1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,700 Speaker 1: these days. You don't really smell as much cigarette smoke 3 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,010 Speaker 1: when you're out and about in Singapore and in fact 4 00:00:12,010 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: I definitely see less cigarette butts. But sometimes I catch 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,829 Speaker 1: a whiff of the scent in the air. Maybe an 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: apple scent candy, even some chocolate. You know, I don't 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,050 Speaker 1: see cigarettes, but I do see a small puff of 8 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: smoke emitted from the person near me. Well to the 9 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,510 Speaker 1: uninitiated that is a Vape and E cigarette. 10 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:33,820 Speaker 1: Now these vaping devices are battery operated and it works 11 00:00:33,820 --> 00:00:37,709 Speaker 1: by heating a liquid substance which contains nicotine but that 12 00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: nicotine can be masked in almost any flavor you want. 13 00:00:41,409 --> 00:00:45,220 Speaker 1: So is it legal? You ask? No, it is not 14 00:00:45,229 --> 00:00:47,930 Speaker 1: in Singapore. The import and sale of e cigarettes has 15 00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:51,340 Speaker 1: always been banned. And in 2017 the law was extended 16 00:00:51,340 --> 00:00:55,950 Speaker 1: to cover purchase use and possession of such devices. Six 17 00:00:55,950 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: years on the problem of vaping has not well vaporized 18 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:05,430 Speaker 1: Quite the opposite actually from 2020 to 2022, the number 19 00:01:05,430 --> 00:01:09,110 Speaker 1: of people caught vaping has more than triple if anything. 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,470 Speaker 1: It has entrenched itself not just among the young who 21 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:16,009 Speaker 1: are attracted by the lower costs and different flavors but 22 00:01:16,020 --> 00:01:19,060 Speaker 1: also by older adults who are convinced that this is 23 00:01:19,069 --> 00:01:21,339 Speaker 1: less harmful compared to cigarettes. 24 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:24,860 Speaker 1: Today we go behind the smoke and mirrors of vaping. 25 00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:28,850 Speaker 1: Why is this current approach not working? What more can 26 00:01:28,850 --> 00:01:33,110 Speaker 1: be done? Why does vaping continue to find new users 27 00:01:35,819 --> 00:01:40,930 Speaker 1: with me to break this down. Our associate professor Chakrabarty 28 00:01:40,940 --> 00:01:44,030 Speaker 1: from Duke and US Medical school. Hello everyone nice to 29 00:01:44,030 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: be here Sean and smoking cessation specialists. 30 00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:49,140 Speaker 2: Hey everyone, it's a pleasure to be here. 31 00:01:49,150 --> 00:01:52,380 Speaker 1: And sarah someone who currently vapes and she's asked to 32 00:01:52,380 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: stay anonymous. Hi everybody. This is Sarah nice to be 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,610 Speaker 1: here too. 34 00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:00,300 Speaker 1: So thanks guys. Let's kick off this discussion. I'm going 35 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:02,490 Speaker 1: to start with. You help us understand the scope of 36 00:02:02,490 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: the issue here. The figures show that there is a 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,180 Speaker 1: sharp rise in people vaping, especially the young. Why is 38 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:08,820 Speaker 1: this happening? 39 00:02:09,010 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: I think there are a number of issues here. First 40 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,470 Speaker 1: of course there is the meat that e cigarettes are 41 00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: safe while in reality that's not and in fact e 42 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,500 Speaker 1: cigarettes can pose a variety of health hazards. But other 43 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: than that there are quite a few practical issues. One 44 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: is the fact that these are cheaper. These are relatively 45 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: easy to buy online. 46 00:02:31,290 --> 00:02:33,980 Speaker 1: And another kind of disturbing fact is that, you know, 47 00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: vaping is perceived to be cool and trendy and social 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,220 Speaker 1: media has a lot to do with that perception. And 49 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: this leads to peer pressure among, particularly among the youth. 50 00:02:44,889 --> 00:02:49,500 Speaker 1: These are very important issues and challenging to address. 51 00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:52,690 Speaker 1: And another thing is that it's less detectable compared to 52 00:02:52,690 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: the typical tobacco smell. It comes with many different flavors. 53 00:02:56,850 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: So that's perceived cool and it's also easy to hide. 54 00:02:59,690 --> 00:03:02,470 Speaker 1: So all these things are adding to the issue and 55 00:03:02,470 --> 00:03:05,370 Speaker 1: probably contributing to the rise Sean, can you give us 56 00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:08,290 Speaker 1: a sense of what you're seeing in the chat earlier? 57 00:03:08,290 --> 00:03:10,890 Speaker 1: You mentioned that you're getting requests to speak to even 58 00:03:10,889 --> 00:03:12,889 Speaker 1: primary school students about vaping 59 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,900 Speaker 1: And these are kids as young as 10 years old. 60 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:18,890 Speaker 2: So I started my work actually working with adults in 61 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: 2010 as a pharmacist and later I moved into the 62 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: youth side of things by you mean 13-17 years old. 63 00:03:25,850 --> 00:03:28,190 Speaker 2: And there was once my team had a request to 64 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:31,190 Speaker 2: conduct the program for kids as young as 10 years old. 65 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: When we first started, it was primarily cigarette smoking. 66 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,820 Speaker 2: And as the years went by, we conducted this program 67 00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:40,570 Speaker 2: for quite a few years, it became more apparent that 68 00:03:40,570 --> 00:03:44,430 Speaker 2: vaping was becoming a thing. It came to the point 69 00:03:44,430 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: that you just can't ignore it anymore. At the point 70 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,230 Speaker 2: where we started to notice this trend. Like for me personally, 71 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:52,190 Speaker 2: I struggled to learn more about it, right? Because in 72 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,100 Speaker 2: pharmacy school as healthcare professionals, when we learn about vaping, 73 00:03:56,100 --> 00:03:57,970 Speaker 2: we learn about all the ill effects of it. 74 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,590 Speaker 2: But then you have people coming to you and saying, 75 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,010 Speaker 2: oh no, no, no. This thing actually helps me to 76 00:04:03,010 --> 00:04:06,470 Speaker 2: stop smoking. And my friends are all doing it right now. 77 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: So it's more than just something that's an ill effect. Right? 78 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,740 Speaker 2: It's becoming a trend already. And so I started to 79 00:04:12,740 --> 00:04:15,090 Speaker 2: ask myself questions, why is it becoming a thing among 80 00:04:15,090 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: the youth. 81 00:04:16,029 --> 00:04:18,940 Speaker 2: And that's where I started to delve a lot deeper 82 00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:21,330 Speaker 2: into the world of vaping, trying super hard to learn 83 00:04:21,339 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: where they get their supplies from used to be from 84 00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:28,020 Speaker 2: very shady places like railway tracks, a certain block of flats, 85 00:04:28,020 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: as the kids would tell me now, it's all over telegram, right? 86 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,250 Speaker 2: It's just so easy to get at this point. 87 00:04:33,260 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: What did you discover in the sense that why was 88 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:36,669 Speaker 1: it 89 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:38,550 Speaker 1: so appealing to these young people? 90 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: I started with a lot of videos on Youtube where 91 00:04:43,210 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 2: there was this kind of like a movement overseas that 92 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:49,700 Speaker 2: people started to say it was healthier and after a 93 00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:52,210 Speaker 2: while it became quite a cool thing because people started 94 00:04:52,210 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: doing tricks with all the smoke and you know, they 95 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,349 Speaker 2: had a ring of smoke and they blew something through it. 96 00:04:57,500 --> 00:05:00,070 Speaker 2: It became a fun thing and kids tried to achieve 97 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,830 Speaker 2: these things. There are many reasons why people pick up 98 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:05,260 Speaker 2: smoking and it's kind of like the same reasons why 99 00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:08,220 Speaker 2: people get into vaping were part of the reason. It's 100 00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:10,859 Speaker 2: for them to find it. It's a challenge. And when 101 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:12,070 Speaker 2: I ask a lot of the kids know where you 102 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:16,190 Speaker 2: get caught for smoking, is it outside, not outside, not 103 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: outside school then where like in school they're like, yeah, 104 00:05:19,490 --> 00:05:22,659 Speaker 2: sure getting caught outside school is too mainstream. 105 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: The challenge is to smoke or Vape within a restricted 106 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: environment and not get caught. So for some of them 107 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: it became a challenge and that's alongside all the other 108 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: effects that nicotine gives you right to boost in energy etcetera. 109 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,700 Speaker 2: So some of them will actually only Vape or smoke 110 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:41,580 Speaker 2: before api session on days that they have p then 111 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:43,779 Speaker 2: they will Vape or smoke if they have enough test 112 00:05:43,779 --> 00:05:45,860 Speaker 2: then they will Vape or smoke. If not they don't 113 00:05:45,870 --> 00:05:47,700 Speaker 1: wow. So they felt it was like a bit of 114 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: a booster. 115 00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: In fact not too long ago we did a two 116 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,210 Speaker 1: part special for the show talking point which is all 117 00:05:53,210 --> 00:05:55,220 Speaker 1: about vaping. And I spoke to many young people who 118 00:05:55,220 --> 00:05:58,710 Speaker 1: said that vapes don't burn tobacco. That's what they said. 119 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,060 Speaker 1: So you know, as you mentioned it doesn't smell bad. 120 00:06:01,070 --> 00:06:04,489 Speaker 1: They believe it doesn't produce as harmful elements like tar 121 00:06:04,490 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: or carbon monoxide. So they believe it's a better alternative 122 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,820 Speaker 1: to cigarettes. So sarah let me come to you. Do 123 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:13,930 Speaker 1: you believe that vaping is less harmful than cigarettes? 124 00:06:14,380 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: I didn't really read about like the differences between saving 125 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: and cigarette smoking. But I think for me it's a 126 00:06:21,970 --> 00:06:25,010 Speaker 1: more conveniently out say right because I don't have to 127 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:28,170 Speaker 1: get to a smoking area to smoke secrets. I have 128 00:06:28,170 --> 00:06:30,580 Speaker 1: to get a smoking area to smoke cigarettes. But in 129 00:06:30,580 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: terms of saving I don't have to. So what made 130 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,180 Speaker 1: you switch from smoking to vaping? Yeah, it's a more 131 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: convenient way for me to smoke in my room and 132 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: I'm doing my own work and things like that. I 133 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:43,190 Speaker 1: can just like speed. 134 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,530 Speaker 1: I don't have to get out of my room to 135 00:06:46,529 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: find a place to smoke. So it's an easier alternative. Okay, 136 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: so it's really just because of the convenience, your convenience. 137 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,230 Speaker 1: And after a while I realized that I don't need 138 00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:59,030 Speaker 1: to smoke cigarettes anymore. Okay. What do you mean? But 139 00:06:59,029 --> 00:07:01,130 Speaker 1: you don't need to smoke cigarettes anymore? Were you doing 140 00:07:01,130 --> 00:07:03,150 Speaker 1: both at the same time for a while? Yeah. So 141 00:07:03,150 --> 00:07:06,490 Speaker 1: for a start I was taping and I was smoking cigarettes. 142 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: Subsequently I think after a few months I realized I 143 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: can just do away with cigarettes. Okay. 144 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,570 Speaker 1: And do you feel better? Does it give you the 145 00:07:14,570 --> 00:07:18,310 Speaker 1: same kick initially? No, I still feel like I get 146 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: more kick from cigarette smoking. But subsequently I guess like 147 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:25,710 Speaker 1: my body got used to just like I'm okay with 148 00:07:25,710 --> 00:07:28,430 Speaker 1: just vaping without secrets. Right. And do you feel like 149 00:07:28,430 --> 00:07:32,070 Speaker 1: you are vaping more than you were smoking cigarettes? As 150 00:07:32,070 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: in the volume. You know the quantity. 151 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:37,950 Speaker 1: I didn't really measure that. But since it's more convenient, 152 00:07:37,950 --> 00:07:40,650 Speaker 1: I would assume that it's much easier for me to 153 00:07:40,660 --> 00:07:44,060 Speaker 1: be because from my understanding, I think one of those 154 00:07:44,060 --> 00:07:48,340 Speaker 1: pods they say is about equivalent to 20 cigarettes. Would 155 00:07:48,340 --> 00:07:50,429 Speaker 1: you agree? That's kind of true. How many cigarettes did 156 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:53,170 Speaker 1: you use to smoke? So a day I can smoke 157 00:07:53,180 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: maybe 8-10. 158 00:07:55,140 --> 00:07:58,210 Speaker 1: Okay. And now with how fast you go through one 159 00:07:58,210 --> 00:08:03,500 Speaker 1: pod pod maybe can last me? About two for this. Okay. 160 00:08:03,510 --> 00:08:06,270 Speaker 1: So it's a bit more cost efficient. Yeah. Maybe share 161 00:08:06,270 --> 00:08:08,410 Speaker 1: with us also in terms of the cost. What's the 162 00:08:08,410 --> 00:08:11,710 Speaker 1: price compared to a packet of cigarettes? So, a pack 163 00:08:11,710 --> 00:08:15,700 Speaker 1: of cigarettes costs about $12 depending on the brand of 164 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:20,660 Speaker 1: cost device these days. A lot of money. So that's 165 00:08:20,660 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: the same device. 166 00:08:21,330 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: You can just get one device and then you just 167 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,470 Speaker 1: get parts for the field. So one part, usually a 168 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,330 Speaker 1: box of parts comes in three. So it's about 30, 169 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:35,770 Speaker 1: depending also for for three parts to say it costs 170 00:08:35,770 --> 00:08:41,309 Speaker 1: about $30. Okay, so it is cheaper than buying traditional cigarettes. 171 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,150 Speaker 1: So when you hear of people like Sarah, you know, 172 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:46,459 Speaker 1: she's saying that she switched because it is really just 173 00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: more convenient. And 174 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:49,010 Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned, you can do it in 175 00:08:49,010 --> 00:08:51,700 Speaker 1: so many places. It doesn't smell so bad. So is 176 00:08:51,700 --> 00:08:54,420 Speaker 1: it really about this convenience? Is that what's made it 177 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: so accessible and more young people are jumping on because 178 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: I guess it's just so easy to get? Yeah, I 179 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: think so. It has a lot to do with the 180 00:09:02,570 --> 00:09:05,790 Speaker 1: recent rise. You know, it's so easy and cheaper. But 181 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,870 Speaker 1: the point is it's still unsafe. So, yes, one argument 182 00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:12,380 Speaker 1: is that people believe that it is actually safer or 183 00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:15,230 Speaker 1: less harmful than traditional cigarettes. 184 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: Is that truth or is that myth? Okay, So long 185 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: story short, we are not sure yet, 186 00:09:22,059 --> 00:09:27,069 Speaker 1: smoking versus vaping may have some differences in exactly what 187 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: diseases it can cause. But definitely we know that both 188 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: are bad for health, to what extent things are not 189 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,410 Speaker 1: very definitive. The results. The findings are not very definitive 190 00:09:37,410 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: yet more long term research is needed to know exactly 191 00:09:40,850 --> 00:09:44,100 Speaker 1: the risk profiles. We have to wait long term to 192 00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:46,010 Speaker 1: know exactly. You know what's going on 193 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: sean, what's your take on this? 194 00:09:48,490 --> 00:09:50,230 Speaker 2: I think there are a few things about this right? 195 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,260 Speaker 2: Firstly by no means is vaping healthy. I mean almost 196 00:09:53,270 --> 00:09:55,820 Speaker 2: everyone I know understands that given the kids know it's 197 00:09:55,820 --> 00:09:58,750 Speaker 2: not healthy. And then we delve into the comparison. So 198 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,990 Speaker 2: a lot of the harm from cigarette smoking comes from 199 00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:04,630 Speaker 2: the combustion of the tobacco leaves or the burning of 200 00:10:04,630 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: the tobacco leaves, right? That's when the thousands of dangerous 201 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,700 Speaker 2: chemicals are actually produced and where higher risk for lung 202 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:13,730 Speaker 2: cancers come from the tar etcetera. 203 00:10:13,950 --> 00:10:18,310 Speaker 2: So without combustion then you have less of the dangerous chemicals. 204 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: But there's still of course nicotine which causes addiction and 205 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 2: all the cardiovascular problems that come with it. Well, some 206 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,340 Speaker 2: of the kids try to convince me that they use 207 00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:29,740 Speaker 2: products without nicotine is just a vapor True or not. 208 00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:32,140 Speaker 2: I don't know. But I doubt so. And then in 209 00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:34,300 Speaker 2: vaping you have different types, right? You have the E 210 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:37,540 Speaker 2: cigarettes for different generations of E cigarettes and you have 211 00:10:37,540 --> 00:10:40,490 Speaker 2: the different types which are the heated tobacco products. So 212 00:10:40,490 --> 00:10:41,819 Speaker 2: they kind of discovered that 213 00:10:42,270 --> 00:10:46,220 Speaker 2: you can hit tobacco to a certain temperature and it 214 00:10:46,220 --> 00:10:48,390 Speaker 2: releases nicotine. So it still gives you the cake, it 215 00:10:48,390 --> 00:10:52,230 Speaker 2: helps with the addictive effects. But no compassion. It's important 216 00:10:52,230 --> 00:10:56,459 Speaker 2: to remember that there are chemicals involved, not completely safe. 217 00:10:56,470 --> 00:10:58,689 Speaker 2: In fact, as I understand it, there are still a 218 00:10:58,690 --> 00:11:00,830 Speaker 2: lot of chemicals that the scientists don't even know what's 219 00:11:00,830 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: in there. 220 00:11:01,830 --> 00:11:04,730 Speaker 2: So it's just a lot about the marketing. They feel 221 00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:08,100 Speaker 2: that it's healthier in some ways it is. But the 222 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,990 Speaker 2: effects of nicotine can still have an effect on the 223 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:14,220 Speaker 2: heart on the brain and how much nicotine really is 224 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:15,050 Speaker 2: in each part. 225 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,260 Speaker 2: Big, big question. People believe what's marketed to them. But 226 00:11:20,260 --> 00:11:22,430 Speaker 2: what else are the other chemicals? Another big question. 227 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the problem comes when, you know, people 228 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,470 Speaker 1: become dual users, you know, thankfully for Sarah. We just 229 00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:30,980 Speaker 1: heard that, you know, she gradually switched to only one 230 00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:35,010 Speaker 1: of the modes of taking nicotine. But you know, there 231 00:11:35,010 --> 00:11:38,850 Speaker 1: are some studies where people keep taking both. They were 232 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: doing both smoking cigarettes and vaping. So that multiplies the problem. 233 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: Right? And in some cases some of them believe that 234 00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:50,390 Speaker 1: vaping is a good tool to help transition towards a 235 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,570 Speaker 1: non smoking life? Yeah. Is that something you would hope 236 00:11:53,570 --> 00:11:55,250 Speaker 1: to do? Sarah? Are you are you hoping that at 237 00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:58,450 Speaker 1: some point to quit smoking? Do you think vaping has 238 00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:01,660 Speaker 1: helped you in that respect? Because I don't feel the 239 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:07,270 Speaker 1: need to right anymore. But do you believe that vaping 240 00:12:07,270 --> 00:12:08,790 Speaker 1: is just as harmful. 241 00:12:08,950 --> 00:12:11,380 Speaker 1: I do believe there are some form of harmful effects 242 00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:14,540 Speaker 1: or side effects of feeding. But I do have friends 243 00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: telling me that when they used to smoke cigarettes they 244 00:12:17,850 --> 00:12:18,970 Speaker 1: cough a lot at night. 245 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,350 Speaker 1: But after switching to coffee and so but in terms 246 00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:27,690 Speaker 1: of for yourself, how does it feel? Do you feel 247 00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes vaping? Is it the same for you? It's different. 248 00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:33,780 Speaker 1: I feel like it smell better. No. 249 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess you wouldn't smell like cigarette smoke. I 250 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,010 Speaker 1: smell like strawberries. Yeah. 251 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,429 Speaker 1: By those of health wise I don't see any drastic 252 00:12:46,429 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: change from the switch. So is it your plan to 253 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,020 Speaker 1: eventually stop smoking and stop vaping? Is that something you 254 00:12:54,020 --> 00:12:56,860 Speaker 1: would hope to do? Yeah of course I would just 255 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,270 Speaker 1: stop smoking entirely. So so when it comes to vaping, 256 00:13:01,270 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: do you also feel the urge as much as when 257 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: you were smoking traditional cigarettes? 258 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:09,540 Speaker 1: Not really because I can go for hours without eating 259 00:13:09,540 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: as well. You know sometimes when the battery runs out 260 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:17,110 Speaker 1: I don't octopus, charger with my country also. So 261 00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:20,850 Speaker 1: okay that's actually one way to stop smoking. Just don't 262 00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:23,890 Speaker 1: charge your device and then you have no choice because 263 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:26,490 Speaker 1: the device has to be charged before you can use it. Right? 264 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:30,700 Speaker 1: So what would you say to Sarah? She's hoping to 265 00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:34,860 Speaker 1: stop smoking altogether eventually. And she feels that vaping is 266 00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: one step in that direction. 267 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,470 Speaker 1: What would you say to her about that? 268 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,229 Speaker 2: I would say to her that there are risks involved. 269 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,130 Speaker 2: There are a lot of things that we don't know 270 00:13:43,130 --> 00:13:45,530 Speaker 2: about vaping, but I also know that it has helped 271 00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:48,740 Speaker 2: some people in a certain way. So to carry on, 272 00:13:48,750 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: she has to understand that there are risks that she 273 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,740 Speaker 2: will have to take and there are consequences that she 274 00:13:54,740 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 2: will have to bear. So it's a big risk just 275 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,310 Speaker 2: because it's helping some people doesn't mean it's going to 276 00:14:00,309 --> 00:14:02,330 Speaker 2: help in everyone. So she has to make a judgment 277 00:14:02,330 --> 00:14:04,290 Speaker 2: from there. What's what's best for her 278 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: In Sarah's case, she's saying it's helping her transition to 279 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,250 Speaker 1: a non smoking lifestyle. Is that something that you think 280 00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: would be useful for people who are wanting to stop 281 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,660 Speaker 1: smoking altogether eventually? Can they take this as a step down? 282 00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: Yes, I think so. There is literature suggesting that as 283 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,610 Speaker 1: a method of transition for smoking cessation. Ultimately, this has 284 00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:30,540 Speaker 1: been recommended at places, but there has been this potential 285 00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: challenges that, you know, some people remain addicted to both 286 00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:37,980 Speaker 1: become dual users as long as that doesn't happen. This 287 00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:41,030 Speaker 1: is a reasonable thing to try out. But, you know, 288 00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: I always have to be very careful about that danger 289 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,970 Speaker 1: that if you use it long term, not as a transition, 290 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,940 Speaker 1: then there will be probably almost equal harm to your health. 291 00:14:51,950 --> 00:14:56,090 Speaker 1: That's something to keep in mind. So, would you ever 292 00:14:56,090 --> 00:14:59,930 Speaker 1: recommend a smoker who wants to stop smoking traditional cigarettes? 293 00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,250 Speaker 1: And they say, can I take up vaping as a 294 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:06,010 Speaker 1: way to transition to stopping smoking. 295 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: Does that make 296 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,510 Speaker 2: sense? I've seen quite a few cases where my patients 297 00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:13,500 Speaker 2: have come to me and they've tried it. Some of 298 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,570 Speaker 2: it works as a health care professional. It's really difficult 299 00:15:16,570 --> 00:15:19,510 Speaker 2: for me to recommend something like that because the way 300 00:15:19,510 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: that we work is evidence based protocol, evidence based measures 301 00:15:23,290 --> 00:15:26,350 Speaker 2: in my training as a pharmacist for example you look 302 00:15:26,350 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: at medicines like paracetamol, something used for fever and pain. Right? 303 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,910 Speaker 2: The reason why we can recommend something like that is 304 00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:34,870 Speaker 2: because there's extensive research on it 305 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: and you know that when a person takes paracetamol with 306 00:15:39,650 --> 00:15:42,710 Speaker 2: a certain amount a certain dose, a certain regimen. And 307 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:44,980 Speaker 2: if you take it that way a very very high 308 00:15:44,980 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: percentage of people who experience a certain therapeutic effect. 309 00:15:48,030 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: Which means that if it works for person A. You 310 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: can replicate this in person B person C person D. 311 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,150 Speaker 2: And there's a high chance of success but you can 312 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: only do that if you know exactly what ingredient is 313 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,950 Speaker 2: giving you that effect. You know exactly what kind of 314 00:16:00,950 --> 00:16:06,350 Speaker 2: regimen you use with those chemicals and what protocol is 315 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:08,990 Speaker 2: effective for a certain target population. Do we have that 316 00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:10,550 Speaker 2: with vapes right now, 317 00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:12,850 Speaker 2: I don't even know what's in each pot. I don't 318 00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:15,500 Speaker 2: even know whether it's correct what's on the box. So 319 00:16:15,510 --> 00:16:18,050 Speaker 2: until that happens you're not going to get this into 320 00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:20,490 Speaker 2: the guidelines. I don't think that health care professionals can 321 00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 2: actually recommend it as a medical 322 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: aid. 323 00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:29,300 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are 324 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,180 Speaker 2: the host of a new podcast called working. We're here 325 00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:34,630 Speaker 2: to get into the essential things that no one tells 326 00:16:34,630 --> 00:16:37,730 Speaker 2: you about working and company culture from office politics to 327 00:16:37,730 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: dealing with burnout. If you've ever wanted to eavesdrop on 328 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,660 Speaker 2: an interesting conversation by the water cooler. This podcast is 329 00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:47,550 Speaker 2: for you look out for our episodes wherever you get 330 00:16:47,550 --> 00:16:48,430 Speaker 2: your podcast. 331 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: When you think about it. I warned smoking is pretty harsh. 332 00:16:54,850 --> 00:16:57,190 Speaker 1: Our laws here, you know, we make people like sarah 333 00:16:57,190 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: go stand in the yellow box in some far corner 334 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,260 Speaker 1: of the building. You know when you want to smoke 335 00:17:01,270 --> 00:17:04,379 Speaker 1: and vapes are actually banned here. But this also means 336 00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:07,850 Speaker 1: that we can't regulate it. So some arguments out there 337 00:17:07,850 --> 00:17:11,060 Speaker 1: say that would be better to legalize vaping so that 338 00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:13,890 Speaker 1: we can regulate it just like we do with cigarettes. 339 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,790 Speaker 1: Then the challenge here is understanding what's really in each 340 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: and each pod. So maybe we talk about regulation because 341 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,189 Speaker 1: here it's banned. But we realize for example, we've been 342 00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:28,909 Speaker 1: talking a bit about how could we legalize it and 343 00:17:28,910 --> 00:17:30,970 Speaker 1: regulate it. Would that be better then we can control 344 00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:33,700 Speaker 1: the kind of apes that come in the kind of 345 00:17:33,710 --> 00:17:36,090 Speaker 1: pods that are being used and then we will actually 346 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:39,460 Speaker 1: know what's in these devices. Does that make sense? Would 347 00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:40,310 Speaker 1: that help? 348 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,179 Speaker 2: I do think it's possible. But I think there are 349 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:43,540 Speaker 2: a lot of questions that 350 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,070 Speaker 2: have to be answered firstly, it's the role that these 351 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:50,830 Speaker 2: devices actually play, right? Are they a replacement for cigarettes 352 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,090 Speaker 2: in only existing smokers or do you want them to 353 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: take over cigarettes as the dominant form of nicotine consumption? 354 00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:00,900 Speaker 2: Or are they to be treated purely as a medical 355 00:18:00,910 --> 00:18:03,450 Speaker 2: aid to help a person quit smoking? In that case 356 00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:05,810 Speaker 2: the entire thing will be managed by health care professionals. 357 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: It's not going to be something that you find in 358 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,629 Speaker 2: the provision shops. So if we look at regulation to 359 00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:12,140 Speaker 2: lift the ban totally 360 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: as a knee jerk reaction, I think that's wrong because 361 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,010 Speaker 2: once you open the floodgates, you can't really close it. 362 00:18:18,020 --> 00:18:20,210 Speaker 2: I mean, you look at cigarette smoking right now, you 363 00:18:20,210 --> 00:18:22,469 Speaker 2: say you want to ban cigarettes right now try to 364 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:24,030 Speaker 2: see what the reaction is, right? It's not going to 365 00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:27,060 Speaker 2: be so straightforward and I think that helps them to 366 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:30,990 Speaker 2: fall back on certain principles. When you look at regulation, 367 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 2: For me personally, it should never be a free for 368 00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:36,550 Speaker 2: all product that you can buy a convenience shop. I 369 00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: have to be convinced like scientifically that it's a less 370 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 2: harmful product. 371 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,550 Speaker 2: It has to be part of a certain measure or 372 00:18:43,550 --> 00:18:48,780 Speaker 2: a certain protocol that helps people reduce their tobacco consumption 373 00:18:48,790 --> 00:18:52,420 Speaker 2: measures to prevent youth from getting their hands on it 374 00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:56,669 Speaker 2: have to be extremely clear. And the last thing is 375 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:59,070 Speaker 2: of course enforcement. The rules are only as effective as 376 00:18:59,070 --> 00:18:59,850 Speaker 2: the enforcement. 377 00:18:59,859 --> 00:19:02,379 Speaker 1: So should we treat it the same way we treat 378 00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:06,070 Speaker 1: cigarettes now? So now we put really disturbing pictures on 379 00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:06,980 Speaker 1: the packaging. 380 00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: We have health warnings, We make it really expensive. 381 00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:12,750 Speaker 2: All these kinds of things surely will have a part 382 00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:15,300 Speaker 2: to play right now. I don't think we're ready for 383 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: that because I don't think that people understand what role 384 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: they want these products to play, whether it's recreational or 385 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: whether it's a medical aid, then you'll be treated very, 386 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: very differently. I don't think right now we are ready 387 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: to open the gates yet. 388 00:19:28,250 --> 00:19:30,270 Speaker 1: I mean, Sarah was just telling us that she switched 389 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:32,570 Speaker 1: from cigarettes to vaping because 390 00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:36,290 Speaker 1: it's more convenient and she doesn't smell and there's less 391 00:19:36,290 --> 00:19:38,460 Speaker 1: of a stigma against it. In fact, it is not 392 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:41,060 Speaker 1: regarded as bad as you've rightly pointed out. 393 00:19:41,470 --> 00:19:42,860 Speaker 1: So how are we going to deal with this? Because 394 00:19:42,859 --> 00:19:44,980 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a real challenge. Because the the whole 395 00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: image of vaping is really not as bad compared to 396 00:19:48,730 --> 00:19:49,820 Speaker 1: traditional cigarettes 397 00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:52,340 Speaker 2: because it sounds more cool. It looks more cool. Is 398 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:55,450 Speaker 2: packaged in a way that's way more cool. I think 399 00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: it's important for the population to look at both sides 400 00:19:57,650 --> 00:20:01,189 Speaker 2: of the coin. It does have its benefits. She's rightly mentioned, 401 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,990 Speaker 2: less smell, etcetera. And there's also the other side, right? 402 00:20:04,990 --> 00:20:06,070 Speaker 2: For the group 403 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,980 Speaker 2: of people who have been helped by the product. There's 404 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:11,860 Speaker 2: also the other group whose lungs have collapsed from vaping? Okay, 405 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,460 Speaker 2: so where exactly do you stand on this? It helps 406 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:19,010 Speaker 2: both sides but to say that it can help the 407 00:20:19,010 --> 00:20:23,270 Speaker 2: whole population because a few people have experienced benefits from it. 408 00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:25,430 Speaker 2: I think at this point it's not clear how 409 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: Sarah. What do you think? Are you ever concerned that 410 00:20:27,850 --> 00:20:30,379 Speaker 1: when you're buying something off some chat group in telegram 411 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: that 412 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,060 Speaker 1: maybe you're not even getting the real thing? Yeah. Yeah. 413 00:20:35,070 --> 00:20:39,230 Speaker 1: Doesn't that worry you? Yeah. You got to be extra careful. 414 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,250 Speaker 1: But how can you tell have you ever smoked something 415 00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: or something and like mm this tastes a bit different. 416 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,010 Speaker 1: This smells a bit different. Not really. It's just that 417 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:52,820 Speaker 1: sometimes the device that's about it. Other than that. 418 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:57,490 Speaker 1: Right. Are you not worried that of the possible perhaps 419 00:20:57,490 --> 00:21:00,870 Speaker 1: long term effects from using vaping and because you don't 420 00:21:00,869 --> 00:21:04,310 Speaker 1: really know what's in those pots? Right. I haven't seen 421 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: a lot of articles talking about the detrimental effects of 422 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,270 Speaker 1: as a pharmacist. How do you feel about the fact 423 00:21:10,270 --> 00:21:12,830 Speaker 1: that Sarah also mentioned that she's not very clear what's 424 00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 1: coming in those pots that she buys on telegram. How 425 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,030 Speaker 1: worried should we be about this? That these people are 426 00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:21,780 Speaker 1: smoking things that, well they don't even know what they're 427 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:22,700 Speaker 1: smoking actually. 428 00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: Oh they should be worried. They should definitely be worried. 429 00:21:26,290 --> 00:21:29,010 Speaker 2: Imagine taking a drink and not knowing what's in it. 430 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:32,100 Speaker 2: That can be pretty scary. And we don't know what 431 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,550 Speaker 2: the long term effects of these things actually are. It 432 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: seems to have some kind of benefit. But we don't 433 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,030 Speaker 2: really know how it's going to pan out in the 434 00:21:41,030 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 2: long term. So it's a very very big risk that 435 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: she's taking. 436 00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:48,090 Speaker 2: And if she's comfortable with the risk that some things 437 00:21:48,090 --> 00:21:50,590 Speaker 2: you have to live with it, there are consequences. Would 438 00:21:50,590 --> 00:21:55,500 Speaker 1: you feel safer knowing for example, if they legalize vaping 439 00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:58,820 Speaker 1: and the government says so we make sure only certain devices, 440 00:21:58,820 --> 00:22:01,490 Speaker 1: certain types of pots can come in. So therefore it's 441 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: I guess safer because then you know what you're getting, 442 00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: would that make you feel better? But what if it 443 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: resulted in the vapes becoming like double the price 444 00:22:12,450 --> 00:22:16,510 Speaker 1: mm double the price, then maybe I'll consider not a 445 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: baby anymore. 446 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,510 Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense to me with cigarettes is legal 447 00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:26,610 Speaker 1: but highly regulated and taxed also in Singapore. So we 448 00:22:26,609 --> 00:22:29,450 Speaker 1: can't deny that it's had quite a significant impact on 449 00:22:29,450 --> 00:22:32,149 Speaker 1: smokers here. In fact, compared to much of the region, 450 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:35,210 Speaker 1: we have a very low number of smokers. So I 451 00:22:35,210 --> 00:22:37,710 Speaker 1: guess the question is, will this same approach work with 452 00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 1: vaping And if not? Yeah, why not 453 00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:44,060 Speaker 1: the most important thing in my opinion is doing some 454 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:48,140 Speaker 1: more research on the users here in the local population? 455 00:22:48,140 --> 00:22:51,540 Speaker 1: I mean we have certain research findings from other populations 456 00:22:51,550 --> 00:22:54,690 Speaker 1: but what works here may not be exactly same as 457 00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:57,429 Speaker 1: work might have worked in other countries. So that is 458 00:22:57,430 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: one thing and this research needs investment and this research 459 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:02,850 Speaker 1: will help us 460 00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: personalize the efforts. So for example we have just heard 461 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: from Sarah what is important for her or what could 462 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: be her motivation to get out of this. But Sarah 463 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,550 Speaker 1: is just one individual. So we need to survey them, 464 00:23:16,550 --> 00:23:19,270 Speaker 1: we need to provide certain kind of support. We need 465 00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:22,790 Speaker 1: to experiment on them provide alternatives to them and then 466 00:23:22,790 --> 00:23:25,580 Speaker 1: only we know definitely what might work for this country. 467 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,109 Speaker 1: Okay, one last thing with regards to this issue of 468 00:23:28,109 --> 00:23:30,450 Speaker 1: vaping in Singapore. Maybe what is one thing you feel 469 00:23:30,450 --> 00:23:32,450 Speaker 1: we could do next to sort of help this and 470 00:23:32,450 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: to help you know our young people. Yeah I think 471 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: there needs to be some research on what is the 472 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: problem and what could be their motivation. Understanding that is 473 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,909 Speaker 1: the first thing and then we have to build something 474 00:23:44,910 --> 00:23:47,710 Speaker 1: to help them cope right? They will have the urge 475 00:23:47,710 --> 00:23:52,150 Speaker 1: to smoke or Vape. So how do we provide some alternatives? 476 00:23:52,150 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: Like 477 00:23:52,690 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: in the past for example people used nicotine replacement therapies 478 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: and pads to help them quit smoking. Right. So similar 479 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: approaches or if it is something that they are doing 480 00:24:04,290 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: to cope with stress and anxiety. So then are there 481 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: other ways to cope with stress or anxiety? You have 482 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,850 Speaker 1: to understand the addiction issue rather than you know dealing 483 00:24:15,850 --> 00:24:16,990 Speaker 1: with it in a v 484 00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:19,470 Speaker 1: very heavy handed way. We have to be more compassionate. 485 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,790 Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of things that they 486 00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:24,379 Speaker 2: haven't worked out yet, it's moved much quicker than regulation 487 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:27,220 Speaker 2: can catch up. They have not really decided what role 488 00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 2: they wanted to play and how they're going to slowly 489 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:31,969 Speaker 2: let it in. Because the culture that we have here 490 00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:33,980 Speaker 2: in health care is a lot more conservative, right? Which 491 00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:37,100 Speaker 2: means that we are going to be more cautious. We're 492 00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:39,409 Speaker 2: going to look at what happens everywhere else in the 493 00:24:39,410 --> 00:24:42,510 Speaker 2: world before making a decision. And I think that's the 494 00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: right place to go 495 00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:47,380 Speaker 2: and that's the right way to tackle the problem. Because 496 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:50,850 Speaker 2: at least for us as health care professionals, I'm interested 497 00:24:50,859 --> 00:24:54,270 Speaker 2: in anything that will help in my patient's health, but 498 00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:57,010 Speaker 2: to open the floodgates and put my patients at a 499 00:24:57,010 --> 00:24:59,700 Speaker 2: higher risk. Now, I'm not gonna do that 500 00:24:59,710 --> 00:25:02,770 Speaker 1: Sarah. What do you think? If you had a choice, 501 00:25:02,780 --> 00:25:05,700 Speaker 1: how would you like to move forward with this? 502 00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:09,020 Speaker 1: Honestly, I think the ban should be lifted. I think 503 00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:11,790 Speaker 1: people should have the choice to have an election whether 504 00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:14,450 Speaker 1: they want to be or they want to carry on 505 00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:18,060 Speaker 1: smoking secrets, right? Because I think they think could be 506 00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:21,460 Speaker 1: one of the ways to quit smoking entirely, at least 507 00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:23,830 Speaker 1: for myself. So 508 00:25:23,850 --> 00:25:28,330 Speaker 1: like it's not allowing us. So we can for example, 509 00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:31,610 Speaker 1: let's say I really want to smoke outside in public. 510 00:25:31,619 --> 00:25:35,270 Speaker 1: So I have no choice but to buy a cigarette. Okay, 511 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,689 Speaker 1: well one thing for certain in life we know is that, 512 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: you know, one person's loss could be another person's gain. 513 00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: So whether it's smoking old fashioned cigarettes or vaping, it's 514 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,370 Speaker 1: unlikely that, you know, a country like Singapore, we could 515 00:25:47,369 --> 00:25:48,770 Speaker 1: ever fully eradicate 516 00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: either of these. But I guess it shouldn't stop us 517 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,190 Speaker 1: from trying and from helping those around us. For sure. 518 00:25:54,190 --> 00:25:56,930 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep drumming home this message to my kids, 519 00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:58,830 Speaker 1: let them know that it is one of those cases 520 00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:01,770 Speaker 1: that I truly believe that prevention is better than cure. 521 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,170 Speaker 1: So thank you so much to my guest, Sarah, all 522 00:26:04,170 --> 00:26:05,899 Speaker 1: the best. We hope that next time we talk to you, 523 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:08,770 Speaker 1: maybe you won't be doing either one of them anymore. 524 00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for coming and joining us. Thank 525 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: you to everyone who is listening as well. The team 526 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: behind this podcast, Jackson, chan Joanne, chan Tiffany and Daniel 527 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: lee and Christina robert and I'm Stephen Chair. I'll see 528 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,310 Speaker 1: you next week.