1 00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:05,699 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:10,189 --> 00:00:13,529 Speaker 2: Hi, this is Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. 3 00:00:13,829 --> 00:00:17,670 Speaker 2: We've all been seeing news of layoffs recently and that's 4 00:00:17,670 --> 00:00:20,718 Speaker 2: always not something very nice to hear. In a previous 5 00:00:20,719 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: episode where we discussed the signs before a company is 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,229 Speaker 2: headed for a retrenchment exercise, actually I was shocked to 7 00:00:27,229 --> 00:00:29,940 Speaker 2: learn that there are organizations that retrench their staff at 8 00:00:29,940 --> 00:00:32,388 Speaker 2: the end or even start of the year to avoid 9 00:00:32,389 --> 00:00:35,430 Speaker 2: giving up bonuses. Yes, if unfortunately you're one of them. 10 00:00:35,549 --> 00:00:38,098 Speaker 2: Or you've been retrenched yourself not too long ago, and 11 00:00:38,098 --> 00:00:40,459 Speaker 2: you're now looking for employment, you want to stay on 12 00:00:40,459 --> 00:00:42,900 Speaker 2: this podcast. Today we'll be talking about how to find 13 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:45,540 Speaker 2: your next job after you have been retrenched. With us 14 00:00:45,540 --> 00:00:47,900 Speaker 2: in the studio today to give us some career advice 15 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:51,110 Speaker 2: is Sean Tong. He's the head of Asia for HR 16 00:00:51,110 --> 00:00:55,259 Speaker 2: recruitment firm, Fraser Jones. Sean, welcome to the podcast. Thanks 17 00:00:55,259 --> 00:00:58,419 Speaker 2: for having me here. Sean, in your line of work, 18 00:00:58,619 --> 00:01:01,049 Speaker 2: do companies tend to view a 19 00:01:01,099 --> 00:01:05,410 Speaker 2: Job applicant negatively if they've been retrenched before? I would 20 00:01:05,410 --> 00:01:09,250 Speaker 2: say yes and no. They still look at the candidate 21 00:01:09,250 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: past employment history. So say if a candidate has about 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,819 Speaker 2: 10 years of experience, and the news is made public, 23 00:01:16,849 --> 00:01:20,809 Speaker 2: for example, Company A going through retrenchment this year due 24 00:01:20,809 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: to right sizing exercise. I mean, this is public news 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,569 Speaker 2: and the candidate could explain himself or her. 26 00:01:27,199 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 2: during the interview and that's perfectly all right. So what 27 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,550 Speaker 2: are some things that you would maybe advise companies when they, 28 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: let's say have an applicant on the table, they're looking 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,639 Speaker 2: at their resume and it says that they have been retrenched. 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: What would you advise companies to look for when they're 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,919 Speaker 2: looking at such an applicant? I think they should look 32 00:01:43,919 --> 00:01:47,959 Speaker 2: beyond the current reason why they have been retrenched. Look 33 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: at the skill sets they could bring on board and 34 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: value add to the organization. 35 00:01:52,370 --> 00:01:56,459 Speaker 2: And more importantly is the candidate himself or herself, meeting 36 00:01:56,459 --> 00:01:59,139 Speaker 2: them in person. Do they fit the culture of the 37 00:01:59,139 --> 00:02:03,300 Speaker 2: organization beyond the paper itself, but that said, it's very 38 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:07,059 Speaker 2: difficult to take away that unconscious biasedness because we all 39 00:02:07,059 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: know that Singapore market is very competitive, both locals or expats. 40 00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:15,138 Speaker 2: The challenge is because of the competition. 41 00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:19,339 Speaker 2: People who are without a job being immediately available, always 42 00:02:19,339 --> 00:02:22,860 Speaker 2: find it harder to get an interview opportunity as compared 43 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:25,619 Speaker 2: to someone who is currently in the job. This is 44 00:02:25,619 --> 00:02:28,940 Speaker 2: just human behavior, hiring manager behavior. So Sean, what you're 45 00:02:28,940 --> 00:02:31,049 Speaker 2: saying is someone who is already 46 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,210 Speaker 2: Working who's still in a job will be seen more 47 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:36,448 Speaker 2: positively by the next employer as compared to someone who's 48 00:02:36,449 --> 00:02:38,649 Speaker 2: out of a job, even though the person is immediately 49 00:02:38,649 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: available for work. That's correct. I think the only difference 50 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: is if companies are looking for someone urgently to fill 51 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:46,610 Speaker 2: the position. 52 00:02:46,990 --> 00:02:49,779 Speaker 2: Then that's when the pros and cons, you know, being 53 00:02:50,229 --> 00:02:53,470 Speaker 2: immediately available is an advantage. I think a lot of 54 00:02:53,470 --> 00:02:57,500 Speaker 2: people would be curious to know if today I'm being retrenched, 55 00:02:57,750 --> 00:03:00,229 Speaker 2: what are my odds in being able to quickly get 56 00:03:00,229 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: a job? A quick stat that I just pulled out, 57 00:03:02,910 --> 00:03:05,220 Speaker 2: so according to the manpower Ministry labor stats. 58 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,589 Speaker 2: They say that in Q2 last year, 2024, the re-entry 59 00:03:10,589 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 2: rate was 55%. Then Q3 it went up to 60.4%. 60 00:03:15,839 --> 00:03:19,229 Speaker 2: That's the resident rate of reentry to the workforce within 61 00:03:19,229 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: six months of retrenchment. 62 00:03:20,979 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: So I'm thinking to myself, yeah, I mean it's an improvement, 63 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:27,850 Speaker 2: but 60% is still not very high. So what would 64 00:03:27,850 --> 00:03:31,089 Speaker 2: you say realistically is the re-entry rate for people like 65 00:03:31,089 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: what should I be expecting after I get retrenched? On average, 66 00:03:34,770 --> 00:03:37,770 Speaker 2: it takes between 3 to 6 months to find a 67 00:03:37,770 --> 00:03:41,690 Speaker 2: new role in Singapore, and that depends on the industry demand. 68 00:03:42,009 --> 00:03:46,399 Speaker 2: And also economic conditions, right? Things are slowly trying to 69 00:03:46,399 --> 00:03:51,210 Speaker 2: get better compared to June 2023, which is 18 months ago, 70 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:53,889 Speaker 2: when you see a lot of tech firms going through layoffs, 71 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,559 Speaker 2: the big and the small. Skill set relevance in the 72 00:03:57,559 --> 00:03:59,169 Speaker 2: current job market is also critical. 73 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:03,830 Speaker 2: The next will be seniority. Senior roles could take even 74 00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:07,270 Speaker 2: longer than 6 months. Right. OK, so the older you get, 75 00:04:07,279 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: the harder it is to re-entry. Not necessarily by age. 76 00:04:10,699 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: There are people who are pretty senior early in their career, right? 77 00:04:14,669 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: Specifically the tech industry and financial services. So there are VPs. 78 00:04:19,774 --> 00:04:22,795 Speaker 2: Or senior VPs who are at the age of 30 79 00:04:22,795 --> 00:04:27,445 Speaker 2: plus minus. Some other factors influencing duration could be the 80 00:04:27,445 --> 00:04:30,924 Speaker 2: strength of your network, right? If you stay connected to 81 00:04:30,924 --> 00:04:33,683 Speaker 2: some of the strong professional networks out there, it could 82 00:04:33,684 --> 00:04:36,053 Speaker 2: shorten the job search timeline. If I were to add 83 00:04:36,053 --> 00:04:40,363 Speaker 2: on to this point about the re-entry rate, 60.4%, this 84 00:04:40,363 --> 00:04:43,204 Speaker 2: is of course average across every age group. I think 85 00:04:43,204 --> 00:04:46,445 Speaker 2: if you distill down this rate into different age groups, 86 00:04:46,524 --> 00:04:47,643 Speaker 2: you'll start to see that. 87 00:04:48,209 --> 00:04:51,529 Speaker 2: Maybe certain age groups reenter faster and certain age groups 88 00:04:51,529 --> 00:04:55,678 Speaker 2: re-enter slower. So obviously it's different for people who are younger, 89 00:04:55,970 --> 00:04:59,209 Speaker 2: maybe it's easier for them to come back into the 90 00:04:59,209 --> 00:05:01,769 Speaker 2: job market also probably because what they're going to command 91 00:05:01,769 --> 00:05:04,488 Speaker 2: in terms of a salary will be slightly lower. So 92 00:05:04,488 --> 00:05:07,609 Speaker 2: companies that are already right sizing, they might take that 93 00:05:07,609 --> 00:05:10,329 Speaker 2: cost into factor, right, labor cost, right? This is something 94 00:05:10,329 --> 00:05:12,890 Speaker 2: that I personally I don't quite understand, although it is 95 00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:15,390 Speaker 2: the market dynamics, right? I don't quite understand this part 96 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:15,950 Speaker 2: because 97 00:05:16,329 --> 00:05:18,808 Speaker 2: Someone who has got a longer runway for a company, 98 00:05:18,850 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 2: if you are willing to hire them first, they may 99 00:05:21,559 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: not stay for very long, as compared to someone who's older, 100 00:05:24,850 --> 00:05:27,529 Speaker 2: who's a lot more experienced. If you can get them 101 00:05:27,529 --> 00:05:30,190 Speaker 2: on a good package, they will likely stay longer. Yeah, 102 00:05:30,260 --> 00:05:33,049 Speaker 2: maybe 1015, they might go all the way until retirement 103 00:05:33,049 --> 00:05:35,769 Speaker 2: for you, right? So for me, the current trend of 104 00:05:35,769 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 2: hiring for hiring managers and what I think it should be, 105 00:05:38,850 --> 00:05:41,529 Speaker 2: it doesn't quite match up in my own opinion, right? 106 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,829 Speaker 2: I'm someone who values experience. So someone who's older and 107 00:05:44,829 --> 00:05:46,869 Speaker 2: who's got a lot more experience and networks. And when 108 00:05:46,869 --> 00:05:49,230 Speaker 2: you get older, you get more networks, those come at 109 00:05:49,230 --> 00:05:51,750 Speaker 2: a price as well and surely the longevity of the 110 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:54,109 Speaker 2: tenure of work for them. I mean, I'm just speaking 111 00:05:54,109 --> 00:05:56,190 Speaker 2: to all the employers out there, if you really are considering, 112 00:05:56,470 --> 00:05:58,500 Speaker 2: why not think the other way as well. If everybody's 113 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:00,429 Speaker 2: going for the same fish, why not put your eyes 114 00:06:00,428 --> 00:06:05,190 Speaker 2: on something else? I think job flexibility matters as well, right? Singapore. 115 00:06:05,265 --> 00:06:08,255 Speaker 2: People value being in a permanent job. So being open 116 00:06:08,255 --> 00:06:12,575 Speaker 2: to contract part-time or even consulting roles may be able 117 00:06:12,575 --> 00:06:16,135 Speaker 2: to expedite employment. More and more companies are willing to 118 00:06:16,135 --> 00:06:19,575 Speaker 2: give a year contract or 6 month contract before converting 119 00:06:19,575 --> 00:06:22,053 Speaker 2: someone into a perm, which brings me to something that 120 00:06:22,053 --> 00:06:24,794 Speaker 2: I actually read on Reddit. So some people were saying, OK, 121 00:06:24,855 --> 00:06:28,575 Speaker 2: if you have been retrenched and you're looking for employment. 122 00:06:29,010 --> 00:06:31,368 Speaker 2: Then a good start would be to look for maternity 123 00:06:31,369 --> 00:06:34,529 Speaker 2: cover and then that might actually translate to a permanent 124 00:06:34,529 --> 00:06:36,690 Speaker 2: job later on. I think a lot of people might 125 00:06:36,690 --> 00:06:39,729 Speaker 2: be wondering, how do I then put myself in a 126 00:06:39,730 --> 00:06:43,369 Speaker 2: better position to get employment after I've been retrenched because 127 00:06:43,690 --> 00:06:46,010 Speaker 2: we said earlier on that there is a bit of 128 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:49,250 Speaker 2: that stigma. What are sort of like immediate steps can 129 00:06:49,250 --> 00:06:52,399 Speaker 2: we take, maybe in the first month after we've been retrenched. 130 00:06:52,488 --> 00:06:55,130 Speaker 2: This is a very common question we get this year, 131 00:06:55,339 --> 00:06:58,250 Speaker 2: particularly in the market where it's quite volatile. 132 00:06:58,559 --> 00:07:01,250 Speaker 2: I think the first thing is to acknowledge the situation. 133 00:07:01,619 --> 00:07:04,979 Speaker 2: For many, they have never been retrenched before. So take 134 00:07:04,980 --> 00:07:07,739 Speaker 2: a few days to process the news. It's difficult, but 135 00:07:07,738 --> 00:07:13,220 Speaker 2: not uncommon experience. Focus on the fact that retrenchment often 136 00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:16,940 Speaker 2: reflects business decision, not personal failure. I think the mindset 137 00:07:16,940 --> 00:07:21,179 Speaker 2: is very important. The next is refresh your resume, look 138 00:07:21,179 --> 00:07:24,220 Speaker 2: at LinkedIn profile, look at updating your LinkedIn profile, your 139 00:07:24,220 --> 00:07:24,940 Speaker 2: cover letter. 140 00:07:25,390 --> 00:07:29,670 Speaker 2: That is critical because to some and to many, they 141 00:07:29,670 --> 00:07:32,429 Speaker 2: have not done any work on their resume. They could 142 00:07:32,429 --> 00:07:35,070 Speaker 2: be in the company for 1015 years, right? They don't 143 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:38,029 Speaker 2: know where to begin. So search for professional help. There's 144 00:07:38,029 --> 00:07:40,429 Speaker 2: a lot of tools out there that can help individuals 145 00:07:40,429 --> 00:07:44,390 Speaker 2: with their resume. Also from my own experiences, this year 146 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:47,250 Speaker 2: I had 5 friends who lost their jobs, 5 friends, 147 00:07:47,309 --> 00:07:48,910 Speaker 2: and the thing is, they know what I'm doing right, 148 00:07:49,029 --> 00:07:50,950 Speaker 2: career counseling, and they still come to me and they 149 00:07:50,950 --> 00:07:52,899 Speaker 2: tell me like, I just want to let you know 150 00:07:53,109 --> 00:07:54,260 Speaker 2: that I've just been let go. 151 00:07:54,609 --> 00:07:57,700 Speaker 2: And I wish to keep this private. Yeah, yeah, but 152 00:07:57,700 --> 00:07:59,220 Speaker 2: a lot of them because like what Sean was saying, right, 153 00:07:59,299 --> 00:08:02,059 Speaker 2: it's like there's a shame shame, yeah, taboo, it's like 154 00:08:02,059 --> 00:08:04,049 Speaker 2: you don't want people to know that you've been let go, 155 00:08:04,700 --> 00:08:06,059 Speaker 2: but I feel like this is the time to tell 156 00:08:06,059 --> 00:08:08,010 Speaker 2: people that, hey, I'm going to look out for opportunities. 157 00:08:08,459 --> 00:08:10,519 Speaker 2: I'm available now and this is my value add, this 158 00:08:10,519 --> 00:08:12,980 Speaker 2: is my skill set. Help me. Tell me, where can 159 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:13,359 Speaker 2: I go? 160 00:08:13,829 --> 00:08:16,339 Speaker 2: Someone that you know that's looking for work. This is 161 00:08:16,339 --> 00:08:18,579 Speaker 2: part of the acknowledgement process. At least now you have 162 00:08:18,579 --> 00:08:20,829 Speaker 2: more sources to help you to hunt in that sense. 163 00:08:20,940 --> 00:08:22,820 Speaker 2: And it's not just the hunting part, right? It's also 164 00:08:22,820 --> 00:08:24,980 Speaker 2: the support that you get from people knowing that there 165 00:08:24,980 --> 00:08:27,230 Speaker 2: are 5 people out there who you trust and who 166 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:29,690 Speaker 2: also knows about you and willing to back you up 167 00:08:29,690 --> 00:08:31,779 Speaker 2: and support you a little bit more. I think it 168 00:08:31,779 --> 00:08:34,250 Speaker 2: just makes you feel like you're not alone in the journey. 169 00:08:34,450 --> 00:08:36,419 Speaker 2: Also at the same time, it may not only be 170 00:08:36,419 --> 00:08:39,459 Speaker 2: shame that they feel, it could be that it's hard 171 00:08:39,460 --> 00:08:40,989 Speaker 2: to actually handle when 172 00:08:41,359 --> 00:08:44,409 Speaker 2: You're telling people about something that's not so good that 173 00:08:44,409 --> 00:08:46,739 Speaker 2: has happened in your life and then people go, oh, 174 00:08:46,849 --> 00:08:49,689 Speaker 2: I am so sorry. Are you OK? And then suddenly 175 00:08:49,690 --> 00:08:51,450 Speaker 2: you have to hold space for them, right? And then 176 00:08:51,450 --> 00:08:53,419 Speaker 2: you have to explain to them that actually I'm OK. 177 00:08:53,789 --> 00:08:56,609 Speaker 2: I am taking steps and when you have to explain 178 00:08:56,609 --> 00:09:00,968 Speaker 2: to the 20th person and to make them feel OK 179 00:09:00,969 --> 00:09:02,329 Speaker 2: that you are not suffering. 180 00:09:02,570 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: It's actually quite tiring. So maybe some of them would 181 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,239 Speaker 2: rather just go, you know, I don't want to have 182 00:09:06,239 --> 00:09:10,059 Speaker 2: to deal with someone else's emotions. I am OK and 183 00:09:10,059 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 2: I would like to deal with my emotions myself. Having 184 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,690 Speaker 2: been in the recruitment industry for almost 2 decades right now, 185 00:09:17,919 --> 00:09:21,359 Speaker 2: I think the turning point is truly during COVID times, 186 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: because a lot of people's jobs are being affected. 187 00:09:24,570 --> 00:09:26,909 Speaker 2: Then you see a lot of people posting, people who 188 00:09:26,909 --> 00:09:30,209 Speaker 2: are affected posting on LinkedIn, and to say, hey, I've 189 00:09:30,210 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: been made redundant, I've been retrenched. They are very open 190 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,108 Speaker 2: in sharing. It's not being shameful of being retrenched, it's 191 00:09:37,109 --> 00:09:40,729 Speaker 2: just a business decision. So when more of those voices 192 00:09:40,729 --> 00:09:44,450 Speaker 2: are public, people are more willing to share those information 193 00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 2: and that in turn helped them to get more opportunity 194 00:09:47,729 --> 00:09:49,209 Speaker 2: because they should reach out to their former. 195 00:09:49,315 --> 00:09:52,664 Speaker 2: Colleagues, their former bosses, even friends and family to get 196 00:09:52,664 --> 00:09:54,984 Speaker 2: the work out there. So even in Singapore right now 197 00:09:54,984 --> 00:09:56,784 Speaker 2: when we are seeing a lot of news of retrenchments 198 00:09:56,784 --> 00:09:58,655 Speaker 2: and a lot of fears, it's actually a good thing 199 00:09:59,424 --> 00:10:02,465 Speaker 2: because employers are more receptive. There's this image that, OK, 200 00:10:02,544 --> 00:10:04,604 Speaker 2: there's a lot of talent out there, right? And then 201 00:10:04,604 --> 00:10:06,854 Speaker 2: whether you're retrenched or not, I can hire good people. 202 00:10:07,224 --> 00:10:10,234 Speaker 2: The challenge here comes with if today the market is tight, 203 00:10:10,465 --> 00:10:12,544 Speaker 2: if the labor market is very tight, there's very low 204 00:10:12,544 --> 00:10:14,224 Speaker 2: unemployment and nobody is retrenching. 205 00:10:14,489 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: And you got that unemployed person looking for a job, 206 00:10:17,340 --> 00:10:18,750 Speaker 2: and the unemployed person has been looking for a job 207 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:20,989 Speaker 2: for more than 6 months. That is a hard one. 208 00:10:21,070 --> 00:10:22,309 Speaker 2: That's what I would call like a lemon. 209 00:10:22,530 --> 00:10:24,869 Speaker 2: And employers will be wondering, are you a lemon? Oh, OK. 210 00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:27,869 Speaker 2: Like nobody wants you, right? Because everybody's scrambling for people, 211 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 2: but yet you cannot find a job for 6 months. 212 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? Some employers have the mindset. Yeah, 213 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: so that's of course in a tight labor market, but 214 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,479 Speaker 2: right now, I think if today someone is retrenched, it's 215 00:10:36,479 --> 00:10:39,119 Speaker 2: a really good opportunity to set your sights far. OK, 216 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: let's say in that scenario, 6 months later, even up 217 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,429 Speaker 2: to a year, you've done everything you can, right? 218 00:10:45,849 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: And still you haven't found any employment. Now what? Are 219 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,189 Speaker 2: you really a lemon or should you rethink about how 220 00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: you are planning things? I think back to my earlier point, 221 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: treat the job search like a project, set daily and 222 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,770 Speaker 2: weekly goals. Say for example, 5 applications per day, 2 223 00:11:05,770 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: networking calls, reach out to people, connect with people on LinkedIn. 224 00:11:09,489 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: Celebrate small wins, because being out of a job for 225 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,190 Speaker 2: 6 months, applying for jobs, going for interviews and not 226 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:19,489 Speaker 2: getting a job offer is very demoralizing. So I think 227 00:11:19,489 --> 00:11:22,210 Speaker 2: the mindset is critical and then create structure in the day. 228 00:11:22,489 --> 00:11:26,869 Speaker 2: For example, allocate time for job search, networking, upskilling, and 229 00:11:26,869 --> 00:11:32,150 Speaker 2: then avoid burnout, balance job hunting with exercise, with hobbies. 230 00:11:32,369 --> 00:11:34,570 Speaker 2: Still go for a short holiday. Don't take that away 231 00:11:34,570 --> 00:11:37,390 Speaker 2: from your life. I think the difficulty for many 232 00:11:37,664 --> 00:11:40,464 Speaker 2: How to fill up that void. So holidays is one, 233 00:11:40,625 --> 00:11:42,704 Speaker 2: of course, right. Some people have to do caregiving, so 234 00:11:42,705 --> 00:11:45,505 Speaker 2: that's another reason as well. But what I would advocate 235 00:11:45,505 --> 00:11:48,155 Speaker 2: for people is maybe go and take some training. Use 236 00:11:48,155 --> 00:11:50,744 Speaker 2: it as an opportunity to upskill yourself because it's so 237 00:11:50,744 --> 00:11:52,265 Speaker 2: good for an employer to say, what have you been 238 00:11:52,265 --> 00:11:54,205 Speaker 2: doing for the last one year, and then you say, 239 00:11:54,265 --> 00:11:56,625 Speaker 2: I've been learning certain things. And you have to realize 240 00:11:56,625 --> 00:11:59,424 Speaker 2: that when we go for training, it's not just acquisition 241 00:11:59,424 --> 00:12:03,565 Speaker 2: of knowledge, we are also acquiring networks. We are having classmates, 242 00:12:03,645 --> 00:12:05,455 Speaker 2: they have their own networks, they're meeting people. 243 00:12:05,940 --> 00:12:08,140 Speaker 2: When you make effort to go out for training, you're 244 00:12:08,140 --> 00:12:11,030 Speaker 2: actually giving yourself a routine, a sense of purpose, right? 245 00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:13,780 Speaker 2: It's like you're getting some pseudo career life back because 246 00:12:13,780 --> 00:12:15,780 Speaker 2: you're talking about the things that will propel you, help 247 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:18,419 Speaker 2: you to develop yourself into the future. Don't be what 248 00:12:18,419 --> 00:12:21,099 Speaker 2: we call the stay at home person who's just applying 249 00:12:21,099 --> 00:12:23,969 Speaker 2: for jobs. And just clicking with behind the screen, yeah. 250 00:12:24,155 --> 00:12:26,715 Speaker 2: Clicking refresh on your email box. Yes, because like what 251 00:12:26,715 --> 00:12:29,224 Speaker 2: Sean said, right, it can get very demoralizing. I've seen 252 00:12:29,224 --> 00:12:33,015 Speaker 2: people who took up courses and did a career switch 253 00:12:33,015 --> 00:12:35,815 Speaker 2: as well during this time. They took 3 to 6 months, 254 00:12:35,945 --> 00:12:39,565 Speaker 2: take up a course, go for interviews, yes and no, 255 00:12:39,645 --> 00:12:43,965 Speaker 2: it has to be something still slightly relevant. So for example, 256 00:12:44,265 --> 00:12:47,544 Speaker 2: like a retail operations manager could pivot into supply chain 257 00:12:47,544 --> 00:12:50,304 Speaker 2: roles right within the industry. I think what Sean pointed 258 00:12:50,304 --> 00:12:51,223 Speaker 2: out is very important. 259 00:12:51,570 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: A conversion is not something that is like an absolute 260 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,890 Speaker 2: different switch. That kind of big jump, right? It's quite 261 00:12:56,890 --> 00:12:59,809 Speaker 2: unrealistic actually. Employers will not be willing to hire you 262 00:12:59,809 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 2: outright for that limited training experience you have, but if 263 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: you can identify some transferables between what you have and 264 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 2: what you newly acquired as a knowledge to move into 265 00:13:07,599 --> 00:13:10,690 Speaker 2: a Jason role or nearby role, I think that it's 266 00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:11,799 Speaker 2: a beautiful match that. 267 00:13:11,929 --> 00:13:17,159 Speaker 2: be made. So if potential employers quiz you, let's say 268 00:13:17,159 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: they go, what happened during your retrenchment or you've been 269 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 2: retrenched and you haven't had a job in like 4 months. 270 00:13:24,119 --> 00:13:27,859 Speaker 2: How would you advise somebody who's going through that to 271 00:13:27,859 --> 00:13:31,590 Speaker 2: respond in an interview? My best advice is be authentic. 272 00:13:32,289 --> 00:13:34,979 Speaker 2: Come up with something that you have not done before, right? 273 00:13:35,119 --> 00:13:38,359 Speaker 2: I get this question a lot. Exactly, right? It's like, Sean, 274 00:13:38,539 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: what should I say during these 4 months. So my 275 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: question back to them is, what have you actually done 276 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,359 Speaker 2: during these 4 or 6 months? Have you been out 277 00:13:46,359 --> 00:13:49,140 Speaker 2: there networking? Have you been taking a sabbatical? Take a break. 278 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 2: If you haven't taken a break for 15 years or 279 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: 20 years working. 280 00:13:52,940 --> 00:13:56,299 Speaker 2: Then taking 2 to 3 months break is fair, right? 281 00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:59,020 Speaker 2: So if you're authentic and you're able to say that 282 00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:02,820 Speaker 2: confidently during interviews, then the interviewer on the other side 283 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:06,829 Speaker 2: of the table will believe you. I don't suggest lying, 284 00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:10,339 Speaker 2: trying to lie during an interview because people can sense it. 285 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:12,510 Speaker 2: I think being honest and authentic would be a great 286 00:14:12,510 --> 00:14:14,979 Speaker 2: way to start, but sometimes if today the retrenchment is 287 00:14:14,979 --> 00:14:15,500 Speaker 2: not known. 288 00:14:15,929 --> 00:14:18,369 Speaker 2: And employers ask, what made you leave your last job? 289 00:14:18,489 --> 00:14:20,109 Speaker 2: Why did you leave your last job? Then you are 290 00:14:20,109 --> 00:14:22,650 Speaker 2: in a position that you say or do you not say, right? 291 00:14:22,789 --> 00:14:24,669 Speaker 2: So in those situations, I always, yeah, I will just 292 00:14:24,669 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 2: tell them that you can disclose what you feel comfortable with. 293 00:14:27,229 --> 00:14:30,299 Speaker 2: But at the same time, try to divert the conversation 294 00:14:30,299 --> 00:14:33,659 Speaker 2: towards more of yourself and the job and the prospective job. So. 295 00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:36,289 Speaker 2: you're not lying, but you're just saying that yeah, the 296 00:14:36,289 --> 00:14:38,809 Speaker 2: company was having some difficulties as far as restructuring, I 297 00:14:38,809 --> 00:14:40,570 Speaker 2: was given a package, I thought it was the right 298 00:14:40,570 --> 00:14:43,929 Speaker 2: time to go. More importantly, there's this other opportunity that 299 00:14:43,929 --> 00:14:45,690 Speaker 2: your company has for me, and I can see how 300 00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:48,210 Speaker 2: these things that you are doing, you're offering is such 301 00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:50,409 Speaker 2: a good fit for me. I'm really interested to join. 302 00:14:50,570 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 2: It's almost like making the employer feel like 303 00:14:52,609 --> 00:14:55,429 Speaker 2: You have quit your company to join them. Yeah, you 304 00:14:55,429 --> 00:14:58,030 Speaker 2: just mention the word. Yes, don't focus on that. That's 305 00:14:58,030 --> 00:15:00,229 Speaker 2: what you're saying. Yeah, exactly, because employers don't want to 306 00:15:00,229 --> 00:15:03,159 Speaker 2: see a potential higher to be carrying baggage from the past. 307 00:15:03,349 --> 00:15:04,989 Speaker 2: More importantly, they want to know what can you do 308 00:15:04,989 --> 00:15:07,190 Speaker 2: for me? Can you really value add my business? Can 309 00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:09,590 Speaker 2: you contribute? Can you do something? Yeah, so I think 310 00:15:09,590 --> 00:15:10,539 Speaker 2: we need to always 311 00:15:10,705 --> 00:15:14,414 Speaker 2: Emphasize that fit and why you're interested in this new company. 312 00:15:14,885 --> 00:15:18,715 Speaker 2: It's very common these days where retrenchment or right sizing 313 00:15:18,715 --> 00:15:22,284 Speaker 2: exercise is due to a business decision, which is a 314 00:15:22,284 --> 00:15:25,565 Speaker 2: shutdown of a business unit, a region not doing well, 315 00:15:25,684 --> 00:15:28,684 Speaker 2: that's why they are removing a certain layer within the organization. 316 00:15:29,099 --> 00:15:31,500 Speaker 2: Touch and go, right? Don't focus too much on why 317 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:33,659 Speaker 2: you are being laid off or why you're the selected one. 318 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:36,900 Speaker 2: Focus on what's there and why you're interested in the 319 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:39,460 Speaker 2: role and why you're there at the interview. Yeah, on 320 00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:41,969 Speaker 2: that point, right, if today an employee really wants to know, really, 321 00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:43,659 Speaker 2: are you saying the right things, then that's where your 322 00:15:43,659 --> 00:15:46,700 Speaker 2: referees come in, your character referees that you provide, they 323 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:49,219 Speaker 2: will be the ones to vouch for your performance. So 324 00:15:49,219 --> 00:15:51,809 Speaker 2: if you could get a referee that's from your past job, right, 325 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:53,299 Speaker 2: then it sends a signal that 326 00:15:53,650 --> 00:15:56,359 Speaker 2: Actually, you were not like a bad hire. Your last 327 00:15:56,359 --> 00:15:58,409 Speaker 2: employer was willing to vouch for you and during COVID, 328 00:15:58,450 --> 00:16:00,609 Speaker 2: we saw a lot of that, right? Many exactly. Be 329 00:16:00,609 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: daring enough to ask for introductions. Oh yeah, that's true, 330 00:16:04,570 --> 00:16:07,969 Speaker 2: for a job, you would be 1 in 1000, 1 331 00:16:07,969 --> 00:16:10,989 Speaker 2: in 500, right? So how can your CV stand out? 332 00:16:11,119 --> 00:16:13,719 Speaker 2: It's true recommendation, through references. 333 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there are so many valuable tips and 334 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,570 Speaker 2: insights that we've talked about today and I hope that 335 00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:24,390 Speaker 2: whoever is listening to this podcast and feeling a bit down, 336 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,119 Speaker 2: maybe they would go, hey, you know what, OK, today 337 00:16:27,119 --> 00:16:28,909 Speaker 2: is the day I'm going to try and do something, 338 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:31,599 Speaker 2: even if it's just to take that 3 months sabbatical, 339 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: like you say, give yourself a break, it's OK. Give 340 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: yourself permission to have a break. So thank you so much, Sean, 341 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,159 Speaker 2: for coming on our podcast today. We really enjoyed having 342 00:16:39,159 --> 00:16:41,309 Speaker 2: you here. Thank you so much for having me here, 343 00:16:41,479 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: really enjoy my time. 344 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,289 Speaker 2: Hi, it's our Ask Me Anything segment. So let's get 345 00:16:50,289 --> 00:16:54,210 Speaker 2: straight into it. Today's one is sent in by Andy. 346 00:16:54,369 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: Andy is in an awkward social situation with a colleague. 347 00:16:59,049 --> 00:17:01,609 Speaker 2: See what happened is, OK, I'll read this out. 348 00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:05,708 Speaker 2: And he says, I didn't invite a colleague to my wedding, 349 00:17:05,819 --> 00:17:09,909 Speaker 2: but I did invite some others. He is offended and 350 00:17:09,910 --> 00:17:13,270 Speaker 2: I'm worried that this will affect our working relationship because 351 00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:17,020 Speaker 2: he also blocked me on social media. What should I do? 352 00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:19,750 Speaker 2: I know some people might be thinking, eh, it's a 353 00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:24,270 Speaker 2: straightforward one, right? Don't care what this colleague thinks, it's 354 00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:27,379 Speaker 2: your wedding, Andy, and you decide who makes the list 355 00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:27,909 Speaker 2: or not. 356 00:17:28,239 --> 00:17:30,958 Speaker 2: But I don't think Andy is regretting his decision here. 357 00:17:31,088 --> 00:17:33,688 Speaker 2: The problem is, he thinks it's going to affect the 358 00:17:33,688 --> 00:17:36,609 Speaker 2: working relationship and likely so because you know, sounds like 359 00:17:36,609 --> 00:17:39,048 Speaker 2: this colleague is not very mature in the way that 360 00:17:39,048 --> 00:17:39,928 Speaker 2: he's dealing with it. 361 00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:44,270 Speaker 2: So Gerald, what do you think Andy should do? Wow, 362 00:17:44,609 --> 00:17:46,909 Speaker 2: it's like something that all of us worry about whether 363 00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:49,670 Speaker 2: we are going for like an important event like a wedding, 364 00:17:49,709 --> 00:17:52,469 Speaker 2: who should we invite? We get limited tables. So we 365 00:17:52,469 --> 00:17:55,270 Speaker 2: really have to invite the right people and unfortunately, some 366 00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:58,819 Speaker 2: people must be left out. So unfortunately, Andy, I think 367 00:17:58,819 --> 00:18:01,149 Speaker 2: if your colleague blocked you on social media for this reason. 368 00:18:01,239 --> 00:18:03,790 Speaker 2: Then maybe your colleague really felt really left out and 369 00:18:03,790 --> 00:18:06,510 Speaker 2: sidelined by you. So I think maybe you want to 370 00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:09,750 Speaker 2: consider this whether you feel that it's reasonable for your 371 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:11,869 Speaker 2: colleague to respond to you in this way, right? What 372 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:14,389 Speaker 2: I mean by reasonable is if today this is someone 373 00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:16,670 Speaker 2: who has been lunching with you, who has been talking 374 00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:19,109 Speaker 2: to you, you've been going out a lot, even after 375 00:18:19,109 --> 00:18:21,790 Speaker 2: work drinks, you chat a lot, you work very closely 376 00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 2: and then 377 00:18:22,410 --> 00:18:24,109 Speaker 2: To find out that this person is not in that 378 00:18:24,109 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: list for the wedding, OK, OK, then it means something, right? 379 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 2: So first, Andy, you got to consider whether were you 380 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 2: sending wrong signals? Yeah, yeah, correct. I mean, you can 381 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 2: imagine if someone that's very close to you didn't invite 382 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,629 Speaker 2: you for something important, but they invited somebody that seemingly 383 00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:42,079 Speaker 2: not so close to you at the workplace, then you'll 384 00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:43,438 Speaker 2: be asking a lot of questions like why am I 385 00:18:43,439 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 2: not invited. So I think Andy, the colleagues action to 386 00:18:45,959 --> 00:18:47,670 Speaker 2: block you on social media could be their own way 387 00:18:47,670 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 2: to cope with that. 388 00:18:48,354 --> 00:18:50,905 Speaker 2: Disappointment and it's not something you can control. Yeah, you 389 00:18:50,905 --> 00:18:52,704 Speaker 2: cannot be like the social media police. Why do you 390 00:18:52,704 --> 00:18:54,875 Speaker 2: block me, you know, it's going to make things really awkward. 391 00:18:55,104 --> 00:18:57,385 Speaker 2: So that's not a very realistic thing confronting them. It's 392 00:18:57,385 --> 00:18:59,375 Speaker 2: not a realistic thing, and it will even seem petty 393 00:18:59,375 --> 00:19:01,755 Speaker 2: to do so. So I think, go about your work 394 00:19:01,755 --> 00:19:04,104 Speaker 2: with this colleague and then along the way, if you 395 00:19:04,104 --> 00:19:06,744 Speaker 2: observe certain behaviors or changes in terms of how you're 396 00:19:06,744 --> 00:19:08,833 Speaker 2: working together, maybe you want to have the clear the 397 00:19:08,834 --> 00:19:11,305 Speaker 2: air conversation to try to find out like what happened. 398 00:19:11,405 --> 00:19:13,385 Speaker 2: I notice certain things are different, the way we interact 399 00:19:13,385 --> 00:19:14,214 Speaker 2: with each other is different. 400 00:19:14,550 --> 00:19:17,229 Speaker 2: Maybe you'll have a chat about it. Yeah. Then if 401 00:19:17,229 --> 00:19:19,810 Speaker 2: this wedding thing comes up, then maybe you can apologize 402 00:19:19,810 --> 00:19:21,869 Speaker 2: and you can say I didn't know, then you can 403 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:24,109 Speaker 2: explain your limitations as well. I mean, between the two 404 00:19:24,109 --> 00:19:27,030 Speaker 2: of us, I'm more of the confrontational type of character, right, 405 00:19:27,109 --> 00:19:29,670 Speaker 2: but actually I think in this case, there's no need 406 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 2: to try and highlight the need to. 407 00:19:31,545 --> 00:19:33,925 Speaker 2: Say, hey, let's sit down and then let's have a 408 00:19:33,925 --> 00:19:37,045 Speaker 2: chat because I noticed things are a bit awkward, frosty 409 00:19:37,045 --> 00:19:39,285 Speaker 2: between us. Is it because I didn't invite you to 410 00:19:39,285 --> 00:19:42,444 Speaker 2: my wedding? I don't think that's necessary because I think 411 00:19:42,444 --> 00:19:45,005 Speaker 2: let that matter pass, right? It's one of those things 412 00:19:45,005 --> 00:19:47,925 Speaker 2: that I feel perhaps even upon reflection and these colleagues 413 00:19:47,925 --> 00:19:50,764 Speaker 2: might also think maybe that wasn't the most mature way 414 00:19:50,765 --> 00:19:53,364 Speaker 2: to deal with things. It's perfectly fine to continue to 415 00:19:53,364 --> 00:19:56,125 Speaker 2: try and separate work from pleasure. So work with your 416 00:19:56,125 --> 00:19:57,895 Speaker 2: colleague Andy like you usually do. 417 00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:00,780 Speaker 2: Maybe go back to inviting your colleague back for lunches 418 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:02,899 Speaker 2: if you have been doing so, right? So just say, hey, 419 00:20:02,979 --> 00:20:04,869 Speaker 2: you want to go for lunch? If your colleague says no, 420 00:20:04,939 --> 00:20:07,709 Speaker 2: then OK, so be it. But if your colleague says, yeah, OK, sure. 421 00:20:07,819 --> 00:20:10,540 Speaker 2: There's also a way for them to try and mend 422 00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:13,569 Speaker 2: things without pointing out the elephant in the room. Yeah. 423 00:20:13,739 --> 00:20:16,810 Speaker 2: And if in doubt, Andy, just name your firstborn after 424 00:20:16,810 --> 00:20:20,389 Speaker 2: this colleague, right? Easy, this person will forgive you. 425 00:20:20,810 --> 00:20:23,599 Speaker 2: Well, if like Andy, you have a work-related question, do 426 00:20:23,599 --> 00:20:28,478 Speaker 2: write to us. We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. Otherwise, 427 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: you can find us on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. The 428 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,479 Speaker 2: team behind the Work It podcast is Christina Robert, Joanne Chan, 429 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,290 Speaker 2: Juani Johari and Sai Ye Win. Sound mixing by Carrie Lim, 430 00:20:39,479 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: video by Hanida Ahmed. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have 431 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,198 Speaker 2: a good lunch this week.