Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Men Explained, where we give
Speaker 1: our most unhinged selves, right, Avery? I think unhinged is
Speaker 1: a perfect word for today because we've got two of
Speaker 1: the most unhinged people on TikTok and it's not. It's
Speaker 1: these two right here with us. Oh my gosh, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show, Dewey and Ryan. How are you guys feeling?
Speaker 2: I'm so happy I'm
Speaker 1: back. OK, but we're going to dissect this because we
Speaker 1: know that we have a lot of different opinions and
Speaker 1: also generational opinions, I would say because entrepreneurs of different
Speaker 1: generations will have different views, I feel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and today we're going to be breaking down your
Speaker 1: businesses as Gen Zs and how you guys started a
Speaker 1: business and how it feels in the world of entrepreneurship
Speaker 1: as a child, sorry, not child, as a Gen Z.
Speaker 1: How old are you? I don't want to he's still
Speaker 1: a child. My mind is a mind of 11 year olds. Alright,
Speaker 1: so let's break it down first. How old are you guys?
Speaker 1: How old do you think we are? Just answer the question.
Speaker 1: It's
Speaker 2: actually, um,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say 24 this year, yes, but I'm still
Speaker 1: 23 223 I'm 2 this year. You're 20 this year.
Speaker 1: He's very young.
Speaker 1: Wait, how do you guys then meet? Is it through
Speaker 1: the creator community or? Now that we know your ages,
Speaker 1: how old were you guys when you started your first business?
Speaker 1: We know that you guys did this thing called Afterlife
Speaker 1: for a while, right? Or why to laugh in the afterlife.
Speaker 2: I mean, I started, it was 2 years ago, right?
Speaker 2: I was 17.
Speaker 1: I wasn't even allowed to drink. No, but
Speaker 2: like I couldn't even enter the club. I still remember
Speaker 2: because at that point in time, you know, when like
Speaker 2: everybody wanted to go party and everything, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I also want to go and then I realized, right,
Speaker 2: that like clubbing is damn expensive in Singapore. OK, especially
Speaker 2: like a 17 year old, right? I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: paying like $40 to go in first
Speaker 1: of all, 17 year olds are not supposed to club.
Speaker 1: So yeah,
Speaker 2: 1717.
Speaker 1: So what made you guys want to do that?
Speaker 1: I was the one that started the idea. I think
Speaker 1: because it was after COVID and then there was a
Speaker 1: rise in like just clubbing culture and then a lot
Speaker 1: of organizers came on the scene and then there was
Speaker 1: this one organizer, so he would invite a lot of
Speaker 1: creators to like events and then like a lot of
Speaker 1: people would turn up to these events because they are
Speaker 1: creators going and then we share about it, right? And
Speaker 1: I was looking at my friend and I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: we can totally do this. We're the one bringing the crowd.
Speaker 1: I also want to do my own kinds of parties
Speaker 1: where we have like our own unique ideas and we
Speaker 1: really build on the community building.
Speaker 1: Aspect of like a club. If you realize through all
Speaker 1: our events, right, we always have events or like activities
Speaker 1: throughout the party that will have people mingling, you know,
Speaker 1: so we want to have icebreakers or not just like
Speaker 1: go there, drink boring. So I got this other guy
Speaker 1: to do it with me, this other creator, and then
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I need someone to do PR
Speaker 1: for us, like someone to do marketing, and then that
Speaker 1: was Ryan. So my diploma was in events management, so
Speaker 1: I could do like the on ground and I like
Speaker 1: doing that, like the lights, the music.
Speaker 1: The sets and whatnot and then the other guy was
Speaker 1: doing design and then he was in charge of marketing
Speaker 1: and PR yeah, at that point in time.
Speaker 2: So at that point of time I was just like, OK,
Speaker 2: I like to make money, right? I mean, who doesn't?
Speaker 2: So I was like, let's try to like get as
Speaker 2: many sponsors. It was our first ever event. Um, I
Speaker 2: told them that like I didn't want to like start
Speaker 2: with like a loss, right? So let's let's just try
Speaker 2: to find a way that we can get the money
Speaker 2: to secure the location to get, you know, so we
Speaker 2: are not loaning from anyone, you know, I don't want
Speaker 2: to go through any of that. So our first sponsor.
Speaker 2: I remember they came in clutch, they sponsored our first
Speaker 2: ever event, so all the money that we made from
Speaker 2: our first event throughout the whole entire Afterlife, um, was
Speaker 2: reinvested back into the company. So just kind of
Speaker 1: let it roll. So that's why we started I actually.
Speaker 1: The capital built from Afterlife was used to start up
Speaker 1: IO we actually started with. Why the switch then because
Speaker 1: we noticed that is dying is dying. You think so?
Speaker 1: We saw it coming. Like now if you look at
Speaker 1: the news, no, is empty Holland.
Speaker 1: a lot of the pubs and bars are
Speaker 2: empty. If you look at the analytics of our events, right,
Speaker 2: because after every event I was just looking back into
Speaker 2: like the finance and everything, and I'm just like, wow,
Speaker 2: last time we could like sell out an event like 500,
Speaker 2: 700 packs in like what, two weeks and then nearing
Speaker 2: like the start of like, I mean 2 years last year, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was like very slow already. I was like wait
Speaker 2: what is going on?
Speaker 1: I think it's like when the post-COVID revenge partying died down.
Speaker 1: I think it was. Yeah, at one point I think
Speaker 1: Aces and I were going out like 3 times a
Speaker 1: week maybe twice.
Speaker 1: No, but I think, I think it's different for us
Speaker 1: because Sosa and I actually we met at work and
Speaker 1: then we became really close and we started partying together
Speaker 1: and then COVID hit and we stopped, right? Everything became
Speaker 1: super wholesome like she she became domesticated. She cooks, she
Speaker 1: cooks soup for me, you know, yeah, but then after that,
Speaker 1: when it started again and partying happened, that's when we
Speaker 1: were like, oh my God, we missed this, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: but this is coming from two millennials, right? Were people
Speaker 1: at your parties, right? Were they Gen Z as well?
Speaker 1: Yes, mostly mostly Gen Z. So do you think it's
Speaker 1: because you guys were Gen Z creators or do you
Speaker 1: think it's because you guys were Gen Z entrepreneurs that
Speaker 1: you guys drew a Gen Z crowd to the party scene?
Speaker 1: Definitely Gen Z creators. I don't think anyone saw us
Speaker 1: as entrepreneurs at that point in time. We were just organizers,
Speaker 1: you know. It's a bit of both because you also
Speaker 1: know what you guys like, like what your friends like,
Speaker 1: and that's what you were doing too, right? So like
Speaker 1: Gen Z and whatever was like trending at that point
Speaker 1: in time. We really niche in on like Gen Z.
Speaker 1: trends and like like for example, our Halloween party was
Speaker 1: called Villain era and it's very show up in like
Speaker 1: villain costumes. Yeah, just like an inflatable dick, you know,
Speaker 1: we've seen this guy. OK, so then segueing into your
Speaker 1: new business, how did that change then? So
Speaker 2: like right now I think ever since like the nightlife site, right,
Speaker 2: we were like, OK, it's not working, right, we got
Speaker 2: to like pivot and then the one thing that I
Speaker 2: realized very quickly was that a lot of brands out there.
Speaker 2: I want to get onto the TikTok app, right? But
Speaker 2: then they don't have a team of Gen Zs or
Speaker 2: like people who are actually using the app to actually
Speaker 2: understand the kind of landscape that they are dealing with.
Speaker 2: So we realized that a lot of millennials want to touch,
Speaker 2: like reach out to the Gen Z, but like they
Speaker 2: don't know how. So we were like, hey, TikTok is
Speaker 2: like our realm. I've been doing TikTok for like 5
Speaker 2: years now, you know what I mean? Like it's changed
Speaker 2: so much and like we've right through that change, you know.
Speaker 2: So we were like, OK, you know what, maybe we
Speaker 2: can be the middle ground to help these brands who
Speaker 2: want
Speaker 2: To like grow to like reach out to like the
Speaker 2: Gen Zs and let us help them, you know. So
Speaker 2: I think that was that was what we started to
Speaker 2: think of and then moving like a little bit deeper,
Speaker 2: we realized that like Gen Zs will be the next
Speaker 2: replacement market. A lot of brands right now don't look
Speaker 2: at the replacement market which are Gen Z, which will
Speaker 2: eventually be the ones spending on their brand. You can
Speaker 2: focus on the ones that are spending right now, but
Speaker 2: you can't forget about the replacement market,
Speaker 1: yeah, you just need to bring awareness. You know, I
Speaker 1: feel the idea of entrepreneurship has changed so much from
Speaker 1: our parents' generation to our generation to their generation.
Speaker 1: In the past, it was always seen as always very risky.
Speaker 1: It's very like, you got to really be careful with
Speaker 1: what you do if you want to start a business.
Speaker 1: And then I think with the millennials, it was more
Speaker 1: of like they were starting things like starting cafes, it changes, right?
Speaker 1: And then the younger millennials started becoming a bit more
Speaker 1: like risk takers. They're like, OK, we can use social
Speaker 1: media to start and then it comes to you guys.
Speaker 1: I will say that it's it's a shift that even
Speaker 1: while you're talking about it, right?
Speaker 1: Talk about like starting a business, right? The first thing
Speaker 1: that comes to mind is how much capital do we have, right?
Speaker 1: But you see the difference between the two of them
Speaker 1: was I'm not going to have capital. I'm going to
Speaker 1: find sponsors to pay for that. So it's always a
Speaker 1: difference in that risk. Yes, it's a risk, but for
Speaker 1: us it's like we got to have a certain amount
Speaker 1: to blow when they're like, we don't want to spend
Speaker 1: any money and it worked for them. Exactly. So the
Speaker 1: perspective changed over the years I would say. But do
Speaker 1: you think it's because you guys are Gen Zs or
Speaker 1: because you guys were creators that you guys thought.
Speaker 1: We've got a bit more leverage to do this.
Speaker 2: Like realistically
Speaker 2: speaking, I think afterlife at that point in time wasn't
Speaker 2: like our main thing, right? We all had our own
Speaker 2: social media careers before that. So in terms of risk,
Speaker 2: if any of us think we said this before, like
Speaker 2: if we needed to pump in money, we know that
Speaker 2: we can, but like let's just try to not do that,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. But also at the
Speaker 1: same time, because you guys started so young, right, do
Speaker 1: you think there was a time where people weren't really
Speaker 1: taking you seriously? They were like, Oh, they're just doing
Speaker 1: it for fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the other day during, um, we had like lunch
Speaker 2: together with the whole entire team and then one of
Speaker 2: the representatives told us that like, hey, you know, before
Speaker 2: we sign you right, actually we didn't really believe in
Speaker 2: like your agency because like you and Dey are like
Speaker 2: and the other partner was like the face of it,
Speaker 2: and then you guys do like just heha kids and
Speaker 2: then we don't know whether to take your seriously to
Speaker 2: like represent our brand. Like it was quite what the
Speaker 2: hell lah, but at the end of the day we
Speaker 2: made them so much money, so I'm just like, you
Speaker 2: know what, you can take that and shove it up
Speaker 2: your ass, you know, like.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of other Gen Zs would actually
Speaker 1: feel the same way because I think age is a
Speaker 1: very big thing, especially in the community and the social
Speaker 1: structure that we live in in Singapore. It's always going
Speaker 1: to be like, you know, oh, you're too young, you
Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: heard that a lot so often and I think like
Speaker 2: a lot of people just and and I still till
Speaker 2: today like just not just finished a meeting, right, and
Speaker 2: then the person asked me, oh, so how old are you?
Speaker 2: And 9 out of 10 times I would never answer
Speaker 2: that question because I just know that once I do, right,
Speaker 2: they'll be like, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do they have the expertise to do this? But
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, it's like we know
Speaker 2: our shit so well that like we know the space,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like if you don't trust us,
Speaker 2: you can go to another agency, but I just know
Speaker 2: that you're going to regret it because once you come back,
Speaker 2: it's going to be more expensive.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. Do you think it's wrong
Speaker 1: for people to think that like to look at the
Speaker 1: number of years of experience as something that they want
Speaker 1: to consider before hiring? Because I know sometimes when we talk, OK,
Speaker 1: how long have you been hosting? That's fair.
Speaker 1: For 10 years versus someone 01 year, then likely they
Speaker 1: might go for the person who has had more experience, right?
Speaker 1: So do you feel like the number of years of
Speaker 1: experience is extremely
Speaker 1: important?
Speaker 2: I think it's slightly different. I think the number of
Speaker 2: years of experience definitely matter, but I think the point
Speaker 2: that I want to bring across here was that like
Speaker 2: they ask us how old we are. For example, like
Speaker 2: I started content creation since I was like taking my
Speaker 2: O levels, you know what I mean? 5 years in,
Speaker 2: like that's my experience, but just because I'm 20.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a bit too young, but I still have
Speaker 2: 5 years of experience, you know, like some other agencies
Speaker 2: have never got on TikTok at all, maybe last 1 year,
Speaker 2: 2 years, you know, so I think the number of
Speaker 2: experiences do matter, but like when clients see us as like, oh,
Speaker 2: we are too young in terms of like age, I
Speaker 2: think that's why I have a problem with, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Obviously, um, we're talking about gender as well. So when
Speaker 1: you guys are there, who's more front facing when you
Speaker 1: guys are meeting clients, you are.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be very honest about this. Um,
Speaker 1: a lot of the times when we speak to clients,
Speaker 1: I always let Ryan take the lead. I'm very, I
Speaker 1: like to be on the ground. I like to just
Speaker 1: do things behind the doors. I just work with my
Speaker 1: team because I'm not going to lie lah. I don't
Speaker 1: know is it because of my persona online or is
Speaker 1: it because of my gender, you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to put him on anything, but I do realize that
Speaker 1: sometimes people take him more seriously compared to me when
Speaker 1: they have something serious, they didn't want to bring up
Speaker 1: to like the higher ups in I go right, they
Speaker 1: go to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very rarely they come to me, only if I've
Speaker 1: really talked to that person and I've built trust with them.
Speaker 1: So then to me, I will just take a step back.
Speaker 1: I'm OK to let him find you.
Speaker 1: Um, sometimes, but sometimes I will ask myself, oh, is
Speaker 1: it because of my gender, or is it because of
Speaker 1: the persona that I have online, but I try not
Speaker 1: to blame those kind of things because those things are
Speaker 1: not things that I can change, but right now I
Speaker 1: know I'm young, I'm a girl, those are facts, but
Speaker 1: what I can do is to just be credible enough
Speaker 1: that people will respect me, maybe in the future. This
Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to build right now because I
Speaker 1: am still young, you know,
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: I see that like sometimes like the clients like reach
Speaker 2: out to me and then Dewey is just like.
Speaker 2: You know, I actually I texted the client already, but
Speaker 2: the client never replied to me, but then I texted
Speaker 2: the client like 2 minutes instant reply, you know, and
Speaker 2: as a business partner, right, I got to tell the
Speaker 2: client like, hey, um, Dey texted you as well, and
Speaker 2: I think I would appreciate like if you could promptly
Speaker 2: reply to her as well because we are the same,
Speaker 2: you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 1: You're trying to make it work, but is there a
Speaker 1: difference in the way that the two of you communicate?
Speaker 1: Like what's your communication style with clients? We're both very formal.
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine.
Speaker 1: It's a difference.
Speaker 1: I mean, for example, I'm a client and you want to,
Speaker 1: if we're just bumping on this, I just need a
Speaker 1: few things back from you and then I'll list it
Speaker 1: on point form very clearly. Let me know when I
Speaker 1: can get back to you if you need a call,
Speaker 1: just let me know. I'm very, very like circle back.
Speaker 2: Corporate lingo guys like we're not like that,
Speaker 1: but that's good to know because sometimes people might have
Speaker 1: this preconceived notion of what they see on social media
Speaker 1: and think that that's what they're going to get. I
Speaker 1: think because we
Speaker 2: have very
Speaker 2: loud personalities online, right? But then at the same time
Speaker 2: like people don't know that there's another side of us,
Speaker 2: you know, like, sure, you know, like, but.
Speaker 1: That's what
Speaker 2: the hell?
Speaker 1: You won't
Speaker 1: know until you find out, I always say this, right,
Speaker 1: that as long as you have a personality online, the
Speaker 1: world thinks that they can have an opinion of who
Speaker 1: you are as a person based off that, right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I always, always.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you as well, right, because I
Speaker 1: know this person? Is this person my podcast partner? No,
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, right, how old were
Speaker 1: you when you said that you wanted to try and
Speaker 1: do something outside of radio in your own personal space
Speaker 1: like entrepreneurship wise? If you remember, I did do F&B
Speaker 1: for a little bit with a bunch of other partners
Speaker 1: like we ran a barakaya style sort of place, and
Speaker 1: I was about 26 when we started talking about it.
Speaker 1: But it was a period of time where I was
Speaker 1: still building my brand because I didn't start as early
Speaker 1: as you guys. I started like when I was 21
Speaker 1: into radio and into all this, and I'm not naturally
Speaker 1: a person that would be like, yes, I'm in front
Speaker 1: of the camera like that was not actually in my nature. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was more of like I want to write and
Speaker 1: be a journalist, that kind of person. I'm not this, no,
Speaker 1: I never expected myself to do this.
Speaker 1: I took a while to like build that, you know,
Speaker 1: and we also were at a time where there was
Speaker 1: like no TikTok, it was only Instagram, right? And then
Speaker 1: at 26 there was an opportunity that presented itself. If
Speaker 1: it wasn't an opportunity that came by, maybe I would
Speaker 1: not have even taken it, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Based
Speaker 1: on that, right, let's say you're looking at both.
Speaker 1: Kind of entrepreneurship situations, right, as a millennial and as
Speaker 1: a Gen Z, do you guys see any similarities or
Speaker 1: is it a lot of differences?
Speaker 2: I think it's quite similar in the sense that like
Speaker 2: when opportunity is given, right, that's that's where I go.
Speaker 2: You should take it, you should take it because if
Speaker 2: we didn't have our first client, right, it's very hard
Speaker 2: to prove to our other clients that we actually know
Speaker 2: what we're doing. Until today, I'm still so grateful.
Speaker 2: very first client JBL, you know, like, thanks for signing
Speaker 2: with us, you know, because of that, right, we still
Speaker 2: use your account as like um yeah, I need to
Speaker 2: circle back because a lot of people feel like it's
Speaker 2: very tough to be so young and create like an
Speaker 2: impression to like the older people, right? I don't want
Speaker 2: to say this, but like how older people just give
Speaker 2: these young people a chance because you never know they
Speaker 2: could actually make more of a difference than like what.
Speaker 2: Your bubble,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Does it make you more motivated to win over other
Speaker 1: people when you get treated in a sort of a
Speaker 1: not so nice manner or when people doubt you? Does
Speaker 1: that give you more fuel and motivation? Yeah, so circling
Speaker 1: back to the whole thing a lot more corporate lingo.
Speaker 1: My email says sent by my iPhone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, going back to the part where I talked
Speaker 1: about how I feel um like I'm not taking it
Speaker 1: seriously because I'm a girl and I have my own
Speaker 1: online persona, right? So sometimes I would lie in bed
Speaker 1: and like ask myself, do they see me as a clown?
Speaker 2: No,
Speaker 1: they
Speaker 1: don't. Did you see a clown? Oh well, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not my fault. I'm funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will literally have like identity crisis. I will
Speaker 1: ask myself, like, do I need to change who I
Speaker 1: am online so that they will take Iko seriously? So
Speaker 1: there's this like, I feel this conflict sometimes right between
Speaker 1: like the detri persona and the Iko persona because people
Speaker 1: see me in offices and they're like, Hey, you're actually normal.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, then you think what? You think I'm
Speaker 1: just crazy. This is normal. I mean, yeah, so I've
Speaker 1: always wondered if I should just tone myself down, but
Speaker 1: then I realized like.
Speaker 1: No, we
Speaker 2: had this conversation before,
Speaker 1: what I want to work towards now as I say,
Speaker 1: is to just like let my accomplishments speak for itself. Honestly,
Speaker 1: the best way to prove people wrong is through your
Speaker 1: own success. that's what I feel. You don't need to
Speaker 1: even say anything or like they can just
Speaker 2: see for themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, we all see this online as well. You
Speaker 1: don't present yourself as a traditionally masculine man, right? It's
Speaker 1: very prevalent about that and you are very open about that.
Speaker 1: Has clients or people in general ever turned away because
Speaker 1: of this thing or they treated you a little bit
Speaker 1: differently
Speaker 1: because of
Speaker 2: that? Differently definitely have. I think it goes both ways. Like,
Speaker 2: for example, if it is a beauty client, well I
Speaker 2: think 90% I can close, you know what I mean
Speaker 2: like I literally embody what this Sephora Squad, I do
Speaker 2: beauty that's my whole entire content. I'm doing it for
Speaker 2: 4 years now, right? But then if it comes to
Speaker 2: like more like those tech lifestyle.
Speaker 2: Kind, I find myself actually like dressing
Speaker 1: down or muting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it sucks to say this, you know, but
Speaker 2: there was once I went into a meeting and then
Speaker 2: I had like one of my employees inside as well, right?
Speaker 2: The person didn't even look at me. The person just
Speaker 2: looked at my employee like talking to him as if
Speaker 2: like he runs the place and he knows
Speaker 2: that.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's because some people generally don't know
Speaker 1: what to say or they feel awkward? Are they of
Speaker 1: a different generation or different mindset?
Speaker 1: It is the older generation, right, so maybe they don't
Speaker 1: know how to approach or like
Speaker 2: I mean it could be that um I don't want
Speaker 2: to like say like oh because I wear makeup because
Speaker 2: maybe you could you could maybe they scared, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, I don't know, but it did like
Speaker 2: it did kind of affect me a little bit because
Speaker 2: I was just like, wow, my son like wow, become
Speaker 2: like a man like what's up bro, you know, like
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: mean obviously,
Speaker 1: well, you know, side tracking a little bit, there was,
Speaker 1: this was quite recent.
Speaker 1: I overheard a conversation at another table of older generation, right,
Speaker 1: and there was a guy that walked past that was
Speaker 1: like doing shoots. This guy was wearing like more of
Speaker 1: a feminine outfit with heels, and I overheard this other
Speaker 1: guy say, Wow, guys wear heels now. The other one said,
Speaker 1: don't look, don't look. I
Speaker 2: don't know, definitely,
Speaker 1: yeah, so I think they're just awkward, like they don't
Speaker 1: know how to react. They don't want to make you
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable, but in turn they actually so how would
Speaker 1: you
Speaker 1: Navigate this.
Speaker 2: I think for me at the end of the day, right,
Speaker 2: I got to put my personal feelings aside if I
Speaker 2: want to grow the brand, right? So if it makes
Speaker 2: the client more comfortable, and I know it sucks for
Speaker 2: me to say this because I got to like dumb
Speaker 2: myself down, but like if that is what it takes
Speaker 2: to to close the client and make them feel comfortable,
Speaker 2: that's what I would do. But I must say that
Speaker 2: I want I could to go to the day where
Speaker 2: I don't have to do this anymore. Like if you
Speaker 2: want to come to me, you.
Speaker 2: Come to me. If not, I don't need your business,
Speaker 2: you know what I
Speaker 1: mean? I like the confidence here, like, you know, if
Speaker 1: you want to come to you want, don't want, don't want.
Speaker 1: But what if people come through with like, Hey guys,
Speaker 1: I think you could have done this better. Are you
Speaker 1: open to that kind of criticism of course,
Speaker 2: of course. I think, I think our agency grew quite
Speaker 2: a lot from the start and thanks to our interns,
Speaker 2: our employees, yeah, you know what, maybe you can do
Speaker 2: this differently, maybe you all can subscribe to.
Speaker 2: This like HR plan, you know what I mean it
Speaker 2: really it really you know ecosystem, you
Speaker 2: know.
Speaker 1: So you guys are actually very, very much open to
Speaker 1: like change and everything. I always sit down and ask
Speaker 1: them like what do you think can be done better.
Speaker 1: It's really good because I feel that not generalizing it
Speaker 1: as a generational thing or what, but I think I've
Speaker 1: definitely heard this before where people say, if it ain't broke,
Speaker 1: don't fix it. And that also indicates that there's not much.
Speaker 1: Change or progress.
Speaker 2: But also like context is that we are a smaller company,
Speaker 2: so we can do that, you know what I mean
Speaker 2: because I know a lot of bigger companies like oh
Speaker 2: because higher management say already but like in our company especially,
Speaker 2: I think we want to make it very clear that
Speaker 2: like be your intern, your employee, like we all share
Speaker 2: the same level in terms of like how we can
Speaker 2: improve the company together.
Speaker 1: How many people are there in your company? 12.
Speaker 1: Older than you or younger than you guys around all
Speaker 1: right because I was going to say that if you
Speaker 1: guys hired somebody who is older, do you think was
Speaker 1: there an issue? How much older?
Speaker 2: 28
Speaker 1: and did they see it in a situation where, oh,
Speaker 1: you're younger, you don't know what you're talking about, even
Speaker 1: though you're my bosses. OK, so the employee was very nice, right?
Speaker 1: He was lovely to work with. But I think when
Speaker 1: it comes down to like conflicts when I have to.
Speaker 1: Tell him you can't do this. And when I'm very
Speaker 1: stunned about it, right? I'm not going to lie, I
Speaker 1: think it kind of like hurt his ego a little bit,
Speaker 1: knowing that someone so much younger is telling him that
Speaker 1: and it never feels great, but it has to be done.
Speaker 1: And don't worry, I'm not an abusive boss. I'm always
Speaker 1: very like no one thought you were. I'm very constructive.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is wrong. You do this. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to call your name.
Speaker 1: Or whatever, you know what I mean? But then like
Speaker 1: I think he couldn't take it and then I saw
Speaker 1: him broke down because of that and I felt so
Speaker 1: bad for him. Yeah, then he told me that like
Speaker 1: he want to go somewhere else to work. So I
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, I'm happy for you. What
Speaker 1: do you say is completely right, right? The way that
Speaker 1: you approach a situation, it's not about calling them names,
Speaker 1: it's how you say it, right? Not that way where
Speaker 1: it's like it's, you know, yeah, but I'm trying to
Speaker 1: be her, OK, you get, you get my point.
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, you actually spoke to me like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes I don't do it no but because sometimes if
Speaker 1: I'm very serious, right, OK,
Speaker 2: wait, wait, I must just say when Dewey is I
Speaker 2: get scared.
Speaker 1: A lot of them just cry. But then again I
Speaker 1: also feel like it's the strawberry generation, and I can
Speaker 1: say that because I'm a Gen Z. Really, you only
Speaker 1: need to stop crying, OK. But
Speaker 2: like genuinely don't how
Speaker 1: to feel.
Speaker 1: Grow up. So you guys seem really close outside of work.
Speaker 1: That's right. Has this ever taken a toll on your
Speaker 1: friendship before and what is the reality of doing a
Speaker 1: business together? I mean, I know that we're talking a
Speaker 1: lot about like your clients dealing with them, the glamorous
Speaker 1: side of things, and almost tell us what is the
Speaker 1: reality of things. It's great. I love Ryan so much.
Speaker 1: He's my best friend. But you have a fight? No,
Speaker 1: we have our fight.
Speaker 1: in one hour.
Speaker 2: we don't, we don't carry on. I feel like don't
Speaker 2: hold
Speaker 1: grudges tiring.
Speaker 2: You want to go and bring on so long
Speaker 1: for one to assess the fight and then we come
Speaker 1: up with solutions and then we conclusion. That's it. Give
Speaker 1: us one very strategic one example of a fight that
Speaker 1: you guys have. I was asking him, oh, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get to sponsor.
Speaker 1: I ask him, what color you want, you say he
Speaker 1: wants red color. OK, I love you I got you,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I'm not gonna have 3 red color
Speaker 1: chairs just like spiraling in my office. So he got
Speaker 1: every other thing else for like our office, right? Like
Speaker 1: he got the water dispenser. He didn't run through me,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, get it, whatever. I did the whole
Speaker 1: it also red water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I let him choose all the colors and the
Speaker 1: things for office. I kind of trust him, but because
Speaker 1: I'm getting a goin chair. So I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to make the decision to choose
Speaker 1: black chairs instead because I just think it's easy on
Speaker 1: the eyes. So you all basically fought over the colors
Speaker 1: of the chairs. Yeah, so then when the chairs, right,
Speaker 1: he realized it was black. I was like, Why didn't
Speaker 1: you tell me that it's gonna become black? I said, uh,
Speaker 1: but you also didn't tell me that the water dispenser
Speaker 1: is gonna be the $80 dispenser. I thought we're getting
Speaker 1: the $3 dispenser from Shopei. You know I mine. Then
Speaker 1: after that it became a fight, he's like, why didn't
Speaker 1: you tell me? I should have been.
Speaker 1: No I'm like, but you didn't tell me other things
Speaker 1: too and I let you have the executive position. So
Speaker 1: you all kind of just worked it out.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: want to share a bit more about um how the
Speaker 2: company started with more than just both of us. I mean,
Speaker 2: as nice as you want to make it seem right,
Speaker 2: like it's not all like happy like this company because
Speaker 2: it really wasn't like it was quite rough, I would
Speaker 2: say like we started off with 3 different people when
Speaker 2: we first incorporated our company and now it's just me
Speaker 2: and Dewey, and I think if like you're a young entrepreneur, right?
Speaker 2: Um, and you and you're planning to like start something
Speaker 2: with like your friend, I think the most important thing
Speaker 2: is to have similar working styles because I think a
Speaker 2: lot of conflicts will come up when you guys work
Speaker 2: very differently. So,
Speaker 2: Like you got to know who you're working with, babes,
Speaker 2: because even for us, right, we kind of didn't like
Speaker 2: each other when we first I
Speaker 1: hated him. We hated each other when we first started working,
Speaker 1: but I saw his value and I knew he was
Speaker 1: a really smart guy, and I was like, I want
Speaker 1: this person on my team. Yeah, and then we actually
Speaker 1: became best friends through working together. So I want to
Speaker 1: debunk this, right? A lot of people always say, Oh,
Speaker 1: will you fight with your friends or like don't go
Speaker 1: into business with your friends. Don't get money. I just
Speaker 1: like to say that.
Speaker 1: We do it now. No, but didn't you just say
Speaker 1: that you guys didn't like each other? Yeah, but because
Speaker 1: of I go we became so close. So technically you
Speaker 1: didn't go into business as friends. We were friends, but
Speaker 1: we weren't like close friends, you know, we were like friend.
Speaker 2: It was like she's just there, you know, but then
Speaker 2: I started to like
Speaker 1: her. No, but I just want to say that.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that businesses breaks friendship. I feel like
Speaker 1: it shows you whether or not your friendship can actually
Speaker 1: tie to hard times. And
Speaker 2: some people are better off as friends than business partners.
Speaker 2: I think that's what we realized and especially when we
Speaker 2: had to like let go one of our business partners, right?
Speaker 2: I think it was, it was not easy definitely. We
Speaker 2: were at our old office, we all sat in the
Speaker 2: room together and we were like, so what is your
Speaker 2: vision for for ICO, you know? And then I think
Speaker 2: We, we sooner or later realized that like the other
Speaker 2: partner had like different plans and we were like, OK,
Speaker 2: you know what, if you're going to double down and
Speaker 2: put 110% because we're gonna, we just moved to our
Speaker 2: new office, so we were like, it's just gonna be
Speaker 2: us then, you know, and then bye bye. I think
Speaker 2: deep down he also kind of wanted to leave, so
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: think he wanted to pursue other things. I mean, no
Speaker 1: hard feelings. He just had other pursuits in life.
Speaker 1: I am happy for him and I want him to
Speaker 1: do well, but I have to be very honest and
Speaker 1: say that like the company really tested our friendship and
Speaker 1: I've realized that like.
Speaker 1: We don't align on a lot of things, but that's OK.
Speaker 1: He's still a great person. I think he's still talented
Speaker 1: in his own ways. He's happier now and I'm happy
Speaker 1: for him. So speaking of, yeah, we know friends and
Speaker 1: all that that get involved into businesses. I'm sure you
Speaker 1: guys shared it with your families too.
Speaker 2: My dad is, he's his own entrepreneur, he has his
Speaker 2: own business and whatever he does events like he does weddings.
Speaker 2: So when I told him, I think he was trying
Speaker 2: to relieve his like youth in me, you know, like
Speaker 2: I was like, well, let me give you some advice.
Speaker 2: So it was very nice and the point.
Speaker 2: time when we were doing afterlife as well, right, like
Speaker 2: a lot of props for not that we need, I
Speaker 2: could just like, hi, do you have like extra or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I really felt like there was like a backing,
Speaker 2: you know. I saw my mom, like she was really
Speaker 2: proud of me to just start something on my own
Speaker 2: and when I told her that I was doing with
Speaker 2: Dewey because my mom loves Dewey, you know, so she
Speaker 2: was like, oh my God, let's, you know, can't wait
Speaker 2: to see where she's going, and I think like the
Speaker 2: point that they really was like, OK, this is like
Speaker 2: legit was when we just moved to our recent office.
Speaker 2: They came and stopped by and they were like, wow,
Speaker 2: you're actually like
Speaker 2: Doing it and that was when I almost cried. I
Speaker 2: was like, wow, you know, like, like that validation from
Speaker 2: like my parents just felt like it was everything.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 1: That's really sweet. What about you? I was doing social
Speaker 1: media and they're just like, What are you doing? I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm a creator. No, because my, my actually my dad,
Speaker 1: I don't think he understands what I'm doing till now, right?
Speaker 1: He's like, What are you doing? So I tell him like, Oh,
Speaker 1: was she got Mingxing, meaning I'm like a superstar. That's it.
Speaker 1: So I think he still thinks I'm like a superstar.
Speaker 1: Or whatever. So now, now that you own Iko and
Speaker 1: you run Iko and you explain this to him like, Dad, look,
Speaker 1: I run like a marketing agency and whatnot, is he
Speaker 1: more receptive and is he more like, oh, I get
Speaker 1: that now. OK, I'm going to be honest. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm not at that stage where my parents will
Speaker 1: look at me and be like.
Speaker 1: That's much, you know what I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: my parents set the standard for me at like the sky.
Speaker 1: I have to be on Forbes or something, then my
Speaker 1: father would be like, oh.
Speaker 1: Legitim own an agency. I thought you were unemployed so
Speaker 1: now they just still think that you're xing. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but I think it's very normal for anyone in the
Speaker 1: media industry, right? I'm very lucky that my parents were
Speaker 1: in media, so they were very supportive of like media
Speaker 1: because I had other friends and people whom I've dated before, right,
Speaker 1: you know, whose mom and dad didn't approve of them
Speaker 1: dating me because they're like, what's she doing in media?
Speaker 1: What do they even do? And this is this is pre-TikTok, pre-instagram,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like I'm still in school studying like.
Speaker 1: What? God, what do they do? And that that perception
Speaker 1: is already
Speaker 1: there.
Speaker 1: The I until they see me on the poster or
Speaker 1: the bus stop or the TV, then I'm like, oh, OK,
Speaker 1: she's doing something as a small company, what are some
Speaker 1: things that you guys have experienced that that you guys
Speaker 1: want to spill some tea maybe young
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs
Speaker 2: maybe because I do a lot of the pitching a
Speaker 2: lot of clients. I tell you.
Speaker 2: No, a lot, a lot of them, right, they were like,
Speaker 2: I guess are quite new, ah, maybe, uh, your retainer package,
Speaker 2: you all give us, I can give us free la.
Speaker 2: You give me 3 videos free, OK. Then after I
Speaker 2: will ask my friend sign with you so, trust me,
Speaker 2: the friend doesn't exist, OK. Then like, yeah, or maybe
Speaker 2: ah it too expensive for you're 2 year old only
Speaker 2: you all can charge so high man lower lower for me, OK,
Speaker 2: the thing is like.
Speaker 2: If we say OK, we're just devaluing ourselves, and the
Speaker 2: thing is that we need to pay people, you know,
Speaker 2: so I just feel because we are young, they just
Speaker 2: feel like they can just, OK la, take advantage of
Speaker 2: them because I see
Speaker 1: that we are giving you a chance. That's the thing, yeah.
Speaker 1: They feel like you need them more than they need you,
Speaker 2: but they need the help the social media, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean.
Speaker 2: No, and then also because me and you are creators, right,
Speaker 2: a lot of them will be like, OK, OK, beside you, ah,
Speaker 2: then inside the video you and be inside, OK, it's
Speaker 1: like. They asked us to post on our account, but
Speaker 1: the thing is that we charge for that. That's different,
Speaker 1: you know I mean it's not fair to my other
Speaker 1: clients who actually pay good money for me to produce
Speaker 1: videos for them, and then they want to load our
Speaker 1: face some more. Maybe
Speaker 2: you can try, but you never, you know, like, girl,
Speaker 1: what is something that has happened.
Speaker 1: With Iko, right, or maybe as young entrepreneurs, right, that's
Speaker 1: going to like blow our minds. I think this thing
Speaker 1: happened to us and it made me realize that it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how many followers I have. I'm a small
Speaker 1: company and and if something happens and I need to
Speaker 1: take legal action, I don't actually have that much backing
Speaker 1: to go against a big company. So this is what
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about the time that we got scammed.
Speaker 1: So Afterlife is under ICO and before Afterlife was gone,
Speaker 1: ICO was already running. So we actually did an event
Speaker 1: for a client with the Afterlife name. So we actually
Speaker 1: brought in our organic customers. It was a nightlife event.
Speaker 1: So the practice is every time after a night, what
Speaker 1: the club would do, the manager, he will like run
Speaker 1: out the receipt from the cash register to show you
Speaker 1: all the transactions from the night, so we know exactly
Speaker 1: what's our commission because
Speaker 1: As organizers, we do take a commission of all the
Speaker 1: alcohol sold for the sales of the night. So this company, right,
Speaker 1: this sucky company this event right was fully packed.
Speaker 2: We sold out so quick. People were lining up at
Speaker 2: the lift trying to get in. OK, we were
Speaker 1: full rack, right? And then my manager, he closed a
Speaker 1: lot of tables because he's a very buddy buddy guy.
Speaker 1: He closed a lot of tables and a lot of
Speaker 1: those uh openers were like.
Speaker 1: His friends, and then we were like, OK, it's a
Speaker 1: great night. Can't wait to see how much we've made.
Speaker 1: And then at the end of the night, right, when
Speaker 1: my manager asked him, Oh, can you draw out the
Speaker 1: receipt of the transaction, this, they were like, No, no,
Speaker 1: we can't do that. We can't do that. And we
Speaker 1: were like, so it's so strange because let me tell you,
Speaker 1: even some deals, right, can have the decency to draw
Speaker 1: out the receipt for me to show me that, OK,
Speaker 1: DVD is how much you make. This is a commission.
Speaker 1: Got it. OK, then we go home and settle finance.
Speaker 1: And then we were like, it's very strange why he
Speaker 1: die I don't want to draw out the sales check.
Speaker 1: And then after that, the day after, right, he told
Speaker 1: us,
Speaker 2: oh my God, he texted us, he texted us saying
Speaker 2: that like
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: I'm catching its
Speaker 1: scared.
Speaker 2: So the next day, OK, so context is that for
Speaker 2: every event, right, our commissions would be around like 4
Speaker 2: to 5 digits,
Speaker 1: 5 digits. Our events always do 5 digits in sales,
Speaker 1: always be
Speaker 2: humble a bit, OK.
Speaker 1: OK, OK, OK,
Speaker 2: so when we receive, ah, do you know how much
Speaker 2: the person put, so the person sent us a text,
Speaker 2: you be like, Oh, your total night Carlos, all the
Speaker 2: bottles and all the drinks is $4,339
Speaker 1: which is like 50% of what you would usually no,
Speaker 1: like 20%,
Speaker 2: it was a fully packed event, so it didn't make
Speaker 2: sense at all.
Speaker 1: Wait alcohol is so expensive, right? Let's be real. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, OK, if it's 4K, can you
Speaker 1: show me?
Speaker 1: The proof like
Speaker 2: one table alone right can be up to like 4
Speaker 2: or 5k. Like
Speaker 1: what on earth did they order? It's press a button,
Speaker 1: give me the transaction. If it's 4K, fine, whatever. I'll
Speaker 1: just take my commissions off of that. But he I
Speaker 1: don't want to show me, so I know he's playing
Speaker 1: this stupid ass game. And then I had to tell
Speaker 1: him like, uh, you cannot do this to us. OK.
Speaker 1: I was like, I can speak to your call my lawyer.
Speaker 1: Then you call.
Speaker 1: lie. We're so small.
Speaker 2: But then she called me and then I'm like, what
Speaker 2: to do, so we tried to like to like threatenen
Speaker 2: we will call the police. I wasn't gonna call the police,
Speaker 2: but I was like it was so tough because like
Speaker 2: we couldn't defend ourselves, you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 2: even if you wanted to, right, what lawyer fees over
Speaker 2: like the commission card is like not worth it if
Speaker 2: the lawyer is gonna be so expensive.
Speaker 1: Correct, correct, but after you go for the situation, if
Speaker 1: you win the case, they will pay for your loyal fees.
Speaker 1: If you win,
Speaker 2: we do not know that. But
Speaker 1: that's the thing, we were so small that we cannot
Speaker 1: even now to this day you still haven't got the money.
Speaker 1: So there's no resolution.
Speaker 2: I talked to the boss and then the boss was like, OK,
Speaker 2: if you're not happy with it, then you can proceed
Speaker 2: with like um what is it called filing a lawyer's letter,
Speaker 2: and then I was just like.
Speaker 2: Huh, then now what do I do? You know, I
Speaker 2: really tried to everything and then, OK, you want, you go.
Speaker 2: I'm like, where do I go now have the money
Speaker 2: to drag it out, you know, 10,
Speaker 1: 200 is a lot to a small company. If I
Speaker 1: was in your position, wouldn't you use your position as
Speaker 1: influencers and as people to do that and be like,
Speaker 1: you know, look, we've been scammed. Did you guys think
Speaker 1: of that? We didn't, but we don't want to portray
Speaker 1: us as influencers that will wear the dirty laundries of
Speaker 1: like our.
Speaker 2: It will link back to our brand as a whole.
Speaker 2: Like if any new brand will be like, I work
Speaker 2: then they don't like me then I'll make no it's
Speaker 2: a very bad look for us.
Speaker 1: Honestly, the netizens and people already think that if we
Speaker 1: have any sort of influence online like, oh, so you
Speaker 1: know you only get this kind of treatment because you're
Speaker 1: like that of course you and people like attend to you.
Speaker 1: I get what you mean. And also
Speaker 2: because like can you imagine how crazy it sound that
Speaker 2: we say that like oh we didn't get this part
Speaker 2: of money and it's like not small money, a lot
Speaker 2: of money.
Speaker 2: like, hey, I didn't get like 5 digit commission. Like
Speaker 2: they're going to be like, What the hell, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, wouldn't like
Speaker 1: it's a tough it's a tough situation to be in,
Speaker 1: but like, I don't know if there are any lawyers
Speaker 1: tuning in right now, please advise them what to do
Speaker 1: because it's never too late to turn it around. Do
Speaker 1: you still want to pursue this situation? The guy got fired,
Speaker 1: by the way. Yeah, that's the thing. It's been so long.
Speaker 1: How long has it been? 1 year?
Speaker 2: 1.5 years I
Speaker 1: think.
Speaker 1: It's too long to reopen. OK. A grudge can be
Speaker 1: held forever. Do you think that.
Speaker 1: That kind of like set you back and you were like,
Speaker 1: oh this is such a terrible situation like we're going
Speaker 1: to give up or like you know you were so angry,
Speaker 2: let's make more money.
Speaker 1: Don't go
Speaker 1: down without a fight, my friends. Guys, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: That was so much fun. OK, before you leave though,
Speaker 1: since I'm sure a lot of other young entrepreneurs or
Speaker 1: aspiring entrepreneurs look up to you and other Gen Z entrepreneurs,
Speaker 1: what do you have to say to them?
Speaker 2: Actually, just do it. Like don't don't have to think
Speaker 2: that like you must like have like a large amount
Speaker 2: of capital.
Speaker 2: Because actually, right, you can work around it. First of all,
Speaker 2: like you start a party, right, you can collect the
Speaker 2: money first, you know what I mean? You sell the
Speaker 2: tickets first, collect the money, then we use it to
Speaker 2: cover the cost of the rental, and then we just
Speaker 2: tell the vendor, Hey, maybe I pay you after the event,
Speaker 2: you know, like there's always ways to like, you don't
Speaker 2: need to like fork out so much money at the start.
Speaker 2: So don't be afraid by that. Just try because you
Speaker 2: never know where it will go. If you fail, right,
Speaker 2: I always tell myself I'm so young, at least I
Speaker 2: try because if I'm older, right, I have no time
Speaker 2: to try this kind of thing. So just try YOLO, man,
Speaker 2: do it.
Speaker 1: I also a lot of.
Speaker 1: They are launching a new product, right? It's before you
Speaker 1: even actually launch it and sell it on whatever store
Speaker 1: you're selling on. You can already do the marketing, like
Speaker 1: make content about it, see if you actually have a
Speaker 1: crowd for it. Once you feel like, OK, you have
Speaker 1: the crowd for it, you have like 1000 followers or
Speaker 1: 500 followers, people are ready to buy your product and
Speaker 1: receive it, then you sell it, right? The win is
Speaker 1: more guaranteed that way, yeah, or you can do pre-order,
Speaker 1: so there's a few ways to go about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I also feel like, especially when you're young, right,
Speaker 1: just do it. You have nothing to lose.
Speaker 1: everything to gain. That's why I always tell myself. Like
Speaker 1: I don't have a family. I might not be able
Speaker 1: to have this freedom when I'm in my 30s, when
Speaker 1: I'm a responsibility. So just do it. You're gonna learn
Speaker 1: so much about yourself and it'll be so fun and
Speaker 1: be consistent. Don't just give up. Don't give
Speaker 1: up.
Speaker 2: It's gonna get tough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are some days where you ask yourself, why
Speaker 1: the hell you start your company? Like me every day
Speaker 1: when I walk into my office and I ask myself
Speaker 1: why I have this overhead, so expensive and my blacklet
Speaker 1: chair that I love so much. OK,
Speaker 1: and the
Speaker 1: $80 water dispenser.
Speaker 1: That I love so much. I love so much, OK.
Speaker 1: We're gonna get there someday because we are still getting there. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you guys so much for being here with us
Speaker 1: today on another episode of Men Explained. And if you're
Speaker 1: watching at home, thank you as well. Please make sure
Speaker 1: to follow us on all our socials on Instagram, TikTok
Speaker 1: and on YouTube as well at itsclarity.co. That's right. If
Speaker 1: you're tuning into us from wherever it is and listening
Speaker 1: to us, yap and be super unhinged. That's Apple Podcast, Spotify,
Speaker 1: and me listen. So we'll catch you again next time.
Speaker 1: Bye