1 00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:04,710 Speaker 1: Oh my God. I hate my career. I hate my 2 00:00:04,719 --> 00:00:07,550 Speaker 1: job and like life is too short, right? You hate 3 00:00:07,559 --> 00:00:10,189 Speaker 1: like almost like 70% of your waking hours. Like, what's 4 00:00:10,199 --> 00:00:12,329 Speaker 1: the point? I guess there was always a part of 5 00:00:12,340 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: me that then for that year after felt really quite 6 00:00:16,370 --> 00:00:20,739 Speaker 1: bitter and a little bit. I would say empty. 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the hot pot where we 8 00:00:29,530 --> 00:00:32,409 Speaker 2: hop into different parts of spaces people find themselves in 9 00:00:32,418 --> 00:00:36,110 Speaker 2: during life's transitions. I'm Joey. I'm Q, I'm Nick and 10 00:00:36,119 --> 00:00:39,458 Speaker 2: today's episode is a very interesting one we have here today. 11 00:00:39,470 --> 00:00:43,099 Speaker 2: The CEO of Love Bonito. Do you want song? 12 00:00:43,959 --> 00:00:46,610 Speaker 2: Thank you. And Dion is here today to tell us 13 00:00:46,619 --> 00:00:48,209 Speaker 2: a bit more about what it's like to lead a 14 00:00:48,220 --> 00:00:51,979 Speaker 2: homegrown brand. Its ups its downs and how to achieve 15 00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:57,189 Speaker 2: the ever elusive work. Life balance, ever elusive. Also, I 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,669 Speaker 2: just want to say a cute outfit. Cute outfit too. Thanks. 17 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:07,150 Speaker 2: It's from Oh my God. Oh my God. I love that. Ok. 18 00:01:07,349 --> 00:01:08,900 Speaker 2: Maybe you want to introduce yourself a little bit. 19 00:01:08,910 --> 00:01:13,300 Speaker 1: Sure. I'm Dion CEO at Love Bonito. And 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,139 Speaker 1: what else should I do an age job 21 00:01:16,269 --> 00:01:16,290 Speaker 2: you 22 00:01:16,790 --> 00:01:19,069 Speaker 2: want? To do an age, you want to do an 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:19,699 Speaker 2: age job? 24 00:01:19,709 --> 00:01:22,510 Speaker 1: Ok. I'm 36 this year. 25 00:01:23,230 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 2: Drop your skincare routine. Is it because you got very 26 00:01:25,650 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: good work life? Yeah, I 27 00:01:27,010 --> 00:01:28,929 Speaker 1: know. Right. Yeah, maybe. But 28 00:01:28,940 --> 00:01:29,559 Speaker 2: we will 29 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:30,500 Speaker 1: discuss that 30 00:01:30,510 --> 00:01:31,139 Speaker 2: later. 31 00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:33,620 Speaker 2: But tell us a bit more about your back story. 32 00:01:33,629 --> 00:01:37,149 Speaker 2: Tell us about your journey to where you are now professionally. 33 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Well, TLDR, I mean, I met Rage co founder at 34 00:01:40,370 --> 00:01:41,139 Speaker 1: LB 35 00:01:41,569 --> 00:01:43,900 Speaker 1: at a women's networking event. So like, hey, I guess 36 00:01:43,910 --> 00:01:46,690 Speaker 1: like women's networking events actually do work, right? And you 37 00:01:46,699 --> 00:01:49,910 Speaker 1: can make actually quite meaningful connections. And back then I 38 00:01:49,919 --> 00:01:52,839 Speaker 1: was with a beauty MNC, right? And I think I 39 00:01:52,849 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: felt back then in my career, that was what now, 40 00:01:55,830 --> 00:01:58,650 Speaker 1: eight years ago, I felt like a cock in the wheel, right? 41 00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:00,959 Speaker 1: I think back then, like, you know, I think it 42 00:02:00,970 --> 00:02:04,389 Speaker 1: wasn't that maybe as fulfilling, right? And you're wondering what's 43 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,110 Speaker 1: my purpose, right? End of the day or like, oh, 44 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:07,269 Speaker 1: what's my icky guy? 45 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:09,750 Speaker 1: And I was like, hey, right. I think maybe to 46 00:02:09,758 --> 00:02:15,579 Speaker 1: make also more impact being also in a local homegrown brand, right? 47 00:02:15,589 --> 00:02:18,008 Speaker 1: In a smaller outfit. Also, you can make a lot 48 00:02:18,020 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: more changes, right? And it's, and it's more meaningful in 49 00:02:20,970 --> 00:02:23,300 Speaker 1: that sense. Yeah, so I met R and then, yeah, 50 00:02:23,309 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: I think 51 00:02:23,684 --> 00:02:25,744 Speaker 1: one day she asked, hey, you know, have you considered 52 00:02:25,755 --> 00:02:29,274 Speaker 1: sort of like be joining us? And I joined LB 53 00:02:29,285 --> 00:02:32,975 Speaker 1: as the first, not a CEO as a first c 54 00:02:32,985 --> 00:02:35,914 Speaker 1: level exec. And then, yeah, that was, that was how 55 00:02:35,925 --> 00:02:36,625 Speaker 1: it started. 56 00:02:37,005 --> 00:02:39,225 Speaker 2: I will find my way into a women's network. 57 00:02:41,649 --> 00:02:42,389 Speaker 2: Be hard. Ah, 58 00:02:44,538 --> 00:02:46,149 Speaker 2: I'm curious. Do you come from a fashion 59 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: background? 60 00:02:46,929 --> 00:02:48,199 Speaker 1: No, a business background. 61 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,288 Speaker 2: Ok. But then you always fashionable. And 62 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:54,059 Speaker 1: I like to think I have decent taste. 63 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:55,019 Speaker 2: No, I love it. It's so, 64 00:02:55,669 --> 00:03:00,139 Speaker 2: since you're such a girl boss of this homegrown brand. Right. 65 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:02,419 Speaker 2: How is your work life balance. Actually, 66 00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:05,619 Speaker 2: I quite a lot 67 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:09,149 Speaker 1: over the I've been now at seven years, 68 00:03:10,110 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: I work quite a lot. To be honest. I think 69 00:03:12,929 --> 00:03:14,830 Speaker 1: in the first couple of years I had probably hustle 70 00:03:14,839 --> 00:03:17,429 Speaker 1: and put in maybe too many hours. Maybe I also 71 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: didn't draw my boundaries also for myself that well, even 72 00:03:22,089 --> 00:03:24,220 Speaker 1: as a boss, right? Of course, I think you can 73 00:03:24,229 --> 00:03:27,910 Speaker 1: feel sort of like burnt up. Then I told myself 74 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,759 Speaker 1: that whatever your non negotiables, then non negotiables, right? Like 75 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:34,919 Speaker 1: for me, like even on a weekday, like having time also, right? 76 00:03:34,929 --> 00:03:37,020 Speaker 1: Even to go out friends like have dinners and stuff, right? 77 00:03:37,029 --> 00:03:37,220 Speaker 1: And like 78 00:03:37,330 --> 00:03:41,229 Speaker 1: truly disconnect be present, disconnect. Don't check your phone, right? 79 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 1: Don't feel the urge to reply something. I mean for 80 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:45,869 Speaker 1: me also, family time is super important, right? Because my 81 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,919 Speaker 1: mom is also alone now. So like Sunday is non negotiable. 82 00:03:48,929 --> 00:03:51,229 Speaker 1: It's always family day. Yeah. So I think just having 83 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,550 Speaker 1: clear like clear boundaries, 84 00:03:53,559 --> 00:03:54,279 Speaker 2: right? Yeah, 85 00:03:54,539 --> 00:03:56,889 Speaker 2: before we dive too deep into the topic, right? What 86 00:03:56,899 --> 00:03:59,610 Speaker 2: is work life balance to all of you define it 87 00:03:59,619 --> 00:04:02,029 Speaker 2: for us. I think I got terrible work life balance. 88 00:04:02,199 --> 00:04:04,669 Speaker 2: I always try to, I try like 89 00:04:04,970 --> 00:04:08,509 Speaker 2: then for like 23 weeks stretch, I'll be like, yeah, 90 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,949 Speaker 2: not bad. Then I will slowly fall back into the 91 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,630 Speaker 2: pattern of just like, even when I'm not actively like 92 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: sitting at my desk and like, like doing stuff. I 93 00:04:17,928 --> 00:04:20,690 Speaker 2: am just like, you cannot switch off. I can't switch 94 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:24,299 Speaker 2: off tomorrow. I have this meeting. I have like this meeting, 95 00:04:24,309 --> 00:04:25,869 Speaker 2: I need to sort this out. Does it keep you 96 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 2: up at night sometimes? Yeah, but sometimes it's really like, 97 00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:31,019 Speaker 2: I think I I'm so exhausted then I just do 98 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,029 Speaker 2: you never answer the question 99 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,049 Speaker 2: how to define what life balance? I mean, I think 100 00:04:36,059 --> 00:04:39,070 Speaker 2: if you feel that like I told you before, I 101 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:40,709 Speaker 2: look at my life as a pie chart 102 00:04:41,250 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 2: so I try to quantify it. Work takes up more 103 00:04:43,809 --> 00:04:46,730 Speaker 2: than 60% of that pie chart. Such that like every 104 00:04:46,738 --> 00:04:50,049 Speaker 2: other slice is starting to shrink, then you don't have 105 00:04:50,059 --> 00:04:52,559 Speaker 2: work life balance. But I think if you can maintain 106 00:04:52,570 --> 00:04:56,260 Speaker 2: like at my age now, I feel like a 60% work, 40%. 107 00:04:56,269 --> 00:04:59,619 Speaker 2: Everything else is quite, I'm happy with that. La Yeah, 108 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,539 Speaker 2: Joey as a freelancer who does everything doesn't exist. I 109 00:05:04,549 --> 00:05:08,540 Speaker 2: have work, work and life life balance. So like sometimes 110 00:05:08,615 --> 00:05:11,966 Speaker 2: I work super hard and sometimes I life super hard. 111 00:05:12,045 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: I find it very hard to have a day where 112 00:05:14,165 --> 00:05:17,085 Speaker 2: it's half work, half life. Somehow my work is my 113 00:05:17,096 --> 00:05:19,156 Speaker 2: life and my life is my work. But I'm very 114 00:05:19,165 --> 00:05:21,715 Speaker 2: happy and fortunate to be in a space where I 115 00:05:21,726 --> 00:05:25,325 Speaker 2: could be groaning about work by lying in bed on 116 00:05:25,335 --> 00:05:28,536 Speaker 2: my phone, editing or writing an email in bed. I 117 00:05:28,545 --> 00:05:31,186 Speaker 2: know a lot of friends who actually because of the 118 00:05:31,196 --> 00:05:34,006 Speaker 2: work from home system, they find it harder to have 119 00:05:34,015 --> 00:05:35,996 Speaker 2: a balance because your bed is behind you 120 00:05:36,421 --> 00:05:37,921 Speaker 2: and your work is here, then you just need to 121 00:05:37,932 --> 00:05:40,212 Speaker 2: bring your laptop to your bed and then suddenly all 122 00:05:40,221 --> 00:05:43,731 Speaker 2: these lines get very blurry and you don't know what is, what, 123 00:05:43,742 --> 00:05:46,351 Speaker 2: what is life anymore? And then the worst is when 124 00:05:46,361 --> 00:05:49,532 Speaker 2: you bring your laptop when it's night time, like 10 p.m. 125 00:05:49,541 --> 00:05:52,451 Speaker 2: and you're still churning out the emails or planning some 126 00:05:52,462 --> 00:05:55,821 Speaker 2: stuff when you're supposed to be sleeping. Yeah. So I 127 00:05:55,832 --> 00:05:59,182 Speaker 2: find that I, I don't really have a balance but 128 00:05:59,261 --> 00:06:02,570 Speaker 2: it hasn't caused me to burn out just yet because 129 00:06:02,582 --> 00:06:03,411 Speaker 2: I know how to. 130 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:04,890 Speaker 2: So, you know, when I need 131 00:06:04,899 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: to, I used to never define work life balance. I mean, 132 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:10,470 Speaker 1: I like to think about work life integration. 133 00:06:11,010 --> 00:06:12,130 Speaker 2: Wow. I love 134 00:06:12,140 --> 00:06:15,489 Speaker 2: that from now on I'm using that integration is not bad, 135 00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:15,700 Speaker 2: but 136 00:06:15,709 --> 00:06:15,988 Speaker 1: I used to 137 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,220 Speaker 1: think about it like, hey, work life integration, right? If 138 00:06:18,230 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: you love what you're doing, 139 00:06:19,730 --> 00:06:23,578 Speaker 1: right? Uh For work, right? Which is also your life, right? 140 00:06:23,589 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: The intersections are really honestly, quite great and very passionate 141 00:06:27,928 --> 00:06:30,209 Speaker 1: what you're doing, you enjoy all the time, then it's 142 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:32,959 Speaker 1: fun if you can bring your true, like, real self 143 00:06:32,970 --> 00:06:36,789 Speaker 1: right into your workplace or environment and day to day, 144 00:06:36,799 --> 00:06:39,709 Speaker 1: that's ok. Right. And maybe different seasons of life also, 145 00:06:40,010 --> 00:06:42,679 Speaker 1: you have different priorities, right? And sort of like focus 146 00:06:42,690 --> 00:06:45,118 Speaker 1: in that pie chart changes over time. 147 00:06:45,130 --> 00:06:45,670 Speaker 2: I never 148 00:06:45,678 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: thought about that because I feel 149 00:06:46,863 --> 00:06:48,575 Speaker 2: like for a lot of us we pour a lot 150 00:06:48,584 --> 00:06:51,144 Speaker 2: of who we are in our personalities in our work. 151 00:06:51,154 --> 00:06:53,774 Speaker 2: But there are some people who they are very different 152 00:06:53,785 --> 00:06:56,075 Speaker 2: at work and they are very different as a person. 153 00:06:56,214 --> 00:06:58,303 Speaker 2: And once they clock out, they really clock out from 154 00:06:58,315 --> 00:07:01,125 Speaker 2: their personality as well. They are totally different person. So 155 00:07:01,135 --> 00:07:04,553 Speaker 2: it's easy to have that separation. Whereas if you're always 156 00:07:04,565 --> 00:07:07,244 Speaker 2: the kind of person that is very involved, you're very 157 00:07:07,255 --> 00:07:09,765 Speaker 2: involved in your personal life and you're very involved in 158 00:07:09,774 --> 00:07:11,785 Speaker 2: your work life. Then where do you tap out and 159 00:07:11,795 --> 00:07:13,924 Speaker 2: sit back? Cannot, right. 160 00:07:14,589 --> 00:07:17,130 Speaker 2: That's a question. Right? I don't know. No, because I 161 00:07:17,140 --> 00:07:20,429 Speaker 2: feel like whatever she described, right is kind of like 162 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,079 Speaker 2: you because everything you do is everything you love, right? 163 00:07:24,140 --> 00:07:27,690 Speaker 2: Like your crafts, your music, everything. Yeah. So how do 164 00:07:27,739 --> 00:07:31,190 Speaker 2: you separate that? I think it's because I love those 165 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,959 Speaker 2: things and I need to do them all. If I 166 00:07:32,970 --> 00:07:35,279 Speaker 2: only did one. Right? I would burn out and get 167 00:07:35,290 --> 00:07:37,399 Speaker 2: very tired very easily. I need to do a lot 168 00:07:37,410 --> 00:07:39,619 Speaker 2: of different things. The difference is what keeps me going 169 00:07:39,630 --> 00:07:41,489 Speaker 2: and keeps it sustainable because my attention 170 00:07:41,684 --> 00:07:44,625 Speaker 2: is constantly peaked and like my interest is always like, oh, 171 00:07:44,654 --> 00:07:47,554 Speaker 2: new thing, I can't do one thing forever. I think 172 00:07:47,565 --> 00:07:50,834 Speaker 2: I would burn out. Yeah. OK. Pre Love Bonito, right? 173 00:07:50,845 --> 00:07:53,244 Speaker 2: You mentioned that you were MNC and it sounded like 174 00:07:53,255 --> 00:07:56,315 Speaker 2: it was a very different working experience or? Yeah. So, 175 00:07:56,325 --> 00:07:59,075 Speaker 2: work life integration. Is it possible when you are working 176 00:07:59,084 --> 00:08:00,095 Speaker 2: those sort of roles? 177 00:08:00,105 --> 00:08:00,704 Speaker 1: I guess prior 178 00:08:00,714 --> 00:08:03,695 Speaker 1: moving into the consumer world? I was actually doing banking 179 00:08:03,704 --> 00:08:05,755 Speaker 1: and finance for a bit, but it was very sos 180 00:08:06,065 --> 00:08:08,424 Speaker 1: for me. Right? So, back then 181 00:08:09,059 --> 00:08:10,950 Speaker 1: I probably felt like that. Right? Like, oh my God, 182 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,700 Speaker 1: you're just waiting for the clock to hit, like, 66 183 00:08:13,829 --> 00:08:15,940 Speaker 1: and I'm, like, leave already, right? I'm just gonna run 184 00:08:15,950 --> 00:08:18,220 Speaker 1: out of the office and, you know, I guess maybe 185 00:08:18,230 --> 00:08:21,730 Speaker 1: going through Singapore system sometimes. Right? And maybe I went to, like, 186 00:08:21,739 --> 00:08:25,959 Speaker 1: a more geeky school, I guess everyone chooses a similar career, right? 187 00:08:25,970 --> 00:08:27,559 Speaker 1: Whether it's medicine, 188 00:08:27,970 --> 00:08:32,119 Speaker 1: ah, finance law, right? And everyone's like, oh my God, 189 00:08:32,130 --> 00:08:34,330 Speaker 1: I hate my career. I hate my job and like, 190 00:08:34,369 --> 00:08:37,669 Speaker 1: life is too short, right? To be doing something. Maybe 191 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: just because the pay is good, right? But you hate, like, 192 00:08:40,729 --> 00:08:43,859 Speaker 1: almost like 70% of your waking hours. Like, what's the point? 193 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: You know? So I think then I made the call, ok, 194 00:08:46,450 --> 00:08:48,169 Speaker 1: my full time job, like, let me pick something I 195 00:08:48,179 --> 00:08:50,409 Speaker 1: like and I really believe like maybe if you pick 196 00:08:50,419 --> 00:08:53,590 Speaker 1: something that you love doing and it's your craft, right? 197 00:08:53,599 --> 00:08:55,150 Speaker 1: It will pay decently 198 00:08:55,479 --> 00:08:57,340 Speaker 1: after that. Right? Because you're gonna put in the hours, 199 00:08:57,349 --> 00:08:58,989 Speaker 1: you're going to be really good at it. And I mean, 200 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: I think cost of living you can manage within your 201 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:03,299 Speaker 1: means as well, right? To lead the life that you 202 00:09:03,309 --> 00:09:03,919 Speaker 1: want to lead, 203 00:09:04,349 --> 00:09:07,289 Speaker 2: which actually brings me to my next point, right? Like, 204 00:09:07,299 --> 00:09:12,099 Speaker 2: you know, the term like golden handcuffs where basically you, 205 00:09:12,109 --> 00:09:14,619 Speaker 2: you feel that you are shackled to your job 206 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,869 Speaker 2: that you might not necessarily like, but then it has like, 207 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,780 Speaker 2: it pays well. Yeah. So then what would you recommend 208 00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:24,659 Speaker 2: the balance be between? Like, ok, you need to be 209 00:09:24,669 --> 00:09:27,700 Speaker 2: compensated well, but then at the same time, you shouldn't 210 00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:29,049 Speaker 2: suck your soul too much 211 00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:32,539 Speaker 1: because I've never been in that position yet. I left, 212 00:09:32,549 --> 00:09:35,699 Speaker 1: I left banking when I was too new and too junior, right? 213 00:09:35,710 --> 00:09:36,939 Speaker 1: As the first year 214 00:09:37,094 --> 00:09:39,674 Speaker 1: that you really don't have that notion of like golden handcuffs, right? 215 00:09:39,684 --> 00:09:41,244 Speaker 1: I mean, I get it now for like people who 216 00:09:41,255 --> 00:09:43,034 Speaker 1: have been doing this career for like, so long, it's 217 00:09:43,044 --> 00:09:44,994 Speaker 1: very hard to leave, right? When you hit like, sort 218 00:09:45,005 --> 00:09:47,775 Speaker 1: of almost like below that partner level, you like, can't 219 00:09:47,784 --> 00:09:50,075 Speaker 1: live anymore, right? Because your lifestyle is already at that 220 00:09:50,085 --> 00:09:52,015 Speaker 2: level and your life and you have to, yeah, 221 00:09:52,174 --> 00:09:54,885 Speaker 1: and you have to compromise on everything right? To be like, oh, 222 00:09:54,895 --> 00:09:57,354 Speaker 1: let me go be an entrepreneur today. It means a 223 00:09:57,364 --> 00:09:58,954 Speaker 1: very different standard of living. 224 00:09:59,309 --> 00:10:02,010 Speaker 1: But I guess it's also a relative to standard of living, right? 225 00:10:02,059 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: Like golden handcuffs, right? Like if you maybe choose, you know, 226 00:10:04,849 --> 00:10:08,109 Speaker 1: take the public transport all the time or you choose 227 00:10:08,119 --> 00:10:10,609 Speaker 1: to cook versus going out all the time. doesn't have 228 00:10:10,619 --> 00:10:14,150 Speaker 1: to be so costly. People without Children also, like the 229 00:10:14,159 --> 00:10:15,419 Speaker 1: cost of living is a bit different, 230 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: right? You get to make certain choices and you really 231 00:10:17,969 --> 00:10:20,590 Speaker 1: do have more freedom and flexibility. So 232 00:10:20,599 --> 00:10:23,020 Speaker 2: that maybe it's a case of like just because your 233 00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:27,260 Speaker 2: earning power is increasing, you don't let your lifestyle inflate 234 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 2: as well so that you have more options if and 235 00:10:30,450 --> 00:10:31,579 Speaker 2: when you decide to 236 00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:37,739 Speaker 2: stop like sacrificing your soul. But lifestyle creep is so 237 00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: it creeps on you for a reason. Like you don't 238 00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 2: see the drastic change. Like before, maybe you're like at 239 00:10:45,260 --> 00:10:47,468 Speaker 2: the starting pay. For example, you're like, I had to 240 00:10:47,479 --> 00:10:49,478 Speaker 2: take the train, I had to take the bus, then 241 00:10:49,489 --> 00:10:51,020 Speaker 2: you get a raise and you're like, OK, if I 242 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:51,419 Speaker 2: can 243 00:10:51,940 --> 00:10:54,900 Speaker 2: the $16 grab, right? Means I can sleep an extra 244 00:10:54,909 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 2: 40 minutes, I will take it. And then maybe after that, 245 00:10:58,330 --> 00:11:00,919 Speaker 2: the grab becomes a constant and you're OK. I got 246 00:11:00,929 --> 00:11:05,479 Speaker 2: another race. This means instead of buying groceries and cooking, 247 00:11:05,489 --> 00:11:07,489 Speaker 2: which will take two hours out of my day. I 248 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: just need to be on the toilet. I press grab, 249 00:11:10,770 --> 00:11:13,979 Speaker 2: that's another $20 added to your daily routine. Like the 250 00:11:13,989 --> 00:11:15,969 Speaker 2: creep happens this way where you don't realize 251 00:11:16,659 --> 00:11:20,049 Speaker 2: it. And then when you have to reconsider, like, ok, 252 00:11:20,059 --> 00:11:22,549 Speaker 2: actually I'm burning out. Right. It's time. So I need 253 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,119 Speaker 2: to call all these things out. They have been so 254 00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:28,309 Speaker 2: integrated into your daily life that you can't do without 255 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,789 Speaker 2: them anymore. And your norm has such a drastic shift 256 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:35,229 Speaker 2: that who you are becomes affected. And I feel like 257 00:11:35,239 --> 00:11:37,770 Speaker 2: that's what a lot of people are going through with 258 00:11:37,780 --> 00:11:40,090 Speaker 2: the this whole work life balance thing that 259 00:11:41,119 --> 00:11:44,809 Speaker 2: like, no, I'm just absorbing everything. Yeah, because I don't 260 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:49,700 Speaker 2: really think too much about these things like the grand. No, no, no, no, 261 00:11:49,710 --> 00:11:53,799 Speaker 2: I am the grand. But that is my, my way 262 00:11:53,809 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 2: of rewarding myself because I choose how I spend my 263 00:11:57,570 --> 00:12:01,020 Speaker 2: money if I'm not someone who shops a lot or I, 264 00:12:01,030 --> 00:12:04,950 Speaker 2: I personally don't buy luxury goods or materialistic stuff. So 265 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,010 Speaker 2: that is how I make sure I'm happy and at 266 00:12:07,020 --> 00:12:09,059 Speaker 2: peace because I don't want to be rushing. I don't 267 00:12:09,070 --> 00:12:09,500 Speaker 2: want to be, 268 00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:12,150 Speaker 2: you know, like just stressed out when I need to 269 00:12:12,159 --> 00:12:14,059 Speaker 2: get from point A to point B I think some 270 00:12:14,070 --> 00:12:18,309 Speaker 2: people do judge people who take, grab a lot, you know, like, oh, 271 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,489 Speaker 2: isn't that a waste of money? You can just take the, 272 00:12:20,619 --> 00:12:23,380 Speaker 2: take the bus but I'm also someone who doesn't go 273 00:12:23,390 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: for concerts every month. You know what I mean? And 274 00:12:26,969 --> 00:12:29,260 Speaker 2: no shame about concert goals. It's just that this is 275 00:12:29,270 --> 00:12:31,549 Speaker 2: how I choose to spend my money and it's cheaper 276 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,039 Speaker 2: than financing a car. Yeah, in the past, actually, Nick 277 00:12:35,869 --> 00:12:39,130 Speaker 2: was someone who cares more about the passion for his 278 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: job when we were younger when we were younger. So 279 00:12:42,289 --> 00:12:45,380 Speaker 2: he cares more about having fun, having like good colleagues 280 00:12:45,390 --> 00:12:48,238 Speaker 2: and everything, right? But then it reached one point where 281 00:12:48,250 --> 00:12:51,239 Speaker 2: we had a conversation and he said actually, at this point, 282 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:52,609 Speaker 2: you can just see your job as a job when 283 00:12:52,619 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: I was younger and new to the industry, right? 284 00:12:54,770 --> 00:12:57,070 Speaker 2: Then um I was in a job where it was 285 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,789 Speaker 2: very fun. Colleagues were like my friends and like the 286 00:13:00,799 --> 00:13:04,260 Speaker 2: work was fun. It was, it was like interesting life experiences. 287 00:13:04,359 --> 00:13:06,659 Speaker 2: But then at the same time at the end of 288 00:13:06,669 --> 00:13:09,289 Speaker 2: the day, right? Um It was, it was still work. 289 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,359 Speaker 2: So I felt like I wasn't seeing my friends outside 290 00:13:13,369 --> 00:13:16,819 Speaker 2: of work as much. I wasn't seeing my family as 291 00:13:16,830 --> 00:13:19,700 Speaker 2: much and that job just sort of took up my 292 00:13:19,710 --> 00:13:22,039 Speaker 2: entire life. Then that was when I came up with 293 00:13:22,049 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 2: this whole like pie chart thing where I found out 294 00:13:23,729 --> 00:13:26,489 Speaker 2: that like, you know that it was 100% this job. 295 00:13:26,750 --> 00:13:28,949 Speaker 2: So I went from work life integration to work life 296 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,049 Speaker 2: balance because I felt like, yeah, there were things that 297 00:13:32,059 --> 00:13:34,510 Speaker 2: like was outside of this, I couldn't fit, like my 298 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,130 Speaker 2: family is not going to be, you know, here in 299 00:13:37,140 --> 00:13:38,819 Speaker 2: this role with me and things like that. 300 00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:41,309 Speaker 2: So then I went the other way around. It sounds 301 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,630 Speaker 2: like there will be a lot of sacrifices ultimately. So, 302 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:47,919 Speaker 2: were there any major sacrifices that you have to make 303 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:49,690 Speaker 2: throughout your journey? 304 00:13:49,739 --> 00:13:49,830 Speaker 1: I 305 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:50,169 Speaker 2: guess, 306 00:13:50,179 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: growing up, to be honest, I probably hustled quite a bit. Right. Also, actually, 307 00:13:53,849 --> 00:13:56,530 Speaker 1: because my dad was sick. Right. Because I think the 308 00:13:56,539 --> 00:13:58,650 Speaker 1: moment I started off in the workforce suddenly it became 309 00:13:58,659 --> 00:13:59,409 Speaker 1: sort of like the soul 310 00:13:59,674 --> 00:14:02,494 Speaker 1: winner because my mom doesn't work. My mom has been 311 00:14:02,505 --> 00:14:05,934 Speaker 1: a homemaker, like, since I was what, six. So maybe 312 00:14:05,945 --> 00:14:07,613 Speaker 1: I think when I first started my career, I didn't 313 00:14:07,625 --> 00:14:10,275 Speaker 1: really think so much about it and like, even work 314 00:14:10,284 --> 00:14:13,155 Speaker 1: life balance, right? The notion of it after sort of 315 00:14:13,164 --> 00:14:16,625 Speaker 1: like joining LB, you know, three years in and there 316 00:14:16,635 --> 00:14:18,695 Speaker 1: was a moment in time, like, then my dad was really, 317 00:14:18,705 --> 00:14:20,934 Speaker 1: really quite sick. Right. So, I don't know if I 318 00:14:20,945 --> 00:14:23,094 Speaker 1: see that as a sacrifice, right. But I think what 319 00:14:23,104 --> 00:14:25,864 Speaker 1: was super unfortunate and a bit tragic. Right. Very honestly 320 00:14:26,989 --> 00:14:28,989 Speaker 1: when he was like, sort of like, almost in final 321 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,570 Speaker 1: stages and we knew it, I took time off from 322 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:36,340 Speaker 1: work right during that two weeks and then back then 323 00:14:36,349 --> 00:14:39,390 Speaker 1: maybe you're all too young to remember. But I be 324 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: hit the news right back then we had a, we 325 00:14:41,530 --> 00:14:43,809 Speaker 1: had a data breach, right. So obviously had to go 326 00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:47,059 Speaker 1: into office. Right. Work the teams and our tech teams 327 00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:49,049 Speaker 1: and all of that to settle. And the moment I 328 00:14:49,059 --> 00:14:51,349 Speaker 1: went back to office, I still remember that moment. 329 00:14:51,799 --> 00:14:55,690 Speaker 1: Then my dad passed. Right. So I went through probably 330 00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:57,780 Speaker 1: a year after that where I was like, wow, I 331 00:14:57,789 --> 00:14:58,940 Speaker 1: think from 332 00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:03,260 Speaker 1: feeling always like, hey. Right. This is my icky guy. Right. 333 00:15:03,270 --> 00:15:05,929 Speaker 1: I'm feeling passionate to like step in every day. I 334 00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,830 Speaker 1: guess there was always a part of me that then 335 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:13,159 Speaker 1: for that year after felt really quite bitter and a 336 00:15:13,169 --> 00:15:15,150 Speaker 1: little bit, I would say 337 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: empty. How did you internalize and like process and move 338 00:15:19,289 --> 00:15:19,909 Speaker 2: past that 339 00:15:19,919 --> 00:15:20,450 Speaker 1: talking 340 00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:22,659 Speaker 1: to people helps, you know, they always say, hey, talk 341 00:15:22,669 --> 00:15:24,969 Speaker 1: to someone, but I think talking to someone actually really helps. 342 00:15:25,450 --> 00:15:28,059 Speaker 1: Um but I think it takes time also to be comfortable, right? 343 00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:29,729 Speaker 1: To also reach out and talk to someone. 344 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,900 Speaker 1: I think owning that decision in a way too, right? 345 00:15:32,909 --> 00:15:35,159 Speaker 1: Like I made the decision also to go back into 346 00:15:35,169 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: the office, of course. Right. I made that decision, right? 347 00:15:38,090 --> 00:15:40,659 Speaker 1: What didn't make me do that decision? Right? And I 348 00:15:40,669 --> 00:15:42,500 Speaker 1: think part of growing up, yeah, I have to own 349 00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:46,140 Speaker 1: it right and be OK. Right. And settled with that 350 00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:46,890 Speaker 1: as well. 351 00:15:47,059 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 2: Did that shift your mentality or the way you 352 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,950 Speaker 2: dealt with work or how you balance 353 00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: that made me carve my first nonnegotiable with family. Right. 354 00:15:57,650 --> 00:16:00,369 Speaker 1: I think after I lost my dad, to be very honest, 355 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:03,010 Speaker 1: that's why I carve out now. Like, every Sunday, right. 356 00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:07,460 Speaker 1: Every Sunday, nonnegotiable. Right. Time with my mom and then, like, 357 00:16:07,469 --> 00:16:10,130 Speaker 1: family time now. It's so strange. I think, well, I'm 358 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:11,539 Speaker 1: at an age, maybe you're not the age yet, but 359 00:16:11,549 --> 00:16:13,450 Speaker 1: I'm at the age where, you know, I think sometimes 360 00:16:13,460 --> 00:16:13,780 Speaker 1: a bit sad. 361 00:16:13,869 --> 00:16:16,250 Speaker 1: I guess you start losing also relatives. Me and my 362 00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:18,489 Speaker 1: oldest cousin, we actually spend time to like try to 363 00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:21,090 Speaker 1: pull all the cousins together, right? Try to still meet 364 00:16:21,099 --> 00:16:23,419 Speaker 1: up at like my other auntie's place or my mom's place. 365 00:16:23,599 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: I think my dad's passing made me realize like, wow, 366 00:16:25,450 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: death is, you know, like so imminent, right? Let's spend 367 00:16:29,010 --> 00:16:31,450 Speaker 1: time with the ones that we choose to spend time 368 00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:33,469 Speaker 1: and let's also do our part, right? To try to 369 00:16:33,479 --> 00:16:35,119 Speaker 1: pull the family together sometimes 370 00:16:35,130 --> 00:16:36,729 Speaker 2: in life. It's just you need that 371 00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:40,729 Speaker 2: not need, but it takes a significant moment like that 372 00:16:40,739 --> 00:16:42,729 Speaker 2: for you to be shocked and take a step back 373 00:16:42,739 --> 00:16:46,229 Speaker 2: and be like, ok, this is a priority because it's 374 00:16:46,239 --> 00:16:48,479 Speaker 2: so easy to get caught up in the work. Is 375 00:16:48,489 --> 00:16:51,750 Speaker 2: this something that you've decided to implement for lb as 376 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,869 Speaker 2: a company, like carving out time for family, for staff 377 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,159 Speaker 2: members and the team? 378 00:16:56,169 --> 00:16:59,099 Speaker 1: Well, I guess the moment like COVID happened, right? We 379 00:16:59,109 --> 00:17:04,319 Speaker 1: announce just flexible, a flexible work arrangement and a setup. 380 00:17:04,329 --> 00:17:06,209 Speaker 1: So actually, until today, we don't define like 381 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:09,689 Speaker 1: a set day of the week, right? That you come 382 00:17:09,699 --> 00:17:12,369 Speaker 1: back or like everyone has mandate, everyone has to come back. 383 00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: I think something you're working through. Not perfect yet, right? 384 00:17:15,770 --> 00:17:17,709 Speaker 1: But I think we also try to have teams also 385 00:17:17,719 --> 00:17:20,060 Speaker 1: be more conscious, they try to avoid, right, let's say like, hey, 386 00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:22,329 Speaker 1: 6 p.m. calls and so on because for us, I 387 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:24,319 Speaker 1: guess the workforce is going through that period where 388 00:17:24,968 --> 00:17:27,138 Speaker 1: more of the workforce now are becoming like first time 389 00:17:27,148 --> 00:17:29,808 Speaker 1: parents also. Right? I think you want to ensure that 390 00:17:29,818 --> 00:17:32,738 Speaker 1: the younger parents are also ok. And they have their 391 00:17:32,749 --> 00:17:35,328 Speaker 1: own space also, right? Because that's probably the time also, right? 392 00:17:35,338 --> 00:17:38,619 Speaker 1: You are either picking your kids up, prepping dinner and 393 00:17:38,629 --> 00:17:39,129 Speaker 1: so on, 394 00:17:40,349 --> 00:17:41,300 Speaker 2: crash down. 395 00:17:42,380 --> 00:17:44,079 Speaker 2: Ok. Come on, you first 396 00:17:44,099 --> 00:17:50,589 Speaker 1: choose one outer space or deep sea. They both kind 397 00:17:50,599 --> 00:17:56,410 Speaker 1: of sound terrible. Ok. I really don't want to be 398 00:17:56,420 --> 00:17:59,050 Speaker 1: in a very scary outer space. So I'll go 399 00:17:59,060 --> 00:17:59,448 Speaker 2: deep 400 00:17:59,459 --> 00:18:00,030 Speaker 1: sea 401 00:18:00,849 --> 00:18:03,339 Speaker 2: actually. She looked like surfer or diver. Right? Yes, she 402 00:18:03,349 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 2: does go Bali surf, but maybe got to be astronauts. 403 00:18:06,619 --> 00:18:08,020 Speaker 2: So cool. Thank 404 00:18:08,030 --> 00:18:08,930 Speaker 2: you. I'll 405 00:18:08,949 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: be new space. So you never see 406 00:18:13,229 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: what is one invention you are 100% sure will be 407 00:18:18,290 --> 00:18:21,750 Speaker 2: invented in the future. I really, I was thinking about 408 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,739 Speaker 2: this the other day. You know, I think, I think 409 00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:24,910 Speaker 2: we will teleport soon. 410 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:29,228 Speaker 2: I really want to teleport how, I don't know how 411 00:18:30,199 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: many years in the next 100 years 100 years. Quite long. 412 00:18:34,829 --> 00:18:38,530 Speaker 2: It's quite soon teleport. Have you ever googled yourself? What 413 00:18:38,540 --> 00:18:41,530 Speaker 2: was the purpose? Of course, I have no, but then again, 414 00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:44,109 Speaker 2: because I'm referred to as Q, right. I have to 415 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,469 Speaker 2: type my full name. So my full name will just 416 00:18:46,479 --> 00:18:50,839 Speaker 2: bring up my linkedin old videos of us in another company. 417 00:18:51,619 --> 00:18:53,619 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all I just want to see. Like what 418 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:55,629 Speaker 2: popped up. Wait, sub question. Have you ever typed your 419 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 2: name in red? No, wait now, I'm scared. Red is 420 00:18:59,729 --> 00:19:02,670 Speaker 2: where the real tea is. Really? 421 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,609 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess we're all doing that tonight but 422 00:19:05,619 --> 00:19:11,300 Speaker 2: actually nothing comes up because we're not popular. You have 423 00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:14,169 Speaker 2: to make one dish to get a Michelin star. What 424 00:19:14,180 --> 00:19:16,449 Speaker 2: dish are you making? Fried rice? 425 00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:19,339 Speaker 2: Fun fact I made fried rice and go on a 426 00:19:19,349 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 2: cooking show as a kid before. Hey, what you and 427 00:19:24,979 --> 00:19:27,859 Speaker 2: it was a lunch box competition. Then I introduced myself. 428 00:19:27,869 --> 00:19:31,750 Speaker 2: I hold the broccoli there. What should you eat this? Yeah, 429 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,310 Speaker 2: Ben you and is Lee hosted it? I mean apple 430 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:38,250 Speaker 2: fried rice. You, you fr the crew like that like, 431 00:19:38,380 --> 00:19:40,188 Speaker 2: but they eat and they say why? Nice. Ah then 432 00:19:40,199 --> 00:19:41,209 Speaker 2: they couldn't stop eating. 433 00:19:42,099 --> 00:19:44,859 Speaker 2: Actually when we talk about work life balance, right? I 434 00:19:44,869 --> 00:19:47,420 Speaker 2: always think about the people who have to pick up 435 00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:50,619 Speaker 2: calls from their bosses after 6 p.m. and you know, 436 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:54,420 Speaker 2: some people, some bosses don't really have that boundary set, 437 00:19:54,430 --> 00:19:57,060 Speaker 2: you know, like no healthy boundaries. So how do you 438 00:19:57,069 --> 00:20:02,869 Speaker 2: guys think an employee can properly convey that message to 439 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:08,780 Speaker 2: their boss? I feel like nowadays any healthy work environment should, 440 00:20:08,849 --> 00:20:10,790 Speaker 2: you should be as an employee. You should be able 441 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 2: to like, 442 00:20:11,569 --> 00:20:13,780 Speaker 2: oh, I can't make it at this time. Like because 443 00:20:13,790 --> 00:20:17,579 Speaker 2: I work in like a regional slash global role. So 444 00:20:17,589 --> 00:20:20,180 Speaker 2: I do a lot of late calls. I have bosses 445 00:20:20,189 --> 00:20:23,510 Speaker 2: in London in the US. So any time we need 446 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,630 Speaker 2: to catch up, like I think I'm quite fortunate that 447 00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:28,550 Speaker 2: they will offer to like, oh, I can do an 448 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,530 Speaker 2: early one or a late one. So we will take turns. 449 00:20:30,540 --> 00:20:34,390 Speaker 2: So sometimes you suffer, sometimes I suffer kind of thing. 450 00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:36,290 Speaker 2: And I feel that if you are not in a 451 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:37,589 Speaker 2: work environment that 452 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,459 Speaker 2: is like that where you are always expected to get 453 00:20:41,469 --> 00:20:43,540 Speaker 2: to hold the short end of the stick, then you 454 00:20:43,550 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: need to reconsider whether there is the right work environment 455 00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:49,900 Speaker 2: for you. But what if it is a it happened 456 00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:53,179 Speaker 2: maybe three times only? No. OK. Then I think no 457 00:20:53,189 --> 00:20:55,579 Speaker 2: three times only but then you sense that it might 458 00:20:55,589 --> 00:20:55,819 Speaker 2: become 459 00:20:55,925 --> 00:20:59,484 Speaker 2: a routine. So how do you put a stop to it? Yeah. Correct. 460 00:20:59,494 --> 00:21:03,094 Speaker 2: Especially when they kind of guilt trip. You expect you 461 00:21:03,104 --> 00:21:06,724 Speaker 2: to reply them at maybe nine pm, 11 pm. Not 462 00:21:06,734 --> 00:21:09,415 Speaker 2: that it's happening to me. I'm just saying an example. 463 00:21:09,484 --> 00:21:14,405 Speaker 2: I think usually what I would recommend would be like, oh, sorry, 464 00:21:14,415 --> 00:21:17,055 Speaker 2: I can't, I'm having dinner. With my family because like, 465 00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:20,300 Speaker 2: for them, maybe they don't realize sometimes they, I give 466 00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:22,599 Speaker 2: benefit of a doubt that they don't realize that it's 467 00:21:22,609 --> 00:21:25,169 Speaker 2: your evening or of your working hours 468 00:21:25,180 --> 00:21:28,130 Speaker 1: because everyone's a different time zone in that. But 469 00:21:28,140 --> 00:21:28,339 Speaker 2: if 470 00:21:28,349 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: it's like a Singapore, Singapore kind of context, then 471 00:21:31,069 --> 00:21:32,739 Speaker 2: I think even more you can just like, I'm having 472 00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:35,079 Speaker 2: dinner with my family. Um, can I get this to 473 00:21:35,089 --> 00:21:37,609 Speaker 2: you tomorrow? So then the onus is on them if 474 00:21:37,619 --> 00:21:39,859 Speaker 2: they really want to push through and like, no, I 475 00:21:39,869 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: need it tonight. Then you as the boss need to 476 00:21:42,410 --> 00:21:45,530 Speaker 2: own that. You are being the bad guy. LA like, don't, 477 00:21:45,540 --> 00:21:48,349 Speaker 2: don't put it on me like as your employee to like, oh, 478 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,729 Speaker 2: I should self sacrifice like proactively all the time. Yeah. Ok. 479 00:21:53,739 --> 00:21:56,329 Speaker 2: I used to be an sme and like 480 00:21:56,699 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: it was very difficult because in sme s most of 481 00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:02,300 Speaker 2: the time it's like similar to start up where the 482 00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:06,540 Speaker 2: boss literally works until 4 a.m. and they forget that 483 00:22:06,550 --> 00:22:09,650 Speaker 2: the same cannot be asked of your staff. And I 484 00:22:09,660 --> 00:22:13,149 Speaker 2: remember replying emails setting up decks at 3 a.m. two 485 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: AM 486 00:22:13,910 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: and one time a customer replied, hey, please go and 487 00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:21,209 Speaker 2: sleep and I read the email, I'm like, oh no, 488 00:22:21,219 --> 00:22:24,250 Speaker 2: this looks bad because I'm replying from the company email. 489 00:22:24,439 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 2: And then they said like whoever's at the team now, 490 00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:29,069 Speaker 2: like please go and rest like it's too late, really 491 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:31,889 Speaker 2: don't do work anymore. And I'm like, oh my God. 492 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,429 Speaker 2: If a client can tell me this, why can't my 493 00:22:35,439 --> 00:22:37,530 Speaker 2: boss tell me this? And 494 00:22:38,069 --> 00:22:40,599 Speaker 2: I realized because I'm the kind of person that if 495 00:22:40,609 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: I see something that needs to be done, I will 496 00:22:41,930 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: get to immediately if I see a text, right? I 497 00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:47,469 Speaker 2: need to force myself to not open it. And all 498 00:22:47,479 --> 00:22:50,500 Speaker 2: I need to do is it was past my working 499 00:22:50,510 --> 00:22:53,209 Speaker 2: time and I will get to it in the morning. 500 00:22:53,339 --> 00:22:55,859 Speaker 2: But I just don't reply. I find that that really works. 501 00:22:55,939 --> 00:22:58,449 Speaker 2: If I reply now and especially knowing that your boss 502 00:22:58,459 --> 00:23:00,229 Speaker 2: is the kind that cannot draw the boundaries right, then 503 00:23:00,239 --> 00:23:03,849 Speaker 2: you draw yourself. And if they keep erasing your boundary, 504 00:23:03,859 --> 00:23:05,729 Speaker 2: then you draw in front of hr 505 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,900 Speaker 2: I tell you just in front of hr just be like, actually, 506 00:23:11,910 --> 00:23:14,949 Speaker 2: I will, I will admit that like sometimes I work 507 00:23:14,959 --> 00:23:17,349 Speaker 2: until very, very late. Then I will assign stuff to 508 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,709 Speaker 2: people like at weird hours. But then I don't expect 509 00:23:20,719 --> 00:23:23,739 Speaker 2: you to respond to me immediately. But sometimes I think 510 00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:27,260 Speaker 2: like people are pressured like they self they self like like, 511 00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:29,589 Speaker 2: oh I know like someone has assigned me something. 512 00:23:29,665 --> 00:23:33,364 Speaker 2: So then I learned that like sometimes the onus is 513 00:23:33,375 --> 00:23:36,564 Speaker 2: also on me to like like clarify. So I need 514 00:23:36,574 --> 00:23:38,185 Speaker 2: to talk to you about this these days. Can you 515 00:23:38,194 --> 00:23:40,064 Speaker 2: do this? This is this but please don't look at 516 00:23:40,074 --> 00:23:44,714 Speaker 2: this until tomorrow. Then I updated my email signature like 517 00:23:44,724 --> 00:23:46,685 Speaker 2: because I saw like someone in hr did it, it 518 00:23:46,694 --> 00:23:47,844 Speaker 2: was quite good. It was like 519 00:23:48,099 --> 00:23:50,949 Speaker 2: I work flexibly at hours that suit me. So please 520 00:23:50,959 --> 00:23:54,849 Speaker 2: respond at an appropriate time for you. I was like, wow, 521 00:23:54,859 --> 00:23:58,149 Speaker 2: that's great. So then I I put that in my teams, 522 00:23:58,339 --> 00:24:01,958 Speaker 2: I put it in my team's bio and my email signature. 523 00:24:01,969 --> 00:24:04,290 Speaker 2: So like when people get messages from me, they know. Yeah, 524 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:07,459 Speaker 2: for me, I feel like it's the choice of platforms. 525 00:24:07,469 --> 00:24:10,500 Speaker 2: So for example, email, I think it's not expected of me. 526 00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: But if someone telegrams me or whatsapp me, right? I 527 00:24:13,810 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: feel like I'm pressured to reply and then 528 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,389 Speaker 2: if you use Slack, you schedule a message at 9 a.m. 529 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:21,099 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, 530 00:24:21,479 --> 00:24:25,739 Speaker 2: you don't actually send it immediately. So that's how schedule, 531 00:24:26,140 --> 00:24:29,139 Speaker 1: but I really don't like to use my personal chat 532 00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:32,349 Speaker 1: with like the teams. I think it's too intrusive like 533 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,510 Speaker 1: whatsapp Tally. We use a lot of Slack. But yeah, 534 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,420 Speaker 1: because I used to always have it and be like, ok, 535 00:24:37,729 --> 00:24:40,150 Speaker 1: you don't have to reply me now can just reply 536 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,219 Speaker 1: me tomorrow. But I think there's still power dynamic, right? 537 00:24:43,229 --> 00:24:45,149 Speaker 1: That when people see on slack, someone's like, 538 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,670 Speaker 1: right? Like although Dion is saying that but oh, maybe 539 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,010 Speaker 1: there's going to be a repercussion if I don't reply now. 540 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,550 Speaker 1: So I started scheduling but now I think everyone gets 541 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: messages at nine like nine 542 00:24:57,449 --> 00:25:00,130 Speaker 2: AM. If you stand at the office at 859 right 543 00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:02,329 Speaker 2: then like at nine o'clock, then you can hear everybody's 544 00:25:02,339 --> 00:25:09,250 Speaker 2: notification and then it's all you present im your laptop, 545 00:25:09,260 --> 00:25:13,329 Speaker 2: then you can hear it so satisfying all around you. 546 00:25:14,709 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: Has there ever been a situation where you notice like 547 00:25:17,010 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: a staff member is not doing so well. And then 548 00:25:19,849 --> 00:25:23,270 Speaker 2: after that, you guys after a chat, you realize there 549 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,430 Speaker 2: needs to be some shifts. You got a skill or 550 00:25:25,439 --> 00:25:31,339 Speaker 2: not to like this person as in, you can smell 551 00:25:31,349 --> 00:25:31,438 Speaker 2: the 552 00:25:33,130 --> 00:25:35,969 Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely, I think you can sense it in terms 553 00:25:35,979 --> 00:25:38,719 Speaker 1: of like energy, energy in a room, 554 00:25:38,814 --> 00:25:41,185 Speaker 1: I guess how maybe engaged they are also in like 555 00:25:41,194 --> 00:25:43,285 Speaker 1: the day to day and even the presence, right? I 556 00:25:43,295 --> 00:25:45,305 Speaker 1: think when you're seeing someone in like even in a 557 00:25:45,314 --> 00:25:48,875 Speaker 1: workspace walking around, right? Whether they're dragging their feet or like, 558 00:25:48,885 --> 00:25:51,074 Speaker 1: I like to look for the bounce in the steps. 559 00:25:51,084 --> 00:25:54,073 Speaker 2: So any lb folks, if you all don't bounce 560 00:25:55,969 --> 00:26:00,540 Speaker 2: next time, you see you don't bounce, they all know. 561 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 2: So actually if you notice right, then what would be 562 00:26:03,209 --> 00:26:06,889 Speaker 2: your Yeah, what would be your like next steps? 563 00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, usually usually check in, check in first, right? If 564 00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: it's that person, you're working directly with them, check in, right? 565 00:26:12,530 --> 00:26:15,739 Speaker 1: How you how's everything, right? How you, you know, I 566 00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:16,859 Speaker 1: think what challenges 567 00:26:16,869 --> 00:26:19,839 Speaker 2: as a leader do you feel pressured to always be 568 00:26:20,329 --> 00:26:24,130 Speaker 2: at your best state? So for example, something negative has 569 00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:27,198 Speaker 2: happened in your personal life, but you still feel the 570 00:26:27,209 --> 00:26:30,020 Speaker 2: pressure to show up for your team, like everybody can 571 00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:33,310 Speaker 2: don't bounce but I must bounce. Yeah. Right. Because if 572 00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:34,579 Speaker 2: the leader don't bounce, then 573 00:26:36,699 --> 00:26:39,189 Speaker 1: of course, I mean, of course to show that, hey, 574 00:26:39,199 --> 00:26:42,890 Speaker 1: I think you're OK. Right. Situations OK? Things are OK. 575 00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:46,369 Speaker 1: Yeah. And to like filter, I think you filter a 576 00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:49,130 Speaker 1: lot of noises and things for the team. Then 577 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:49,409 Speaker 2: how do 578 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:51,709 Speaker 2: you cope? How do you draw the boundary? Because now 579 00:26:51,719 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: you're not just taking care of yourself, but you're also 580 00:26:54,569 --> 00:26:58,489 Speaker 2: sort of responsible for the well being of your team. 581 00:26:58,510 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 2: It's like parenting, you cannot show them your, it's like 582 00:27:02,290 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 2: how our parents didn't show us, like when they are 583 00:27:05,170 --> 00:27:07,369 Speaker 2: down and things like that when you're growing up. Yeah. Yeah. 584 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:09,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really went through a learning curve. OK? 585 00:27:09,266 --> 00:27:11,126 Speaker 1: When I first was a manager, I actually used to, 586 00:27:11,186 --> 00:27:13,677 Speaker 1: used to think that being a manager, right? I think 587 00:27:13,686 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 1: you have to operate like an umbrella, you block all 588 00:27:17,487 --> 00:27:22,246 Speaker 1: the shit right from dropping onto your team's plate and 589 00:27:22,256 --> 00:27:26,005 Speaker 1: you just shield them from everything. I think I learned 590 00:27:26,016 --> 00:27:29,217 Speaker 1: over time also that too much is like coddling. OK? 591 00:27:29,246 --> 00:27:30,906 Speaker 1: I think it depends on how senior your team. Is 592 00:27:30,936 --> 00:27:33,837 Speaker 1: it someone really junior also? Of course, first job, right? 593 00:27:33,847 --> 00:27:34,005 Speaker 1: You don 594 00:27:34,374 --> 00:27:37,004 Speaker 1: boom, let me show you everything, right. I think you 595 00:27:37,013 --> 00:27:39,583 Speaker 1: might also sort of maybe it's too overwhelming also for 596 00:27:39,593 --> 00:27:42,443 Speaker 1: them to process. But I think now also, I think working, 597 00:27:42,453 --> 00:27:46,124 Speaker 1: of course more mature teams, I think also learning that, hey, 598 00:27:46,134 --> 00:27:48,583 Speaker 1: I think your teams of course, right. They also adult enough, 599 00:27:48,593 --> 00:27:51,683 Speaker 1: they're mature enough, right? You can trust also and you 600 00:27:51,693 --> 00:27:54,073 Speaker 1: can also be more vulnerable, right? Share a bit more 601 00:27:54,083 --> 00:27:56,583 Speaker 1: candidly also so that they also get, right? I think 602 00:27:56,593 --> 00:27:58,042 Speaker 1: more context as well 603 00:27:58,941 --> 00:28:01,860 Speaker 2: after our conversation. Do you still feel that it's realistic 604 00:28:01,869 --> 00:28:03,441 Speaker 2: to have work life balance in Singapore? 605 00:28:03,451 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: It's 606 00:28:03,770 --> 00:28:03,830 Speaker 2: the 607 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,890 Speaker 1: trade offs right? End of the day. Like what's important 608 00:28:05,901 --> 00:28:08,770 Speaker 1: for you? I think how you define that work life 609 00:28:08,781 --> 00:28:12,791 Speaker 1: balance also important, right? But maybe if you want more flexibility, 610 00:28:12,801 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: then if you're OK with lesser pay, right? Or maybe 611 00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:17,681 Speaker 1: erratic pay sometimes let's say if you are a free 612 00:28:17,691 --> 00:28:20,821 Speaker 1: lancer or whatever, right? Like, but that's, you know, I 613 00:28:20,830 --> 00:28:23,401 Speaker 1: think then be comfortable with that, with that choice. 614 00:28:24,469 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: Do you guys feel like with this wave of like, no, 615 00:28:26,930 --> 00:28:28,958 Speaker 2: I'm going to draw my boundary that some people have 616 00:28:28,969 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: taken it a bit too far to the point where it's, 617 00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,099 Speaker 2: you know what I mean? It's like you need to 618 00:28:34,109 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: come in today. Oh I can't, I'm just, I just 619 00:28:36,369 --> 00:28:38,849 Speaker 2: can't today. No, today is not my day to come in. 620 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: It's like you can't draw definitive boundaries when it comes 621 00:28:45,770 --> 00:28:50,550 Speaker 2: to someone else's mental health and well being. But in 622 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,199 Speaker 2: the corporate world, it doesn't stop because you feel like 623 00:28:54,209 --> 00:28:56,650 Speaker 2: I just can't today. Yeah, I mean, I think 624 00:28:56,744 --> 00:28:59,375 Speaker 2: so, I think it is really give and take. And the, 625 00:28:59,645 --> 00:29:02,744 Speaker 2: I think the scariest part is that like the realization 626 00:29:02,755 --> 00:29:05,175 Speaker 2: that if you don't do someone will do it, someone 627 00:29:05,185 --> 00:29:07,275 Speaker 2: else will do it, like what your job is at stake. 628 00:29:07,655 --> 00:29:11,944 Speaker 2: You are, right. But jumping on the mental health thing, 629 00:29:11,954 --> 00:29:13,285 Speaker 2: I think it's so hard to 630 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,119 Speaker 2: proof that you're not feeling well, like when you're having 631 00:29:18,130 --> 00:29:19,729 Speaker 2: a stomachache or you're having a fever, you can go 632 00:29:19,739 --> 00:29:21,739 Speaker 2: to the doctors to get an MC. But when it 633 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:23,810 Speaker 2: comes to mental health, I think it's, you just got 634 00:29:23,819 --> 00:29:27,079 Speaker 2: to trust and hope that they don't abuse the 635 00:29:27,089 --> 00:29:27,630 Speaker 2: system. 636 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,770 Speaker 1: But I think it's a fine line also, right? I 637 00:29:29,780 --> 00:29:32,339 Speaker 1: think whether if someone sort of like just not coming 638 00:29:32,349 --> 00:29:34,869 Speaker 1: in or showing up because they just don't feel like it, 639 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,109 Speaker 1: I think it's a problem, right? That should be addressed 640 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,349 Speaker 1: if everyone becomes too entitled in a way. But 641 00:29:41,464 --> 00:29:45,165 Speaker 1: if teams are, let's say smart and are lazy in 642 00:29:45,175 --> 00:29:46,744 Speaker 1: a certain way, let's say like, you know, I think 643 00:29:46,755 --> 00:29:49,564 Speaker 1: you utilize like maximize also a I for certain things, 644 00:29:49,714 --> 00:29:52,494 Speaker 1: but you're still doing your job, right? That's ok. Right. 645 00:29:52,505 --> 00:29:53,885 Speaker 1: You don't have to do face time for the sake 646 00:29:53,895 --> 00:29:56,435 Speaker 1: of face time if you're delivering outcomes and then you 647 00:29:56,444 --> 00:29:59,564 Speaker 1: get more hours for yourself, I think that's ok. So 648 00:29:59,574 --> 00:30:01,555 Speaker 2: with everything said, what is one thing you like to 649 00:30:01,564 --> 00:30:04,244 Speaker 2: share with the audience about work life balance? I think 650 00:30:04,255 --> 00:30:07,525 Speaker 2: it's difficult to expect like constant work life balance in 651 00:30:07,535 --> 00:30:08,805 Speaker 2: the exact same ratio 652 00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:14,250 Speaker 2: like throughout the year or like constantly because the workforce 653 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:15,869 Speaker 2: is just not like that. Like there will be busy 654 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,709 Speaker 2: periods and there will be chill periods. So I think 655 00:30:18,719 --> 00:30:21,020 Speaker 2: people just need to see as like when it's chill, 656 00:30:21,030 --> 00:30:24,510 Speaker 2: I chill when it's busy. I Chong a bit. Um 657 00:30:24,739 --> 00:30:27,750 Speaker 2: and it might be like tiring and exhausting. But for 658 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,689 Speaker 2: a lot of people like you cannot expect to really 659 00:30:29,699 --> 00:30:30,469 Speaker 2: have that like 660 00:30:31,349 --> 00:30:34,060 Speaker 2: routine. Like I'm going to have work life balance every day, 661 00:30:34,069 --> 00:30:36,540 Speaker 2: kind of unrealistic. 662 00:30:36,930 --> 00:30:40,219 Speaker 1: I like that things about being clear about more than 663 00:30:40,229 --> 00:30:43,709 Speaker 1: non negotiables and like the boundaries for me, I think 664 00:30:43,719 --> 00:30:46,540 Speaker 1: that's the most important and not maybe the constant seeking 665 00:30:46,550 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: out of the balance because I think the seeking out 666 00:30:48,650 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: the balance that maybe leads to like frustration, right? And 667 00:30:51,890 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: unreal expectations. Yeah, I 668 00:30:53,699 --> 00:30:54,339 Speaker 2: think work 669 00:30:54,349 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 2: life balance 670 00:30:55,869 --> 00:30:59,609 Speaker 2: looks different on everyone. Someone who is more work driven, 671 00:30:59,619 --> 00:31:03,089 Speaker 2: then the 60% 40% to you could be a nightmare. 672 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:06,410 Speaker 2: So don't base your balance and how much you're living 673 00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:09,130 Speaker 2: life or how fulfilling it is on someone else's ratio. 674 00:31:09,349 --> 00:31:11,689 Speaker 2: Like as long as you feel like you are not 675 00:31:11,780 --> 00:31:13,530 Speaker 2: sacrificing one or the other. 676 00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:16,390 Speaker 2: And I think you've already achieved the balance. I don't 677 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,189 Speaker 2: like like what Beyonce don't stress too much about finding 678 00:31:19,199 --> 00:31:22,319 Speaker 2: the balance. It comes when you feel kind of like 679 00:31:22,329 --> 00:31:23,550 Speaker 2: not spread thin 680 00:31:23,719 --> 00:31:27,020 Speaker 1: and don't judge others if they have a different ratio 681 00:31:27,150 --> 00:31:31,349 Speaker 1: than you because everyone has their own different high in charts. 682 00:31:32,550 --> 00:31:34,530 Speaker 2: So thanks for joining us on this episode of the 683 00:31:34,540 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: Hot Pot. You can also listen to us on Apple podcast, 684 00:31:37,290 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 2: Spotify and me, listen and subscribe to us if you 685 00:31:39,729 --> 00:31:42,079 Speaker 2: haven't already. And of course, a big thank you as 686 00:31:42,089 --> 00:31:45,089 Speaker 2: well to Dion Ceo of Love Bonito for joining us. 687 00:31:45,099 --> 00:31:45,469 Speaker 2: Thank you 688 00:31:45,479 --> 00:31:46,229 Speaker 2: for having me 689 00:31:46,579 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: and we'll see you guys on the next episode. Bye bye. 690 00:31:51,770 --> 00:31:54,979 Speaker 2: Oh, I just need my choker open. Oh my God. 691 00:31:54,989 --> 00:31:55,530 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 692 00:31:59,459 --> 00:31:59,969 Speaker 2: Rolling. 693 00:31:59,979 --> 00:32:04,219 Speaker 2: Rolling. Right. I want to see this the first time, right? 694 00:32:04,229 --> 00:32:06,089 Speaker 2: But it's not the first time it has happened. 695 00:32:06,099 --> 00:32:08,170 Speaker 1: I'm glad that's not LB necklace 696 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:14,310 Speaker 2: that on it. Like inside my man. Now. Hello, everyone. 697 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,359 Speaker 2: Welcome to the hot pot where we hop into different 698 00:32:16,369 --> 00:32:19,599 Speaker 2: parts of spaces people find themselves in during life's transitions. 699 00:32:19,609 --> 00:32:20,849 Speaker 2: I'm Joey. I'm Q 700 00:32:23,890 --> 00:32:34,969 Speaker 2: the saliva into the C and C. I'm so sorry, 701 00:32:34,979 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: you're next to me for that. Like I'm not ok. 702 00:32:37,969 --> 00:32:40,020 Speaker 2: This normally doesn't happen. Ok.