WEBVTT - Protecting yourself from property disputes

0:00:03.079 --> 0:00:05.320
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a CNA podcast.

0:00:08.319 --> 0:00:12.148
<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to CNA's Money Talks podcast. I'm Andrea Heng,

0:00:12.260 --> 0:00:16.059
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sure that like me, you don't enjoy arguing

0:00:16.059 --> 0:00:20.340
<v Speaker 2>with your loved ones. Fighting over anything with your family

0:00:20.340 --> 0:00:23.940
<v Speaker 2>is distressing enough, but when it comes to assets, it

0:00:23.940 --> 0:00:26.619
<v Speaker 2>can be even uglier and more painful.

0:00:27.870 --> 0:00:31.420
<v Speaker 2>I have a sobering fact for you. It's growing more common.

0:00:31.750 --> 0:00:34.790
<v Speaker 2>In fact, an average of 10 families a year fight

0:00:34.790 --> 0:00:38.509
<v Speaker 2>over properties here in Singapore, and that's according to media reports.

0:00:38.630 --> 0:00:41.060
<v Speaker 2>The same reports say that there have been at least

0:00:41.060 --> 0:00:45.110
<v Speaker 2>130 such cases in the past decade alone.

0:00:45.509 --> 0:00:48.860
<v Speaker 2>So what can you do then to protect yourself in

0:00:48.860 --> 0:00:53.220
<v Speaker 2>a similar situation? Today, I'm asking Lim Fung Ping, he's

0:00:53.220 --> 0:00:56.090
<v Speaker 2>director and head of family and private wealth Practice group

0:00:56.090 --> 0:00:59.509
<v Speaker 2>at Yuan Law LLC. Hi Pin, welcome to the show.

0:00:59.779 --> 0:01:02.380
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Andrew. I'm happy to be here. Now, you

0:01:02.380 --> 0:01:05.660
<v Speaker 2>must have seen many cases of families fighting over property

0:01:05.660 --> 0:01:09.059
<v Speaker 2>or assets in your career. What's the one that stood

0:01:09.059 --> 0:01:11.899
<v Speaker 2>out to you the most so far? What's trending now,

0:01:11.980 --> 0:01:15.279
<v Speaker 2>what's unfortunate, as you say is instances where

0:01:15.489 --> 0:01:20.190
<v Speaker 2>Infighting in a family over property, how a property should

0:01:20.190 --> 0:01:24.110
<v Speaker 2>be sold. One very common and increasing trend we have

0:01:24.110 --> 0:01:28.379
<v Speaker 2>is what is called forced sale kind of applications in court.

0:01:28.910 --> 0:01:32.230
<v Speaker 2>So the scenarios looks like this, A and B are

0:01:32.230 --> 0:01:34.919
<v Speaker 2>co-owner of a property, could be a condo, could be

0:01:34.919 --> 0:01:40.790
<v Speaker 2>an HDB landed, and A wants out and B wants

0:01:40.790 --> 0:01:43.750
<v Speaker 2>to stay. So it could be parent and child, or

0:01:43.750 --> 0:01:44.750
<v Speaker 2>it could be two siblings.

0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.139
<v Speaker 2>So in the past 10 years, I've done close to

0:01:49.139 --> 0:01:52.569
<v Speaker 2>10 cases already, so it could be like 1 a year.

0:01:53.019 --> 0:01:57.699
<v Speaker 2>So that's a common scenario and when a party wants

0:01:57.699 --> 0:02:00.010
<v Speaker 2>to move on, the party that wants to move on

0:02:00.010 --> 0:02:02.900
<v Speaker 2>then apply to the High Court, yeah. OK. Is this

0:02:02.900 --> 0:02:04.290
<v Speaker 2>worrying to you? Are you concerned?

0:02:04.959 --> 0:02:08.910
<v Speaker 2>It is and I think one of the concerning points

0:02:08.910 --> 0:02:11.350
<v Speaker 2>is that how did the family land up in this

0:02:11.350 --> 0:02:15.589
<v Speaker 2>kind of situation in my convincing practice, which means when

0:02:15.589 --> 0:02:17.160
<v Speaker 2>people buy and sell property.

0:02:17.538 --> 0:02:20.669
<v Speaker 2>I, as a lawyer, try to help them be mindful

0:02:20.669 --> 0:02:26.339
<v Speaker 2>about long-term arrangements, right? So how you buy property matters,

0:02:26.429 --> 0:02:29.079
<v Speaker 2>but we lawyers call the manner of holding, whether it's

0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.190
<v Speaker 2>joint tenancy or tenants in common, can affect the nature

0:02:32.190 --> 0:02:35.100
<v Speaker 2>of the holding can affect the parties for the long term.

0:02:35.429 --> 0:02:39.309
<v Speaker 2>And holding is basically legally for ownership. That's right. We

0:02:39.309 --> 0:02:42.380
<v Speaker 2>have two people and you have divergent views that that

0:02:42.589 --> 0:02:45.148
<v Speaker 2>complicates things. So for example, HDB.

0:02:45.758 --> 0:02:49.639
<v Speaker 2>Some people think, oh, very convenient, uh, two people who

0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.160
<v Speaker 2>are a bit, uh, I won't say elderly but past

0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:54.869
<v Speaker 2>middle age, and then when they buy HDB flat, then

0:02:54.869 --> 0:02:58.440
<v Speaker 2>they conveniently ask their single child to join them, many

0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:02.929
<v Speaker 2>cases like that, I have yeah, and the single child,

0:03:03.119 --> 0:03:06.079
<v Speaker 2>adult child says, la, we are Asian, right, so we

0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:08.179
<v Speaker 2>help our parents lah, you know, we can get the loan,

0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:09.829
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing, and then.

0:03:10.580 --> 0:03:13.940
<v Speaker 2>Very commonly that single person finds someone special and then

0:03:13.940 --> 0:03:17.500
<v Speaker 2>they want to apply for the BTO, then there's a

0:03:17.500 --> 0:03:20.428
<v Speaker 2>situation here and that's very unfortunate because the child has

0:03:20.429 --> 0:03:23.449
<v Speaker 2>every right to remove his name so that he's eligible

0:03:23.449 --> 0:03:26.770
<v Speaker 2>for his BTO right? and that's one very common scenario.

0:03:26.979 --> 0:03:29.850
<v Speaker 2>So the family there thought, oh, it's convenient for financing

0:03:29.850 --> 0:03:32.740
<v Speaker 2>to get the adult child in, but they didn't think, hey,

0:03:34.589 --> 0:03:38.190
<v Speaker 2>down the road. So along familial arrangements like this is

0:03:38.190 --> 0:03:42.250
<v Speaker 2>very common for refinancing, but another situation of course is

0:03:42.250 --> 0:03:44.750
<v Speaker 2>writing of wills. I think it's something that we've discussed

0:03:44.750 --> 0:03:47.589
<v Speaker 2>here on the Money Talks podcast also how Singaporeans are

0:03:47.589 --> 0:03:51.550
<v Speaker 2>unaware of the importance of having a will written out

0:03:51.550 --> 0:03:55.029
<v Speaker 2>because it really does help mitigate some of these issues

0:03:55.029 --> 0:03:57.919
<v Speaker 2>that you're talking about right now. Do you think that

0:03:57.919 --> 0:03:59.270
<v Speaker 2>more work needs to be done to

0:03:59.690 --> 0:04:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Raise the awareness and the importance of writing a will.

0:04:03.050 --> 0:04:05.570
<v Speaker 2>I've written 3 books. My first book was about the LPA,

0:04:05.649 --> 0:04:07.850
<v Speaker 2>my second one was about probate, and my 3rd 1

0:04:07.850 --> 0:04:11.009
<v Speaker 2>is about family matters. In all my prefaces on my books,

0:04:11.130 --> 0:04:17.570
<v Speaker 2>I say that every Singaporean has a very oversimplified view

0:04:17.570 --> 0:04:20.178
<v Speaker 2>of things. I like to put it that way and

0:04:20.178 --> 0:04:23.609
<v Speaker 2>in in one of my prefaces, I also say it's

0:04:23.609 --> 0:04:26.130
<v Speaker 2>maybe partly because we are a new society.

0:04:26.690 --> 0:04:29.489
<v Speaker 2>To put it politely, sometimes we have this immigrant mentality.

0:04:29.690 --> 0:04:32.479
<v Speaker 2>If you look at American culture, even like New York City,

0:04:32.730 --> 0:04:34.808
<v Speaker 2>if you look at the Greeks and Italians and even

0:04:34.809 --> 0:04:37.170
<v Speaker 2>the Chinese, they are very frugal. What's the hallmark of

0:04:37.170 --> 0:04:41.410
<v Speaker 2>immigrant mentality? Frugality, so why spend more money. So I,

0:04:41.809 --> 0:04:43.089
<v Speaker 2>I believe that

0:04:43.135 --> 0:04:47.605
<v Speaker 2>as professionals or as concerned stakeholders in society, whether it's

0:04:47.605 --> 0:04:51.325
<v Speaker 2>government or self-help groups, we need to understand where our

0:04:51.325 --> 0:04:54.605
<v Speaker 2>population is at. If people have this immigrant mentality, then

0:04:54.605 --> 0:04:57.445
<v Speaker 2>they don't see the value of it. Everything is simple

0:04:57.445 --> 0:04:58.924
<v Speaker 2>and if you look at a lot of ads, a

0:04:58.924 --> 0:04:59.774
<v Speaker 2>lot of requests that

0:05:00.010 --> 0:05:01.559
<v Speaker 2>My team gets, he said, oh, I want to do

0:05:01.559 --> 0:05:04.640
<v Speaker 2>a simple will. Have you ever asked a doctor, I

0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.660
<v Speaker 2>want a simple operation. No, you let the doctor decide

0:05:07.660 --> 0:05:10.368
<v Speaker 2>whether this operation is simple or not, right? So yeah,

0:05:10.959 --> 0:05:13.350
<v Speaker 2>it's not really up to you. Even now with patients

0:05:13.350 --> 0:05:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and doctors, oh, doc, I want antibiotics. Many of my

0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.600
<v Speaker 2>doctor friends go, who made you the doctor? So that's

0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.279
<v Speaker 2>why I come back to your point. Creating awareness and

0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.510
<v Speaker 2>understanding is very important and in my area of work,

0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.849
<v Speaker 2>the clients that I really appreciate.

0:05:30.130 --> 0:05:33.070
<v Speaker 2>And not the high net worth ones alone, but it

0:05:33.070 --> 0:05:36.149
<v Speaker 2>happens to be that not all, but a lot of

0:05:36.149 --> 0:05:38.669
<v Speaker 2>good family, I call it good families, they understand the

0:05:38.670 --> 0:05:43.529
<v Speaker 2>value of doing a comprehensive will, or a simple will.

0:05:44.350 --> 0:05:48.309
<v Speaker 2>So let's take the scenario of the average Singaporean, 80%

0:05:48.309 --> 0:05:51.260
<v Speaker 2>of us live in HDB flats. Now, somebody

0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.720
<v Speaker 2>In their 50s, says, oh, I want to finally do

0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:57.519
<v Speaker 2>my will, I want do a simple will. I just

0:05:57.519 --> 0:06:00.549
<v Speaker 2>want to give my HDB flat to my two children,

0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:06.558
<v Speaker 2>2 is enough. So give my two children bolela. How

0:06:06.559 --> 0:06:08.640
<v Speaker 2>can it be? Why do I need to pay a

0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.630
<v Speaker 2>lawyer $600 for that or whatever $100? But they are

0:06:12.630 --> 0:06:15.359
<v Speaker 2>not aware of the consequences and it gets even more

0:06:15.359 --> 0:06:19.440
<v Speaker 2>complicated with private property because let's say father wants to

0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:20.179
<v Speaker 2>give to

0:06:20.488 --> 0:06:23.359
<v Speaker 2>Two children again, and then the two children already have

0:06:23.359 --> 0:06:26.170
<v Speaker 2>their own HDB flats, so they can't inherit this private

0:06:26.170 --> 0:06:30.260
<v Speaker 2>property depending on the scenarios and then let's say they

0:06:30.619 --> 0:06:34.450
<v Speaker 2>Inherit it nevertheless, and then, but maybe one wants to

0:06:34.450 --> 0:06:37.959
<v Speaker 2>say maybe even without HDB flats, they want to inherit it,

0:06:37.970 --> 0:06:40.089
<v Speaker 2>maybe it's a bungalow, so one has to buy the

0:06:40.089 --> 0:06:44.399
<v Speaker 2>other one out that incurs PSD, potentially ABSD, all these taxes,

0:06:44.769 --> 0:06:48.760
<v Speaker 2>there was no planning. So I have even moneyed families

0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.369
<v Speaker 2>that the grandfather leaves at $8 million.10 million dollars, $150

0:06:52.369 --> 0:06:57.049
<v Speaker 2>million property, and it's given to 16 beneficiaries. Yeah, even

0:06:57.049 --> 0:06:59.410
<v Speaker 2>grandchildren have 116 share in the.

0:06:59.678 --> 0:07:03.470
<v Speaker 2>It's a minefield. So there was not enough planning and

0:07:03.470 --> 0:07:05.869
<v Speaker 2>in terms of wills also, I've seen wills that were

0:07:05.869 --> 0:07:08.570
<v Speaker 2>made 35 years ago, the postal code is 2 digits.

0:07:08.670 --> 0:07:10.790
<v Speaker 2>So I tell people now in terms of wills, you

0:07:10.790 --> 0:07:11.769
<v Speaker 2>should treat it like you're

0:07:12.130 --> 0:07:14.730
<v Speaker 2>iOS or your app, if you don't update it, I

0:07:14.730 --> 0:07:17.250
<v Speaker 2>can't use my SingPass. So your will is the same

0:07:17.250 --> 0:07:20.730
<v Speaker 2>because life changes life stages and things like that. And

0:07:20.730 --> 0:07:22.929
<v Speaker 2>not just your life, but I think the environment around

0:07:22.929 --> 0:07:26.850
<v Speaker 2>you changes as well. Laws change, regulations change, tax changes

0:07:26.850 --> 0:07:29.730
<v Speaker 2>as well, yeah. I'm curious about that case where you

0:07:29.730 --> 0:07:32.649
<v Speaker 2>have parents leaving their child in the will or I'll

0:07:32.649 --> 0:07:35.410
<v Speaker 2>just split it with the 2 children or 16 beneficiaries,

0:07:35.489 --> 0:07:36.079
<v Speaker 2>what have you.

0:07:36.369 --> 0:07:39.869
<v Speaker 2>So what would your advice be then in those scenarios,

0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.000
<v Speaker 2>let's say you catch it before the owner of the

0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.839
<v Speaker 2>property dies. What would your advice be then? It's the

0:07:44.839 --> 0:07:46.160
<v Speaker 2>same in anything in life.

0:07:46.700 --> 0:07:49.268
<v Speaker 2>What's the most important thing to you? What's the objective?

0:07:49.329 --> 0:07:51.470
<v Speaker 2>You go to a car showroom, right? What do you

0:07:51.470 --> 0:07:54.190
<v Speaker 2>need a car for? What's your budget? Are you a

0:07:54.190 --> 0:07:56.500
<v Speaker 2>car enthusiast or not? Do you want to just go

0:07:56.500 --> 0:07:58.829
<v Speaker 2>and service the car once a year, that type of,

0:07:59.140 --> 0:08:02.670
<v Speaker 2>or what? So same if you will. So I understand

0:08:02.670 --> 0:08:04.790
<v Speaker 2>what you're saying. A lot of ladies come to me

0:08:04.790 --> 0:08:07.160
<v Speaker 2>because I think ladies are more, they want to do

0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.640
<v Speaker 2>housekeeping and I always tell men, you're very blessed if

0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:11.190
<v Speaker 2>you have a

0:08:11.234 --> 0:08:13.744
<v Speaker 2>wife that wants to drag you down to the law

0:08:13.744 --> 0:08:16.625
<v Speaker 2>office to get advice or do up your will. And yeah,

0:08:16.744 --> 0:08:19.295
<v Speaker 2>so how I help the clients actually what's most important

0:08:19.295 --> 0:08:24.135
<v Speaker 2>to you. Yeah, and it's quite normal for a person

0:08:24.135 --> 0:08:28.225
<v Speaker 2>to without advice, I just want to be fair, Asian, right?

0:08:28.404 --> 0:08:33.655
<v Speaker 2>My parents are like that. I just want to be fair. Yeah, yeah.

0:08:33.905 --> 0:08:35.744
<v Speaker 2>And another question I ask them is.

0:08:36.719 --> 0:08:40.049
<v Speaker 2>What's most important to you besides being fair? There are

0:08:40.049 --> 0:08:42.840
<v Speaker 2>certain things that I will ask them, for example, and

0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:46.049
<v Speaker 2>there was a grandfather, 68-year-old grandfather who had 5 very

0:08:46.049 --> 0:08:49.309
<v Speaker 2>successful children. I think he had one profession, each one lawyer,

0:08:49.380 --> 0:08:52.530
<v Speaker 2>one doctor, one banker, everything, yeah, he had a full

0:08:52.530 --> 0:08:55.799
<v Speaker 2>house and he had 7 grandchildren, and he in particular

0:08:55.799 --> 0:08:58.419
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be fair to his children and his grandchildren.

0:08:58.489 --> 0:09:01.250
<v Speaker 2>I said, I was a much younger lawyer then, so

0:09:01.250 --> 0:09:04.530
<v Speaker 2>I said, uncle, wow, you're really blessed. I said, do

0:09:04.530 --> 0:09:05.809
<v Speaker 2>your children really need money?

0:09:06.429 --> 0:09:09.640
<v Speaker 2>They said, no lah, they are doing so well. I said,

0:09:09.869 --> 0:09:12.349
<v Speaker 2>then what is, what you really want to do with

0:09:12.349 --> 0:09:16.108
<v Speaker 2>your legacy? I said, oh, actually I want to show

0:09:16.109 --> 0:09:19.348
<v Speaker 2>my grandchildren love and show them what's the importance of

0:09:19.349 --> 0:09:20.510
<v Speaker 2>having a good education.

0:09:21.070 --> 0:09:24.229
<v Speaker 2>Right, and so it, long story short, he turned his

0:09:24.229 --> 0:09:30.270
<v Speaker 2>whole world into creating an educational trust for his 7 grandchildren. Yeah,

0:09:30.469 --> 0:09:33.960
<v Speaker 2>that's nice. What about the other side of the negotiating

0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.469
<v Speaker 2>table or the beneficiaries, right? Have you come into instances

0:09:37.469 --> 0:09:40.909
<v Speaker 2>where even if the beneficiaries are well off, they're.

0:09:41.583 --> 0:09:44.223
<v Speaker 2>They still believe, no, I have a right to this

0:09:44.223 --> 0:09:47.302
<v Speaker 2>piece of property. It's about my right to possession. So

0:09:47.302 --> 0:09:50.382
<v Speaker 2>how do you handle that? These days, these kind of

0:09:50.381 --> 0:09:55.622
<v Speaker 2>scenarios also are coming around and some parents take the

0:09:55.622 --> 0:09:59.103
<v Speaker 2>view of Warren Buffett and the like. I've really given

0:09:59.102 --> 0:10:00.572
<v Speaker 2>you stuff.

0:10:01.226 --> 0:10:03.375
<v Speaker 2>I'm not gonna give my kids anything because why I

0:10:03.375 --> 0:10:06.216
<v Speaker 2>asked you this question is because in my mind, and

0:10:06.216 --> 0:10:08.055
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to put it quite crudely as well, you

0:10:08.056 --> 0:10:09.856
<v Speaker 2>don't have to be poor to want to fight for

0:10:09.856 --> 0:10:14.226
<v Speaker 2>a piece of what you think you deserve. We just

0:10:14.226 --> 0:10:17.976
<v Speaker 2>resolve this case, they were fighting over $30,000 that's it,

0:10:18.015 --> 0:10:20.296
<v Speaker 2>they fought for one year and they're not rich and

0:10:20.296 --> 0:10:21.295
<v Speaker 2>we were telling them.

0:10:22.039 --> 0:10:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Why are you fighting? Can we help you settle this

0:10:25.159 --> 0:10:30.340
<v Speaker 2>principle is principle, and then I said, OK, but principles

0:10:30.340 --> 0:10:33.179
<v Speaker 2>are costly and but some people, you have to respect

0:10:33.179 --> 0:10:35.900
<v Speaker 2>their decision. Yeah, but coming back to that, yeah, so

0:10:35.900 --> 0:10:38.409
<v Speaker 2>at the end of the day when the executor says, I,

0:10:38.700 --> 0:10:40.859
<v Speaker 2>I want to just give to charity and nothing to

0:10:40.859 --> 0:10:41.539
<v Speaker 2>my children.

0:10:42.020 --> 0:10:45.069
<v Speaker 2>Uh, in Singapore, it's very hard to challenge, right? In Australia,

0:10:45.159 --> 0:10:49.549
<v Speaker 2>in other jurisdictions, there are possible means to to do it, right?

0:10:49.739 --> 0:10:53.010
<v Speaker 2>Singapore is very hard for a beneficiary to challenge and say, oh,

0:10:53.070 --> 0:10:54.940
<v Speaker 2>I want a piece of the action because I'm entitled

0:10:54.940 --> 0:10:57.989
<v Speaker 2>to it. In Singapore, there's only a law that says

0:10:57.989 --> 0:11:00.909
<v Speaker 2>that if you are a dependent, so if you're handicapped

0:11:00.909 --> 0:11:03.709
<v Speaker 2>or you're disabled, and and also that only entitles you

0:11:03.710 --> 0:11:07.669
<v Speaker 2>to maintenance, maintenance to do like to survive, not like

0:11:07.669 --> 0:11:09.549
<v Speaker 2>a share of the estate. I'm seeing more.

0:11:09.635 --> 0:11:12.175
<v Speaker 2>More of these actually you're right. They feel that they've

0:11:12.176 --> 0:11:14.695
<v Speaker 2>done enough for their kids or even their grandkids and

0:11:14.815 --> 0:11:19.875
<v Speaker 2>that's it. Just out of curiosity, what proportion of cases

0:11:19.875 --> 0:11:25.096
<v Speaker 2>involve private property versus HDB flat? Anecdotally, I would just

0:11:25.096 --> 0:11:29.785
<v Speaker 2>say it's in my 50/50. It is pretty split down

0:11:29.785 --> 0:11:33.176
<v Speaker 2>the middle. OK, I think it's 50/50, but bearing in

0:11:33.176 --> 0:11:37.045
<v Speaker 2>mind that 80% of us live in HDB flats, yeah.

0:11:37.252 --> 0:11:41.231
<v Speaker 2>But anecdotally is fifty-fifty. Let's go into the process now,

0:11:41.322 --> 0:11:44.312
<v Speaker 2>the bit of the technical aspect of a property dispute.

0:11:44.481 --> 0:11:47.002
<v Speaker 2>How are they first raised? How do they first come

0:11:47.002 --> 0:11:49.002
<v Speaker 2>to you and then what are the key steps you

0:11:49.002 --> 0:11:51.881
<v Speaker 2>would take once that case lands on your desk. So

0:11:51.881 --> 0:11:55.932
<v Speaker 2>typically how things go in Singapore, mostly people will make

0:11:55.932 --> 0:11:58.761
<v Speaker 2>inquiries in the law firm. They will write in an

0:11:58.761 --> 0:12:01.442
<v Speaker 2>email and then say this is the problem, right? I

0:12:01.442 --> 0:12:04.762
<v Speaker 2>want out or whatever it is, I want to share.

0:12:05.119 --> 0:12:08.010
<v Speaker 2>So whatever the inquiry is, the proper thing to do

0:12:08.010 --> 0:12:11.559
<v Speaker 2>is have a meet up and have a discussion and

0:12:12.169 --> 0:12:15.650
<v Speaker 2>discuss with the client the objectives and also what I

0:12:15.650 --> 0:12:20.280
<v Speaker 2>would do is propose certain options and since you're asking

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.479
<v Speaker 2>what are the steps, one of the first options is

0:12:22.479 --> 0:12:26.130
<v Speaker 2>not going to court. Yes, I get that sense. One

0:12:26.130 --> 0:12:29.020
<v Speaker 2>of the first options is actually to me is to

0:12:29.020 --> 0:12:31.409
<v Speaker 2>advise the client of their rights.

0:12:32.030 --> 0:12:36.909
<v Speaker 2>Because some people come with misconceptions, misconceptions of what they're

0:12:36.909 --> 0:12:39.469
<v Speaker 2>entitled to. So some people need a reality check, not

0:12:39.469 --> 0:12:43.640
<v Speaker 2>in Singapore. You watch too much Judge Judy, yes, yeah.

0:12:43.909 --> 0:12:46.510
<v Speaker 2>So the first step is always to get advisory and

0:12:46.510 --> 0:12:49.819
<v Speaker 2>assessment and then your legal advisor can just tell you

0:12:50.030 --> 0:12:52.630
<v Speaker 2>this is the score, this is where you stand, and

0:12:52.630 --> 0:12:55.830
<v Speaker 2>then for me, I would say, oh, you have a

0:12:55.830 --> 0:12:59.469
<v Speaker 2>claim or you have a case, but it is at

0:12:59.469 --> 0:13:00.429
<v Speaker 2>the moment, not.

0:13:01.020 --> 0:13:05.770
<v Speaker 2>Ready, it's not strong enough. So first thing assessment, giving

0:13:05.770 --> 0:13:07.719
<v Speaker 2>the kinds of options. One of the options could be

0:13:07.719 --> 0:13:10.569
<v Speaker 2>to strengthen their case, gather more evidence, but finally you

0:13:10.570 --> 0:13:12.590
<v Speaker 2>reach a stage where again it's not go to court,

0:13:12.690 --> 0:13:14.799
<v Speaker 2>it's to write a letter to the other side and say,

0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.728
<v Speaker 2>make a proposal, say, look, this is the situation, this

0:13:17.729 --> 0:13:20.400
<v Speaker 2>is my stand. I think this is a fair proposal.

0:13:20.729 --> 0:13:22.289
<v Speaker 2>I pay you this or you pay me this.

0:13:22.385 --> 0:13:24.255
<v Speaker 2>And we do this or what, this is how we

0:13:24.255 --> 0:13:27.875
<v Speaker 2>do things. So it's essentially mediation up to a degree.

0:13:27.976 --> 0:13:30.786
<v Speaker 2>So at what point then does it end up in court? OK,

0:13:30.955 --> 0:13:34.176
<v Speaker 2>it's not quite mediation, what we call it is negotiation.

0:13:34.695 --> 0:13:37.455
<v Speaker 2>So you write a proposal letter and wait for the

0:13:37.455 --> 0:13:40.096
<v Speaker 2>other side to respond. Most lawyers will actually go through

0:13:40.096 --> 0:13:42.705
<v Speaker 2>this process of negotiation by letter, at least one round to.

0:13:43.471 --> 0:13:45.901
<v Speaker 2>When that doesn't work, and then we have to see,

0:13:46.432 --> 0:13:49.752
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned mediation in family justice court and in the

0:13:49.752 --> 0:13:53.192
<v Speaker 2>state courts, there are court mediations, which is free, which

0:13:53.192 --> 0:13:55.431
<v Speaker 2>is very good. That means the court doesn't charge for it,

0:13:55.552 --> 0:13:57.791
<v Speaker 2>but that's because I think our courts really believe in

0:13:57.791 --> 0:14:00.410
<v Speaker 2>mediation and since I've been in practice for 28 years,

0:14:00.552 --> 0:14:02.790
<v Speaker 2>there's always been this and it's been going from strength

0:14:02.791 --> 0:14:05.791
<v Speaker 2>to strength. So mediation, I'm a firm believer in it.

0:14:06.250 --> 0:14:08.309
<v Speaker 2>Because I think mediation is also a way for the

0:14:08.309 --> 0:14:11.429
<v Speaker 2>mediator to give parties a reality check because everyone thinks

0:14:11.429 --> 0:14:14.789
<v Speaker 2>their case is bound to win. Is that the ultimatum

0:14:14.789 --> 0:14:18.070
<v Speaker 2>before it goes to court that mediation? Well, yes, if

0:14:18.070 --> 0:14:20.330
<v Speaker 2>there's a breakthrough in mediation.

0:14:20.919 --> 0:14:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Like mediation, is it one day and that's it, but

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.190
<v Speaker 2>court mediation normally is just not one day. If there's hope,

0:14:27.359 --> 0:14:29.239
<v Speaker 2>there can be a second round and that's where the

0:14:29.239 --> 0:14:34.159
<v Speaker 2>court mediator, normally a district judge will facilitate the parties

0:14:34.159 --> 0:14:37.789
<v Speaker 2>coming to a middle ground, but private mediation usually just

0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.270
<v Speaker 2>usually it's just one off. They try to finish.

0:14:40.940 --> 0:14:42.909
<v Speaker 2>If it starts at 9 they'll try to finish by

0:14:42.909 --> 0:14:45.460
<v Speaker 2>9 p.m. and then that's it, yeah. So at what

0:14:45.460 --> 0:14:48.619
<v Speaker 2>point does it go to court when fails? What kind

0:14:48.619 --> 0:14:51.940
<v Speaker 2>of cost are we looking at here from start to

0:14:51.940 --> 0:14:54.140
<v Speaker 2>end of that entire process that you talked about here

0:14:54.140 --> 0:14:57.380
<v Speaker 2>and which one is going to be the most expensive

0:14:57.380 --> 0:15:00.289
<v Speaker 2>part of the process? The initial part of writing letters

0:15:00.289 --> 0:15:03.500
<v Speaker 2>is can give us a range, it will be anything

0:15:03.500 --> 0:15:09.059
<v Speaker 2>from 20 to $5000 just to start negotiating, but when

0:15:09.059 --> 0:15:09.940
<v Speaker 2>you pass that.

0:15:10.330 --> 0:15:13.250
<v Speaker 2>When you go to court, it starts at 8 because

0:15:13.250 --> 0:15:15.849
<v Speaker 2>the 4 year application goes to the high court. Yeah,

0:15:15.969 --> 0:15:18.489
<v Speaker 2>so that's different as well. And it really depends. It

0:15:18.489 --> 0:15:22.609
<v Speaker 2>can range anything from 8 to 10, 12K and go

0:15:22.609 --> 0:15:24.909
<v Speaker 2>all the way to 40, 50k and this is in

0:15:24.909 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 2>the High Court. Yeah, so that is the reason why

0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.570
<v Speaker 2>when you usually go to the High Court, it's usually about.

0:15:31.409 --> 0:15:34.080
<v Speaker 2>A condo or a landed piece of property because the

0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.809
<v Speaker 2>stakes are higher, it's a higher ticket item, right? So

0:15:36.809 --> 0:15:39.489
<v Speaker 2>if it's in the arena of divorce in the family

0:15:39.489 --> 0:15:44.409
<v Speaker 2>justice court, then that's where another very big area happens

0:15:44.409 --> 0:15:46.809
<v Speaker 2>as well when I get inquiries about children.

0:15:47.169 --> 0:15:49.659
<v Speaker 2>And I meet the father or the mother for the

0:15:49.659 --> 0:15:51.419
<v Speaker 2>first time, we talk about children, who are going to

0:15:51.419 --> 0:15:53.510
<v Speaker 2>get the children. But the next big thing, in fact,

0:15:53.619 --> 0:15:58.500
<v Speaker 2>some people talk about the, yeah, because, to be fair,

0:15:58.739 --> 0:16:00.900
<v Speaker 2>sometimes it's not an issue that the kids are going

0:16:00.900 --> 0:16:02.549
<v Speaker 2>to go with the mom anyway. So now they worry

0:16:02.549 --> 0:16:04.940
<v Speaker 2>about the HDB flat or their condo or their private

0:16:04.940 --> 0:16:08.500
<v Speaker 2>property and then there again in even the family justice court,

0:16:08.539 --> 0:16:10.059
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to deal with it. It's one.

0:16:10.140 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 2>the big factors in the divorce proceedings. Just going back

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.809
<v Speaker 2>to the portion of the question, do the lawyers' fees

0:16:15.809 --> 0:16:18.330
<v Speaker 2>come up to a lot in these cases as well

0:16:18.330 --> 0:16:20.690
<v Speaker 2>in terms of what we will have to be prepared

0:16:20.690 --> 0:16:23.849
<v Speaker 2>to pay? It can be if both lawyers are trying

0:16:23.849 --> 0:16:27.650
<v Speaker 2>to be therapeutic collaborative, and both lawyers want to keep

0:16:27.650 --> 0:16:31.119
<v Speaker 2>on negotiating, but one of their clients, I want to fight.

0:16:31.530 --> 0:16:33.159
<v Speaker 2>You can't do anything, lawyer has to say.

0:16:33.510 --> 0:16:35.869
<v Speaker 2>I have to respect the client's view and advance his case.

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.090
<v Speaker 2>So some people just don't lend themselves to mediation. It

0:16:40.090 --> 0:16:44.640
<v Speaker 2>says fight means fight. So it's very yeah, even against

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>the lawyer's advice. They just said no, I just, or

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.359
<v Speaker 2>another way some people are interesting, they say, I just

0:16:51.359 --> 0:16:54.270
<v Speaker 2>want to let the judge decide. Yeah, for some people,

0:16:54.359 --> 0:16:55.469
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just

0:16:56.489 --> 0:16:58.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to decide, so I let the judge decide.

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:01.599
<v Speaker 2>So it's just like you have a person says, I

0:17:01.599 --> 0:17:03.549
<v Speaker 2>don't want to negotiate with you. I don't want to

0:17:03.549 --> 0:17:06.000
<v Speaker 2>consider your proposal. I just want to present, both of

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.780
<v Speaker 2>us present everything to the judge and let the judge decide.

0:17:09.319 --> 0:17:12.140
<v Speaker 2>So in a way they're not making a decision. So

0:17:12.140 --> 0:17:15.000
<v Speaker 2>sometimes the mediation is difficult and I see my counterpart

0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.150
<v Speaker 2>lawyer having a challenge because

0:17:17.550 --> 0:17:21.109
<v Speaker 2>His client or her client doesn't want to decide, and

0:17:21.109 --> 0:17:24.139
<v Speaker 2>he turns to her, you decide for me, I can't

0:17:24.140 --> 0:17:27.790
<v Speaker 2>decide for you. I can't decide for you. Of course,

0:17:27.949 --> 0:17:31.900
<v Speaker 2>it's wonderful if two people can compromise and just say, OK,

0:17:32.229 --> 0:17:35.719
<v Speaker 2>and that can be done very early on at negotiation

0:17:35.719 --> 0:17:39.349
<v Speaker 2>stage of two letters. Say the dispute involves family members

0:17:39.349 --> 0:17:43.948
<v Speaker 2>who don't have an alternative home or can't put their

0:17:43.949 --> 0:17:45.270
<v Speaker 2>share of the bill.

0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.949
<v Speaker 2>What options are available to them, what kind of support

0:17:48.949 --> 0:17:52.599
<v Speaker 2>can they get and also on the other side of

0:17:52.599 --> 0:17:55.569
<v Speaker 2>the aisle, what will the suing party for the lack

0:17:55.569 --> 0:17:58.438
<v Speaker 2>of a better term, need to prepare for? Let's take

0:17:58.439 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the HDB situation, it's a divorce context but same. The

0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.189
<v Speaker 2>owner was the gentleman and the lady was not Singaporean,

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:06.409
<v Speaker 2>they were married, but

0:18:06.839 --> 0:18:10.670
<v Speaker 2>She's just a registered occupier, but after the divorce, HDB

0:18:10.670 --> 0:18:13.550
<v Speaker 2>ruling is that she can't stay there anymore, she cannot

0:18:13.550 --> 0:18:15.879
<v Speaker 2>be the registered occupant doesn't really have in that sense. OK.

0:18:15.890 --> 0:18:21.239
<v Speaker 2>So that is of course a very weak position for

0:18:21.239 --> 0:18:24.040
<v Speaker 2>the party that is not a co-owner, so she has

0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 2>to move out. But if she's Singaporean citizen or PR

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:29.640
<v Speaker 2>but definitely citizen.

0:18:29.959 --> 0:18:33.909
<v Speaker 2>I know the HDB has many schemes like rental flats

0:18:33.910 --> 0:18:36.139
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. I understand what you're saying because

0:18:36.469 --> 0:18:38.949
<v Speaker 2>some people can be very transactional and says, I want

0:18:38.949 --> 0:18:41.229
<v Speaker 2>you out, even though you may have a right to

0:18:41.229 --> 0:18:43.708
<v Speaker 2>be there. So that's where if the person has a

0:18:43.709 --> 0:18:45.550
<v Speaker 2>right and they came to see me, they said, look,

0:18:45.589 --> 0:18:49.430
<v Speaker 2>let's negotiate. If you can't upkeep the place and things

0:18:49.430 --> 0:18:53.319
<v Speaker 2>like that, then, then you need to

0:18:53.910 --> 0:18:57.139
<v Speaker 2>Come to some compromise if maybe if it's a private property,

0:18:57.349 --> 0:18:59.550
<v Speaker 2>sell and then buy a two-room flat or something, there

0:18:59.550 --> 0:19:02.709
<v Speaker 2>must be some practical solution, but I think what we

0:19:02.709 --> 0:19:05.020
<v Speaker 2>are getting at is that people don't sit down and talk.

0:19:05.229 --> 0:19:08.750
<v Speaker 2>It's a really tricky conversation to have, but one that

0:19:08.750 --> 0:19:11.270
<v Speaker 2>I was really glad to have had with you. So

0:19:11.270 --> 0:19:12.988
<v Speaker 2>thanks very much for sitting in this chair. Thank you

0:19:12.989 --> 0:19:13.550
<v Speaker 2>for having me.

0:19:14.145 --> 0:19:16.536
<v Speaker 2>For being on the Money Talks podcast. Listeners, we hope

0:19:16.536 --> 0:19:20.375
<v Speaker 2>this episode provides the steps to make sure that you

0:19:20.375 --> 0:19:25.336
<v Speaker 2>and your loved one are protected from future disputes. Hopefully

0:19:25.336 --> 0:19:28.176
<v Speaker 2>none at all. As they say, sharing is caring, so

0:19:28.176 --> 0:19:31.004
<v Speaker 2>if you know anyone who might benefit from this episode,

0:19:31.296 --> 0:19:34.494
<v Speaker 2>please send it their way. Share feedback with us.

0:19:34.761 --> 0:19:38.521
<v Speaker 2>as well. Money Talks is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

0:19:38.722 --> 0:19:41.802
<v Speaker 2>YouTube Music and Me Listen as well. You can leave

0:19:41.802 --> 0:19:44.291
<v Speaker 2>us a rating there as well. Thank you to the team.

0:19:44.302 --> 0:19:48.962
<v Speaker 2>Tiffany Ang, Junaini Johari, Joanne Chan, Hanida Amin, Sae Wind,

0:19:49.082 --> 0:19:52.041
<v Speaker 2>Ili Manso, Tan Wen Lin. I'm Andrea Heng, and this

0:19:52.041 --> 0:19:54.281
<v Speaker 2>has been CNA's Money Talks podcast. Thank you very much

0:19:54.281 --> 0:19:54.832
<v Speaker 2>for listening.