1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,219 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,970 Speaker 2: Hello again, I'm Stephen Chow and welcome back to another 3 00:00:07,970 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 2: episode of heart of the matter. Now. Terrorism is a 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,910 Speaker 2: word that is no longer foreign to us. But when 5 00:00:13,910 --> 00:00:16,740 Speaker 2: I heard it associated with someone who is just 15 6 00:00:16,739 --> 00:00:19,620 Speaker 2: years old now that made my hair stand 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,169 Speaker 2: in recent months to self radicalized Singapore youth were issued 8 00:00:23,170 --> 00:00:26,630 Speaker 2: an order of detention and restriction order under the Internal 9 00:00:26,630 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: Security Act or I. S. A. They were only 15 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,309 Speaker 2: and 16 years old since 2015. Singapore's Ministry of Home 11 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: Affairs have dealt with nine radicalized youth 12 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,710 Speaker 2: And for most of us that is nine too many. 13 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,029 Speaker 2: So why are Children as young as 14 becoming interested 14 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,870 Speaker 2: in extremist religious content? How are they getting exposed to it? 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,279 Speaker 2: And how much is due to the gaming environments they 16 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,990 Speaker 2: are in does rehab work. How can we help them 17 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: joining me for today's discussion ah Dr Mohammed bin ali, 18 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,789 Speaker 2: Vice chairman and counselor with the religious rehabilitation group. Hi everyone. 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,620 Speaker 2: Dr Omar Ali Saifuddin Hit Military studies minor at the 20 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:14,470 Speaker 2: Singapore University of Social Sciences, everyone. Mr Nicholas cu co 21 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:18,010 Speaker 2: founder and former chairman of Singapore, Cyber Sports and Online 22 00:01:18,010 --> 00:01:20,610 Speaker 2: Gaming Association. Hi everyone, it's great to be here. All 23 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:21,949 Speaker 2: right guys, thanks for coming on. 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: Dr let me start with you. I want to ask 25 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 2: you because you've done research on this. Help us unpack 26 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,490 Speaker 2: and understand this phenomenon where someone is radicalized. 27 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: Okay, let's take a look at the word radical and 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,910 Speaker 1: let's steer clear of all the academic jargon behind it 29 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,770 Speaker 1: when we talk about someone who is a radical in 30 00:01:40,770 --> 00:01:44,660 Speaker 1: common literature and how it's been used over the decades, 31 00:01:44,670 --> 00:01:48,020 Speaker 1: it comes from the latin root word Maddix. The radical 32 00:01:48,030 --> 00:01:50,500 Speaker 1: basically is the root of certain issues. 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: So, for example, if you're a radical, you're basically straying 34 00:01:54,330 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: away from the mainstream, you're straying away from the center 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,170 Speaker 1: of things. So that's what it basically means. But then 36 00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:06,610 Speaker 1: again look, you have radical musicians, you have radical poets 37 00:02:06,620 --> 00:02:09,260 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. The term by itself 38 00:02:09,260 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: is not problematic. What we're talking about is radicalization into 39 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: violent extremism. 40 00:02:16,710 --> 00:02:21,490 Speaker 1: Now, that's where everything changes here. We're talking about radicalization 41 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:27,150 Speaker 1: as a process that moves you towards accepting ideologies that 42 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:30,930 Speaker 1: promote violent extremism. So what is the key feature of 43 00:02:30,930 --> 00:02:33,869 Speaker 1: these political ideologies? Number one, you've got to have an enemy, 44 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,460 Speaker 1: you've got to have someone that you demonize and vilify 45 00:02:36,470 --> 00:02:40,460 Speaker 1: as a source of all societal problems, your problems, everything 46 00:02:40,470 --> 00:02:44,350 Speaker 1: that's the central feature here. You got to vilify someone. Secondly, 47 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,310 Speaker 1: they advocate violence as a solution 48 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,740 Speaker 1: and that's where the line is drawn. Okay, 49 00:02:48,740 --> 00:02:51,460 Speaker 2: so those two key aspects really make a difference to it, 50 00:02:51,470 --> 00:02:53,500 Speaker 2: dr ali there are a lot of common myths that 51 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,490 Speaker 2: we have about radicalization share with us. Some of those 52 00:02:56,510 --> 00:02:59,299 Speaker 2: people usually think that only the young people can be 53 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:03,579 Speaker 2: radicalized actually those who have been involved in acts of terrorism. 54 00:03:03,590 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: If you look at the profile, for example, in Singapore, 55 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 2: the profile of the Gi detainees right to those self 56 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,170 Speaker 2: radicalized online until today, those infants by ISIS narrative, 57 00:03:15,185 --> 00:03:18,834 Speaker 2: We find that there is no single profile of radicalization, 58 00:03:18,845 --> 00:03:23,495 Speaker 2: anybody can be radicalized regardless of their age, gender political 59 00:03:23,495 --> 00:03:27,524 Speaker 2: aspiration in terms of their work background. And most importantly, 60 00:03:27,525 --> 00:03:31,385 Speaker 2: I think is people from any religious background and tradition 61 00:03:31,385 --> 00:03:34,035 Speaker 2: can be radicalized. It's interesting you mentioned that because very 62 00:03:34,035 --> 00:03:37,115 Speaker 2: often we link it to Muslims, but I recall we've 63 00:03:37,115 --> 00:03:38,885 Speaker 2: also seen a 16 year old Christian boy 64 00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:42,060 Speaker 2: Who was detained back in 2021. He wanted to attack 65 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:46,110 Speaker 2: some moss right. It really has no boundaries in terms 66 00:03:46,110 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: of who and where and what their background is. Right? Exactly. 67 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,580 Speaker 2: That's a clear evidence that anybody can be radicalized this 68 00:03:52,580 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: process of someone being introduced into this ideological or political 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,540 Speaker 2: message and the region is just a tool being used 70 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: by all these individuals. 71 00:04:02,615 --> 00:04:05,025 Speaker 2: Now, one of the things we often hear about those arrested, 72 00:04:05,035 --> 00:04:07,365 Speaker 2: we know who they are, but we often don't get 73 00:04:07,365 --> 00:04:10,425 Speaker 2: news of things like their family background, the schools that 74 00:04:10,425 --> 00:04:12,464 Speaker 2: they went to. I mean, I can see why it's 75 00:04:12,465 --> 00:04:15,185 Speaker 2: not necessary for the general public to know. But in 76 00:04:15,185 --> 00:04:17,925 Speaker 2: your work with these young people, how significant is the 77 00:04:17,925 --> 00:04:21,435 Speaker 2: role of family or the larger environment they are in 78 00:04:21,445 --> 00:04:26,315 Speaker 2: family plays a very important role in deterring online radicalization 79 00:04:26,550 --> 00:04:31,100 Speaker 2: because families, they are the first line of defense against radicalization. 80 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:35,430 Speaker 2: You know, for example, if radicalization is suspected, the parents 81 00:04:35,430 --> 00:04:38,830 Speaker 2: and even other family members like siblings, they must realize 82 00:04:38,830 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: that they have to intervene because that is actually helping 83 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: their child 84 00:04:42,260 --> 00:04:46,740 Speaker 2: if they are not able to advise and give guidance, 85 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: they must have regards to kind of report the case 86 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,010 Speaker 2: to the authorities. The family institution is key. It has 87 00:04:53,020 --> 00:04:57,970 Speaker 2: always been ignored by the anti ecosystem in fighting online radicalization. 88 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,470 Speaker 2: You look at the three cases that we have this 89 00:05:00,470 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: year that none of their family members were actually aware 90 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:07,979 Speaker 2: about their Children's online activities and we cannot leave these 91 00:05:07,990 --> 00:05:11,859 Speaker 2: monitoring work to the authorities to do that. Because families, 92 00:05:11,860 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: they're very close to their loved ones. They play a 93 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,870 Speaker 2: very critical role here to deter on. 94 00:05:17,615 --> 00:05:20,585 Speaker 2: But that's a big question because much of our lives 95 00:05:20,585 --> 00:05:22,665 Speaker 2: lived online, you know, all the work we do, the 96 00:05:22,665 --> 00:05:25,985 Speaker 2: stuff we do at school are social interaction. So Nick 97 00:05:25,985 --> 00:05:28,065 Speaker 2: maybe I get your take on this because our young 98 00:05:28,065 --> 00:05:31,505 Speaker 2: people are living more online than maybe in the real 99 00:05:31,505 --> 00:05:34,595 Speaker 2: world and we can't keep an eye on them 24/7, 100 00:05:34,595 --> 00:05:38,095 Speaker 2: we can't be knowing exactly what it is. They're looking 101 00:05:38,095 --> 00:05:39,185 Speaker 2: at all the time. 102 00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: What do you think here is the concern? How should 103 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,289 Speaker 2: parents respond to what the doctor Ali has just 104 00:05:44,290 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: said in these online games? They're very diverse and they 105 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,089 Speaker 1: have different features and different ways they design. They facilitate 106 00:05:52,100 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: conversations or relationships. But end of the aim is to 107 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: be interactive and engaging. And actually a lot of these 108 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,670 Speaker 1: conversations very much within small groups and it's very easy 109 00:06:03,670 --> 00:06:06,339 Speaker 1: to be anonymous, so it's really, really tough. I'm a 110 00:06:06,339 --> 00:06:08,770 Speaker 1: parent myself and it's really tough to say that I 111 00:06:08,770 --> 00:06:09,339 Speaker 1: need to be too 112 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,340 Speaker 1: totally aware of how my kids are having conversations of 113 00:06:13,350 --> 00:06:16,410 Speaker 1: who they're meeting in every game. Is it is really 114 00:06:16,420 --> 00:06:20,050 Speaker 1: tough responsibility for parents, right? It doesn't really help that 115 00:06:20,060 --> 00:06:23,500 Speaker 1: for the longest time as the youth they spend time 116 00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:25,630 Speaker 1: in the games, right? Which is going to be very, 117 00:06:25,630 --> 00:06:28,849 Speaker 1: very engaging. They end up spending more time than they 118 00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:29,789 Speaker 1: hope to spend 119 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: and then it ends up like maybe affecting their grades 120 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,070 Speaker 1: or sometimes it's just a great place for them to 121 00:06:34,070 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: hide away, get away from the mainstream and then they 122 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,610 Speaker 1: come online, they meet other people who may be kind 123 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:43,969 Speaker 1: of like feeling the same about life as they, you know, 124 00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:46,970 Speaker 1: they don't feel that society is treating them right and 125 00:06:46,970 --> 00:06:50,740 Speaker 1: that they're meeting each other, they're like almost like commiserating 126 00:06:50,750 --> 00:06:52,910 Speaker 1: and they're building relationships, they're bonding, does 127 00:06:52,910 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 2: this online space then become more welcoming to them? Do 128 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,260 Speaker 2: they feel more included there? 129 00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:00,180 Speaker 2: They find more of a community there, it could be 130 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:03,110 Speaker 1: a more fertile ground as they come together, They do 131 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:06,730 Speaker 1: that they are meeting like minded fellow youths who feel 132 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:09,930 Speaker 1: the same way as they do and maybe create a 133 00:07:09,930 --> 00:07:12,500 Speaker 1: more fertile ground for recruitment or radicalization 134 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:15,220 Speaker 2: Because the 15 year old actually told investigators that he 135 00:07:15,220 --> 00:07:18,730 Speaker 2: stumbled on podcast by preacher is mom and within months 136 00:07:18,730 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: he was deeply radicalized. We also know that there are 137 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,300 Speaker 2: a lot of Nasheed's or ISIS songs, a sense that 138 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:24,570 Speaker 2: are online on YouTube. 139 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,820 Speaker 2: They're very emotive, just like many religious songs out there. 140 00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: So are these kids also not able to discern between 141 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:33,010 Speaker 2: what they should be looking at, what they should not 142 00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: be looking at? You don't know, right? Everything looks okay 143 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: to you, right. Many of these young people when they 144 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,410 Speaker 2: are on the verge of radicalization, they were looking for 145 00:07:41,410 --> 00:07:43,350 Speaker 2: some kind of religious identity. 146 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: In many cases they want to learn about Islam, but 147 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,630 Speaker 2: the problem is they do not want to go to 148 00:07:48,630 --> 00:07:52,810 Speaker 2: the mosque, even learn Islam from accredited religious teachers because 149 00:07:52,810 --> 00:07:55,070 Speaker 2: to them, this is kind of waste time everything that 150 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,690 Speaker 2: the religious teachers taught in class, they can get it 151 00:07:57,690 --> 00:08:00,540 Speaker 2: better online. Right? So this is where the danger lies 152 00:08:00,540 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: when you know religious knowledge for example, I mean like 153 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,910 Speaker 2: those cases, you heard these young people, young boys listening 154 00:08:06,910 --> 00:08:10,950 Speaker 2: to mufti men and foreign preachers like and others 155 00:08:11,180 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: because they are understanding and teaching of Islam does not 156 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,950 Speaker 2: suit the context of Singapore. This reality is not known 157 00:08:17,950 --> 00:08:20,460 Speaker 2: by many young Muslims here. And are these young ones 158 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:23,410 Speaker 2: a bit naive also, so they hear this preacher, he's 159 00:08:23,410 --> 00:08:26,870 Speaker 2: so charismatic, he's so he makes it so engaging. You're like, wow, 160 00:08:26,870 --> 00:08:30,230 Speaker 2: that sounds so good. Right? Exactly. So they get caught 161 00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:32,230 Speaker 2: up in it? Yeah, I just 162 00:08:32,230 --> 00:08:32,579 Speaker 1: want to 163 00:08:32,596 --> 00:08:35,906 Speaker 1: put in some other perspectives here at this point, firstly 164 00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:38,386 Speaker 1: in the online space, there are all kinds of extremism 165 00:08:38,496 --> 00:08:41,296 Speaker 1: and we just mentioned, there's a far right, there's even 166 00:08:41,306 --> 00:08:44,446 Speaker 1: a lot of misogynist ideas out there. You heard about 167 00:08:44,446 --> 00:08:47,425 Speaker 1: the in cell subculture. There's this new stuff going around 168 00:08:47,426 --> 00:08:51,126 Speaker 1: called gore, posting and posting and so on and so forth. 169 00:08:51,136 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of harmful ideologies 170 00:08:54,011 --> 00:08:58,362 Speaker 1: out their political, religious or otherwise, there's no filter on this. 171 00:08:58,372 --> 00:09:00,862 Speaker 1: When someone who is young and not able to discern 172 00:09:00,862 --> 00:09:03,902 Speaker 1: is going online, you basically have a buffet spread of 173 00:09:03,912 --> 00:09:06,392 Speaker 1: stuff that you can explore. There are no limits to 174 00:09:06,392 --> 00:09:08,532 Speaker 1: what they can explore. But one of the main things 175 00:09:08,532 --> 00:09:11,771 Speaker 1: we need to understand this whole idea of community finding 176 00:09:11,772 --> 00:09:13,982 Speaker 1: your identity. But we've got to remember another thing, this 177 00:09:13,982 --> 00:09:16,912 Speaker 1: thing about alternate families when they lose touch with the 178 00:09:16,912 --> 00:09:17,652 Speaker 1: real world, 179 00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:20,540 Speaker 1: when they can't really connect with basically people in the 180 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:23,500 Speaker 1: real world, with their own families and our communities in 181 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:26,310 Speaker 1: the real world, they find an alternate family, 182 00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:30,790 Speaker 1: an alternate group of people who see them understand their world. 183 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,980 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the movie over time, but 184 00:09:33,980 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: Nicholas, most parents are a bit concerned about the games, 185 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,110 Speaker 2: because we've heard of roadblocks and now there's this platform discord, 186 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:42,220 Speaker 2: which essentially is a chat room for young people, right? 187 00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:42,550 Speaker 2: And 188 00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:44,650 Speaker 2: my son uses it to to chat with friends. So 189 00:09:44,660 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 2: how have these platforms become such a powerful tool for 190 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,470 Speaker 2: radicalization first of 191 00:09:49,470 --> 00:09:53,950 Speaker 1: all, as dr Omar has mentioned, it's all sorts of extremism. 192 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: You may not just be religious for a lot of 193 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,309 Speaker 1: these young people, they go online, 194 00:09:58,460 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: there are additional natives, right? So they tend to have 195 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,500 Speaker 1: a stronger affinity towards technology, like mentioned this court sometimes 196 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:06,830 Speaker 1: when I talk to these young people, if I'm not 197 00:10:06,830 --> 00:10:08,590 Speaker 1: on this court, I'm not cool and I should be 198 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,370 Speaker 1: talking to them on this court at the same time. 199 00:10:12,370 --> 00:10:15,410 Speaker 1: If you think about it, we are encouraging them towards 200 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:18,620 Speaker 1: technology to embrace technology. And then at the same time 201 00:10:18,620 --> 00:10:22,050 Speaker 1: they're learning about like coding programming and some of them 202 00:10:22,050 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: they come together and they feel something's that happening in 203 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,620 Speaker 1: the wider society may not resonate with them and 204 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:29,846 Speaker 1: and they feel a sense of resentment and they're bonding together. 205 00:10:29,856 --> 00:10:33,016 Speaker 1: It's not just about religious extremism, right? It could be 206 00:10:33,016 --> 00:10:36,425 Speaker 1: grooming hackers that could be gearing to ideologies like anonymous 207 00:10:36,436 --> 00:10:39,496 Speaker 1: to your point about the parents concerned that platforms like 208 00:10:39,506 --> 00:10:42,925 Speaker 1: this called games like Minecraft and Roadblocks, right? Kind of 209 00:10:42,926 --> 00:10:46,376 Speaker 1: like promotes this push for them to embrace this technology, 210 00:10:46,376 --> 00:10:49,306 Speaker 1: to learn more about how to use technology, right? And 211 00:10:49,405 --> 00:10:50,566 Speaker 1: proper guidance is tough. 212 00:10:50,576 --> 00:10:52,825 Speaker 2: But Nicholas, I mean to be fair, technology has a 213 00:10:52,826 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: lot of good, they do learn a lot 214 00:10:54,812 --> 00:10:56,962 Speaker 2: from a lot of these platforms, but I pick up 215 00:10:56,962 --> 00:11:00,002 Speaker 2: on two words you mentioned fester and breeding grounds? So 216 00:11:00,002 --> 00:11:02,722 Speaker 2: it almost is like a seed, you build it and 217 00:11:02,722 --> 00:11:04,582 Speaker 2: then you start letting it grow a little bit. But 218 00:11:04,592 --> 00:11:07,442 Speaker 2: it's just that it happens online and unsupervised because one 219 00:11:07,442 --> 00:11:10,422 Speaker 2: of the teens mentioned how he had joined multiple ISIS 220 00:11:10,422 --> 00:11:14,521 Speaker 2: theme service that basically replicated conflict in the real world 221 00:11:14,532 --> 00:11:16,402 Speaker 2: and he was playing a game as if he was 222 00:11:16,402 --> 00:11:19,342 Speaker 2: an ISIS member shooting other people, you know, So it 223 00:11:19,342 --> 00:11:21,942 Speaker 2: was a simulation that we use now to train some 224 00:11:21,942 --> 00:11:22,982 Speaker 2: of our real soldiers. 225 00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:25,940 Speaker 2: This sounds really scary. Are we equipped to deal with 226 00:11:25,940 --> 00:11:28,030 Speaker 2: these methods that these organizations are 227 00:11:28,030 --> 00:11:30,790 Speaker 1: using steve? I just want to add what research on 228 00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: this basically shows at the moment. You see there are 229 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: many types of gamers out there. 230 00:11:35,490 --> 00:11:37,699 Speaker 1: We've got to understand that not all the same. The 231 00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:41,500 Speaker 1: category that you are talking about. For example, ISIS far 232 00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:44,530 Speaker 1: right groups. A lot of them have produced their own 233 00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:47,630 Speaker 1: first person shooter games and stuff out there. That basically 234 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,890 Speaker 1: pulls people who are already radicalized. I repeat, they're already 235 00:11:51,890 --> 00:11:54,970 Speaker 1: radicalized into this ecosystem. So it's just an echo chamber 236 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:57,469 Speaker 1: of like minded people who are just playing it out 237 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,630 Speaker 1: within that beautiful fantasy that they've already 238 00:11:59,643 --> 00:12:03,673 Speaker 1: created. But there is another architect now, this is basically 239 00:12:03,673 --> 00:12:05,723 Speaker 1: an open ground in which they are looking out for 240 00:12:05,723 --> 00:12:08,293 Speaker 1: potential recruits. And the thing is that whether it's neo 241 00:12:08,293 --> 00:12:11,953 Speaker 1: Nazi symbolism. Grd symbolism, some of them certainly sort of 242 00:12:11,953 --> 00:12:15,833 Speaker 1: bring that into the communication that happens within these online 243 00:12:15,833 --> 00:12:18,093 Speaker 1: giving platforms what I'm trying to say. And this is 244 00:12:18,093 --> 00:12:21,753 Speaker 1: an important point. We don't know enough about digital natives 245 00:12:21,763 --> 00:12:23,780 Speaker 1: and their subculture which is changing 246 00:12:23,796 --> 00:12:27,026 Speaker 1: rapidly. Hate speech and stuff is normalized. I was just 247 00:12:27,026 --> 00:12:29,535 Speaker 1: speaking to a gamer and they were saying that for example, 248 00:12:29,535 --> 00:12:31,595 Speaker 1: like FIFA and they're playing a game and one of 249 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:34,586 Speaker 1: the members does badly in that game and suddenly everybody 250 00:12:34,586 --> 00:12:37,506 Speaker 1: started gangs up and they start hitting this person and very, 251 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:42,236 Speaker 1: very fast that speech becomes hate speech. It's the norm. 252 00:12:42,256 --> 00:12:45,206 Speaker 1: There are even groups like Gamergate trying to keep women 253 00:12:45,206 --> 00:12:47,035 Speaker 1: out of it and they are very misogynist and so 254 00:12:47,035 --> 00:12:47,946 Speaker 1: on and so forth. 255 00:12:48,190 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: You see all that happening, it's an environment in which 256 00:12:51,929 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: this can propagate. But having said that there's a lot 257 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,300 Speaker 1: of good that's happening in terms of cultivating things like 258 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,630 Speaker 1: good sportsmanship in e sports and so on and so forth, 259 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,090 Speaker 1: most people can find their way. But the thing is 260 00:13:04,090 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: that you have a wide open space 261 00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:09,660 Speaker 1: in which all kinds of people come in, those who 262 00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:12,469 Speaker 1: are well adjusted and those who are not and 263 00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:16,390 Speaker 2: if it's not properly regulated, then it allows these young 264 00:13:16,390 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: people to be influenced by others who may be wanting 265 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,610 Speaker 2: to really lead them astray related to this is that 266 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:25,850 Speaker 2: many of us, including our young people, 267 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,770 Speaker 2: they are increasingly exposed to overseas developments, including global conflicts 268 00:13:31,780 --> 00:13:35,650 Speaker 2: and that impact sense of justice and spark outreach as 269 00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:39,300 Speaker 2: a result of youth being the most ill equipped section 270 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: of our community to manage their emotions rationally, these young 271 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,900 Speaker 2: people are stumbling into inappropriate responses in terms of channeling 272 00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:49,670 Speaker 2: their anger, 273 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: their resentment and even their feeling of unhappiness. So this 274 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,740 Speaker 2: is where I think we need to come. It's not 275 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: always about religion, but they also have this sense of unhappiness, 276 00:13:58,650 --> 00:14:01,209 Speaker 2: grievances that we also need to look at. You think 277 00:14:01,210 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: about it also, you know, 15, 16 year old, you're 278 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,370 Speaker 2: kind of just growing up, you know, you're still figuring 279 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:09,250 Speaker 2: life out, figuring out what to do what not to do, 280 00:14:09,250 --> 00:14:10,939 Speaker 2: you know? So you're still learning a lot on your 281 00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: own and then suddenly you have this whole buffet spread 282 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,309 Speaker 2: of things to choose from and everything looks so exciting, 283 00:14:17,309 --> 00:14:19,620 Speaker 2: you know, So it is hard for them to 284 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,190 Speaker 2: how do we save our youth because we want to 285 00:14:22,190 --> 00:14:24,950 Speaker 2: get them before they get into this state. Right, I 286 00:14:24,950 --> 00:14:28,380 Speaker 2: would like to give another perspective. Today's we always mentioned 287 00:14:28,390 --> 00:14:32,580 Speaker 2: that youth radicalization is the problem that young people, but 288 00:14:32,580 --> 00:14:36,270 Speaker 2: it's actually a reflection of the problems of our own society. 289 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,670 Speaker 2: We have to also understand that how the entire gaming 290 00:14:39,670 --> 00:14:42,700 Speaker 2: and social media platform works as we know that there 291 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: are incentives for the creators of this gaming and social 292 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,660 Speaker 2: media platform to find ways to keep 293 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:52,979 Speaker 2: The users online. So for this purpose it makes sense 294 00:14:52,980 --> 00:14:56,910 Speaker 2: for the software designers to look into the things that 295 00:14:56,910 --> 00:14:59,550 Speaker 2: kind of will keep the users looking at the screen. 296 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,479 Speaker 2: So for example, a young boy is watching a factual 297 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: video 9 11 298 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,500 Speaker 2: and then the platform will then recommend more videos that 299 00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:12,030 Speaker 2: goddamn selecting each one more extreme. And outrageous algorithms will 300 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: do that. Exactly. There are several factors that we need 301 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,100 Speaker 2: to look into is not one dimension only to this problem. 302 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:26,700 Speaker 2: Are you looking for ways to make your money work 303 00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: harder for you or need tips on saving investing and 304 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: making financial decisions join me. Andrea hang on money talks. 305 00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:37,940 Speaker 2: Ciena's top personal finance podcast 306 00:15:38,090 --> 00:15:42,100 Speaker 2: from investment basics to the fire movement and legacy planning. 307 00:15:42,110 --> 00:15:45,860 Speaker 2: Money talks, looks at financial trends and stories that matter 308 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:49,790 Speaker 2: to you. Check out our complete playlist on the CNN app, 309 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,700 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow 310 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:57,980 Speaker 2: us or subscribe for new episodes every Tuesday. 311 00:16:02,620 --> 00:16:04,700 Speaker 2: So it sounds like in a lot of these platforms 312 00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: and these games there's a lack of content moderation. Nicholas 313 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,300 Speaker 2: are these platforms actually less regulated. Should there be more 314 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:13,730 Speaker 2: sort of moderation? We 315 00:16:13,730 --> 00:16:16,490 Speaker 1: can all agree that because game companies that create these 316 00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:20,110 Speaker 1: games and these games become a platform for for these 317 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: conversations and relationships and potential backgrounds for radicalization that the 318 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,220 Speaker 1: game publishers should do more. But the reality is that 319 00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:30,850 Speaker 1: they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, thousands 320 00:16:30,850 --> 00:16:31,740 Speaker 1: of games are being lost 321 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: every month. They all vary in how they designed to 322 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,030 Speaker 1: sort of gameplay and obviously some of them have more 323 00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:41,740 Speaker 1: resources than the others to your point about regulation right 324 00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:44,270 Speaker 1: now there is little to no incentive for them to 325 00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:46,610 Speaker 1: do any form of moderation. They are incentivized by having 326 00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: more people play the game, more people coming to enjoy. 327 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,700 Speaker 1: So for those who are maybe more mature in how 328 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: they think about it, they realized that if if these 329 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,860 Speaker 1: conversations are unhealthy it would affect 330 00:16:56,070 --> 00:16:57,750 Speaker 1: the experience of the game and they will pay for 331 00:16:57,750 --> 00:17:01,310 Speaker 1: some resources to moderate the experience. But otherwise there might 332 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,220 Speaker 1: be a need for regulation or a stick. 333 00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:04,870 Speaker 2: But at the same time you're saying there's really no 334 00:17:04,869 --> 00:17:07,500 Speaker 2: incentive from them because it limits the number of people 335 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:09,620 Speaker 2: they have, it means kid may come in and say 336 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:11,939 Speaker 2: oh no fun, you know everything is censored, 337 00:17:12,130 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 2: there is some government regulation, certain content and sites are 338 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,370 Speaker 2: blocked out but it will never be full proof. So 339 00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:20,340 Speaker 2: are we looking at more stricter policing overall. Omar what 340 00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:21,100 Speaker 2: do you think? There are 341 00:17:21,100 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: many global associations that actually are looking into this at 342 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,450 Speaker 1: the moment. And even within the major 343 00:17:27,460 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: gaming platforms, For example, if you look at the global 344 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,710 Speaker 1: internet forum for countering terrorism, Discord is already a member 345 00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:37,180 Speaker 1: of G. I. F. C. D. But the thing is 346 00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:40,340 Speaker 1: that there are so many new games being uploaded so 347 00:17:40,340 --> 00:17:42,790 Speaker 1: often there are many smaller players out there. 348 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: How are you going to regulate all of them even 349 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,990 Speaker 1: if they want to be regulated and to prevent bad 350 00:17:48,990 --> 00:17:52,899 Speaker 1: actors using their platforms, they may not have the capacity 351 00:17:52,910 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: to regulate their smaller platforms. So this is the big 352 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: challenge that we are facing. And sometimes one of the 353 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,540 Speaker 1: main things that we need to do is educate the 354 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:02,980 Speaker 1: whole community per se. 355 00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:06,899 Speaker 1: You need good ambassadors within gamers, that is the only 356 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: way we can go about this gamers policing gamers, it's 357 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,580 Speaker 1: not just law enforcement. Can you imagine that a community 358 00:18:13,580 --> 00:18:16,220 Speaker 1: of gamers who are out there to ensure that they 359 00:18:16,220 --> 00:18:18,070 Speaker 1: can keep the good things about their sport 360 00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: align? So okay, I hear what you're saying. So in 361 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,010 Speaker 2: a way we're seeing regulation policing 362 00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:25,850 Speaker 2: can only do so much, but we must look at 363 00:18:25,859 --> 00:18:27,570 Speaker 2: how we can look out for each other. And I 364 00:18:27,570 --> 00:18:30,170 Speaker 2: guess as you mentioned within the gaming community, I play 365 00:18:30,170 --> 00:18:33,450 Speaker 2: this game called ultimate frisbee where we are self ruled 366 00:18:33,450 --> 00:18:35,859 Speaker 2: in the sense that we self referee the game, every 367 00:18:35,859 --> 00:18:38,369 Speaker 2: player is a referee in that sense and there's a 368 00:18:38,369 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 2: certain integrity that comes from that, you know, can this 369 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,290 Speaker 2: exist online in such a platform? Do you think the kids, 370 00:18:44,290 --> 00:18:46,129 Speaker 2: I mean they're quite young as well. Are they mature 371 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:47,060 Speaker 2: enough to take on such a 372 00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:48,620 Speaker 1: roll? I'm gonna need to depend 373 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,180 Speaker 1: Nicholas or this one because you have all kinds of 374 00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:53,730 Speaker 1: youth profiles coming in. Nicholas, what do you think based 375 00:18:53,730 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: on the youth that you've seen in the gaming industry. 376 00:18:55,609 --> 00:18:58,650 Speaker 1: I definitely agree in the direction that the doctor has 377 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:01,550 Speaker 1: suggested and recommended that you should take the part that 378 00:19:01,550 --> 00:19:04,609 Speaker 1: made me pause just kind of remembering that some of 379 00:19:04,609 --> 00:19:07,379 Speaker 1: these games for example, like Minecraft the profile, the games 380 00:19:07,380 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: are like really, really young and some of them don't 381 00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:14,129 Speaker 1: even know how to brush their teeth before they sleep 382 00:19:14,670 --> 00:19:19,460 Speaker 1: my own kids, right? Just to kind of like to 383 00:19:19,460 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: educate them to say that they have to self regulate 384 00:19:21,930 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: in a sense. Yeah, it depends. I think it will 385 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: work better for some games or some platforms more than 386 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:26,750 Speaker 1: others 387 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,669 Speaker 2: For every new game that exists. Perhaps if there was 388 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: a regulation to say that you must have a moderator 389 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,090 Speaker 2: who is at least 15 years old who has taken 390 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: a certificate in, I don't know, I mean 391 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: it sounds pretty far fetched, but basically we're teaching the 392 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,980 Speaker 2: kids how to be more responsible with what they're doing online. 393 00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:47,470 Speaker 2: It's 394 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: not so far fetched, it's just that the existing countries 395 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: like china and more in the sense that they're kind 396 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,699 Speaker 1: of tougher regulation in china, all the games have to 397 00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,130 Speaker 1: have a publishing license and then you cannot play more 398 00:19:59,130 --> 00:20:01,980 Speaker 1: than two hours when you speak to regulators in other 399 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: jurisdictions section, you do the same. They're like, oh, but 400 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,609 Speaker 1: you know, there are thousands of games being launched every 401 00:20:06,609 --> 00:20:07,379 Speaker 1: week and as 402 00:20:07,390 --> 00:20:09,570 Speaker 1: the regulator in order to regulate the game, you actually 403 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: have to play all the games and that takes a 404 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: lot of resources, That's the challenge, right? We have to 405 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: stop chasing the platforms because today it's roadblocks tomorrow it's 406 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,450 Speaker 1: something else. And tomorrow we'll start talking about the metaverse 407 00:20:22,450 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about something else again. So it's 408 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: a more holistic approach that we need to take at 409 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,590 Speaker 1: this point with regards to the community's youth, their relationship 410 00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:33,899 Speaker 1: with their families, that's going to be the best defense 411 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:34,530 Speaker 1: we're going to have. 412 00:20:34,740 --> 00:20:38,149 Speaker 2: It's a whole of society approach. What Omar mentioned, my 413 00:20:38,150 --> 00:20:41,510 Speaker 2: take on this state is that regulation is a monumental task. 414 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,770 Speaker 2: What we need to do right now is to prioritize 415 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: programs that educate internet users to deal with internet content. 416 00:20:49,609 --> 00:20:53,250 Speaker 2: You know, family members, they need to be informed about 417 00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:57,450 Speaker 2: the indicators and telltale signs of radicalization. The parents in 418 00:20:57,450 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: this 419 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: three cases, they did not know that their Children are 420 00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:04,340 Speaker 2: on the virtue of radicalization and have been radicalized unless 421 00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:07,219 Speaker 2: they're aware about the indicators tell tale signs, then they 422 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:09,750 Speaker 2: can intervene at the early stage. So that brings us 423 00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:12,230 Speaker 2: to that point, you know, how do we look out 424 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: for the signs? What are the red flags that we 425 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,490 Speaker 2: need to be aware of? Because in this case, I 426 00:21:16,490 --> 00:21:18,580 Speaker 2: think one of the kids, some of his friends thought 427 00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: he was just a bit weird, you know, so 428 00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:22,210 Speaker 2: so they kind of just left them alone and to 429 00:21:22,210 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 2: be fair in every school there will always be a 430 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,109 Speaker 2: few kids who seem a bit weird, but they don't 431 00:21:27,109 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 2: end up becoming radicalized. So how do you differentiate? So 432 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,580 Speaker 2: some of the important warning signs of radicalization that family 433 00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:38,970 Speaker 2: members should look out, for example, including number one, justifying 434 00:21:38,970 --> 00:21:42,100 Speaker 2: the use of violence to different costs and also expressing 435 00:21:42,109 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 2: intend to take 436 00:21:43,210 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: in acts of violence locally or overseas. The other telltale 437 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: signs include individuals idolizing terrorist personalities, expressing support for groups 438 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,470 Speaker 2: like ISIS frequenting radical websites. Parents can also detect the 439 00:21:58,470 --> 00:22:02,550 Speaker 2: change of behavior in their child's character. So all these, 440 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: I don't think parents they know that they should be aware, 441 00:22:06,190 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: not only monitoring the online activities of Children, but to 442 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,310 Speaker 2: be informed on these indicators and signs of radicalization, but 443 00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:17,810 Speaker 2: the science also are not such distinct signs. And you know, 444 00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: as kids grow up 445 00:22:19,109 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: as teenagers, there will be good days, bad days and 446 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,420 Speaker 2: for the parents, even if they spot something then what, 447 00:22:24,430 --> 00:22:28,090 Speaker 2: who should they turn to if they discover or they 448 00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:32,220 Speaker 2: found out that their loved ones on the verge of 449 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:35,110 Speaker 2: radicalization and in the early stage, I think they need 450 00:22:35,109 --> 00:22:39,790 Speaker 2: to intervene by first giving advice, advising them and stop 451 00:22:39,790 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: them if they succeed to do this. I think that's fine. 452 00:22:43,050 --> 00:22:45,390 Speaker 2: But the issue if they are not able to do 453 00:22:45,390 --> 00:22:47,969 Speaker 2: this and these things continue, the parents know 454 00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:50,340 Speaker 2: to get some help and this could be, you know, 455 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:54,330 Speaker 2: from religious leaders and teachers or even if things seems 456 00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:57,850 Speaker 2: to get worse, parents can even call the R. R. G. Okay. 457 00:22:57,859 --> 00:22:59,870 Speaker 2: And we can come in to see how we can 458 00:22:59,869 --> 00:23:02,990 Speaker 2: help all these individuals. Some some may be afraid because 459 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:05,490 Speaker 2: they're saying if I report that my kids will get arrested, 460 00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:08,180 Speaker 2: get detained, you know? But I'm sure you can tell 461 00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:10,980 Speaker 2: them that it's better to seek help first before reaching 462 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:14,020 Speaker 2: that stage. Right? We can understand that if they are 463 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:16,850 Speaker 2: kind of afraid to report to I. S. D. 464 00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:19,710 Speaker 2: But they can come to community groups like the R. R. G. 465 00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:23,090 Speaker 2: And we can help them with reporting to I. S. D. 466 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:26,619 Speaker 2: Because we believe that these individuals they're very early stage 467 00:23:26,619 --> 00:23:29,580 Speaker 2: of radicalization and we can do something to help them 468 00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:33,139 Speaker 2: overcome their issues. I think it's so important for the 469 00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:36,010 Speaker 2: community around to to be aware as well. In fact 470 00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: actually it's also mainly boys. Right? Nicholas, maybe you can 471 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,170 Speaker 2: tell me a bit more about why is it simply 472 00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:43,729 Speaker 2: because more boys play these games? Not 473 00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:45,730 Speaker 1: necessarily. I mean the 474 00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:49,970 Speaker 1: some games have as many girls as boys, but sometimes 475 00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:52,979 Speaker 1: talking about identity, right? It seems that boys when they 476 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:55,810 Speaker 1: are on this online platforms playing games, they tend to 477 00:23:55,820 --> 00:23:59,740 Speaker 1: feel more powerful or need to have the digital online 478 00:23:59,740 --> 00:24:02,510 Speaker 1: identity that they are powerful and then they tend to 479 00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: then associate themselves with like, oh I am so and 480 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,070 Speaker 1: so by it's a hero and perhaps that's the part 481 00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:11,940 Speaker 1: that there's a bit more definitive. I don't normally see 482 00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:14,500 Speaker 1: like the ladies or girls in these games. 483 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:18,060 Speaker 1: The thing that behavior or having that kind of conversation 484 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:18,590 Speaker 1: says the boys 485 00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:21,420 Speaker 2: do. Okay. So what tips would you have out there 486 00:24:21,420 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: for parents? We all know our kids are on these platforms, 487 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: they're playing these games. How do I keep an eye 488 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,629 Speaker 2: on them? What should I be looking out for 489 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,530 Speaker 1: steve if I mean just cite a certain example from 490 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:33,670 Speaker 1: one of the case studies that was done some time 491 00:24:33,670 --> 00:24:35,790 Speaker 1: back as a news article. If I'm not mistaken, it 492 00:24:35,790 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: was the new york times that published the story about 493 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:42,110 Speaker 1: the lonely young american and ISIS and what they mentioned 494 00:24:42,109 --> 00:24:43,510 Speaker 1: was that the recruiters, 495 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,470 Speaker 1: they know exactly what these individuals want and that's presence 496 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,820 Speaker 1: and I think this is something that parents should take 497 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:52,180 Speaker 1: note of. But even in their recruitment is not just 498 00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: one recruiter as a whole group of them. So that 499 00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:57,140 Speaker 1: any time of the day or night, someone is there 500 00:24:57,140 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: for them. And sometimes one of the things that they 501 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,540 Speaker 1: mention is when you get to know this person when 502 00:25:01,540 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: you're grooming them, don't talk about religion. First become a friend, 503 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: be a friend, be there for them. One of the 504 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,090 Speaker 1: things that we need to notice is when you are 505 00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:13,670 Speaker 1: starting to isolate and they are basically living in that 506 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,770 Speaker 1: ultimate reality 507 00:25:15,010 --> 00:25:17,350 Speaker 1: and they're basically getting cut off from parents, I'm not 508 00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:19,850 Speaker 1: going to also parenting advice, but one of the things 509 00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:21,899 Speaker 1: that we may not need to do is that be 510 00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:24,470 Speaker 1: present in some ways with that trust. If you can 511 00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:27,230 Speaker 1: do that in those small incremental ways that's going to 512 00:25:27,230 --> 00:25:29,990 Speaker 1: open doors for them to perhaps open up when they 513 00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:31,010 Speaker 1: need to. That is 514 00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:34,970 Speaker 2: exactly the strategy for our rehabilitation process that we have 515 00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:37,650 Speaker 2: to make friends with our clients first, not to talk 516 00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:40,370 Speaker 2: about religion and identify what are the issues that needs 517 00:25:40,369 --> 00:25:41,379 Speaker 2: to be dealt with. 518 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:45,930 Speaker 2: After building this report and cordial relationship with our clients 519 00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:48,649 Speaker 2: and then we try to attempt to address the real 520 00:25:48,650 --> 00:25:52,770 Speaker 2: concerns or issues that the detainees have. Well gentlemen, thanks 521 00:25:52,770 --> 00:25:54,570 Speaker 2: so much for for your thoughts on this. I mean 522 00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:56,340 Speaker 2: it really sounds like as you mentioned, I think the 523 00:25:56,340 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: key to reaching out especially to our own kids is 524 00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:02,330 Speaker 2: well for one we gotta remember stop lecturing them like parents, 525 00:26:02,340 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: we need to establish a relationship where our kids feel 526 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: that they can open up to us, they can 527 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:10,570 Speaker 2: tell us things, they can relate to us because as 528 00:26:10,570 --> 00:26:12,010 Speaker 2: a young person who is still in the midst of 529 00:26:12,010 --> 00:26:13,990 Speaker 2: learning about life, I mean it's hard for them to 530 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:16,429 Speaker 2: make sense of who they are, where they're at in 531 00:26:16,430 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 2: life and they need someone to talk to. It's just 532 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,220 Speaker 2: that very often the parent doesn't come to mind, right, 533 00:26:21,220 --> 00:26:23,780 Speaker 2: because we've built that kind of relationship with them. So 534 00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:26,270 Speaker 2: if not us then maybe they need to have a 535 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,950 Speaker 2: close mentors, a close family friend, someone they can turn to, 536 00:26:29,950 --> 00:26:31,580 Speaker 2: that they can confide in and then 537 00:26:31,830 --> 00:26:34,790 Speaker 2: I guess that will help give them an opportunity to, 538 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,540 Speaker 2: you know, let off some steam if they need to 539 00:26:36,540 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: and to, you know, get them on the right track 540 00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:41,100 Speaker 2: at an early stage because as we all know with 541 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,139 Speaker 2: technology today is is far 542 00:26:43,330 --> 00:26:46,530 Speaker 2: less straightforward and it's so much easier to be isolated 543 00:26:46,540 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 2: and lonely without anyone really knowing about it. Well, thank 544 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 2: you all for joining us on this chat today. Dr 545 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 2: ali Dr Omar Nicholas, thank you for coming and sharing 546 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,220 Speaker 2: your thoughts on this. I think my takeaway from our 547 00:26:58,220 --> 00:27:00,300 Speaker 2: chat today, you just got to keep the conversation going. 548 00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,510 Speaker 2: The little chats with the kids about what they're up to, 549 00:27:02,510 --> 00:27:04,780 Speaker 2: what games they're playing. I try to jump in and 550 00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:06,570 Speaker 2: play with my son once in a while, you know, 551 00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:08,860 Speaker 2: at least I get some sense of what he's up to. 552 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,869 Speaker 2: As they say, I guess you got to try and 553 00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:13,930 Speaker 2: stay woke because if you're that friend and you hear 554 00:27:13,930 --> 00:27:16,540 Speaker 2: something at least you can act on it. Well we 555 00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:19,449 Speaker 2: hope you've enjoyed the conversation and that you've learned something 556 00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:23,230 Speaker 2: from our discussion today. The team behind heart of the 557 00:27:23,230 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 2: matter is Jacqueline chan, Joanne chan Tiffany and and Christina 558 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,350 Speaker 2: robert and I'm Stephen chow, I'll see you next week