1 00:00:03,079 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:08,319 --> 00:00:12,148 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to CNA's Money Talks podcast. I'm Andrea Heng, 3 00:00:12,260 --> 00:00:16,059 Speaker 2: and I'm sure that like me, you don't enjoy arguing 4 00:00:16,059 --> 00:00:20,340 Speaker 2: with your loved ones. Fighting over anything with your family 5 00:00:20,340 --> 00:00:23,940 Speaker 2: is distressing enough, but when it comes to assets, it 6 00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:26,619 Speaker 2: can be even uglier and more painful. 7 00:00:27,870 --> 00:00:31,420 Speaker 2: I have a sobering fact for you. It's growing more common. 8 00:00:31,750 --> 00:00:34,790 Speaker 2: In fact, an average of 10 families a year fight 9 00:00:34,790 --> 00:00:38,509 Speaker 2: over properties here in Singapore, and that's according to media reports. 10 00:00:38,630 --> 00:00:41,060 Speaker 2: The same reports say that there have been at least 11 00:00:41,060 --> 00:00:45,110 Speaker 2: 130 such cases in the past decade alone. 12 00:00:45,509 --> 00:00:48,860 Speaker 2: So what can you do then to protect yourself in 13 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:53,220 Speaker 2: a similar situation? Today, I'm asking Lim Fung Ping, he's 14 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:56,090 Speaker 2: director and head of family and private wealth Practice group 15 00:00:56,090 --> 00:00:59,509 Speaker 2: at Yuan Law LLC. Hi Pin, welcome to the show. 16 00:00:59,779 --> 00:01:02,380 Speaker 2: Thank you, Andrew. I'm happy to be here. Now, you 17 00:01:02,380 --> 00:01:05,660 Speaker 2: must have seen many cases of families fighting over property 18 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:09,059 Speaker 2: or assets in your career. What's the one that stood 19 00:01:09,059 --> 00:01:11,899 Speaker 2: out to you the most so far? What's trending now, 20 00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:15,279 Speaker 2: what's unfortunate, as you say is instances where 21 00:01:15,489 --> 00:01:20,190 Speaker 2: Infighting in a family over property, how a property should 22 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:24,110 Speaker 2: be sold. One very common and increasing trend we have 23 00:01:24,110 --> 00:01:28,379 Speaker 2: is what is called forced sale kind of applications in court. 24 00:01:28,910 --> 00:01:32,230 Speaker 2: So the scenarios looks like this, A and B are 25 00:01:32,230 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 2: co-owner of a property, could be a condo, could be 26 00:01:34,919 --> 00:01:40,790 Speaker 2: an HDB landed, and A wants out and B wants 27 00:01:40,790 --> 00:01:43,750 Speaker 2: to stay. So it could be parent and child, or 28 00:01:43,750 --> 00:01:44,750 Speaker 2: it could be two siblings. 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,139 Speaker 2: So in the past 10 years, I've done close to 30 00:01:49,139 --> 00:01:52,569 Speaker 2: 10 cases already, so it could be like 1 a year. 31 00:01:53,019 --> 00:01:57,699 Speaker 2: So that's a common scenario and when a party wants 32 00:01:57,699 --> 00:02:00,010 Speaker 2: to move on, the party that wants to move on 33 00:02:00,010 --> 00:02:02,900 Speaker 2: then apply to the High Court, yeah. OK. Is this 34 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:04,290 Speaker 2: worrying to you? Are you concerned? 35 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,910 Speaker 2: It is and I think one of the concerning points 36 00:02:08,910 --> 00:02:11,350 Speaker 2: is that how did the family land up in this 37 00:02:11,350 --> 00:02:15,589 Speaker 2: kind of situation in my convincing practice, which means when 38 00:02:15,589 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: people buy and sell property. 39 00:02:17,538 --> 00:02:20,669 Speaker 2: I, as a lawyer, try to help them be mindful 40 00:02:20,669 --> 00:02:26,339 Speaker 2: about long-term arrangements, right? So how you buy property matters, 41 00:02:26,429 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 2: but we lawyers call the manner of holding, whether it's 42 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,190 Speaker 2: joint tenancy or tenants in common, can affect the nature 43 00:02:32,190 --> 00:02:35,100 Speaker 2: of the holding can affect the parties for the long term. 44 00:02:35,429 --> 00:02:39,309 Speaker 2: And holding is basically legally for ownership. That's right. We 45 00:02:39,309 --> 00:02:42,380 Speaker 2: have two people and you have divergent views that that 46 00:02:42,589 --> 00:02:45,148 Speaker 2: complicates things. So for example, HDB. 47 00:02:45,758 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 2: Some people think, oh, very convenient, uh, two people who 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: are a bit, uh, I won't say elderly but past 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,869 Speaker 2: middle age, and then when they buy HDB flat, then 50 00:02:54,869 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: they conveniently ask their single child to join them, many 51 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,929 Speaker 2: cases like that, I have yeah, and the single child, 52 00:03:03,119 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: adult child says, la, we are Asian, right, so we 53 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,179 Speaker 2: help our parents lah, you know, we can get the loan, 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:09,829 Speaker 2: that kind of thing, and then. 55 00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:13,940 Speaker 2: Very commonly that single person finds someone special and then 56 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:17,500 Speaker 2: they want to apply for the BTO, then there's a 57 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,428 Speaker 2: situation here and that's very unfortunate because the child has 58 00:03:20,429 --> 00:03:23,449 Speaker 2: every right to remove his name so that he's eligible 59 00:03:23,449 --> 00:03:26,770 Speaker 2: for his BTO right? and that's one very common scenario. 60 00:03:26,979 --> 00:03:29,850 Speaker 2: So the family there thought, oh, it's convenient for financing 61 00:03:29,850 --> 00:03:32,740 Speaker 2: to get the adult child in, but they didn't think, hey, 62 00:03:34,589 --> 00:03:38,190 Speaker 2: down the road. So along familial arrangements like this is 63 00:03:38,190 --> 00:03:42,250 Speaker 2: very common for refinancing, but another situation of course is 64 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:44,750 Speaker 2: writing of wills. I think it's something that we've discussed 65 00:03:44,750 --> 00:03:47,589 Speaker 2: here on the Money Talks podcast also how Singaporeans are 66 00:03:47,589 --> 00:03:51,550 Speaker 2: unaware of the importance of having a will written out 67 00:03:51,550 --> 00:03:55,029 Speaker 2: because it really does help mitigate some of these issues 68 00:03:55,029 --> 00:03:57,919 Speaker 2: that you're talking about right now. Do you think that 69 00:03:57,919 --> 00:03:59,270 Speaker 2: more work needs to be done to 70 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:02,679 Speaker 2: Raise the awareness and the importance of writing a will. 71 00:04:03,050 --> 00:04:05,570 Speaker 2: I've written 3 books. My first book was about the LPA, 72 00:04:05,649 --> 00:04:07,850 Speaker 2: my second one was about probate, and my 3rd 1 73 00:04:07,850 --> 00:04:11,009 Speaker 2: is about family matters. In all my prefaces on my books, 74 00:04:11,130 --> 00:04:17,570 Speaker 2: I say that every Singaporean has a very oversimplified view 75 00:04:17,570 --> 00:04:20,178 Speaker 2: of things. I like to put it that way and 76 00:04:20,178 --> 00:04:23,609 Speaker 2: in in one of my prefaces, I also say it's 77 00:04:23,609 --> 00:04:26,130 Speaker 2: maybe partly because we are a new society. 78 00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:29,489 Speaker 2: To put it politely, sometimes we have this immigrant mentality. 79 00:04:29,690 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: If you look at American culture, even like New York City, 80 00:04:32,730 --> 00:04:34,808 Speaker 2: if you look at the Greeks and Italians and even 81 00:04:34,809 --> 00:04:37,170 Speaker 2: the Chinese, they are very frugal. What's the hallmark of 82 00:04:37,170 --> 00:04:41,410 Speaker 2: immigrant mentality? Frugality, so why spend more money. So I, 83 00:04:41,809 --> 00:04:43,089 Speaker 2: I believe that 84 00:04:43,135 --> 00:04:47,605 Speaker 2: as professionals or as concerned stakeholders in society, whether it's 85 00:04:47,605 --> 00:04:51,325 Speaker 2: government or self-help groups, we need to understand where our 86 00:04:51,325 --> 00:04:54,605 Speaker 2: population is at. If people have this immigrant mentality, then 87 00:04:54,605 --> 00:04:57,445 Speaker 2: they don't see the value of it. Everything is simple 88 00:04:57,445 --> 00:04:58,924 Speaker 2: and if you look at a lot of ads, a 89 00:04:58,924 --> 00:04:59,774 Speaker 2: lot of requests that 90 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:01,559 Speaker 2: My team gets, he said, oh, I want to do 91 00:05:01,559 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: a simple will. Have you ever asked a doctor, I 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,660 Speaker 2: want a simple operation. No, you let the doctor decide 93 00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:10,368 Speaker 2: whether this operation is simple or not, right? So yeah, 94 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:13,350 Speaker 2: it's not really up to you. Even now with patients 95 00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: and doctors, oh, doc, I want antibiotics. Many of my 96 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: doctor friends go, who made you the doctor? So that's 97 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: why I come back to your point. Creating awareness and 98 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,510 Speaker 2: understanding is very important and in my area of work, 99 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,849 Speaker 2: the clients that I really appreciate. 100 00:05:30,130 --> 00:05:33,070 Speaker 2: And not the high net worth ones alone, but it 101 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:36,149 Speaker 2: happens to be that not all, but a lot of 102 00:05:36,149 --> 00:05:38,669 Speaker 2: good family, I call it good families, they understand the 103 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:43,529 Speaker 2: value of doing a comprehensive will, or a simple will. 104 00:05:44,350 --> 00:05:48,309 Speaker 2: So let's take the scenario of the average Singaporean, 80% 105 00:05:48,309 --> 00:05:51,260 Speaker 2: of us live in HDB flats. Now, somebody 106 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: In their 50s, says, oh, I want to finally do 107 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,519 Speaker 2: my will, I want do a simple will. I just 108 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:00,549 Speaker 2: want to give my HDB flat to my two children, 109 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:06,558 Speaker 2: 2 is enough. So give my two children bolela. How 110 00:06:06,559 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: can it be? Why do I need to pay a 111 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,630 Speaker 2: lawyer $600 for that or whatever $100? But they are 112 00:06:12,630 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: not aware of the consequences and it gets even more 113 00:06:15,359 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: complicated with private property because let's say father wants to 114 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,179 Speaker 2: give to 115 00:06:20,488 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 2: Two children again, and then the two children already have 116 00:06:23,359 --> 00:06:26,170 Speaker 2: their own HDB flats, so they can't inherit this private 117 00:06:26,170 --> 00:06:30,260 Speaker 2: property depending on the scenarios and then let's say they 118 00:06:30,619 --> 00:06:34,450 Speaker 2: Inherit it nevertheless, and then, but maybe one wants to 119 00:06:34,450 --> 00:06:37,959 Speaker 2: say maybe even without HDB flats, they want to inherit it, 120 00:06:37,970 --> 00:06:40,089 Speaker 2: maybe it's a bungalow, so one has to buy the 121 00:06:40,089 --> 00:06:44,399 Speaker 2: other one out that incurs PSD, potentially ABSD, all these taxes, 122 00:06:44,769 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 2: there was no planning. So I have even moneyed families 123 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,369 Speaker 2: that the grandfather leaves at $8 million.10 million dollars, $150 124 00:06:52,369 --> 00:06:57,049 Speaker 2: million property, and it's given to 16 beneficiaries. Yeah, even 125 00:06:57,049 --> 00:06:59,410 Speaker 2: grandchildren have 116 share in the. 126 00:06:59,678 --> 00:07:03,470 Speaker 2: It's a minefield. So there was not enough planning and 127 00:07:03,470 --> 00:07:05,869 Speaker 2: in terms of wills also, I've seen wills that were 128 00:07:05,869 --> 00:07:08,570 Speaker 2: made 35 years ago, the postal code is 2 digits. 129 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:10,790 Speaker 2: So I tell people now in terms of wills, you 130 00:07:10,790 --> 00:07:11,769 Speaker 2: should treat it like you're 131 00:07:12,130 --> 00:07:14,730 Speaker 2: iOS or your app, if you don't update it, I 132 00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:17,250 Speaker 2: can't use my SingPass. So your will is the same 133 00:07:17,250 --> 00:07:20,730 Speaker 2: because life changes life stages and things like that. And 134 00:07:20,730 --> 00:07:22,929 Speaker 2: not just your life, but I think the environment around 135 00:07:22,929 --> 00:07:26,850 Speaker 2: you changes as well. Laws change, regulations change, tax changes 136 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:29,730 Speaker 2: as well, yeah. I'm curious about that case where you 137 00:07:29,730 --> 00:07:32,649 Speaker 2: have parents leaving their child in the will or I'll 138 00:07:32,649 --> 00:07:35,410 Speaker 2: just split it with the 2 children or 16 beneficiaries, 139 00:07:35,489 --> 00:07:36,079 Speaker 2: what have you. 140 00:07:36,369 --> 00:07:39,869 Speaker 2: So what would your advice be then in those scenarios, 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: let's say you catch it before the owner of the 142 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,839 Speaker 2: property dies. What would your advice be then? It's the 143 00:07:44,839 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: same in anything in life. 144 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:49,268 Speaker 2: What's the most important thing to you? What's the objective? 145 00:07:49,329 --> 00:07:51,470 Speaker 2: You go to a car showroom, right? What do you 146 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:54,190 Speaker 2: need a car for? What's your budget? Are you a 147 00:07:54,190 --> 00:07:56,500 Speaker 2: car enthusiast or not? Do you want to just go 148 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:58,829 Speaker 2: and service the car once a year, that type of, 149 00:07:59,140 --> 00:08:02,670 Speaker 2: or what? So same if you will. So I understand 150 00:08:02,670 --> 00:08:04,790 Speaker 2: what you're saying. A lot of ladies come to me 151 00:08:04,790 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: because I think ladies are more, they want to do 152 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: housekeeping and I always tell men, you're very blessed if 153 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:11,190 Speaker 2: you have a 154 00:08:11,234 --> 00:08:13,744 Speaker 2: wife that wants to drag you down to the law 155 00:08:13,744 --> 00:08:16,625 Speaker 2: office to get advice or do up your will. And yeah, 156 00:08:16,744 --> 00:08:19,295 Speaker 2: so how I help the clients actually what's most important 157 00:08:19,295 --> 00:08:24,135 Speaker 2: to you. Yeah, and it's quite normal for a person 158 00:08:24,135 --> 00:08:28,225 Speaker 2: to without advice, I just want to be fair, Asian, right? 159 00:08:28,404 --> 00:08:33,655 Speaker 2: My parents are like that. I just want to be fair. Yeah, yeah. 160 00:08:33,905 --> 00:08:35,744 Speaker 2: And another question I ask them is. 161 00:08:36,719 --> 00:08:40,049 Speaker 2: What's most important to you besides being fair? There are 162 00:08:40,049 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: certain things that I will ask them, for example, and 163 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,049 Speaker 2: there was a grandfather, 68-year-old grandfather who had 5 very 164 00:08:46,049 --> 00:08:49,309 Speaker 2: successful children. I think he had one profession, each one lawyer, 165 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:52,530 Speaker 2: one doctor, one banker, everything, yeah, he had a full 166 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:55,799 Speaker 2: house and he had 7 grandchildren, and he in particular 167 00:08:55,799 --> 00:08:58,419 Speaker 2: wanted to be fair to his children and his grandchildren. 168 00:08:58,489 --> 00:09:01,250 Speaker 2: I said, I was a much younger lawyer then, so 169 00:09:01,250 --> 00:09:04,530 Speaker 2: I said, uncle, wow, you're really blessed. I said, do 170 00:09:04,530 --> 00:09:05,809 Speaker 2: your children really need money? 171 00:09:06,429 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: They said, no lah, they are doing so well. I said, 172 00:09:09,869 --> 00:09:12,349 Speaker 2: then what is, what you really want to do with 173 00:09:12,349 --> 00:09:16,108 Speaker 2: your legacy? I said, oh, actually I want to show 174 00:09:16,109 --> 00:09:19,348 Speaker 2: my grandchildren love and show them what's the importance of 175 00:09:19,349 --> 00:09:20,510 Speaker 2: having a good education. 176 00:09:21,070 --> 00:09:24,229 Speaker 2: Right, and so it, long story short, he turned his 177 00:09:24,229 --> 00:09:30,270 Speaker 2: whole world into creating an educational trust for his 7 grandchildren. Yeah, 178 00:09:30,469 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: that's nice. What about the other side of the negotiating 179 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,469 Speaker 2: table or the beneficiaries, right? Have you come into instances 180 00:09:37,469 --> 00:09:40,909 Speaker 2: where even if the beneficiaries are well off, they're. 181 00:09:41,583 --> 00:09:44,223 Speaker 2: They still believe, no, I have a right to this 182 00:09:44,223 --> 00:09:47,302 Speaker 2: piece of property. It's about my right to possession. So 183 00:09:47,302 --> 00:09:50,382 Speaker 2: how do you handle that? These days, these kind of 184 00:09:50,381 --> 00:09:55,622 Speaker 2: scenarios also are coming around and some parents take the 185 00:09:55,622 --> 00:09:59,103 Speaker 2: view of Warren Buffett and the like. I've really given 186 00:09:59,102 --> 00:10:00,572 Speaker 2: you stuff. 187 00:10:01,226 --> 00:10:03,375 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna give my kids anything because why I 188 00:10:03,375 --> 00:10:06,216 Speaker 2: asked you this question is because in my mind, and 189 00:10:06,216 --> 00:10:08,055 Speaker 2: I'm going to put it quite crudely as well, you 190 00:10:08,056 --> 00:10:09,856 Speaker 2: don't have to be poor to want to fight for 191 00:10:09,856 --> 00:10:14,226 Speaker 2: a piece of what you think you deserve. We just 192 00:10:14,226 --> 00:10:17,976 Speaker 2: resolve this case, they were fighting over $30,000 that's it, 193 00:10:18,015 --> 00:10:20,296 Speaker 2: they fought for one year and they're not rich and 194 00:10:20,296 --> 00:10:21,295 Speaker 2: we were telling them. 195 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:25,159 Speaker 2: Why are you fighting? Can we help you settle this 196 00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:30,340 Speaker 2: principle is principle, and then I said, OK, but principles 197 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:33,179 Speaker 2: are costly and but some people, you have to respect 198 00:10:33,179 --> 00:10:35,900 Speaker 2: their decision. Yeah, but coming back to that, yeah, so 199 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:38,409 Speaker 2: at the end of the day when the executor says, I, 200 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:40,859 Speaker 2: I want to just give to charity and nothing to 201 00:10:40,859 --> 00:10:41,539 Speaker 2: my children. 202 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:45,069 Speaker 2: Uh, in Singapore, it's very hard to challenge, right? In Australia, 203 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:49,549 Speaker 2: in other jurisdictions, there are possible means to to do it, right? 204 00:10:49,739 --> 00:10:53,010 Speaker 2: Singapore is very hard for a beneficiary to challenge and say, oh, 205 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:54,940 Speaker 2: I want a piece of the action because I'm entitled 206 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:57,989 Speaker 2: to it. In Singapore, there's only a law that says 207 00:10:57,989 --> 00:11:00,909 Speaker 2: that if you are a dependent, so if you're handicapped 208 00:11:00,909 --> 00:11:03,709 Speaker 2: or you're disabled, and and also that only entitles you 209 00:11:03,710 --> 00:11:07,669 Speaker 2: to maintenance, maintenance to do like to survive, not like 210 00:11:07,669 --> 00:11:09,549 Speaker 2: a share of the estate. I'm seeing more. 211 00:11:09,635 --> 00:11:12,175 Speaker 2: More of these actually you're right. They feel that they've 212 00:11:12,176 --> 00:11:14,695 Speaker 2: done enough for their kids or even their grandkids and 213 00:11:14,815 --> 00:11:19,875 Speaker 2: that's it. Just out of curiosity, what proportion of cases 214 00:11:19,875 --> 00:11:25,096 Speaker 2: involve private property versus HDB flat? Anecdotally, I would just 215 00:11:25,096 --> 00:11:29,785 Speaker 2: say it's in my 50/50. It is pretty split down 216 00:11:29,785 --> 00:11:33,176 Speaker 2: the middle. OK, I think it's 50/50, but bearing in 217 00:11:33,176 --> 00:11:37,045 Speaker 2: mind that 80% of us live in HDB flats, yeah. 218 00:11:37,252 --> 00:11:41,231 Speaker 2: But anecdotally is fifty-fifty. Let's go into the process now, 219 00:11:41,322 --> 00:11:44,312 Speaker 2: the bit of the technical aspect of a property dispute. 220 00:11:44,481 --> 00:11:47,002 Speaker 2: How are they first raised? How do they first come 221 00:11:47,002 --> 00:11:49,002 Speaker 2: to you and then what are the key steps you 222 00:11:49,002 --> 00:11:51,881 Speaker 2: would take once that case lands on your desk. So 223 00:11:51,881 --> 00:11:55,932 Speaker 2: typically how things go in Singapore, mostly people will make 224 00:11:55,932 --> 00:11:58,761 Speaker 2: inquiries in the law firm. They will write in an 225 00:11:58,761 --> 00:12:01,442 Speaker 2: email and then say this is the problem, right? I 226 00:12:01,442 --> 00:12:04,762 Speaker 2: want out or whatever it is, I want to share. 227 00:12:05,119 --> 00:12:08,010 Speaker 2: So whatever the inquiry is, the proper thing to do 228 00:12:08,010 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 2: is have a meet up and have a discussion and 229 00:12:12,169 --> 00:12:15,650 Speaker 2: discuss with the client the objectives and also what I 230 00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: would do is propose certain options and since you're asking 231 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,479 Speaker 2: what are the steps, one of the first options is 232 00:12:22,479 --> 00:12:26,130 Speaker 2: not going to court. Yes, I get that sense. One 233 00:12:26,130 --> 00:12:29,020 Speaker 2: of the first options is actually to me is to 234 00:12:29,020 --> 00:12:31,409 Speaker 2: advise the client of their rights. 235 00:12:32,030 --> 00:12:36,909 Speaker 2: Because some people come with misconceptions, misconceptions of what they're 236 00:12:36,909 --> 00:12:39,469 Speaker 2: entitled to. So some people need a reality check, not 237 00:12:39,469 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: in Singapore. You watch too much Judge Judy, yes, yeah. 238 00:12:43,909 --> 00:12:46,510 Speaker 2: So the first step is always to get advisory and 239 00:12:46,510 --> 00:12:49,819 Speaker 2: assessment and then your legal advisor can just tell you 240 00:12:50,030 --> 00:12:52,630 Speaker 2: this is the score, this is where you stand, and 241 00:12:52,630 --> 00:12:55,830 Speaker 2: then for me, I would say, oh, you have a 242 00:12:55,830 --> 00:12:59,469 Speaker 2: claim or you have a case, but it is at 243 00:12:59,469 --> 00:13:00,429 Speaker 2: the moment, not. 244 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:05,770 Speaker 2: Ready, it's not strong enough. So first thing assessment, giving 245 00:13:05,770 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 2: the kinds of options. One of the options could be 246 00:13:07,719 --> 00:13:10,569 Speaker 2: to strengthen their case, gather more evidence, but finally you 247 00:13:10,570 --> 00:13:12,590 Speaker 2: reach a stage where again it's not go to court, 248 00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:14,799 Speaker 2: it's to write a letter to the other side and say, 249 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,728 Speaker 2: make a proposal, say, look, this is the situation, this 250 00:13:17,729 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 2: is my stand. I think this is a fair proposal. 251 00:13:20,729 --> 00:13:22,289 Speaker 2: I pay you this or you pay me this. 252 00:13:22,385 --> 00:13:24,255 Speaker 2: And we do this or what, this is how we 253 00:13:24,255 --> 00:13:27,875 Speaker 2: do things. So it's essentially mediation up to a degree. 254 00:13:27,976 --> 00:13:30,786 Speaker 2: So at what point then does it end up in court? OK, 255 00:13:30,955 --> 00:13:34,176 Speaker 2: it's not quite mediation, what we call it is negotiation. 256 00:13:34,695 --> 00:13:37,455 Speaker 2: So you write a proposal letter and wait for the 257 00:13:37,455 --> 00:13:40,096 Speaker 2: other side to respond. Most lawyers will actually go through 258 00:13:40,096 --> 00:13:42,705 Speaker 2: this process of negotiation by letter, at least one round to. 259 00:13:43,471 --> 00:13:45,901 Speaker 2: When that doesn't work, and then we have to see, 260 00:13:46,432 --> 00:13:49,752 Speaker 2: you mentioned mediation in family justice court and in the 261 00:13:49,752 --> 00:13:53,192 Speaker 2: state courts, there are court mediations, which is free, which 262 00:13:53,192 --> 00:13:55,431 Speaker 2: is very good. That means the court doesn't charge for it, 263 00:13:55,552 --> 00:13:57,791 Speaker 2: but that's because I think our courts really believe in 264 00:13:57,791 --> 00:14:00,410 Speaker 2: mediation and since I've been in practice for 28 years, 265 00:14:00,552 --> 00:14:02,790 Speaker 2: there's always been this and it's been going from strength 266 00:14:02,791 --> 00:14:05,791 Speaker 2: to strength. So mediation, I'm a firm believer in it. 267 00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:08,309 Speaker 2: Because I think mediation is also a way for the 268 00:14:08,309 --> 00:14:11,429 Speaker 2: mediator to give parties a reality check because everyone thinks 269 00:14:11,429 --> 00:14:14,789 Speaker 2: their case is bound to win. Is that the ultimatum 270 00:14:14,789 --> 00:14:18,070 Speaker 2: before it goes to court that mediation? Well, yes, if 271 00:14:18,070 --> 00:14:20,330 Speaker 2: there's a breakthrough in mediation. 272 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: Like mediation, is it one day and that's it, but 273 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,190 Speaker 2: court mediation normally is just not one day. If there's hope, 274 00:14:27,359 --> 00:14:29,239 Speaker 2: there can be a second round and that's where the 275 00:14:29,239 --> 00:14:34,159 Speaker 2: court mediator, normally a district judge will facilitate the parties 276 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:37,789 Speaker 2: coming to a middle ground, but private mediation usually just 277 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,270 Speaker 2: usually it's just one off. They try to finish. 278 00:14:40,940 --> 00:14:42,909 Speaker 2: If it starts at 9 they'll try to finish by 279 00:14:42,909 --> 00:14:45,460 Speaker 2: 9 p.m. and then that's it, yeah. So at what 280 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:48,619 Speaker 2: point does it go to court when fails? What kind 281 00:14:48,619 --> 00:14:51,940 Speaker 2: of cost are we looking at here from start to 282 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:54,140 Speaker 2: end of that entire process that you talked about here 283 00:14:54,140 --> 00:14:57,380 Speaker 2: and which one is going to be the most expensive 284 00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:00,289 Speaker 2: part of the process? The initial part of writing letters 285 00:15:00,289 --> 00:15:03,500 Speaker 2: is can give us a range, it will be anything 286 00:15:03,500 --> 00:15:09,059 Speaker 2: from 20 to $5000 just to start negotiating, but when 287 00:15:09,059 --> 00:15:09,940 Speaker 2: you pass that. 288 00:15:10,330 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 2: When you go to court, it starts at 8 because 289 00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:15,849 Speaker 2: the 4 year application goes to the high court. Yeah, 290 00:15:15,969 --> 00:15:18,489 Speaker 2: so that's different as well. And it really depends. It 291 00:15:18,489 --> 00:15:22,609 Speaker 2: can range anything from 8 to 10, 12K and go 292 00:15:22,609 --> 00:15:24,909 Speaker 2: all the way to 40, 50k and this is in 293 00:15:24,909 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: the High Court. Yeah, so that is the reason why 294 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,570 Speaker 2: when you usually go to the High Court, it's usually about. 295 00:15:31,409 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: A condo or a landed piece of property because the 296 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,809 Speaker 2: stakes are higher, it's a higher ticket item, right? So 297 00:15:36,809 --> 00:15:39,489 Speaker 2: if it's in the arena of divorce in the family 298 00:15:39,489 --> 00:15:44,409 Speaker 2: justice court, then that's where another very big area happens 299 00:15:44,409 --> 00:15:46,809 Speaker 2: as well when I get inquiries about children. 300 00:15:47,169 --> 00:15:49,659 Speaker 2: And I meet the father or the mother for the 301 00:15:49,659 --> 00:15:51,419 Speaker 2: first time, we talk about children, who are going to 302 00:15:51,419 --> 00:15:53,510 Speaker 2: get the children. But the next big thing, in fact, 303 00:15:53,619 --> 00:15:58,500 Speaker 2: some people talk about the, yeah, because, to be fair, 304 00:15:58,739 --> 00:16:00,900 Speaker 2: sometimes it's not an issue that the kids are going 305 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:02,549 Speaker 2: to go with the mom anyway. So now they worry 306 00:16:02,549 --> 00:16:04,940 Speaker 2: about the HDB flat or their condo or their private 307 00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:08,500 Speaker 2: property and then there again in even the family justice court, 308 00:16:08,539 --> 00:16:10,059 Speaker 2: you're trying to deal with it. It's one. 309 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: the big factors in the divorce proceedings. Just going back 310 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,809 Speaker 2: to the portion of the question, do the lawyers' fees 311 00:16:15,809 --> 00:16:18,330 Speaker 2: come up to a lot in these cases as well 312 00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:20,690 Speaker 2: in terms of what we will have to be prepared 313 00:16:20,690 --> 00:16:23,849 Speaker 2: to pay? It can be if both lawyers are trying 314 00:16:23,849 --> 00:16:27,650 Speaker 2: to be therapeutic collaborative, and both lawyers want to keep 315 00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:31,119 Speaker 2: on negotiating, but one of their clients, I want to fight. 316 00:16:31,530 --> 00:16:33,159 Speaker 2: You can't do anything, lawyer has to say. 317 00:16:33,510 --> 00:16:35,869 Speaker 2: I have to respect the client's view and advance his case. 318 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,090 Speaker 2: So some people just don't lend themselves to mediation. It 319 00:16:40,090 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: says fight means fight. So it's very yeah, even against 320 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: the lawyer's advice. They just said no, I just, or 321 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,359 Speaker 2: another way some people are interesting, they say, I just 322 00:16:51,359 --> 00:16:54,270 Speaker 2: want to let the judge decide. Yeah, for some people, 323 00:16:54,359 --> 00:16:55,469 Speaker 2: I think it's just 324 00:16:56,489 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: I don't want to decide, so I let the judge decide. 325 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,599 Speaker 2: So it's just like you have a person says, I 326 00:17:01,599 --> 00:17:03,549 Speaker 2: don't want to negotiate with you. I don't want to 327 00:17:03,549 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: consider your proposal. I just want to present, both of 328 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,780 Speaker 2: us present everything to the judge and let the judge decide. 329 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,140 Speaker 2: So in a way they're not making a decision. So 330 00:17:12,140 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: sometimes the mediation is difficult and I see my counterpart 331 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,150 Speaker 2: lawyer having a challenge because 332 00:17:17,550 --> 00:17:21,109 Speaker 2: His client or her client doesn't want to decide, and 333 00:17:21,109 --> 00:17:24,139 Speaker 2: he turns to her, you decide for me, I can't 334 00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:27,790 Speaker 2: decide for you. I can't decide for you. Of course, 335 00:17:27,949 --> 00:17:31,900 Speaker 2: it's wonderful if two people can compromise and just say, OK, 336 00:17:32,229 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 2: and that can be done very early on at negotiation 337 00:17:35,719 --> 00:17:39,349 Speaker 2: stage of two letters. Say the dispute involves family members 338 00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:43,948 Speaker 2: who don't have an alternative home or can't put their 339 00:17:43,949 --> 00:17:45,270 Speaker 2: share of the bill. 340 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,949 Speaker 2: What options are available to them, what kind of support 341 00:17:48,949 --> 00:17:52,599 Speaker 2: can they get and also on the other side of 342 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:55,569 Speaker 2: the aisle, what will the suing party for the lack 343 00:17:55,569 --> 00:17:58,438 Speaker 2: of a better term, need to prepare for? Let's take 344 00:17:58,439 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: the HDB situation, it's a divorce context but same. The 345 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,189 Speaker 2: owner was the gentleman and the lady was not Singaporean, 346 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,409 Speaker 2: they were married, but 347 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:10,670 Speaker 2: She's just a registered occupier, but after the divorce, HDB 348 00:18:10,670 --> 00:18:13,550 Speaker 2: ruling is that she can't stay there anymore, she cannot 349 00:18:13,550 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: be the registered occupant doesn't really have in that sense. OK. 350 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 2: So that is of course a very weak position for 351 00:18:21,239 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: the party that is not a co-owner, so she has 352 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: to move out. But if she's Singaporean citizen or PR 353 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: but definitely citizen. 354 00:18:29,959 --> 00:18:33,909 Speaker 2: I know the HDB has many schemes like rental flats 355 00:18:33,910 --> 00:18:36,139 Speaker 2: and things like that. I understand what you're saying because 356 00:18:36,469 --> 00:18:38,949 Speaker 2: some people can be very transactional and says, I want 357 00:18:38,949 --> 00:18:41,229 Speaker 2: you out, even though you may have a right to 358 00:18:41,229 --> 00:18:43,708 Speaker 2: be there. So that's where if the person has a 359 00:18:43,709 --> 00:18:45,550 Speaker 2: right and they came to see me, they said, look, 360 00:18:45,589 --> 00:18:49,430 Speaker 2: let's negotiate. If you can't upkeep the place and things 361 00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:53,319 Speaker 2: like that, then, then you need to 362 00:18:53,910 --> 00:18:57,139 Speaker 2: Come to some compromise if maybe if it's a private property, 363 00:18:57,349 --> 00:18:59,550 Speaker 2: sell and then buy a two-room flat or something, there 364 00:18:59,550 --> 00:19:02,709 Speaker 2: must be some practical solution, but I think what we 365 00:19:02,709 --> 00:19:05,020 Speaker 2: are getting at is that people don't sit down and talk. 366 00:19:05,229 --> 00:19:08,750 Speaker 2: It's a really tricky conversation to have, but one that 367 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:11,270 Speaker 2: I was really glad to have had with you. So 368 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:12,988 Speaker 2: thanks very much for sitting in this chair. Thank you 369 00:19:12,989 --> 00:19:13,550 Speaker 2: for having me. 370 00:19:14,145 --> 00:19:16,536 Speaker 2: For being on the Money Talks podcast. Listeners, we hope 371 00:19:16,536 --> 00:19:20,375 Speaker 2: this episode provides the steps to make sure that you 372 00:19:20,375 --> 00:19:25,336 Speaker 2: and your loved one are protected from future disputes. Hopefully 373 00:19:25,336 --> 00:19:28,176 Speaker 2: none at all. As they say, sharing is caring, so 374 00:19:28,176 --> 00:19:31,004 Speaker 2: if you know anyone who might benefit from this episode, 375 00:19:31,296 --> 00:19:34,494 Speaker 2: please send it their way. Share feedback with us. 376 00:19:34,761 --> 00:19:38,521 Speaker 2: as well. Money Talks is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 377 00:19:38,722 --> 00:19:41,802 Speaker 2: YouTube Music and Me Listen as well. You can leave 378 00:19:41,802 --> 00:19:44,291 Speaker 2: us a rating there as well. Thank you to the team. 379 00:19:44,302 --> 00:19:48,962 Speaker 2: Tiffany Ang, Junaini Johari, Joanne Chan, Hanida Amin, Sae Wind, 380 00:19:49,082 --> 00:19:52,041 Speaker 2: Ili Manso, Tan Wen Lin. I'm Andrea Heng, and this 381 00:19:52,041 --> 00:19:54,281 Speaker 2: has been CNA's Money Talks podcast. Thank you very much 382 00:19:54,281 --> 00:19:54,832 Speaker 2: for listening.