1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:02,589 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast 2 00:00:05,110 --> 00:00:08,170 Speaker 2: now a slam dunk. That's what we would call Mr 3 00:00:08,180 --> 00:00:13,500 Speaker 2: Tara win in presidential race a win by such a 4 00:00:13,510 --> 00:00:17,649 Speaker 2: margin that it left. No doubt in anyone's mind that 5 00:00:17,659 --> 00:00:20,850 Speaker 2: he is indeed the chosen one that is 6 00:00:21,010 --> 00:00:23,729 Speaker 2: the people of Singapore. So in this episode, we want 7 00:00:23,739 --> 00:00:26,690 Speaker 2: to get into some burning questions about the result was 8 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:30,739 Speaker 2: his landslide victory expected. What do the results say about 9 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:35,259 Speaker 2: how Singaporean voters view the presidency and what will this 10 00:00:35,270 --> 00:00:37,139 Speaker 2: mean for the next general election? 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,138 Speaker 2: My guests today are Walid Jumblat Abdullah, assistant professor at 12 00:00:43,150 --> 00:00:47,168 Speaker 2: Nanyang Technological University. Hi, happy to be here. Eugene Tan, 13 00:00:47,180 --> 00:00:50,659 Speaker 2: associate professor of law at the Singapore Management University. Always 14 00:00:50,668 --> 00:00:53,490 Speaker 2: nice to be in the heart of the matter. Ok. Oh, 15 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:55,319 Speaker 2: that's a nice way. Yes, we are going to get 16 00:00:55,330 --> 00:00:58,119 Speaker 2: to the heart of the matter. So welcome guys. Let's 17 00:00:58,130 --> 00:01:00,659 Speaker 2: talk presidential election and talk about the 18 00:01:01,075 --> 00:01:04,694 Speaker 2: first because going in was term what some people call 19 00:01:04,705 --> 00:01:08,194 Speaker 2: the nuclear option that he would blow the competition out 20 00:01:08,205 --> 00:01:10,845 Speaker 2: of the water. But Eugene, you were very much around 21 00:01:10,855 --> 00:01:14,205 Speaker 2: on polling Knight sitting in our CN A studio and 22 00:01:14,214 --> 00:01:18,485 Speaker 2: actually you look very surprised when that 70% sample count 23 00:01:18,495 --> 00:01:22,035 Speaker 2: first came out and you actually said it was mind 24 00:01:22,044 --> 00:01:24,524 Speaker 2: boggling why? So, 25 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:30,099 Speaker 2: I think certainly Mr throughout the campaign was the front runner. 26 00:01:30,199 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: But I thought given the very spirited campaign ran by 27 00:01:34,129 --> 00:01:38,589 Speaker 2: Mr Kok Song and then with the opposition leaders coming 28 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: out in support of Mr Tan, Kin Lian, I thought 29 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:45,069 Speaker 2: that whatever lead he had would have been trimmed if 30 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,510 Speaker 2: not chopped away. And besides, it is hard initially to 31 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:50,250 Speaker 2: have thought that 32 00:01:50,569 --> 00:01:54,199 Speaker 2: in a presidential election, the winner could get 70% because 33 00:01:54,209 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: that means drawing votes across the political lines, drawing votes 34 00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: across the political boundary across socioeconomic classes as well. 35 00:02:04,669 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: I had said on Friday that a 60% win would 36 00:02:08,970 --> 00:02:12,649 Speaker 2: actually be a very good result. So 70% to me 37 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:16,710 Speaker 2: was unthinkable and he was able to poll as popularly 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,609 Speaker 2: as he was within his strong GRC where he stood 39 00:02:20,619 --> 00:02:22,989 Speaker 2: for many years. I think he himself was surprised by 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,100 Speaker 2: the high number. What, what about you? What do you 41 00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:27,779 Speaker 2: think similar thoughts as well? So 17 42 00:02:27,869 --> 00:02:32,279 Speaker 2: percent is remarkable. If I were from the ruling party, 43 00:02:32,288 --> 00:02:36,039 Speaker 2: I would be quite happy with that because he is 44 00:02:36,050 --> 00:02:39,779 Speaker 2: associated with the ruling party. And if the results were reversed, right? 45 00:02:39,788 --> 00:02:42,008 Speaker 2: If it was 50% I think a lot of us 46 00:02:42,020 --> 00:02:44,910 Speaker 2: would sit here and say that, oh, this shows that 47 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,758 Speaker 2: there is a brand problem with the pap at this 48 00:02:47,770 --> 00:02:50,459 Speaker 2: point in time, if it's 70% then we cannot turn 49 00:02:50,470 --> 00:02:50,979 Speaker 2: around and say 50 00:02:51,070 --> 00:02:53,130 Speaker 2: that the reverse is not true. Although I would put 51 00:02:53,139 --> 00:02:56,070 Speaker 2: a few caveats. One is, has always been more popular 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,630 Speaker 2: than the PAP itself. But at the same time, what 53 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,690 Speaker 2: it shows is association with the party brand is not 54 00:03:01,699 --> 00:03:06,020 Speaker 2: as toxic as many online circles. Like that's one of 55 00:03:06,029 --> 00:03:08,300 Speaker 2: the things probably I would take away. Let's break that 56 00:03:08,309 --> 00:03:10,460 Speaker 2: down a bit because that is one of the big questions. 57 00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: So how much of it has to do with the 58 00:03:12,008 --> 00:03:14,179 Speaker 2: man himself and how much of it has to, 59 00:03:14,270 --> 00:03:16,750 Speaker 2: to do with his association with PAP. A lot of 60 00:03:16,758 --> 00:03:18,839 Speaker 2: it has to do with the man. He has always 61 00:03:18,850 --> 00:03:23,619 Speaker 2: pulled higher than his party anyway. But at the same time, 62 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:28,100 Speaker 2: we have seen before, even in other countries, elections where 63 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:31,759 Speaker 2: the candidate is extremely credible, extremely popular, but association with 64 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:34,570 Speaker 2: the party can drag that person, right? One of the 65 00:03:34,580 --> 00:03:37,380 Speaker 2: takeaways is the Pap brand is still intact 66 00:03:37,669 --> 00:03:40,830 Speaker 2: as long as they put an extremely credible candidate, I 67 00:03:40,839 --> 00:03:43,100 Speaker 2: think they can take heart in it. Right. Of course, 68 00:03:43,110 --> 00:03:45,490 Speaker 2: they will probably not get a 70% in the next 69 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: general election. I mean, that's quite a difficult standard to 70 00:03:49,089 --> 00:03:51,429 Speaker 2: measure up against, but I think they could take some 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,050 Speaker 2: comfort that people still trust the brand. So if it 72 00:03:55,059 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 2: had been perhaps some other minister that had been the 73 00:03:58,089 --> 00:04:00,139 Speaker 2: presidential candidate, do you think 74 00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:02,485 Speaker 2: would have been quite different. I think there's no chance 75 00:04:02,494 --> 00:04:06,384 Speaker 2: anyone else would have gotten 70%. I think a slightly 76 00:04:06,395 --> 00:04:12,095 Speaker 2: different view. I agree with that. The brand is exceptionally 77 00:04:12,104 --> 00:04:16,225 Speaker 2: strong and so his winning margin is very much a 78 00:04:16,234 --> 00:04:21,464 Speaker 2: reflection of Mr Taman himself. But obviously his 22 years 79 00:04:21,475 --> 00:04:25,174 Speaker 2: in politics with the ruling party gave him the canvas 80 00:04:25,184 --> 00:04:30,204 Speaker 2: on which he could profile his experience and his ability. 81 00:04:30,670 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: But I don't think voters in this presidential election went 82 00:04:34,649 --> 00:04:40,369 Speaker 2: into the polling booths thinking along partisan lines. I felt 83 00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 2: that given the way he polled, it would seem to 84 00:04:43,730 --> 00:04:47,730 Speaker 2: suggest that voters were very clear that this was not 85 00:04:47,738 --> 00:04:51,678 Speaker 2: a partisan contest. I think they were relatively confident that 86 00:04:51,690 --> 00:04:54,910 Speaker 2: Mr Taman if elected would be an independent president because 87 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,820 Speaker 2: of his track record of being independent minded. 88 00:04:58,220 --> 00:05:00,070 Speaker 2: I felt that in the end, this was really an 89 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:03,940 Speaker 2: election just about the candidates, the political parties where the 90 00:05:03,950 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: ruling or opposition didn't really feature too significantly. Although that 91 00:05:09,010 --> 00:05:11,959 Speaker 2: was the campaign stand for Mr EKO Song that he 92 00:05:11,970 --> 00:05:14,170 Speaker 2: was the independent candidate. So in a way, do you 93 00:05:14,178 --> 00:05:16,779 Speaker 2: think that didn't really resonate with people? I think it did. 94 00:05:16,790 --> 00:05:19,029 Speaker 2: I think, you know, in this election, there was tremendous 95 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,350 Speaker 2: focus on whether whoever was elected would be able to 96 00:05:23,359 --> 00:05:24,409 Speaker 2: exercise 97 00:05:24,690 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: the kau powers without fear or favor. If you saw 98 00:05:27,488 --> 00:05:29,738 Speaker 2: the three candidates, they went about quite different tags. So 99 00:05:29,750 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: Mr was, don't use labels. It's a bit simplistic prior 100 00:05:33,369 --> 00:05:37,140 Speaker 2: affiliations are not determinative. Mr Tan Kin Lian said I'm 101 00:05:37,149 --> 00:05:40,500 Speaker 2: the only one who is not affiliated with the establishment, 102 00:05:40,510 --> 00:05:43,899 Speaker 2: whether a political party or the public service, the government, 103 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: Mr tried to occupy that niche position 104 00:05:48,309 --> 00:05:51,339 Speaker 2: in the middle, no political affiliations, but part of the 105 00:05:51,350 --> 00:05:54,250 Speaker 2: establishment which again given the canvas on which to say 106 00:05:54,260 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: that look as G IC cio, I have all these 107 00:05:57,850 --> 00:06:01,660 Speaker 2: wealth of experience and have this ability as well. So 108 00:06:01,670 --> 00:06:05,299 Speaker 2: I think it was really the opposition leaders backing Mr 109 00:06:05,309 --> 00:06:08,808 Speaker 2: Tan Kin Lian that I think got voters to really 110 00:06:08,820 --> 00:06:11,769 Speaker 2: think about should we be voting along partisan lines or 111 00:06:11,779 --> 00:06:15,349 Speaker 2: should we just focus on the caliber of the candidates? 112 00:06:15,450 --> 00:06:18,079 Speaker 2: And I think for those voters who were sort of undecided, 113 00:06:18,369 --> 00:06:21,940 Speaker 2: were choosing between Mr Tara and Mr, they decided to 114 00:06:21,950 --> 00:06:25,350 Speaker 2: place their votes behind Mr Taman in an attempt not 115 00:06:25,359 --> 00:06:29,549 Speaker 2: to split the vote collectively. They kind of muddied the waters. 116 00:06:29,559 --> 00:06:32,690 Speaker 2: I guess perhaps what I would say is to slightly 117 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:36,779 Speaker 2: disagree with you, Jane is that the voters always consider 118 00:06:36,790 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: party and person in any election, especially in plurality of 119 00:06:41,890 --> 00:06:44,420 Speaker 2: first past the post elections. Singapore is not unique in 120 00:06:44,428 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 2: that regard. So people will always look at 121 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 2: the person, the affiliation voters. I think there are a 122 00:06:50,609 --> 00:06:53,299 Speaker 2: few types of people, right? So one is the pro 123 00:06:53,329 --> 00:06:56,130 Speaker 2: establishment and he has a track record and for them, 124 00:06:56,140 --> 00:06:58,910 Speaker 2: the fact that he is not independent or he's independent 125 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: is irrelevant because they like what he is. And if 126 00:07:01,369 --> 00:07:03,328 Speaker 2: I were to, what are the lessons that I take 127 00:07:03,339 --> 00:07:07,450 Speaker 2: from this, how is he able to transcend this partisan lines? 128 00:07:07,459 --> 00:07:10,809 Speaker 2: Part of the image that is needed for a president 129 00:07:10,820 --> 00:07:11,070 Speaker 2: is 130 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:14,380 Speaker 2: you must be seen to be over partisan politics. And 131 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:16,510 Speaker 2: even though he was part of the ruling party for 132 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:19,570 Speaker 2: 22 years, let's try to think, was there any point 133 00:07:19,579 --> 00:07:22,790 Speaker 2: in time where he personally attacked members of the opposition 134 00:07:22,799 --> 00:07:25,019 Speaker 2: for instance? Right. And it's, it's very difficult to think 135 00:07:25,029 --> 00:07:27,950 Speaker 2: of any, right? So he seems to have transcended that 136 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:31,309 Speaker 2: and even the opposition members speak well of him. Wow. Ok. 137 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,790 Speaker 2: So in a way, he had been able to rise 138 00:07:33,799 --> 00:07:36,459 Speaker 2: above it all so to speak. The recent scandals. Also 139 00:07:36,470 --> 00:07:39,649 Speaker 2: that happened the PAP also with the Workers Party that 140 00:07:40,029 --> 00:07:42,820 Speaker 2: in a way it didn't really change voters' opinions. Do 141 00:07:42,829 --> 00:07:45,089 Speaker 2: you think that was water under the bridge? Is it 142 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,510 Speaker 2: just because we are mature enough to think this doesn't 143 00:07:47,519 --> 00:07:50,279 Speaker 2: really affect things? It's irrelevant. I think voters felt it 144 00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:55,079 Speaker 2: was irrelevant for the purposes of the presidential contest, whatever 145 00:07:55,089 --> 00:07:59,070 Speaker 2: has happened to the two leading parties, they are still relevant. 146 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:01,220 Speaker 2: They're still in the mix when it comes to the 147 00:08:01,230 --> 00:08:04,670 Speaker 2: general elections. Now the last contested presidential election was a 148 00:08:04,679 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: four way fight, a battle of the Tony Tan, also 149 00:08:08,329 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 2: a deputy Prime Minister at one point in time, he 150 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:13,049 Speaker 2: put very close numbers compared to and 151 00:08:14,299 --> 00:08:17,399 Speaker 2: so is it fair to compare that election with what 152 00:08:17,410 --> 00:08:20,630 Speaker 2: has just happened. I would say there are obviously some similarities, 153 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,540 Speaker 2: but I would say there are more differences. So one 154 00:08:22,549 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: is Doctor Tony Tan at that point in time, he 155 00:08:25,209 --> 00:08:28,269 Speaker 2: had left cabinet for quite some time. He was nowhere 156 00:08:28,279 --> 00:08:29,309 Speaker 2: near the public 157 00:08:29,494 --> 00:08:34,064 Speaker 2: profile that Mr had in the consciousness of voters. And secondly, 158 00:08:34,835 --> 00:08:39,395 Speaker 2: in 2011 is not in 2023 had just left PAP 159 00:08:39,405 --> 00:08:42,255 Speaker 2: for five years, maybe the third one was that also 160 00:08:42,265 --> 00:08:44,585 Speaker 2: came on the back of the general election 161 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,949 Speaker 2: in 2011 and the mood I think was very different. Finally, 162 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,849 Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we maybe have 163 00:08:50,859 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 2: not talked about enough is campaign was superbly run like 164 00:08:56,690 --> 00:08:59,218 Speaker 2: the physical and the online campaign. He had a lot 165 00:08:59,229 --> 00:09:02,590 Speaker 2: of these closed door discussions with influencers and you could 166 00:09:02,599 --> 00:09:06,309 Speaker 2: see the multiplier effect of the post, the pictures, the influencers, 167 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,169 Speaker 2: 100,000 followers, 50,000 followers and it was very targeted. And 168 00:09:10,539 --> 00:09:12,409 Speaker 2: of course he has the resources, he has the know 169 00:09:12,419 --> 00:09:14,669 Speaker 2: how he's been there, done that, right? But it was 170 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: still quite innovative in the way that he did the 171 00:09:17,289 --> 00:09:19,909 Speaker 2: online campaign. So I think there are significant differences that 172 00:09:19,919 --> 00:09:24,039 Speaker 2: can explain 2011 and 2023. What about Mr, how much 173 00:09:24,049 --> 00:09:26,829 Speaker 2: of it then has to do with being known already? 174 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:30,429 Speaker 2: So Mr is always kind of in the media because 175 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,770 Speaker 2: of his role as a cabinet minister. Whereas the other guys. 176 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:35,750 Speaker 2: Not so much, we only just got to know them 177 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:36,630 Speaker 2: a few months ago. 178 00:09:37,049 --> 00:09:39,049 Speaker 2: Did that play a significant part? I think it did 179 00:09:39,059 --> 00:09:42,590 Speaker 2: particularly for Mr Kok Song, who was the least well 180 00:09:42,599 --> 00:09:46,739 Speaker 2: known among the three candidates that didn't help that when 181 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:50,780 Speaker 2: he first announced his intention to run, there were in 182 00:09:50,789 --> 00:09:54,169 Speaker 2: some quarters the view that he was a planted candidate 183 00:09:54,179 --> 00:09:57,140 Speaker 2: just there to ensure that there would be a contest 184 00:09:57,150 --> 00:09:59,729 Speaker 2: this time. But I don't think now that the contest 185 00:09:59,739 --> 00:10:01,419 Speaker 2: is over, that anyone would say 186 00:10:01,890 --> 00:10:05,380 Speaker 2: that he was a planted candidate. I think he fought valiantly. 187 00:10:05,390 --> 00:10:07,739 Speaker 2: But I think while it is right that not having 188 00:10:07,750 --> 00:10:11,239 Speaker 2: that currency, you know, in terms of being on people's 189 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:15,739 Speaker 2: minds and all would make it difficult for a candidate 190 00:10:15,789 --> 00:10:19,619 Speaker 2: in a very short campaign period to be able to 191 00:10:19,669 --> 00:10:23,099 Speaker 2: get people to know who you are. But more importantly, 192 00:10:23,109 --> 00:10:26,039 Speaker 2: you know, to not treat your intention to run with 193 00:10:26,049 --> 00:10:27,479 Speaker 2: any suspicion. 194 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,809 Speaker 2: I think in a way, you know, that also affected 195 00:10:29,820 --> 00:10:33,090 Speaker 2: Tangin Lian, you know, the lack of visibility and presence 196 00:10:33,099 --> 00:10:37,700 Speaker 2: and Mr Taman visibility in many ways contributed to what 197 00:10:37,710 --> 00:10:41,349 Speaker 2: I would describe as the brand for Mr Eng and 198 00:10:41,359 --> 00:10:43,569 Speaker 2: Mr Tan. It was also a bit like almost coming 199 00:10:43,580 --> 00:10:46,299 Speaker 2: out of retirement to to compete. I somehow got that 200 00:10:46,309 --> 00:10:48,450 Speaker 2: sense because they were kind of not in the swing 201 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: of things. They had been on the sidelines for a while. 202 00:10:51,090 --> 00:10:51,780 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean Mr Tang 203 00:10:52,020 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: in particular, I was still saying I would run on 204 00:10:53,969 --> 00:10:55,949 Speaker 2: my give way to the George Goh, you know, who 205 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,270 Speaker 2: didn't get the certificate? So it's kind of wavering, you know, 206 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,189 Speaker 2: are you serious or are you not? What if, what 207 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 2: if Mr George go had been in the running? Do 208 00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:05,929 Speaker 2: you think that would have changed things quite a bit 209 00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:08,669 Speaker 2: before the elections? I would say it probably would. But 210 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,909 Speaker 2: after the elections looking at the margin, I don't think 211 00:11:10,919 --> 00:11:13,369 Speaker 2: it would have been significant how I look at it 212 00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:15,968 Speaker 2: is versus non vote. Ok, probably. 213 00:11:16,179 --> 00:11:18,549 Speaker 2: And even if, let's say you put even a stronger 214 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,820 Speaker 2: candidate than George go, how many more percent can you 215 00:11:20,830 --> 00:11:25,459 Speaker 2: shave off? 5% makes which I agree above 60% is 216 00:11:25,469 --> 00:11:28,909 Speaker 2: resounding victory in a presidential election. I think George go 217 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:32,039 Speaker 2: probably if he was there and was that he would 218 00:11:32,049 --> 00:11:35,289 Speaker 2: have taken away most of than votes or tan wouldn't 219 00:11:35,299 --> 00:11:37,429 Speaker 2: have run as well. But I don't think it would 220 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,429 Speaker 2: be super material to the 221 00:11:39,719 --> 00:11:43,289 Speaker 2: margin of victory. What about sport votes? Let's get into 222 00:11:43,299 --> 00:11:45,929 Speaker 2: that for a bit. People worried about the number being 223 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:48,369 Speaker 2: a bit high but in the end, the margin was 224 00:11:48,380 --> 00:11:51,460 Speaker 2: very small. Does this also suggest that people were pretty 225 00:11:51,469 --> 00:11:53,909 Speaker 2: much clear about what they wanted and who they wanted? 226 00:11:54,359 --> 00:11:57,709 Speaker 2: The low number of Porto votes shows that Singaporeans accept 227 00:11:57,719 --> 00:12:01,669 Speaker 2: this as a legitimate election. The sport vote is basically 228 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,539 Speaker 2: the ultimate protest even more so than a vote. It's 229 00:12:06,549 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 2: the ultimate protest against the system. Whereas a tan vote 230 00:12:10,210 --> 00:12:13,099 Speaker 2: you can say is an ultimate protest against the PAP. 231 00:12:13,109 --> 00:12:15,690 Speaker 2: But the vote is saying that I don't see this 232 00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:17,750 Speaker 2: as legitimate. And even though there were calls by 233 00:12:17,830 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 2: some quite prominent people saying that we should spoil our votes. 234 00:12:21,729 --> 00:12:24,500 Speaker 2: I would say that it didn't get currency and also 235 00:12:24,510 --> 00:12:27,609 Speaker 2: spoiling a vote as behavioral economist would say it is 236 00:12:27,619 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 2: not that easy. You may think that you want to 237 00:12:29,330 --> 00:12:31,510 Speaker 2: spoil your vote once you queue up already and you 238 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,979 Speaker 2: make that effort, it's difficult to spoil that you like. Yeah, 239 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 2: you go there and then you decide you have a choice. 240 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,219 Speaker 2: A choice. Exactly. Yeah. So I never thought 241 00:12:41,299 --> 00:12:44,739 Speaker 2: that it would gain currency. It's interesting because the mood 242 00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:47,989 Speaker 2: in 2023 is very different from the mood in 2017 243 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:51,659 Speaker 2: after President Halima was announced. Remember there was a lot 244 00:12:51,669 --> 00:12:55,150 Speaker 2: of resentment if there was an election, then maybe you 245 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:58,119 Speaker 2: have seen higher number of votes. But this time around, 246 00:12:58,130 --> 00:13:01,090 Speaker 2: I would say there is no such concern. It's clearly 247 00:13:01,099 --> 00:13:04,690 Speaker 2: a huge mandate. The biggest of mandates. I think voters 248 00:13:04,770 --> 00:13:07,539 Speaker 2: recognize the importance and so felt that they had to 249 00:13:07,549 --> 00:13:10,729 Speaker 2: make a choice which of the three candidates they were 250 00:13:10,739 --> 00:13:13,919 Speaker 2: going to support. There will always be rejected votes. People 251 00:13:13,929 --> 00:13:17,380 Speaker 2: who feel that none of them meets their requirements or 252 00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:20,179 Speaker 2: feel that even if they to them candidate a was 253 00:13:20,190 --> 00:13:24,219 Speaker 2: the strongest, but they couldn't get past certain attributes of 254 00:13:24,229 --> 00:13:26,770 Speaker 2: candidate a and so felt that they can't cast a 255 00:13:26,780 --> 00:13:30,218 Speaker 2: ballot in that light, but people are entitled to spoil 256 00:13:30,229 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: their ballots. But I've always taken the view that 257 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,819 Speaker 2: you should make a choice. Right. You know, as I 258 00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:38,659 Speaker 2: told somebody who told me, oh, they are all not appealing. Well, 259 00:13:38,669 --> 00:13:40,700 Speaker 2: choose the one who is the most appealing, even though 260 00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:43,169 Speaker 2: they are all not appealing. You know, and I think, well, 261 00:13:43,179 --> 00:13:44,950 Speaker 2: they put it quite well, you know, the idea that 262 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,608 Speaker 2: you spend all the effort to go to the polling station. 263 00:13:47,619 --> 00:13:49,728 Speaker 2: I think you take an even greater effort to spoil 264 00:13:49,739 --> 00:13:52,859 Speaker 2: your some people or do you think there's a group 265 00:13:52,869 --> 00:13:55,449 Speaker 2: out there that is all talk, no real action, just talk. 266 00:13:55,460 --> 00:13:57,570 Speaker 2: They want to complain, they want to be unhappy about 267 00:13:57,580 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: it and on the surface, they will say they will 268 00:14:00,330 --> 00:14:02,429 Speaker 2: support these other guys. But when they are at 269 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,330 Speaker 2: the booth with that card in front of them, they 270 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:08,729 Speaker 2: choose otherwise. I think there's, there's a difference between chatter 271 00:14:08,739 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 2: and when you go to the booth, then there are 272 00:14:10,969 --> 00:14:14,609 Speaker 2: some serious considerations that voters think about, which is why 273 00:14:14,619 --> 00:14:16,909 Speaker 2: I always say through the process, if voters have voted, 274 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:17,630 Speaker 2: they have voted. 275 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,250 Speaker 2: So I'm never really too worried about voting outcomes because 276 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,710 Speaker 2: if you believe in democracy, then you have to accept 277 00:14:23,719 --> 00:14:26,250 Speaker 2: the voting outcomes, right? Yeah. But I mean, we all 278 00:14:26,260 --> 00:14:29,049 Speaker 2: were at the polling stations. When you look at the mood, 279 00:14:29,059 --> 00:14:33,260 Speaker 2: people were maintaining the silence. People spoke in low voices. 280 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:35,309 Speaker 2: You could see the sort of relief when 281 00:14:35,580 --> 00:14:38,039 Speaker 2: people had cast their ballots. You know, and I thought 282 00:14:38,049 --> 00:14:41,340 Speaker 2: many of them felt very gratified or encouraged by what 283 00:14:41,349 --> 00:14:44,090 Speaker 2: they did. And, and I thought that was really democracy 284 00:14:44,099 --> 00:14:47,349 Speaker 2: at work. Everyone went about deciding who they wanted to vote. 285 00:14:47,359 --> 00:14:49,450 Speaker 2: The eld, make sure that things generally went in a 286 00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: fairly effective and efficient manner last Saturday. You know, we 287 00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:56,190 Speaker 2: all woke up feeling good unlike, let's say the 2017 288 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,500 Speaker 2: or 2011 where I think the national mood was actually 289 00:14:59,510 --> 00:15:00,330 Speaker 2: very different. 290 00:15:00,429 --> 00:15:02,729 Speaker 2: People just felt good more going out to get pineapple 291 00:15:02,739 --> 00:15:05,739 Speaker 2: dessert or, or what not, you know, you know, there 292 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:09,099 Speaker 2: was a celebratory mood, you know, in a way, I 293 00:15:09,109 --> 00:15:11,799 Speaker 2: guess people felt that they had made their choice and 294 00:15:11,809 --> 00:15:14,119 Speaker 2: their choice was reflected in a way they had a 295 00:15:14,130 --> 00:15:17,349 Speaker 2: role to play in the whole. And I think the 30% 296 00:15:17,359 --> 00:15:22,130 Speaker 2: that didn't cast their ballots for Mr Accepted, you know, accepted. Well, 297 00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:25,039 Speaker 2: this is how have spoken and decided. 298 00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:31,510 Speaker 2: Hello. My name is Steve and I'm Theresa Tang. And 299 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,010 Speaker 2: we are the hosts of CNN correspondent, a podcast that 300 00:15:35,020 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: takes you to the heart of the work our correspondents 301 00:15:38,010 --> 00:15:41,789 Speaker 2: do across the globe from China's COVID response to the 302 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:44,710 Speaker 2: Childcare Center massacre in Thailand and 303 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,369 Speaker 2: the fall of Najib Razak to the rise of Anwar 304 00:15:47,380 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, we speak to the people 305 00:15:51,010 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: at the reporting front lines. So if you want to 306 00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:57,419 Speaker 2: know how the biggest global stories unfold, make sure you 307 00:15:57,429 --> 00:16:01,169 Speaker 2: follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. 308 00:16:07,049 --> 00:16:09,289 Speaker 2: We know that the next ge has to come pretty 309 00:16:09,299 --> 00:16:11,580 Speaker 2: soon by 2025. How is this going to play out? 310 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:14,130 Speaker 2: Will this get the parties thinking a little bit differently 311 00:16:14,140 --> 00:16:16,979 Speaker 2: about how they might strategize moving forward? Do you think 312 00:16:16,989 --> 00:16:20,260 Speaker 2: this will change in the way they approach the campaign? 313 00:16:20,369 --> 00:16:23,340 Speaker 2: If I were the ruling party, I would take some 314 00:16:23,349 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: quiet optimism. As I said, it shows that the brand 315 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:28,609 Speaker 2: has not been damaged even by the scandals. However, with 316 00:16:28,619 --> 00:16:32,030 Speaker 2: some caveats, as I said earlier, maybe they should think, oh, 317 00:16:32,039 --> 00:16:32,659 Speaker 2: we should 318 00:16:33,390 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: be perceived to be more like the party as a whole, 319 00:16:37,090 --> 00:16:40,010 Speaker 2: you know, like being this almost a national figure, a 320 00:16:40,020 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 2: national unifying figure above personal attacks. That's one thing then 321 00:16:44,409 --> 00:16:47,250 Speaker 2: the other thing which is lurking also in the background 322 00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:50,619 Speaker 2: is the leadership transition, should it happen before or after? 323 00:16:50,630 --> 00:16:51,099 Speaker 2: And I think 324 00:16:51,330 --> 00:16:53,570 Speaker 2: there are serious discussions to be had on the side 325 00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:56,530 Speaker 2: of the party. And I'm thinking also about the large 326 00:16:56,539 --> 00:16:59,179 Speaker 2: margin that Mr Taman has gotten. Well, I think the 327 00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:01,929 Speaker 2: party would be encouraged with it. He has also set 328 00:17:01,940 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: an incredibly high bar for future presidential candidates even for 329 00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:10,250 Speaker 2: the party itself. Like imagine if gets 70 they get 330 00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:11,599 Speaker 2: like 50 plus or 60 331 00:17:11,685 --> 00:17:13,954 Speaker 2: he won at the last election. So I think there 332 00:17:13,964 --> 00:17:17,535 Speaker 2: are some things for the ruling party to be optimistic about. 333 00:17:17,854 --> 00:17:23,564 Speaker 2: But with certain caution for the opposition than and Workers 334 00:17:23,574 --> 00:17:27,165 Speaker 2: Party not getting involved, I think that was really smart for, 335 00:17:28,364 --> 00:17:31,214 Speaker 2: they definitely didn't benefit from endorsing than 336 00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: the question is. How much did they lose? Probably in 337 00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:39,319 Speaker 2: the long run. It wouldn't be too devastating because there 338 00:17:39,329 --> 00:17:41,300 Speaker 2: will be many other things that will appear before the 339 00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 2: next election. But it definitely didn't help them. The fact 340 00:17:44,689 --> 00:17:47,130 Speaker 2: that they went strongly for Tan Killer and he got 341 00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:51,489 Speaker 2: 13 plus percent. That's, that shows that in the first 342 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,859 Speaker 2: place endorsements, rarely ever work even in America or celebrity endorsements, 343 00:17:55,869 --> 00:17:59,930 Speaker 2: it's rarely ever works to bolster suddenly people will say, oh, support, 344 00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:02,810 Speaker 2: then I will, there will be some, but I don't 345 00:18:02,819 --> 00:18:05,339 Speaker 2: think voters are that simplistic. You know, Steve, we are 346 00:18:05,349 --> 00:18:09,390 Speaker 2: looking at in a way, a unparalled situation where you 347 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,969 Speaker 2: have a president who is more popular than the elected 348 00:18:13,979 --> 00:18:15,139 Speaker 2: government of the day. 349 00:18:15,489 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: I think that will take some getting used to where 350 00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:20,599 Speaker 2: the ruling party is concerned. I think the ruling party 351 00:18:20,609 --> 00:18:22,909 Speaker 2: should be concerned about the outcome. I think a slightly 352 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,339 Speaker 2: different view from that the PAP brand is still intact 353 00:18:26,349 --> 00:18:30,859 Speaker 2: because I think through the ballots, voters were signaling what 354 00:18:30,869 --> 00:18:34,579 Speaker 2: sort of leadership and leader they would like to see 355 00:18:34,589 --> 00:18:39,459 Speaker 2: the way Mr campaign, the way he had conducted himself 356 00:18:39,469 --> 00:18:43,130 Speaker 2: throughout his 22 years in politics. And I thought the 357 00:18:43,140 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: voters 358 00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:47,129 Speaker 2: did signal that, you know, through the votes that they 359 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:50,389 Speaker 2: cast and the outcome that we saw, if I were 360 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,589 Speaker 2: the ruling party, the question now is, are voters going 361 00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:58,180 Speaker 2: to measure me by that same yardstick? Because you are 362 00:18:58,189 --> 00:19:00,310 Speaker 2: the ruling party? Can you set the tone, you know, 363 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:04,619 Speaker 2: can you do your policies promote, for example, respect for 364 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: us 365 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,609 Speaker 2: and then actually they'll be in trouble if that is 366 00:19:06,619 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 2: the yardstick because that's a very high, that's a very high, 367 00:19:10,349 --> 00:19:13,688 Speaker 2: very high. Exactly. And that's why I take the view 368 00:19:13,699 --> 00:19:16,839 Speaker 2: that they perhaps would be somewhat concerned. Of course, you know, 369 00:19:16,849 --> 00:19:20,739 Speaker 2: if Mr had pulled just above 50% yes, you know, 370 00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 2: I think they will have to be even more. But 371 00:19:22,890 --> 00:19:25,219 Speaker 2: now I am wondering, you know, whether, you know, with 372 00:19:25,229 --> 00:19:28,609 Speaker 2: the fact that you have a stabilizing force in Istana 373 00:19:28,660 --> 00:19:30,948 Speaker 2: come September 14th onwards, 374 00:19:31,229 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 2: whether voters might even be thinking? Well, we have a stabilizer. 375 00:19:34,810 --> 00:19:37,790 Speaker 2: Now in the elected president, do you want to send 376 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,140 Speaker 2: a pointed message to the ruling party? Uh for the opposition, 377 00:19:41,150 --> 00:19:44,419 Speaker 2: the endorsements may come back to haunt some of them. 378 00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:48,479 Speaker 2: But in a parliamentary general election, I think the considerations 379 00:19:48,489 --> 00:19:51,020 Speaker 2: could be quite different, but it does suggest that the 380 00:19:51,030 --> 00:19:54,719 Speaker 2: opposition leaders may not be able to mobilize support as 381 00:19:54,729 --> 00:19:57,859 Speaker 2: easily as they thought they could. Putting it simply, I 382 00:19:57,869 --> 00:20:00,300 Speaker 2: would say that the presidential election outcome 383 00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:04,260 Speaker 2: doesn't really change the political equation, both the ruling party 384 00:20:04,270 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 2: and the opposition parties have their work cut out for 385 00:20:07,010 --> 00:20:10,569 Speaker 2: them and less than two years remain of the current 386 00:20:10,579 --> 00:20:13,540 Speaker 2: parliamentary term. You know, so time is of the essence 387 00:20:13,550 --> 00:20:15,579 Speaker 2: they got their work cut out. But, but as rightly 388 00:20:15,589 --> 00:20:17,989 Speaker 2: pointed out, at least you feel like you have some 389 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: stability in the Astana now. So that is kind of 390 00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:23,589 Speaker 2: one area that's been covered. You almost feel like you 391 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:25,780 Speaker 2: can rock the boat a bit more in the other camp. 392 00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:28,540 Speaker 2: And then again, you know, for the PAP, they will 393 00:20:28,550 --> 00:20:31,669 Speaker 2: have lost their star player. Yes, that's a huge thing. 394 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,369 Speaker 2: Also the loss to the front bench of the PAP 395 00:20:34,380 --> 00:20:36,750 Speaker 2: is not insignificant with him leaving. 396 00:20:36,989 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: And the other consideration, I guess for the GE is 397 00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:43,780 Speaker 2: PM Lee team, which included Mr is the track and 398 00:20:43,790 --> 00:20:46,609 Speaker 2: tested people sort of know them and maybe people give 399 00:20:46,619 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: them some latitude to make more mistakes but not so 400 00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:51,729 Speaker 2: much for the four G as well. So that's another 401 00:20:51,739 --> 00:20:56,139 Speaker 2: consideration that voters probably would have. So any predictions, the 402 00:20:56,150 --> 00:21:01,079 Speaker 2: GGE very early, very early, will this in any way 403 00:21:01,089 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 2: encourage them to 404 00:21:02,665 --> 00:21:05,224 Speaker 2: move things earlier? Yeah, some people have said that right, 405 00:21:05,234 --> 00:21:07,395 Speaker 2: the snap poll, right? But I doubt that they would 406 00:21:07,405 --> 00:21:10,474 Speaker 2: be so buoyed by this and do that precisely for 407 00:21:10,484 --> 00:21:14,944 Speaker 2: the reasons Eugene mentioned. Yes, I agree with Eugene that 50% 408 00:21:14,954 --> 00:21:18,494 Speaker 2: would be worse for them, but 70% it's not exactly paradise. 409 00:21:18,505 --> 00:21:20,514 Speaker 2: So for the reason that, that you mentioned, what if 410 00:21:20,525 --> 00:21:23,954 Speaker 2: voters say like, look, this is the standard that we want, right, 411 00:21:23,964 --> 00:21:27,354 Speaker 2: this above partisan politics guy. And if they are measured 412 00:21:27,364 --> 00:21:28,175 Speaker 2: by that, then 413 00:21:28,589 --> 00:21:31,270 Speaker 2: to be honest, I think that's an unfair also but 414 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 2: voters will probably think like that. So you don't think so? 415 00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: No early call for the G. Eugene. No. Yeah, I mean, 416 00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 2: they have lost the talisman in Mr. I'm not sure 417 00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 2: that they were able to find someone quickly enough, but 418 00:21:43,410 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 2: they need as much time as they can to, you know, 419 00:21:45,250 --> 00:21:47,060 Speaker 2: to sort out the many issues that 420 00:21:47,155 --> 00:21:50,104 Speaker 2: people have been concerned about, right? Whether they relate to 421 00:21:50,114 --> 00:21:55,765 Speaker 2: cost of living, housing, affordability, accessibility, job security. And of course, 422 00:21:55,775 --> 00:21:58,125 Speaker 2: you know, you need time to show that your public 423 00:21:58,135 --> 00:22:01,925 Speaker 2: life standards, you know, the recent controversies, you know, relating 424 00:22:01,935 --> 00:22:05,025 Speaker 2: to corruption as well as the MP S resigning over 425 00:22:05,035 --> 00:22:08,823 Speaker 2: an affair. These things take time for the impact to 426 00:22:08,834 --> 00:22:09,464 Speaker 2: weaken 427 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,010 Speaker 2: and for them to show that they have learned the lessons. Well, 428 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:15,369 Speaker 2: one lesson that they shouldn't take away from Mr Salman's 429 00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:17,969 Speaker 2: victory is that the ground is sweet or that it 430 00:22:17,979 --> 00:22:20,530 Speaker 2: is time to go for an early poll. I think 431 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 2: that will be completely misreading the ground. I must say 432 00:22:23,969 --> 00:22:26,569 Speaker 2: that I am like you guys a little bit surprised too, 433 00:22:26,579 --> 00:22:29,079 Speaker 2: but glad to, in a way, see how things have 434 00:22:29,089 --> 00:22:31,099 Speaker 2: come about. And I think it's also a reflection of 435 00:22:31,109 --> 00:22:33,670 Speaker 2: our society and the voters today know that 436 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 2: we are changing, we are evolving and we are looking 437 00:22:36,449 --> 00:22:38,650 Speaker 2: at things quite differently and it's going to be challenging 438 00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 2: moving forward because as we know, politics tends to only 439 00:22:41,729 --> 00:22:44,550 Speaker 2: get dirtier as time goes by. And I don't know 440 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,010 Speaker 2: if Singapore can continue to 441 00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:49,629 Speaker 2: stay above it all and regardless of who our politicians 442 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,930 Speaker 2: are you on which side they might be on as well. Yeah, 443 00:22:51,939 --> 00:22:54,949 Speaker 2: so even in this presidential election, you saw some hints 444 00:22:54,959 --> 00:22:57,198 Speaker 2: of that, thankfully not from the candidates. I would say 445 00:22:57,209 --> 00:23:01,530 Speaker 2: it's been pretty dignified, but you saw online people talking 446 00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:04,150 Speaker 2: about families and so on which you never want to see. 447 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,550 Speaker 2: But I think it's going to be more inevitable, it 448 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,380 Speaker 2: shouldn't happen but it will happen. 449 00:23:08,670 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 2: The level of competition was healthy, sometimes it was robust 450 00:23:11,939 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: and sure he wasn't a plan if he was a plant, 451 00:23:14,369 --> 00:23:17,420 Speaker 2: he was a very good plan to to to go 452 00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:24,449 Speaker 2: out against, you know, one wonders whether Mr was the plan. 453 00:23:24,694 --> 00:23:27,675 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, because because you know, he he would 454 00:23:27,685 --> 00:23:29,494 Speaker 2: have got people to think, you know, ok, we better 455 00:23:29,505 --> 00:23:32,244 Speaker 2: not split, you know, the votes, you know, for candidates 456 00:23:32,255 --> 00:23:35,844 Speaker 2: who are completely opposite of Mr Tan, I think that 457 00:23:35,854 --> 00:23:38,425 Speaker 2: resulted in the outcome that we saw voters deciding to 458 00:23:38,435 --> 00:23:39,813 Speaker 2: pull their votes behind Mr 459 00:23:40,699 --> 00:23:43,930 Speaker 2: and leaving Mr with what I think many would regard 460 00:23:43,939 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: as some of the subpar performance, you know, despite the 461 00:23:46,770 --> 00:23:49,290 Speaker 2: value proposition that he brought, you know, to the, you know, 462 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 2: what I'm with you, Eugene. I think maybe Mr Ng 463 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:53,180 Speaker 2: was a plant because who else would have planted the 464 00:23:53,189 --> 00:23:56,109 Speaker 2: cat into the whole campaign? You know, so that, that 465 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,810 Speaker 2: was just miraculous. Anyway, gentlemen, thank you so much for 466 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:02,069 Speaker 2: coming in and sharing your insights, shedding a bit of 467 00:24:02,079 --> 00:24:03,829 Speaker 2: light on the whole situation and to all of our 468 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:06,250 Speaker 2: viewers who will be listening in. We hope you've enjoyed 469 00:24:06,260 --> 00:24:08,729 Speaker 2: the discussion and any thoughts you might have on it 470 00:24:08,739 --> 00:24:10,869 Speaker 2: as well. Do let us know, you know, drop us 471 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,819 Speaker 2: a comment. We love to hear from you also jump online, 472 00:24:13,829 --> 00:24:16,329 Speaker 2: get onto Spotify onto Apple podcast and, and give us 473 00:24:16,339 --> 00:24:18,989 Speaker 2: a great review. It really does encourage the whole team, 474 00:24:19,369 --> 00:24:22,609 Speaker 2: but otherwise we will be back again next week. Just 475 00:24:22,619 --> 00:24:25,599 Speaker 2: want to thank my folks behind this podcast. The team 476 00:24:25,609 --> 00:24:31,489 Speaker 2: here is Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chancy, Tiffany Ang Jesselyn and 477 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 2: Christina Robert 478 00:24:33,030 --> 00:24:35,219 Speaker 2: and I'm Steven Chow, signing off saying see you next week. 479 00:24:35,229 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: Bye for now.