1 00:00:03,599 --> 00:00:05,808 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:08,939 --> 00:00:12,689 Speaker 2: Hello everyone and welcome to 2025. Take a look at 3 00:00:12,689 --> 00:00:15,409 Speaker 2: our set. Steve, do you like it? I know it's 4 00:00:15,409 --> 00:00:17,969 Speaker 2: got that sinking feeling, just nice for deep dive. Yeah, 5 00:00:18,090 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 2: I like the tablecloth. Yeah, OK, you and I obviously 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,649 Speaker 2: have different priorities. I wanted to ask you for. 7 00:00:24,879 --> 00:00:28,909 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Do you make lists, plans, resolutions? Not really, 8 00:00:29,110 --> 00:00:31,629 Speaker 2: because I found that they don't often work out. You 9 00:00:31,629 --> 00:00:34,659 Speaker 2: make it, you check it twice and then it disappears forever. 10 00:00:35,590 --> 00:00:39,750 Speaker 2: But you obviously are the listing kind. Yeah, I can 11 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:40,659 Speaker 2: see that in your eyes. 12 00:00:41,779 --> 00:00:45,348 Speaker 2: OK, so I love making lists and I think New 13 00:00:45,348 --> 00:00:48,099 Speaker 2: Year's lists are pretty good. There's some joy in taking 14 00:00:48,098 --> 00:00:50,779 Speaker 2: out things that you. So you're like a checklist kind 15 00:00:50,779 --> 00:00:54,259 Speaker 2: of person. Yes, I've done that. And what's on the list? 16 00:00:54,270 --> 00:00:54,439 Speaker 2: I think it's great. 17 00:00:56,830 --> 00:00:59,450 Speaker 2: Because it means you actually strive to achieve those goals 18 00:00:59,669 --> 00:01:01,869 Speaker 2: and out of all the lists you've had over the years, 19 00:01:01,979 --> 00:01:05,230 Speaker 2: do you often accomplish most of them? I wouldn't say most. OK. 20 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:09,540 Speaker 2: My expectations are quite low. If I have 4 things 21 00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:11,900 Speaker 2: on my list, if I meet 2. 22 00:01:12,379 --> 00:01:16,059 Speaker 2: I consider that to be a win. Ah, that's like 50% 23 00:01:16,059 --> 00:01:18,389 Speaker 2: halfway home. So this year, how many do you have 24 00:01:18,389 --> 00:01:22,889 Speaker 2: on your list? Like 12? Because that's a win. OK, 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,830 Speaker 2: slightly less than 2. 1.5, 1.5. OK, now I ask 26 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:28,900 Speaker 2: you what is on that list. 27 00:01:29,355 --> 00:01:33,164 Speaker 2: So it's usually exercise, not eating junk food, try to 28 00:01:33,165 --> 00:01:36,684 Speaker 2: cut sugar, those kinds of things. OK, the usual good 29 00:01:36,684 --> 00:01:40,764 Speaker 2: healthy stuff that doesn't really happen. On my list this 30 00:01:40,764 --> 00:01:42,885 Speaker 2: year more because it's in a bit of an annoyance. 31 00:01:42,964 --> 00:01:45,613 Speaker 2: I'm excited but annoyed by it, is it the Singapore 32 00:01:45,614 --> 00:01:46,205 Speaker 2: general election. 33 00:01:46,779 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: Because we know it's happening this year, we just don't 34 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: know when, which disrupts my plans. OK, aside from, I 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: think it's exciting because we will be hopefully having some 36 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,519 Speaker 2: good guests on the show. Of course to talk about 37 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: hopefully we definitely will. We will, yeah. OK, so but 38 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,919 Speaker 2: next month is the kickoff to this whole thing. Budget begins. 39 00:02:05,199 --> 00:02:08,918 Speaker 2: We have special episodes planned around budget. So if you 40 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,729 Speaker 2: guys have any ideas on who you think might be 41 00:02:11,729 --> 00:02:12,109 Speaker 2: a good 42 00:02:12,229 --> 00:02:16,910 Speaker 2: Yes, please hit us up CNA podcast at Mediacorp.com.sg. OK, 43 00:02:17,149 --> 00:02:21,190 Speaker 2: let's talk about today's topic. Yes, we are kicking off 44 00:02:21,190 --> 00:02:25,138 Speaker 2: a story that actually broke in December, but it's still brewing. 45 00:02:25,350 --> 00:02:30,029 Speaker 2: It's the sacking of three executives right? That's right. Singpost 46 00:02:30,029 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: is of course our postage mail system here in Singapore. 47 00:02:33,589 --> 00:02:36,309 Speaker 2: These three top guys were sacked due to what they 48 00:02:36,309 --> 00:02:37,709 Speaker 2: call grossly negligent. 49 00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:42,910 Speaker 2: Behavior in the handling of internal investigations into a whistleblower report. OK, 50 00:02:43,179 --> 00:02:45,940 Speaker 2: but we aren't talking about what happened in Spot because 51 00:02:45,940 --> 00:02:49,220 Speaker 2: the details are still unclear. We're talking about the one 52 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:52,829 Speaker 2: person who decided to do something most of us don't. OK, 53 00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:56,300 Speaker 2: that's right. Yeah. So we want to find out, you know, 54 00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:58,500 Speaker 2: what exactly is a whistleblower, how does it work in 55 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:01,940 Speaker 2: our system here in Singapore? What protections are there for 56 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:03,259 Speaker 2: the whistleblower as well. 57 00:03:07,869 --> 00:03:11,258 Speaker 2: We have with us in studio today Mark Yuanin, professor 58 00:03:11,258 --> 00:03:13,869 Speaker 2: of practice of accounting and former vice dean of the 59 00:03:13,869 --> 00:03:17,830 Speaker 2: NUS Business School, where he teaches corporate governance. Yes. Also, 60 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:21,788 Speaker 2: Celeste Ang from Baker and McKenzie Wong and Liao. She's 61 00:03:21,788 --> 00:03:26,110 Speaker 2: a principal in the firm's dispute resolution and employment practice groups. 62 00:03:26,210 --> 00:03:28,750 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Let's start with what is a 63 00:03:28,750 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: whistleblower in the Singapore context. We found that Singapore does 64 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,229 Speaker 2: not have legislation. 65 00:03:33,660 --> 00:03:37,369 Speaker 2: To protect whistleblowers, but if you go to any whistleblowing site, 66 00:03:37,419 --> 00:03:40,220 Speaker 2: for example, your company and you have a form, it 67 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:43,300 Speaker 2: says we will protect you, for example, there's a corruptions Act. 68 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:46,869 Speaker 2: So if you're an informant, your identity will be protected. 69 00:03:46,940 --> 00:03:51,289 Speaker 2: So explain to our listeners, what's the difference between legislation 70 00:03:51,289 --> 00:03:54,289 Speaker 2: versus the local protections that we have? Maybe Celeste, you 71 00:03:54,289 --> 00:03:56,770 Speaker 2: want to start? Yeah, sure. So you're absolutely right. So 72 00:03:56,770 --> 00:03:59,669 Speaker 2: at the moment, you know, there isn't an overarching whistle 73 00:03:59,669 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: blowing legislation that gives obligations to whistleblowers or to protect whistleblowers. 74 00:04:05,169 --> 00:04:07,610 Speaker 2: But there are certain legislations, as you mentioned, the Prevention 75 00:04:07,610 --> 00:04:09,929 Speaker 2: of corruption Act, some Betting Act, and a few other 76 00:04:09,929 --> 00:04:11,179 Speaker 2: legislations where 77 00:04:11,399 --> 00:04:15,550 Speaker 2: It does give limited protection, so witnesses, for example, may 78 00:04:15,550 --> 00:04:18,089 Speaker 2: not be compelled to give the names of the informants, 79 00:04:18,190 --> 00:04:22,019 Speaker 2: for example, so the whistleblowers are protected from their identification. 80 00:04:22,350 --> 00:04:26,988 Speaker 2: But those legislations are fairly specific to the context of it. 81 00:04:27,149 --> 00:04:30,510 Speaker 2: But as I said, there's generally no overarching legislation which 82 00:04:30,510 --> 00:04:33,988 Speaker 2: protects whistleblowers. So in other words, it's just the company's 83 00:04:33,988 --> 00:04:36,868 Speaker 2: word that we will protect you. Is that it? That's right. 84 00:04:37,269 --> 00:04:41,230 Speaker 2: That would form a contractual obligation of the company to 85 00:04:41,230 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: the whistleblowers who actually rely on these policies to give 86 00:04:46,109 --> 00:04:49,149 Speaker 2: information to the company. So there is limited protection in 87 00:04:49,149 --> 00:04:51,029 Speaker 2: the sense that it comes in the form of a 88 00:04:51,029 --> 00:04:53,260 Speaker 2: contractual obligation where the company will say, 89 00:04:53,769 --> 00:04:56,678 Speaker 2: If you follow these procedures, we will not retaliate against 90 00:04:56,678 --> 00:05:01,290 Speaker 2: you just because you blew the whistle, doesn't sound very reassuring, right? 91 00:05:01,488 --> 00:05:03,729 Speaker 2: Because I'm in a company, something goes wrong, I want 92 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:06,089 Speaker 2: to tell, but they say, make sure you fill out 93 00:05:06,089 --> 00:05:08,970 Speaker 2: form ABC, answer this question, da da da, send it 94 00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:11,089 Speaker 2: to HR, then I will listen to you. 95 00:05:11,464 --> 00:05:14,065 Speaker 2: Right? And reprisals take many forms, right? I mean, it's 96 00:05:14,065 --> 00:05:17,114 Speaker 2: not just sacking. I could give you a bad performance review, 97 00:05:17,303 --> 00:05:19,855 Speaker 2: I could just look at you in a different way. 98 00:05:20,024 --> 00:05:22,454 Speaker 2: There are various ways they can intimidate and then the 99 00:05:22,454 --> 00:05:26,183 Speaker 2: other question is, if there is in fact reprisal, what 100 00:05:26,184 --> 00:05:31,345 Speaker 2: appeal mechanisms do the employees actually have a good mechanism 101 00:05:31,345 --> 00:05:34,885 Speaker 2: within the organization, right? And if the organization doesn't care, 102 00:05:35,345 --> 00:05:38,625 Speaker 2: what recalls does the employee actually have? And I think 103 00:05:38,625 --> 00:05:40,303 Speaker 2: that's the difference when you have 104 00:05:40,799 --> 00:05:45,238 Speaker 2: Countries which have overarching whistleblowing legislation where you may have 105 00:05:45,238 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: an avenue you could go to to make a complaint 106 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,959 Speaker 2: if you feel there have been reprisals, and they can 107 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:54,339 Speaker 2: also provide additional protection. Sometimes that you blow the whistle, 108 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,950 Speaker 2: you may expose yourself to civil liability, for example, right, 109 00:05:58,359 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: you take a company document and you go and blow 110 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,029 Speaker 2: the whistle, right? The company may say that's company property, right, 111 00:06:04,119 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 2: or you get sued for defamation, for example, right, so. 112 00:06:07,178 --> 00:06:10,969 Speaker 2: There are various risks, right, so legislation can be helpful 113 00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:14,540 Speaker 2: in terms of having that additional layer of protection. Yeah, 114 00:06:14,738 --> 00:06:16,980 Speaker 2: so we were going to come to that because the 115 00:06:16,980 --> 00:06:19,779 Speaker 2: first thing that came to my mind was the civil service, 116 00:06:19,859 --> 00:06:23,219 Speaker 2: for example, of public servants, right? Many signed the Official 117 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:26,739 Speaker 2: Secrets Act. So then I'm thinking, OK, if I have 118 00:06:26,738 --> 00:06:29,769 Speaker 2: to whistle blow against somebody, let's say a senior director, 119 00:06:30,299 --> 00:06:32,149 Speaker 2: and the evidence I have. 120 00:06:32,690 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: A secret document, for example, how do I do it? 121 00:06:36,450 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 2: Then I'm in breach of what I signed as a 122 00:06:39,799 --> 00:06:42,328 Speaker 2: part of my employment contract, right? Have you come across 123 00:06:42,329 --> 00:06:46,630 Speaker 2: cases if you look at some statutory boards or even ministries, right, 124 00:06:46,709 --> 00:06:49,170 Speaker 2: where they actually say you can whistleblow, then they ask 125 00:06:49,170 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: you to submit documents, for example, they say you shouldn't 126 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,769 Speaker 2: just whistleblow, you need to have a reasonable basis, right, 127 00:06:54,809 --> 00:06:56,290 Speaker 2: then you need to submit evidence. 128 00:06:56,940 --> 00:06:58,859 Speaker 2: Then you have a situation, let's say you're not in 129 00:06:58,859 --> 00:07:01,220 Speaker 2: the civil service, but in a company you have signed 130 00:07:01,220 --> 00:07:04,570 Speaker 2: an NDA then how when you kind of attach documents, 131 00:07:04,738 --> 00:07:07,820 Speaker 2: are you exposing to yourself, right, to civil liability risks. 132 00:07:07,869 --> 00:07:10,589 Speaker 2: Those are concerns, right? So I'm thinking in a way, 133 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,970 Speaker 2: does it begin that all the contracts we signed. 134 00:07:13,135 --> 00:07:16,815 Speaker 2: Uh, pro-employer, because they are worded such that in the event, 135 00:07:16,994 --> 00:07:19,975 Speaker 2: I want to do something against the company, it becomes 136 00:07:19,975 --> 00:07:23,894 Speaker 2: very difficult. That's true to some extent, but in recent years, 137 00:07:23,975 --> 00:07:27,734 Speaker 2: at least in my experience, advising companies on their whistleblowing 138 00:07:27,734 --> 00:07:31,494 Speaker 2: policies and processes, there is a lot of focus now 139 00:07:31,494 --> 00:07:35,454 Speaker 2: to ensure that there is safeguards to maintain the integrity 140 00:07:35,454 --> 00:07:38,734 Speaker 2: of the whistle blowing program. So there will be assurances 141 00:07:38,734 --> 00:07:40,084 Speaker 2: given to the whistleblower. 142 00:07:40,380 --> 00:07:42,070 Speaker 2: But at the same time, in terms of the level 143 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: of information that's given, I mean just to address the 144 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,269 Speaker 2: question as well. Obviously the company needs to make sure 145 00:07:47,269 --> 00:07:49,709 Speaker 2: that there is a process to look into these complaints 146 00:07:49,709 --> 00:07:54,230 Speaker 2: such that whistleblowers don't also abuse the whistleblowing I shouldn't 147 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:56,829 Speaker 2: just say that this guy is stealing money without any evidence. 148 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,149 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you must give the reassurance. 149 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:02,750 Speaker 2: That somebody who sees something wrong that's happening is able 150 00:08:02,750 --> 00:08:07,359 Speaker 2: to speak freely without fear of further repercussions, regardless of 151 00:08:07,359 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: what your contract might say. And also under what situation 152 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,079 Speaker 2: you can blow the whistle. I mean, there's one ministry, right, 153 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,519 Speaker 2: if you look at it, they say if you want 154 00:08:15,519 --> 00:08:17,959 Speaker 2: to report a violation, you must be certain. 155 00:08:18,609 --> 00:08:21,089 Speaker 2: It uses a certain, I said there are only two 156 00:08:21,089 --> 00:08:25,089 Speaker 2: things that are certain death and taxes, right? Everything else 157 00:08:25,089 --> 00:08:27,570 Speaker 2: we just don't know for sure. So when you use 158 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:32,140 Speaker 2: a term like this in your whistleblowing policy, an employee, 159 00:08:32,210 --> 00:08:34,049 Speaker 2: how is, how is he or she going to assess, I, 160 00:08:34,169 --> 00:08:37,890 Speaker 2: I may never be certain. So let's say I'm 90%. 161 00:08:38,030 --> 00:08:40,049 Speaker 2: Sure. Should I blow the whistle? And if I blow 162 00:08:40,049 --> 00:08:42,690 Speaker 2: the whistle, am I actually violating right that policy. So 163 00:08:42,690 --> 00:08:45,130 Speaker 2: sometimes I think companies need to organizations need to look 164 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 2: at how they work their policies and so on. So 165 00:08:47,719 --> 00:08:51,359 Speaker 2: this is where the lawyers come in. So in recent years, 166 00:08:51,489 --> 00:08:54,650 Speaker 2: companies have been improving their whistleblowing policies such that the 167 00:08:54,650 --> 00:08:57,619 Speaker 2: focus is on compliance and ensuring that 168 00:08:57,869 --> 00:09:01,260 Speaker 2: There is good ethical conduct across the organization. So when 169 00:09:01,260 --> 00:09:03,549 Speaker 2: it comes to the whistleblowing, so instead of saying that 170 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: you must be certain before you whistleblow, they do want 171 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: to encourage whistleblowers to come forward if there are actually 172 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,159 Speaker 2: real issues there. So they will be looking at terms 173 00:09:12,159 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: like good faith or bad faith. Are you whistleblowing in 174 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: good faith or bad faith and that it's not frivolous, 175 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,159 Speaker 2: for example, and you're not yourself abusing the whistleblowing. OK, 176 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,159 Speaker 2: just help our listeners what do you mean when you 177 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:25,229 Speaker 2: say in good faith. 178 00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:28,020 Speaker 2: In good faith would be that your intentions for blowing 179 00:09:28,020 --> 00:09:32,380 Speaker 2: the whistle is not for an ill motive, like you're 180 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:35,738 Speaker 2: just trying to sally somebody's name, for example. You just 181 00:09:35,739 --> 00:09:39,289 Speaker 2: hate your boss, but some of that won't be discovered 182 00:09:39,289 --> 00:09:41,059 Speaker 2: till possibly later on, right? 183 00:09:41,619 --> 00:09:44,049 Speaker 2: Yeah, the policies are in place to encourage people to 184 00:09:44,049 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 2: come forward sooner, as long as the person doesn't have 185 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,809 Speaker 2: an ill motive, right? Like I said to somebody's name, 186 00:09:49,929 --> 00:09:52,330 Speaker 2: to defame somebody, to bring somebody down, you know, even 187 00:09:52,330 --> 00:09:56,010 Speaker 2: though there's actually no reasonable basis to even blow the 188 00:09:56,010 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: whistle in the first place. And they will say or belief, 189 00:10:00,169 --> 00:10:02,210 Speaker 2: but what is interesting is that if you look at 190 00:10:02,210 --> 00:10:05,449 Speaker 2: other countries, right, you look at Australia, the corporations Act, 191 00:10:06,010 --> 00:10:08,809 Speaker 2: they use reasonable grounds, but actually they don't mention good 192 00:10:08,809 --> 00:10:10,950 Speaker 2: faith at all. They used to mention good faith. 193 00:10:11,489 --> 00:10:13,359 Speaker 2: You kind of interpret it in that way, does it 194 00:10:13,359 --> 00:10:15,010 Speaker 2: mean that even if you have bad faith, but you 195 00:10:15,010 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: have reasonable grounds, you could still blow the whistle and 196 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: still could be protected. Interestingly, they revised the legislation. I mean, 197 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,239 Speaker 2: the whole idea is really to encourage more people to 198 00:10:25,239 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: come forward. OK, when I went on to the one 199 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,500 Speaker 2: of the websites and I tried to look at the form, 200 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: it asked me for quite a lot of detail and 201 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: I stopped short at the name and 202 00:10:39,109 --> 00:10:41,210 Speaker 2: was one of those lists that you were talking about. 203 00:10:41,549 --> 00:10:46,340 Speaker 2: So it says optional, right? I'm the typical Singaporean, very cynical, 204 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:49,169 Speaker 2: like even if I don't put my name, can they 205 00:10:49,169 --> 00:10:53,260 Speaker 2: trace me? Can I be totally anonymous? Yes, so when 206 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:56,299 Speaker 2: it comes to that, as to whether you can have 207 00:10:56,299 --> 00:10:59,500 Speaker 2: a confidence in the integrity of the whistle blowing program 208 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:00,619 Speaker 2: or the processes. 209 00:11:01,419 --> 00:11:05,799 Speaker 2: It will behoove the organization themselves to be able to 210 00:11:06,010 --> 00:11:09,169 Speaker 2: put in some effort to assure the people that the 211 00:11:09,169 --> 00:11:11,890 Speaker 2: whistle blowing program is actually an effective and you know, 212 00:11:11,969 --> 00:11:14,250 Speaker 2: one that has got integrity. So which is why I 213 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:15,309 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier on that 214 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: With a lot of whistleblowing program, the tone from the 215 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,799 Speaker 2: top is key. So you need to make sure that 216 00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: the management executive are committed to that whistleblowing program, not 217 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 2: to consider it like a pain in the, you know, 218 00:11:28,409 --> 00:11:31,919 Speaker 2: it's a real risk of people fearing that they'll be traced. 219 00:11:32,039 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: A few months ago actually I was on a panel 220 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,069 Speaker 2: discussion in the international conference and it was actually on whistleblowing, 221 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 2: and I was shocked when one of my fellow panelists 222 00:11:41,719 --> 00:11:43,949 Speaker 2: who works for a service provider said. 223 00:11:44,190 --> 00:11:47,500 Speaker 2: You know, I was working for this company and they 224 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:50,659 Speaker 2: had a whistleblowing complaint and we use technology to find 225 00:11:50,659 --> 00:11:52,940 Speaker 2: out who the whistleblower is, and I kind of I 226 00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:55,179 Speaker 2: was sitting next to him. I was, I was almost 227 00:11:55,179 --> 00:11:56,539 Speaker 2: going to throw my notes at him or whatever and 228 00:11:58,299 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: kind of my jaw was kind of dropping, but that 229 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,419 Speaker 2: is a fear, right? I mean, people even when they 230 00:12:03,419 --> 00:12:06,979 Speaker 2: send an email, for example, to a company email account. 231 00:12:07,659 --> 00:12:10,539 Speaker 2: Sure, you can say you can do it through some 232 00:12:10,539 --> 00:12:14,099 Speaker 2: outside source or whatever, people always, they still have that fear, 233 00:12:14,179 --> 00:12:17,098 Speaker 2: that's why some companies say we better outsource it to 234 00:12:17,099 --> 00:12:22,539 Speaker 2: a third party to manage, for example, rather than, but 235 00:12:22,619 --> 00:12:23,419 Speaker 2: but then again. 236 00:12:23,515 --> 00:12:26,294 Speaker 2: And you want to find out who is crying foul 237 00:12:26,294 --> 00:12:28,164 Speaker 2: to find out whether it's legit or not at the 238 00:12:28,164 --> 00:12:31,465 Speaker 2: same time, right? So finding out who whistleblower in a 239 00:12:31,465 --> 00:12:34,625 Speaker 2: sense is not necessarily a bad thing and the whistleblower 240 00:12:34,625 --> 00:12:38,705 Speaker 2: shouldn't be afraid of owning what they said, if it's 241 00:12:38,705 --> 00:12:40,945 Speaker 2: really true, right? Exactly, yeah. 242 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:44,020 Speaker 2: But there's a lot of repercussions, OK, so this is 243 00:12:44,020 --> 00:12:47,429 Speaker 2: the other thing, right? There are examples where a whistleblower's 244 00:12:47,429 --> 00:12:50,739 Speaker 2: life was made a living hell. Like you say, these 245 00:12:50,739 --> 00:12:56,179 Speaker 2: are powerful organizations, right? People lose their jobs. So why 246 00:12:56,179 --> 00:12:56,468 Speaker 2: would 247 00:12:56,525 --> 00:12:59,674 Speaker 2: Anyone still stick their neck out. Prof, maybe you can 248 00:12:59,674 --> 00:13:01,994 Speaker 2: share your own experience. How were you a whistleblower I 249 00:13:01,994 --> 00:13:09,074 Speaker 2: should be, you know, I've blown the whistle in different context, right? Sometimes, sometimes, yeah, 250 00:13:09,594 --> 00:13:14,284 Speaker 2: sometimes as an outsider, discovering information, I've blown the whistle 251 00:13:14,284 --> 00:13:17,914 Speaker 2: to listed companies with very specific information and the experience. 252 00:13:17,994 --> 00:13:20,025 Speaker 2: I put my name down, I'm not afraid, but I, 253 00:13:20,114 --> 00:13:23,434 Speaker 2: I do receive, even at my university people will send 254 00:13:23,434 --> 00:13:24,434 Speaker 2: me letters. 255 00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:28,689 Speaker 2: Totally still addressed to be open only by me, you know, 256 00:13:28,789 --> 00:13:32,830 Speaker 2: those kind of stuff. Some people are really afraid, so 257 00:13:32,830 --> 00:13:36,450 Speaker 2: but at the end, right, whistleblowers are those who really, 258 00:13:36,950 --> 00:13:39,510 Speaker 2: they don't have this bystander syndrome, right? They kind of 259 00:13:39,510 --> 00:13:42,510 Speaker 2: feel that something is not right, I should do something. 260 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:44,940 Speaker 2: Of course, some people blow the whistle because they are 261 00:13:44,940 --> 00:13:48,150 Speaker 2: directly caught. So years ago, I have this situation, somebody 262 00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:49,909 Speaker 2: blew the whistle because she was afraid. 263 00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: That she will be caught because she was a finance manager, 264 00:13:54,690 --> 00:13:57,728 Speaker 2: that was alleged manipulation in the announcements that were going 265 00:13:57,729 --> 00:14:00,409 Speaker 2: to be released and if she was a finance manager, 266 00:14:00,489 --> 00:14:03,049 Speaker 2: she could be complicit, right, if they so sometimes people 267 00:14:03,049 --> 00:14:06,010 Speaker 2: are in that situation, the real whistleblowers to me are 268 00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:08,450 Speaker 2: those really, you know, nothing to do with them. It 269 00:14:08,450 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: doesn't affect them directly, but they just come across it 270 00:14:11,650 --> 00:14:14,209 Speaker 2: and they just don't think it's right, right? So, so 271 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:17,608 Speaker 2: there are different types of whistleblowers, some people just generally 272 00:14:17,609 --> 00:14:18,090 Speaker 2: feel that. 273 00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: Something is not right and I should do something about it. 274 00:14:20,919 --> 00:14:23,750 Speaker 2: Let's go to the effectiveness bit. One of the things 275 00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: that came up in the Singpost saga was that the 276 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: executives were challenging the way in which it was done. 277 00:14:30,479 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: So who should be on the audit committee? Is there 278 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,380 Speaker 2: a chance that there is an own self check own 279 00:14:36,380 --> 00:14:40,349 Speaker 2: self kind of thing where, for example, if I'm whistleblowing 280 00:14:40,799 --> 00:14:42,510 Speaker 2: against say my CEO, 281 00:14:42,859 --> 00:14:45,830 Speaker 2: The board will have to get involved, right? But the 282 00:14:45,830 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: board works with the CEO quite closely. So is there 283 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,510 Speaker 2: a possibility that there might be some bias in the 284 00:14:52,510 --> 00:14:56,109 Speaker 2: process of going through this? Yeah, my own experience, right, 285 00:14:56,229 --> 00:14:58,270 Speaker 2: when I was sitting on the board years ago in 286 00:14:58,270 --> 00:15:02,349 Speaker 2: a not for profit, and you have somebody blowing the whistle. 287 00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:05,710 Speaker 2: Employee who has been pushed out, right, so this is typical, 288 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:09,739 Speaker 2: the employee had raised concerns was sidelined and pushed out. 289 00:15:10,179 --> 00:15:13,020 Speaker 2: When we received the whistleblowing report, and that was very specific, 290 00:15:13,059 --> 00:15:15,179 Speaker 2: and that's one of the things I find with genuine 291 00:15:15,179 --> 00:15:17,130 Speaker 2: whistleblowers is they are very specific. 292 00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:20,869 Speaker 2: About what the wrongdoing is and they provide, I think 293 00:15:20,869 --> 00:15:24,510 Speaker 2: it was like 50, 60 pages of evidence, right? So 294 00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:27,549 Speaker 2: in that case, right, when I reflect back on how 295 00:15:27,549 --> 00:15:29,590 Speaker 2: the board reacted, you know, you have worked with the 296 00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:32,489 Speaker 2: CEO and that was against the CEO and the COO, 297 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,229 Speaker 2: the two most senior executives, right? You have worked with 298 00:15:35,229 --> 00:15:36,580 Speaker 2: them for a while, so. 299 00:15:36,979 --> 00:15:40,770 Speaker 2: One natural reaction is, it can't be right, we know 300 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:43,460 Speaker 2: the CEO and sometimes CEOs are very good in managing 301 00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:46,250 Speaker 2: up too. So that is a bit of a problem, 302 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,739 Speaker 2: you may give the benefit of the doubt, but also 303 00:15:48,739 --> 00:15:51,099 Speaker 2: I want to be clear, you should not necessarily assume 304 00:15:51,099 --> 00:15:54,619 Speaker 2: that whatever the whistleblowing alleged is true. So there's this 305 00:15:54,619 --> 00:15:58,250 Speaker 2: thing about natural justice and due process, that's also important. 306 00:15:58,539 --> 00:16:01,020 Speaker 2: Boards and all the committees need to be conscious that 307 00:16:01,020 --> 00:16:03,710 Speaker 2: you don't end up disbelieving any. 308 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: In that case, because the employee had resigned, so one 309 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,119 Speaker 2: reaction was this employee who resigned had an ax to grind, 310 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,359 Speaker 2: but you have to look at the basis, right, whether 311 00:16:12,359 --> 00:16:15,950 Speaker 2: the employee have provided enough information. So I think boards 312 00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: and all the committees need to be looked at it 313 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,630 Speaker 2: very objectively, and then you then have to decide if 314 00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:24,039 Speaker 2: possibly the CEO could be involved, then you need to 315 00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:27,679 Speaker 2: keep the CEOO out of that process, or even the 316 00:16:27,679 --> 00:16:29,599 Speaker 2: direct report of the CEO, you also need to be 317 00:16:29,599 --> 00:16:30,710 Speaker 2: very careful because 318 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,619 Speaker 2: The CEO may well protect the direct reports, right? So 319 00:16:33,619 --> 00:16:36,179 Speaker 2: you need to think carefully in terms of if it's 320 00:16:36,179 --> 00:16:37,780 Speaker 2: a very low level complaint. 321 00:16:38,390 --> 00:16:41,739 Speaker 2: Maybe, you know, CEO may get a little bit more involved, 322 00:16:42,109 --> 00:16:45,380 Speaker 2: but if it's a high level complaint against very senior people, 323 00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:48,530 Speaker 2: senior management themselves, then you need to be very careful 324 00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:51,140 Speaker 2: in terms of how you get a CEO kind of involved. 325 00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:55,770 Speaker 2: But surely there must be some kind of a procedural requirement, right. 326 00:16:56,270 --> 00:17:01,109 Speaker 2: So at the moment, there's no overarching whistleblowing legislation, you know, 327 00:17:01,150 --> 00:17:04,030 Speaker 2: but there are pockets of legislation around. So for example, 328 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:05,469 Speaker 2: for the listed companies. 329 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:08,790 Speaker 2: Singapore Exchange will say that you do need to publish, 330 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,599 Speaker 2: you know, in your report in terms of your whistleblowing 331 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,550 Speaker 2: program and key to it is that you must have 332 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: an independent function that oversees the whistleblowing program for your 333 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: listed companies. But I would say most companies, even if 334 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: they are not listed companies where they do have a 335 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,239 Speaker 2: robust whistle blowing program will ensure independence as key. So 336 00:17:27,239 --> 00:17:30,219 Speaker 2: where you have senior management involved and you feel that 337 00:17:30,660 --> 00:17:33,579 Speaker 2: Perhaps the audit committee or board members, press the audit 338 00:17:33,579 --> 00:17:35,869 Speaker 2: committee who reports to the board may not be able 339 00:17:35,869 --> 00:17:38,938 Speaker 2: to discharge a function, then it beholds the board to 340 00:17:38,939 --> 00:17:41,938 Speaker 2: then say, OK, maybe we should outsource this to wholly 341 00:17:41,939 --> 00:17:46,579 Speaker 2: external but it's a, it's not a requirement in that sense. 342 00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:48,698 Speaker 2: It's more for them to say we have done our 343 00:17:48,699 --> 00:17:51,540 Speaker 2: due diligence by having someone that is totally in no 344 00:17:51,540 --> 00:17:53,099 Speaker 2: conflict with us whatsoever, right? 345 00:17:53,739 --> 00:17:55,859 Speaker 2: Uh no links to us, but then again, it's not 346 00:17:55,859 --> 00:17:59,390 Speaker 2: necessarily practiced by all organizations because it will cost money too. 347 00:17:59,579 --> 00:18:01,250 Speaker 2: So the third party investigate. 348 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 2: The reputational damage of you not having a whistle blowing 349 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: program that is of integrity that's independent, could be worse 350 00:18:11,050 --> 00:18:14,739 Speaker 2: than if you are, you know, exactly. So because if 351 00:18:14,739 --> 00:18:17,290 Speaker 2: it comes out, you know, it's really bad for the 352 00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:21,010 Speaker 2: company to have tried to soothe things over. I'm just 353 00:18:21,010 --> 00:18:23,729 Speaker 2: curious now because I'm thinking also how much culture play 354 00:18:23,729 --> 00:18:25,869 Speaker 2: in part of this because in our Asian culture we're 355 00:18:26,739 --> 00:18:30,209 Speaker 2: less likely to whistle blow without exploring many of the 356 00:18:30,209 --> 00:18:31,969 Speaker 2: other options first, you know. 357 00:18:32,489 --> 00:18:34,688 Speaker 2: Because we think of all the possible consequences, at the 358 00:18:34,689 --> 00:18:36,250 Speaker 2: end of the day, I may lose my job because 359 00:18:36,250 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 2: my company gets in trouble, pay a big fine, no money, 360 00:18:38,810 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 2: close the department, things like that. So even the possibility 361 00:18:42,479 --> 00:18:45,569 Speaker 2: that somebody else might lose their job, and then you 362 00:18:45,569 --> 00:18:48,010 Speaker 2: get blamed for what you did, we all have no 363 00:18:48,010 --> 00:18:51,369 Speaker 2: job now, you know, you feel like, oh my gosh, 364 00:18:51,729 --> 00:18:54,689 Speaker 2: so you probably find that in the Asian context, partly 365 00:18:54,689 --> 00:18:58,109 Speaker 2: also a hierarchical organization, you know, society and so on, 366 00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:59,170 Speaker 2: you tend to. 367 00:18:59,479 --> 00:19:01,589 Speaker 2: I think the boss is right, those kind of stuff, 368 00:19:01,699 --> 00:19:04,389 Speaker 2: there's a little bit of that. But often I think 369 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:08,630 Speaker 2: you'll find maybe more complaints, anonymous complaints, poison pen letters 370 00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:11,780 Speaker 2: to regulators, you probably find a fair bit of that. 371 00:19:12,069 --> 00:19:15,149 Speaker 2: For example, in Malaysia, right, many companies really say they 372 00:19:15,150 --> 00:19:18,550 Speaker 2: don't receive many whistleblowing complaints, but the regulators receive a 373 00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:20,939 Speaker 2: lot of them, right? poison pen letters, it's a lot. 374 00:19:21,790 --> 00:19:23,069 Speaker 2: And that's the other thing, you know. 375 00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 2: I mean, why is good for important for organizations to 376 00:19:26,719 --> 00:19:29,319 Speaker 2: have good whistleblowing policy, because if you don't have one, 377 00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: it's more likely employees will go externally. And once you 378 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,718 Speaker 2: go externally to a regulator, you may lose any control 379 00:19:35,719 --> 00:19:39,319 Speaker 2: you have in terms of how you manage the investigation process, right? 380 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 2: I mean, so in the organization's self interest to have 381 00:19:42,239 --> 00:19:45,589 Speaker 2: a good whistleblowing policy, but once you have a good 382 00:19:45,589 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: internal policy. 383 00:19:47,239 --> 00:19:50,189 Speaker 2: Employees trust the policy, they are more likely to say, OK, 384 00:19:50,329 --> 00:19:52,949 Speaker 2: I'll blow the whistle internally, and then you can do 385 00:19:52,949 --> 00:19:56,469 Speaker 2: your own investigation and then manage the process properly because 386 00:19:56,469 --> 00:20:01,380 Speaker 2: once it goes out, you kind of lose some of that. Yeah, agree, agree. 387 00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:03,030 Speaker 2: I have one last curious question. 388 00:20:03,979 --> 00:20:09,179 Speaker 2: How transparent should companies be when they have a whistleblowing 389 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:12,609 Speaker 2: report that they are dealing with the investigation? Yeah, both. 390 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,459 Speaker 2: So maybe no need to say lah, right? Because you 391 00:20:15,459 --> 00:20:19,698 Speaker 2: might get 10 reports. But let's say you have investigated something. See, 392 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: I assume some people complain about all sorts of things, right? 393 00:20:22,819 --> 00:20:25,179 Speaker 2: But only maybe 1 or 2 might be worth looking 394 00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:28,579 Speaker 2: into and then maybe one of that you found, OK, 395 00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:29,859 Speaker 2: this guy was shady. 396 00:20:30,530 --> 00:20:33,629 Speaker 2: How transparent do you need to be about the findings? 397 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:38,290 Speaker 2: There's no requirement to disclose number of whistleblowing reports that 398 00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 2: a company has received. I mean, today we talk about 399 00:20:40,719 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: sustainability reporting and sustainable reporting report about governance too, right, 400 00:20:44,949 --> 00:20:47,889 Speaker 2: and none of the standards basically say you have to 401 00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:51,089 Speaker 2: disclose the number of reports, but you know, I think 402 00:20:51,089 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 2: the better ones would disclose, but sometimes the way they 403 00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:56,709 Speaker 2: disclose is also a bit here and there, you know, 404 00:20:56,890 --> 00:20:59,369 Speaker 2: it's not specific. You see some. 405 00:20:59,453 --> 00:21:02,853 Speaker 2: Companies will disclose how many they have and what kind 406 00:21:02,853 --> 00:21:06,042 Speaker 2: of complaints they are without going into detail. Obviously, I 407 00:21:06,042 --> 00:21:09,223 Speaker 2: don't think you can expect companies to disclose, you know, 408 00:21:09,432 --> 00:21:12,243 Speaker 2: the findings of whistleblowers, not that kind of stuff, but 409 00:21:12,243 --> 00:21:15,953 Speaker 2: at least how many reports, maybe what are they relating to, 410 00:21:16,123 --> 00:21:18,282 Speaker 2: but then we see a number of companies that just 411 00:21:18,282 --> 00:21:20,842 Speaker 2: kept totally quiet, but there are also quite a number 412 00:21:20,843 --> 00:21:23,602 Speaker 2: who said they receive zero reports. Those are the most 413 00:21:23,603 --> 00:21:24,272 Speaker 2: interesting to me. 414 00:21:24,855 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 2: That's the thing, right, if you are a big company 415 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:29,875 Speaker 2: and you say you receive zero reports, you should start 416 00:21:29,875 --> 00:21:32,545 Speaker 2: looking at your whistleblowing policy, whether it's working. I've been 417 00:21:32,546 --> 00:21:36,326 Speaker 2: in organizations as you know, international organization or the advisory committee, 418 00:21:36,365 --> 00:21:37,926 Speaker 2: and one of the questions I always look at how 419 00:21:37,926 --> 00:21:41,046 Speaker 2: many complaints come to the whistleblowing channel. If I feel 420 00:21:41,046 --> 00:21:43,446 Speaker 2: there are very few, I will start asking question, is 421 00:21:43,446 --> 00:21:45,965 Speaker 2: it really working? Are employees aware of the whistleblowing policy? 422 00:21:46,005 --> 00:21:48,326 Speaker 2: Are they scared? You need to ask those kinds of questions. 423 00:21:48,365 --> 00:21:50,125 Speaker 2: That's where the audit committee needs to come in. 424 00:21:50,459 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: And kind of ask, don't say, hey, zero complaints, yeah, 425 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: you know, we don't have to do anything, right? So 426 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: you shouldn't have those kind of reaction. So in a 427 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,599 Speaker 2: way it's not realistic to expect. 428 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:06,589 Speaker 2: And MNC, a huge company, to have 0 on their report, right? 429 00:22:06,670 --> 00:22:10,389 Speaker 2: I think 0 is a red flag. Oh wow, you 430 00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:14,109 Speaker 2: have to whistleblowing, there's something that's wrong. I just thought 431 00:22:14,109 --> 00:22:18,430 Speaker 2: that it means that it was no, no, wait, but 432 00:22:18,430 --> 00:22:20,910 Speaker 2: there are different levels of whistleblowing, right? I mean, people 433 00:22:20,910 --> 00:22:23,250 Speaker 2: complain about all sorts of things, but to just say 434 00:22:23,250 --> 00:22:27,469 Speaker 2: that nobody's complaining, everyone's like happy, you're like. So transparency, 435 00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: what's your take? Transparency is important, but it may not be. 436 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:35,208 Speaker 2: Something that you report publicly, but certainly you're right, the 437 00:22:35,209 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: audit committee, the board should know how many are coming 438 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,569 Speaker 2: in because it's also an indicator, as I said, of 439 00:22:40,569 --> 00:22:53,589 Speaker 2: whether the whistleblowing program is actually working or not, but 440 00:22:53,589 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: 0 is a big red flag. If you have too many, 441 00:22:53,770 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 2: it is. I don't know that is probably your compliance. 442 00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:57,810 Speaker 2: If it's too many, you got to ask whether you 443 00:22:57,810 --> 00:22:59,369 Speaker 2: have a culture issue with the. 444 00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: And then you have to ask whether your whistleblowing policy 445 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: is clear enough because the whistleblowing policy is not intended 446 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 2: to be just a normal grievance channel. I have a 447 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,869 Speaker 2: bad performance review and I think it's unfair, you know, 448 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,239 Speaker 2: I should go to the whistleblowing hotline. I mean, that's 449 00:23:14,239 --> 00:23:16,319 Speaker 2: not where you should go to, right? So I think 450 00:23:16,319 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: that's where having a well crafted whistle blowing policy, which 451 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 2: very clearly specifies what kind of things you should. 452 00:23:22,811 --> 00:23:28,092 Speaker 2: Make the whistleblowing in MOM has started this thing about 453 00:23:28,093 --> 00:23:32,812 Speaker 2: having a proper grievance counseling process, right? So that's where 454 00:23:32,811 --> 00:23:36,262 Speaker 2: you can complain about these things, right, not promoted, etc. 455 00:23:36,532 --> 00:23:39,652 Speaker 2: But actually, here's one curious question. I understand some organizations 456 00:23:39,652 --> 00:23:43,843 Speaker 2: even not a reward but are willing to give money 457 00:23:43,843 --> 00:23:45,022 Speaker 2: in return for 458 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:48,264 Speaker 2: Whistle blowing reports. It's in some, but I don't see 459 00:23:48,265 --> 00:23:51,984 Speaker 2: it that common, it's not that common in most of 460 00:23:51,984 --> 00:23:54,595 Speaker 2: the whistleblowing programs which we've seen. They want to make 461 00:23:54,595 --> 00:23:57,115 Speaker 2: people do the right thing without just wanting to do 462 00:23:57,115 --> 00:24:00,225 Speaker 2: the right thing to get a reward. So in the 463 00:24:00,225 --> 00:24:02,865 Speaker 2: in the US of course, you have all sorts of 464 00:24:02,865 --> 00:24:07,264 Speaker 2: legislation or have whistleblowing protection and also rewards. 465 00:24:07,670 --> 00:24:10,670 Speaker 2: And you can have, I think the largest was 100s 466 00:24:10,670 --> 00:24:13,689 Speaker 2: of millions or even more than a billion payout to whistleblower, 467 00:24:14,109 --> 00:24:16,909 Speaker 2: but usually it's not by the organization themselves. I mean, 468 00:24:16,989 --> 00:24:21,510 Speaker 2: these are regulators when they extract a penalty from the company, 469 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,819 Speaker 2: the whistleblower gets a share, right? And of course in Singapore, 470 00:24:24,829 --> 00:24:29,619 Speaker 2: the Inland Revenue Authority IRAS will give you a share 471 00:24:29,949 --> 00:24:33,030 Speaker 2: up to $100,000 you blow. So if you know your colleague, 472 00:24:33,869 --> 00:24:35,109 Speaker 2: he's evading tax for. 473 00:24:36,802 --> 00:24:40,832 Speaker 2: Dave is evading tax and I'm the whistleblower, so they 474 00:24:40,833 --> 00:24:42,743 Speaker 2: extracted the money from him. I get a, a lot 475 00:24:42,743 --> 00:24:49,353 Speaker 2: of taxes, otherwise you won't even like $5000 you know 476 00:24:49,353 --> 00:24:51,512 Speaker 2: what I mean? But I don't think whistleblowers, the ones 477 00:24:51,512 --> 00:24:54,592 Speaker 2: who are genuine, ask for a reward. Actually, the IRA 478 00:24:54,593 --> 00:24:57,233 Speaker 2: one is interesting. Some years ago, I said that there 479 00:24:57,233 --> 00:24:59,873 Speaker 2: were many people who are not claiming the rewards, even 480 00:24:59,873 --> 00:25:02,142 Speaker 2: though they were entitled to it. It's kind of interesting. 481 00:25:02,311 --> 00:25:02,713 Speaker 2: They feel. 482 00:25:02,845 --> 00:25:04,715 Speaker 2: That they want to do the right thing, not necessarily 483 00:25:04,715 --> 00:25:07,395 Speaker 2: because they want to extract a reward. So recognition can 484 00:25:07,395 --> 00:25:10,785 Speaker 2: be different ways, right? It may not be monetary in nature, 485 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 2: but at the end, whistleblowers, right, I think back about 486 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,235 Speaker 2: the case that I was involved in where the whistleblower 487 00:25:16,234 --> 00:25:19,316 Speaker 2: blew the whistle against the CEO and COO. I reflect 488 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:22,036 Speaker 2: back if the whistleblower had not blown the whistle, the 489 00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:25,075 Speaker 2: damage it would have caused to the organization because she 490 00:25:25,076 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 2: blew the whistle, it protected the organization from much more 491 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:30,316 Speaker 2: severe consequences, you know. 492 00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 2: And that's why I think they deserve to be recognized 493 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,170 Speaker 2: in some way. Culturally in Asia, even though in the past, 494 00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:40,849 Speaker 2: there used to be a reticence in terms of reporting, 495 00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:43,890 Speaker 2: generally there is greater awareness now of the importance of 496 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:46,489 Speaker 2: a whistleblowing program, right? So I mean we've got legislations 497 00:25:46,489 --> 00:25:49,209 Speaker 2: which are upcoming, for example, the workplace fairness legislation that's 498 00:25:49,209 --> 00:25:49,729 Speaker 2: coming up. 499 00:25:50,089 --> 00:25:53,429 Speaker 2: So there is, you know, mandated that a grievance process 500 00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:58,270 Speaker 2: and there are protections given against retaliation for whistleblowers, for example. 501 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,510 Speaker 2: So there's definitely greater awareness now, more publicity or protections 502 00:26:02,510 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 2: that whistleblowers should be afforded. So I think it's all 503 00:26:05,479 --> 00:26:07,719 Speaker 2: good in terms of where we are sort of heading 504 00:26:07,719 --> 00:26:11,310 Speaker 2: this topic. Yeah, thank you. I learned quite a few things. See, 505 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:11,829 Speaker 2: you know. 506 00:26:12,010 --> 00:26:14,379 Speaker 2: It's always been the case that in the newsroom people 507 00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:17,130 Speaker 2: call us, but usually they call us and tell us, oh, 508 00:26:17,199 --> 00:26:19,958 Speaker 2: there are 4 ambulances here, maybe there's a murder, you 509 00:26:19,959 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: guys want to check it out, you know, but increasingly 510 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: I'm finding that there's a little bit more nuance to 511 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,339 Speaker 2: what they are saying. For example, they might say, oh, 512 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,599 Speaker 2: this company might be doing this, etc. etc. you can 513 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:33,839 Speaker 2: you can check it out. 514 00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:37,540 Speaker 2: I just feel that as a younger cohort comes into 515 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:41,589 Speaker 2: the workplace, they do have a very strong sense of justice, 516 00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:44,510 Speaker 2: right and wrong, so it's going to be harder to 517 00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:47,649 Speaker 2: do like bad things, which is good in a way, 518 00:26:50,150 --> 00:26:52,550 Speaker 2: but in that respect, then I tell you I get whistleblowers. 519 00:26:52,650 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 2: All the time because they write into our Talking Point 520 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,599 Speaker 2: email and say, hey, this water filter, it says it 521 00:26:57,599 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 2: can do this ABC. Can you check? I don't think 522 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 2: it really can, you know, this milk powder claims it 523 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,599 Speaker 2: has these nutrients. I'm not sure. Can you check? OK, 524 00:27:05,609 --> 00:27:09,629 Speaker 2: I think that's just feedback and ideas for you. Thank you. 525 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,599 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on. Alright guys, so this has 526 00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 2: been a deep dive. We hope you like what you're 527 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: listening to. If you have any, you know, ideas, thoughts, 528 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,839 Speaker 2: do drop us a note. We always do love to 529 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: hear from you. 530 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,659 Speaker 2: But otherwise, that's it for this week's episode. Thanks to 531 00:27:22,660 --> 00:27:27,099 Speaker 2: our team, Janai Johari, Tiffany Ang, Joanne Chan and Saa Win. 532 00:27:27,219 --> 00:27:29,260 Speaker 2: See you guys next week. Bye for now. Bye.