WEBVTT - Are green cities too expensive to build? 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:01.510 this is a C N. A 0:00:01.510 --> 0:00:02.310 podcast 0:00:04.380 --> 0:00:08.030 walk anywhere in Singapore and you're likely to come across 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.310 a construction site. Singapore has been described as a concrete 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.300 jungle and it is much like other big cities of 0:00:15.300 --> 0:00:18.970 the world and the constant building of homes and offices 0:00:18.970 --> 0:00:21.250 is an essential part of life here as the city 0:00:21.250 --> 0:00:25.620 continues to bustle and grow. But this construction produces a huge, 0:00:25.630 --> 0:00:28.860 huge amount of greenhouse gasses in the fight to stay 0:00:28.860 --> 0:00:33.290 on economic powerhouse. Can we simultaneously design buildings which help 0:00:33.290 --> 0:00:36.090 in the fight against climate change? What's the role of 0:00:36.090 --> 0:00:38.820 the architect in this process? And what does it mean 0:00:38.820 --> 0:00:41.559 for users of buildings like you and me? 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.820 Welcome back to the climate conversations, I'm your host, julie, you. 0:00:45.830 --> 0:00:49.589 My guest today is li poly sano. He's an architect 0:00:49.590 --> 0:00:53.590 and urban designer behind some of the world's most sustainable buildings, 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.300 skyscrapers and districts lee, welcome to the climate conversations. 0:00:58.310 --> 0:01:00.290 Hi Julia, thank you for well 0:01:00.315 --> 0:01:02.514 for me, it's a pleasure to be with you today. 0:01:02.615 --> 0:01:06.654 Absolutely. Let's start with you. You know, you were born 0:01:06.655 --> 0:01:10.475 into an italian american family in New Jersey and you 0:01:10.475 --> 0:01:14.714 initially studied geology. What sparked your interest in architecture? 0:01:14.955 --> 0:01:18.645 Oh, well I probably should have stayed in geology, 0:01:19.310 --> 0:01:23.580 but what sparked my interest in architecture was a year 0:01:23.580 --> 0:01:28.340 long visit to europe, where I was heavily inspired by 0:01:28.340 --> 0:01:31.380 the architecture there and of course I had spent my 0:01:31.380 --> 0:01:35.400 whole childhood building things at the encouragement of my mother 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.259 and the fact that both my grandfathers were builders as well. 0:01:39.270 --> 0:01:41.870 It came to me quite naturally, but never occurred to 0:01:41.870 --> 0:01:44.050 me that I should make a profession of it, but 0:01:44.050 --> 0:01:45.709 I'm very, very pleased that I did, 0:01:45.900 --> 0:01:49.670 and it's been a very, very enjoyable experience for me. 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.940 You have such an impressive portfolio from designing London's first 0:01:53.940 --> 0:01:59.440 sustainable skyscraper, A Heron Tower, the Edge in Amsterdam, that 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.010 the most sustainable building in the world to revision 0:02:02.020 --> 0:02:04.790 Tokyo Cross Park and much, much more. But of all 0:02:04.790 --> 0:02:07.290 the projects you've worked on or you're still working on, 0:02:07.290 --> 0:02:09.510 which are you most proud of and has been the 0:02:09.510 --> 0:02:10.680 most rewarding for you. 0:02:11.020 --> 0:02:15.010 So I can't actually give you an answer that says 0:02:15.020 --> 0:02:18.049 one particular project was the most rewarding. 0:02:18.350 --> 0:02:21.130 We look at projects in terms of where they're being 0:02:21.130 --> 0:02:25.020 built and we look at how our buildings can respond 0:02:25.020 --> 0:02:30.919 to that context and make a positive contribution socially, economically, environmentally, 0:02:30.930 --> 0:02:33.090 but most important for the people that are going to 0:02:33.090 --> 0:02:36.549 use the building and the future generations that we use 0:02:36.550 --> 0:02:37.130 the building. 0:02:37.270 --> 0:02:40.810 So in London, the Heron Tower was quite an achievement 0:02:40.810 --> 0:02:44.470 for us because we basically proved that you could do 0:02:44.470 --> 0:02:48.799 sustainable tall development. I'm very, very personally excited about our 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:53.070 park nova project in Singapore at the moment, because it 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.410 takes a sort of a focus around a life centric 0:02:56.410 --> 0:03:00.800 approach to creating a residential building that will have longevity 0:03:00.810 --> 0:03:01.450 and kate 0:03:01.460 --> 0:03:06.130 too many, many generations, even as people's way of living changes. 0:03:06.250 --> 0:03:09.150 So I don't really have one specific project that I 0:03:09.150 --> 0:03:10.130 can say, oh, that was 0:03:10.389 --> 0:03:11.380 hard to choose, 0:03:11.810 --> 0:03:12.800 It's hard to choose 0:03:13.410 --> 0:03:16.940 as an architect championing sustainability. Do you have any design, 0:03:16.940 --> 0:03:19.850 pet peeves concept or design that makes you go, oh, 0:03:19.860 --> 0:03:23.430 that's terrible for the environment or something that frustrates you 0:03:23.430 --> 0:03:24.130 the most. 0:03:24.550 --> 0:03:25.639 I think we have to do 0:03:25.650 --> 0:03:28.980 this with our eyes open, right? There are people at 0:03:28.990 --> 0:03:32.480 both ends of the spectrum of sustainability at the moment. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.440 There are the deniers in climate change and then there 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.640 are people who are so passionate about it. They become 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:43.790 very radicalized. You shouldn't use any sources of fossil fuel 0:03:43.790 --> 0:03:46.650 to generate energy and that's an extreme. And those two 0:03:46.650 --> 0:03:51.980 extremes tend to polarize the argument and they also tend 0:03:51.980 --> 0:03:53.880 to create stagnation, 0:03:54.100 --> 0:03:57.660 Right? Because you're locked in a position I think we 0:03:57.660 --> 0:04:00.830 need to realize is that climate has changed, our climate 0:04:00.830 --> 0:04:05.030 has changed, it's no longer about avoiding climate change. We've 0:04:05.030 --> 0:04:09.620 experienced the shift, the 1.5° is going to happen and 0:04:09.630 --> 0:04:12.160 there's no turning back from that. The question is 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:18.760 how do we moderate that and move forward with significant change, 0:04:18.770 --> 0:04:22.510 but do it in a way that suits every part 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:27.700 of this globe, because it's not realistic to basically assume 0:04:27.700 --> 0:04:30.450 that the economic development, for example, in Singapore is going 0:04:30.450 --> 0:04:33.849 to come to a stop to address the climate change. 0:04:33.860 --> 0:04:37.630 So there's a balance that has to take place and 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.600 our mission is to 0:04:40.740 --> 0:04:44.909 Help different societies where we work in different places, where 0:04:44.910 --> 0:04:48.100 we work is strike that balance and move the needle 0:04:48.100 --> 0:04:52.610 forward every time we do a project? 39% of all 0:04:52.610 --> 0:04:57.210 global energy related to carbon emissions comes from buildings. And 0:04:57.210 --> 0:04:59.960 there are two sides to that there's the operate 0:04:59.970 --> 0:05:04.610 Additional side to it. That's a big percentage. 28, But 0:05:04.610 --> 0:05:07.060 then there's the other side is what do we use 0:05:07.070 --> 0:05:11.979 to build the building that's embodied energy and there's 11, 0:05:12.610 --> 0:05:16.140 of that number in there. It's a big, big number. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.050 We can do a lot to change the way we 0:05:18.050 --> 0:05:21.560 operate buildings. But the discussion that I like to have 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.110 is what can we do to use less 0:05:24.570 --> 0:05:28.000 to build our building. So the edge, as you talk very, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.180 very nice comment that you made. Thank you. Um, but 0:05:31.180 --> 0:05:35.359 the edge is carbon neutral in its operation. But we 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.390 used a lot of embodied carbon to build that building 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.250 and that's a first generation, very smart building. We're now 0:05:42.250 --> 0:05:46.229 working on a third generation where we're using, I'd say 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.200 two thirds less carbon to build a city 0:05:49.335 --> 0:05:53.904 building now than we did before. And for me, that's great, 0:05:53.915 --> 0:05:58.385 great strides. But I think it all comes back to 0:05:58.385 --> 0:06:02.105 one big thing. We has a society and countries and 0:06:02.105 --> 0:06:04.885 all have to work as hard as we can to 0:06:04.885 --> 0:06:09.545 dick carbonized our grid. And once we've done that a 0:06:09.545 --> 0:06:12.255 lot of these other things will fall into place very, 0:06:12.255 --> 0:06:13.435 very naturally. 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.530 It all sounds great, but there are those who believe 0:06:16.529 --> 0:06:21.890 like sustainable buildings or eco friendly residences, those initiatives are costly, 0:06:21.890 --> 0:06:25.070 more expensive. Do you have a hard time convincing or 0:06:25.070 --> 0:06:27.970 justifying to your clients or investors about how much they 0:06:27.970 --> 0:06:30.580 need to pay? I mean can it actually be cheaper? 0:06:30.589 --> 0:06:31.119 So 0:06:31.130 --> 0:06:34.190 it's really, really interesting topic and we could spend all 0:06:34.190 --> 0:06:37.990 day just talking about this because they are more expensive 0:06:37.990 --> 0:06:39.780 right now but 0:06:39.890 --> 0:06:42.990 There are a lot of forces now that are helping 0:06:42.990 --> 0:06:47.040 to rationalize this and I used the example that 25 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.830 years ago I wanted to buy recycled rubbish bags. So 0:06:50.830 --> 0:06:52.940 I went to the store and there were four of them, 0:06:52.950 --> 0:06:57.849 a pack of four for $10 and for $10 I 0:06:57.850 --> 0:07:02.600 could buy 60 non recyclable rubbish bags and the reason 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.740 for that was is that there was no commodification 0:07:06.250 --> 0:07:10.130 of the biodegradable rubbish bags at the time, there was 0:07:10.130 --> 0:07:14.410 no market for them, nobody wanted them. So as time 0:07:14.410 --> 0:07:16.740 went on there was more and more demand for them 0:07:16.740 --> 0:07:19.390 as people started to care about it, the price came 0:07:19.390 --> 0:07:23.560 down and you created a market for these products and 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.080 what we need to do is to create and ca 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.700 modify products that basically cree 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:36.130 sustainable development, solar wind, things like that. The various recycled 0:07:36.130 --> 0:07:41.110 components in our studio here were growing structural components out 0:07:41.110 --> 0:07:45.350 of Mycelium at the moment, testing the capabilities of things 0:07:45.350 --> 0:07:48.710 like that. So once you ca modify these things 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.770 and they become readily available, the price will drop and 0:07:52.780 --> 0:07:56.930 the applications will become more and more common, but at 0:07:56.930 --> 0:07:59.360 the moment to do a lot of these things to 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:02.020 build in timber or to do a lot of low 0:08:02.020 --> 0:08:05.250 energy solutions or to use ground, wouldn't do all these things. 0:08:05.260 --> 0:08:08.720 You are making a more expensive building now as energy 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.890 prices go up in some countries, it's not that same everywhere. 0:08:12.930 --> 0:08:14.110 The cost of opera 0:08:14.340 --> 0:08:18.680 buildings offsets, that cost. The edge payback was seven years 0:08:18.690 --> 0:08:22.960 at that time, so it offset the cost within seven years, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.370 which is not a long time in the life of 0:08:25.370 --> 0:08:28.230 a development, but it is a discussion we always have, 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:33.520 it's not an easy discussion investors now are very interested 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.650 in E. S. G. So a lot of the money 0:08:36.650 --> 0:08:39.120 now that's going into real estate development is ca 0:08:39.140 --> 0:08:43.370 coming from E. S. G. Sources and people that occupy 0:08:43.370 --> 0:08:47.390 buildings want to feel like they're in a building that 0:08:47.390 --> 0:08:51.640 is sustainable. So that's also a big driver for people 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:52.490 in development, 0:08:52.500 --> 0:08:55.689 would you say the demand for eco friendly, sustainable buildings 0:08:55.690 --> 0:08:57.620 are growing at the rate that you want? 0:08:57.630 --> 0:09:00.510 Yes, I think in certain parts of the world it 0:09:00.510 --> 0:09:03.740 is growing and it is considered to be a value add, 0:09:04.150 --> 0:09:07.880 particularly here in europe, but that hasn't creeped in at 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.839 the same rates in other countries. We're having these conversations 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.699 in Singapore at the moment, we're having them in Japan, 0:09:14.710 --> 0:09:17.790 we're even having them in the Middle East, we're working 0:09:17.790 --> 0:09:23.870 with people in India who have basically decarbonization construction processes. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.270 So it is happening at different rates and what is 0:09:28.270 --> 0:09:31.120 helping it is legislation, 0:09:31.380 --> 0:09:35.930 right? Governments are legislating and things to happen. That's both 0:09:35.929 --> 0:09:38.860 good and bad in my opinion it's good because people 0:09:38.860 --> 0:09:41.370 do it. It's bad because it only lets you do 0:09:41.370 --> 0:09:45.320 the minimum to pass the legislation. My own opinion is 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.660 government should be incentivizing people to make these changes 0:09:48.809 --> 0:09:52.570 as opposed to punishing them if they don't because if 0:09:52.570 --> 0:09:57.540 you incentivize you get more innovation you create change quicker 0:09:57.550 --> 0:10:00.790 and you facilitate new products that come on the market 0:10:00.790 --> 0:10:04.380 that can be used globally in a faster way. Right? 0:10:04.390 --> 0:10:06.250 Simple economics up 0:10:06.250 --> 0:10:09.500 next. You'll hear li poly sano share. What's the one 0:10:09.500 --> 0:10:12.739 thing he would change about Singapore's built environment? 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.000 Are you looking for ways to make your money work 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.349 harder for you or need tips on saving, investing and 0:10:26.350 --> 0:10:31.030 making financial decisions. Join me Sarah Al Khaldi on money talks, 0:10:31.100 --> 0:10:36.400 CNN's top personal finance podcast from investment basics too. 0:10:36.415 --> 0:10:40.155 The fire movement and legacy planning. I look at financial 0:10:40.155 --> 0:10:43.565 trends and new stories that matter to you. Check out 0:10:43.575 --> 0:10:46.705 our complete playlist on the C. N. A. Ap Apple 0:10:46.705 --> 0:10:50.824 and google podcasts or Spotify. You can also follow us 0:10:50.835 --> 0:10:53.455 or subscribe for new weekly episodes. 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.310 If you could change one thing about the built environment. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:04.530 What would that be? 0:11:04.540 --> 0:11:09.950 Well the policies to create development in Singapore are very 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.179 good and very interesting. I think the move to creating 0:11:13.179 --> 0:11:17.780 more usable public spaces is something that the U. R. A. 0:11:17.780 --> 0:11:20.590 Is working on I think to help that debate 0:11:20.785 --> 0:11:24.505 how buildings create frame and create public spaces. And of 0:11:24.505 --> 0:11:27.635 course we have a climate in Singapore that isn't always 0:11:27.645 --> 0:11:31.595 conducive to staying outdoors. But there are lots of environmental 0:11:31.595 --> 0:11:36.495 strategies which can move that needle and create comfortable places 0:11:36.505 --> 0:11:40.855 even in extreme climates. And I think there's real opportunities there. 0:11:40.865 --> 0:11:44.675 You know we talk about moving to what we call 0:11:44.675 --> 0:11:48.345 a sort of life centric approach to urban design and 0:11:48.345 --> 0:11:49.145 basically 0:11:49.550 --> 0:11:52.910 that has to do for us around how we connect 0:11:52.910 --> 0:11:57.890 the social the economic and the environmental principles together. It 0:11:57.890 --> 0:12:02.370 also has to do with moving away from designing spaces 0:12:02.370 --> 0:12:07.490 that have a broad broad agenda that force people to 0:12:07.490 --> 0:12:11.510 use them in a certain way and therefore they're not adaptable. 0:12:11.510 --> 0:12:13.720 They're not flexible and they're not heavily used 0:12:13.900 --> 0:12:18.540 to designing spaces and creating buildings and places that you 0:12:18.540 --> 0:12:21.360 or me as an individual can find a way to 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.189 be very very comfortable that suits our life. So the 0:12:25.190 --> 0:12:29.910 building or the place doesn't force you to basically adapt 0:12:29.910 --> 0:12:34.330 to its environment. It allows you to create an environment 0:12:34.340 --> 0:12:38.059 that suits you as an individual in your life. And 0:12:38.059 --> 0:12:40.410 that's a big big change to the way we have 0:12:40.410 --> 0:12:42.569 approached the design of buildings and 0:12:42.586 --> 0:12:45.526 places and homes. So a lot of that comes out 0:12:45.526 --> 0:12:49.675 of some strong thinking that people did during the pandemic. 0:12:49.686 --> 0:12:52.146 But a lot of it also comes out of stronger 0:12:52.146 --> 0:12:57.386 environmental concerns that not everybody is comfortable in an air 0:12:57.386 --> 0:13:00.446 conditioned environment or in a very warm environment. And if 0:13:00.446 --> 0:13:03.446 you can make buildings that are flexible that adapt to 0:13:03.446 --> 0:13:07.156 those things, that begins to create a narrative around this 0:13:07.155 --> 0:13:08.766 life centric movement. 0:13:08.776 --> 0:13:11.260 You're a huge proponent of research and innovate. 0:13:11.422 --> 0:13:14.092 In fact under your company you have a separate research 0:13:14.092 --> 0:13:17.212 group called PLP Labs. Tell us some of the technology 0:13:17.212 --> 0:13:19.192 or projects that you're most excited about, 0:13:19.202 --> 0:13:22.452 right? So we set up PLP Labs a number of 0:13:22.452 --> 0:13:25.482 years ago because, as you say, which is really a 0:13:25.482 --> 0:13:29.662 big important informer for us. It's very interesting when you 0:13:29.662 --> 0:13:32.142 set up a research group because when you talk to 0:13:32.142 --> 0:13:35.572 people about doing research with them, you become a collaborator 0:13:35.682 --> 0:13:39.952 as opposed to a competitor offering that form of collaboration 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.260 has opened the door for us. Really worked with some very, 0:13:43.260 --> 0:13:46.850 very interesting people who have nothing to do with architecture, 0:13:46.850 --> 0:13:51.760 urban design thinkers. So we have ongoing research projects with 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.590 the University of Cambridge around sustainable materials and the use 0:13:56.590 --> 0:14:01.020 of timber and recycled materials and things like that. We're 0:14:01.020 --> 0:14:05.730 working with a neuroscientist to look at Euro diversity and 0:14:05.730 --> 0:14:09.480 how neurodivergent e plays a role in the way you design. 0:14:09.730 --> 0:14:12.270 But we're doing other things. So we're doing pieces on 0:14:12.270 --> 0:14:16.330 the importance of culture in cities, on what makes a 0:14:16.330 --> 0:14:20.620 city a fair city for everyone because Singapore is not 0:14:20.620 --> 0:14:23.960 a good example of this because it is reasonably fair 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.480 in terms of its city and people there are well 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.090 looked after. But there are a lot of cities where 0:14:29.100 --> 0:14:33.850 there's quite a big disparity between socioeconomic groups, 0:14:33.860 --> 0:14:36.550 A lot more needs to be done to make cities 0:14:36.550 --> 0:14:40.030 more fair for everyone. So there's work that we're doing 0:14:40.030 --> 0:14:44.430 on that. So we look at people planet and technology, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.000 that's a broad range of things that we're doing. 0:14:47.190 --> 0:14:49.200 And in fact, your company is working on one of 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:54.380 the largest and greenest Postwar urban redevelopment project in Japan. 0:14:54.380 --> 0:14:56.850 That's set to complete it by 2037 because you tell 0:14:56.850 --> 0:14:57.800 us more about that. 0:14:58.190 --> 0:15:01.869 So this is the Tokyo cross project that it's called. 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:06.640 It's actually in the Habia area of Tokyo, just opposite 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.520 Habia Park where the current Imperial Hotel is. So, it's 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.240 one of the largest master plan in Postwar Japan. A 0:15:14.250 --> 0:15:17.890 lot of the work that we're doing is both master 0:15:17.890 --> 0:15:19.130 planner and 0:15:19.450 --> 0:15:25.140 lead designer to create for place making and for the 0:15:25.140 --> 0:15:28.770 creation of a series of very interesting spaces and places 0:15:28.770 --> 0:15:32.830 and narratives within the building. So there's a lot of 0:15:32.830 --> 0:15:36.160 two dimensional work as well as three dimensional work going 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.160 on the project. Tokyo is an interesting place. It has 0:15:39.170 --> 0:15:42.360 a lot of green, but a lot of it's very private. 0:15:42.370 --> 0:15:45.960 It's not accessible to everyone. So, as part of this 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:47.800 seven hectare site 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.900 2.5 hectares of it will be open space spaces for 0:15:51.900 --> 0:15:55.640 Co creation and for people to come together. It's connecting 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.610 the Ginza area into Habia for the first time in 0:15:58.620 --> 0:16:04.770 hundreds of years, it creates elevated urban spaces and parks 0:16:04.780 --> 0:16:08.840 connect into the public realm around. So besides the buildings 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.140 there's a very big which has us really, really excited, very, 0:16:12.140 --> 0:16:16.490 very big public place making contribution. And I think for 0:16:16.490 --> 0:16:17.130 us 0:16:17.500 --> 0:16:21.180 that's the greatest part of the master plan. The buildings 0:16:21.180 --> 0:16:24.800 are all going to be delivered using sustainable sources of energy. 0:16:24.810 --> 0:16:28.300 We're in conversations with some very, very innovative people in 0:16:28.300 --> 0:16:31.910 Japan to use new sources of the way you generate 0:16:31.910 --> 0:16:35.140 energy for the project and I think it will set 0:16:35.140 --> 0:16:39.200 a benchmark for sustainable development in the future. But it's 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:40.540 got a long way to go 0:16:41.410 --> 0:16:46.350 2037. Yeah. Looking forward to it. Leave before I let 0:16:46.350 --> 0:16:49.280 you go tell us your vision for buildings in the 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.150 future and how do you hope to impact the next generation. 0:16:53.090 --> 0:16:55.950 So that's an interesting question. We talked a little bit 0:16:55.950 --> 0:16:59.520 about currently, how you build buildings is an extractive problem. 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.840 It's taking taking and never giving things back the work 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.609 that we're doing on the future of buildings and the 0:17:05.609 --> 0:17:08.080 future of cities and the sort of nature 0:17:08.090 --> 0:17:11.550 of smart cities is to get to a point where 0:17:11.550 --> 0:17:16.730 our urban development is a closed system where generating the 0:17:16.730 --> 0:17:21.430 energy that we need to operate the building itself, We're 0:17:21.430 --> 0:17:23.090 never using new energy. 0:17:23.270 --> 0:17:26.790 In fact we reach a point where our buildings our 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:31.910 net plus provider of clean energy and they use that 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:37.490 to plug that into a whole ecosystem within society that 0:17:37.500 --> 0:17:41.630 funds the manufacturing process, funds the farming process and things 0:17:41.630 --> 0:17:47.320 like that and provides surplus energy to create clean manufacturing 0:17:47.330 --> 0:17:52.480 and therefore lower carbon products, clean transport and things like that. 0:17:52.490 --> 0:17:52.750 So we 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.010 have a closed system and so that even our buildings 0:17:56.020 --> 0:18:01.320 become sources of energy and surplus clean energy that can 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.380 be used elsewhere in the urban environment. And for us, 0:18:04.380 --> 0:18:07.649 that's what we're really working on at a large philosophical 0:18:07.650 --> 0:18:10.250 level now, going to take a while, but I think 0:18:10.250 --> 0:18:10.939 we'll get there. 0:18:10.950 --> 0:18:13.970 Yeah, full of opportunities lee, thank you so much for 0:18:13.970 --> 0:18:18.540 sharing your valuable insights, solutions and strategies and sustainability. Really 0:18:18.540 --> 0:18:19.530 appreciate it. Thank you. 0:18:19.530 --> 0:18:21.370 Thank you julie. It was a pleasure meeting you and 0:18:21.369 --> 0:18:22.250 speaking to you. 0:18:23.550 --> 0:18:25.960 Well, thanks to my guest lee and all of you 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.540 for tuning in the team behind the climate conversations is Jacqueline, chan, Joanne, 0:18:30.540 --> 0:18:35.310 chan Tiffany, young, Danieli Christina robert and me julie, you 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.740 do like and subscribe to this podcast. Thank you for listening. 0:18:38.750 --> 0:18:39.600 Bye for now.