1 00:00:03,150 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:10,609 --> 00:00:14,119 Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to the Work It podcast with Tiffany and Gerald. 3 00:00:14,409 --> 00:00:17,250 Speaker 1: Last month, we talked a little bit about high pressure 4 00:00:17,250 --> 00:00:20,770 Speaker 1: jobs with a CNA Today colleague, but after that podcast 5 00:00:20,770 --> 00:00:23,610 Speaker 1: went out, I thought we really need to talk about 6 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:27,559 Speaker 1: how to cope with workplace stress. Each day at work, 7 00:00:27,649 --> 00:00:31,290 Speaker 1: I have multiple things on my to do list. Sometimes 8 00:00:31,290 --> 00:00:33,689 Speaker 1: I have to have lunch at my desk and once 9 00:00:33,689 --> 00:00:37,090 Speaker 1: I'm locked off, it's off to my second shift, my 10 00:00:37,090 --> 00:00:38,049 Speaker 1: life as a mom. 11 00:00:38,380 --> 00:00:42,049 Speaker 1: Now Gal, you manage your own time and business. What 12 00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:45,818 Speaker 1: are some stresses you typically face and do you try 13 00:00:45,819 --> 00:00:48,779 Speaker 1: and add in some, you know, me time or self-care 14 00:00:48,779 --> 00:00:51,340 Speaker 1: time in your day? Well, Tiffany, I'm with you on this. 15 00:00:51,459 --> 00:00:53,180 Speaker 1: For me, it's a lot about dealing with things in 16 00:00:53,180 --> 00:00:57,259 Speaker 1: my mind, right, about dealing with expectations from others and 17 00:00:57,259 --> 00:01:00,009 Speaker 1: of myself as well. I think being a business owner 18 00:01:00,009 --> 00:01:01,790 Speaker 1: plus the many other things that I do in my 19 00:01:01,790 --> 00:01:03,540 Speaker 1: other parts of my life like my church. 20 00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:07,169 Speaker 1: I do need to know how to prioritize and also 21 00:01:07,169 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: know what to react to and what not to react to. 22 00:01:10,069 --> 00:01:12,889 Speaker 1: It's definitely not easy and in Singapore, we often hear 23 00:01:12,889 --> 00:01:16,330 Speaker 1: many people struggle with like time and everyone is just 24 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:19,169 Speaker 1: in a perpetual busy mode. So this question about how 25 00:01:19,169 --> 00:01:21,529 Speaker 1: do we take care of ourselves when our work is 26 00:01:21,529 --> 00:01:22,330 Speaker 1: so demanding. 27 00:01:22,610 --> 00:01:24,989 Speaker 1: And do we really need like a lot of leave 28 00:01:24,989 --> 00:01:27,910 Speaker 1: brakes just to fully recharge? So today I'm really happy 29 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:31,300 Speaker 1: that we have two people whose jobs are extremely demanding, 30 00:01:31,430 --> 00:01:33,348 Speaker 1: but yet at the same time, they have found time 31 00:01:33,349 --> 00:01:35,949 Speaker 1: to put together a book on how small actions can 32 00:01:35,949 --> 00:01:38,989 Speaker 1: make a difference to their work, right? So with us, 33 00:01:39,019 --> 00:01:43,709 Speaker 1: we have Dr. Adaira Landry. She's an assistant professor at 34 00:01:43,709 --> 00:01:47,779 Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School and an emergency medicine physician at Brigham 35 00:01:47,779 --> 00:01:49,430 Speaker 1: and Women's Hospital. Hi, 36 00:01:49,589 --> 00:01:49,989 Speaker 2: thank you so much. 37 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:50,949 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. 38 00:01:51,209 --> 00:01:54,989 Speaker 1: And we also have Dr. Risa Luis, a professor of 39 00:01:54,989 --> 00:01:59,089 Speaker 1: emergency medicine at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. 40 00:01:59,349 --> 00:02:01,019 Speaker 2: Hi, it's great to be with you. 41 00:02:01,250 --> 00:02:03,389 Speaker 1: Thanks so much ladies for speaking to us all the 42 00:02:03,389 --> 00:02:05,949 Speaker 1: way from the US. Now both of you have worked 43 00:02:05,949 --> 00:02:09,660 Speaker 1: in emergency medicine and I'm sure when you were there, 44 00:02:10,350 --> 00:02:13,149 Speaker 1: everything felt pressing, right, because you are making life and 45 00:02:13,149 --> 00:02:17,228 Speaker 1: death decisions. Was there a turning point where you realized 46 00:02:17,229 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: that 47 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:20,779 Speaker 1: Your body was holding on to too much stress or 48 00:02:20,779 --> 00:02:23,649 Speaker 1: any indication there was something wrong. Ressa, 49 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:27,698 Speaker 2: I think in selecting emergency medicine, I knew that I 50 00:02:27,699 --> 00:02:33,220 Speaker 2: was selecting a field that wasn't necessarily consistent with circadian rhythms, 51 00:02:33,300 --> 00:02:34,258 Speaker 2: i sleeping. 52 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:39,100 Speaker 2: And really good physical, mental, social, emotional, all the ways 53 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:41,460 Speaker 2: that one could be healthy. Now, when you're in training, 54 00:02:41,538 --> 00:02:42,979 Speaker 2: you don't want to get in trouble, you want to 55 00:02:42,979 --> 00:02:46,059 Speaker 2: do a good job, you're working hard and the responsibilities 56 00:02:46,059 --> 00:02:48,139 Speaker 2: for you to take care of patients. 57 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:51,330 Speaker 2: So the shift never had any time to take a 58 00:02:51,330 --> 00:02:54,728 Speaker 2: break to eat built in. However, in the hospital where 59 00:02:54,729 --> 00:02:57,649 Speaker 2: I worked, there was a coffee shop. So I shared 60 00:02:57,649 --> 00:03:00,369 Speaker 2: the story of speed walking to the coffee shop, grabbing 61 00:03:00,369 --> 00:03:02,970 Speaker 2: a small coffee, grabbing a bagel, and by the time 62 00:03:02,970 --> 00:03:07,100 Speaker 2: I had sped walked back, I had inhaled the bagel 63 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:09,179 Speaker 2: and I had the coffee for the rest of the shift. 64 00:03:09,570 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 2: And actually, Adara and I wrote an article about agency 65 00:03:14,529 --> 00:03:15,380 Speaker 2: and how 66 00:03:15,729 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: Microskills is certainly about navigating the workplace and professional journey, 67 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:24,649 Speaker 2: and we believe though that amidst these large institutions where 68 00:03:24,649 --> 00:03:26,850 Speaker 2: you feel like you have no control and no agency, 69 00:03:26,929 --> 00:03:30,850 Speaker 2: there really can be agency. And so I think it's 70 00:03:30,850 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: really important even on the busiest shifts to figure out 71 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,690 Speaker 2: ways to eat, to figure out ways to make sure 72 00:03:37,690 --> 00:03:40,889 Speaker 2: you get sleep. And the final thing that we talk 73 00:03:40,889 --> 00:03:43,169 Speaker 2: about in medicine, and there's more than 3, but these 74 00:03:43,169 --> 00:03:44,649 Speaker 2: are 3 that we, we called out. 75 00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:48,259 Speaker 2: is calling in sick when you're sick because it's kind 76 00:03:48,259 --> 00:03:51,369 Speaker 2: of funny, not funny. We see many doctors in training 77 00:03:51,369 --> 00:03:54,940 Speaker 2: and faculty doctors like walk around the emergency department with 78 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:58,619 Speaker 2: an IV in their arm. Maybe they had food poisoning 79 00:03:58,619 --> 00:04:01,259 Speaker 2: because they ate something bad. Maybe they're pregnant in the 80 00:04:01,259 --> 00:04:04,899 Speaker 2: first trimester and have morning sickness, or maybe they have 81 00:04:04,899 --> 00:04:08,179 Speaker 2: a bad migraine headache. We've certainly seen people kind of 82 00:04:08,179 --> 00:04:11,179 Speaker 2: just work through it with the IV in their arm, medicine, 83 00:04:11,380 --> 00:04:14,279 Speaker 2: fluids to continue to see patients and 84 00:04:14,610 --> 00:04:17,290 Speaker 2: You know, again, we all know that that's not right 85 00:04:17,290 --> 00:04:20,829 Speaker 2: for anybody, for patients, for the doctor, for the teams, 86 00:04:20,928 --> 00:04:23,489 Speaker 2: for anybody. I'll add, I think one of the harder 87 00:04:23,488 --> 00:04:26,730 Speaker 2: parts is that it's not modeled for us, how to 88 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: take care of our own health, our own personal health. 89 00:04:29,619 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 2: And I would say I did not learn how to 90 00:04:32,799 --> 00:04:35,679 Speaker 2: take care of myself from a colleague. I actually learned 91 00:04:35,678 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: it from a patient. I had a patient, he came 92 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: in with terminal cancer. It was very obvious that he 93 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: was not going to be living for much longer, and 94 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: I happened to just ask him, because it was a 95 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: slow shift and I love to get to know my patients, 96 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,809 Speaker 2: how did you come to get diagnosed with cancer? 97 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,100 Speaker 2: And in that story, he shared that he was on 98 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,099 Speaker 2: his last day of working as a consultant. He hung 99 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: up the phone and looked at his wife and said 100 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,419 Speaker 2: to her, I'm all yours now because he had really 101 00:05:04,420 --> 00:05:09,019 Speaker 2: been spending his entire mid-adult life consumed by working, and 102 00:05:09,459 --> 00:05:11,660 Speaker 2: he was finally able to spend time with his wife. 103 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: They were actually in the car when he told her this, 104 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,209 Speaker 2: driving to a primary care doctor's appointment because he had 105 00:05:18,209 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 2: been having some back pain and his doctor was like, oh, 106 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: it's probably just a kidney stone. Let's just check. 107 00:05:24,178 --> 00:05:28,149 Speaker 2: And within an hour of him hanging up the phone, 108 00:05:28,290 --> 00:05:31,470 Speaker 2: he was in the doctor's office getting a diagnosis of 109 00:05:31,470 --> 00:05:38,459 Speaker 2: terminal cancer. And what he said to me was so striking. 110 00:05:38,988 --> 00:05:41,779 Speaker 2: He said, I worked my entire life for just that 111 00:05:41,779 --> 00:05:45,269 Speaker 2: one hour of freedom. And at that moment I was like, 112 00:05:45,428 --> 00:05:48,029 Speaker 2: oh my God, I am this person. I, I am 113 00:05:48,029 --> 00:05:51,630 Speaker 2: this person who was just like, my own needs, my 114 00:05:51,630 --> 00:05:52,500 Speaker 2: own health. 115 00:05:53,010 --> 00:05:55,958 Speaker 2: And not even just my own personal needs, it's also 116 00:05:55,959 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: like the needs of my family, hanging out with them, 117 00:05:58,079 --> 00:06:00,549 Speaker 2: spending time with them, my own hobbies, all of that 118 00:06:01,269 --> 00:06:05,790 Speaker 2: was being deferred to this like later life that was 119 00:06:06,299 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: assumed to be there, right, retirement. And I think in 120 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,799 Speaker 2: our line of work, we see so many people not 121 00:06:13,799 --> 00:06:18,500 Speaker 2: reach that journey of like freedom. And for me, I 122 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:21,678 Speaker 2: don't think I really ever had an attending, so a 123 00:06:21,678 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 2: supervising doctor. 124 00:06:23,450 --> 00:06:26,049 Speaker 2: sit me down and say, hey, it seems like you're 125 00:06:26,049 --> 00:06:27,959 Speaker 2: not really prioritizing your own needs. 126 00:06:28,769 --> 00:06:31,890 Speaker 1: So there was always a reward for pushing yourself. I 127 00:06:31,890 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: think Tiffany, that sounds like us in Singapore as well, right? 128 00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: It's not just in medicine, but I think in many, 129 00:06:37,290 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: many areas of our work. 130 00:06:38,803 --> 00:06:42,674 Speaker 1: People glorify themselves by saying that they're busy and they 131 00:06:42,674 --> 00:06:44,875 Speaker 1: didn't have time to eat. It's almost like a badge 132 00:06:44,875 --> 00:06:49,035 Speaker 1: of honor, right? And it perpetuates this thinking that then 133 00:06:49,035 --> 00:06:51,605 Speaker 1: if I have to do self-care, it has to be long. 134 00:06:51,795 --> 00:06:53,184 Speaker 1: It has to take up time, I have to take 135 00:06:53,184 --> 00:06:54,234 Speaker 1: 3 holidays a year. 136 00:06:54,488 --> 00:06:57,109 Speaker 1: I have to spend a whole day by myself, but 137 00:06:57,109 --> 00:07:00,178 Speaker 1: all these things take time, right? And from your experiences, 138 00:07:00,269 --> 00:07:03,029 Speaker 1: is there a way to just have pockets of self-care 139 00:07:03,029 --> 00:07:05,708 Speaker 1: during the day, throughout the day so that you don't 140 00:07:05,709 --> 00:07:07,219 Speaker 1: kind of like run out of steam. 141 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:10,070 Speaker 2: I think you really set up for us to discuss 142 00:07:10,070 --> 00:07:14,209 Speaker 2: deliberate rest. Deliberate rest could be having a meal with friends. 143 00:07:14,690 --> 00:07:17,850 Speaker 2: Deliberate rest could be making sure you exercise. Deliberate rest 144 00:07:17,850 --> 00:07:20,768 Speaker 2: could be reading a book, not for your profession, but 145 00:07:20,769 --> 00:07:24,130 Speaker 2: for pleasure. It can mean also like taking a walk 146 00:07:24,130 --> 00:07:27,450 Speaker 2: in nature. So these types of breaks, these deliberate intentional 147 00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: breaks where you're resting, when you return back to the work, 148 00:07:31,329 --> 00:07:34,769 Speaker 2: you're even more efficient, you're even more focused, and that 149 00:07:34,769 --> 00:07:38,329 Speaker 2: has proved true over and over again for me. So 150 00:07:38,329 --> 00:07:41,489 Speaker 2: I really have reworked the way I schedule my days 151 00:07:41,489 --> 00:07:42,369 Speaker 2: and my evenings. 152 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,209 Speaker 1: So it's interesting that you brought up examples about taking walks, 153 00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:48,890 Speaker 1: reading books. If I'm reading a book, I'm sure my 154 00:07:48,890 --> 00:07:52,170 Speaker 1: mind stays on the book, but if I'm walking, my 155 00:07:52,170 --> 00:07:53,929 Speaker 1: mind will start to wander. So I bet 156 00:07:53,929 --> 00:07:55,540 Speaker 2: all four of us are like that, that even though 157 00:07:55,540 --> 00:07:57,529 Speaker 2: we're walking in nature, our mind is still going like 158 00:07:57,529 --> 00:07:58,929 Speaker 2: right when I'm done with my nature walk, I need 159 00:07:58,929 --> 00:08:01,970 Speaker 2: to do this, I'm going to do this. The science 160 00:08:01,970 --> 00:08:04,730 Speaker 2: shows that even just being in nature exposing to nature 161 00:08:04,730 --> 00:08:07,130 Speaker 2: does something to us and I'll use the example, there's 162 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:09,089 Speaker 2: a book called Your Brain on Art. 163 00:08:09,609 --> 00:08:11,329 Speaker 2: If you go to a museum or if you go 164 00:08:11,329 --> 00:08:14,410 Speaker 2: listen to music, like you feel it, it does something 165 00:08:14,410 --> 00:08:17,649 Speaker 2: to you, it moves you, it penetrates you. And so sure, 166 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:19,489 Speaker 2: maybe we're still thinking about the work we need to 167 00:08:19,489 --> 00:08:22,850 Speaker 2: get back to or our to do list, but we've 168 00:08:22,850 --> 00:08:25,970 Speaker 2: taken ourselves out of that environment of work, of sitting 169 00:08:25,970 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 2: at the desk, of staring at the screen, that actually 170 00:08:29,679 --> 00:08:33,049 Speaker 2: is restorative and does give us that break and 171 00:08:33,349 --> 00:08:36,359 Speaker 2: I actually think about it, it allows me to also like, 172 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 2: as I'm thinking, I'm like, oh, you know what, that's 173 00:08:38,719 --> 00:08:40,770 Speaker 2: not important. I can take that off my task list. 174 00:08:40,849 --> 00:08:42,450 Speaker 2: So you know what, that is high priority. I got 175 00:08:42,450 --> 00:08:43,968 Speaker 2: to make sure I, that's the first thing I need 176 00:08:43,969 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: to take care of. It allows you to sort of reflect, 177 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:49,890 Speaker 2: these of be quieting the mind. There are many ways 178 00:08:49,890 --> 00:08:52,729 Speaker 2: to quiet the mind, swimming, something where you're doing a 179 00:08:52,729 --> 00:08:53,929 Speaker 2: repetitive behavior can do. 180 00:08:54,270 --> 00:08:54,979 Speaker 2: for some people. 181 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:58,030 Speaker 1: In this book that you've written, microskills and there are 182 00:08:58,030 --> 00:09:01,070 Speaker 1: 9 steps on 9 micros skills to help with self-care. 183 00:09:01,150 --> 00:09:03,390 Speaker 1: The other tip that I've noticed and I thought it 184 00:09:03,390 --> 00:09:07,539 Speaker 1: was really interesting is to have a personal board of directors. 185 00:09:08,150 --> 00:09:10,750 Speaker 1: Explain to us what is that and who should be 186 00:09:10,750 --> 00:09:12,179 Speaker 1: in your inner circle. 187 00:09:12,429 --> 00:09:14,890 Speaker 2: A personal board of directors is 188 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:17,689 Speaker 2: what it sounds like. It's a team of people, a 189 00:09:17,690 --> 00:09:20,848 Speaker 2: very dynamic team, meaning it's not a static group of 190 00:09:20,849 --> 00:09:24,369 Speaker 2: people who are around you at all fixed times of life. 191 00:09:24,409 --> 00:09:28,089 Speaker 2: It's shifting, it's changes in proximity. So someone might be 192 00:09:28,090 --> 00:09:30,809 Speaker 2: very close to you for one period of time and 193 00:09:30,809 --> 00:09:33,330 Speaker 2: then 6 months later, perhaps they're a little bit more 194 00:09:33,330 --> 00:09:36,809 Speaker 2: drifted away because the need is changed. But it's this 195 00:09:36,809 --> 00:09:40,409 Speaker 2: idea that you have people around you who have specialized 196 00:09:40,409 --> 00:09:41,049 Speaker 2: skill sets. 197 00:09:41,599 --> 00:09:45,210 Speaker 2: That can help support you. For instance, around my personal 198 00:09:45,210 --> 00:09:47,530 Speaker 2: board of directors, I might have someone who I go 199 00:09:47,530 --> 00:09:52,799 Speaker 2: to once, twice a year for personal finance questions about 200 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:54,689 Speaker 2: investing strategies with taxes. 201 00:09:55,229 --> 00:09:57,130 Speaker 2: I have someone else who I go to way more 202 00:09:57,130 --> 00:10:01,059 Speaker 2: regularly in regards to raising my children because I have 203 00:10:01,059 --> 00:10:04,299 Speaker 2: mentors for motherhood. I have someone for writing, someone who 204 00:10:04,299 --> 00:10:07,098 Speaker 2: I go to to help me sort of better learn 205 00:10:07,099 --> 00:10:09,169 Speaker 2: the craft of writing. They read a lot of my work, 206 00:10:09,299 --> 00:10:11,459 Speaker 2: they comment on it, they meet with me regularly. 207 00:10:11,859 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: And so these are people who just have like finite 208 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,630 Speaker 2: skill sets and they sit at this theoretical table around me, 209 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: almost like a long boardroom table you would see if 210 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: you walked into a business room, right? And they sit 211 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: around me and they add to my growth. It's important 212 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: to remember that this team is always expanding, right? So 213 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: there's always this like open seat where you're hoping that 214 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 2: as you're networking and meeting more people, you find others. 215 00:10:36,523 --> 00:10:39,752 Speaker 2: Who you can bring onto your personal boards. One last 216 00:10:39,752 --> 00:10:41,953 Speaker 2: comment about this idea of networking that we talk a 217 00:10:41,953 --> 00:10:45,482 Speaker 2: lot about is it's not just taking from others. There's 218 00:10:45,482 --> 00:10:49,312 Speaker 2: this very important need for you to also think about 219 00:10:49,312 --> 00:10:53,192 Speaker 2: how you can help give. And our first microscope of 220 00:10:53,192 --> 00:10:56,513 Speaker 2: the book is nourishing relationships for people you trust because 221 00:10:56,513 --> 00:11:00,551 Speaker 2: we think it's important to not just siphon off content 222 00:11:00,552 --> 00:11:00,953 Speaker 2: from them, right? 223 00:11:01,195 --> 00:11:03,666 Speaker 2: You have to give back the reciprocal nature allows you 224 00:11:03,666 --> 00:11:05,415 Speaker 2: to really nurture that relationship. 225 00:11:05,825 --> 00:11:08,535 Speaker 1: You know this idea of the personal board of directors, 226 00:11:08,866 --> 00:11:12,705 Speaker 1: it really requires us to allow people into our lives first, right? 227 00:11:12,785 --> 00:11:16,216 Speaker 1: It really requires us to be that little bit more vulnerable, 228 00:11:16,625 --> 00:11:19,145 Speaker 1: be willing to stop to listen to what other people 229 00:11:19,145 --> 00:11:21,536 Speaker 1: are saying. I have a friend and I will consider 230 00:11:21,535 --> 00:11:23,705 Speaker 1: this man to be on my personal board of directors 231 00:11:23,705 --> 00:11:25,786 Speaker 1: and he always asked me this question. 232 00:11:26,099 --> 00:11:28,750 Speaker 1: He said, How are you resting? It's like he doesn't ask, 233 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,919 Speaker 1: how are you? because my response would be like, I've 234 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:32,598 Speaker 1: been busy, I've been doing this, he said, how are 235 00:11:32,599 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: you resting? He goes straight to the point, right? 236 00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:37,179 Speaker 1: Allowing people like this into your life, it can help 237 00:11:37,179 --> 00:11:39,608 Speaker 1: with the self-care part because you do sometimes need that 238 00:11:39,780 --> 00:11:42,929 Speaker 1: that check-in somehow. Yeah. So some people would ask, I mean, 239 00:11:43,059 --> 00:11:45,419 Speaker 1: if they can get behind the concept of personal board 240 00:11:45,419 --> 00:11:48,429 Speaker 1: of directors, but I guess the question is how does 241 00:11:48,429 --> 00:11:52,580 Speaker 1: that translate to self-care in the workplace? Like how do 242 00:11:52,580 --> 00:11:56,710 Speaker 1: these people help me to care for myself at work? 243 00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:59,049 Speaker 2: I think it's really good to have someone on your 244 00:11:59,049 --> 00:12:00,020 Speaker 2: board of directors 245 00:12:00,090 --> 00:12:03,780 Speaker 2: really emphasizes that question you just mentioned, Gerald, like, how 246 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:06,919 Speaker 2: are you resting. So for me, I'm an advisor for 247 00:12:06,919 --> 00:12:09,339 Speaker 2: the Harvard Medical School, so I have like 45 students 248 00:12:09,340 --> 00:12:12,780 Speaker 2: who I oversee regularly. They all sort of consider me 249 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:17,049 Speaker 2: their self-care board member because I start every single meeting, 250 00:12:17,219 --> 00:12:21,010 Speaker 2: every single time with tell me about your mental, physical, 251 00:12:21,059 --> 00:12:24,299 Speaker 2: and social health. And I'm very direct about asking. So 252 00:12:24,299 --> 00:12:27,369 Speaker 2: how's your mood? How are you feeling about life? 253 00:12:27,849 --> 00:12:30,690 Speaker 2: How are you exercising? I asked someone, something similar, how 254 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:33,849 Speaker 2: are you resting or how do you relax? And then 255 00:12:33,849 --> 00:12:36,039 Speaker 2: I asked, who, who have you spent time with recently, 256 00:12:36,049 --> 00:12:39,409 Speaker 2: just to try to understand their social dynamic. But we 257 00:12:39,409 --> 00:12:42,289 Speaker 2: talk about that much more than we talk about their 258 00:12:42,289 --> 00:12:46,650 Speaker 2: projects and their research and their grades, because all of 259 00:12:46,650 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: that is usually a reflection of those first three things, 260 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:52,299 Speaker 2: their mental health, their physical health, their social health. 261 00:12:52,690 --> 00:12:55,340 Speaker 2: And so I think it's important to try to recruit 262 00:12:55,340 --> 00:13:00,939 Speaker 2: people who you think value well-being and have those folks 263 00:13:00,940 --> 00:13:04,900 Speaker 2: in your corner who can check in with you and 264 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:08,140 Speaker 2: discuss with you strategies because it's a skill, like well-being, 265 00:13:08,299 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 2: self-care is 266 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:12,419 Speaker 2: Not something that is intrinsic to many of us who 267 00:13:12,419 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: are probably more so hyperproductive, workaholics, or we just feel 268 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,500 Speaker 2: intimidated to actually set boundaries. So people always think your 269 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,479 Speaker 2: bored must be people that are older than you or 270 00:13:24,479 --> 00:13:25,710 Speaker 2: more experienced than you. 271 00:13:26,169 --> 00:13:28,780 Speaker 2: The same way we picture mentors, and I say that 272 00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:31,260 Speaker 2: one of my favorite kind of mentors, peer mentors, people 273 00:13:31,260 --> 00:13:34,569 Speaker 2: that are my same level, same age, same experience. To date, 274 00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:38,059 Speaker 2: one of my long standing personal board of directors is 275 00:13:38,059 --> 00:13:41,460 Speaker 2: a university friend. He has been my go to person 276 00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:44,580 Speaker 2: with whom I discussed, for example, if I'm considering a 277 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:48,539 Speaker 2: job position. Number one, weighing it, but also then talking 278 00:13:48,539 --> 00:13:49,619 Speaker 2: about how to 279 00:13:50,119 --> 00:13:53,010 Speaker 2: negotiate. He's also someone that I call, and I have 280 00:13:53,010 --> 00:13:55,089 Speaker 2: a few people because you don't want to tax one 281 00:13:55,090 --> 00:13:57,169 Speaker 2: person more than others. You want to spread out sort 282 00:13:57,169 --> 00:13:59,449 Speaker 2: of the asks. This is someone I call when I 283 00:13:59,450 --> 00:14:02,608 Speaker 2: have a difficult conversation, we role play the conversation and 284 00:14:02,609 --> 00:14:05,770 Speaker 2: that's actually one of the great ways to work with. 285 00:14:05,955 --> 00:14:08,575 Speaker 2: board members is to say, hey, can I practice this 286 00:14:08,575 --> 00:14:11,564 Speaker 2: conversation that I'm a little concerned about, but he also, 287 00:14:11,655 --> 00:14:15,255 Speaker 2: even though he is not in medicine or in healthcare, 288 00:14:15,534 --> 00:14:18,294 Speaker 2: has really highlighted for me that all of these different 289 00:14:18,294 --> 00:14:25,455 Speaker 2: industries is all about communication, people management, morale building, navigating conflict, 290 00:14:25,614 --> 00:14:28,544 Speaker 2: these themes which are the themes of our 10 chapters, 291 00:14:28,575 --> 00:14:30,994 Speaker 2: literally go across all work industries. 292 00:14:31,934 --> 00:14:34,655 Speaker 1: Risa, you mentioned about practicing a conversation. 293 00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:36,919 Speaker 1: There is a conversation that I would like to tap 294 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: on both of you for. There's this one tip, one 295 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: microscale that's in the book about offloading routine tasks that 296 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: bring you no joy or purpose. Many Singaporeans will want 297 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,359 Speaker 1: to rehearse that conversation because they can't wait to get 298 00:14:49,359 --> 00:14:52,239 Speaker 1: things off their responsibility, but they don't know how. They 299 00:14:52,239 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: don't know how to speak to their bosses about it. 300 00:14:55,219 --> 00:14:57,750 Speaker 1: They would just suffer in silence. So tell us, how 301 00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:59,059 Speaker 1: does that practically work out? 302 00:14:59,229 --> 00:15:02,179 Speaker 2: It's very important for us to make it clear that 303 00:15:02,469 --> 00:15:06,260 Speaker 2: we are not referring to the core roles of your job. 304 00:15:06,349 --> 00:15:09,109 Speaker 2: I have given many lectures on this exact topic. We 305 00:15:09,109 --> 00:15:12,500 Speaker 2: should have a sense of happiness, a sense of purpose, 306 00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:16,549 Speaker 2: a sense of growth when we're doing work, right? And 307 00:15:16,909 --> 00:15:18,989 Speaker 2: if you're not having that, then perhaps the work you're 308 00:15:18,989 --> 00:15:21,950 Speaker 2: doing is not right for you. And inevitably, every single 309 00:15:21,950 --> 00:15:23,059 Speaker 2: time I give this lecture, 310 00:15:23,739 --> 00:15:26,919 Speaker 2: Someone more senior raises their hand and says, Are you 311 00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:30,299 Speaker 2: telling people to quit their job? Because if I hired 312 00:15:30,299 --> 00:15:31,940 Speaker 2: you for something and you tell me you're not going 313 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:34,010 Speaker 2: to do it because it doesn't bring you joy. 314 00:15:34,479 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: I can't keep you there. And so I think that's 315 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,250 Speaker 2: a big, very important distinction, right? Like I'm a physician, 316 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: I work clinical shifts, and if I were to say 317 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,830 Speaker 2: to my boss, I no longer want to see patients, 318 00:15:47,239 --> 00:15:49,270 Speaker 2: that would be a problem as far as me keeping 319 00:15:49,270 --> 00:15:52,190 Speaker 2: my contract, right? Because that's like the core aspect of 320 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:55,590 Speaker 2: why I'm hired. What we're referring to is different. 321 00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:58,869 Speaker 2: These are a lot of the more optional tasks that 322 00:15:58,869 --> 00:16:04,070 Speaker 2: still fill our plate, that still cause mental overwhelm and burden. 323 00:16:04,469 --> 00:16:06,380 Speaker 2: In the book, we actually try to take some of 324 00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:10,140 Speaker 2: that challenge off of your plate by providing some scripts 325 00:16:10,390 --> 00:16:13,349 Speaker 2: that will allow you to sort of have a starting place. 326 00:16:13,799 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: And from there you can workshop. I mean, I would 327 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,919 Speaker 2: say Chat GPT and all sorts of apps can even 328 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: help you further along, but I have used Chat GPT 329 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,030 Speaker 2: as well for navigating conversations in anticipation for having it. 330 00:16:27,359 --> 00:16:29,270 Speaker 2: And so there's all sorts of ways you can do it. 331 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,479 Speaker 2: The idea though is to make sure that the thing 332 00:16:31,479 --> 00:16:34,559 Speaker 2: you are quitting or or leaving behind is not something 333 00:16:34,559 --> 00:16:36,719 Speaker 2: that would actually keep you from keeping your job. And 334 00:16:36,719 --> 00:16:39,210 Speaker 2: and if that is the case, that's an important discussion 335 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:41,359 Speaker 2: for you to have with your personal board of directors. 336 00:16:41,729 --> 00:16:44,250 Speaker 2: So the way I do it typically is there's something 337 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:47,330 Speaker 2: I don't want to do. I think about the stakes 338 00:16:47,330 --> 00:16:50,330 Speaker 2: of this. Like, is this something where if if I 339 00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:53,919 Speaker 2: say no or I quit, my supervisor would be upset 340 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: or disappointed. It would impact my salary, my promotion. Like, 341 00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:01,929 Speaker 2: what is the stakes of this thing that I'm stepping 342 00:17:01,929 --> 00:17:02,650 Speaker 2: aside from? 343 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:06,300 Speaker 2: If it's low stakes, a lot of that fear goes away. 344 00:17:06,750 --> 00:17:08,589 Speaker 2: If I'm worried, that's when I go to my personal 345 00:17:08,589 --> 00:17:11,099 Speaker 2: board of directors and I'm like, Hey, I'm thinking about 346 00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:14,469 Speaker 2: stepping down from this, and I want to know what 347 00:17:14,469 --> 00:17:16,709 Speaker 2: your thoughts are. Is this the right timing? Is this 348 00:17:16,709 --> 00:17:19,969 Speaker 2: the right messaging? Who do I go to first? How 349 00:17:19,969 --> 00:17:23,270 Speaker 2: do I make sure I control the narrative around this? 350 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:25,939 Speaker 2: And once you get used to this process, it becomes 351 00:17:25,939 --> 00:17:27,910 Speaker 2: much easier every single time. 352 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:31,500 Speaker 2: Yes. There's a really good graphic in the book where 353 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:36,010 Speaker 2: we talk about automating, delegating, and there are two others, 354 00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:38,670 Speaker 2: and some things can just be taken off the plate. 355 00:17:39,219 --> 00:17:43,010 Speaker 2: And so certain things, certain tasks can be automated. 356 00:17:43,444 --> 00:17:46,354 Speaker 2: Certain things can be delegated is say you want to 357 00:17:46,354 --> 00:17:49,675 Speaker 2: train up someone who hasn't learned the skill that you 358 00:17:49,675 --> 00:17:52,954 Speaker 2: no longer really are feeling it and you actually don't 359 00:17:52,954 --> 00:17:56,004 Speaker 2: need it for doing the core roles and responsibilities of 360 00:17:56,005 --> 00:18:00,584 Speaker 2: your job by taking things off the plate, that leaves 361 00:18:00,724 --> 00:18:03,275 Speaker 2: opportunity for more things or for you to actually do 362 00:18:03,275 --> 00:18:04,234 Speaker 2: some more of that deliberate 363 00:18:04,234 --> 00:18:04,675 Speaker 1: rest. 364 00:18:05,109 --> 00:18:07,859 Speaker 1: Another thing that resonated with me when I was reading 365 00:18:07,859 --> 00:18:13,130 Speaker 1: your book was to set limits on time spent during meetings. Now, 366 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:15,500 Speaker 1: this will be a very interesting one for our listeners 367 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:17,540 Speaker 1: because some people would say, look, I'm not the one 368 00:18:17,540 --> 00:18:21,209 Speaker 1: chairing the meeting, so I can't set a time limit 369 00:18:21,209 --> 00:18:24,099 Speaker 1: on the meeting that I'm going for. Can you help 370 00:18:24,099 --> 00:18:27,819 Speaker 1: us by teaching us how to communicate with our peers 371 00:18:27,819 --> 00:18:30,819 Speaker 1: and our bosses on trying to make a meeting like 372 00:18:30,819 --> 00:18:33,660 Speaker 1: a half an hour meeting rather than a 1 hour meeting. 373 00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:36,349 Speaker 2: I think this is a challenge. I mean, we don't 374 00:18:36,489 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 2: say that any of this stuff is easy. It's possible. 375 00:18:39,069 --> 00:18:41,409 Speaker 2: It's a skill, and I think this is a very 376 00:18:41,410 --> 00:18:44,969 Speaker 2: common challenge. I've been in this exact situation. I used 377 00:18:44,969 --> 00:18:50,569 Speaker 2: to have almost 2 hour meetings regularly, and it was 378 00:18:50,569 --> 00:18:54,530 Speaker 2: painful because I think we were probably only productive for 379 00:18:54,530 --> 00:18:59,180 Speaker 2: about 30 minutes or so. There's this part of me 380 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:02,329 Speaker 2: that wanted to see how my peers felt first before 381 00:19:02,329 --> 00:19:03,849 Speaker 2: I even raised anything. 382 00:19:04,469 --> 00:19:07,550 Speaker 2: Up to the person who was leading this meeting. And 383 00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:10,349 Speaker 2: so I, I definitely remember asking other folks who were 384 00:19:10,349 --> 00:19:12,109 Speaker 2: on my team, like, hey, what do you think about 385 00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:13,429 Speaker 2: these meetings? And a lot of people were like, yeah, 386 00:19:13,670 --> 00:19:17,189 Speaker 2: not very productive, not very helpful. So that was step one, 387 00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:19,979 Speaker 2: making sure that my intuition was correct. 388 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,609 Speaker 2: The second step was really trying to understand the personality 389 00:19:23,890 --> 00:19:27,609 Speaker 2: of the person who's leading this and how they will 390 00:19:27,609 --> 00:19:30,369 Speaker 2: respond to any suggestion. And that was a really important 391 00:19:30,369 --> 00:19:34,530 Speaker 2: step because there are different leadership skills and styles, personality types, 392 00:19:34,569 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: and so you want to know who you're working with. 393 00:19:36,849 --> 00:19:39,489 Speaker 2: We talk a lot about learning your workplace culture and 394 00:19:39,489 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: a big part of that is observation, observing just how 395 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,438 Speaker 2: sensitive someone is, how quick they are to respond in 396 00:19:46,689 --> 00:19:48,530 Speaker 2: positive or negative ways. 397 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:50,930 Speaker 2: And so I think that was my second step was 398 00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:53,609 Speaker 2: just trying to understand like how well does this person 399 00:19:53,609 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: take feedback? What are the best ways of giving them feedback? 400 00:19:58,209 --> 00:20:01,369 Speaker 2: And then from there, I actually asked a mentor of 401 00:20:01,369 --> 00:20:04,410 Speaker 2: mine what they think about my strategy, what they think 402 00:20:04,410 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: about telling this person, and I got some feedback there. 403 00:20:07,329 --> 00:20:09,899 Speaker 2: I think I started with just this idea of 404 00:20:10,270 --> 00:20:12,420 Speaker 2: What's best for the team, and I think what's best 405 00:20:12,420 --> 00:20:15,099 Speaker 2: for the team is us being efficient. Yes. And so 406 00:20:15,099 --> 00:20:18,699 Speaker 2: I really framed it around efficiency and sort of use 407 00:20:18,699 --> 00:20:21,900 Speaker 2: language like we have these regular meetings and I'm curious 408 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,339 Speaker 2: if there are ways for us to be more efficient 409 00:20:24,859 --> 00:20:27,849 Speaker 2: towards goals that I think would benefit all of us. 410 00:20:28,219 --> 00:20:31,010 Speaker 2: So instead of having like a two hour meeting regularly, 411 00:20:31,449 --> 00:20:33,890 Speaker 2: What are your thoughts about 30 minutes, and instead we 412 00:20:33,890 --> 00:20:38,089 Speaker 2: use like an hour for our individual goals and we 413 00:20:38,089 --> 00:20:41,930 Speaker 2: work asynchronously. And it actually took some time, I actually 414 00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:44,438 Speaker 2: think it took COVID, because we used to meet in person, 415 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:47,409 Speaker 2: but it took some time for us to really just 416 00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:47,699 Speaker 2: like 417 00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:50,489 Speaker 2: Welcome. This is a better way. But I think for me, 418 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:52,819 Speaker 2: it was this idea of like not just like running 419 00:20:52,819 --> 00:20:56,420 Speaker 2: into it and saying, Hey, these meetings aren't working for me, 420 00:20:56,540 --> 00:21:00,069 Speaker 2: but it was like making sure that my intuition was correct, 421 00:21:00,739 --> 00:21:02,938 Speaker 2: understanding who I'm working with and what's their best way 422 00:21:02,939 --> 00:21:05,599 Speaker 2: of getting feedback, getting just a little bit of coaching 423 00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:06,579 Speaker 2: on the language. 424 00:21:06,979 --> 00:21:10,020 Speaker 2: And then phrasing it in a way that benefits them 425 00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:12,629 Speaker 2: and the team, and it's not just like all about me. 426 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:15,629 Speaker 2: Like this isn't working for me. It was, this isn't 427 00:21:15,630 --> 00:21:18,109 Speaker 2: working for everyone. Here, here are ways that we can 428 00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:19,228 Speaker 2: help everyone. 429 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,430 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if there's one thing that I'm taking away 430 00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:27,380 Speaker 1: with with me from today's sport, it's really about how 431 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,510 Speaker 1: everything the micros skills are there for us to practice, 432 00:21:30,670 --> 00:21:34,149 Speaker 1: but yet it's a challenge. It's a challenge. It requires 433 00:21:34,150 --> 00:21:37,349 Speaker 1: us to adapt it into our own context and to 434 00:21:37,349 --> 00:21:41,300 Speaker 1: be deliberate intentional in practicing them. So I'm really glad 435 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,329 Speaker 1: that both of you came on here to give us 436 00:21:43,329 --> 00:21:46,349 Speaker 1: this reality check, right? Yes, there are micros skills, but 437 00:21:46,349 --> 00:21:47,949 Speaker 1: you got to be deliberate about it. 438 00:21:48,239 --> 00:21:51,150 Speaker 1: So thank you for your time, Dr. Adara and Dr. Risa. 439 00:21:51,189 --> 00:21:51,978 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 440 00:21:52,270 --> 00:21:53,229 Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. 441 00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 2: Hello, 442 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:01,089 Speaker 1: this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we take 443 00:22:01,089 --> 00:22:03,958 Speaker 1: on a work-related question that you have sent to us. 444 00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,729 Speaker 1: Do continue to write to us. We really, really love 445 00:22:07,729 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: answering them. Now today's question is sent by our listener, Josiah. 446 00:22:12,569 --> 00:22:15,689 Speaker 1: Let me read, Josiah says, I am job hunting now 447 00:22:15,689 --> 00:22:18,489 Speaker 1: and I understand that it's important to write my resumes 448 00:22:18,489 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: for the job that I'm applying for. 449 00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:24,030 Speaker 1: But I find it a waste of time to write 450 00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:28,909 Speaker 1: cover letters. Are cover letters really necessary? And if I 451 00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:31,949 Speaker 1: must submit one, how do I make my cover letter 452 00:22:31,949 --> 00:22:35,948 Speaker 1: stand out? Josiah, I feel you. So I'm going to 453 00:22:35,949 --> 00:22:38,550 Speaker 1: ask Gerald this question. Why do we even need cover 454 00:22:38,550 --> 00:22:40,910 Speaker 1: letters in the first place? I think Josiah asked a 455 00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:43,688 Speaker 1: question that many people have in their minds as well 456 00:22:43,689 --> 00:22:45,829 Speaker 1: when they're job seeking, right? Like writing the resume is 457 00:22:45,829 --> 00:22:47,810 Speaker 1: painful enough, right? And then now you got to. 458 00:22:47,926 --> 00:22:49,635 Speaker 1: The cover letter to it and you don't even know 459 00:22:49,635 --> 00:22:52,556 Speaker 1: what it's for. So I think if today we go 460 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:53,995 Speaker 1: back a little bit in history to where the cover 461 00:22:53,994 --> 00:22:57,875 Speaker 1: letters start from, right? In the 50s, right, in the US, 462 00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:00,635 Speaker 1: they started to ask for cover letters to try to 463 00:23:00,635 --> 00:23:03,235 Speaker 1: understand a bit more of the context of why this 464 00:23:03,234 --> 00:23:05,895 Speaker 1: person is trying to apply for a job. So at 465 00:23:05,895 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 1: the back of the cover letter, they have your resume, right, 466 00:23:08,515 --> 00:23:11,156 Speaker 1: or your qualifications, your experiences, but in the front, it's 467 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,235 Speaker 1: meant to be that summary, a quick snapshot of what 468 00:23:14,234 --> 00:23:15,365 Speaker 1: you have and also 469 00:23:15,411 --> 00:23:16,921 Speaker 1: So why are you applying for this job, right? So 470 00:23:16,921 --> 00:23:19,321 Speaker 1: this was done in the 50s and as the name suggests, 471 00:23:19,401 --> 00:23:22,802 Speaker 1: cover letter is meant to cover the the resume. So 472 00:23:22,802 --> 00:23:25,401 Speaker 1: it's the first thing that you should see. But this 473 00:23:25,401 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: was in the 50s and right now today in our 474 00:23:28,881 --> 00:23:33,322 Speaker 1: modern society where the number of job applications outnumber the 475 00:23:33,321 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: number of jobs on average I think 200 plus, easily 476 00:23:35,881 --> 00:23:39,761 Speaker 1: 200 plus per job applicant. So you can't imagine a 477 00:23:39,761 --> 00:23:42,802 Speaker 1: recruiter reading everything, right? 478 00:23:43,109 --> 00:23:46,149 Speaker 1: So what I've often observed is recruiters will just skip 479 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: the cover letter. They go straight to the resume, they 480 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,630 Speaker 1: will take a look and then they would come back. 481 00:23:50,719 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: They would come back to the cover letter. So instead 482 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,810 Speaker 1: of reading it first, they may usually last the second 483 00:23:55,810 --> 00:23:57,599 Speaker 1: thing and of course they will spend more time reading 484 00:23:57,599 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: the front page, the cover letter, if the contents of 485 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,979 Speaker 1: the resume fit with what they're looking for. OK, OK, 486 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: so don't write a generic cover letter that's what you're saying. 487 00:24:06,689 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 1: Understanding it right that put effort into your resume first 488 00:24:10,239 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: so that it will peak the hiring manager's interest, then 489 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,949 Speaker 1: write a good summary for your cover letter because then 490 00:24:18,199 --> 00:24:20,438 Speaker 1: if you are shortlisted as the top 5 people that 491 00:24:20,439 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: they want to maybe send to the next round, they 492 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,958 Speaker 1: may then read your cover letter. Yes, I think the 493 00:24:25,959 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: cover letter still has its purpose. I wouldn't suggest to 494 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: omit it. 495 00:24:30,479 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: But like what you mentioned, right, the resume, it should 496 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,229 Speaker 1: be a strong one, right? And then your cover letter 497 00:24:35,229 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: reinforces what is on the resume, right? There are a 498 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,270 Speaker 1: few other things that you can do with your cover 499 00:24:40,270 --> 00:24:42,349 Speaker 1: letter as well. The first thing is to add a 500 00:24:42,349 --> 00:24:44,829 Speaker 1: little bit of personality, a bit of the why. Why 501 00:24:44,829 --> 00:24:47,550 Speaker 1: are you attracted to the company, or what about the 502 00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:49,550 Speaker 1: product or the service is relevant to what you have 503 00:24:49,550 --> 00:24:50,260 Speaker 1: done before. 504 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,060 Speaker 1: So these are some of the things that you may 505 00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:55,020 Speaker 1: not be able to add into your resume that much, right? 506 00:24:55,099 --> 00:24:57,060 Speaker 1: So think of your cover letter as a little bit 507 00:24:57,060 --> 00:24:59,660 Speaker 1: of the forward piece while your resume is like a 508 00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:02,150 Speaker 1: training back in your career experiences. OK, but I never 509 00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:06,099 Speaker 1: read the forward part of any book. So just assume 510 00:25:06,099 --> 00:25:08,300 Speaker 1: if let's say today the recruiter is printing out some 511 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:10,619 Speaker 1: of these documents, right, and the first thing that they 512 00:25:10,619 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: put on top is the cover letter, right? So then 513 00:25:13,239 --> 00:25:15,909 Speaker 1: Their eyes would glance and they would see some things 514 00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:17,829 Speaker 1: on the cover letter. You catch the eye, right? So 515 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,270 Speaker 1: that's why it's important to also have some good formatting 516 00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: on the cover letter page, bullet points, numberings so that 517 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,718 Speaker 1: they don't have to read the whole letter, but when 518 00:25:26,719 --> 00:25:29,839 Speaker 1: their eyes are drawn to something very concise and they 519 00:25:29,839 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: see that and they like what they see, and then 520 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: it will encourage them to turn back, right? 521 00:25:34,489 --> 00:25:37,180 Speaker 1: The other thing often I remind people is in a 522 00:25:37,180 --> 00:25:39,869 Speaker 1: very tight race where many people are hunting for the 523 00:25:39,869 --> 00:25:43,260 Speaker 1: same job, sometimes smallest preparation makes the difference, right? The 524 00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:46,020 Speaker 1: things that you do slightly differently, with a bit more effort, 525 00:25:46,060 --> 00:25:48,930 Speaker 1: a bit more heart, it might just get picked up 526 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,859 Speaker 1: and you're just hit by that. Yeah, so don't give 527 00:25:51,859 --> 00:25:53,459 Speaker 1: up on the cover letter. That's what I'm saying. 528 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,900 Speaker 1: Some people I know, some companies I know they, they 529 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,310 Speaker 1: may even take it as incomplete. If you don't provide 530 00:25:58,310 --> 00:26:02,270 Speaker 1: a cover letter, it just, OK, so I know of 531 00:26:02,270 --> 00:26:05,099 Speaker 1: this recruiter, this one person, I won't name who this 532 00:26:05,099 --> 00:26:07,889 Speaker 1: person is, but I observed that the person tended to 533 00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:11,430 Speaker 1: omit applications that didn't come with cover letters. 534 00:26:13,464 --> 00:26:15,334 Speaker 1: They infer it as like you're not sincere because we 535 00:26:15,334 --> 00:26:17,534 Speaker 1: asked for a cover letter and a resume, right, and 536 00:26:17,535 --> 00:26:19,895 Speaker 1: you didn't want to provide that. So I'm just going 537 00:26:19,895 --> 00:26:22,954 Speaker 1: to meet you lah. It's incomplete and basically the person 538 00:26:22,954 --> 00:26:26,255 Speaker 1: halved the number of applications to screen. Wow, wow, so 539 00:26:26,255 --> 00:26:28,885 Speaker 1: half of them didn't provide a cover letter and automatically 540 00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:31,093 Speaker 1: they were not considered. So I think you can be 541 00:26:31,094 --> 00:26:33,135 Speaker 1: a little bit more cautious and just provide. 542 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,189 Speaker 1: But make the most of it lah. Don't just provide 543 00:26:35,189 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: something that is similar to what you've written, customize it 544 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,750 Speaker 1: a bit, add your personality, a bit of your why 545 00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:41,910 Speaker 1: you're going to be there. And of course, ending off 546 00:26:41,910 --> 00:26:44,469 Speaker 1: with a call to action, right? Put down your phone 547 00:26:44,469 --> 00:26:48,150 Speaker 1: number there again, right, because again if it's on the 548 00:26:48,150 --> 00:26:50,270 Speaker 1: first thing that they see, you're just making their life 549 00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:53,829 Speaker 1: a bit more convenient. Yeah, exactly, make it easier for them. 550 00:26:54,213 --> 00:26:56,561 Speaker 1: to contact you. Yeah, I mean that I can get 551 00:26:56,561 --> 00:26:58,852 Speaker 1: behind because I think with the resume we are all 552 00:26:58,853 --> 00:27:02,052 Speaker 1: kind of just throwing out sometimes the entire bus, right? 553 00:27:02,133 --> 00:27:04,812 Speaker 1: The bus and the sink and everything. So with the 554 00:27:04,811 --> 00:27:07,412 Speaker 1: cover letter, you're saying it's OK to put bullet points, 555 00:27:07,733 --> 00:27:10,383 Speaker 1: show a bit of your personality and also the tone 556 00:27:10,383 --> 00:27:13,411 Speaker 1: is be nice about it and then lastly to have 557 00:27:13,412 --> 00:27:14,571 Speaker 1: the call to action. 558 00:27:15,115 --> 00:27:17,595 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, so that answers my question too, because I've 559 00:27:17,595 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 1: always wondered like how much effort should I put in 560 00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: my cover letter and how do I actually even stand 561 00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:26,234 Speaker 1: out among the CEO of cover letters. Well, if like Josiah, 562 00:27:26,375 --> 00:27:29,475 Speaker 1: you have a work-related question that you think we can 563 00:27:29,475 --> 00:27:31,984 Speaker 1: help you to answer, do write into us. We are 564 00:27:31,984 --> 00:27:38,196 Speaker 1: at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. We're also on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 565 00:27:38,276 --> 00:27:41,426 Speaker 1: Me Listen, and YouTube where a video version of this 566 00:27:41,426 --> 00:27:41,995 Speaker 1: is at. 567 00:27:42,369 --> 00:27:45,959 Speaker 1: The team behind the Workki podcast is Christina Robert, Joanne Chan, 568 00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:50,899 Speaker 1: Junai Johari, Sayey and Alison Jenner. Video by Hanida Amin. 569 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,079 Speaker 1: I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a super work week ahead.