Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 2: Hi, this is Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast.
Speaker 2: We've all been seeing news of layoffs recently and that's
Speaker 2: always not something very nice to hear. In a previous
Speaker 2: episode where we discussed the signs before a company is
Speaker 2: headed for a retrenchment exercise, actually I was shocked to
Speaker 2: learn that there are organizations that retrench their staff at
Speaker 2: the end or even start of the year to avoid
Speaker 2: giving up bonuses. Yes, if unfortunately you're one of them.
Speaker 2: Or you've been retrenched yourself not too long ago, and
Speaker 2: you're now looking for employment, you want to stay on
Speaker 2: this podcast. Today we'll be talking about how to find
Speaker 2: your next job after you have been retrenched. With us
Speaker 2: in the studio today to give us some career advice
Speaker 2: is Sean Tong. He's the head of Asia for HR
Speaker 2: recruitment firm, Fraser Jones. Sean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks
Speaker 2: for having me here. Sean, in your line of work,
Speaker 2: do companies tend to view a
Speaker 2: Job applicant negatively if they've been retrenched before? I would
Speaker 2: say yes and no. They still look at the candidate
Speaker 2: past employment history. So say if a candidate has about
Speaker 2: 10 years of experience, and the news is made public,
Speaker 2: for example, Company A going through retrenchment this year due
Speaker 2: to right sizing exercise. I mean, this is public news
Speaker 2: and the candidate could explain himself or her.
Speaker 2: during the interview and that's perfectly all right. So what
Speaker 2: are some things that you would maybe advise companies when they,
Speaker 2: let's say have an applicant on the table, they're looking
Speaker 2: at their resume and it says that they have been retrenched.
Speaker 2: What would you advise companies to look for when they're
Speaker 2: looking at such an applicant? I think they should look
Speaker 2: beyond the current reason why they have been retrenched. Look
Speaker 2: at the skill sets they could bring on board and
Speaker 2: value add to the organization.
Speaker 2: And more importantly is the candidate himself or herself, meeting
Speaker 2: them in person. Do they fit the culture of the
Speaker 2: organization beyond the paper itself, but that said, it's very
Speaker 2: difficult to take away that unconscious biasedness because we all
Speaker 2: know that Singapore market is very competitive, both locals or expats.
Speaker 2: The challenge is because of the competition.
Speaker 2: People who are without a job being immediately available, always
Speaker 2: find it harder to get an interview opportunity as compared
Speaker 2: to someone who is currently in the job. This is
Speaker 2: just human behavior, hiring manager behavior. So Sean, what you're
Speaker 2: saying is someone who is already
Speaker 2: Working who's still in a job will be seen more
Speaker 2: positively by the next employer as compared to someone who's
Speaker 2: out of a job, even though the person is immediately
Speaker 2: available for work. That's correct. I think the only difference
Speaker 2: is if companies are looking for someone urgently to fill
Speaker 2: the position.
Speaker 2: Then that's when the pros and cons, you know, being
Speaker 2: immediately available is an advantage. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people would be curious to know if today I'm being retrenched,
Speaker 2: what are my odds in being able to quickly get
Speaker 2: a job? A quick stat that I just pulled out,
Speaker 2: so according to the manpower Ministry labor stats.
Speaker 2: They say that in Q2 last year, 2024, the re-entry
Speaker 2: rate was 55%. Then Q3 it went up to 60.4%.
Speaker 2: That's the resident rate of reentry to the workforce within
Speaker 2: six months of retrenchment.
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I mean it's an improvement,
Speaker 2: but 60% is still not very high. So what would
Speaker 2: you say realistically is the re-entry rate for people like
Speaker 2: what should I be expecting after I get retrenched? On average,
Speaker 2: it takes between 3 to 6 months to find a
Speaker 2: new role in Singapore, and that depends on the industry demand.
Speaker 2: And also economic conditions, right? Things are slowly trying to
Speaker 2: get better compared to June 2023, which is 18 months ago,
Speaker 2: when you see a lot of tech firms going through layoffs,
Speaker 2: the big and the small. Skill set relevance in the
Speaker 2: current job market is also critical.
Speaker 2: The next will be seniority. Senior roles could take even
Speaker 2: longer than 6 months. Right. OK, so the older you get,
Speaker 2: the harder it is to re-entry. Not necessarily by age.
Speaker 2: There are people who are pretty senior early in their career, right?
Speaker 2: Specifically the tech industry and financial services. So there are VPs.
Speaker 2: Or senior VPs who are at the age of 30
Speaker 2: plus minus. Some other factors influencing duration could be the
Speaker 2: strength of your network, right? If you stay connected to
Speaker 2: some of the strong professional networks out there, it could
Speaker 2: shorten the job search timeline. If I were to add
Speaker 2: on to this point about the re-entry rate, 60.4%, this
Speaker 2: is of course average across every age group. I think
Speaker 2: if you distill down this rate into different age groups,
Speaker 2: you'll start to see that.
Speaker 2: Maybe certain age groups reenter faster and certain age groups
Speaker 2: re-enter slower. So obviously it's different for people who are younger,
Speaker 2: maybe it's easier for them to come back into the
Speaker 2: job market also probably because what they're going to command
Speaker 2: in terms of a salary will be slightly lower. So
Speaker 2: companies that are already right sizing, they might take that
Speaker 2: cost into factor, right, labor cost, right? This is something
Speaker 2: that I personally I don't quite understand, although it is
Speaker 2: the market dynamics, right? I don't quite understand this part
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 2: Someone who has got a longer runway for a company,
Speaker 2: if you are willing to hire them first, they may
Speaker 2: not stay for very long, as compared to someone who's older,
Speaker 2: who's a lot more experienced. If you can get them
Speaker 2: on a good package, they will likely stay longer. Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe 1015, they might go all the way until retirement
Speaker 2: for you, right? So for me, the current trend of
Speaker 2: hiring for hiring managers and what I think it should be,
Speaker 2: it doesn't quite match up in my own opinion, right?
Speaker 2: I'm someone who values experience. So someone who's older and
Speaker 2: who's got a lot more experience and networks. And when
Speaker 2: you get older, you get more networks, those come at
Speaker 2: a price as well and surely the longevity of the
Speaker 2: tenure of work for them. I mean, I'm just speaking
Speaker 2: to all the employers out there, if you really are considering,
Speaker 2: why not think the other way as well. If everybody's
Speaker 2: going for the same fish, why not put your eyes
Speaker 2: on something else? I think job flexibility matters as well, right? Singapore.
Speaker 2: People value being in a permanent job. So being open
Speaker 2: to contract part-time or even consulting roles may be able
Speaker 2: to expedite employment. More and more companies are willing to
Speaker 2: give a year contract or 6 month contract before converting
Speaker 2: someone into a perm, which brings me to something that
Speaker 2: I actually read on Reddit. So some people were saying, OK,
Speaker 2: if you have been retrenched and you're looking for employment.
Speaker 2: Then a good start would be to look for maternity
Speaker 2: cover and then that might actually translate to a permanent
Speaker 2: job later on. I think a lot of people might
Speaker 2: be wondering, how do I then put myself in a
Speaker 2: better position to get employment after I've been retrenched because
Speaker 2: we said earlier on that there is a bit of
Speaker 2: that stigma. What are sort of like immediate steps can
Speaker 2: we take, maybe in the first month after we've been retrenched.
Speaker 2: This is a very common question we get this year,
Speaker 2: particularly in the market where it's quite volatile.
Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to acknowledge the situation.
Speaker 2: For many, they have never been retrenched before. So take
Speaker 2: a few days to process the news. It's difficult, but
Speaker 2: not uncommon experience. Focus on the fact that retrenchment often
Speaker 2: reflects business decision, not personal failure. I think the mindset
Speaker 2: is very important. The next is refresh your resume, look
Speaker 2: at LinkedIn profile, look at updating your LinkedIn profile, your
Speaker 2: cover letter.
Speaker 2: That is critical because to some and to many, they
Speaker 2: have not done any work on their resume. They could
Speaker 2: be in the company for 1015 years, right? They don't
Speaker 2: know where to begin. So search for professional help. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of tools out there that can help individuals
Speaker 2: with their resume. Also from my own experiences, this year
Speaker 2: I had 5 friends who lost their jobs, 5 friends,
Speaker 2: and the thing is, they know what I'm doing right,
Speaker 2: career counseling, and they still come to me and they
Speaker 2: tell me like, I just want to let you know
Speaker 2: that I've just been let go.
Speaker 2: And I wish to keep this private. Yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 2: a lot of them because like what Sean was saying, right,
Speaker 2: it's like there's a shame shame, yeah, taboo, it's like
Speaker 2: you don't want people to know that you've been let go,
Speaker 2: but I feel like this is the time to tell
Speaker 2: people that, hey, I'm going to look out for opportunities.
Speaker 2: I'm available now and this is my value add, this
Speaker 2: is my skill set. Help me. Tell me, where can
Speaker 2: I go?
Speaker 2: Someone that you know that's looking for work. This is
Speaker 2: part of the acknowledgement process. At least now you have
Speaker 2: more sources to help you to hunt in that sense.
Speaker 2: And it's not just the hunting part, right? It's also
Speaker 2: the support that you get from people knowing that there
Speaker 2: are 5 people out there who you trust and who
Speaker 2: also knows about you and willing to back you up
Speaker 2: and support you a little bit more. I think it
Speaker 2: just makes you feel like you're not alone in the journey.
Speaker 2: Also at the same time, it may not only be
Speaker 2: shame that they feel, it could be that it's hard
Speaker 2: to actually handle when
Speaker 2: You're telling people about something that's not so good that
Speaker 2: has happened in your life and then people go, oh,
Speaker 2: I am so sorry. Are you OK? And then suddenly
Speaker 2: you have to hold space for them, right? And then
Speaker 2: you have to explain to them that actually I'm OK.
Speaker 2: I am taking steps and when you have to explain
Speaker 2: to the 20th person and to make them feel OK
Speaker 2: that you are not suffering.
Speaker 2: It's actually quite tiring. So maybe some of them would
Speaker 2: rather just go, you know, I don't want to have
Speaker 2: to deal with someone else's emotions. I am OK and
Speaker 2: I would like to deal with my emotions myself. Having
Speaker 2: been in the recruitment industry for almost 2 decades right now,
Speaker 2: I think the turning point is truly during COVID times,
Speaker 2: because a lot of people's jobs are being affected.
Speaker 2: Then you see a lot of people posting, people who
Speaker 2: are affected posting on LinkedIn, and to say, hey, I've
Speaker 2: been made redundant, I've been retrenched. They are very open
Speaker 2: in sharing. It's not being shameful of being retrenched, it's
Speaker 2: just a business decision. So when more of those voices
Speaker 2: are public, people are more willing to share those information
Speaker 2: and that in turn helped them to get more opportunity
Speaker 2: because they should reach out to their former.
Speaker 2: Colleagues, their former bosses, even friends and family to get
Speaker 2: the work out there. So even in Singapore right now
Speaker 2: when we are seeing a lot of news of retrenchments
Speaker 2: and a lot of fears, it's actually a good thing
Speaker 2: because employers are more receptive. There's this image that, OK,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of talent out there, right? And then
Speaker 2: whether you're retrenched or not, I can hire good people.
Speaker 2: The challenge here comes with if today the market is tight,
Speaker 2: if the labor market is very tight, there's very low
Speaker 2: unemployment and nobody is retrenching.
Speaker 2: And you got that unemployed person looking for a job,
Speaker 2: and the unemployed person has been looking for a job
Speaker 2: for more than 6 months. That is a hard one.
Speaker 2: That's what I would call like a lemon.
Speaker 2: And employers will be wondering, are you a lemon? Oh, OK.
Speaker 2: Like nobody wants you, right? Because everybody's scrambling for people,
Speaker 2: but yet you cannot find a job for 6 months.
Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? Some employers have the mindset. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's of course in a tight labor market, but
Speaker 2: right now, I think if today someone is retrenched, it's
Speaker 2: a really good opportunity to set your sights far. OK,
Speaker 2: let's say in that scenario, 6 months later, even up
Speaker 2: to a year, you've done everything you can, right?
Speaker 2: And still you haven't found any employment. Now what? Are
Speaker 2: you really a lemon or should you rethink about how
Speaker 2: you are planning things? I think back to my earlier point,
Speaker 2: treat the job search like a project, set daily and
Speaker 2: weekly goals. Say for example, 5 applications per day, 2
Speaker 2: networking calls, reach out to people, connect with people on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2: Celebrate small wins, because being out of a job for
Speaker 2: 6 months, applying for jobs, going for interviews and not
Speaker 2: getting a job offer is very demoralizing. So I think
Speaker 2: the mindset is critical and then create structure in the day.
Speaker 2: For example, allocate time for job search, networking, upskilling, and
Speaker 2: then avoid burnout, balance job hunting with exercise, with hobbies.
Speaker 2: Still go for a short holiday. Don't take that away
Speaker 2: from your life. I think the difficulty for many
Speaker 2: How to fill up that void. So holidays is one,
Speaker 2: of course, right. Some people have to do caregiving, so
Speaker 2: that's another reason as well. But what I would advocate
Speaker 2: for people is maybe go and take some training. Use
Speaker 2: it as an opportunity to upskill yourself because it's so
Speaker 2: good for an employer to say, what have you been
Speaker 2: doing for the last one year, and then you say,
Speaker 2: I've been learning certain things. And you have to realize
Speaker 2: that when we go for training, it's not just acquisition
Speaker 2: of knowledge, we are also acquiring networks. We are having classmates,
Speaker 2: they have their own networks, they're meeting people.
Speaker 2: When you make effort to go out for training, you're
Speaker 2: actually giving yourself a routine, a sense of purpose, right?
Speaker 2: It's like you're getting some pseudo career life back because
Speaker 2: you're talking about the things that will propel you, help
Speaker 2: you to develop yourself into the future. Don't be what
Speaker 2: we call the stay at home person who's just applying
Speaker 2: for jobs. And just clicking with behind the screen, yeah.
Speaker 2: Clicking refresh on your email box. Yes, because like what
Speaker 2: Sean said, right, it can get very demoralizing. I've seen
Speaker 2: people who took up courses and did a career switch
Speaker 2: as well during this time. They took 3 to 6 months,
Speaker 2: take up a course, go for interviews, yes and no,
Speaker 2: it has to be something still slightly relevant. So for example,
Speaker 2: like a retail operations manager could pivot into supply chain
Speaker 2: roles right within the industry. I think what Sean pointed
Speaker 2: out is very important.
Speaker 2: A conversion is not something that is like an absolute
Speaker 2: different switch. That kind of big jump, right? It's quite
Speaker 2: unrealistic actually. Employers will not be willing to hire you
Speaker 2: outright for that limited training experience you have, but if
Speaker 2: you can identify some transferables between what you have and
Speaker 2: what you newly acquired as a knowledge to move into
Speaker 2: a Jason role or nearby role, I think that it's
Speaker 2: a beautiful match that.
Speaker 2: be made. So if potential employers quiz you, let's say
Speaker 2: they go, what happened during your retrenchment or you've been
Speaker 2: retrenched and you haven't had a job in like 4 months.
Speaker 2: How would you advise somebody who's going through that to
Speaker 2: respond in an interview? My best advice is be authentic.
Speaker 2: Come up with something that you have not done before, right?
Speaker 2: I get this question a lot. Exactly, right? It's like, Sean,
Speaker 2: what should I say during these 4 months. So my
Speaker 2: question back to them is, what have you actually done
Speaker 2: during these 4 or 6 months? Have you been out
Speaker 2: there networking? Have you been taking a sabbatical? Take a break.
Speaker 2: If you haven't taken a break for 15 years or
Speaker 2: 20 years working.
Speaker 2: Then taking 2 to 3 months break is fair, right?
Speaker 2: So if you're authentic and you're able to say that
Speaker 2: confidently during interviews, then the interviewer on the other side
Speaker 2: of the table will believe you. I don't suggest lying,
Speaker 2: trying to lie during an interview because people can sense it.
Speaker 2: I think being honest and authentic would be a great
Speaker 2: way to start, but sometimes if today the retrenchment is
Speaker 2: not known.
Speaker 2: And employers ask, what made you leave your last job?
Speaker 2: Why did you leave your last job? Then you are
Speaker 2: in a position that you say or do you not say, right?
Speaker 2: So in those situations, I always, yeah, I will just
Speaker 2: tell them that you can disclose what you feel comfortable with.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, try to divert the conversation
Speaker 2: towards more of yourself and the job and the prospective job. So.
Speaker 2: you're not lying, but you're just saying that yeah, the
Speaker 2: company was having some difficulties as far as restructuring, I
Speaker 2: was given a package, I thought it was the right
Speaker 2: time to go. More importantly, there's this other opportunity that
Speaker 2: your company has for me, and I can see how
Speaker 2: these things that you are doing, you're offering is such
Speaker 2: a good fit for me. I'm really interested to join.
Speaker 2: It's almost like making the employer feel like
Speaker 2: You have quit your company to join them. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: just mention the word. Yes, don't focus on that. That's
Speaker 2: what you're saying. Yeah, exactly, because employers don't want to
Speaker 2: see a potential higher to be carrying baggage from the past.
Speaker 2: More importantly, they want to know what can you do
Speaker 2: for me? Can you really value add my business? Can
Speaker 2: you contribute? Can you do something? Yeah, so I think
Speaker 2: we need to always
Speaker 2: Emphasize that fit and why you're interested in this new company.
Speaker 2: It's very common these days where retrenchment or right sizing
Speaker 2: exercise is due to a business decision, which is a
Speaker 2: shutdown of a business unit, a region not doing well,
Speaker 2: that's why they are removing a certain layer within the organization.
Speaker 2: Touch and go, right? Don't focus too much on why
Speaker 2: you are being laid off or why you're the selected one.
Speaker 2: Focus on what's there and why you're interested in the
Speaker 2: role and why you're there at the interview. Yeah, on
Speaker 2: that point, right, if today an employee really wants to know, really,
Speaker 2: are you saying the right things, then that's where your
Speaker 2: referees come in, your character referees that you provide, they
Speaker 2: will be the ones to vouch for your performance. So
Speaker 2: if you could get a referee that's from your past job, right,
Speaker 2: then it sends a signal that
Speaker 2: Actually, you were not like a bad hire. Your last
Speaker 2: employer was willing to vouch for you and during COVID,
Speaker 2: we saw a lot of that, right? Many exactly. Be
Speaker 2: daring enough to ask for introductions. Oh yeah, that's true,
Speaker 2: for a job, you would be 1 in 1000, 1
Speaker 2: in 500, right? So how can your CV stand out?
Speaker 2: It's true recommendation, through references.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there are so many valuable tips and
Speaker 2: insights that we've talked about today and I hope that
Speaker 2: whoever is listening to this podcast and feeling a bit down,
Speaker 2: maybe they would go, hey, you know what, OK, today
Speaker 2: is the day I'm going to try and do something,
Speaker 2: even if it's just to take that 3 months sabbatical,
Speaker 2: like you say, give yourself a break, it's OK. Give
Speaker 2: yourself permission to have a break. So thank you so much, Sean,
Speaker 2: for coming on our podcast today. We really enjoyed having
Speaker 2: you here. Thank you so much for having me here,
Speaker 2: really enjoy my time.
Speaker 2: Hi, it's our Ask Me Anything segment. So let's get
Speaker 2: straight into it. Today's one is sent in by Andy.
Speaker 2: Andy is in an awkward social situation with a colleague.
Speaker 2: See what happened is, OK, I'll read this out.
Speaker 2: And he says, I didn't invite a colleague to my wedding,
Speaker 2: but I did invite some others. He is offended and
Speaker 2: I'm worried that this will affect our working relationship because
Speaker 2: he also blocked me on social media. What should I do?
Speaker 2: I know some people might be thinking, eh, it's a
Speaker 2: straightforward one, right? Don't care what this colleague thinks, it's
Speaker 2: your wedding, Andy, and you decide who makes the list
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 2: But I don't think Andy is regretting his decision here.
Speaker 2: The problem is, he thinks it's going to affect the
Speaker 2: working relationship and likely so because you know, sounds like
Speaker 2: this colleague is not very mature in the way that
Speaker 2: he's dealing with it.
Speaker 2: So Gerald, what do you think Andy should do? Wow,
Speaker 2: it's like something that all of us worry about whether
Speaker 2: we are going for like an important event like a wedding,
Speaker 2: who should we invite? We get limited tables. So we
Speaker 2: really have to invite the right people and unfortunately, some
Speaker 2: people must be left out. So unfortunately, Andy, I think
Speaker 2: if your colleague blocked you on social media for this reason.
Speaker 2: Then maybe your colleague really felt really left out and
Speaker 2: sidelined by you. So I think maybe you want to
Speaker 2: consider this whether you feel that it's reasonable for your
Speaker 2: colleague to respond to you in this way, right? What
Speaker 2: I mean by reasonable is if today this is someone
Speaker 2: who has been lunching with you, who has been talking
Speaker 2: to you, you've been going out a lot, even after
Speaker 2: work drinks, you chat a lot, you work very closely
Speaker 2: and then
Speaker 2: To find out that this person is not in that
Speaker 2: list for the wedding, OK, OK, then it means something, right?
Speaker 2: So first, Andy, you got to consider whether were you
Speaker 2: sending wrong signals? Yeah, yeah, correct. I mean, you can
Speaker 2: imagine if someone that's very close to you didn't invite
Speaker 2: you for something important, but they invited somebody that seemingly
Speaker 2: not so close to you at the workplace, then you'll
Speaker 2: be asking a lot of questions like why am I
Speaker 2: not invited. So I think Andy, the colleagues action to
Speaker 2: block you on social media could be their own way
Speaker 2: to cope with that.
Speaker 2: Disappointment and it's not something you can control. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: cannot be like the social media police. Why do you
Speaker 2: block me, you know, it's going to make things really awkward.
Speaker 2: So that's not a very realistic thing confronting them. It's
Speaker 2: not a realistic thing, and it will even seem petty
Speaker 2: to do so. So I think, go about your work
Speaker 2: with this colleague and then along the way, if you
Speaker 2: observe certain behaviors or changes in terms of how you're
Speaker 2: working together, maybe you want to have the clear the
Speaker 2: air conversation to try to find out like what happened.
Speaker 2: I notice certain things are different, the way we interact
Speaker 2: with each other is different.
Speaker 2: Maybe you'll have a chat about it. Yeah. Then if
Speaker 2: this wedding thing comes up, then maybe you can apologize
Speaker 2: and you can say I didn't know, then you can
Speaker 2: explain your limitations as well. I mean, between the two
Speaker 2: of us, I'm more of the confrontational type of character, right,
Speaker 2: but actually I think in this case, there's no need
Speaker 2: to try and highlight the need to.
Speaker 2: Say, hey, let's sit down and then let's have a
Speaker 2: chat because I noticed things are a bit awkward, frosty
Speaker 2: between us. Is it because I didn't invite you to
Speaker 2: my wedding? I don't think that's necessary because I think
Speaker 2: let that matter pass, right? It's one of those things
Speaker 2: that I feel perhaps even upon reflection and these colleagues
Speaker 2: might also think maybe that wasn't the most mature way
Speaker 2: to deal with things. It's perfectly fine to continue to
Speaker 2: try and separate work from pleasure. So work with your
Speaker 2: colleague Andy like you usually do.
Speaker 2: Maybe go back to inviting your colleague back for lunches
Speaker 2: if you have been doing so, right? So just say, hey,
Speaker 2: you want to go for lunch? If your colleague says no,
Speaker 2: then OK, so be it. But if your colleague says, yeah, OK, sure.
Speaker 2: There's also a way for them to try and mend
Speaker 2: things without pointing out the elephant in the room. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And if in doubt, Andy, just name your firstborn after
Speaker 2: this colleague, right? Easy, this person will forgive you.
Speaker 2: Well, if like Andy, you have a work-related question, do
Speaker 2: write to us. We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. Otherwise,
Speaker 2: you can find us on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. The
Speaker 2: team behind the Work It podcast is Christina Robert, Joanne Chan,
Speaker 2: Juani Johari and Sai Ye Win. Sound mixing by Carrie Lim,
Speaker 2: video by Hanida Ahmed. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have
Speaker 2: a good lunch this week.