Speaker 1: this is a C N. A
Speaker 2: podcast
Speaker 1: walk anywhere in Singapore and you're likely to come across
Speaker 1: a construction site. Singapore has been described as a concrete
Speaker 1: jungle and it is much like other big cities of
Speaker 1: the world and the constant building of homes and offices
Speaker 1: is an essential part of life here as the city
Speaker 1: continues to bustle and grow. But this construction produces a huge,
Speaker 1: huge amount of greenhouse gasses in the fight to stay
Speaker 1: on economic powerhouse. Can we simultaneously design buildings which help
Speaker 1: in the fight against climate change? What's the role of
Speaker 1: the architect in this process? And what does it mean
Speaker 1: for users of buildings like you and me?
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the climate conversations, I'm your host, julie, you.
Speaker 1: My guest today is li poly sano. He's an architect
Speaker 1: and urban designer behind some of the world's most sustainable buildings,
Speaker 1: skyscrapers and districts lee, welcome to the climate conversations.
Speaker 2: Hi Julia, thank you for well
Speaker 2: for me, it's a pleasure to be with you today.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Let's start with you. You know, you were born
Speaker 1: into an italian american family in New Jersey and you
Speaker 1: initially studied geology. What sparked your interest in architecture?
Speaker 2: Oh, well I probably should have stayed in geology,
Speaker 2: but what sparked my interest in architecture was a year
Speaker 2: long visit to europe, where I was heavily inspired by
Speaker 2: the architecture there and of course I had spent my
Speaker 2: whole childhood building things at the encouragement of my mother
Speaker 2: and the fact that both my grandfathers were builders as well.
Speaker 2: It came to me quite naturally, but never occurred to
Speaker 2: me that I should make a profession of it, but
Speaker 2: I'm very, very pleased that I did,
Speaker 2: and it's been a very, very enjoyable experience for me.
Speaker 1: You have such an impressive portfolio from designing London's first
Speaker 1: sustainable skyscraper, A Heron Tower, the Edge in Amsterdam, that
Speaker 1: the most sustainable building in the world to revision
Speaker 1: Tokyo Cross Park and much, much more. But of all
Speaker 1: the projects you've worked on or you're still working on,
Speaker 1: which are you most proud of and has been the
Speaker 1: most rewarding for you.
Speaker 2: So I can't actually give you an answer that says
Speaker 2: one particular project was the most rewarding.
Speaker 2: We look at projects in terms of where they're being
Speaker 2: built and we look at how our buildings can respond
Speaker 2: to that context and make a positive contribution socially, economically, environmentally,
Speaker 2: but most important for the people that are going to
Speaker 2: use the building and the future generations that we use
Speaker 2: the building.
Speaker 2: So in London, the Heron Tower was quite an achievement
Speaker 2: for us because we basically proved that you could do
Speaker 2: sustainable tall development. I'm very, very personally excited about our
Speaker 2: park nova project in Singapore at the moment, because it
Speaker 2: takes a sort of a focus around a life centric
Speaker 2: approach to creating a residential building that will have longevity
Speaker 2: and kate
Speaker 2: too many, many generations, even as people's way of living changes.
Speaker 2: So I don't really have one specific project that I
Speaker 2: can say, oh, that was
Speaker 1: hard to choose,
Speaker 2: It's hard to choose
Speaker 1: as an architect championing sustainability. Do you have any design,
Speaker 1: pet peeves concept or design that makes you go, oh,
Speaker 1: that's terrible for the environment or something that frustrates you
Speaker 1: the most.
Speaker 2: I think we have to do
Speaker 2: this with our eyes open, right? There are people at
Speaker 2: both ends of the spectrum of sustainability at the moment.
Speaker 2: There are the deniers in climate change and then there
Speaker 2: are people who are so passionate about it. They become
Speaker 2: very radicalized. You shouldn't use any sources of fossil fuel
Speaker 2: to generate energy and that's an extreme. And those two
Speaker 2: extremes tend to polarize the argument and they also tend
Speaker 2: to create stagnation,
Speaker 2: Right? Because you're locked in a position I think we
Speaker 2: need to realize is that climate has changed, our climate
Speaker 2: has changed, it's no longer about avoiding climate change. We've
Speaker 2: experienced the shift, the 1.5° is going to happen and
Speaker 2: there's no turning back from that. The question is
Speaker 2: how do we moderate that and move forward with significant change,
Speaker 2: but do it in a way that suits every part
Speaker 2: of this globe, because it's not realistic to basically assume
Speaker 2: that the economic development, for example, in Singapore is going
Speaker 2: to come to a stop to address the climate change.
Speaker 2: So there's a balance that has to take place and
Speaker 2: our mission is to
Speaker 2: Help different societies where we work in different places, where
Speaker 2: we work is strike that balance and move the needle
Speaker 2: forward every time we do a project? 39% of all
Speaker 2: global energy related to carbon emissions comes from buildings. And
Speaker 2: there are two sides to that there's the operate
Speaker 2: Additional side to it. That's a big percentage. 28, But
Speaker 2: then there's the other side is what do we use
Speaker 2: to build the building that's embodied energy and there's 11,
Speaker 2: of that number in there. It's a big, big number.
Speaker 2: We can do a lot to change the way we
Speaker 2: operate buildings. But the discussion that I like to have
Speaker 2: is what can we do to use less
Speaker 2: to build our building. So the edge, as you talk very,
Speaker 2: very nice comment that you made. Thank you. Um, but
Speaker 2: the edge is carbon neutral in its operation. But we
Speaker 2: used a lot of embodied carbon to build that building
Speaker 2: and that's a first generation, very smart building. We're now
Speaker 2: working on a third generation where we're using, I'd say
Speaker 2: two thirds less carbon to build a city
Speaker 2: building now than we did before. And for me, that's great,
Speaker 2: great strides. But I think it all comes back to
Speaker 2: one big thing. We has a society and countries and
Speaker 2: all have to work as hard as we can to
Speaker 2: dick carbonized our grid. And once we've done that a
Speaker 2: lot of these other things will fall into place very,
Speaker 2: very naturally.
Speaker 1: It all sounds great, but there are those who believe
Speaker 1: like sustainable buildings or eco friendly residences, those initiatives are costly,
Speaker 1: more expensive. Do you have a hard time convincing or
Speaker 1: justifying to your clients or investors about how much they
Speaker 1: need to pay? I mean can it actually be cheaper?
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 2: it's really, really interesting topic and we could spend all
Speaker 2: day just talking about this because they are more expensive
Speaker 2: right now but
Speaker 2: There are a lot of forces now that are helping
Speaker 2: to rationalize this and I used the example that 25
Speaker 2: years ago I wanted to buy recycled rubbish bags. So
Speaker 2: I went to the store and there were four of them,
Speaker 2: a pack of four for $10 and for $10 I
Speaker 2: could buy 60 non recyclable rubbish bags and the reason
Speaker 2: for that was is that there was no commodification
Speaker 2: of the biodegradable rubbish bags at the time, there was
Speaker 2: no market for them, nobody wanted them. So as time
Speaker 2: went on there was more and more demand for them
Speaker 2: as people started to care about it, the price came
Speaker 2: down and you created a market for these products and
Speaker 2: what we need to do is to create and ca
Speaker 2: modify products that basically cree
Speaker 2: sustainable development, solar wind, things like that. The various recycled
Speaker 2: components in our studio here were growing structural components out
Speaker 2: of Mycelium at the moment, testing the capabilities of things
Speaker 2: like that. So once you ca modify these things
Speaker 2: and they become readily available, the price will drop and
Speaker 2: the applications will become more and more common, but at
Speaker 2: the moment to do a lot of these things to
Speaker 2: build in timber or to do a lot of low
Speaker 2: energy solutions or to use ground, wouldn't do all these things.
Speaker 2: You are making a more expensive building now as energy
Speaker 2: prices go up in some countries, it's not that same everywhere.
Speaker 2: The cost of opera
Speaker 2: buildings offsets, that cost. The edge payback was seven years
Speaker 2: at that time, so it offset the cost within seven years,
Speaker 2: which is not a long time in the life of
Speaker 2: a development, but it is a discussion we always have,
Speaker 2: it's not an easy discussion investors now are very interested
Speaker 2: in E. S. G. So a lot of the money
Speaker 2: now that's going into real estate development is ca
Speaker 2: coming from E. S. G. Sources and people that occupy
Speaker 2: buildings want to feel like they're in a building that
Speaker 2: is sustainable. So that's also a big driver for people
Speaker 2: in development,
Speaker 1: would you say the demand for eco friendly, sustainable buildings
Speaker 1: are growing at the rate that you want?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think in certain parts of the world it
Speaker 2: is growing and it is considered to be a value add,
Speaker 2: particularly here in europe, but that hasn't creeped in at
Speaker 2: the same rates in other countries. We're having these conversations
Speaker 2: in Singapore at the moment, we're having them in Japan,
Speaker 2: we're even having them in the Middle East, we're working
Speaker 2: with people in India who have basically decarbonization construction processes.
Speaker 2: So it is happening at different rates and what is
Speaker 2: helping it is legislation,
Speaker 2: right? Governments are legislating and things to happen. That's both
Speaker 2: good and bad in my opinion it's good because people
Speaker 2: do it. It's bad because it only lets you do
Speaker 2: the minimum to pass the legislation. My own opinion is
Speaker 2: government should be incentivizing people to make these changes
Speaker 2: as opposed to punishing them if they don't because if
Speaker 2: you incentivize you get more innovation you create change quicker
Speaker 2: and you facilitate new products that come on the market
Speaker 2: that can be used globally in a faster way. Right?
Speaker 2: Simple economics up
Speaker 1: next. You'll hear li poly sano share. What's the one
Speaker 1: thing he would change about Singapore's built environment?
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Speaker 1: If you could change one thing about the built environment.
Speaker 1: What would that be?
Speaker 2: Well the policies to create development in Singapore are very
Speaker 2: good and very interesting. I think the move to creating
Speaker 2: more usable public spaces is something that the U. R. A.
Speaker 2: Is working on I think to help that debate
Speaker 2: how buildings create frame and create public spaces. And of
Speaker 2: course we have a climate in Singapore that isn't always
Speaker 2: conducive to staying outdoors. But there are lots of environmental
Speaker 2: strategies which can move that needle and create comfortable places
Speaker 2: even in extreme climates. And I think there's real opportunities there.
Speaker 2: You know we talk about moving to what we call
Speaker 2: a sort of life centric approach to urban design and
Speaker 2: basically
Speaker 2: that has to do for us around how we connect
Speaker 2: the social the economic and the environmental principles together. It
Speaker 2: also has to do with moving away from designing spaces
Speaker 2: that have a broad broad agenda that force people to
Speaker 2: use them in a certain way and therefore they're not adaptable.
Speaker 2: They're not flexible and they're not heavily used
Speaker 2: to designing spaces and creating buildings and places that you
Speaker 2: or me as an individual can find a way to
Speaker 2: be very very comfortable that suits our life. So the
Speaker 2: building or the place doesn't force you to basically adapt
Speaker 2: to its environment. It allows you to create an environment
Speaker 2: that suits you as an individual in your life. And
Speaker 2: that's a big big change to the way we have
Speaker 2: approached the design of buildings and
Speaker 2: places and homes. So a lot of that comes out
Speaker 2: of some strong thinking that people did during the pandemic.
Speaker 2: But a lot of it also comes out of stronger
Speaker 2: environmental concerns that not everybody is comfortable in an air
Speaker 2: conditioned environment or in a very warm environment. And if
Speaker 2: you can make buildings that are flexible that adapt to
Speaker 2: those things, that begins to create a narrative around this
Speaker 2: life centric movement.
Speaker 1: You're a huge proponent of research and innovate.
Speaker 1: In fact under your company you have a separate research
Speaker 1: group called PLP Labs. Tell us some of the technology
Speaker 1: or projects that you're most excited about,
Speaker 2: right? So we set up PLP Labs a number of
Speaker 2: years ago because, as you say, which is really a
Speaker 2: big important informer for us. It's very interesting when you
Speaker 2: set up a research group because when you talk to
Speaker 2: people about doing research with them, you become a collaborator
Speaker 2: as opposed to a competitor offering that form of collaboration
Speaker 2: has opened the door for us. Really worked with some very,
Speaker 2: very interesting people who have nothing to do with architecture,
Speaker 2: urban design thinkers. So we have ongoing research projects with
Speaker 2: the University of Cambridge around sustainable materials and the use
Speaker 2: of timber and recycled materials and things like that. We're
Speaker 2: working with a neuroscientist to look at Euro diversity and
Speaker 2: how neurodivergent e plays a role in the way you design.
Speaker 2: But we're doing other things. So we're doing pieces on
Speaker 2: the importance of culture in cities, on what makes a
Speaker 2: city a fair city for everyone because Singapore is not
Speaker 2: a good example of this because it is reasonably fair
Speaker 2: in terms of its city and people there are well
Speaker 2: looked after. But there are a lot of cities where
Speaker 2: there's quite a big disparity between socioeconomic groups,
Speaker 2: A lot more needs to be done to make cities
Speaker 2: more fair for everyone. So there's work that we're doing
Speaker 2: on that. So we look at people planet and technology,
Speaker 2: that's a broad range of things that we're doing.
Speaker 1: And in fact, your company is working on one of
Speaker 1: the largest and greenest Postwar urban redevelopment project in Japan.
Speaker 1: That's set to complete it by 2037 because you tell
Speaker 1: us more about that.
Speaker 2: So this is the Tokyo cross project that it's called.
Speaker 2: It's actually in the Habia area of Tokyo, just opposite
Speaker 2: Habia Park where the current Imperial Hotel is. So, it's
Speaker 2: one of the largest master plan in Postwar Japan. A
Speaker 2: lot of the work that we're doing is both master
Speaker 2: planner and
Speaker 2: lead designer to create for place making and for the
Speaker 2: creation of a series of very interesting spaces and places
Speaker 2: and narratives within the building. So there's a lot of
Speaker 2: two dimensional work as well as three dimensional work going
Speaker 2: on the project. Tokyo is an interesting place. It has
Speaker 2: a lot of green, but a lot of it's very private.
Speaker 2: It's not accessible to everyone. So, as part of this
Speaker 2: seven hectare site
Speaker 2: 2.5 hectares of it will be open space spaces for
Speaker 2: Co creation and for people to come together. It's connecting
Speaker 2: the Ginza area into Habia for the first time in
Speaker 2: hundreds of years, it creates elevated urban spaces and parks
Speaker 2: connect into the public realm around. So besides the buildings
Speaker 2: there's a very big which has us really, really excited, very,
Speaker 2: very big public place making contribution. And I think for
Speaker 2: us
Speaker 2: that's the greatest part of the master plan. The buildings
Speaker 2: are all going to be delivered using sustainable sources of energy.
Speaker 2: We're in conversations with some very, very innovative people in
Speaker 2: Japan to use new sources of the way you generate
Speaker 2: energy for the project and I think it will set
Speaker 2: a benchmark for sustainable development in the future. But it's
Speaker 2: got a long way to go
Speaker 1: 2037. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Leave before I let
Speaker 1: you go tell us your vision for buildings in the
Speaker 1: future and how do you hope to impact the next generation.
Speaker 2: So that's an interesting question. We talked a little bit
Speaker 2: about currently, how you build buildings is an extractive problem.
Speaker 2: It's taking taking and never giving things back the work
Speaker 2: that we're doing on the future of buildings and the
Speaker 2: future of cities and the sort of nature
Speaker 2: of smart cities is to get to a point where
Speaker 2: our urban development is a closed system where generating the
Speaker 2: energy that we need to operate the building itself, We're
Speaker 2: never using new energy.
Speaker 2: In fact we reach a point where our buildings our
Speaker 2: net plus provider of clean energy and they use that
Speaker 2: to plug that into a whole ecosystem within society that
Speaker 2: funds the manufacturing process, funds the farming process and things
Speaker 2: like that and provides surplus energy to create clean manufacturing
Speaker 2: and therefore lower carbon products, clean transport and things like that.
Speaker 2: So we
Speaker 2: have a closed system and so that even our buildings
Speaker 2: become sources of energy and surplus clean energy that can
Speaker 2: be used elsewhere in the urban environment. And for us,
Speaker 2: that's what we're really working on at a large philosophical
Speaker 2: level now, going to take a while, but I think
Speaker 2: we'll get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, full of opportunities lee, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: sharing your valuable insights, solutions and strategies and sustainability. Really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you julie. It was a pleasure meeting you and
Speaker 2: speaking to you.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks to my guest lee and all of you
Speaker 1: for tuning in the team behind the climate conversations is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne,
Speaker 1: chan Tiffany, young, Danieli Christina robert and me julie, you
Speaker 1: do like and subscribe to this podcast. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: Bye for now.