 00:25:58,930 --> 00:26:01,740 Speaker 1: we have to accept that sure lawyers, doctors, bankers, there'll 552 00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,139 Speaker 1: always be pretty much up there on the pay scale. 553 00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:04,460 Speaker 1: But 554 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,140 Speaker 1: I think when it comes to the other jobs like plumbers, technicians, nurses, 555 00:26:08,150 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: child care teachers, I mean they shouldn't be that far 556 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,500 Speaker 1: off in terms of the pay scale either. It starts 557 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:17,020 Speaker 1: from also the rest of us looking at those jobs 558 00:26:17,020 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: differently and showing respect and appreciation for people in those 559 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,660 Speaker 1: jobs and not just think, you know, you're no good 560 00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:24,820 Speaker 1: and you can't do any better. 561 00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:27,620 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming in guys. It's 562 00:26:27,619 --> 00:26:29,780 Speaker 1: been great chatting with you if you have used to 563 00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:32,030 Speaker 1: share or even suggestions on what you'd like to hear 564 00:26:32,030 --> 00:26:34,130 Speaker 1: on the show. Do drop us a note at C 565 00:26:34,130 --> 00:26:37,310 Speaker 1: N A podcast at dot com dot SG. The team 566 00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:41,180 Speaker 1: behind this podcast is Joanne, chan, Jacqueline chan sai win 567 00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:44,170 Speaker 1: and Christina robert and I'm steven. I'll see you next 568 00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:44,510 Speaker 1: week