1 00:00:02,809 --> 00:00:05,090 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:12,750 --> 00:00:16,189 Speaker 1: Hi guys, Teresa Tang. Here, many of us have traveled 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:21,969 Speaker 1: bucket lists, myself, included destinations that are mysterious magical, maybe 4 00:00:21,979 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: out of the ordinary for some Bhutan checks. All those boxes. 5 00:00:30,620 --> 00:00:34,439 Speaker 1: Bhutan is for you, Bhutan. A place of happiness. 6 00:00:40,098 --> 00:00:43,758 Speaker 1: That's part of a promotional video from tourism. Bhutan. The 7 00:00:43,770 --> 00:00:47,259 Speaker 1: remote Himalayan kingdom has been described as being equal parts 8 00:00:47,270 --> 00:00:51,439 Speaker 1: frozen in time and forward looking, but some feel it's 9 00:00:51,450 --> 00:00:55,159 Speaker 1: not moving forward fast enough young people are leaving for 10 00:00:55,169 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: better opportunities and there is growing economic unhappiness in a 11 00:00:59,049 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: place dubbed the happiest place on earth. Leaders. Know things 12 00:01:03,250 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: have to change 13 00:01:04,410 --> 00:01:06,870 Speaker 1: in this week's episode. We are turning to CN A 14 00:01:06,879 --> 00:01:10,989 Speaker 1: correspondent Saky Ssam Butt. He is based in Bangkok, but 15 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,940 Speaker 1: he spent a week in Bhutan on a special assignment 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,449 Speaker 1: exploring how the country plans to embrace the future without 17 00:01:17,459 --> 00:01:21,209 Speaker 1: letting go of its past. Sth Welcome back to the podcast. 18 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,110 Speaker 1: I am thrilled that you are on to talk to 19 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,110 Speaker 1: me today because Bhutan really is one of the places 20 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,309 Speaker 1: I would love to visit in this lifetime. 21 00:01:30,569 --> 00:01:33,580 Speaker 1: What about you? How exciting was this assignment for you 22 00:01:33,589 --> 00:01:37,139 Speaker 1: personally I honestly had to say that Bhutan wasn't on 23 00:01:37,150 --> 00:01:40,669 Speaker 1: my radar when the editors approached me for this assignment, 24 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: because usually I'm, as you just mentioned earlier, focused on 25 00:01:44,410 --> 00:01:47,750 Speaker 1: Thailand and solely on Thailand. So when they approached me 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: asking me if I was interested to report outside of Thailand, 27 00:01:50,449 --> 00:01:53,669 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, sure, I'm interested. Where are we going, Bhutan? Oh, 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,279 Speaker 1: that was my second reaction because, you know, as you 29 00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:57,910 Speaker 1: just mentioned, it, it's Bhutan is a country 30 00:01:58,014 --> 00:02:00,154 Speaker 1: that is very steeped in mystery for a lot of 31 00:02:00,165 --> 00:02:03,514 Speaker 1: people and also for the outside world. And surprisingly, also 32 00:02:03,525 --> 00:02:06,794 Speaker 1: it was not the easiest country to research for because 33 00:02:07,044 --> 00:02:09,244 Speaker 1: of course, I had a couple of months to prepare 34 00:02:09,255 --> 00:02:11,014 Speaker 1: for that and it felt like I was back in 35 00:02:11,024 --> 00:02:14,705 Speaker 1: university every evening studying up reading books and everything. But, 36 00:02:14,714 --> 00:02:15,073 Speaker 1: you know, 37 00:02:15,589 --> 00:02:17,500 Speaker 1: it wasn't that easy to find good books that are 38 00:02:17,508 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: not somebody's non Bhutanese fantasy about the country if you 39 00:02:21,130 --> 00:02:22,788 Speaker 1: catch my drift. So I had to look up at 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,500 Speaker 1: very many newspaper articles, many academic papers to even get 41 00:02:27,508 --> 00:02:30,538 Speaker 1: an idea, to understand what this country about and also, 42 00:02:30,550 --> 00:02:32,899 Speaker 1: you know, watch Bhutanese TV as well just to get 43 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:35,350 Speaker 1: a feeling for that country. So, and the more I 44 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,279 Speaker 1: read into this and the more I also read up 45 00:02:38,288 --> 00:02:40,490 Speaker 1: about the reason why we actually went there in the 46 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:43,750 Speaker 1: first place, the more intrigued, but also the more excited 47 00:02:43,758 --> 00:02:45,410 Speaker 1: I was actually to go to that country. 48 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:48,070 Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, not many people I know have actually 49 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:48,929 Speaker 1: been to Bhutan 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,559 Speaker 1: and I feel like there are barriers to entry to 51 00:02:52,570 --> 00:02:56,559 Speaker 1: that country compared to other places. How important is tourism 52 00:02:56,570 --> 00:02:59,220 Speaker 1: to Bhutan when you were there? Did you see many tourists? 53 00:02:59,389 --> 00:03:02,279 Speaker 1: It is a vital part of the economy and also 54 00:03:02,288 --> 00:03:05,630 Speaker 1: even more importantly, a vital source of the foreign revenues, 55 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,559 Speaker 1: you know, to have foreign money to buy things. Tourism 56 00:03:08,570 --> 00:03:10,579 Speaker 1: is an important factor of the country, but it has 57 00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:12,660 Speaker 1: just been opened up since the 19 seventies. So about 58 00:03:12,669 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: 50 years ago, it definitely went up and up and 59 00:03:15,449 --> 00:03:17,899 Speaker 1: up and up over the decades, especially since the tourism 60 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:18,758 Speaker 1: industry was privatized 61 00:03:19,345 --> 00:03:22,304 Speaker 1: in the 19 nineties. And at the peak, we had 62 00:03:22,434 --> 00:03:28,383 Speaker 1: 350,000 tourists before the pandemic in 2019. Ok. That of course, 63 00:03:28,395 --> 00:03:30,913 Speaker 1: pales in comparison when you take a country like Thailand, 64 00:03:30,925 --> 00:03:33,695 Speaker 1: for example, where it was almost 40 million and when 65 00:03:33,705 --> 00:03:36,115 Speaker 1: I was there. So of course, it's still after the pandemic, 66 00:03:36,125 --> 00:03:39,255 Speaker 1: the country is still picking up itself like many other countries. 67 00:03:39,264 --> 00:03:42,225 Speaker 1: And so was its tourism industry. I definitely saw a 68 00:03:42,235 --> 00:03:44,925 Speaker 1: lot of tourists. I definitely saw a lot of Western tourists, 69 00:03:44,934 --> 00:03:47,925 Speaker 1: older western tourists, a lot of Indian tourists as well. 70 00:03:47,934 --> 00:03:48,255 Speaker 1: But 71 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:50,710 Speaker 1: the country is definitely big enough that you can avoid 72 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,479 Speaker 1: each other if you want to. But we also have 73 00:03:53,490 --> 00:03:56,940 Speaker 1: talked to the tourism officials there and they definitely tell 74 00:03:56,949 --> 00:04:00,220 Speaker 1: us that classically, as I mentioned, it's the Indian tourists, 75 00:04:00,229 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: all the western tourists, but the profile is changing, 76 00:04:04,059 --> 00:04:07,759 Speaker 1: the profile of the guest has definitely changed. We see 77 00:04:07,770 --> 00:04:10,250 Speaker 1: the length of stay increasing, we see the guest spending 78 00:04:10,259 --> 00:04:13,928 Speaker 1: power has definitely increased here. Um I also think there's 79 00:04:13,940 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: been a really big push by the industry to uplift 80 00:04:16,329 --> 00:04:19,488 Speaker 1: their standards and services. So for instance, really focus on 81 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:22,649 Speaker 1: providing better quality food, better quality experiences. 82 00:04:23,149 --> 00:04:27,049 Speaker 1: The land of the Thunder Dragon is not cheap to visit. 83 00:04:27,059 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: I know there is actually something called a sustainable development 84 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:34,179 Speaker 1: fee and that's where tourists have to pay $100 per 85 00:04:34,190 --> 00:04:37,589 Speaker 1: day to be inside the country. And you know, to me, 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,969 Speaker 1: it sort of sounded like a money grab, but the 87 00:04:39,980 --> 00:04:42,790 Speaker 1: country insists that it's not take a listen to this 88 00:04:42,799 --> 00:04:44,329 Speaker 1: clip from tourism Bhutan 89 00:04:45,260 --> 00:04:48,529 Speaker 1: in Bhutan. We consider guests to our country as more 90 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:53,380 Speaker 1: than tourists. Guests are partners in our progress. The sustainable 91 00:04:53,390 --> 00:04:57,179 Speaker 1: development fee stf is more than just a daily levy. 92 00:04:57,339 --> 00:05:00,459 Speaker 1: It is a vital step towards a sustainable and flourishing 93 00:05:00,470 --> 00:05:01,669 Speaker 1: future for everyone. 94 00:05:02,790 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: So, so what exactly is this money being used for? Well, 95 00:05:06,209 --> 00:05:08,399 Speaker 1: I mean, some call it a fee, some call it 96 00:05:08,410 --> 00:05:10,820 Speaker 1: a levy. Some call it a tax in essence is 97 00:05:10,970 --> 00:05:13,899 Speaker 1: the sustainable development fee. I mean, the name already implies 98 00:05:13,910 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: that the money is being used to keep the country 99 00:05:16,369 --> 00:05:19,649 Speaker 1: sustainable so that it isn't being wrecked by tourists or 100 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:22,519 Speaker 1: even mass tourism. It's being used for a bunch of 101 00:05:22,529 --> 00:05:26,010 Speaker 1: different projects. For example, for education, for health care, which 102 00:05:26,019 --> 00:05:28,170 Speaker 1: is free in that country, for natural 103 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:32,549 Speaker 1: innovation efforts, for infrastructure. So basically, the people of Bhutan 104 00:05:32,630 --> 00:05:37,230 Speaker 1: should profit from the incoming tourists. That's the idea behind it. 105 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: So that's why they are taking that money and giving 106 00:05:40,730 --> 00:05:43,988 Speaker 1: it back to the people. But $100 per day per 107 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,500 Speaker 1: person sounds like a lot. Well, before the pandemic, it 108 00:05:46,510 --> 00:05:50,549 Speaker 1: was twice as much. So $200. So, and if you 109 00:05:50,559 --> 00:05:52,469 Speaker 1: can imagine, then you really have to count how many 110 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:53,829 Speaker 1: days you actually want to stay there. 111 00:05:54,209 --> 00:05:58,059 Speaker 1: Yes. OK. Speaking of the people there, in one part 112 00:05:58,070 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: of your coverage, you explain how the tourism industry, in 113 00:06:01,488 --> 00:06:04,149 Speaker 1: fact the entire private sector as a whole, it's seeing 114 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,549 Speaker 1: a shortage of skilled workers. So I'm curious about the 115 00:06:07,559 --> 00:06:10,390 Speaker 1: young people in the country. I know they're leaving, many 116 00:06:10,399 --> 00:06:12,450 Speaker 1: are going to Australia. Can you tell me what their 117 00:06:12,459 --> 00:06:15,989 Speaker 1: biggest grievance is? Well, they can't find jobs, they can't 118 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,589 Speaker 1: find opportunities. So I think that's something that not only 119 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,979 Speaker 1: Bhutan is facing but many other countries, but in Bhutan, 120 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,630 Speaker 1: there are many factors compounding that 121 00:06:23,059 --> 00:06:25,980 Speaker 1: a it is a very young country and also b 122 00:06:25,988 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: therefore there's a high unemployment rate at one point it 123 00:06:28,850 --> 00:06:32,170 Speaker 1: was 29% of all youth that can find jobs. And, 124 00:06:32,589 --> 00:06:34,850 Speaker 1: and this is also part of my research, you wonder like, 125 00:06:34,859 --> 00:06:37,500 Speaker 1: why is that and there is one of the reasons 126 00:06:37,510 --> 00:06:39,100 Speaker 1: that it is being pointed out is there is a 127 00:06:39,109 --> 00:06:42,529 Speaker 1: mismatch on the labor market you have, as I mentioned before, 128 00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:46,678 Speaker 1: education is free in Bhutan and relatively high quality as well. 129 00:06:46,779 --> 00:06:50,140 Speaker 1: So that means that you have very well educated people 130 00:06:50,149 --> 00:06:52,178 Speaker 1: coming out of the system. But the jobs that are 131 00:06:52,190 --> 00:06:53,859 Speaker 1: on the market, they don't match them, they are low 132 00:06:53,869 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: skilled jobs like that. So 133 00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:57,786 Speaker 1: the running gag in Bhutan that I've heard a lot 134 00:06:57,795 --> 00:07:00,104 Speaker 1: is that everybody wants to become a civil servant because 135 00:07:00,115 --> 00:07:02,976 Speaker 1: that's the job that matches their skill level. But then 136 00:07:02,985 --> 00:07:05,425 Speaker 1: those people that don't want to become a civil servant, 137 00:07:05,436 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: there's nothing much else left there. So that's why 1% 138 00:07:09,045 --> 00:07:13,925 Speaker 1: at times, 1% of about 750,000 people of Bhutan is 139 00:07:13,936 --> 00:07:16,696 Speaker 1: in Australia. So that's quite a lot. You have a big, 140 00:07:16,705 --> 00:07:18,145 Speaker 1: huge diaspora of B 141 00:07:18,562 --> 00:07:22,622 Speaker 1: people in Australia. I was asked also why Australia specifically 142 00:07:22,832 --> 00:07:25,462 Speaker 1: because a a lot of people are going to study there. 143 00:07:25,471 --> 00:07:28,242 Speaker 1: It was relatively easy for Bhutan to get a student 144 00:07:28,252 --> 00:07:31,351 Speaker 1: visa there. And there's also Bhutanese have a very high 145 00:07:31,361 --> 00:07:33,421 Speaker 1: English proficiency. So of course, they would go to a 146 00:07:33,432 --> 00:07:36,782 Speaker 1: country where English is being natively spoken. So that's why 147 00:07:36,981 --> 00:07:39,821 Speaker 1: they are going further away from Bhutan than for example, 148 00:07:39,832 --> 00:07:40,981 Speaker 1: neighboring countries 149 00:07:41,690 --> 00:07:44,750 Speaker 1: I watched your TV reports. And one thing that surprised 150 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,190 Speaker 1: me was that Bhutan is actually eager to shake off 151 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,109 Speaker 1: its Shangri LA moniker and it's promising a new utopia. 152 00:07:52,359 --> 00:07:55,820 Speaker 1: Are you convinced of that idea? What does the future 153 00:07:55,829 --> 00:07:56,470 Speaker 1: look like? 154 00:07:56,890 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean, the reason why we went to Bhutan is 155 00:07:59,170 --> 00:08:02,049 Speaker 1: that they have a grand pitch, not only for us 156 00:08:02,059 --> 00:08:04,799 Speaker 1: but for the world. We talked about the economic problems, 157 00:08:04,809 --> 00:08:08,429 Speaker 1: we talked about the youth running away and they realized 158 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,809 Speaker 1: that something needs to change. That the king was a 159 00:08:10,820 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: very revered monarch in that country. He held a National 160 00:08:14,049 --> 00:08:17,269 Speaker 1: Day speech late last year, basically saying that yeah, we 161 00:08:17,279 --> 00:08:19,670 Speaker 1: need to change our economy. Otherwise everybody 162 00:08:19,779 --> 00:08:23,119 Speaker 1: running away and we need to rebuild our economy. So 163 00:08:23,130 --> 00:08:26,019 Speaker 1: those that are outside of the country will have something 164 00:08:26,029 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: to come back for us. And one of the key 165 00:08:28,489 --> 00:08:32,039 Speaker 1: pillar of that economic renewal is the so called delay 166 00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:35,218 Speaker 1: for mindfulness city. It is supposed to be this big 167 00:08:35,229 --> 00:08:39,109 Speaker 1: mega project, this new special administrative zone and economic zone 168 00:08:39,119 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: in the south of the country bordering with India's Assam region. 169 00:08:43,018 --> 00:08:46,848 Speaker 1: And it is supposed to be this modern technological city 170 00:08:46,859 --> 00:08:49,369 Speaker 1: but still very green. And that is their pitch to 171 00:08:49,379 --> 00:08:51,508 Speaker 1: the world, not only for the Bhutanese to come back, 172 00:08:51,518 --> 00:08:54,008 Speaker 1: but also for people to come in and to invest 173 00:08:54,028 --> 00:08:56,598 Speaker 1: in this country. So this is why we were there 174 00:08:56,609 --> 00:08:58,929 Speaker 1: and this is why we were looking at it. And 175 00:08:58,939 --> 00:09:01,908 Speaker 1: when I was seeing those mockups, when I was seeing 176 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:05,448 Speaker 1: those artist renditions, I kind of felt like 177 00:09:05,809 --> 00:09:07,630 Speaker 1: it's a little bit too good to be true. Yeah, 178 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,710 Speaker 1: it's pretty ambitious. Yeah, it looks like a Himalayan Wakanda in, 179 00:09:10,719 --> 00:09:14,409 Speaker 1: in a sense or a modern Himalayan utopia. So I 180 00:09:14,419 --> 00:09:18,829 Speaker 1: went to Bhutan with this skepticism with this careful approach, 181 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,669 Speaker 1: you know, not to be wow and dazzled by the 182 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,250 Speaker 1: idea and by the pitch of it, and we met 183 00:09:25,260 --> 00:09:27,599 Speaker 1: the former Prime Minister of Bhutan who is part of 184 00:09:27,609 --> 00:09:31,859 Speaker 1: this uh G for mindfulness city project. And I basically 185 00:09:31,869 --> 00:09:34,478 Speaker 1: straight up ask him, um you know, why are you 186 00:09:34,489 --> 00:09:35,299 Speaker 1: thinking so big? 187 00:09:36,130 --> 00:09:40,500 Speaker 2: We must have something that is unprecedented. Something that the 188 00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:41,940 Speaker 2: whole world can look up to. 189 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:47,909 Speaker 2: On that note, many link mindfulness. When we say mindfulness 190 00:09:47,919 --> 00:09:53,450 Speaker 2: to spirituality, to meditation, peace of mind. For me, I 191 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:57,349 Speaker 2: personally feel mindfulness city would be that we all should 192 00:09:57,359 --> 00:10:00,090 Speaker 2: be mindful about what the 21st century needs 193 00:10:00,859 --> 00:10:03,150 Speaker 2: to be mindful about what the world needs to be 194 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:03,979 Speaker 2: mindful about 195 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: our dreams and to be mindful about what we should do, right? 196 00:10:08,770 --> 00:10:10,309 Speaker 2: And what we should not be doing. 197 00:10:11,260 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: Bhutan has been marching to the beat of its own drum. 198 00:10:14,530 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: Really with the government being guided by a gross national 199 00:10:18,210 --> 00:10:19,799 Speaker 1: happiness philosophy. 200 00:10:20,090 --> 00:10:23,729 Speaker 1: I'm curious where this index fits in this new vision 201 00:10:23,739 --> 00:10:27,030 Speaker 1: for Bhutan. Do you think that philosophy will still guide 202 00:10:27,039 --> 00:10:30,690 Speaker 1: public policy there? You kind of sometimes read headlines saying 203 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:33,469 Speaker 1: Bhutan is the happiest country in the world, something along 204 00:10:33,479 --> 00:10:36,650 Speaker 1: those lines. But you might get a misconception that is 205 00:10:36,659 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: about your personal happiness that whether or not oh I 206 00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:41,739 Speaker 1: woke up and I'm feeling good that kind of way. 207 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,390 Speaker 1: That's not what it is. Measuring the happiness index is 208 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,348 Speaker 1: pitched as an alternative to the GDP. So gross 209 00:10:48,575 --> 00:10:52,414 Speaker 1: domestic product that only measures economic growth. But they are 210 00:10:52,424 --> 00:10:55,625 Speaker 1: taking a different and more holistic view of it that 211 00:10:55,635 --> 00:10:57,895 Speaker 1: in order for people to be really happy as in 212 00:10:57,905 --> 00:11:00,635 Speaker 1: the population, it not only needs economic growth, it needs, 213 00:11:00,645 --> 00:11:03,724 Speaker 1: for example, access to health care, it needs access to education, 214 00:11:03,734 --> 00:11:07,715 Speaker 1: it needs, for example, also the state of the environment 215 00:11:07,724 --> 00:11:11,505 Speaker 1: and the natural conservation which Bhutan is very proud of 216 00:11:11,515 --> 00:11:14,244 Speaker 1: in that country. So it's been in development and it's 217 00:11:14,255 --> 00:11:16,955 Speaker 1: been in use for quite a while whether 218 00:11:17,059 --> 00:11:20,460 Speaker 1: this is an effective metric that the debate is still on. 219 00:11:20,570 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: But curiously enough, many of these aspects have been reflected 220 00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:27,238 Speaker 1: in the sustainable development Goals of the United Nations, for example. 221 00:11:27,380 --> 00:11:31,718 Speaker 1: So there's definitely some inspiration for the world to your question. 222 00:11:31,729 --> 00:11:34,718 Speaker 1: How does this fit to this mega project? This delay 223 00:11:34,729 --> 00:11:38,380 Speaker 1: for Mindfulness city, I mean the name already implies that right, 224 00:11:38,390 --> 00:11:41,479 Speaker 1: that it is in there, that is a key pillar 225 00:11:41,489 --> 00:11:44,140 Speaker 1: of this project that they want to do things differently. 226 00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: We are seeing so many 227 00:11:45,544 --> 00:11:48,405 Speaker 1: mega projects, these mega cities being built everywhere in the 228 00:11:48,414 --> 00:11:52,075 Speaker 1: world and it's just going larger, bigger, higher that kind 229 00:11:52,085 --> 00:11:53,984 Speaker 1: of way. And this is definitely not what they want, 230 00:11:53,994 --> 00:11:56,864 Speaker 1: they want to show that things can be differently for that, 231 00:11:56,875 --> 00:11:59,655 Speaker 1: especially for example, that you can have an urban living 232 00:11:59,664 --> 00:12:05,343 Speaker 1: space in harmony with nature, but also modern technology where 233 00:12:05,354 --> 00:12:09,474 Speaker 1: ancient traditional culture is also still being preserved. And there's 234 00:12:09,484 --> 00:12:13,804 Speaker 1: actually a symbiosis between all these things. And when 235 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,419 Speaker 1: I went there and when I talked to the people 236 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:21,539 Speaker 1: there and the leaders behind this project, I just kept thinking, OK, 237 00:12:21,549 --> 00:12:25,358 Speaker 1: is this supposed to be an antithesis and alternative pitch 238 00:12:25,369 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: to modern day capitalism? Is this something for people whose 239 00:12:29,210 --> 00:12:32,030 Speaker 1: religion is money because they need investors, right? But there 240 00:12:32,039 --> 00:12:34,569 Speaker 1: are people that have this mindset that their religion is money, 241 00:12:34,580 --> 00:12:38,239 Speaker 1: that their mantra is act fast break things and don't 242 00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:38,500 Speaker 1: care 243 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:41,070 Speaker 1: what they actually break in that process as well. It's 244 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,210 Speaker 1: interesting because we heard the former Prime Minister, they are 245 00:12:44,250 --> 00:12:47,728 Speaker 1: talking about that and he basically straight up said that yes, 246 00:12:47,739 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: it is open for everybody, but we will be vetting 247 00:12:50,890 --> 00:12:54,140 Speaker 1: about who is actually investing in this. And he himself 248 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:57,569 Speaker 1: is of the opinion that a conventional capitalist, if that 249 00:12:57,580 --> 00:13:00,739 Speaker 1: what you will that a conventional capitalist will probably not 250 00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:02,719 Speaker 1: be happy in the mind from the city. 251 00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:05,580 Speaker 1: So you spoke to the former Prime Minister and you 252 00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:08,209 Speaker 1: also sat down with the current Prime Minister for an 253 00:13:08,219 --> 00:13:11,729 Speaker 1: exclusive interview. Now, before we hear from him, how hard 254 00:13:11,739 --> 00:13:14,630 Speaker 1: was it to secure this one on one interview? What 255 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,049 Speaker 1: was it like? Meeting him in person? 256 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,270 Speaker 1: It was very interesting because when we were researching and 257 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,380 Speaker 1: producing and reaching out to the Bhutanese people since we 258 00:13:22,390 --> 00:13:25,150 Speaker 1: were invited already to see this big project, I thought 259 00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:27,500 Speaker 1: to myself, well, why not talk to the leadership since 260 00:13:27,510 --> 00:13:30,419 Speaker 1: this seems to be a project that is being supported 261 00:13:30,429 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: and heralded by the whole government, why not go straight 262 00:13:33,289 --> 00:13:34,260 Speaker 1: to the top? So 263 00:13:34,354 --> 00:13:37,885 Speaker 1: that's why we asked to interview the Prime Minister. It 264 00:13:37,895 --> 00:13:41,205 Speaker 1: was confirmed rather late in the process, but we eventually 265 00:13:41,215 --> 00:13:43,744 Speaker 1: got there. And then of course, you start researching about 266 00:13:43,755 --> 00:13:45,734 Speaker 1: the guy, right? So the current Prime Minister of Bhutan 267 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:49,125 Speaker 1: is somebody called Shary top and he was Prime Minister 268 00:13:49,135 --> 00:13:52,174 Speaker 1: already a decade ago. And from that time, 269 00:13:52,469 --> 00:13:54,569 Speaker 1: the first thing that I saw him when I was 270 00:13:54,580 --> 00:13:57,510 Speaker 1: researching were on youtube, his TED talks. He held many 271 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: TED talks, talking about his country and talking about the 272 00:14:00,570 --> 00:14:04,770 Speaker 1: environment because he is an engineer by trade, but also 273 00:14:04,780 --> 00:14:09,179 Speaker 1: well known for his advocacy for environmental protection. And he 274 00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:11,809 Speaker 1: is a great orator. He was definitely these TED talks 275 00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: were super 276 00:14:13,176 --> 00:14:17,405 Speaker 1: aging when he was talking about the harmony between his culture, 277 00:14:17,416 --> 00:14:21,786 Speaker 1: his traditions, but also the nature and the consequences of 278 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:25,806 Speaker 1: climate change that his country has to face. And when 279 00:14:25,815 --> 00:14:27,796 Speaker 1: I met him, well, you know, you have to keep 280 00:14:27,806 --> 00:14:30,226 Speaker 1: in mind that we were in Bhutan for a week, 281 00:14:30,296 --> 00:14:33,486 Speaker 1: all interviews however, were scheduled across 282 00:14:33,661 --> 00:14:36,111 Speaker 1: two days. So we had nine interviews scheduled across two 283 00:14:36,122 --> 00:14:39,692 Speaker 1: days and he was the very last on the second day, 284 00:14:40,081 --> 00:14:43,731 Speaker 1: on the second day in the evening. So even though 285 00:14:43,742 --> 00:14:46,771 Speaker 1: you have been going through this gauntlet of interviews across 286 00:14:46,781 --> 00:14:48,771 Speaker 1: two days, you still had to keep sharp at the 287 00:14:48,781 --> 00:14:50,841 Speaker 1: very end of it. But let me tell you, it 288 00:14:50,851 --> 00:14:53,632 Speaker 1: was not that easy, but still we persevere rep powered 289 00:14:53,642 --> 00:14:54,161 Speaker 1: through and 290 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: when I met him, well, it was the end of 291 00:14:56,890 --> 00:14:58,659 Speaker 1: the day for all of us. What time was it 292 00:14:58,690 --> 00:15:02,169 Speaker 1: around 5 to 6 p.m. It was already getting dark. 293 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: Let's put it this way. So that's why that's why 294 00:15:04,289 --> 00:15:05,830 Speaker 1: we had to get warmed up to each other a 295 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,789 Speaker 1: little bit. And I think that he had the concern 296 00:15:08,969 --> 00:15:11,559 Speaker 1: that this was going to be one of those interviews 297 00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:13,169 Speaker 1: where you just cut two minutes out of it and 298 00:15:13,179 --> 00:15:16,130 Speaker 1: that's it. But I had to convince a little bit. No, 299 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:17,359 Speaker 1: this is supposed to be 300 00:15:17,599 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: a longer interview that I want to actually have a 301 00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:23,369 Speaker 1: conversation and a deeper conversation of him. That's why, for example, 302 00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:25,820 Speaker 1: I brought up the question about, is this an antithesis 303 00:15:25,830 --> 00:15:28,539 Speaker 1: to capitalism? So the more it went on, I think, 304 00:15:28,549 --> 00:15:31,700 Speaker 1: the more he warmed up to the conversation and that's 305 00:15:31,710 --> 00:15:34,229 Speaker 1: why I think we had a very good conversation about 306 00:15:34,239 --> 00:15:36,489 Speaker 1: a lot of different things. Not only about Nikki Le 307 00:15:36,539 --> 00:15:38,619 Speaker 1: from mind for the city, but also about the image 308 00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:41,179 Speaker 1: of his country, whether or not it's too mythify or 309 00:15:41,190 --> 00:15:43,190 Speaker 1: too exotic in the eyes of the world. 310 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,770 Speaker 1: So that's why we have this half hour conversation that 311 00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:49,510 Speaker 1: you can all see on youtube in its entirety. Yeah, 312 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: you covered a lot of ground with him and you 313 00:15:51,770 --> 00:15:55,229 Speaker 1: heard sci you can watch this extended version of that 314 00:15:55,239 --> 00:15:58,979 Speaker 1: conversation on youtube also CN A dot Asia. Now, one 315 00:15:58,989 --> 00:16:01,770 Speaker 1: of the things you asked him, Sakai was how Bhutan 316 00:16:01,780 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: navigates its relationship between its two massive neighbors, China and India. 317 00:16:06,979 --> 00:16:08,849 Speaker 1: What stood out to you about what he said, 318 00:16:09,510 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: this was a topic that wasn't the easiest to approach. 319 00:16:13,770 --> 00:16:17,059 Speaker 1: I think everybody that we talked to about the big neighbors, 320 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:19,559 Speaker 1: you could definitely tell that they were very careful, 321 00:16:19,809 --> 00:16:22,989 Speaker 1: um very guarded in their answers because the narrative is 322 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,270 Speaker 1: always that it's a small landlocked country nestled between giants, right? 323 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,469 Speaker 1: So that's why I think that they were treading a 324 00:16:29,479 --> 00:16:33,340 Speaker 1: very careful line not to sway one way or the other, 325 00:16:33,349 --> 00:16:37,090 Speaker 1: you know, to put it into context. Bhutan, diplomatically speaking 326 00:16:37,229 --> 00:16:40,549 Speaker 1: doesn't have the biggest leverage. It has diplomatic relationships with 327 00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:42,669 Speaker 1: only a few dozen countries in the world. There are 328 00:16:42,679 --> 00:16:43,580 Speaker 1: only a handful 329 00:16:43,791 --> 00:16:47,382 Speaker 1: of countries that have embassies in Bhutan as well. But 330 00:16:47,392 --> 00:16:50,132 Speaker 1: India is the oldest friend, they have the most long 331 00:16:50,142 --> 00:16:55,101 Speaker 1: standing diplomatic relationship going many, many, many decades in many ways. 332 00:16:55,111 --> 00:16:58,142 Speaker 1: It's being seen that India is somewhat like the big 333 00:16:58,151 --> 00:17:02,012 Speaker 1: brother of Bhutan because they are the biggest economic trading 334 00:17:02,021 --> 00:17:05,411 Speaker 1: partner in the beginning of the diplomatic relationships. India was 335 00:17:05,421 --> 00:17:07,370 Speaker 1: quote unquote guiding Bhutan in its form 336 00:17:07,473 --> 00:17:11,572 Speaker 1: policy. But then compare that to the north to China. 337 00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:16,114 Speaker 1: There are no official diplomatic relations whatsoever. However, there have 338 00:17:16,124 --> 00:17:21,673 Speaker 1: been disagreements and disputes about border demarcation between Bhutan and 339 00:17:21,683 --> 00:17:25,292 Speaker 1: China and India as well. And especially in the triangle 340 00:17:25,384 --> 00:17:27,134 Speaker 1: in the west of the country where we had this 341 00:17:27,144 --> 00:17:30,364 Speaker 1: dock lamp stand off in 2017 where you had a 342 00:17:30,374 --> 00:17:31,244 Speaker 1: Chinese soldiers 343 00:17:31,306 --> 00:17:34,225 Speaker 1: and Indian soldiers facing each other for two months. It 344 00:17:34,234 --> 00:17:38,765 Speaker 1: was resolved relatively peacefully. But there's still border talks between 345 00:17:38,776 --> 00:17:41,666 Speaker 1: China and Bhutan. They have been ongoing and they still 346 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:44,306 Speaker 1: keep continuing. So this is also what makes India a 347 00:17:44,316 --> 00:17:47,806 Speaker 1: little bit nervous about whether or not China is encroaching 348 00:17:47,816 --> 00:17:50,504 Speaker 1: on to Bhutan one way or the other. But enough 349 00:17:50,515 --> 00:17:52,416 Speaker 1: for me, let's, let's hear about what the Prime Minister 350 00:17:52,426 --> 00:17:54,525 Speaker 1: had to say is what he's thinking about Bhutan's place 351 00:17:54,536 --> 00:17:55,004 Speaker 1: in the world. 352 00:17:55,729 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: Bhutan is a small landlocked country sandwiched between giants all 353 00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:06,030 Speaker 1: around us, not just India and China Bangladesh and Nepal, 354 00:18:06,959 --> 00:18:11,619 Speaker 1: hugely populated countries, densely populated countries. 355 00:18:12,349 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: And we if anything probably are underpopulated, we have a 356 00:18:16,810 --> 00:18:17,969 Speaker 1: very small population. 357 00:18:18,949 --> 00:18:19,609 Speaker 1: So 358 00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:23,089 Speaker 1: we have our own part 359 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:26,619 Speaker 1: and we navigate our own path. 360 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,060 Speaker 1: So in that sense, it's kind of interesting when you 361 00:18:31,069 --> 00:18:34,060 Speaker 1: think about it, what hasn't been said there, what they 362 00:18:34,069 --> 00:18:36,969 Speaker 1: didn't tell us, I think that's the more important thing 363 00:18:36,979 --> 00:18:39,939 Speaker 1: and this is something that is an ongoing development that 364 00:18:39,949 --> 00:18:44,260 Speaker 1: you are seeing with Bhutan between India and China, even 365 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:44,420 Speaker 1: though 366 00:18:44,494 --> 00:18:47,814 Speaker 1: having said that this Prime Minister definitely has a very 367 00:18:47,824 --> 00:18:51,304 Speaker 1: close relationship to Modi. Yeah, it was such a fascinating series. 368 00:18:51,314 --> 00:18:54,035 Speaker 1: You cover geopolitics, you cover the brain drain, you cover 369 00:18:54,045 --> 00:18:57,505 Speaker 1: the future. You spoke to so many experts and locals 370 00:18:57,515 --> 00:19:00,614 Speaker 1: and now you've actually had some time to digest everything 371 00:19:00,625 --> 00:19:01,395 Speaker 1: that you've learned. 372 00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:03,750 Speaker 1: So I want you to talk to me about what 373 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,550 Speaker 1: your sense is of where Bhutan is headed. Do you 374 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,050 Speaker 1: think the country is going to find that equilibrium that 375 00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:11,609 Speaker 1: it's looking for, you know, moving forward? But also still 376 00:19:11,619 --> 00:19:14,379 Speaker 1: holding on to his past? I think everybody is kind 377 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:17,530 Speaker 1: of doing that, right? Everybody is trying to find this equilibrium, 378 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:20,718 Speaker 1: this mindful balance. This is a word that I've used 379 00:19:20,729 --> 00:19:23,109 Speaker 1: a lot in that series of reports that we have 380 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,270 Speaker 1: produced from there. I think that, you know, the the 381 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,869 Speaker 1: the reason why I for example, asked the Prime Minister 382 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,390 Speaker 1: whether or not his country is being 383 00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:32,810 Speaker 1: exotic size by the rest of the world is that 384 00:19:32,819 --> 00:19:35,510 Speaker 1: there also seems to be a sense of that. Sometimes 385 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,030 Speaker 1: Bhutan gives the impression that it's a place frozen in time, right? 386 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,079 Speaker 1: That where tradition is a dominant visual cue for people 387 00:19:43,089 --> 00:19:44,939 Speaker 1: that are visiting there. But it doesn't mean that it's 388 00:19:44,949 --> 00:19:46,089 Speaker 1: not a modern country. 389 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,819 Speaker 1: The Prime Minister Turing said in a TED talk that 390 00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: his country is not a big monastery full of happy monks, 391 00:19:53,219 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: what he's trying to say that is that it is 392 00:19:55,530 --> 00:19:58,619 Speaker 1: a country like anybody else that is struggling to grow 393 00:19:58,630 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: and it is struggling to working very hard to provide 394 00:20:01,449 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 1: for its population. And it's also struggling and trying to 395 00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:08,979 Speaker 1: think big about its future. That yeah, why should a 396 00:20:08,989 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: country like Bhutan that is landlocked and small supposedly? 397 00:20:13,109 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: And why shouldn't they have a grand idea and a 398 00:20:16,729 --> 00:20:20,420 Speaker 1: big vision about the future? And also why shouldn't be, 399 00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:23,579 Speaker 1: it's so big that it's actually going to make headlines 400 00:20:23,589 --> 00:20:26,369 Speaker 1: in the world, but also be an inspiration for the 401 00:20:26,380 --> 00:20:28,790 Speaker 1: world in some way or the other. It is already 402 00:20:28,869 --> 00:20:32,218 Speaker 1: an inspiration for many people, not only because of its 403 00:20:32,229 --> 00:20:36,260 Speaker 1: mindfulness in its spirituality and its natural conservation. So why should, 404 00:20:36,345 --> 00:20:39,895 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be an inspiration for the world to merge 405 00:20:39,906 --> 00:20:44,244 Speaker 1: that with modern technology and with the modern world for myself? 406 00:20:44,255 --> 00:20:47,066 Speaker 1: I would say that it was definitely a fascinating assignment 407 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:51,725 Speaker 1: because as a foreign correspondent, I'm usually reporting from my 408 00:20:51,734 --> 00:20:55,336 Speaker 1: own talent bubble and I'm very proud of being a 409 00:20:55,345 --> 00:20:58,816 Speaker 1: foreign correspondent in my own country. But now I had 410 00:20:58,826 --> 00:20:59,514 Speaker 1: this assignment to go 411 00:20:59,582 --> 00:21:01,921 Speaker 1: to somebody else's country and report about them. And the 412 00:21:01,932 --> 00:21:04,212 Speaker 1: last thing I want is of course, to report about 413 00:21:04,222 --> 00:21:07,311 Speaker 1: that country inaccurately or portray them in some way that 414 00:21:07,321 --> 00:21:09,041 Speaker 1: is not close to the truth. So of course, I 415 00:21:09,052 --> 00:21:12,442 Speaker 1: felt some pressure about this, I felt definitely some expectation 416 00:21:12,671 --> 00:21:15,251 Speaker 1: to do it right by them, but also to do 417 00:21:15,261 --> 00:21:18,071 Speaker 1: it right by what I actually saw on the ground, 418 00:21:18,082 --> 00:21:20,261 Speaker 1: I leave it to others whether or not I achieve that. 419 00:21:20,271 --> 00:21:22,722 Speaker 1: But definitely, it was a super fascinating country 420 00:21:22,959 --> 00:21:26,719 Speaker 1: and it definitely seems to be charting a super fascinating 421 00:21:26,729 --> 00:21:29,420 Speaker 1: future and I hope we will see more of that 422 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:32,300 Speaker 1: in the not so distant future as well. And before 423 00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:34,849 Speaker 1: we go, Clara, our editor, she told me I have 424 00:21:34,859 --> 00:21:37,619 Speaker 1: to ask you about whether or not you made it 425 00:21:37,630 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: to the Tiger's Nest monastery. Now, people who have heard 426 00:21:41,010 --> 00:21:42,859 Speaker 1: of Bhutan, this is an iconic site. 427 00:21:43,150 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: It's hard to get to. Right. Did you make it? 428 00:21:46,459 --> 00:21:49,708 Speaker 1: So viewers if you don't see it just bumped my 429 00:21:49,719 --> 00:21:52,310 Speaker 1: head into the microphone. Well, OK, to, to those that 430 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:54,959 Speaker 1: don't know what a TN is, it's a Buddhist temple 431 00:21:54,969 --> 00:21:57,929 Speaker 1: that is carved into the side of a mountain and 432 00:21:58,219 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: it's quite a trek. It's quite a hike to get 433 00:22:00,770 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: up there. We were told it takes an average about 434 00:22:03,410 --> 00:22:06,650 Speaker 1: three or four hours judging by my own physi and 435 00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: physical powers probably longer and well, spoiler alert. No, we 436 00:22:11,689 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: didn't make it to the top. We made it about 60% 437 00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: of the hike 438 00:22:15,994 --> 00:22:18,494 Speaker 1: because also keep in mind, right, we were filming. So 439 00:22:18,505 --> 00:22:20,415 Speaker 1: we had to carry all that camera equipment up there 440 00:22:20,425 --> 00:22:22,925 Speaker 1: as well. And the donkeys that you can rent also 441 00:22:22,935 --> 00:22:26,494 Speaker 1: go only half way up. So yeah, we didn't make it, 442 00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:28,175 Speaker 1: we only make it halfway up and the weather was 443 00:22:28,185 --> 00:22:31,574 Speaker 1: about to turn so mission failed. I hope we will 444 00:22:31,584 --> 00:22:33,694 Speaker 1: have another opportunity to repeat that 445 00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: mission failed but a for effort. S thank you so much. 446 00:22:37,290 --> 00:22:39,829 Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to hearing your experience firsthand 447 00:22:39,839 --> 00:22:42,420 Speaker 1: and you did not disappoint. Thanks so much. Thanks for 448 00:22:42,439 --> 00:22:45,099 Speaker 1: having me and a reminder that the TV episodes of 449 00:22:45,109 --> 00:22:48,339 Speaker 1: CN A correspondent air every Wednesday at 930 pm, Singapore 450 00:22:48,349 --> 00:22:52,540 Speaker 1: Hong Kong Time Find Sys series on Bhutan on youtube 451 00:22:52,550 --> 00:22:55,750 Speaker 1: and also on CN A dot Asia. The team behind 452 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: this week's episode is Rosli Pute Clara Ong Christina Robert 453 00:22:59,569 --> 00:23:02,609 Speaker 1: Craig Dale and myself, Teresa Tang. Thanks for joining us.