Speaker 1: this is a C N. A podcast.
Speaker 1: Choosing your career feels like one of the biggest decisions
Speaker 1: you make. While some people are lucky to just know
Speaker 1: what they want to do, others do not. How do
Speaker 1: you pick a career that is meaningful, makes an impact
Speaker 1: on the world and also pays the bills. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the climate conversations with me. I'm your guest host
Speaker 1: for today and I'm excited to be part of this initiative.
Speaker 1: I'm a year three undergraduate at the School of Law
Speaker 1: of the Singapore Management University. Besides my law modules, I'm
Speaker 1: also learning from Professor Winston Child on how technology can
Speaker 1: be used to advance sustainability.
Speaker 1: This course opened my eyes to the opportunities that exist
Speaker 1: in a sustainability space. These opportunities are called green jobs,
Speaker 1: which will be today's topic, but what are green jobs?
Speaker 1: And could it be your calling
Speaker 1: with me to discuss? Green jobs is MS. A well
Speaker 1: known local environmentalists who runs the instagram page, the way
Speaker 1: that while where she aims to make sustainability information more
Speaker 1: accessible to 14,000 followers, she also works as a sustainability
Speaker 1: consultant at Carbon
Speaker 1: Welcome to Thank you for coming on today. Thanks
Speaker 2: for having me. It's nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: Many of my friends follow your work on instagram and
Speaker 1: I'm very excited that I'm speaking to you today. You
Speaker 1: are quite well known in this space, but many do
Speaker 1: not really know that you have worked in a range
Speaker 1: of green jobs as well.
Speaker 1: Was your work in sustainability a journey of self discovery
Speaker 1: or was it a childhood inspiration
Speaker 2: for me growing up, Environmentalism has been a very big
Speaker 2: part of my journey. I was very into animals and
Speaker 2: conservation at a young age steve Irwin was my is
Speaker 2: my childhood hero and ever since then I
Speaker 2: I wanted to pursue something in that field, be it
Speaker 2: being a biologist and Ecologist. And frankly corporate sustainability never
Speaker 2: occurred to me as a viable job opportunity until the
Speaker 2: recent years. So it was until university where I took
Speaker 2: up the undergraduate course of Environmental Studies at the National
Speaker 2: Universe
Speaker 2: City of Singapore. And I remember at that time this
Speaker 2: was 2016, many people were very hesitant about doing sustainability
Speaker 2: or environmentalism because they were like when you come out,
Speaker 2: what what are you going to do? Are they really
Speaker 2: opportunities and what is the employment rate of the course
Speaker 2: like that, so it's exciting to be in this space
Speaker 2: at this time.
Speaker 1: How do you assure yourself while you're starting to cause
Speaker 1: that
Speaker 1: what you're currently learning is useful for the future, since
Speaker 1: you had bills to pay parents to support and you
Speaker 1: definitely want some would say luxuries in your life as well.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of risks and chances that I
Speaker 2: was taking, I knew that, but I felt that I
Speaker 2: wanted to learn something that really aligned with what I
Speaker 2: wanted to do growing up and it was also something
Speaker 2: that I wanted to enjoy learning when I think about
Speaker 2: environmental studies as a cause the very fact is it
Speaker 2: is a complex, interdisciplinary. We took chemistry, we took statistics, geography, sociology,
Speaker 2: political science, history,
Speaker 2: the technicals really come in choosing one of these fields
Speaker 2: and trying to see the environmental lens from maybe learning
Speaker 2: about how the chemical compounds of certain greenhouse gasses or
Speaker 2: even pollutants will affect ecosystems. Or even when
Speaker 2: it comes to thinking about things like environmental impact assessments,
Speaker 2: it's not just the very technical ecological science that goes
Speaker 2: into it, but also how do we take into account
Speaker 2: the societal aspects of tearing down the forest or affecting
Speaker 2: the ecosystems in a certain way,
Speaker 1: linkedin has found that the fastest growing green skills are
Speaker 1: used in jobs that aren't traditionally thought as green, such
Speaker 1: as fleet managers and even data scientists with this. Do
Speaker 1: you think that our definition of green jobs is too
Speaker 1: narrow and it's so what is a green job to you?
Speaker 2: So I did some research before coming to this and
Speaker 2: I saw that the International Labor Organization defines green jobs
Speaker 2: as decent jobs that contribute to preserve or restore the environment.
Speaker 2: It can be in traditional sectors such as manufacturing and
Speaker 2: construction or in new emerging green sectors such as renewable energy,
Speaker 2: energy efficiency or even things like carbon services. So for me,
Speaker 2: I feel like we need to define green job mainly
Speaker 2: because even when I ask somebody that question, can you
Speaker 2: tell me what a green job is? People struggle or
Speaker 2: tell me different answers. So if you are a person
Speaker 2: working on sustainable packaging, does that count as a green job?
Speaker 2: Some may say yes, but if you're someone working in
Speaker 2: marketing for a renewable energy company, would you consider that
Speaker 2: a green job? Some others will also say yes. So
Speaker 2: I think there's just so many different types and I
Speaker 2: saw a linkedin study also about green skills and green
Speaker 2: jobs that
Speaker 2: they define different jobs as either green greening or has
Speaker 2: greening potential. And that gave me a lot to think
Speaker 2: about what necessarily makes a job green or should every
Speaker 2: job be a green job? So we definitely suffer from
Speaker 2: issues with definition, but that doesn't ignore the fact that
Speaker 2: there is a demand for people with some expertise in
Speaker 2: sustainability in whatever form of shape that it takes.
Speaker 1: So will you say that your current job as a
Speaker 1: sustainability consultant is more of a case, like you're a
Speaker 1: doctor where you diagnose what kind of environmental issues that
Speaker 1: will occur? Do you think that is usually what you
Speaker 1: do as a sustainability consultant? Or do you think it's
Speaker 1: more multidisciplinary as you described?
Speaker 2: I think it really depends. And this goes back to
Speaker 2: your initial question on what is a green job, Right.
Speaker 2: When you think about sustainability consultant, I've had friends who
Speaker 2: asked me what does that mean? You know, because sustainable
Speaker 2: finance is such a big thing over the news now,
Speaker 2: They asked me, do you do investment analysis or are
Speaker 2: you on the ground at a construction site testing water
Speaker 2: And it gave me the idea that there's not a
Speaker 2: very in depth understanding of why
Speaker 2: sustainability consultant or someone that was a sustainability consultant do
Speaker 2: so for me at least I work very closely with
Speaker 2: clients to think about sustainability and decarbonization. So Unravel Carbon
Speaker 2: is an enterprise software for companies to track and reduce
Speaker 2: their carbon emissions and we specialize in ASIA's businesses and
Speaker 2: supply chains. So we help companies measure track and reduce
Speaker 2: their emissions in ASia pacific.
Speaker 2: So for me as a sustainability consultant it's working very
Speaker 2: closely with clients to understand what does the carbon profile
Speaker 2: look like for this company in this sector and looking
Speaker 2: to measure their emissions accurately and then using those insights
Speaker 2: and helping them make business decisions in the past. In N. G. O. S.
Speaker 2: I've worked on things like social media campaigns to educate
Speaker 2: people about human wildlife conflict. I've
Speaker 2: also analyze banks and their environmental impact and also worked
Speaker 2: on all sorts of energy related work. So it's a
Speaker 2: whole range of things and it requires so many disciplines
Speaker 2: and you learning on the job also because sustainability those
Speaker 2: issues are not static things change. So it's a lot
Speaker 2: of continuous learning because this industry or this movement of
Speaker 2: this topic is going to grow in the years to
Speaker 2: come
Speaker 1: considering that you have recently joined Unravel Carbon. I believe
Speaker 1: that you have currently had in mind some specializations or
Speaker 1: some areas in which you are more passionate about. If
Speaker 1: you have any. Do you mind sharing these specializations and
Speaker 1: how you're going to work towards them?
Speaker 2: Wow, I knew that I've always wanted to work in
Speaker 2: the environmental space, whatever that looks like
Speaker 2: while that being said, I am constantly on the lookout
Speaker 2: for activities that align with my worldview of wanting to
Speaker 2: do no harm or make an impact on the planet,
Speaker 2: but choosing a career is not as easy as finding
Speaker 2: something that aligns with your values. You need to think
Speaker 2: about what you get to do at this job. Do
Speaker 2: you get to learn what you want to learn? And
Speaker 2: is it paying the bills? Are there other priorities in
Speaker 2: your life that you have to consider and trying to
Speaker 2: think of specialization to
Speaker 2: 23 years in the industry? It's a bit hard for
Speaker 2: me to figure that out because the industry is also evolving.
Speaker 2: So for me at this point, where can I learn
Speaker 2: and where can I really be involved in work that
Speaker 2: allows me to feel a pulse of what companies are
Speaker 2: really thinking about sustainability and trying to build my skills
Speaker 2: from friends from people from my family, they always give
Speaker 2: me the advice that your interest and priorities may change
Speaker 2: over time. So at this point, what do you feel
Speaker 2: like doing
Speaker 2: and why not go and give it a try
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are
Speaker 1: the host of a new podcast called working, we're here
Speaker 1: to get into the essential things that no one tells
Speaker 1: you about working in company culture, from office politics to
Speaker 1: dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted to eavesdrop on
Speaker 1: an interesting conversation by the water cooler. This podcast is
Speaker 1: for you look out for our episodes wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcast,
Speaker 1: given the overlaps between your work and environmental activism on
Speaker 1: the world and well, I do have a particular career
Speaker 1: goal or will career goal be more defined by the
Speaker 1: impact you admit in his sustainability space?
Speaker 2: I look at goals beyond my career and these are
Speaker 2: life goals or values that I want to live my
Speaker 2: life by thinking about sustainability of course is a principle
Speaker 2: and underneath that their values like, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to minimize my impact, but at the same time contribute
Speaker 2: to something
Speaker 2: that is building towards, I guess a better world, climate wise,
Speaker 2: so doing the weird and while where on one hand
Speaker 2: I'm talking about climate science and making them accessible to people.
Speaker 2: And at the same time joining a team like Unravel
Speaker 2: Carbon where they're developing technology to help companies d carbon eyes,
Speaker 2: those are two activities that contribute to this goal of mine.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 2: it just so happens that working as a sustainability consultant
Speaker 2: has become my career. So I would like to think
Speaker 2: that the impact that I make in all the different
Speaker 2: aspects of my life, including my career would contribute to
Speaker 2: the bigger picture of me caring for the planet in
Speaker 2: my own ways. Because as an individual, I'm also not
Speaker 2: just my job, I am a friend, I'm an
Speaker 2: environmentalist, I'm an artist, I'm so many things, but I
Speaker 2: want all those pieces of the puzzle to fit within
Speaker 2: certain values, such that I know every time that I
Speaker 2: spend working at this job or outside, I'm able to
Speaker 2: live a life that I'm happy with and that I
Speaker 2: can be very proud of
Speaker 1: if you have one thing to share about yourself that
Speaker 1: is outside of the work you do, perhaps your hobbies
Speaker 1: or interests, what we like your listeners to know.
Speaker 2: Um I would love my listeners to know that I'm
Speaker 2: also a very creative person, not just because of the
Speaker 2: work that I do, but I love experimenting with craft
Speaker 2: with music. I remember during the pandemic, I even tried
Speaker 2: to learn how to DJ, because it was something I've
Speaker 2: always wanted to learn and that reignited the whole creative
Speaker 2: part of me that I feel like I've never had
Speaker 2: enough time to properly delve into. What
Speaker 1: do you think a meaningful green job looks like?
Speaker 2: Just because you are in a green job doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it will automatically take all your checkboxes when you're
Speaker 2: looking for a job. There's just so many considerations for me,
Speaker 2: it so happens that climate impact is one of those
Speaker 2: tick boxes
Speaker 2: that I want to check off is this place gonna
Speaker 2: not just allow me to use my skills, but also
Speaker 2: develop some skills that I think could be meaningful in
Speaker 2: trying to contribute to, I guess a positive impact on
Speaker 2: the planet. So this could be things like
Speaker 2: opportunities to understand international negotiations, opportunities to see the inner
Speaker 2: workings of a sustainability unit of a company, or even
Speaker 2: things like opportunities to be doing field work. Those definitions
Speaker 2: at least are just some things that I feel I've considered,
Speaker 2: but also I keep every door open in it, if
Speaker 2: I find that this work more or less align
Speaker 2: everything I want out of a job that's meaningful and
Speaker 2: it's such a subjective thing,
Speaker 1: I think you've made a very good point about creating
Speaker 1: meaningful green jobs because there is quite an unfortunate stereotype
Speaker 1: that green jobs only exist to boost the reputation of
Speaker 1: the company. How will you respond to such a suspicion?
Speaker 2: Greenwashing is definitely something that people are worried about and
Speaker 2: it's a kind of risk that of course companies are
Speaker 2: thinking about in the news, you see so many instances
Speaker 2: of company a doing something and then get called out
Speaker 2: for greenwashing and oftentimes greenwashing is about sustainability claims. So
Speaker 2: some might feel like perhaps when you're working on
Speaker 2: sustainability, companies want to look green but might not be
Speaker 2: actually doing the work of being green, which results in
Speaker 2: some perception of what working in sustainability looks like. So
Speaker 2: I would say that of course with that kind of
Speaker 2: mainstream awareness that take, it's not surprising to me because
Speaker 2: I do hear that when people ask me what do
Speaker 2: you do for a living,
Speaker 2: and that brings me back to my point that I
Speaker 2: hope that there's a greater awareness of the different kinds
Speaker 2: of sustainability related jobs out there, because there really is
Speaker 2: a plethora of so many different opportunities that contribute to
Speaker 2: sustainability in different ways if
Speaker 1: I'm interested to join a sustainability related role, but I'm
Speaker 1: worried that
Speaker 1: the company is just using me to green wash its operations.
Speaker 1: What advice would you give me to, sort of check
Speaker 1: whether the company is using my skills in a meaningful manner?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very big question and I think it's
Speaker 2: a very valid thing to ask because even when I'm
Speaker 2: looking out for jobs, there is a small part of
Speaker 2: my brain that goes, is this a meaningful role. Is
Speaker 2: this a role where I can take action as someone
Speaker 2: just looking out for job opportunities? I would say that
Speaker 2: definitely with any job application, even if it's in sustainability
Speaker 2: or in something else, I always do my
Speaker 2: due diligence. So I research, I read about the company's
Speaker 2: activities in sustainability and sometimes I even actively go and
Speaker 2: look for, were there any controversy is, and how did
Speaker 2: they resolve that? Because sustainability is not easy for any
Speaker 2: company and they're bound to be mistakes, but more importantly
Speaker 2: for me when evaluating that is So how did they
Speaker 2: go about doing that? How are they resolving it? I've
Speaker 2: spoken to
Speaker 2: so many people working in sustainability before I decided on
Speaker 2: any job that I would take or ask them, What
Speaker 2: do you think about this, What have you heard about
Speaker 2: this role? This is my impression of this role. Do
Speaker 2: you have a better understanding of what that looks like?
Speaker 2: And also confirming that even with your interviewers, you can
Speaker 2: ask questions, you can ask them about their sustainability efforts
Speaker 2: and what you get involved in and I think over
Speaker 2: time with practice,
Speaker 2: you are better able to see is this role really
Speaker 2: for me is what they're telling me to do really
Speaker 2: for me. And is that something that I find meaningful?
Speaker 2: Because what's meaningful is very different from everybody
Speaker 1: throughout this whole podcast, you gave some good advice on
Speaker 1: the mindsets. Once you have, when venturing into green jobs,
Speaker 1: perhaps you can share more concrete career advice,
Speaker 1: such as what majors or what causes one should take
Speaker 1: if he or she is interested in venturing into green jobs,
Speaker 2: I can tell people or at least share about how
Speaker 2: I got to where I am today or what did
Speaker 2: I do to get here? I chose Environmental Studies as
Speaker 2: a major because I felt that that route will give
Speaker 2: me a foundation of understanding sustainability from a science point
Speaker 2: of view from there. I took up a lot of
Speaker 2: internship experiences which continuously hones my skills and my understanding
Speaker 2: of what does
Speaker 2: a career or what does a job really look for
Speaker 2: in a fresh grad like me,
Speaker 2: I guess stress test your hypothesis on what a green
Speaker 2: job is looking out for by really trying all kinds
Speaker 2: of internships and opportunities that you can, because that will
Speaker 2: give you a better understanding of what you're looking for
Speaker 2: once you graduate,
Speaker 1: a big thank you to my guest and thanks to
Speaker 1: all of you for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode. Do remember to subscribe and like this podcast. So,
Speaker 1: you know, when a new episode drops, you can find
Speaker 1: CNN's climate and sustainability coverage online at CNN dot asia.
Speaker 1: The team behind this podcast is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, chan
Speaker 1: daniel lee and Christina robert signing off.