1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,539 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:11,489 Speaker 1: So at the job interview, when some applicants ask hr 3 00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:14,149 Speaker 1: or the hiring manager, what is the salary ban for 4 00:00:14,159 --> 00:00:17,290 Speaker 1: my job? Your companies are not willing to reveal that. 5 00:00:17,299 --> 00:00:20,090 Speaker 1: And you only know that ban once you start the 6 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:20,670 Speaker 1: job 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,500 Speaker 2: to be frank with you. In a lot of companies, 8 00:00:22,510 --> 00:00:25,340 Speaker 2: employees don't even know the salary ranges after they join 9 00:00:25,350 --> 00:00:28,069 Speaker 2: a company. There are a few reasons why companies generally 10 00:00:28,079 --> 00:00:30,090 Speaker 2: don't disclose pay ranges to employees. 11 00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:30,370 Speaker 1: So it 12 00:00:30,444 --> 00:00:34,064 Speaker 1: getting increasingly common for more people to advocate for themselves 13 00:00:34,075 --> 00:00:36,845 Speaker 1: asking for more salaries. How do you do it so 14 00:00:36,854 --> 00:00:38,205 Speaker 1: that you have some chance of 15 00:00:38,215 --> 00:00:38,845 Speaker 1: success? 16 00:00:38,854 --> 00:00:40,985 Speaker 2: I would say that as a people manager myself, I 17 00:00:40,994 --> 00:00:43,443 Speaker 2: always prefer employees to do that because you are giving 18 00:00:43,455 --> 00:00:45,915 Speaker 2: the company a chance to re look at your pay 19 00:00:45,924 --> 00:00:49,095 Speaker 2: without you having to resign first. If you resign first 20 00:00:49,104 --> 00:00:51,165 Speaker 2: and the company makes a counter offer, it gets a 21 00:00:51,174 --> 00:00:52,665 Speaker 2: bit too mercenary in my view. 22 00:00:54,569 --> 00:00:57,779 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the work it podcast with me, 23 00:00:57,790 --> 00:01:01,619 Speaker 1: Tiffany and my wise co-host Gerald. Wow. Thank you for 24 00:01:01,630 --> 00:01:04,330 Speaker 1: that wise, but I don't feel very wise, but ok, 25 00:01:04,339 --> 00:01:06,750 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm really enjoying this part when we get 26 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,330 Speaker 1: together to discuss the emails and what we get from 27 00:01:09,339 --> 00:01:11,849 Speaker 1: the listeners. I think it really makes me and Tiffany 28 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,580 Speaker 1: feel very happy and I'm especially glad to hear how 29 00:01:14,589 --> 00:01:17,580 Speaker 1: people have made this their weekly learning habit. As usual. 30 00:01:17,589 --> 00:01:18,550 Speaker 1: We have our a ma 31 00:01:18,699 --> 00:01:20,459 Speaker 1: ask me anything. So, Tiffany, what do you have for 32 00:01:20,470 --> 00:01:22,910 Speaker 1: me today? Today's question is sent in by a listener 33 00:01:22,919 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: who I'll call Janet. She's in a job that she 34 00:01:25,730 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: really likes. It pays well and she has work life balance. 35 00:01:29,339 --> 00:01:32,500 Speaker 1: But after seeing some of her peers do internal transfer 36 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:35,879 Speaker 1: or move for better career growth, Janet is actually wondering 37 00:01:35,889 --> 00:01:38,620 Speaker 1: whether she is on a path towards career suicide if 38 00:01:38,629 --> 00:01:41,899 Speaker 1: she stays only in one job. Wow, the situation for Jane, 39 00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:42,739 Speaker 1: it sounds like 40 00:01:43,029 --> 00:01:46,769 Speaker 1: she's feeling very uncomfortable about being comfortable. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, 41 00:01:46,809 --> 00:01:49,019 Speaker 1: we will talk a lot more about that later, Janet. 42 00:01:49,029 --> 00:01:51,129 Speaker 1: So stay tuned for the A MA segment at the 43 00:01:51,139 --> 00:01:53,949 Speaker 1: end of this podcast. So back to today's big topic 44 00:01:53,959 --> 00:01:55,239 Speaker 1: and I think this is the reason why a lot 45 00:01:55,250 --> 00:01:57,529 Speaker 1: of people are listening in as well. So there are 46 00:01:57,540 --> 00:02:00,389 Speaker 1: two big topics that our work listeners love to ask 47 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: us about. 48 00:02:00,855 --> 00:02:05,944 Speaker 1: Right, Gerald, one promotion and two salaries. So as much 49 00:02:05,955 --> 00:02:08,865 Speaker 1: as I love my job and I'm sure you do too. Gerald. 50 00:02:08,875 --> 00:02:12,024 Speaker 1: Each month when payday comes, I get a good kick 51 00:02:12,195 --> 00:02:15,184 Speaker 1: out of seeing that bump in my bank account and 52 00:02:15,195 --> 00:02:18,204 Speaker 1: then when it's bonus season, I'm especially happier 53 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,330 Speaker 1: because we all want to be adequately remunerated for all 54 00:02:22,339 --> 00:02:25,660 Speaker 1: our efforts and our work. Right? Personal question for you, 55 00:02:25,669 --> 00:02:29,579 Speaker 1: how many people in this world knows how much you earn? 56 00:02:29,589 --> 00:02:32,788 Speaker 1: Just me and my wife, just the two of us only. Yeah. 57 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,460 Speaker 1: So for me, it's the same, it's just me and 58 00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: my husband and it goes to show how we view 59 00:02:37,008 --> 00:02:42,350 Speaker 1: salaries as important but also a taboo subject to discuss publicly. 60 00:02:42,429 --> 00:02:44,070 Speaker 1: We want to know more, but we are not 61 00:02:44,298 --> 00:02:46,447 Speaker 1: to share more. In fact, to be honest, I don't 62 00:02:46,457 --> 00:02:48,518 Speaker 1: have a good sense of how much my peers are getting, 63 00:02:48,526 --> 00:02:51,417 Speaker 1: even peers in the same industry. Why do you think that? 64 00:02:51,427 --> 00:02:54,097 Speaker 1: So salaries have always been a very sensitive and personal 65 00:02:54,108 --> 00:02:56,377 Speaker 1: topic when people want to know more about it, but 66 00:02:56,388 --> 00:02:58,578 Speaker 1: they don't want to share with others what they are earning. 67 00:02:58,587 --> 00:03:01,617 Speaker 1: Of course, unless you are Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi 68 00:03:01,627 --> 00:03:03,888 Speaker 1: and the whole world knows the ginormous income that you 69 00:03:03,897 --> 00:03:06,226 Speaker 1: are earning. Very big paycheck. Yeah. So this is a 70 00:03:06,238 --> 00:03:09,098 Speaker 1: topic definitely that we need to dive deeper in and 71 00:03:09,108 --> 00:03:09,407 Speaker 1: we will, 72 00:03:09,516 --> 00:03:11,516 Speaker 1: we are so glad to have Lionel with us today 73 00:03:11,526 --> 00:03:14,046 Speaker 1: because we took so long to find someone to talk 74 00:03:14,055 --> 00:03:16,065 Speaker 1: about this. So with us today, we have Lionel Low. 75 00:03:16,076 --> 00:03:19,845 Speaker 1: He's the senior client Solutions principal of ASEAN at Mercer 76 00:03:20,126 --> 00:03:22,546 Speaker 1: and he's been working in this area of rewards and 77 00:03:22,555 --> 00:03:25,416 Speaker 1: remuneration for almost 15 years. Welcome, Lionel. 78 00:03:25,425 --> 00:03:27,376 Speaker 2: Hello morning Tiffany morning Cheryl. So 79 00:03:27,386 --> 00:03:27,466 Speaker 1: I 80 00:03:27,475 --> 00:03:29,805 Speaker 1: know that question that we were just talking about earlier. 81 00:03:29,815 --> 00:03:32,496 Speaker 1: How many people in this world knows how much you earn? Ok. 82 00:03:32,505 --> 00:03:34,466 Speaker 1: Your hr and your boss not included. 83 00:03:34,475 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 2: Actually, 84 00:03:35,154 --> 00:03:38,113 Speaker 2: I think you're right. It's basically the spouse as well 85 00:03:38,123 --> 00:03:40,494 Speaker 2: as I told my dad. Actually, my dad asked me 86 00:03:40,503 --> 00:03:42,813 Speaker 2: and I felt that I could be transparent. No issues. 87 00:03:42,824 --> 00:03:45,843 Speaker 1: Ok. But why do you think we tell so few 88 00:03:45,854 --> 00:03:47,714 Speaker 1: people in our lives how much we 89 00:03:47,723 --> 00:03:50,694 Speaker 2: earn among peers is a bit sensitive. Partly it is 90 00:03:50,703 --> 00:03:53,904 Speaker 2: because we don't want others to feel bad about their pay. 91 00:03:53,914 --> 00:03:55,934 Speaker 2: But partly also we don't want to feel bad about 92 00:03:55,944 --> 00:03:57,014 Speaker 2: our own pay ourselves. 93 00:03:57,324 --> 00:03:57,922 Speaker 1: It goes both 94 00:03:57,934 --> 00:04:00,123 Speaker 1: ways. We are actually earning way less. 95 00:04:01,662 --> 00:04:04,772 Speaker 1: Ok. Yeah, there's this thing about comparing, right? When we 96 00:04:04,781 --> 00:04:07,492 Speaker 1: compare sometimes we don't know the outcome of that comparison. 97 00:04:07,501 --> 00:04:09,302 Speaker 1: So we are like in this situation where it's catch 98 00:04:09,311 --> 00:04:11,561 Speaker 1: 22 you want to know, but you also don't want 99 00:04:11,572 --> 00:04:14,651 Speaker 1: to know which is why Lionel is here because many 100 00:04:14,662 --> 00:04:17,962 Speaker 1: companies are also guided by salary benchmarks to determine the 101 00:04:17,971 --> 00:04:21,011 Speaker 1: pay ranges for their employees. Can you maybe share with us? 102 00:04:21,022 --> 00:04:22,932 Speaker 1: How do salary benchmarks come about 103 00:04:22,940 --> 00:04:25,450 Speaker 2: from the organization point of view? 104 00:04:25,750 --> 00:04:27,808 Speaker 2: There are two lenses to look at one is how 105 00:04:27,820 --> 00:04:30,890 Speaker 2: much the market is paying. And secondly, what is the 106 00:04:30,899 --> 00:04:34,820 Speaker 2: organization's own philosophy and the assessment of obviously the incumbent 107 00:04:34,829 --> 00:04:38,209 Speaker 2: doing the job from the market perspective, there are two 108 00:04:38,220 --> 00:04:40,649 Speaker 2: angles to look at it. Firstly, the hr will need 109 00:04:40,660 --> 00:04:41,979 Speaker 2: to determine what's the peer group 110 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,809 Speaker 2: and the peer group. For comparison is typically where you 111 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:47,239 Speaker 2: hire your talent from and where you lose your talent to, 112 00:04:47,359 --> 00:04:50,178 Speaker 2: for some organizations. It may be very specific, 4 to 113 00:04:50,190 --> 00:04:53,299 Speaker 2: 5 close competitors in the market with similar products for 114 00:04:53,309 --> 00:04:55,339 Speaker 2: other organizations. It might be broader, it might be the 115 00:04:55,350 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: entire sector or it might be the general industry. Let's 116 00:04:58,209 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: say if you are in Telco in Singapore, there's just 117 00:05:00,488 --> 00:05:02,709 Speaker 2: so few Telco, you have the benchmark a bit broader. 118 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,589 Speaker 2: So that's the first thing. And obviously every job is different, 119 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,980 Speaker 2: you could look at job titles, but job titles may 120 00:05:07,988 --> 00:05:08,250 Speaker 2: look 121 00:05:08,915 --> 00:05:11,196 Speaker 2: the content of that job itself might be very different 122 00:05:11,205 --> 00:05:14,695 Speaker 2: from company to company. Therefore, hr has a methodology called 123 00:05:14,705 --> 00:05:17,726 Speaker 2: job sizing where they actually analyze its job based on 124 00:05:17,735 --> 00:05:21,305 Speaker 2: the autonomy of policy setting, the innovation required on the job, 125 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:24,585 Speaker 2: the domain knowledge, be it technical knowledge, people, knowledge or 126 00:05:24,596 --> 00:05:27,565 Speaker 2: geographical knowledge. So and so forth with their job size 127 00:05:27,575 --> 00:05:29,425 Speaker 2: and a peer group, that's how they benchmark the market. 128 00:05:30,145 --> 00:05:33,075 Speaker 2: And when it comes to assessing the incumbent, obviously there 129 00:05:33,085 --> 00:05:33,846 Speaker 2: is also a paper company, 130 00:05:34,532 --> 00:05:35,592 Speaker 1: the person in the job, the job 131 00:05:35,601 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: holder, 132 00:05:35,891 --> 00:05:38,821 Speaker 2: exactly different comers bring different things to the table. They 133 00:05:38,832 --> 00:05:42,342 Speaker 2: have different portfolios of skill sets, different track records, different history. 134 00:05:42,481 --> 00:05:44,111 Speaker 2: So you need to assess all of this for the 135 00:05:44,122 --> 00:05:47,570 Speaker 2: same job, different income could perform quite differently. Actually, some 136 00:05:47,582 --> 00:05:49,351 Speaker 2: in income even shape their own job. They might be 137 00:05:49,361 --> 00:05:51,890 Speaker 2: given a set of responsibilities, but they take that further 138 00:05:51,902 --> 00:05:53,981 Speaker 2: by taking a lot of initiative at work, giving a 139 00:05:53,992 --> 00:05:57,161 Speaker 2: lot of suggestions to management. And therefore each incumbent brings 140 00:05:57,171 --> 00:05:58,752 Speaker 2: different things on the table. And that's something that the 141 00:05:58,761 --> 00:06:00,582 Speaker 2: organization needs to take note of. 142 00:06:00,850 --> 00:06:04,399 Speaker 2: The last thing is the organization's own life cycle and strategy. 143 00:06:04,510 --> 00:06:07,390 Speaker 2: For example, I have two tech clients, they are in 144 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:10,229 Speaker 2: similar sector, but their strategy is completely different. One is 145 00:06:10,238 --> 00:06:12,790 Speaker 2: a market leader. For them, they need to maintain a 146 00:06:12,799 --> 00:06:16,269 Speaker 2: strong product development team. But really what they need is 147 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,390 Speaker 2: to continuously innovate new products and to sell to their 148 00:06:19,399 --> 00:06:22,010 Speaker 2: existing clients because they are already dominant player in the market. 149 00:06:22,309 --> 00:06:25,350 Speaker 2: Whereas another client of ours in the same sector, they 150 00:06:25,359 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: are a market challenger. So for them, they are strategies 151 00:06:28,850 --> 00:06:31,049 Speaker 2: to have a good enough product, but focus a lot 152 00:06:31,059 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: more on business development because they really have faith in 153 00:06:33,609 --> 00:06:36,209 Speaker 2: the product. So in these two organizations, the former would 154 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:39,019 Speaker 2: actually value the product development team a lot more and 155 00:06:39,029 --> 00:06:41,500 Speaker 2: maybe even pay above market to get the key talent, 156 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:44,868 Speaker 2: the second company, however, they are comfortable where the product is, 157 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 2: but they are market challenger. So they will invest in 158 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:48,649 Speaker 2: the best sales people out there. 159 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:51,679 Speaker 1: So a good way to also understand whether or not 160 00:06:51,690 --> 00:06:55,549 Speaker 1: you will have a better salary trajectory is also to 161 00:06:55,559 --> 00:06:58,779 Speaker 1: see where the company is at as part of its 162 00:06:58,790 --> 00:07:01,808 Speaker 1: own growth and also where it stands within the market 163 00:07:01,820 --> 00:07:01,909 Speaker 1: as 164 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:02,149 Speaker 1: well. 165 00:07:02,579 --> 00:07:04,670 Speaker 2: You need to know your value, your strength and pick 166 00:07:04,678 --> 00:07:06,869 Speaker 2: the company that values your strength the most. 167 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: Ok. That makes quite clear sense to me. Yeah, I'm 168 00:07:09,609 --> 00:07:11,279 Speaker 1: curious about job sizing because you said 169 00:07:11,369 --> 00:07:14,290 Speaker 1: that every job is also different, the titles will be different. 170 00:07:14,299 --> 00:07:15,850 Speaker 1: Even two persons doing the same job will be different. 171 00:07:15,929 --> 00:07:18,709 Speaker 1: So how does this job sizing influence the way salary 172 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:19,269 Speaker 1: benchmarks are 173 00:07:19,279 --> 00:07:19,790 Speaker 1: determined? 174 00:07:19,959 --> 00:07:23,149 Speaker 2: Just using an example, let's say head of it job. 175 00:07:23,190 --> 00:07:27,119 Speaker 2: If you're working for a subsidiary of an MNC which 176 00:07:27,130 --> 00:07:30,100 Speaker 2: is based elsewhere outside of Singapore, perhaps some of the 177 00:07:30,109 --> 00:07:33,630 Speaker 2: corporate policies would be channeled downwards from your headquarters. 178 00:07:33,850 --> 00:07:37,109 Speaker 2: So there's less of a policy setting role in even 179 00:07:37,119 --> 00:07:40,019 Speaker 2: the head of it job description, perhaps it is also 180 00:07:40,029 --> 00:07:43,910 Speaker 2: about localization of systems and software already selected by the 181 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,589 Speaker 2: headquarters to then Singapore or the immediate region. But in 182 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,299 Speaker 2: another organization, let's say if you join a Singapore based organization, 183 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,739 Speaker 2: then the head of it has a lot of policy setting, 184 00:07:53,750 --> 00:07:56,510 Speaker 2: a lot of decisions and autonomy to make decisions as well. 185 00:07:56,790 --> 00:07:58,769 Speaker 2: And if you look at the start up even more, 186 00:07:58,779 --> 00:08:01,130 Speaker 2: the start up has to put in place policies and 187 00:08:01,140 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: systems from ground up. So the title may be the 188 00:08:03,609 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: same across these three companies. But the job description could 189 00:08:05,890 --> 00:08:08,230 Speaker 2: be very different and the complexity could be quite different 190 00:08:08,239 --> 00:08:08,809 Speaker 2: as well. 191 00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:11,089 Speaker 1: But then correct me if I'm wrong, sometimes I do 192 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:13,369 Speaker 1: see that if you are the head of it department 193 00:08:13,380 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: in a big MNC compared with a 194 00:08:15,434 --> 00:08:18,015 Speaker 1: of department in a smaller start up, the head of 195 00:08:18,024 --> 00:08:20,605 Speaker 1: it in the MNC seems to be paid more even 196 00:08:20,614 --> 00:08:22,734 Speaker 1: though it sounds like the guy who is doing the 197 00:08:22,744 --> 00:08:24,575 Speaker 1: start up is doing more work 198 00:08:24,584 --> 00:08:27,375 Speaker 2: when it comes to deciding on the pay level. One 199 00:08:27,385 --> 00:08:30,334 Speaker 2: thing that job sizing does consider is also the size 200 00:08:30,345 --> 00:08:32,525 Speaker 2: of the company because like it or not, when you 201 00:08:32,534 --> 00:08:34,015 Speaker 2: look at, for example, SGX, 202 00:08:34,239 --> 00:08:37,179 Speaker 2: the greatest correlation to top management pay is the revenue 203 00:08:37,189 --> 00:08:40,338 Speaker 2: of the company. So that is directly linked to affordability. 204 00:08:40,348 --> 00:08:42,619 Speaker 2: It's also linked to the scale of impact you have. 205 00:08:42,708 --> 00:08:45,419 Speaker 2: If you impact a company with, let's say 50 people 206 00:08:45,429 --> 00:08:48,108 Speaker 2: versus a company of 5000 people, that impact can be 207 00:08:48,119 --> 00:08:48,739 Speaker 2: quite different. 208 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:52,039 Speaker 2: But having said that in a smaller company, sometimes the 209 00:08:52,049 --> 00:08:54,530 Speaker 2: head of it job is more complex in the sense 210 00:08:54,539 --> 00:08:56,718 Speaker 2: that you are putting in place a lot of systems 211 00:08:56,729 --> 00:09:01,489 Speaker 2: from Greenfield scenario. And therefore some of these dimensions in 212 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:04,359 Speaker 2: a job sizing methodology does counteract and trade of each other. 213 00:09:04,989 --> 00:09:07,359 Speaker 1: I want to move on to talk about salary bands 214 00:09:07,369 --> 00:09:10,799 Speaker 1: because some people say that salary band is actually quite huge. 215 00:09:10,809 --> 00:09:13,049 Speaker 1: Say for one row, it could be anywhere from four 216 00:09:13,059 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: K to eight K. What is 217 00:09:14,981 --> 00:09:18,682 Speaker 1: reasonable salary be? What is the purpose of a salary ban? Anyway, 218 00:09:18,692 --> 00:09:22,131 Speaker 2: salary bans they exist to sort of provide guidelines to 219 00:09:22,142 --> 00:09:25,921 Speaker 2: the organization. So there's some sense of market competitiveness as 220 00:09:25,932 --> 00:09:28,841 Speaker 2: well as internal equity. So if the salary ban is 221 00:09:28,851 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: too big, then, you know, employee will feel that. Why 222 00:09:31,291 --> 00:09:33,521 Speaker 2: am I doing the same job as a peer but 223 00:09:33,530 --> 00:09:36,452 Speaker 2: getting very different salaries? I think two times is quite 224 00:09:36,461 --> 00:09:39,492 Speaker 2: extreme because imagine an accountant getting two times to pay 225 00:09:39,502 --> 00:09:40,841 Speaker 2: off another accountant and 226 00:09:40,943 --> 00:09:44,132 Speaker 2: pretty much similar job. So there is a certain best 227 00:09:44,143 --> 00:09:46,443 Speaker 2: practice if you will to the width of the ban, 228 00:09:46,453 --> 00:09:48,544 Speaker 2: it has to be within a certain reasonable limit. In 229 00:09:48,554 --> 00:09:51,773 Speaker 2: the past, people used to think that 50% is reasonable. 230 00:09:51,783 --> 00:09:55,103 Speaker 1: So let's say it would be like 4000 to 6000, correct? 231 00:09:55,114 --> 00:09:57,513 Speaker 2: But in recent times, the whole notion of paying for 232 00:09:57,523 --> 00:10:00,393 Speaker 2: skills is bigger than ever in the market. The notion 233 00:10:00,403 --> 00:10:02,522 Speaker 2: that two persons doing the same job can have different 234 00:10:02,533 --> 00:10:05,143 Speaker 2: portfolio experience and skills. There is a bit of a 235 00:10:05,153 --> 00:10:06,804 Speaker 2: mindset to have a bit more flexibility. 236 00:10:06,905 --> 00:10:10,096 Speaker 2: So nowadays we see ranges about 70% range spread and 237 00:10:10,106 --> 00:10:11,165 Speaker 2: that is still reasonable. 238 00:10:11,176 --> 00:10:13,684 Speaker 1: This goes back to the point about job sizing because 239 00:10:13,695 --> 00:10:15,645 Speaker 1: each role you might be doing a little bit differently, 240 00:10:15,655 --> 00:10:17,486 Speaker 1: you come in with different skill set. So you want 241 00:10:17,495 --> 00:10:18,926 Speaker 1: to have that flexibility to be able to pay the 242 00:10:18,934 --> 00:10:19,606 Speaker 1: people a bit more 243 00:10:19,616 --> 00:10:23,926 Speaker 2: especially in an organization where it is nimble and doesn't 244 00:10:23,934 --> 00:10:27,315 Speaker 2: want to have an overly hierarchical structure where you promote people. 245 00:10:27,325 --> 00:10:29,505 Speaker 2: At every instance, if you are on a more broad 246 00:10:29,515 --> 00:10:32,596 Speaker 2: based structure, which is less hierarchical, then at the same be, 247 00:10:32,867 --> 00:10:35,637 Speaker 2: you can have quite a lot of different jobs instead 248 00:10:35,648 --> 00:10:38,487 Speaker 2: of splitting them across smaller bands. And that is where 249 00:10:38,497 --> 00:10:40,708 Speaker 2: you have a larger range spread so that there's flexibility 250 00:10:40,718 --> 00:10:42,487 Speaker 2: to pay each of these jobs slightly differently. 251 00:10:43,018 --> 00:10:45,307 Speaker 1: So at the job interview, why is it that when 252 00:10:45,317 --> 00:10:48,528 Speaker 1: some applicants ask hr or the hiring manager, what is 253 00:10:48,538 --> 00:10:51,288 Speaker 1: the salary ban for my job? Your companies are not 254 00:10:51,297 --> 00:10:54,117 Speaker 1: willing to reveal that. And you only know that ban 255 00:10:54,127 --> 00:10:55,898 Speaker 1: once you start the job 256 00:10:55,908 --> 00:10:57,977 Speaker 2: to be frank with you in a lot of companies, 257 00:10:57,987 --> 00:10:58,727 Speaker 2: employees don't, 258 00:10:58,830 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: even though the savvy ranges after they join the company, 259 00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:03,700 Speaker 2: usually it is made known to their managers but not 260 00:11:03,710 --> 00:11:07,030 Speaker 2: the employees themselves. But I think your question regarding pay 261 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:10,330 Speaker 2: transparency still stands and there are a few reasons why 262 00:11:10,340 --> 00:11:13,830 Speaker 2: companies generally don't disclose pay ranges to employees. Firstly, it 263 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,819 Speaker 2: is competitive knowledge. If your competitor knows how much you 264 00:11:16,830 --> 00:11:19,109 Speaker 2: are paying, it's very easy for them to go to 265 00:11:19,119 --> 00:11:22,699 Speaker 2: their management and articulate and justify a higher range, for example. 266 00:11:22,859 --> 00:11:24,689 Speaker 2: And that creates an elbow spiral in the market 267 00:11:24,791 --> 00:11:28,111 Speaker 2: actually, which is not very healthy. The second point is 268 00:11:28,122 --> 00:11:32,312 Speaker 2: that also humans being humans, sometimes we are not easily 269 00:11:32,322 --> 00:11:35,011 Speaker 2: satisfied and there are surveys out there that shows that 270 00:11:35,021 --> 00:11:37,590 Speaker 2: most employees out there feel that they are above average 271 00:11:37,601 --> 00:11:39,851 Speaker 2: in performance. But all of us know that average is 272 00:11:39,861 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: defined by where majority of people is anyway. If everybody 273 00:11:42,851 --> 00:11:45,091 Speaker 2: thinks that they are above average, actually they are average, 274 00:11:45,101 --> 00:11:48,202 Speaker 2: but most people tend to have a pretty high impression 275 00:11:48,211 --> 00:11:50,692 Speaker 2: of their own capabilities. Be it rightly or wrongly 276 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,299 Speaker 2: when the salary ranges are being disclosed to employees. the 277 00:11:54,309 --> 00:11:56,340 Speaker 2: challenge is that they might not like where they are 278 00:11:56,349 --> 00:11:59,369 Speaker 2: within the range. Yeah, and that's because it can either 279 00:11:59,380 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: be that the impression of themselves is bias or perhaps 280 00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:04,659 Speaker 2: their manager's assessment of them is not 281 00:12:04,669 --> 00:12:05,159 Speaker 2: correct. 282 00:12:05,169 --> 00:12:07,210 Speaker 1: Yeah, because a group of people will feel that this 283 00:12:07,219 --> 00:12:09,419 Speaker 1: is aspirational, right? So if I know what is the 284 00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:12,299 Speaker 1: top end of that salary, then it means if I'm 285 00:12:12,309 --> 00:12:15,059 Speaker 1: quite close to that, there's a chance of a promotion coming. 286 00:12:15,070 --> 00:12:17,169 Speaker 1: But you are right. I think most people would 287 00:12:17,273 --> 00:12:20,213 Speaker 1: look at where they stand within the salary band and 288 00:12:20,223 --> 00:12:22,663 Speaker 1: they will go. Why am I so far away from 289 00:12:22,672 --> 00:12:25,793 Speaker 1: the upper limit? Or I should have known where I 290 00:12:25,802 --> 00:12:28,453 Speaker 1: am in this range before I commit to the job. 291 00:12:28,463 --> 00:12:30,953 Speaker 2: I have also seen employees who are at the top 292 00:12:30,963 --> 00:12:32,922 Speaker 2: of their range and they are not happy their mindset. 293 00:12:32,932 --> 00:12:35,033 Speaker 2: Is that, oh, the range is wrong because I'm hitting 294 00:12:35,043 --> 00:12:38,453 Speaker 2: the ceiling soon. So disclosing the range, especially in Asia 295 00:12:38,463 --> 00:12:41,773 Speaker 2: where the employees market rather than an employer's market always 296 00:12:41,783 --> 00:12:43,322 Speaker 2: results in more unhappiness. 297 00:12:43,666 --> 00:12:46,976 Speaker 2: Think about this analogy, when our kids go to school, 298 00:12:46,986 --> 00:12:49,776 Speaker 2: the range is being communicated, they know that they assess 299 00:12:49,785 --> 00:12:52,856 Speaker 2: between 1 to 100. For example, it is very transparent 300 00:12:52,866 --> 00:12:55,385 Speaker 2: and they know where they stand. Exactly right. If let's 301 00:12:55,395 --> 00:12:58,244 Speaker 2: say the average they get 7580 so and so forth, 302 00:12:58,296 --> 00:13:01,705 Speaker 2: it's very transparent because it is entirely unbiased. Everybody sits 303 00:13:01,716 --> 00:13:04,346 Speaker 2: through the same examination. But if you think about employment 304 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:06,825 Speaker 2: is different, you have people with different job history, they 305 00:13:06,835 --> 00:13:09,245 Speaker 2: can come from different companies. And guess what? When you 306 00:13:09,255 --> 00:13:09,966 Speaker 2: need to hire 307 00:13:10,059 --> 00:13:12,238 Speaker 2: people from the market, you have to accept the fact 308 00:13:12,249 --> 00:13:15,338 Speaker 2: that they have an existing pay. You can't just determine 309 00:13:15,348 --> 00:13:17,468 Speaker 2: a certain pay level that you wish to pay as 310 00:13:17,479 --> 00:13:19,718 Speaker 2: an aspiration and force it on others. They may not 311 00:13:19,729 --> 00:13:22,689 Speaker 2: want to join you because the increment to join your 312 00:13:22,698 --> 00:13:25,968 Speaker 2: company may be small or maybe even a negative increment. Yeah. 313 00:13:25,979 --> 00:13:29,478 Speaker 2: So you have to take into account people's previous employment paycheck. 314 00:13:29,489 --> 00:13:31,828 Speaker 2: And because of that, there's some inequity built into the 315 00:13:31,838 --> 00:13:34,539 Speaker 2: system where people join different salaries, regardless of whether their 316 00:13:34,549 --> 00:13:36,358 Speaker 2: skills are equal. So with a system, 317 00:13:36,452 --> 00:13:39,831 Speaker 2: it is not completely unbiased. Then transparency is an issue. 318 00:13:39,841 --> 00:13:40,502 Speaker 1: We know that these 319 00:13:40,511 --> 00:13:42,812 Speaker 1: benchmarks were not plucked from the air, right? We know 320 00:13:42,822 --> 00:13:45,281 Speaker 1: that they are all properly constructed. There's reasons for it, 321 00:13:45,291 --> 00:13:47,290 Speaker 1: we know why the bands are there, but yet there's 322 00:13:47,302 --> 00:13:51,211 Speaker 1: still inequity. What do companies typically do or try on 323 00:13:51,221 --> 00:13:52,192 Speaker 1: their own to reduce this 324 00:13:52,202 --> 00:13:52,831 Speaker 1: inequity. 325 00:13:52,841 --> 00:13:55,660 Speaker 2: Yes, there's inequity because people don't come in with the 326 00:13:55,671 --> 00:13:58,702 Speaker 2: same pay and managers may not be completely all knowing 327 00:13:58,711 --> 00:14:00,561 Speaker 2: in terms of assessing a person's performance at the end 328 00:14:00,572 --> 00:14:02,762 Speaker 2: of the year. So that's definitely, that's sort of, 329 00:14:03,655 --> 00:14:07,075 Speaker 2: to be honest, it probably cannot be completely eliminated. But 330 00:14:07,085 --> 00:14:09,944 Speaker 2: there are certain things that the organization can do and 331 00:14:09,955 --> 00:14:12,825 Speaker 2: it's also a part that employees can play in order 332 00:14:12,835 --> 00:14:15,544 Speaker 2: to help the company as well. Because in the absence 333 00:14:15,554 --> 00:14:18,145 Speaker 2: of complete knowledge, what the organization needs to do is 334 00:14:18,155 --> 00:14:21,635 Speaker 2: to continue to work on skills frameworks, to understand where 335 00:14:21,645 --> 00:14:24,594 Speaker 2: employees stand, in terms of their proficiency, they need to 336 00:14:24,604 --> 00:14:26,724 Speaker 2: provide employees with the right opportunity so that they can 337 00:14:26,734 --> 00:14:29,145 Speaker 2: actually see employees exercise their strengths, right. 338 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,309 Speaker 2: So the opportunities need to be a bit more equitable, 339 00:14:32,390 --> 00:14:34,669 Speaker 2: the way to assess skills and performance needs to be 340 00:14:34,679 --> 00:14:37,099 Speaker 2: a bit more robust. Managers need to be trained to 341 00:14:37,109 --> 00:14:40,140 Speaker 2: be not afraid of employees. I think sometimes managers are 342 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:43,109 Speaker 2: held at ransom by employees threatening to leave as well, 343 00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:45,510 Speaker 2: or some managers may not have the moral courage to 344 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,590 Speaker 2: give employees a fair assessment of their strengths as well 345 00:14:48,599 --> 00:14:51,190 Speaker 2: as weakness even though that helps employee. So there are 346 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,669 Speaker 2: things that the organization can do to get to a 347 00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:56,460 Speaker 2: better picture of where the performance is. And then 348 00:14:56,609 --> 00:14:59,309 Speaker 2: from that point in time, the organization will also need 349 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,229 Speaker 2: to make some investments in order to correct any gap 350 00:15:02,239 --> 00:15:05,559 Speaker 2: where the performance actually indicates that the employee deserves that. 351 00:15:05,570 --> 00:15:09,309 Speaker 2: Correction organizations where you have long serving employees, sometimes the 352 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,409 Speaker 2: long serving employees could be paid lower than employees that 353 00:15:12,419 --> 00:15:15,510 Speaker 2: are newly hired from the market. Just because you move 354 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,710 Speaker 2: across companies a little more often, you tend to get 355 00:15:17,719 --> 00:15:19,710 Speaker 2: a bit more of a pay rise. Yeah, that is 356 00:15:19,719 --> 00:15:23,710 Speaker 2: the reality. We cannot deny that organizations can consciously 357 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: make an effort to set aside a separate pot of 358 00:15:26,330 --> 00:15:28,919 Speaker 2: money for the purpose of pay correction on top of 359 00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: the usual Merit Agreement cycle. 360 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: So it means this pot of money could be set 361 00:15:32,770 --> 00:15:35,890 Speaker 1: aside for retention. Basically to say that if you stay 362 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,780 Speaker 1: on and then I can readjust your pay again, I 363 00:15:38,789 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: can have a look at it and everything. But these 364 00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:43,609 Speaker 1: kind of conversations can also be a bit awkward because 365 00:15:43,619 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: then the employee will be, well, you should have thought 366 00:15:46,409 --> 00:15:50,090 Speaker 1: about it before I think of leaving, right? So I 367 00:15:50,950 --> 00:15:50,979 Speaker 1: mean 368 00:15:51,179 --> 00:15:53,289 Speaker 1: to the next point, every time we come to that 369 00:15:53,299 --> 00:15:56,770 Speaker 1: performance review stage, every year, every company will have that 370 00:15:56,780 --> 00:16:00,650 Speaker 1: annual performance review, then managers will look at, ok, this year, 371 00:16:00,659 --> 00:16:03,559 Speaker 1: this is your performance grade. So of course, performance grade 372 00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:06,479 Speaker 1: will come together with either a promotion or it will 373 00:16:06,489 --> 00:16:09,809 Speaker 1: determine the size of your bonus. Then with a promotion 374 00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: comes the idea of salary increments. But typically managers are 375 00:16:13,330 --> 00:16:18,130 Speaker 1: always given one limited pot of money. That they can 376 00:16:18,390 --> 00:16:22,289 Speaker 1: disseminate among their team members. What goes through a manager's 377 00:16:22,299 --> 00:16:25,450 Speaker 1: mind when they are dividing this limited pot of money? 378 00:16:25,460 --> 00:16:28,940 Speaker 1: Who gets what bonus? Who gets the increment? If you 379 00:16:28,950 --> 00:16:31,179 Speaker 1: get the increment, then maybe someone else gets the bonus 380 00:16:31,190 --> 00:16:33,450 Speaker 1: or something. What goes through their minds? 381 00:16:33,739 --> 00:16:36,609 Speaker 2: I think there are firstly two structures out there. 382 00:16:36,859 --> 00:16:39,090 Speaker 2: One is that like you said, a pot is given 383 00:16:39,099 --> 00:16:42,539 Speaker 2: to a department head to then disseminate to employees. Be 384 00:16:42,549 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 2: it the promotion increment. So and so forth. The more 385 00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: traditional approach, which is nowadays less in fashion 386 00:16:48,979 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: is one where it is a lot more structure where 387 00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:54,109 Speaker 2: managers are not given a part, but rather they are 388 00:16:54,119 --> 00:16:57,359 Speaker 2: given a performance rating curve. So you decide which employees 389 00:16:57,369 --> 00:16:59,239 Speaker 2: would be a high performers, which will be your average 390 00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: performers and so forth. And the curve is pretty restrictive. 391 00:17:02,289 --> 00:17:04,780 Speaker 2: You can't have too many people being rated as above average, 392 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:07,968 Speaker 2: for example. And then thereafter, based on the curve, there 393 00:17:07,979 --> 00:17:09,550 Speaker 2: will be guidance to say that if you are a 394 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,010 Speaker 2: high performer, you get X number of months of bonus 395 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:15,310 Speaker 2: or X percent of increment. So that is heavily governed 396 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: by hr structures. 397 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,349 Speaker 2: And the curve ensures that the company doesn't run our 398 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,260 Speaker 2: budget because you cannot rate everybody above average, for example. 399 00:17:22,410 --> 00:17:24,659 Speaker 2: But that has been under a lot of fire in 400 00:17:24,670 --> 00:17:27,829 Speaker 2: recent years because it's very rigid and in small teams 401 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:30,699 Speaker 2: especially sometimes you don't exactly have, 402 00:17:30,709 --> 00:17:32,899 Speaker 1: you can't put every five people on the bell curve. Correct. 403 00:17:32,910 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 2: Correct. Exactly. Yeah. Or even if you have 20 people, right. Yeah, 404 00:17:35,729 --> 00:17:38,050 Speaker 2: just to say that you have exactly 14 persons who 405 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:40,020 Speaker 2: are average performer or whatever. Correct. 406 00:17:40,104 --> 00:17:42,464 Speaker 2: So it's very limiting. It is in a way force 407 00:17:42,484 --> 00:17:44,353 Speaker 2: fitting people into the curve. So therefore, a lot of 408 00:17:44,364 --> 00:17:47,304 Speaker 2: organizations have moved to the model you described, which is 409 00:17:47,314 --> 00:17:50,244 Speaker 2: that they give management a pot for your department based 410 00:17:50,255 --> 00:17:53,165 Speaker 2: on how your department has performed against a scorecard. And 411 00:17:53,175 --> 00:17:55,744 Speaker 2: with that part, there's a lot of flexibility regarding how 412 00:17:55,755 --> 00:17:59,344 Speaker 2: you then disseminate it. Now, obviously, the success factor here 413 00:17:59,354 --> 00:18:02,025 Speaker 2: is that the manager must adhere to certain good principles 414 00:18:02,035 --> 00:18:03,364 Speaker 2: in order to be able to distribute 415 00:18:03,449 --> 00:18:05,938 Speaker 2: in an equitable manner as well as a manner that 416 00:18:05,949 --> 00:18:09,569 Speaker 2: drives pay for performance. But this approach is actually gaining 417 00:18:09,579 --> 00:18:12,310 Speaker 2: traction in the market. Now, your question regarding what the 418 00:18:12,319 --> 00:18:15,369 Speaker 2: manager needs to look for. Typically, the hr department wouldn't 419 00:18:15,380 --> 00:18:17,300 Speaker 2: leave the manager to do this on their own as 420 00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:20,390 Speaker 2: well without support. So usually hr would coach the manager 421 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,550 Speaker 2: or provide certain broad guidelines while leaving the flexibility to 422 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,189 Speaker 2: the manager. But the manager must have a very clear 423 00:18:26,199 --> 00:18:26,698 Speaker 2: idea of 424 00:18:26,795 --> 00:18:29,305 Speaker 2: we are the really strong performers and who are the 425 00:18:29,314 --> 00:18:32,655 Speaker 2: ones who may not have performed well this year, but 426 00:18:32,665 --> 00:18:35,234 Speaker 2: they have the skill sets as needed for the following year. 427 00:18:35,354 --> 00:18:38,514 Speaker 2: And they need to also be really objective if let's 428 00:18:38,525 --> 00:18:41,524 Speaker 2: say a person has the capability to take on the 429 00:18:41,535 --> 00:18:44,944 Speaker 2: next role. You should give the person that promotion, but 430 00:18:44,954 --> 00:18:47,035 Speaker 2: you wouldn't short change. The person does a bonus just 431 00:18:47,045 --> 00:18:49,454 Speaker 2: because you want to appease somebody else who didn't get 432 00:18:49,464 --> 00:18:50,054 Speaker 2: a promotion. 433 00:18:50,369 --> 00:18:52,430 Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, employees can still 434 00:18:52,439 --> 00:18:54,469 Speaker 2: decide whether they want to stay on or not because 435 00:18:54,479 --> 00:18:56,890 Speaker 1: some people might say that it is quite unfair. If, 436 00:18:56,910 --> 00:18:59,329 Speaker 1: let's say, for example, I feel that I'm up for 437 00:18:59,339 --> 00:19:02,180 Speaker 1: a promotion, I feel that I have been doing already 438 00:19:02,189 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: a lot more and I should be properly remunerated and 439 00:19:05,569 --> 00:19:06,938 Speaker 1: given that job title. But 440 00:19:07,199 --> 00:19:10,339 Speaker 1: maybe it's someone else's turn because they have already been 441 00:19:10,349 --> 00:19:13,419 Speaker 1: here extra one or two years ahead of me. Yeah. 442 00:19:13,689 --> 00:19:17,579 Speaker 1: And so to appease me, my boss would then decide that, ok, 443 00:19:17,589 --> 00:19:20,169 Speaker 1: I'll give Tiffany the bonus this year instead. But the 444 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:22,979 Speaker 1: person who gets the promotion might be like, hey, but 445 00:19:22,989 --> 00:19:24,619 Speaker 1: I did X number of projects. 446 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:26,020 Speaker 1: There's no perfect system 447 00:19:28,775 --> 00:19:31,204 Speaker 1: and everyone all thinks that they are doing very well. 448 00:19:31,214 --> 00:19:34,305 Speaker 2: One thing that I feel would greatly help employees is 449 00:19:34,314 --> 00:19:38,385 Speaker 2: the measures being very upfront and transparent regarding the employee 450 00:19:38,395 --> 00:19:41,604 Speaker 2: strength and weaknesses and also having that regular catch up 451 00:19:41,614 --> 00:19:43,564 Speaker 2: with employees. That would definitely help because I've seen a 452 00:19:43,574 --> 00:19:46,895 Speaker 2: couple of organizations where this whole issue is made worse 453 00:19:46,905 --> 00:19:49,114 Speaker 2: by the managers telling employees they have done a good 454 00:19:49,125 --> 00:19:51,204 Speaker 2: job every single time they have a performance review. 455 00:19:51,459 --> 00:19:53,300 Speaker 2: And then at the end of the year. Suddenly they 456 00:19:53,310 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: tell the employers, hey, look, you're an average performer. Yeah, 457 00:19:55,689 --> 00:19:57,958 Speaker 2: that is a big issue. And that is because the 458 00:19:57,969 --> 00:20:00,420 Speaker 2: managers either do not have a clear picture of where 459 00:20:00,430 --> 00:20:04,079 Speaker 2: the employees is or the managers is unwilling to have 460 00:20:04,089 --> 00:20:07,229 Speaker 2: their frank conversation. Employees. If managers do give employees very 461 00:20:07,239 --> 00:20:09,550 Speaker 2: frank feedback regarding where they are and how they need 462 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,619 Speaker 2: to develop themselves, then the outcome when it comes to 463 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:15,010 Speaker 2: pay promotion or performance rating at the end of the 464 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:17,500 Speaker 2: year will be less of a surprise to employees. 465 00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:18,770 Speaker 1: I think also the reasons for 466 00:20:18,834 --> 00:20:22,125 Speaker 1: for someone to stay on. It goes beyond salaries. Salary 467 00:20:22,135 --> 00:20:24,165 Speaker 1: is a huge part of it and how we feel 468 00:20:24,175 --> 00:20:26,214 Speaker 1: about what we are getting, whether it's equitable or not 469 00:20:26,224 --> 00:20:28,334 Speaker 1: fair or not is one big part. But there are 470 00:20:28,344 --> 00:20:31,603 Speaker 1: also other things that maybe more aspirational or developmental in 471 00:20:31,614 --> 00:20:34,224 Speaker 1: nature and that can come into those conversations too. So 472 00:20:34,234 --> 00:20:36,525 Speaker 1: then maybe you feel like, ok, there's still a lot 473 00:20:36,535 --> 00:20:38,454 Speaker 1: of room for me to grow. I'm not just going 474 00:20:38,464 --> 00:20:39,765 Speaker 1: to slot for one more year just so I can 475 00:20:39,775 --> 00:20:42,765 Speaker 1: get a pay pump. But actually there are for a paper. Yeah, 476 00:20:42,785 --> 00:20:45,604 Speaker 1: hope for a pay pump. Ok, let's get it very 477 00:20:45,614 --> 00:20:45,974 Speaker 1: clear 478 00:20:46,209 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: really out of your hands. So if today employees can 479 00:20:49,729 --> 00:20:52,020 Speaker 1: see that it's in a fuller picture for themselves, for 480 00:20:52,030 --> 00:20:54,270 Speaker 1: their own development, then these conversations that we have with 481 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,819 Speaker 1: the managers can really be more fruitful because it's a 482 00:20:56,829 --> 00:20:59,688 Speaker 1: cycle you grow and then you get to develop yourself 483 00:20:59,699 --> 00:21:01,619 Speaker 1: and then the company gets the benefit of it and 484 00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:04,228 Speaker 1: then they justifies, oh, maybe the pay B should be 485 00:21:04,239 --> 00:21:07,270 Speaker 1: coming to you. So it's like a cycle that goes around. 486 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,589 Speaker 1: So it's getting increasingly common for more people to advocate 487 00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:13,500 Speaker 1: for themselves, asking for more salaries, especially 488 00:21:13,584 --> 00:21:15,635 Speaker 1: after they have done a really good year. Or maybe 489 00:21:15,645 --> 00:21:17,885 Speaker 1: even during the regular check ins. How do you do 490 00:21:17,895 --> 00:21:20,484 Speaker 1: it so that you have some chance of success? Because 491 00:21:20,494 --> 00:21:22,525 Speaker 1: you can't just go to your boss and say, oh 492 00:21:22,535 --> 00:21:24,785 Speaker 1: by the way, I know me and this other person, 493 00:21:24,795 --> 00:21:27,114 Speaker 1: we are doing the same job and this other person 494 00:21:27,125 --> 00:21:29,094 Speaker 1: is doing very well. But I think I deserve the 495 00:21:29,104 --> 00:21:29,805 Speaker 1: pay raise. 496 00:21:29,814 --> 00:21:33,704 Speaker 2: The Asian culture historically is one where we are less confrontational. 497 00:21:33,714 --> 00:21:36,385 Speaker 2: It's not an easy conversation for a lot of us 498 00:21:36,395 --> 00:21:39,044 Speaker 2: to have with our managers. However, there is a point 499 00:21:39,055 --> 00:21:40,885 Speaker 2: in time like you said, where you may need to 500 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:44,339 Speaker 2: approach your manager and speak about compensation. I would say 501 00:21:44,349 --> 00:21:47,020 Speaker 2: that as a people manager myself, I always prefer employees 502 00:21:47,030 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: to do that because you're giving the company a chance 503 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:51,739 Speaker 2: to re look at your pay without you having to 504 00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:55,050 Speaker 2: resign first. If you resign first and the company makes 505 00:21:55,060 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 2: a counter offer, it gets a bit too mercenary in 506 00:21:57,130 --> 00:21:59,410 Speaker 2: my view. I think so. Yeah. And also we have 507 00:21:59,420 --> 00:22:01,899 Speaker 2: studies to show that if employees stay on for just 508 00:22:01,910 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 2: pay alone. Then in 1.5 years, they usually will leave again. 509 00:22:05,949 --> 00:22:08,260 Speaker 2: So therefore, if you really love the company, maybe 510 00:22:08,334 --> 00:22:10,514 Speaker 2: you like your job, you like the work-life balance that 511 00:22:10,525 --> 00:22:12,504 Speaker 2: it gives you, you like your clients, you like your 512 00:22:12,515 --> 00:22:15,714 Speaker 2: managers and the culture, then you would want to be 513 00:22:15,724 --> 00:22:18,714 Speaker 2: transparent with your boss regarding your unhappiness with the pay 514 00:22:18,724 --> 00:22:21,014 Speaker 2: if that is something that's affecting your engagement. And I 515 00:22:21,025 --> 00:22:22,984 Speaker 2: think that as managers and the company, we need to 516 00:22:22,994 --> 00:22:25,774 Speaker 2: also look at that as the employees helping us rather 517 00:22:25,785 --> 00:22:28,574 Speaker 2: than see it with a lot of negative connotation. The 518 00:22:28,584 --> 00:22:30,775 Speaker 2: other thing is that you will also need to understand 519 00:22:30,785 --> 00:22:33,444 Speaker 2: your strengths and how it fits in with the team 520 00:22:33,454 --> 00:22:35,614 Speaker 2: and the organization. What value can you bring? 521 00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:38,089 Speaker 2: So there is always a way for you to try 522 00:22:38,099 --> 00:22:41,270 Speaker 2: to match your strengths to the focus of the organization 523 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,750 Speaker 2: in the upcoming year. Say, for example, if you know 524 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,770 Speaker 2: that the organization is expanding a certain industry and you 525 00:22:46,790 --> 00:22:48,619 Speaker 2: are very well versed in the industry, you could be 526 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:50,609 Speaker 2: very frank with your managers to say, can I take 527 00:22:50,619 --> 00:22:53,189 Speaker 2: on something next year? Can I spearhead something next year? 528 00:22:53,199 --> 00:22:54,989 Speaker 2: And I would like to discuss my pay as well, 529 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: so and so forth. So it's a bit of give 530 00:22:56,449 --> 00:22:58,550 Speaker 2: and take. I see. Yeah, I think the first tip 531 00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,810 Speaker 2: I can give is to come from it from a 532 00:22:59,819 --> 00:23:00,510 Speaker 2: very reasonable 533 00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:03,150 Speaker 2: personal anger. The second one is to give as you take. 534 00:23:03,219 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 2: So suggest to your manager what you could take on 535 00:23:05,410 --> 00:23:08,900 Speaker 2: additionally and how this could be also an opportunity as 536 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: the organization correct your pay to get more out of 537 00:23:11,290 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: your capabilities as well. 538 00:23:12,689 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so rather than say, please pay me more so 539 00:23:15,569 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: that I can do more. You should always do first 540 00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: offer show initiative for more projects, more roles and everything 541 00:23:22,130 --> 00:23:24,430 Speaker 1: rather than come across as try to hold the boss 542 00:23:24,439 --> 00:23:25,319 Speaker 1: at ransom. To say 543 00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:27,389 Speaker 1: that if you don't give me, I'm not going to 544 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,290 Speaker 1: do it. Ok. So would you say that the best 545 00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:34,290 Speaker 1: way to even negotiate a salary is to actually start high? 546 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,459 Speaker 1: That means when I come into the company, I need 547 00:23:36,469 --> 00:23:39,239 Speaker 1: to try and negotiate as high as I can so 548 00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:40,930 Speaker 1: that I never would have to play catch up with 549 00:23:40,939 --> 00:23:41,599 Speaker 1: somebody else. 550 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,300 Speaker 2: That's an interesting strategy. Actually, 551 00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:44,329 Speaker 1: I 552 00:23:44,390 --> 00:23:46,420 Speaker 1: thought it is something that everybody does negotiate 553 00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:47,099 Speaker 1: high. First. 554 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:49,969 Speaker 2: I know of companies where once an employee in the system, 555 00:23:50,199 --> 00:23:52,500 Speaker 2: there's a lot of frameworks that govern the pay increments 556 00:23:52,510 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: of the person. So it's harder to request for an 557 00:23:55,050 --> 00:23:57,770 Speaker 2: off cycle increment because the manager will always have to 558 00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:00,859 Speaker 2: write a business case justify to a lot of top managers. 559 00:24:00,869 --> 00:24:03,329 Speaker 2: Why you need to do something different for this person 560 00:24:03,339 --> 00:24:05,709 Speaker 2: outside of the usual cycle as compared to other employees, 561 00:24:05,719 --> 00:24:08,510 Speaker 2: a lot of hiring managers, they prefer to write size 562 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,739 Speaker 2: a person's pay at the point of entrance to the 563 00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:13,369 Speaker 2: company because that is where they can request for a budget. 564 00:24:13,380 --> 00:24:14,859 Speaker 2: And it's not an off cycle thing. 565 00:24:15,130 --> 00:24:18,149 Speaker 2: When employees join an organization provided you're not a fresh grad, right? 566 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,810 Speaker 2: If you feel that your current pay is really far 567 00:24:20,819 --> 00:24:23,290 Speaker 2: below market and if the company asks you for your 568 00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:26,310 Speaker 2: last paycheck, actually, you can choose not to give, tell them, look, 569 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 2: make me a package that if you would justify the 570 00:24:29,130 --> 00:24:31,079 Speaker 2: skill sets I bring to the table, tell me for 571 00:24:31,089 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 2: this work that I'm going to do and the capabilities 572 00:24:33,209 --> 00:24:35,310 Speaker 2: that I have. What is a fair wage for me? 573 00:24:35,319 --> 00:24:37,530 Speaker 2: Determine that instead of taking my previous pay 574 00:24:37,613 --> 00:24:39,392 Speaker 2: and just adding a X percent on top of it. 575 00:24:39,473 --> 00:24:40,672 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people they are saying, 576 00:24:40,682 --> 00:24:43,262 Speaker 1: let's just move jobs every few years to get a 577 00:24:43,272 --> 00:24:46,032 Speaker 1: pay pump up and up again. Personally, I don't really 578 00:24:46,042 --> 00:24:48,882 Speaker 1: advocate for that. If moving for the pay is the 579 00:24:48,892 --> 00:24:51,572 Speaker 1: only reason when we change jobs, you should always make 580 00:24:51,583 --> 00:24:54,272 Speaker 1: that change for multiple reasons, not just because of the pay. 581 00:24:54,363 --> 00:24:56,592 Speaker 1: All right, because if not, you will find that after 582 00:24:56,603 --> 00:24:58,713 Speaker 1: a while you hit a ceiling and you don't know 583 00:24:58,723 --> 00:24:59,993 Speaker 1: where to go and you don't have 584 00:25:00,095 --> 00:25:02,536 Speaker 1: the depth of experience to back up your pay. People 585 00:25:02,546 --> 00:25:04,615 Speaker 1: will be wondering you are asking for this high amount, 586 00:25:04,625 --> 00:25:07,395 Speaker 1: but what can you do? So thank you so much 587 00:25:07,406 --> 00:25:09,156 Speaker 1: for coming in and having this chat with us. I 588 00:25:09,166 --> 00:25:13,275 Speaker 1: think we really need to understand how salaries are determined, 589 00:25:13,286 --> 00:25:15,916 Speaker 1: how we can do better and how we can ask 590 00:25:15,926 --> 00:25:18,264 Speaker 1: for more. So, thank you, Lionel for coming in and 591 00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:19,066 Speaker 1: sharing with us. 592 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:19,456 Speaker 2: Thank 593 00:25:19,475 --> 00:25:19,535 Speaker 1: you. 594 00:25:19,546 --> 00:25:22,436 Speaker 2: You're welcome. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much, guys. 595 00:25:26,619 --> 00:25:30,540 Speaker 1: Welcome back. It's our ask me anything segment where Gerald 596 00:25:30,550 --> 00:25:34,239 Speaker 1: will take on some of the thorniest work related questions 597 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: you've sent us. 598 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,939 Speaker 1: Well, today's question was sent in from our listener who 599 00:25:40,949 --> 00:25:44,750 Speaker 1: I'll call Janet. Ok, Janet's question. Our mate, Jal caught 600 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,300 Speaker 1: me a bit off guard. Janet explained that she's been 601 00:25:47,310 --> 00:25:50,020 Speaker 1: working in the public service for more than a decade 602 00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:54,310 Speaker 1: doing administrative work. She has a child says she's happy 603 00:25:54,319 --> 00:25:57,829 Speaker 1: with her job, bosses and colleagues. She's also happy with 604 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:01,170 Speaker 1: her salary. She has good job stability and enjoys work 605 00:26:01,219 --> 00:26:02,619 Speaker 1: life balance at this 606 00:26:02,741 --> 00:26:06,352 Speaker 1: point. I'm wondering why does Janet have any problems there 607 00:26:06,362 --> 00:26:08,612 Speaker 1: that we can help her with? Right. Then she goes 608 00:26:08,621 --> 00:26:10,432 Speaker 1: on to say that she's worried. She says she's in 609 00:26:10,442 --> 00:26:13,021 Speaker 1: this job for so long and she doesn't know whether 610 00:26:13,092 --> 00:26:17,111 Speaker 1: eventually she will be displaced due to work transformation. She's 611 00:26:17,121 --> 00:26:20,621 Speaker 1: seen people doing rounds of internal transfers or move out 612 00:26:20,631 --> 00:26:24,241 Speaker 1: of the organization after a few years for better career growth, 613 00:26:24,472 --> 00:26:27,581 Speaker 1: but she doesn't see a push or pull factor to 614 00:26:27,592 --> 00:26:28,161 Speaker 1: do so. 615 00:26:28,394 --> 00:26:31,842 Speaker 1: And she's afraid to venture out into the unknown which 616 00:26:31,854 --> 00:26:34,582 Speaker 1: will rock the current stability that she enjoys at the 617 00:26:34,593 --> 00:26:36,644 Speaker 1: same time, she doesn't know if she has any other 618 00:26:36,654 --> 00:26:40,013 Speaker 1: skills for a different job scope. So Janet wants to know, 619 00:26:40,023 --> 00:26:42,843 Speaker 1: is she on a career suicide if she continues to 620 00:26:42,854 --> 00:26:45,484 Speaker 1: stay in this job? Gerald? Can I just say that? Firstly, 621 00:26:45,494 --> 00:26:48,513 Speaker 1: it's so nice and refreshing that someone's written to her 622 00:26:48,523 --> 00:26:51,053 Speaker 1: saying that they actually like their job. But maybe we 623 00:26:51,063 --> 00:26:53,683 Speaker 1: can talk about why some people, they are fearful about 624 00:26:53,806 --> 00:26:59,036 Speaker 1: future in their current workspace. What's driving this fear for 625 00:26:59,046 --> 00:27:02,225 Speaker 1: Janet's case? There are few factors that are creating this 626 00:27:02,234 --> 00:27:04,865 Speaker 1: sense of fear about. Is it suicide? If I stay on? 627 00:27:04,875 --> 00:27:07,166 Speaker 1: She did say she's 40 years old. Has that anything 628 00:27:07,176 --> 00:27:09,326 Speaker 1: to do with? Definitely, it's a very common thing for 629 00:27:09,336 --> 00:27:10,805 Speaker 1: the layman to think that they must be at the 630 00:27:10,816 --> 00:27:13,586 Speaker 1: peak of their career at 40. Our skills, future credits, 631 00:27:13,595 --> 00:27:15,446 Speaker 1: we get more at the age of 40 is like 632 00:27:15,455 --> 00:27:17,865 Speaker 1: a little sign for us to upgrade our skills because 633 00:27:17,875 --> 00:27:19,245 Speaker 1: our skills have been stagnant 634 00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: and people always feel like after 40 they might be 635 00:27:22,209 --> 00:27:25,119 Speaker 1: discriminated against if they go for a job search. There's 636 00:27:25,130 --> 00:27:27,859 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on this 40 mark, right? In 637 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:30,229 Speaker 1: Janet's case, there are few other factors that come in 638 00:27:30,239 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: as well. Besides the age, the first one, she sees 639 00:27:32,650 --> 00:27:35,500 Speaker 1: her colleagues making changes. So there's a for more, you know, 640 00:27:35,569 --> 00:27:37,670 Speaker 1: you are missing out. How come my colleagues are moving on? 641 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,469 Speaker 1: And I'm not, I'm being left behind. And also because 642 00:27:40,479 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 1: she's been in a job for quite some time. 15 years. Yeah. Right. 643 00:27:43,352 --> 00:27:46,291 Speaker 1: 15 years of no job search. It possibly makes her 644 00:27:46,302 --> 00:27:49,972 Speaker 1: feel apprehensive or cautious about her chances if she goes 645 00:27:49,982 --> 00:27:52,432 Speaker 1: out to job search or because she's not done it, 646 00:27:52,442 --> 00:27:55,151 Speaker 1: she hasn't oiled her machine. Yeah. She probably hasn't written 647 00:27:55,161 --> 00:27:58,612 Speaker 1: her resume. Correct. Yeah, there's definitely some fear involved. Of course, 648 00:27:58,621 --> 00:28:01,291 Speaker 1: there's also this thing about the restructuring that's happening in 649 00:28:01,302 --> 00:28:03,761 Speaker 1: the workplace. So change is happening around her colleagues are 650 00:28:03,771 --> 00:28:06,771 Speaker 1: going away and then she's wondering, am I just here 651 00:28:06,781 --> 00:28:07,031 Speaker 1: and 652 00:28:07,163 --> 00:28:09,673 Speaker 1: to do something in order to help myself? But I 653 00:28:09,683 --> 00:28:11,854 Speaker 1: also have this fear that I cannot, I don't know 654 00:28:11,864 --> 00:28:14,583 Speaker 1: what I'm good at doing. I'm afraid I cannot survive 655 00:28:14,593 --> 00:28:17,083 Speaker 1: a job search and of course she's got a nice 656 00:28:17,093 --> 00:28:19,223 Speaker 1: work life balance. She's got a kid. Everything is ok. 657 00:28:19,234 --> 00:28:21,083 Speaker 1: She don't want to rock that boat. I see. So 658 00:28:21,093 --> 00:28:23,534 Speaker 1: that's why there's this feelings of conflict. She happens to 659 00:28:23,542 --> 00:28:26,374 Speaker 1: be in control and she's fearful that it will happen 660 00:28:26,384 --> 00:28:28,123 Speaker 1: at a time when she's not ready for it. Yes. Correct. 661 00:28:28,134 --> 00:28:30,783 Speaker 1: For Janet, it's good that she has these thoughts. Now, 662 00:28:30,975 --> 00:28:33,566 Speaker 1: em merging these thoughts needs to be focused toward a 663 00:28:33,576 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: future rather than towards fear. Ok. So talking about this 664 00:28:37,086 --> 00:28:39,806 Speaker 1: future thing, it sounds like she has good administrative skills. 665 00:28:39,816 --> 00:28:42,036 Speaker 1: That's why she's also in this position for a long time. 666 00:28:42,086 --> 00:28:43,995 Speaker 1: If we're good at something, why do we need to 667 00:28:44,005 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 1: be pushed at upscaling all the time. A lot of administrators, 668 00:28:47,446 --> 00:28:50,345 Speaker 1: they see themselves as generalists, which means that they do 669 00:28:50,355 --> 00:28:53,336 Speaker 1: many different things. Ok. And they often feel that because 670 00:28:53,345 --> 00:28:54,676 Speaker 1: it's so different 671 00:28:54,959 --> 00:28:58,969 Speaker 1: and so diverse, they don't have that one special thing 672 00:28:58,979 --> 00:29:02,459 Speaker 1: or one special superpower to tell to an employer what 673 00:29:02,469 --> 00:29:04,660 Speaker 1: they can do. And they also feel like they are 674 00:29:04,670 --> 00:29:06,650 Speaker 1: not so sure about what's that one job or the 675 00:29:06,660 --> 00:29:09,709 Speaker 1: next thing that they should be gearing towards because they've 676 00:29:09,719 --> 00:29:12,459 Speaker 1: done so many different things. Yeah, it's interesting because, like, 677 00:29:12,469 --> 00:29:15,540 Speaker 1: I'm a specialist and a lot of specialists might also 678 00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:17,540 Speaker 1: get to this age where they are 40 they worry 679 00:29:17,550 --> 00:29:19,599 Speaker 1: about the future. The grass is always greener on the 680 00:29:19,609 --> 00:29:20,089 Speaker 1: other side. Like a 681 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:22,569 Speaker 1: generalist would be better placed in having a job. Whereas 682 00:29:22,579 --> 00:29:25,319 Speaker 1: for somebody like me, a specialist, the number of jobs 683 00:29:25,329 --> 00:29:28,420 Speaker 1: that are available, the pool is a lot smaller. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 684 00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:31,079 Speaker 1: The generalist wish that they are specialist specialist think that 685 00:29:31,089 --> 00:29:33,569 Speaker 1: they should be a generalist as well when we want 686 00:29:33,579 --> 00:29:36,150 Speaker 1: to look at, like, in Janet's case being an administrator, 687 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,359 Speaker 1: I think it's important for her 688 00:29:37,609 --> 00:29:40,849 Speaker 1: to start to really identify amongst all the things that 689 00:29:40,859 --> 00:29:43,819 Speaker 1: she's doing, which are the portfolios or the tasks or 690 00:29:43,829 --> 00:29:46,550 Speaker 1: the responsibilities that she feels that she's very proficient in. 691 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,130 Speaker 1: She can bring this as a transferable to another company. 692 00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: She could also think about the things that she prefers 693 00:29:52,050 --> 00:29:54,170 Speaker 1: to do more of in terms of enjoyment in terms 694 00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:57,229 Speaker 1: of things that she feels more naturally inclined to do 695 00:29:57,390 --> 00:29:59,609 Speaker 1: because we all have preferences. We all do work. Some 696 00:29:59,619 --> 00:30:02,270 Speaker 1: work we prefer and some work we don't. So Jenna 697 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,390 Speaker 1: needs to have a sense of that. 698 00:30:03,895 --> 00:30:06,015 Speaker 1: And then maybe when she has thought about her work 699 00:30:06,026 --> 00:30:07,995 Speaker 1: in that sense, then she won't feel that much of 700 00:30:08,005 --> 00:30:10,546 Speaker 1: a generalist. She feels like there are some things that 701 00:30:10,556 --> 00:30:13,615 Speaker 1: sticks more with her and these things should be replicated. 702 00:30:13,625 --> 00:30:16,296 Speaker 1: If today she moves on into another rule and if 703 00:30:16,306 --> 00:30:19,094 Speaker 1: she's thinking of even upscaling, she doesn't have to pick 704 00:30:19,105 --> 00:30:21,026 Speaker 1: out a skill that she has never tried before. It 705 00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:24,026 Speaker 1: can be built into what she's already doing, right? We 706 00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:26,656 Speaker 1: always say that there is a difference between competency which 707 00:30:26,666 --> 00:30:29,245 Speaker 1: is proficiency and our interests, our preferences, 708 00:30:29,511 --> 00:30:31,182 Speaker 1: we could like to do something but we are not 709 00:30:31,192 --> 00:30:33,582 Speaker 1: good at doing it yet. And if that's the case, 710 00:30:33,592 --> 00:30:36,511 Speaker 1: then some upgrading some upscaling is needed because you want 711 00:30:36,521 --> 00:30:38,501 Speaker 1: to develop that you have the preference for it, but 712 00:30:38,511 --> 00:30:40,771 Speaker 1: you are not exposed or you're not trained in it. 713 00:30:40,781 --> 00:30:43,411 Speaker 1: And then at the same time, we talk about proficiency itself, 714 00:30:43,592 --> 00:30:46,131 Speaker 1: you could be doing something that you are really good 715 00:30:46,141 --> 00:30:48,121 Speaker 1: at doing. And that's the one that people recognize you 716 00:30:48,131 --> 00:30:50,121 Speaker 1: for that we need to pay for it. Yeah. But 717 00:30:50,131 --> 00:30:51,982 Speaker 1: it might not be what you really like to do. 718 00:30:52,052 --> 00:30:55,052 Speaker 1: So you need to have a clear distinction on this. OK? 719 00:30:55,339 --> 00:30:58,119 Speaker 1: Well, Janet, firstly, I want to assure you that it's 720 00:30:58,130 --> 00:31:00,170 Speaker 1: great that you love your job. Do continue to do 721 00:31:00,180 --> 00:31:02,310 Speaker 1: the best that you can at your work. And I 722 00:31:02,319 --> 00:31:06,079 Speaker 1: can see that work doesn't shape your identity. So that's healthy, 723 00:31:06,089 --> 00:31:09,199 Speaker 1: go and enjoy doing the things that you do with 724 00:31:09,209 --> 00:31:11,819 Speaker 1: some of these things resonate with you. Do let us 725 00:31:11,829 --> 00:31:14,579 Speaker 1: know again, we love to hear back from you and 726 00:31:14,589 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: if you out there also have a work related question, 727 00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: just like Janet, please write to us. We are at 728 00:31:19,729 --> 00:31:21,420 Speaker 1: CN A podcasts at media corp 729 00:31:21,484 --> 00:31:24,444 Speaker 1: dot com dot SG. We are also on Spotify Apple 730 00:31:24,454 --> 00:31:27,464 Speaker 1: podcasts and youtube as well. The team behind the work 731 00:31:27,474 --> 00:31:31,494 Speaker 1: it podcast is Christina Robert, Joan Chan, Juani Johari sa 732 00:31:31,635 --> 00:31:34,775 Speaker 1: we and to Yan Yan Sound mixing is by Cary 733 00:31:34,785 --> 00:31:39,295 Speaker 1: Lim video by Haida Amin. I'm and I'm Tiffany. Have 734 00:31:39,305 --> 00:31:40,744 Speaker 1: a good work week ahead.