WEBVTT - Green hydrogen - getting from pipe dream to a potential fuel for the future 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.210 this 0:00:02.210 --> 0:00:04.080 is the climate conversations and I'm Jamie 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.689 home today. 0:00:06.690 --> 0:00:09.310 I'm talking about the most abundant element in the universe 0:00:09.310 --> 0:00:11.290 and some believe it has a part to play in 0:00:11.289 --> 0:00:15.530 getting us to net zero. It's hydrogen when harnesses the fuel, 0:00:15.530 --> 0:00:18.790 it has the potential to transform our power plants, factories 0:00:18.790 --> 0:00:22.040 and vehicles. Unlike fossil fuels, it emits only water vapor 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.669 when burned. But the catch is that hydrogen is hardly 0:00:24.670 --> 0:00:27.370 found as a pure gas on earth and extracting it 0:00:27.380 --> 0:00:29.760 is not always green nor affordable, 0:00:29.940 --> 0:00:34.159 storing and transporting highly flammable gas is also difficult. 0:00:34.540 --> 0:00:37.710 Despite these challenges, experts say hydrogen can play a significant 0:00:37.710 --> 0:00:40.229 role in that Net zero economy. Even if it takes 0:00:40.229 --> 0:00:42.059 time and money 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:48.510 with me to discuss, this is fredrik, which specializes in 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.440 innovative technologies and lifecycle solutions for the marine and energy 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:53.930 markets Welcome Frederick, 0:00:53.940 --> 0:00:56.320 I'm 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.820 going to jump straight into the first question and you know, 0:00:58.820 --> 0:01:02.680 we've spoken about alternative energies on this podcast series in 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:07.459 several episodes, but hydrogen hasn't been discussed as extensively as 0:01:07.459 --> 0:01:09.729 I would like, partly because I think it has a 0:01:09.730 --> 0:01:12.660 reputation for being tough to harvest, so to speak compared 0:01:12.660 --> 0:01:16.230 to other alternative energies as a start. Perhaps you can 0:01:16.230 --> 0:01:17.460 just run through, 0:01:17.540 --> 0:01:20.520 give us a sense of why, you know, hydrogen is 0:01:20.530 --> 0:01:23.130 maybe even green, hydrogen is a little bit more complicated 0:01:23.130 --> 0:01:24.860 than other clean energy sources. 0:01:25.140 --> 0:01:27.610 Thanks johnny, I'll get into that. And what I'm thinking 0:01:27.610 --> 0:01:30.620 of is maybe I can give a few facts some 0:01:30.620 --> 0:01:33.459 of the basics before trying to answer your question a 0:01:33.459 --> 0:01:36.710 bit more precisely, most of us, we know that hydrogen 0:01:36.709 --> 0:01:39.259 is the most abundant element in the, in the university, 0:01:39.260 --> 0:01:43.380 I think it's about 74% of all elements is hydrogen. 0:01:43.390 --> 0:01:46.930 One of the problem with hydrogen is that on earth, 0:01:46.940 --> 0:01:49.810 hydrogen does not come on its own because it's a 0:01:49.810 --> 0:01:52.809 very reactive elements. It's normally bonded with some of our 0:01:52.810 --> 0:01:57.140 molecules on this planet. We are finding hydrogen mostly in 0:01:57.140 --> 0:02:00.860 water and in hydrocarbons. It means that to be able 0:02:00.860 --> 0:02:04.730 to produce hydrogen, you need to extract these hydrogen atoms 0:02:04.740 --> 0:02:05.960 from the molecules. 0:02:06.140 --> 0:02:09.360 There are currently two ways of doing that. The most 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:13.510 common way right now is reforming and this is when 0:02:13.510 --> 0:02:18.450 you try to extract the hydrogen from the hydrocarbons which 0:02:18.450 --> 0:02:23.579 is fossil fuel. The inconvenient with this process is in 0:02:23.580 --> 0:02:28.700 addition to creating hydrogen, It also releases Sio two. That's 0:02:28.700 --> 0:02:30.650 not something that we want. 0:02:30.940 --> 0:02:34.750 The second way of producing hydrogen is called electrolysis 0:02:35.139 --> 0:02:39.240 and this is producing Ideagen from water using electricity to 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:40.960 make that transformation. 0:02:41.340 --> 0:02:43.990 That's the first part. First you need to be able 0:02:43.990 --> 0:02:47.709 to get this a trojan atom from these molecules where 0:02:47.710 --> 0:02:48.150 it's in 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.230 what may be interesting to know also for our auditors 0:02:52.230 --> 0:02:57.770 today is that there is already quite substantial hydrogen production, 0:02:57.780 --> 0:03:00.919 which is happening, I think it's about 100 million tons 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.059 per year, which is already being produced. This is produced 0:03:04.060 --> 0:03:08.430 right now from this reforming process, so produced from fossil 0:03:08.430 --> 0:03:09.160 fuel 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:14.350 and the uses mostly for refinery processes and also for 0:03:14.350 --> 0:03:19.380 fertilizer production. What's interesting to know is that in this 0:03:19.380 --> 0:03:23.780 case the hydrogen is not used for its energy content 0:03:23.780 --> 0:03:26.940 or as a kind of energy carrier as we are. 0:03:26.950 --> 0:03:30.560 I think right now saying that hydrogen is mostly talked about, 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.929 but it is used for its chemical properties and in 0:03:33.930 --> 0:03:36.820 this case it clearly cannot be replaced by any other 0:03:36.820 --> 0:03:41.130 source of energy. That's why these industries refineries and fertilizer 0:03:41.140 --> 0:03:45.670 producers need really the hydrogen, as I wasn't mentioning, it 0:03:45.670 --> 0:03:48.200 is also a known fact that I'd rogen could be 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:49.960 used as an energy supplier 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.620 that's been talked about for actually quite a long time. 0:03:52.620 --> 0:03:54.560 So it's not a new discussion. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.490 It's been talked about for more than a century. I 0:03:57.490 --> 0:04:02.120 would say, there was even sometimes in the history during 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:06.030 the oil crisis in 1973 where it was really seen 0:04:06.030 --> 0:04:09.640 as potential fuel that could come very soon, but finally 0:04:09.650 --> 0:04:11.260 it has not materialized 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.400 and there are some good reasons for that. I think 0:04:14.410 --> 0:04:18.390 what you were asking about the difficulty of producing, but 0:04:18.390 --> 0:04:23.060 also the economics of hydrogen needed to be right for 0:04:23.060 --> 0:04:26.670 it to compete with the actual for social which is available. 0:04:26.670 --> 0:04:29.400 I have a natural gas o or liquid Schulte. 0:04:29.410 --> 0:04:31.560 Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it sounds as if it 0:04:31.570 --> 0:04:34.969 is a problem of scale of cost and also of 0:04:34.970 --> 0:04:40.349 course of the emissions that are associated with extracting hydrogen itself. Right. Obviously, 0:04:40.350 --> 0:04:43.099 as you say, it's not something new. It's been there 0:04:43.110 --> 0:04:45.250 on the cards for a long time 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.049 and now it's coming back on stream as sort of 0:04:48.050 --> 0:04:52.050 a potential alternative. What do you think are the kinds 0:04:52.060 --> 0:04:54.620 of technological leaps that are going to be necessary? And 0:04:54.620 --> 0:04:57.570 how long is that going to take for hydrogen to 0:04:57.570 --> 0:05:00.720 really be able to be sourced at scale and at 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.760 a cost and at the level of emissions that's going 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.050 to be worthwhile. How long is it gonna take? 0:05:05.140 --> 0:05:05.620 I don't 0:05:05.620 --> 0:05:07.580 really have a crystal ball, but I will, I will 0:05:07.580 --> 0:05:08.760 try to 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.780 give you some elements that maybe can answer your question. 0:05:11.790 --> 0:05:15.250 The first part is about how can green hydrogen, because 0:05:15.260 --> 0:05:18.180 we are talking in this case of green hydrogen, which 0:05:18.180 --> 0:05:23.409 is hydrogen generated for this electrolysis process and when the 0:05:23.410 --> 0:05:29.060 electricity to produce hydrogen electrolysis process is produced from renewable energy, 0:05:29.070 --> 0:05:31.960 because that's really what people are looking for 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:34.799 because in this case, as you rightly mentioned then, you 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.720 can really see that there is a net zero effect, 0:05:37.730 --> 0:05:40.640 There is no C 02 emission at the same time. So, 0:05:40.650 --> 0:05:43.070 we are really talking talking about that, how to get 0:05:43.070 --> 0:05:47.110 to a point where green hydrogen can be a competitive fuel. 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:48.150 There are three 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.710 factors actually influencing the price of green hydrogen. The first 0:05:51.710 --> 0:05:52.250 one 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.170 Is of course the price of electricity because you need 0:05:55.170 --> 0:06:00.970 electricity to produce hydrogen and you are doing it from renewables. 0:06:00.980 --> 0:06:05.660 The long term projection is still that renewable electricity price 0:06:05.670 --> 0:06:09.719 will come down. We see the prices of solar and 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.910 wind coming down for instance already in the last 20 years. 0:06:12.910 --> 0:06:15.960 And this is already creating what we call the energy transition. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.479 But we see that this will keep on unfolding. Maybe 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.729 not at the same rate, but still should be coming 0:06:21.730 --> 0:06:23.679 down in the long run. So that will help in 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.089 the production cost. We also expect that if the right 0:06:27.089 --> 0:06:29.680 policies are there at the same time, there could be 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.610 a scale effect. And then the price of the electrolyzer 0:06:32.610 --> 0:06:33.160 itself 0:06:33.339 --> 0:06:36.960 will be able to come down. And the last point is, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.849 once you have electricity, once you have your electrolyzer, 0:06:39.940 --> 0:06:42.529 you need to ensure that the electrolyzer is used at 0:06:42.529 --> 0:06:46.580 maximum capacity is what we call capacity factor. So planning 0:06:46.589 --> 0:06:50.190 how the electrolyzer will be used most efficiently is going 0:06:50.190 --> 0:06:52.790 to be important because I think we should not forget 0:06:52.790 --> 0:06:55.910 that for green hydrogen to make sense. It should use 0:06:55.910 --> 0:06:59.220 renewable energy. Yes, but actually it should use excess renewable 0:06:59.220 --> 0:06:59.950 energy 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.890 the best way for the planet to be able to reach. 0:07:02.890 --> 0:07:06.779 The next Ceo target is first to use renewable as 0:07:06.779 --> 0:07:10.770 directly as possible generating electricity when possible. And then if 0:07:10.770 --> 0:07:14.190 you have access, then you can think of producing fields 0:07:14.190 --> 0:07:16.120 like green hydrogen. Those 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.470 are really excellent points. And I caught on and and 0:07:19.470 --> 0:07:22.260 I do know that we're talking about green hydrogen now. 0:07:22.270 --> 0:07:23.180 But maybe this is a good 0:07:23.180 --> 0:07:26.200 time as well to talk about other colors that have 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:30.300 been associated with hydrogen most commonly blue and gray explained 0:07:30.300 --> 0:07:32.850 to us what the differences are and and how these 0:07:32.850 --> 0:07:36.230 features into the role that hydrogen can play overall 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.700 there's a rainbow of almost of hydrogen that people are 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:44.360 talking about the most common forms or colors of hydrogen green. 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.890 I think I've already explained that part, the gray hydrogen 0:07:47.900 --> 0:07:51.960 is hydrogen which is produced through this reforming process, 0:07:52.140 --> 0:07:56.750 meaning that you are using hydrocarbons as the feedstock for 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:01.160 producing the hydrogen. And in this case the process is 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.760 releasing Sio two and with great hydrogen, you are not 0:08:04.770 --> 0:08:08.200 capturing and using the C. 02. So you just released 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.470 Ceo to India, which is not ideal. Blue hydrogen is 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:17.830 still using hydrocarbons as the feedstock for producing hydrogen. But 0:08:17.830 --> 0:08:21.310 in this case there is a system and process in 0:08:21.310 --> 0:08:24.420 place to capture the C. 02 which is produced through 0:08:24.420 --> 0:08:29.000 the process and try to either store the Ceo to 0:08:29.010 --> 0:08:30.450 bury it for instance, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.910 or reuse the CEO to in some of our processes. 0:08:33.910 --> 0:08:37.550 So this is a better, more efficient and also, especially 0:08:37.550 --> 0:08:42.210 more environmentally friendly way to produce hydrogen. There are some 0:08:42.210 --> 0:08:45.690 other colors that people are talking about for instance, being hydrogen, 0:08:45.700 --> 0:08:50.360 which is hydrogen produced in this case from electrolysis, but 0:08:50.370 --> 0:08:53.550 with nuclear energy for instance. So there is a very 0:08:53.550 --> 0:08:54.760 wide variety area 0:08:55.140 --> 0:08:58.459 that's interesting. So, I mean most hydrogen now that's been 0:08:58.460 --> 0:09:02.080 processed is presumably gray. So as we sort of look 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.760 into the various options, is it necessarily always going to 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.030 be progressive in that you have gray, then you need 0:09:09.030 --> 0:09:11.550 to move into blue first and then you trans transition 0:09:11.550 --> 0:09:13.750 more and more into green Or are there sort of 0:09:13.750 --> 0:09:18.020 technological leaps that can actually move us very quickly from 0:09:18.030 --> 0:09:21.440 potentially gray to green? Or is that sort of also 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.660 contingent on developments in alternative energies elsewhere? 0:09:25.140 --> 0:09:28.420 That's the evolution you see going from gray to blue 0:09:28.420 --> 0:09:31.339 and then from blue to green at what pace is 0:09:31.340 --> 0:09:32.550 that going to happen? 0:09:32.940 --> 0:09:36.760 There is no consensus really in the industry, what we 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:43.000 feel is that economically speaking, blue hydrogen for instance, should 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:47.459 remain cheaper than green hydrogen for the next maybe 10 years. 0:09:47.470 --> 0:09:50.610 But after this, we feel that there are some places, 0:09:50.610 --> 0:09:53.760 some countries which should be able to produce 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.000 green hydrogen at a cheaper cost than blue hydrogen and 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.320 in this case it will be the snowball effect in 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.189 terms of demon and also in terms of price reduction 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.630 and then a green hydrogen should be the fuel of 0:10:05.630 --> 0:10:07.089 choice at this time we'll 0:10:07.090 --> 0:10:08.580 take a quick break and be right 0:10:08.580 --> 0:10:12.530 back. So climate 0:10:12.530 --> 0:10:17.790 conversations, podcast is supported by Sabrina jerome building cities shaping lives. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:22.560 So would you say that therefore that you would expect 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.160 most of the action or the 0:10:25.540 --> 0:10:29.709 technological advances and the leaps forward to come from places 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.500 that are moving much faster on renewable energies. Therefore right 0:10:33.510 --> 0:10:36.930 and therefore lowering the price of those renewable energies and 0:10:36.929 --> 0:10:40.680 then allowing for hydrogen to be deployed, they're much more 0:10:40.690 --> 0:10:43.559 cheaply in the longer term. So is that where it's 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.460 all going to be? And if that's the case 0:10:45.740 --> 0:10:46.350 bringing back 0:10:46.350 --> 0:10:49.020 to Singapore, what's the role of a place like Singapore 0:10:49.020 --> 0:10:51.050 in helping with the technological advances? 0:10:51.140 --> 0:10:54.760 That's a good question. I'll try to answer it in 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.780 two different times. The first one, I think you're spot 0:10:57.780 --> 0:11:02.600 on countries which have already invested a lot in renewables 0:11:02.610 --> 0:11:07.250 should be the country's coming first with solutions in terms 0:11:07.250 --> 0:11:09.260 of green hydrogen production. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.929 This can be countries like Germany, I think we all 0:11:12.929 --> 0:11:16.640 know that Germany is really leading the way in promoting 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.880 the use of hydrogen in in the future. Also cases 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.010 like Australia, I think in front, but just because they 0:11:23.010 --> 0:11:27.439 are already in front, also in terms of renewable energy usage, 0:11:27.450 --> 0:11:30.260 maybe two to link it back. Also to what I 0:11:30.260 --> 0:11:33.560 was saying earlier, even if in the next 10 years, 0:11:33.740 --> 0:11:39.689 the blue hydrogen might be slightly more economical than green hydrogen. 0:11:39.700 --> 0:11:42.090 It doesn't mean that nothing should happen on the green 0:11:42.090 --> 0:11:44.960 hydrogen side. And that's what also these countries 0:11:45.140 --> 0:11:50.550 like Australia or Germany are doing a lot to promote. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:56.330 Already some policies that are encouraging investments, pilot projects because 0:11:56.340 --> 0:11:58.580 the next 10 years need to be a time where 0:11:58.590 --> 0:12:02.660 we are validating technologies in terms of storage in terms 0:12:02.660 --> 0:12:06.190 of transportation in terms of production of the androgen, but 0:12:06.190 --> 0:12:08.530 also in terms of the use of the hydrogen in 0:12:08.530 --> 0:12:10.160 the different potential industry, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.250 there will be a number of parameters later on that 0:12:13.250 --> 0:12:17.210 will decide which industry would be able to use the 0:12:17.210 --> 0:12:20.350 hydrogen first. When is it going to be relevant for 0:12:20.350 --> 0:12:22.520 this or that industry to use this? And that will 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.050 be the same question I would say for Singapore. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.960 Would the hydrogen makes sense to be used for power 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:33.420 generation at some point for maybe air conditioning, Would it 0:12:33.420 --> 0:12:37.199 be used for aircraft? Would it be used for busses? 0:12:37.210 --> 0:12:39.810 There are a number of parameters which are there. What 0:12:39.809 --> 0:12:43.350 is pretty unique to Singapore? Is that 0:12:43.540 --> 0:12:46.750 Singapore is at the same time 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.090 of course, a place where with quite sizable population and 0:12:50.090 --> 0:12:52.780 where there is demand for energy, but it's already a 0:12:52.780 --> 0:12:55.880 energy up in a way. You have a big petrochemical 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.719 complex in Jurong Island and also it is a shipping hub. 0:13:00.730 --> 0:13:03.600 It's it's one of the biggest ports in the world. 0:13:03.610 --> 0:13:07.410 And there could be a lot of synergies between different 0:13:07.410 --> 0:13:12.210 sectors between the petrochemical industry. As I was explaining, refineries 0:13:12.210 --> 0:13:16.350 are big consumers of hydrogen power generation can be a 0:13:16.350 --> 0:13:20.329 consumer of hydrogen at least for what we call balancing 0:13:20.330 --> 0:13:22.560 power because the first source of power 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.500 ideally in the future is still going to be renewable, 0:13:25.500 --> 0:13:28.970 but you could still use hydrogen for balancing uh, some 0:13:28.970 --> 0:13:31.550 of these intermittent, see with the renewable 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.440 but also for the shipping industry, we know that this 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.410 is an industry that really has some targets in terms 0:13:37.410 --> 0:13:42.979 of emission reduction and they would be also potentially capable 0:13:42.980 --> 0:13:47.060 of using hydrogen maybe not in the hydrogen form, it 0:13:47.059 --> 0:13:50.460 might be in a different form where you associate again 0:13:50.470 --> 0:13:52.030 hydrogen with some of the 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.860 components to make the transportation easier. It can be like ammonia, 0:13:55.870 --> 0:13:59.120 but for Singapore, it will be important to have all 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.579 these different sectors to talk together and try to plant 0:14:02.580 --> 0:14:04.850 some infrastructure that could benefit or 0:14:05.540 --> 0:14:08.959 using against Singapore as sort of the hook to ask 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.630 my next question. Obviously we import a lot of our energy. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.460 So if we're looking at that, that then brings into 0:14:15.460 --> 0:14:20.310 question the viability of transportation of hydrogen give us a 0:14:20.310 --> 0:14:23.170 sense as well how easy difficult it is and how 0:14:23.170 --> 0:14:24.860 different it is when it comes to 0:14:24.940 --> 0:14:26.720 transporting and moving hydrogen. 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.140 People are used to talking about Lng solar, what's different 0:14:31.140 --> 0:14:33.140 about it when it comes to hydrogen and moving it 0:14:33.140 --> 0:14:34.260 from one place to another. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.650 Hydrogen is different from a natural gas. It has some 0:14:37.650 --> 0:14:42.310 advantages because hydrogen per kg is containing a lot of energy, 0:14:42.310 --> 0:14:46.240 but the density of hydrogen is actually very low, which 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.590 means in practice is for instance, if you compare compressed 0:14:50.590 --> 0:14:54.050 natural gas to compress hydrogen, 0:14:54.140 --> 0:14:55.360 it takes about 0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.930 3 to 4 time the volume to get the same 0:14:58.930 --> 0:15:02.400 amount of energy with hydrogen. You can imagine that this 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:04.990 is a challenge in terms of transportation. Instead of having 0:15:04.990 --> 0:15:08.090 one LNG carrier. For instance, you would need 3 to 0:15:08.090 --> 0:15:11.160 4 to bring the same volume of energy. Also, what's 0:15:11.170 --> 0:15:14.550 a bit tricky with hydrogen when you want to transport 0:15:14.550 --> 0:15:16.050 it by sea for instance, 0:15:16.140 --> 0:15:19.869 Is that the temperature at which you can get it 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:24.310 under the liquid form is very low. It's a -250° 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.920 compared to natural gas, which is about 160°. So it 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.340 also requires more energy and you can have quite a 0:15:31.340 --> 0:15:31.950 lot of 0:15:32.140 --> 0:15:36.670 Energy losses in this process either by compressing or turning 0:15:36.670 --> 0:15:40.790 into liquid that can be quite inefficient in some cases. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.870 One way of transporting aborigine, which is quite efficient is 0:15:44.870 --> 0:15:49.310 by a pipeline because even if the what with this 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:54.150 energy density is different with with H2, the advantages the 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.250 flow of H2 in pipelines is actually faster 0:15:57.340 --> 0:16:00.850 the natural gas. Just because this molecule is so like 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:04.520 that can be a more efficient way. So some countries 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.250 will have the advantage to have the energy, the green 0:16:08.250 --> 0:16:11.630 hydrogen production close to the point of demand and can 0:16:11.630 --> 0:16:14.720 just use pipeline, in which case it can become pretty 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.840 efficient very quickly. Some of our countries will have the 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:18.850 disadvantage 0:16:18.940 --> 0:16:23.210 not having maybe the renewable energy production in their own place, 0:16:23.220 --> 0:16:26.780 then they will need to compress liquefy sending the gas 0:16:26.780 --> 0:16:28.360 so that can become more expensive 0:16:28.540 --> 0:16:31.200 for Singapore. We know that the challenge. I think the 0:16:31.210 --> 0:16:31.860 biggest 0:16:32.340 --> 0:16:35.250 for me, my recommendation for Singapore is first to not 0:16:35.250 --> 0:16:37.380 be focused on the nitrogen. We need to have a 0:16:37.380 --> 0:16:41.510 plan for Net 0 2050. And there are many ways 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.220 to achieve this decarbonization? Probably H two for me will 0:16:46.220 --> 0:16:48.790 play a role. It might be the final push in 0:16:48.790 --> 0:16:49.560 getting there. 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.490 But the most important is to have an overall plan. 0:16:52.500 --> 0:16:54.950 And then part of this plan first is how do 0:16:54.950 --> 0:16:57.800 you get your renewable energy in Singapore? Is it going 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.640 to be produced on our small island or are we 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.960 going to do a little bit as E. M. A. 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:08.460 Is exploring maybe procuring from Malaysia, maybe for curing from Indonesia. 0:17:08.470 --> 0:17:10.760 And then if we do that, then can we do 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.850 maybe the conversion of renewable electricity 0:17:14.580 --> 0:17:16.580 island that could be a possibility to 0:17:16.590 --> 0:17:19.699 use your own experience as a way to sort of 0:17:19.700 --> 0:17:21.050 cap off our conversation, 0:17:21.060 --> 0:17:22.129 you've been doing 0:17:22.140 --> 0:17:25.890 this for several years already with Godzilla as you look 0:17:25.890 --> 0:17:28.360 into the future therefore. And you did mention sort of 0:17:28.369 --> 0:17:31.810 time frames of, you know, at least 10 years and 0:17:31.810 --> 0:17:35.570 obviously for different sort of jurisdictions different countries, the role 0:17:35.570 --> 0:17:38.360 that hydrogen is going to play, It's gonna vary. But 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.230 in terms of the technology that at least that is 0:17:41.230 --> 0:17:44.920 going to be allowing countries who can scale it to 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.720 an efficient enough level, what kind of timelines would you say? 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.130 You know, looking at what's happened in the last five years? 0:17:51.140 --> 0:17:55.010 Is it moving in a sufficiently progressive way? Or is 0:17:55.010 --> 0:17:59.180 it still sort of linked really to other breakthroughs elsewhere 0:17:59.190 --> 0:18:02.900 in terms of the cost of alternative energy overall then, 0:18:02.910 --> 0:18:05.320 do you see it being a big part of it 0:18:05.330 --> 0:18:07.170 or is it really a final push kind of thing 0:18:07.170 --> 0:18:07.870 as you mentioned. 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.030 Okay, first of all, in terms of the, as I 0:18:10.030 --> 0:18:15.770 was mentioning, we see green hydrogen probably displacing blue hydrogen 0:18:15.940 --> 0:18:18.550 in the next 10 years. That because it will become 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.540 more economical than blue hydrogen, but it will still not 0:18:22.540 --> 0:18:27.240 probably be cheaper than natural gas, it will probably just 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.930 replace the use really for chemical process where you need 0:18:29.930 --> 0:18:33.120 the molecule to form some other products like ammonia for 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.960 fertilizers or in the refinery process, they're using hydrogen for 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.790 this authorization to be able to remove the sulfur from 0:18:39.790 --> 0:18:41.050 the idol cabinets. So 0:18:41.140 --> 0:18:43.740 Beyond that, you still need to have the costs keep 0:18:43.740 --> 0:18:45.840 on coming down so that it can really compete with 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.590 natural gas and that's when things can accelerate and that 0:18:48.590 --> 0:18:52.230 might still take many more years after this. Some countries 0:18:52.230 --> 0:18:54.959 will be in a better place. It will also depends 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.260 on the, on the countries, some countries have access to 0:18:57.260 --> 0:19:00.730 cheap gas, some countries have access to expensive gas and 0:19:00.730 --> 0:19:03.890 when they will start to adopt green hydrogen might be different. 0:19:03.890 --> 0:19:07.090 So it's possible that it might take on over 10 0:19:07.090 --> 0:19:09.750 years after that for green age to to start to 0:19:09.750 --> 0:19:11.770 be competitive with natural gas. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.480 That's why we see more seed. Like it's almost a 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:20.110 final push. But if we don't start now, we will 0:19:20.109 --> 0:19:22.310 not get them and when I mean if we don't 0:19:22.310 --> 0:19:25.630 start now, it's these are companies like us. We are 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.960 providing technologies so it can be different technologies 0:19:29.340 --> 0:19:32.430 electrolyzer for us in the back still a case its 0:19:32.430 --> 0:19:35.840 power generation equipment. We want to have our equipment which 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.430 is future proof so that we are going to be 0:19:38.430 --> 0:19:41.990 able to use hydrogen in our equipment as a as 0:19:41.990 --> 0:19:45.370 a fuel. And we are doing that. Governments are coming 0:19:45.369 --> 0:19:49.000 with policy with targets in terms of emission reduction because 0:19:49.010 --> 0:19:53.010 of course the economics of hydrogen is not everything if 0:19:53.010 --> 0:19:56.580 really there are policies that are forcing people whatever the 0:19:56.580 --> 0:19:59.310 price is to adopt hydrogen that could come faster. So 0:19:59.310 --> 0:20:01.659 it's going to be a mixed back depending on the 0:20:01.660 --> 0:20:07.190 countries but having targets encouraging technology development and for instance, 0:20:07.190 --> 0:20:09.340 I can say that in Singapore. This is already happening 0:20:09.350 --> 0:20:13.119 because we are doing currently a project with capable of 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.619 shore and marine for instance where capable of showing marine 0:20:16.630 --> 0:20:19.750 is getting a grant from the E. M. A. As 0:20:19.750 --> 0:20:22.699 a research project to build what they call a floating 0:20:22.710 --> 0:20:25.960 living lab. And on this floating living lab they will 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.770 have different technologies, they will have battery storage but they 0:20:28.770 --> 0:20:31.450 will also have some of our that's still a power 0:20:31.450 --> 0:20:32.550 generation equipment 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.870 in which we are already planning to blend natural gas 0:20:36.869 --> 0:20:41.170 and hydrogen with a support percentage just to validate the 0:20:41.180 --> 0:20:45.969 technology get used with the technology and also help Singapore 0:20:45.970 --> 0:20:49.159 come with a better understanding of these Children. 0:20:49.740 --> 0:20:53.750 Well, Frederick certainly sounds as if everyone is on the 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.439 right track right now. That's certainly my hope that everything 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.540 is being done now. So that when the time comes 0:20:58.550 --> 0:21:01.810 for the final push, the technology is already, it's been 0:21:01.810 --> 0:21:04.060 a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much. 0:21:04.070 --> 0:21:05.270 Thanks a lot for your time 0:21:05.940 --> 0:21:10.850 and thanks for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up 0:21:10.850 --> 0:21:13.510 to date on CNN's coverage of climate change on sienna 0:21:13.510 --> 0:21:16.350 dot asia. You can also find this and other CNN 0:21:16.350 --> 0:21:19.650 podcasts on our website and on itunes and Spotify. The 0:21:19.650 --> 0:21:22.840 team behind this podcast are Christina, robert lynch tooling and 0:21:22.850 --> 0:21:25.560 Aaron Low. I'm Jamie Hotel next week. 0:21:26.030 --> 0:21:26.250 Yeah.