Speaker 1: This is a CNA podcast.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Climate Conversations. I'm Yasmin Y your guest
Speaker 1: host today and I'm sitting in for Julie Yu, who's
Speaker 1: normally the big star of this show. Julie is away
Speaker 1: on a well deserved break.
Speaker 1: Now, if you've been feeling hot under the collar, like
Speaker 1: I have because of searing temperatures here in Singapore and
Speaker 1: around the region, you may have to brace yourselves for
Speaker 1: something even worse. The haze might be back.
Speaker 2: Singapore's interagency haze task force is preparing for possible haze ahead. Now,
Speaker 2: that's as drier and warmer weather is expected to persist
Speaker 2: from next month through to October.
Speaker 1: So let me take you back
Speaker 1: to 2015. Singapore was choked with smock. Remember that guys?
Speaker 1: It was as bad as to have schools be shut
Speaker 1: and even mcdonald's the usual trusty delivery wasn't actually sending
Speaker 1: those nuggets that she like to your door because they
Speaker 1: wanted to protect their delivery guys. Well, just last week,
Speaker 1: the Met Service sounded the Hayes alarm telling all of
Speaker 1: us to
Speaker 1: get our masks and air purifiers ready for those of
Speaker 1: us who remember how bad it was in 2015 and
Speaker 1: then again, in 2019. The question on our minds will
Speaker 1: this year be just as bad with me to answer
Speaker 1: that and to talk about everything else. Hayworth is Associate
Speaker 1: Professor Simon Tate. He is the chairman of the Singapore
Speaker 1: Institute of International Affairs Professor. Welcome to the climate conversations.
Speaker 1: How
Speaker 1: are you today? Surprised by that big haze announcement in Singapore.
Speaker 1: Sadly not, we've been expecting it because all our research
Speaker 1: shows quite similar signs. It's going to be drier than
Speaker 1: the last three years, that's for sure. And now could
Speaker 1: it be a full blow? And Nino predictions have gone
Speaker 1: from about 60% just a month ago to about 80%.
Speaker 1: The weather is really in God's control. It's not for
Speaker 1: human beings, but there are things we can do but
Speaker 1: governments have to be center of action.
Speaker 1: Ok. Now, the thing is we are a little confused as,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of regular people because I mean, we've
Speaker 1: been reading that, yeah, there's El Nino but then suddenly
Speaker 1: it's connected to haze and then it becomes a bit
Speaker 1: of an alarm and then you look out the window,
Speaker 1: the skies are really clear. Air quality seems fine.
Speaker 1: People are even being asked like, are you going to
Speaker 1: be stuck up in 95 masks? Not really, not many
Speaker 1: people are perturbed. So this is all a little sudden,
Speaker 1: I have to say for the average person. Yes, it is.
Speaker 1: I think for the average person, the weather it seems
Speaker 1: like here and now. But of course, there is always
Speaker 1: an effort to look ahead.
Speaker 1: So the good outcome for any early warning is not
Speaker 1: to have the problem. Now, if you check it more carefully,
Speaker 1: we've really seen warning signs already emerged. It's isolated problems
Speaker 1: like the heat spells, we all feel that, that it
Speaker 1: creates drier weather and if it is a prolonged and
Speaker 1: deeper drought, then there could be fires and there have
Speaker 1: been fires in our region and heat spells. And up
Speaker 1: north in Indo China, Thailand, they've had fires and there
Speaker 1: have been warning signs of fires. Now in Malaysia, not
Speaker 1: yet Indonesia, but
Speaker 1: the Malaysian Minister has said there is a risk of haze.
Speaker 1: And in Indonesia, President Jo Kui has also sent an
Speaker 1: early signal to warn his local officials in the areas
Speaker 1: just south of us that he will not tolerate Pfizer haze.
Speaker 1: So our region is likely to experience a much drier
Speaker 1: weather in the coming months, not immediately in the next
Speaker 1: few weeks, but in the coming months, it will deepen
Speaker 1: and that's where the risk will be. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like it's creeping closer and closer to Singapore. You were
Speaker 1: talking about Indochina and then it seems to be creeping
Speaker 1: south and
Speaker 1: does come back to Singapore this year. How do you
Speaker 1: suppose it will compare with the choking haze of 2015
Speaker 1: or even 2019? Well, I think there is some relatively
Speaker 1: good news in 2015 in 2013 longer back there weren't
Speaker 1: really strong systems in place to try to suppress or
Speaker 1: even better, still prevent fires while whether possible El Nino
Speaker 1: is the main worry. It's not fatalistic. Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are things that men, women
Speaker 1: operations and governments can do and so there is a
Speaker 1: prospect that it won't be as bad as 2015, but
Speaker 1: that's not complacency. That's really a call for action that
Speaker 1: the systems that we put in place has to be
Speaker 1: double checked to make sure they're working. It's like any
Speaker 1: fire prevention, right? Once in a while, you got to
Speaker 1: pick up those fire canisters and see, is there stuff
Speaker 1: still in there in case the fire goes off and
Speaker 1: that's kind of how we need to approach it. Now,
Speaker 1: it's good that the government of Indonesia, Malaysia and our
Speaker 1: own all take this seriously. All right. And you talked
Speaker 1: about the system
Speaker 1: systems in place. Do you mind going through them with us?
Speaker 1: And how often are they really checked? And what really are?
Speaker 1: I don't know the key points to understand whether they
Speaker 1: still work or not. Yes, I think there's always some
Speaker 1: skepticism about how thoroughly any government can implement a decision.
Speaker 1: And of course, when the case of Indonesia will be
Speaker 1: such a large bowling archipelago, it's going to be hard
Speaker 1: to imagine that a rule set in Jakarta in some
Speaker 1: ministry can really have effect on the ground. And
Speaker 1: with this year elections coming up, there have been records
Speaker 1: in the past that local officials will tend to let
Speaker 1: small holders and small companies kind of clear more land
Speaker 1: as a kind of bonus to them to curry favor.
Speaker 1: But I must credit the Indonesian government and especially President
Speaker 1: Jokowi for doing things that nobody has before. In fact,
Speaker 1: stopping the haze ending the fires for the sake of
Speaker 1: Indonesian people is really a hallmark of his administration these
Speaker 1: last few years. That's one reason why we've had kind
Speaker 1: of a blue sky amnesia. We've forgotten
Speaker 1: what the haze was like way back when I just
Speaker 1: wanted to add in as well. I mean, he once
Speaker 1: famously put out, I suppose almost his phone number personally
Speaker 1: for people to report if there was a haze situation
Speaker 1: and he talked about how embarrassing it was that his
Speaker 1: country might have been the cause of this situation. Yes,
Speaker 1: he's actually been to fire regions during the fires. And
Speaker 1: he's understood that when fires happen in Indonesia, it's actually
Speaker 1: the Indonesians who suffer the most. We like second hand smokers.
Speaker 1: It's bad, but it's not like being right next to
Speaker 1: the fire in fear of your life. And
Speaker 1: people Indonesia have died, Children have died from past bad
Speaker 1: fires in 2019 and 2015. Now this is the last
Speaker 1: few 18 months or so of his government and really
Speaker 1: his changes, I hope will outlive him and really be
Speaker 1: that legacy, for example, the president actually oversees law enforcement platforms.
Speaker 1: You know, he has almost daily call with a lot
Speaker 1: of the military and provincial officials outside Jakarta to make
Speaker 1: sure this is actually happening. Secondly, his Minister for Environment
Speaker 1: and Forest
Speaker 1: City, no Baa has actually investigated and taken legal action
Speaker 1: against the bad companies linked to the fire. So really
Speaker 1: compared to the past, people are being prosecuted institutionally, Indonesia
Speaker 1: has also created things like the Peatland and Mangrove restoration Agency.
Speaker 1: Now that sounds like a green gang. But really a
Speaker 1: lot of the worst haze comes from fires on peatland.
Speaker 1: They kind of different kind of soil that has a
Speaker 1: way of small rain and issuing a lot of soot
Speaker 1: haze and of course CO2 gasses,
Speaker 1: but you talked about elections coming up as well. If
Speaker 1: President Jokowi has done very well, should we be concerned
Speaker 1: that should there be an administration change? Things in the
Speaker 1: future might be a little bit questionable. Well, I think if,
Speaker 1: when it changes, because President Jokowi has run out of
Speaker 1: his two terms, there will be lots of changes and
Speaker 1: this is one area to watch, but I'm confident that
Speaker 1: Indonesia has made pledges internationally, not just to ASEAN in
Speaker 1: the region, but
Speaker 1: in global terms, its Paris Agreement on climate change have
Speaker 1: really made Indonesia pledge against deforestation against increasing its CO2 emissions.
Speaker 1: And so these pledges internationally will create a pressure on
Speaker 1: any person coming in to fulfill more than that Indonesia
Speaker 1: has really shifted from seeing, you know, let's use the
Speaker 1: land no matter how we clear it to let's not
Speaker 1: clear the land, if possible, let's produce more crops, more
Speaker 1: products
Speaker 1: activity. So it's deforestation rates have actually come down compared
Speaker 1: to like Brazil. This is a great accomplishment. And additionally,
Speaker 1: you can see opportunities for investment. You know, we all
Speaker 1: talk about carbon credits conservation projects. Now, if Indonesia can
Speaker 1: conserve projects and improve the world, it's sequestering carbon locking
Speaker 1: it in, there's money to be made. There are a
Speaker 1: number of projects already running in Kalimantan, which used to
Speaker 1: be very
Speaker 1: fire prone and these projects are successfully conserving land, helping
Speaker 1: local communities and of course, selling carbon credits to international companies,
Speaker 1: Shell and a number of other really global players. Well,
Speaker 1: like you say, it's possibly his lasting legacy and hopefully
Speaker 1: something that will be brought forward to future administrations and generations.
Speaker 1: But Indonesia's side, let's talk about every other country here
Speaker 1: in ASEAN. I mean, we've got Malaysia, they are
Speaker 1: spots in Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar as well. How close
Speaker 1: are we to getting a regional understanding and a regional
Speaker 1: ability to work together to fight haze? Yes, I think
Speaker 1: first we have tended to see the southern haze which
Speaker 1: we were talking about mainly from Indonesia and sometimes from
Speaker 1: East Malaysia, separately from the northeast Asian haze coming from Myanmar,
Speaker 1: Thailand and that in the Chinese area.
Speaker 1: Now there was a plan after 2020 for haze free ASEAN.
Speaker 1: And I guess because we had so little haze in
Speaker 1: the last few years, that's gone a bit quiet now
Speaker 1: with 2023. So we kind of need a new plan.
Speaker 1: One very simple thing is to make a very uniform
Speaker 1: system of measurement so that we know what levels of
Speaker 1: haze we're seeing across the board. And how far away
Speaker 1: are we from that? Like any
Speaker 1: open negotiation, there will be some officials, they need to
Speaker 1: work through details that we'll have to see. And I
Speaker 1: admit that sometimes if I'm Indonesian, I always feel that
Speaker 1: I'm in the bad boy box. So we've got to
Speaker 1: find a way from moving from finger pointing to kind
Speaker 1: of cooperation. I don't mean to mean soft cooperation, I mean,
Speaker 1: really practical work together and that's still take us beyond government.
Speaker 1: I think one of the major factors that's improved and
Speaker 1: gives me hope really it will be about the companies,
Speaker 1: corporate behavior is critical, like in anything to do with
Speaker 1: climate and environment, governments can do their share, they must,
Speaker 1: citizens must. But Corporates who run the plantation sector who
Speaker 1: buy and sell the goods that come out of the
Speaker 1: crops associated with the haze, they have to do their
Speaker 1: part too.
Speaker 1: There was a time in the middle of last year
Speaker 1: when it seemed that the China we are familiar with
Speaker 1: was a completely different place when the rest of the
Speaker 1: world moved on from the COVID-19 pandemic. As many as
Speaker 1: 300 million Chinese people were under some form of a
Speaker 1: mandatory lockdown.
Speaker 1: There were only two things on my mind to find
Speaker 1: food and to not go crazy.
Speaker 1: Then suddenly the people decided to take things into their
Speaker 1: own hands.
Speaker 1: For the first time in more than 30 years, protests
Speaker 1: swept through China and just like that zero cove ended.
Speaker 1: Join me. We do for a look back at the
Speaker 1: extraordinary year in China and hear how it might have
Speaker 1: changed the country for good.
Speaker 1: Catch a red wall inside China's Zero COVID World A
Speaker 1: two part podcast series by CN A. It's available now
Speaker 1: on the CN A and me listen apps, Spotify, Apple
Speaker 1: and Google podcasts.
Speaker 1: Some people though say that the story of getting the
Speaker 1: measurement standardized is actually low hanging fruit other than corporations,
Speaker 1: other than what the government must do urgently. What about people?
Speaker 1: How can they enforce change? Do you think? Well, first
Speaker 1: I have no problems with low hanging fruit. That's probably
Speaker 1: the right person. And before they go back on the tree,
Speaker 1: we should eat them because that is a way of
Speaker 1: really creating that sense of
Speaker 1: win and cooperation. And I would say that citizens and
Speaker 1: companies come together, you know, I mean, why are companies
Speaker 1: behaving better because consumers demanded they are seeing consumer boycotts
Speaker 1: especially in the West. But when we had the haze here,
Speaker 1: some years ago, there were products there was a toilet
Speaker 1: paper boycott, wasn't there. Yeah. And NTUC, one of the
Speaker 1: biggest chains took it off the shelves. This had an impact.
Speaker 1: The companies protested their innocence but they then
Speaker 1: had to make forward looking plans and pledges that this
Speaker 1: won't happen again. And by and large, the soy and
Speaker 1: I have learned to work with these companies not to
Speaker 1: let them green wash us, but we need to look
Speaker 1: at their plans, their commitments of money for firefighting, fire prevention.
Speaker 1: We've also been out to some of these vast plantations.
Speaker 1: The plantations are size of Singapore, one plantation and the
Speaker 1: villages that around them depend so much on the economy
Speaker 1: that's created by these plantations
Speaker 1: in Singapore. As an urban city. We have to understand
Speaker 1: the perspective and then try to cooperate with them, not
Speaker 1: to excuse them, but it hurts them as well. So
Speaker 1: I've met villagers who are really sad when this happen
Speaker 1: because we can lock up ourselves. We can buy the
Speaker 1: N95 mask. We can have air purifiers. These guys walk
Speaker 1: around the streets with handkerchiefs over their faces. So it's
Speaker 1: really a problem
Speaker 1: that motivate people from all walks to work together. That's
Speaker 1: why we've been working with a lot of NGO S
Speaker 1: in Indonesia, the non government organizations that try to defend
Speaker 1: the citizens rights. Indonesia. Yeah, it's nice to know you've
Speaker 1: been to the oil plantations. I just want to bring
Speaker 1: up the fact that the Eu has agreed on a
Speaker 1: new regulation which bans the sale of palm oil. Now,
Speaker 1: the commodities linked to deforest
Speaker 1: and it's Indonesia and Malaysia that suffer the most when
Speaker 1: it comes to this. This is just one sort of
Speaker 1: issue really to complicate this whole story of haze, isn't it?
Speaker 1: It is. In fact, that issue will be something we
Speaker 1: are discussing at our conference on the ninth of June
Speaker 1: because we're bringing people down from the up commission to
Speaker 1: really help explain this imposition of European views on our region.
Speaker 1: The Malaysians and Indonesian governments have protested it. But partly
Speaker 1: I hoping that a positive dialogue can emerge out of
Speaker 1: this because actually the European rules really talk about deforestation
Speaker 1: after 2020. And as I said earlier, most of Indonesia
Speaker 1: today is not seeing deforestation anymore. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: signaling a problem that's already passed. And therefore even the
Speaker 1: Europeans have been accused of colonial mentality, et cetera. I
Speaker 1: think the Indonesians and Malaysian actually are doing it for
Speaker 1: their own sake, their own people. I'm hoping that this
Speaker 1: dialogue which has been rather loud and nationalistic will in
Speaker 1: Singapore take a step forward to becoming something more cooperative
Speaker 1: and understanding of each other. All right, I want to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about technology. It's very clear that
Speaker 1: back in 2015 when we were hit with the haze,
Speaker 1: we weren't prepared. And then now it's still the story
Speaker 1: of N95 masks and air filters. Do you think technology
Speaker 1: has actually progressed from then to now. I mean, what
Speaker 1: new things can we do as average people to fight
Speaker 1: the haze other than the masks and to try and
Speaker 1: air filters? Well, that's the thing, you know, just like
Speaker 1: if the climate change in the world happens, there's just
Speaker 1: so much the individual citizen can do. So I think
Speaker 1: the answer is really to act proactively to prevent the
Speaker 1: haze and their technology has helped today, we publish a
Speaker 1: haze outlook every year for the last five years. And
Speaker 1: we're not just sticking our finger in the wind to
Speaker 1: see what the weather is, the weather prediction and the
Speaker 1: rainfall calculation and the monitoring of plantations and peatlands. This
Speaker 1: has all been improved by remote sensing.
Speaker 1: There are attempts to move the big plantation companies to
Speaker 1: using drones to monitor their lands for fires but also
Speaker 1: dry conditions and to act preventively where some of the
Speaker 1: concern is, of course, the small holders, they don't have
Speaker 1: the resources, they will be much more fire at risk.
Speaker 1: And in between them, there are middle sized companies which
Speaker 1: should take on these new duties and new measures, but
Speaker 1: they're kind of not bothering. There's always some good companies
Speaker 1: and in the millions
Speaker 1: people who do palm oil and pulp and paper, they're
Speaker 1: going to be some bad companies. And I think that's
Speaker 1: where the risk of the El Nino comes in because
Speaker 1: even if you're a good company and you take care
Speaker 1: of your own land. If there are really dry conditions,
Speaker 1: a fire could start elsewhere and jump into your land
Speaker 1: and once it gets going, they are very, very hard
Speaker 1: to stop. Yeah, I remember that phenomenon from the nineties. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's nice to know of the new technologies and
Speaker 1: thank you for laying them out for us. You are
Speaker 1: really the wise man of Hayes. I mean, you've been
Speaker 1: working on solutions to tackle this since your son was
Speaker 1: born in 1997. Uh It's a bit of a journey.
Speaker 1: So what would you say are the biggest lessons for
Speaker 1: you through all this time in working on solutions to
Speaker 1: tackle haze? I think in a way, climate haze, they
Speaker 1: can't be the concerns of rich urban people. Like most
Speaker 1: of Singapore, we really have to be empathetic and cooperative.
Speaker 1: We live in a region of great contrast and we
Speaker 1: don't use our levers. Now we are a rich hub.
Speaker 1: We have influence on investment.
Speaker 1: We bring our finance over the last 56 years, the
Speaker 1: soI A and I helped write the first survey of
Speaker 1: green finance in Singapore, partly so that in this sector,
Speaker 1: the plantation companies are held accountable, not just by citizens,
Speaker 1: not buyers and sellers, but by their bankers today esg environment,
Speaker 1: social and governance issues are now part of the package
Speaker 1: of what we assess creditworthiness, not just can you make money,
Speaker 1: but can you at the same time? Not do dumb
Speaker 1: stuff like burn your lands or cause harm to people
Speaker 1: through the haze. Just before we go, the young Children,
Speaker 1: the adults, the elderly who may be more susceptible to haze.
Speaker 1: Do you have a word or two? When it comes
Speaker 1: to advice about how to manage the haze and their
Speaker 1: conditions before things get serious for them? Well, it has been,
Speaker 1: I've been working on this issue a long time as
Speaker 1: a lawyer and chairman of the Institute, there are things
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know. One of them is medical.
Speaker 1: I think that's where people living in Singapore will have
Speaker 1: to tolerate the problem if it arises and listen to
Speaker 1: the government because the government
Speaker 1: has taken care of them. Now, I wish the same
Speaker 1: care could be given to the people in the islands
Speaker 1: south of us. If the fires break up there or
Speaker 1: in Kalimantan, I would rather be here than in those
Speaker 1: villages so close to the fire and without the hospital
Speaker 1: and other medical care that Singaporeans will get, like you say,
Speaker 1: handkerchiefs are their best defense. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: the caring concern and raising the whole story about how
Speaker 1: the story of Hayes is not just about us here
Speaker 1: in Pore, but everywhere else you take care. Thank you man.
Speaker 1: Thanks as ever to my guest associate Professor Simon Tay
Speaker 1: and to you for tuning in to the climate conversations.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode. Do remember you've got
Speaker 1: to subscribe if you'd like to hear more and if
Speaker 1: you like this podcast and that's when you'll also know
Speaker 1: when a new episode drops, you can find
Speaker 1: nes climate and sustainability coverage online at Cne dot Asia.
Speaker 1: And of course, it's not just me, I'm here just
Speaker 1: doing the talking, but the team behind this podcast, Joanne Chancy,
Speaker 1: Jacqueline Chan and Christina Robert. Thank you guys. I'm Yasmine
Speaker 1: signing off.