WEBVTT - Finding work after being retrenched 0:00:03.470 --> 0:00:05.699 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:10.189 --> 0:00:13.529 Hi, this is Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. 0:00:13.829 --> 0:00:17.670 We've all been seeing news of layoffs recently and that's 0:00:17.670 --> 0:00:20.718 always not something very nice to hear. In a previous 0:00:20.719 --> 0:00:23.680 episode where we discussed the signs before a company is 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:27.229 headed for a retrenchment exercise, actually I was shocked to 0:00:27.229 --> 0:00:29.940 learn that there are organizations that retrench their staff at 0:00:29.940 --> 0:00:32.388 the end or even start of the year to avoid 0:00:32.389 --> 0:00:35.430 giving up bonuses. Yes, if unfortunately you're one of them. 0:00:35.549 --> 0:00:38.098 Or you've been retrenched yourself not too long ago, and 0:00:38.098 --> 0:00:40.459 you're now looking for employment, you want to stay on 0:00:40.459 --> 0:00:42.900 this podcast. Today we'll be talking about how to find 0:00:42.900 --> 0:00:45.540 your next job after you have been retrenched. With us 0:00:45.540 --> 0:00:47.900 in the studio today to give us some career advice 0:00:47.900 --> 0:00:51.110 is Sean Tong. He's the head of Asia for HR 0:00:51.110 --> 0:00:55.259 recruitment firm, Fraser Jones. Sean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks 0:00:55.259 --> 0:00:58.419 for having me here. Sean, in your line of work, 0:00:58.619 --> 0:01:01.049 do companies tend to view a 0:01:01.099 --> 0:01:05.410 Job applicant negatively if they've been retrenched before? I would 0:01:05.410 --> 0:01:09.250 say yes and no. They still look at the candidate 0:01:09.250 --> 0:01:13.480 past employment history. So say if a candidate has about 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.819 10 years of experience, and the news is made public, 0:01:16.849 --> 0:01:20.809 for example, Company A going through retrenchment this year due 0:01:20.809 --> 0:01:24.120 to right sizing exercise. I mean, this is public news 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.569 and the candidate could explain himself or her. 0:01:27.199 --> 0:01:30.400 during the interview and that's perfectly all right. So what 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.550 are some things that you would maybe advise companies when they, 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.360 let's say have an applicant on the table, they're looking 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.639 at their resume and it says that they have been retrenched. 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:41.400 What would you advise companies to look for when they're 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.919 looking at such an applicant? I think they should look 0:01:43.919 --> 0:01:47.959 beyond the current reason why they have been retrenched. Look 0:01:47.959 --> 0:01:50.440 at the skill sets they could bring on board and 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.120 value add to the organization. 0:01:52.370 --> 0:01:56.459 And more importantly is the candidate himself or herself, meeting 0:01:56.459 --> 0:01:59.139 them in person. Do they fit the culture of the 0:01:59.139 --> 0:02:03.300 organization beyond the paper itself, but that said, it's very 0:02:03.300 --> 0:02:07.059 difficult to take away that unconscious biasedness because we all 0:02:07.059 --> 0:02:12.000 know that Singapore market is very competitive, both locals or expats. 0:02:12.460 --> 0:02:15.138 The challenge is because of the competition. 0:02:15.660 --> 0:02:19.339 People who are without a job being immediately available, always 0:02:19.339 --> 0:02:22.860 find it harder to get an interview opportunity as compared 0:02:22.860 --> 0:02:25.619 to someone who is currently in the job. This is 0:02:25.619 --> 0:02:28.940 just human behavior, hiring manager behavior. So Sean, what you're 0:02:28.940 --> 0:02:31.049 saying is someone who is already 0:02:31.100 --> 0:02:33.210 Working who's still in a job will be seen more 0:02:33.210 --> 0:02:36.448 positively by the next employer as compared to someone who's 0:02:36.449 --> 0:02:38.649 out of a job, even though the person is immediately 0:02:38.649 --> 0:02:41.520 available for work. That's correct. I think the only difference 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:45.960 is if companies are looking for someone urgently to fill 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:46.610 the position. 0:02:46.990 --> 0:02:49.779 Then that's when the pros and cons, you know, being 0:02:50.229 --> 0:02:53.470 immediately available is an advantage. I think a lot of 0:02:53.470 --> 0:02:57.500 people would be curious to know if today I'm being retrenched, 0:02:57.750 --> 0:03:00.229 what are my odds in being able to quickly get 0:03:00.229 --> 0:03:02.800 a job? A quick stat that I just pulled out, 0:03:02.910 --> 0:03:05.220 so according to the manpower Ministry labor stats. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:10.589 They say that in Q2 last year, 2024, the re-entry 0:03:10.589 --> 0:03:15.839 rate was 55%. Then Q3 it went up to 60.4%. 0:03:15.839 --> 0:03:19.229 That's the resident rate of reentry to the workforce within 0:03:19.229 --> 0:03:20.600 six months of retrenchment. 0:03:20.979 --> 0:03:23.679 So I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I mean it's an improvement, 0:03:23.970 --> 0:03:27.850 but 60% is still not very high. So what would 0:03:27.850 --> 0:03:31.089 you say realistically is the re-entry rate for people like 0:03:31.089 --> 0:03:34.720 what should I be expecting after I get retrenched? On average, 0:03:34.770 --> 0:03:37.770 it takes between 3 to 6 months to find a 0:03:37.770 --> 0:03:41.690 new role in Singapore, and that depends on the industry demand. 0:03:42.009 --> 0:03:46.399 And also economic conditions, right? Things are slowly trying to 0:03:46.399 --> 0:03:51.210 get better compared to June 2023, which is 18 months ago, 0:03:51.479 --> 0:03:53.889 when you see a lot of tech firms going through layoffs, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.559 the big and the small. Skill set relevance in the 0:03:57.559 --> 0:03:59.169 current job market is also critical. 0:03:59.610 --> 0:04:03.830 The next will be seniority. Senior roles could take even 0:04:03.830 --> 0:04:07.270 longer than 6 months. Right. OK, so the older you get, 0:04:07.279 --> 0:04:10.520 the harder it is to re-entry. Not necessarily by age. 0:04:10.699 --> 0:04:14.440 There are people who are pretty senior early in their career, right? 0:04:14.669 --> 0:04:19.719 Specifically the tech industry and financial services. So there are VPs. 0:04:19.774 --> 0:04:22.795 Or senior VPs who are at the age of 30 0:04:22.795 --> 0:04:27.445 plus minus. Some other factors influencing duration could be the 0:04:27.445 --> 0:04:30.924 strength of your network, right? If you stay connected to 0:04:30.924 --> 0:04:33.683 some of the strong professional networks out there, it could 0:04:33.684 --> 0:04:36.053 shorten the job search timeline. If I were to add 0:04:36.053 --> 0:04:40.363 on to this point about the re-entry rate, 60.4%, this 0:04:40.363 --> 0:04:43.204 is of course average across every age group. I think 0:04:43.204 --> 0:04:46.445 if you distill down this rate into different age groups, 0:04:46.524 --> 0:04:47.643 you'll start to see that. 0:04:48.209 --> 0:04:51.529 Maybe certain age groups reenter faster and certain age groups 0:04:51.529 --> 0:04:55.678 re-enter slower. So obviously it's different for people who are younger, 0:04:55.970 --> 0:04:59.209 maybe it's easier for them to come back into the 0:04:59.209 --> 0:05:01.769 job market also probably because what they're going to command 0:05:01.769 --> 0:05:04.488 in terms of a salary will be slightly lower. So 0:05:04.488 --> 0:05:07.609 companies that are already right sizing, they might take that 0:05:07.609 --> 0:05:10.329 cost into factor, right, labor cost, right? This is something 0:05:10.329 --> 0:05:12.890 that I personally I don't quite understand, although it is 0:05:12.890 --> 0:05:15.390 the market dynamics, right? I don't quite understand this part 0:05:15.390 --> 0:05:15.950 because 0:05:16.329 --> 0:05:18.808 Someone who has got a longer runway for a company, 0:05:18.850 --> 0:05:21.559 if you are willing to hire them first, they may 0:05:21.559 --> 0:05:24.640 not stay for very long, as compared to someone who's older, 0:05:24.850 --> 0:05:27.529 who's a lot more experienced. If you can get them 0:05:27.529 --> 0:05:30.190 on a good package, they will likely stay longer. Yeah, 0:05:30.260 --> 0:05:33.049 maybe 1015, they might go all the way until retirement 0:05:33.049 --> 0:05:35.769 for you, right? So for me, the current trend of 0:05:35.769 --> 0:05:38.799 hiring for hiring managers and what I think it should be, 0:05:38.850 --> 0:05:41.529 it doesn't quite match up in my own opinion, right? 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.829 I'm someone who values experience. So someone who's older and 0:05:44.829 --> 0:05:46.869 who's got a lot more experience and networks. And when 0:05:46.869 --> 0:05:49.230 you get older, you get more networks, those come at 0:05:49.230 --> 0:05:51.750 a price as well and surely the longevity of the 0:05:51.750 --> 0:05:54.109 tenure of work for them. I mean, I'm just speaking 0:05:54.109 --> 0:05:56.190 to all the employers out there, if you really are considering, 0:05:56.470 --> 0:05:58.500 why not think the other way as well. If everybody's 0:05:58.500 --> 0:06:00.429 going for the same fish, why not put your eyes 0:06:00.428 --> 0:06:05.190 on something else? I think job flexibility matters as well, right? Singapore. 0:06:05.265 --> 0:06:08.255 People value being in a permanent job. So being open 0:06:08.255 --> 0:06:12.575 to contract part-time or even consulting roles may be able 0:06:12.575 --> 0:06:16.135 to expedite employment. More and more companies are willing to 0:06:16.135 --> 0:06:19.575 give a year contract or 6 month contract before converting 0:06:19.575 --> 0:06:22.053 someone into a perm, which brings me to something that 0:06:22.053 --> 0:06:24.794 I actually read on Reddit. So some people were saying, OK, 0:06:24.855 --> 0:06:28.575 if you have been retrenched and you're looking for employment. 0:06:29.010 --> 0:06:31.368 Then a good start would be to look for maternity 0:06:31.369 --> 0:06:34.529 cover and then that might actually translate to a permanent 0:06:34.529 --> 0:06:36.690 job later on. I think a lot of people might 0:06:36.690 --> 0:06:39.729 be wondering, how do I then put myself in a 0:06:39.730 --> 0:06:43.369 better position to get employment after I've been retrenched because 0:06:43.690 --> 0:06:46.010 we said earlier on that there is a bit of 0:06:46.010 --> 0:06:49.250 that stigma. What are sort of like immediate steps can 0:06:49.250 --> 0:06:52.399 we take, maybe in the first month after we've been retrenched. 0:06:52.488 --> 0:06:55.130 This is a very common question we get this year, 0:06:55.339 --> 0:06:58.250 particularly in the market where it's quite volatile. 0:06:58.559 --> 0:07:01.250 I think the first thing is to acknowledge the situation. 0:07:01.619 --> 0:07:04.979 For many, they have never been retrenched before. So take 0:07:04.980 --> 0:07:07.739 a few days to process the news. It's difficult, but 0:07:07.738 --> 0:07:13.220 not uncommon experience. Focus on the fact that retrenchment often 0:07:13.220 --> 0:07:16.940 reflects business decision, not personal failure. I think the mindset 0:07:16.940 --> 0:07:21.179 is very important. The next is refresh your resume, look 0:07:21.179 --> 0:07:24.220 at LinkedIn profile, look at updating your LinkedIn profile, your 0:07:24.220 --> 0:07:24.940 cover letter. 0:07:25.390 --> 0:07:29.670 That is critical because to some and to many, they 0:07:29.670 --> 0:07:32.429 have not done any work on their resume. They could 0:07:32.429 --> 0:07:35.070 be in the company for 1015 years, right? They don't 0:07:35.070 --> 0:07:38.029 know where to begin. So search for professional help. There's 0:07:38.029 --> 0:07:40.429 a lot of tools out there that can help individuals 0:07:40.429 --> 0:07:44.390 with their resume. Also from my own experiences, this year 0:07:44.390 --> 0:07:47.250 I had 5 friends who lost their jobs, 5 friends, 0:07:47.309 --> 0:07:48.910 and the thing is, they know what I'm doing right, 0:07:49.029 --> 0:07:50.950 career counseling, and they still come to me and they 0:07:50.950 --> 0:07:52.899 tell me like, I just want to let you know 0:07:53.109 --> 0:07:54.260 that I've just been let go. 0:07:54.609 --> 0:07:57.700 And I wish to keep this private. Yeah, yeah, but 0:07:57.700 --> 0:07:59.220 a lot of them because like what Sean was saying, right, 0:07:59.299 --> 0:08:02.059 it's like there's a shame shame, yeah, taboo, it's like 0:08:02.059 --> 0:08:04.049 you don't want people to know that you've been let go, 0:08:04.700 --> 0:08:06.059 but I feel like this is the time to tell 0:08:06.059 --> 0:08:08.010 people that, hey, I'm going to look out for opportunities. 0:08:08.459 --> 0:08:10.519 I'm available now and this is my value add, this 0:08:10.519 --> 0:08:12.980 is my skill set. Help me. Tell me, where can 0:08:12.980 --> 0:08:13.359 I go? 0:08:13.829 --> 0:08:16.339 Someone that you know that's looking for work. This is 0:08:16.339 --> 0:08:18.579 part of the acknowledgement process. At least now you have 0:08:18.579 --> 0:08:20.829 more sources to help you to hunt in that sense. 0:08:20.940 --> 0:08:22.820 And it's not just the hunting part, right? It's also 0:08:22.820 --> 0:08:24.980 the support that you get from people knowing that there 0:08:24.980 --> 0:08:27.230 are 5 people out there who you trust and who 0:08:27.230 --> 0:08:29.690 also knows about you and willing to back you up 0:08:29.690 --> 0:08:31.779 and support you a little bit more. I think it 0:08:31.779 --> 0:08:34.250 just makes you feel like you're not alone in the journey. 0:08:34.450 --> 0:08:36.419 Also at the same time, it may not only be 0:08:36.419 --> 0:08:39.459 shame that they feel, it could be that it's hard 0:08:39.460 --> 0:08:40.989 to actually handle when 0:08:41.359 --> 0:08:44.409 You're telling people about something that's not so good that 0:08:44.409 --> 0:08:46.739 has happened in your life and then people go, oh, 0:08:46.849 --> 0:08:49.689 I am so sorry. Are you OK? And then suddenly 0:08:49.690 --> 0:08:51.450 you have to hold space for them, right? And then 0:08:51.450 --> 0:08:53.419 you have to explain to them that actually I'm OK. 0:08:53.789 --> 0:08:56.609 I am taking steps and when you have to explain 0:08:56.609 --> 0:09:00.968 to the 20th person and to make them feel OK 0:09:00.969 --> 0:09:02.329 that you are not suffering. 0:09:02.570 --> 0:09:04.679 It's actually quite tiring. So maybe some of them would 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.239 rather just go, you know, I don't want to have 0:09:06.239 --> 0:09:10.059 to deal with someone else's emotions. I am OK and 0:09:10.059 --> 0:09:14.319 I would like to deal with my emotions myself. Having 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.690 been in the recruitment industry for almost 2 decades right now, 0:09:17.919 --> 0:09:21.359 I think the turning point is truly during COVID times, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:23.840 because a lot of people's jobs are being affected. 0:09:24.570 --> 0:09:26.909 Then you see a lot of people posting, people who 0:09:26.909 --> 0:09:30.209 are affected posting on LinkedIn, and to say, hey, I've 0:09:30.210 --> 0:09:33.400 been made redundant, I've been retrenched. They are very open 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.108 in sharing. It's not being shameful of being retrenched, it's 0:09:37.109 --> 0:09:40.729 just a business decision. So when more of those voices 0:09:40.729 --> 0:09:44.450 are public, people are more willing to share those information 0:09:44.450 --> 0:09:47.319 and that in turn helped them to get more opportunity 0:09:47.729 --> 0:09:49.209 because they should reach out to their former. 0:09:49.315 --> 0:09:52.664 Colleagues, their former bosses, even friends and family to get 0:09:52.664 --> 0:09:54.984 the work out there. So even in Singapore right now 0:09:54.984 --> 0:09:56.784 when we are seeing a lot of news of retrenchments 0:09:56.784 --> 0:09:58.655 and a lot of fears, it's actually a good thing 0:09:59.424 --> 0:10:02.465 because employers are more receptive. There's this image that, OK, 0:10:02.544 --> 0:10:04.604 there's a lot of talent out there, right? And then 0:10:04.604 --> 0:10:06.854 whether you're retrenched or not, I can hire good people. 0:10:07.224 --> 0:10:10.234 The challenge here comes with if today the market is tight, 0:10:10.465 --> 0:10:12.544 if the labor market is very tight, there's very low 0:10:12.544 --> 0:10:14.224 unemployment and nobody is retrenching. 0:10:14.489 --> 0:10:17.280 And you got that unemployed person looking for a job, 0:10:17.340 --> 0:10:18.750 and the unemployed person has been looking for a job 0:10:18.750 --> 0:10:20.989 for more than 6 months. That is a hard one. 0:10:21.070 --> 0:10:22.309 That's what I would call like a lemon. 0:10:22.530 --> 0:10:24.869 And employers will be wondering, are you a lemon? Oh, OK. 0:10:25.159 --> 0:10:27.869 Like nobody wants you, right? Because everybody's scrambling for people, 0:10:27.880 --> 0:10:29.320 but yet you cannot find a job for 6 months. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.760 What's wrong with you? Some employers have the mindset. Yeah, 0:10:31.919 --> 0:10:33.640 so that's of course in a tight labor market, but 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.479 right now, I think if today someone is retrenched, it's 0:10:36.479 --> 0:10:39.119 a really good opportunity to set your sights far. OK, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.439 let's say in that scenario, 6 months later, even up 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.429 to a year, you've done everything you can, right? 0:10:45.849 --> 0:10:50.280 And still you haven't found any employment. Now what? Are 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.189 you really a lemon or should you rethink about how 0:10:54.190 --> 0:10:57.880 you are planning things? I think back to my earlier point, 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.400 treat the job search like a project, set daily and 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.770 weekly goals. Say for example, 5 applications per day, 2 0:11:05.770 --> 0:11:09.000 networking calls, reach out to people, connect with people on LinkedIn. 0:11:09.489 --> 0:11:12.840 Celebrate small wins, because being out of a job for 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.190 6 months, applying for jobs, going for interviews and not 0:11:16.190 --> 0:11:19.489 getting a job offer is very demoralizing. So I think 0:11:19.489 --> 0:11:22.210 the mindset is critical and then create structure in the day. 0:11:22.489 --> 0:11:26.869 For example, allocate time for job search, networking, upskilling, and 0:11:26.869 --> 0:11:32.150 then avoid burnout, balance job hunting with exercise, with hobbies. 0:11:32.369 --> 0:11:34.570 Still go for a short holiday. Don't take that away 0:11:34.570 --> 0:11:37.390 from your life. I think the difficulty for many 0:11:37.664 --> 0:11:40.464 How to fill up that void. So holidays is one, 0:11:40.625 --> 0:11:42.704 of course, right. Some people have to do caregiving, so 0:11:42.705 --> 0:11:45.505 that's another reason as well. But what I would advocate 0:11:45.505 --> 0:11:48.155 for people is maybe go and take some training. Use 0:11:48.155 --> 0:11:50.744 it as an opportunity to upskill yourself because it's so 0:11:50.744 --> 0:11:52.265 good for an employer to say, what have you been 0:11:52.265 --> 0:11:54.205 doing for the last one year, and then you say, 0:11:54.265 --> 0:11:56.625 I've been learning certain things. And you have to realize 0:11:56.625 --> 0:11:59.424 that when we go for training, it's not just acquisition 0:11:59.424 --> 0:12:03.565 of knowledge, we are also acquiring networks. We are having classmates, 0:12:03.645 --> 0:12:05.455 they have their own networks, they're meeting people. 0:12:05.940 --> 0:12:08.140 When you make effort to go out for training, you're 0:12:08.140 --> 0:12:11.030 actually giving yourself a routine, a sense of purpose, right? 0:12:11.090 --> 0:12:13.780 It's like you're getting some pseudo career life back because 0:12:13.780 --> 0:12:15.780 you're talking about the things that will propel you, help 0:12:15.780 --> 0:12:18.419 you to develop yourself into the future. Don't be what 0:12:18.419 --> 0:12:21.099 we call the stay at home person who's just applying 0:12:21.099 --> 0:12:23.969 for jobs. And just clicking with behind the screen, yeah. 0:12:24.155 --> 0:12:26.715 Clicking refresh on your email box. Yes, because like what 0:12:26.715 --> 0:12:29.224 Sean said, right, it can get very demoralizing. I've seen 0:12:29.224 --> 0:12:33.015 people who took up courses and did a career switch 0:12:33.015 --> 0:12:35.815 as well during this time. They took 3 to 6 months, 0:12:35.945 --> 0:12:39.565 take up a course, go for interviews, yes and no, 0:12:39.645 --> 0:12:43.965 it has to be something still slightly relevant. So for example, 0:12:44.265 --> 0:12:47.544 like a retail operations manager could pivot into supply chain 0:12:47.544 --> 0:12:50.304 roles right within the industry. I think what Sean pointed 0:12:50.304 --> 0:12:51.223 out is very important. 0:12:51.570 --> 0:12:54.400 A conversion is not something that is like an absolute 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.890 different switch. That kind of big jump, right? It's quite 0:12:56.890 --> 0:12:59.809 unrealistic actually. Employers will not be willing to hire you 0:12:59.809 --> 0:13:02.559 outright for that limited training experience you have, but if 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.080 you can identify some transferables between what you have and 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.599 what you newly acquired as a knowledge to move into 0:13:07.599 --> 0:13:10.690 a Jason role or nearby role, I think that it's 0:13:10.690 --> 0:13:11.799 a beautiful match that. 0:13:11.929 --> 0:13:17.159 be made. So if potential employers quiz you, let's say 0:13:17.159 --> 0:13:20.200 they go, what happened during your retrenchment or you've been 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.760 retrenched and you haven't had a job in like 4 months. 0:13:24.119 --> 0:13:27.859 How would you advise somebody who's going through that to 0:13:27.859 --> 0:13:31.590 respond in an interview? My best advice is be authentic. 0:13:32.289 --> 0:13:34.979 Come up with something that you have not done before, right? 0:13:35.119 --> 0:13:38.359 I get this question a lot. Exactly, right? It's like, Sean, 0:13:38.539 --> 0:13:41.320 what should I say during these 4 months. So my 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.760 question back to them is, what have you actually done 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.359 during these 4 or 6 months? Have you been out 0:13:46.359 --> 0:13:49.140 there networking? Have you been taking a sabbatical? Take a break. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.559 If you haven't taken a break for 15 years or 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:52.520 20 years working. 0:13:52.940 --> 0:13:56.299 Then taking 2 to 3 months break is fair, right? 0:13:56.380 --> 0:13:59.020 So if you're authentic and you're able to say that 0:13:59.020 --> 0:14:02.820 confidently during interviews, then the interviewer on the other side 0:14:02.820 --> 0:14:06.829 of the table will believe you. I don't suggest lying, 0:14:07.020 --> 0:14:10.339 trying to lie during an interview because people can sense it. 0:14:10.500 --> 0:14:12.510 I think being honest and authentic would be a great 0:14:12.510 --> 0:14:14.979 way to start, but sometimes if today the retrenchment is 0:14:14.979 --> 0:14:15.500 not known. 0:14:15.929 --> 0:14:18.369 And employers ask, what made you leave your last job? 0:14:18.489 --> 0:14:20.109 Why did you leave your last job? Then you are 0:14:20.109 --> 0:14:22.650 in a position that you say or do you not say, right? 0:14:22.789 --> 0:14:24.669 So in those situations, I always, yeah, I will just 0:14:24.669 --> 0:14:26.880 tell them that you can disclose what you feel comfortable with. 0:14:27.229 --> 0:14:30.299 But at the same time, try to divert the conversation 0:14:30.299 --> 0:14:33.659 towards more of yourself and the job and the prospective job. So. 0:14:34.140 --> 0:14:36.289 you're not lying, but you're just saying that yeah, the 0:14:36.289 --> 0:14:38.809 company was having some difficulties as far as restructuring, I 0:14:38.809 --> 0:14:40.570 was given a package, I thought it was the right 0:14:40.570 --> 0:14:43.929 time to go. More importantly, there's this other opportunity that 0:14:43.929 --> 0:14:45.690 your company has for me, and I can see how 0:14:45.690 --> 0:14:48.210 these things that you are doing, you're offering is such 0:14:48.210 --> 0:14:50.409 a good fit for me. I'm really interested to join. 0:14:50.570 --> 0:14:52.320 It's almost like making the employer feel like 0:14:52.609 --> 0:14:55.429 You have quit your company to join them. Yeah, you 0:14:55.429 --> 0:14:58.030 just mention the word. Yes, don't focus on that. That's 0:14:58.030 --> 0:15:00.229 what you're saying. Yeah, exactly, because employers don't want to 0:15:00.229 --> 0:15:03.159 see a potential higher to be carrying baggage from the past. 0:15:03.349 --> 0:15:04.989 More importantly, they want to know what can you do 0:15:04.989 --> 0:15:07.190 for me? Can you really value add my business? Can 0:15:07.190 --> 0:15:09.590 you contribute? Can you do something? Yeah, so I think 0:15:09.590 --> 0:15:10.539 we need to always 0:15:10.705 --> 0:15:14.414 Emphasize that fit and why you're interested in this new company. 0:15:14.885 --> 0:15:18.715 It's very common these days where retrenchment or right sizing 0:15:18.715 --> 0:15:22.284 exercise is due to a business decision, which is a 0:15:22.284 --> 0:15:25.565 shutdown of a business unit, a region not doing well, 0:15:25.684 --> 0:15:28.684 that's why they are removing a certain layer within the organization. 0:15:29.099 --> 0:15:31.500 Touch and go, right? Don't focus too much on why 0:15:31.500 --> 0:15:33.659 you are being laid off or why you're the selected one. 0:15:34.140 --> 0:15:36.900 Focus on what's there and why you're interested in the 0:15:36.900 --> 0:15:39.460 role and why you're there at the interview. Yeah, on 0:15:39.460 --> 0:15:41.969 that point, right, if today an employee really wants to know, really, 0:15:42.020 --> 0:15:43.659 are you saying the right things, then that's where your 0:15:43.659 --> 0:15:46.700 referees come in, your character referees that you provide, they 0:15:46.700 --> 0:15:49.219 will be the ones to vouch for your performance. So 0:15:49.219 --> 0:15:51.809 if you could get a referee that's from your past job, right, 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:53.299 then it sends a signal that 0:15:53.650 --> 0:15:56.359 Actually, you were not like a bad hire. Your last 0:15:56.359 --> 0:15:58.409 employer was willing to vouch for you and during COVID, 0:15:58.450 --> 0:16:00.609 we saw a lot of that, right? Many exactly. Be 0:16:00.609 --> 0:16:04.080 daring enough to ask for introductions. Oh yeah, that's true, 0:16:04.570 --> 0:16:07.969 for a job, you would be 1 in 1000, 1 0:16:07.969 --> 0:16:10.989 in 500, right? So how can your CV stand out? 0:16:11.119 --> 0:16:13.719 It's true recommendation, through references. 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.640 Well, I mean, there are so many valuable tips and 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.570 insights that we've talked about today and I hope that 0:16:20.799 --> 0:16:24.390 whoever is listening to this podcast and feeling a bit down, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.119 maybe they would go, hey, you know what, OK, today 0:16:27.119 --> 0:16:28.909 is the day I'm going to try and do something, 0:16:29.039 --> 0:16:31.599 even if it's just to take that 3 months sabbatical, 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.880 like you say, give yourself a break, it's OK. Give 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.400 yourself permission to have a break. So thank you so much, Sean, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.159 for coming on our podcast today. We really enjoyed having 0:16:39.159 --> 0:16:41.309 you here. Thank you so much for having me here, 0:16:41.479 --> 0:16:42.440 really enjoy my time. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.289 Hi, it's our Ask Me Anything segment. So let's get 0:16:50.289 --> 0:16:54.210 straight into it. Today's one is sent in by Andy. 0:16:54.369 --> 0:16:58.640 Andy is in an awkward social situation with a colleague. 0:16:59.049 --> 0:17:01.609 See what happened is, OK, I'll read this out. 0:17:02.020 --> 0:17:05.708 And he says, I didn't invite a colleague to my wedding, 0:17:05.819 --> 0:17:09.909 but I did invite some others. He is offended and 0:17:09.910 --> 0:17:13.270 I'm worried that this will affect our working relationship because 0:17:13.270 --> 0:17:17.020 he also blocked me on social media. What should I do? 0:17:17.589 --> 0:17:19.750 I know some people might be thinking, eh, it's a 0:17:19.750 --> 0:17:24.270 straightforward one, right? Don't care what this colleague thinks, it's 0:17:24.270 --> 0:17:27.379 your wedding, Andy, and you decide who makes the list 0:17:27.380 --> 0:17:27.909 or not. 0:17:28.239 --> 0:17:30.958 But I don't think Andy is regretting his decision here. 0:17:31.088 --> 0:17:33.688 The problem is, he thinks it's going to affect the 0:17:33.688 --> 0:17:36.609 working relationship and likely so because you know, sounds like 0:17:36.609 --> 0:17:39.048 this colleague is not very mature in the way that 0:17:39.048 --> 0:17:39.928 he's dealing with it. 0:17:40.260 --> 0:17:44.270 So Gerald, what do you think Andy should do? Wow, 0:17:44.609 --> 0:17:46.909 it's like something that all of us worry about whether 0:17:46.910 --> 0:17:49.670 we are going for like an important event like a wedding, 0:17:49.709 --> 0:17:52.469 who should we invite? We get limited tables. So we 0:17:52.469 --> 0:17:55.270 really have to invite the right people and unfortunately, some 0:17:55.270 --> 0:17:58.819 people must be left out. So unfortunately, Andy, I think 0:17:58.819 --> 0:18:01.149 if your colleague blocked you on social media for this reason. 0:18:01.239 --> 0:18:03.790 Then maybe your colleague really felt really left out and 0:18:03.790 --> 0:18:06.510 sidelined by you. So I think maybe you want to 0:18:06.510 --> 0:18:09.750 consider this whether you feel that it's reasonable for your 0:18:09.750 --> 0:18:11.869 colleague to respond to you in this way, right? What 0:18:11.869 --> 0:18:14.389 I mean by reasonable is if today this is someone 0:18:14.390 --> 0:18:16.670 who has been lunching with you, who has been talking 0:18:16.670 --> 0:18:19.109 to you, you've been going out a lot, even after 0:18:19.109 --> 0:18:21.790 work drinks, you chat a lot, you work very closely 0:18:21.790 --> 0:18:22.199 and then 0:18:22.410 --> 0:18:24.109 To find out that this person is not in that 0:18:24.109 --> 0:18:27.879 list for the wedding, OK, OK, then it means something, right? 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.640 So first, Andy, you got to consider whether were you 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.359 sending wrong signals? Yeah, yeah, correct. I mean, you can 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.679 imagine if someone that's very close to you didn't invite 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.629 you for something important, but they invited somebody that seemingly 0:18:39.630 --> 0:18:42.079 not so close to you at the workplace, then you'll 0:18:42.079 --> 0:18:43.438 be asking a lot of questions like why am I 0:18:43.439 --> 0:18:45.959 not invited. So I think Andy, the colleagues action to 0:18:45.959 --> 0:18:47.670 block you on social media could be their own way 0:18:47.670 --> 0:18:48.239 to cope with that. 0:18:48.354 --> 0:18:50.905 Disappointment and it's not something you can control. Yeah, you 0:18:50.905 --> 0:18:52.704 cannot be like the social media police. Why do you 0:18:52.704 --> 0:18:54.875 block me, you know, it's going to make things really awkward. 0:18:55.104 --> 0:18:57.385 So that's not a very realistic thing confronting them. It's 0:18:57.385 --> 0:18:59.375 not a realistic thing, and it will even seem petty 0:18:59.375 --> 0:19:01.755 to do so. So I think, go about your work 0:19:01.755 --> 0:19:04.104 with this colleague and then along the way, if you 0:19:04.104 --> 0:19:06.744 observe certain behaviors or changes in terms of how you're 0:19:06.744 --> 0:19:08.833 working together, maybe you want to have the clear the 0:19:08.834 --> 0:19:11.305 air conversation to try to find out like what happened. 0:19:11.405 --> 0:19:13.385 I notice certain things are different, the way we interact 0:19:13.385 --> 0:19:14.214 with each other is different. 0:19:14.550 --> 0:19:17.229 Maybe you'll have a chat about it. Yeah. Then if 0:19:17.229 --> 0:19:19.810