1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,299 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:02,950 --> 00:00:06,190 Speaker 1: So, hey guys, it's Stephen here. A quick announcement. Before 3 00:00:06,199 --> 00:00:09,689 Speaker 1: you listen to this episode, we recorded the podcast on 4 00:00:09,699 --> 00:00:14,159 Speaker 1: Wednesday evening and a day later on Thursday, senior Minister 5 00:00:14,170 --> 00:00:17,770 Speaker 1: Taman Channa announced that he will run as a candidate 6 00:00:17,780 --> 00:00:22,110 Speaker 1: in the upcoming presidential elections. Now, had we known we 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,309 Speaker 1: would have recorded the podcast a day later, but it's 8 00:00:25,319 --> 00:00:28,250 Speaker 1: still a great conversation because we cover many of the 9 00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:31,739 Speaker 1: questions we've all been asking. Take a listen 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,229 Speaker 1: in a matter of about just three months. Singapore will 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: be caught up in the excitement of an election. The 12 00:00:42,049 --> 00:00:46,830 Speaker 1: Singapore presidential election, Madam Halima, the first Malay Muslim president 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,259 Speaker 1: and female president is completing her six year term and 14 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:53,150 Speaker 1: she has said that she will not be running again. 15 00:00:53,319 --> 00:00:57,110 Speaker 1: But at the last election in 2017, voting was not 16 00:00:57,119 --> 00:01:00,869 Speaker 1: needed as she was deemed the only qualified candidate. So 17 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,930 Speaker 1: this time around many are hoping for a chance to 18 00:01:03,939 --> 00:01:04,129 Speaker 1: hit 19 00:01:04,199 --> 00:01:07,330 Speaker 1: to the ballot box. Unless of course, there's only one 20 00:01:07,339 --> 00:01:10,660 Speaker 1: candidate again. Then it's a walkover today, we're going to 21 00:01:10,669 --> 00:01:15,209 Speaker 1: deep dive into Singapore's presidential elections with questions such as 22 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:19,709 Speaker 1: is the president purely symbolic. Do they actually have any powers? 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,518 Speaker 1: Does it really matter in the bigger scheme of things? 24 00:01:22,529 --> 00:01:25,970 Speaker 1: And what about candidates? Why such strict criteria for those 25 00:01:25,980 --> 00:01:29,179 Speaker 1: who run and as a Singaporean? How should I decide 26 00:01:29,190 --> 00:01:31,899 Speaker 1: who to vote for? What are the things that matter 27 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:32,750 Speaker 1: to us today 28 00:01:34,190 --> 00:01:37,900 Speaker 1: with me to discuss? This are Eugene Tan, associate professor 29 00:01:37,910 --> 00:01:41,169 Speaker 1: of law from Singapore Management University. Hello, good to be here, 30 00:01:41,180 --> 00:01:45,569 Speaker 1: Dr Felix Tan, associate lecturer from Nanyang Technological University. Hi, 31 00:01:45,580 --> 00:01:48,279 Speaker 1: good to be here too. Andrian, a 28 year old 32 00:01:48,290 --> 00:01:52,279 Speaker 1: business analyst and a young voter. Thanks for having me here. 33 00:01:52,290 --> 00:01:55,069 Speaker 1: Welcome guys. So, Felix and Eugene, I'm going to start 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,279 Speaker 1: with you guys because you're the academics and give us 35 00:01:57,290 --> 00:01:58,819 Speaker 1: the 32nd version 36 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,330 Speaker 1: of why we need to vote for a president in Singapore. Eugene, 37 00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:07,669 Speaker 1: it's the process of giving the elected president a mandate 38 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:08,369 Speaker 1: because 39 00:02:08,750 --> 00:02:13,220 Speaker 1: the president exercises custodial powers to check the government on 40 00:02:13,229 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: key matters such as the use of National Reserves and 41 00:02:16,410 --> 00:02:20,380 Speaker 1: key public sector appointments. And so the sense was that 42 00:02:20,559 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: the only way to give the office that legitimacy to 43 00:02:24,330 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: enable the president to be able to stand up against 44 00:02:26,529 --> 00:02:30,479 Speaker 1: the parliamentary government which is also elected. The designers have 45 00:02:30,490 --> 00:02:33,460 Speaker 1: decided that an elected president would be a way 46 00:02:33,555 --> 00:02:38,386 Speaker 1: of giving that authority, that legitimacy. Felix, what do you 47 00:02:38,395 --> 00:02:42,126 Speaker 2: think it's important to have this election because the president 48 00:02:42,136 --> 00:02:45,584 Speaker 2: is seen as a neutral party in the sense that 49 00:02:45,595 --> 00:02:48,156 Speaker 2: we have the government of the day and that might 50 00:02:48,166 --> 00:02:50,945 Speaker 2: shift and that might change. And the president would be 51 00:02:50,966 --> 00:02:54,945 Speaker 2: something that stands from the outside looking in and also 52 00:02:54,955 --> 00:02:58,246 Speaker 2: be a check and balance of some sorts to 53 00:02:58,361 --> 00:03:01,292 Speaker 2: whichever the government might be as well. So it's important 54 00:03:01,302 --> 00:03:03,222 Speaker 2: to note who we are voting in if we have 55 00:03:03,231 --> 00:03:03,242 Speaker 2: a 56 00:03:03,251 --> 00:03:05,681 Speaker 1: chance, right? And in that sense, they also then have 57 00:03:05,692 --> 00:03:08,712 Speaker 1: the mandate of the people in the, in the early years, 58 00:03:08,722 --> 00:03:11,061 Speaker 1: we used to just select someone the government would look 59 00:03:11,072 --> 00:03:12,731 Speaker 1: through and say, hey, this person is a great fit, 60 00:03:12,742 --> 00:03:15,251 Speaker 1: got all the right credentials and then appoint them. We've 61 00:03:15,261 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: done that before and it kind of worked. Did it 62 00:03:17,852 --> 00:03:20,242 Speaker 1: not well, it did, but we must bear in mind 63 00:03:20,251 --> 00:03:23,111 Speaker 1: that in 1991 when the constitution was amended, 64 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:28,110 Speaker 1: the idea was to then give the elected president custodial powers. 65 00:03:28,119 --> 00:03:31,570 Speaker 1: So prior to that he or she primary had ceremonial powers, 66 00:03:31,580 --> 00:03:35,250 Speaker 1: community roles and very limited constitutional powers, you know, such 67 00:03:35,259 --> 00:03:37,529 Speaker 1: as inviting the leader of the party that wins the 68 00:03:37,539 --> 00:03:38,470 Speaker 1: most seats to form 69 00:03:38,559 --> 00:03:41,389 Speaker 1: from the government and be the prime minister come to 70 00:03:41,399 --> 00:03:44,089 Speaker 1: the late eighties. When we went through a significant period 71 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:47,809 Speaker 1: of constitutional engineering. The thinking was that we needed to 72 00:03:47,820 --> 00:03:53,669 Speaker 1: protect Singapore's government. I think the concern was a rogue government. 73 00:03:53,990 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: And so the idea was let's have another check and balance. 74 00:03:57,009 --> 00:04:00,789 Speaker 1: And so they conceive of this elected president as an 75 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: intra branch check, right. So it's within the executive branch 76 00:04:04,809 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: but with very limited powers. But certainly the sense was 77 00:04:08,449 --> 00:04:08,820 Speaker 1: that 78 00:04:09,070 --> 00:04:11,279 Speaker 1: these powers are necessary if we are to ensure that 79 00:04:11,289 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: Singapore continues to thrive. So, have you ever voted in 80 00:04:16,049 --> 00:04:18,510 Speaker 1: the presidential election? I'm not, I'm still young enough to 81 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:22,428 Speaker 1: say I have not voted for any. I'm trying to 82 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,058 Speaker 1: think about, am I young enough? Have I, 83 00:04:24,488 --> 00:04:28,229 Speaker 1: I mean, the previous round was still a walkover at 84 00:04:28,238 --> 00:04:31,989 Speaker 1: that time. I only stood for candidacy. I was looking 85 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,450 Speaker 1: forward to voting. But how did you feel about that? 86 00:04:34,459 --> 00:04:36,299 Speaker 1: The fact that you didn't get to vote as many 87 00:04:36,309 --> 00:04:39,339 Speaker 1: would have felt the walkover was maybe, didn't give him 88 00:04:39,350 --> 00:04:42,268 Speaker 1: a chance to stand out and talk about her perspectives 89 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,029 Speaker 1: about why she thinks she might be a good candidate 90 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: compared to other candidates. I mean, that felt like maybe 91 00:04:48,290 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 1: she didn't manage to capture my imagination at the start. 92 00:04:51,869 --> 00:04:54,979 Speaker 1: But what are you now looking for in your next 93 00:04:54,988 --> 00:04:58,290 Speaker 1: president compared to past presidents? The first thing I would 94 00:04:58,299 --> 00:05:01,570 Speaker 1: think of would be someone who would be more proactive 95 00:05:01,579 --> 00:05:05,500 Speaker 1: as opposed to past presidents. Someone who will proactively maybe 96 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:07,730 Speaker 1: reach out to the government to ask them what's going on? 97 00:05:07,738 --> 00:05:11,409 Speaker 1: How is everything doing? Whether our reserves are actually solid 98 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:15,380 Speaker 1: enough right now or making sure that our political appointment 99 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 1: holders are vetted 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,649 Speaker 1: as opposed to just being a stamp, rubber stamping? Wow, 101 00:05:21,660 --> 00:05:24,399 Speaker 1: this could be interesting because you sort of poking their 102 00:05:24,410 --> 00:05:26,659 Speaker 1: finger in the pie being a bit of a, as 103 00:05:26,670 --> 00:05:29,170 Speaker 1: we might call it here. I mean, we can't call it. 104 00:05:29,350 --> 00:05:30,850 Speaker 1: We have to call it a person who is taking 105 00:05:30,859 --> 00:05:33,649 Speaker 1: a more leadership role in making sure the you want 106 00:05:33,660 --> 00:05:36,380 Speaker 1: them to be asking questions about things to be probing 107 00:05:36,390 --> 00:05:39,429 Speaker 1: a bit further. Let's not combine it with. I mean, 108 00:05:40,269 --> 00:05:42,549 Speaker 1: this is a good, good kind of not the bad 109 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:44,010 Speaker 1: kind of OK. I see. 110 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,940 Speaker 1: So Eugene Felix, you hear red one saying this, what 111 00:05:46,950 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: do you make of that? This is what the younger 112 00:05:48,049 --> 00:05:51,130 Speaker 2: generation, I think it's very important for the president to 113 00:05:51,140 --> 00:05:54,619 Speaker 2: connect with Singaporeans by and large. And I think as 114 00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:57,519 Speaker 2: we can see from Madam Halima approach in the last 115 00:05:57,529 --> 00:06:00,230 Speaker 2: six years, she managed to reach out to the people 116 00:06:00,238 --> 00:06:00,349 Speaker 2: and 117 00:06:00,434 --> 00:06:02,714 Speaker 2: speak on behalf of Singaporeans. And I think that's very 118 00:06:02,725 --> 00:06:05,545 Speaker 2: important for myself at the very least. I think as 119 00:06:05,553 --> 00:06:08,635 Speaker 2: a another was another person who actually spoke for the 120 00:06:08,644 --> 00:06:10,825 Speaker 2: people and I think he has done a great job 121 00:06:10,834 --> 00:06:14,524 Speaker 2: as well connecting, that's very important. Whoever is going to 122 00:06:14,535 --> 00:06:16,505 Speaker 2: run in the next election, 123 00:06:16,730 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 2: they need to have that touch and that human touch. 124 00:06:19,809 --> 00:06:22,950 Speaker 2: And I think madam Halima has really pushed that thing 125 00:06:22,959 --> 00:06:24,230 Speaker 2: about human touch. 126 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,100 Speaker 1: But what is saying sounds a bit more than just 127 00:06:27,109 --> 00:06:30,100 Speaker 1: connecting with people and being a nice person so to speak, 128 00:06:30,109 --> 00:06:32,118 Speaker 1: you know, that I can take photos with visit the 129 00:06:32,410 --> 00:06:35,019 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. He's asking for more powers where 130 00:06:35,029 --> 00:06:37,660 Speaker 1: that person can be more of a check and balance 131 00:06:37,678 --> 00:06:38,140 Speaker 1: in that sense, 132 00:06:38,404 --> 00:06:40,975 Speaker 1: more powers just being more proactive. Yeah, but when you 133 00:06:40,984 --> 00:06:43,875 Speaker 1: say proactive is asking instead of just rubber stamp it, 134 00:06:43,885 --> 00:06:47,945 Speaker 1: you're asking questions about things that are happening, right? So 135 00:06:47,954 --> 00:06:49,453 Speaker 1: in a way that's a bit more of a check 136 00:06:49,464 --> 00:06:51,904 Speaker 2: and balance. Yeah, I think what the president will probably 137 00:06:51,915 --> 00:06:54,303 Speaker 2: need to do moving forward, not so much of being 138 00:06:54,315 --> 00:06:57,394 Speaker 2: proactive but also acting as someone that can question the 139 00:06:57,404 --> 00:07:00,904 Speaker 2: government if they feel that there's something that is perhaps 140 00:07:00,915 --> 00:07:04,094 Speaker 2: moving in a different direction, in the wrong direction and 141 00:07:04,105 --> 00:07:07,553 Speaker 2: don't be daring enough to ask and probe that question 142 00:07:07,829 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 2: so far. We haven't seen one that is able to 143 00:07:10,130 --> 00:07:12,899 Speaker 2: do that. And if we take into consideration, perhaps Mr 144 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:14,769 Speaker 2: has done that. The 145 00:07:14,779 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: difficulty of course is that the sentiments are well reflected 146 00:07:17,690 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: on the ground. 147 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,950 Speaker 1: The challenge is that the elected presidency is quite an 148 00:07:21,959 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: unusual institution, it is properly elected, but it is not 149 00:07:26,329 --> 00:07:30,609 Speaker 1: intended to be, you know, alternative center of power. The 150 00:07:30,619 --> 00:07:34,070 Speaker 1: president doesn't set any policies. If anything, you know, the 151 00:07:34,079 --> 00:07:37,510 Speaker 1: custodial powers are very reactionary, help us clarify, help our 152 00:07:37,519 --> 00:07:38,510 Speaker 1: listeners understand. So 153 00:07:38,605 --> 00:07:41,144 Speaker 1: actually, what are the powers? Well, the powers are for 154 00:07:41,154 --> 00:07:43,795 Speaker 1: certain key appointments in the public sector, like the chief 155 00:07:43,804 --> 00:07:47,625 Speaker 1: justice judges of the Supreme Court, the Chief of Defense Force, 156 00:07:47,635 --> 00:07:52,494 Speaker 1: Permanent Secretaries, these appointments are put forth by the government, 157 00:07:52,505 --> 00:07:55,684 Speaker 1: the cabinet and the president has to sign off on 158 00:07:55,695 --> 00:07:58,885 Speaker 1: them in order for those appointments to take effect so 159 00:07:58,894 --> 00:08:02,714 Speaker 1: the president can choose to not sign off on a 160 00:08:02,725 --> 00:08:05,875 Speaker 1: particular nomination for a key public sector appointment. 161 00:08:06,140 --> 00:08:09,809 Speaker 1: The other key custodial power relates to the use of 162 00:08:09,959 --> 00:08:14,049 Speaker 1: our national reserves. Close to 100 billion was approved for 163 00:08:14,059 --> 00:08:16,739 Speaker 1: the pandemic over the last three years. And the sense 164 00:08:16,750 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: was that if we don't protect our national reserves, if 165 00:08:19,489 --> 00:08:22,049 Speaker 1: we don't protect the public sector appointments, 166 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,839 Speaker 1: then you might lead to a crony government, it might 167 00:08:24,850 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: lead to government being very. And so the sense was 168 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:31,220 Speaker 1: that we need to protect these things that have served 169 00:08:31,230 --> 00:08:34,260 Speaker 1: us well. And so so long as the government puts 170 00:08:34,270 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: forth individuals that the president deems to be suitably qualified 171 00:08:38,530 --> 00:08:41,460 Speaker 1: for the job, the Reserves are used when there's a 172 00:08:41,469 --> 00:08:43,469 Speaker 1: very strong justification, 173 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:46,469 Speaker 1: the president doesn't really get in the way. But I 174 00:08:46,479 --> 00:08:48,618 Speaker 1: suppose there's that shout of mystery as to what the 175 00:08:48,630 --> 00:08:51,059 Speaker 1: president does because even if he or she were to 176 00:08:51,070 --> 00:08:54,449 Speaker 1: be very proactive in raising very probing questions, these are 177 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:56,809 Speaker 1: not played out in the public. And so there is 178 00:08:56,820 --> 00:08:58,859 Speaker 1: a sense that the president is really more like a 179 00:08:58,869 --> 00:09:01,690 Speaker 1: rubber stamp, you know, when in actual effect, the president 180 00:09:01,700 --> 00:09:04,609 Speaker 1: does make very weighty decisions and to be fair when 181 00:09:04,619 --> 00:09:07,250 Speaker 1: these people are nominated for these very senior positions, 182 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,159 Speaker 1: normally they are all very credible already to be convinced 183 00:09:10,169 --> 00:09:13,900 Speaker 1: any board nominating someone to be the new chairman or something. 184 00:09:14,090 --> 00:09:17,150 Speaker 1: But there is some people feel like it is just 185 00:09:17,159 --> 00:09:20,239 Speaker 1: rubber stamp because of that because they never say no, 186 00:09:20,289 --> 00:09:23,070 Speaker 1: the president never rejected or refused. In that sense, we 187 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: never know. And, and, and, and again, right, it could 188 00:09:25,409 --> 00:09:27,489 Speaker 1: also be the case, you know that the government knowing 189 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:31,429 Speaker 1: that there's someone who is overseeing the appointments, overseeing 190 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:35,390 Speaker 1: the use of past reserves would then be more careful. 191 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,130 Speaker 1: So imagine in the previous system, when there was no 192 00:09:38,140 --> 00:09:41,409 Speaker 1: second key as the president is popularly known as right 193 00:09:41,419 --> 00:09:44,809 Speaker 1: to unlock the reserves to put into effect a particular appointment, 194 00:09:45,030 --> 00:09:46,830 Speaker 1: the government today would have its way. So if they 195 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,150 Speaker 1: want to appoint a crony or, or someone who's not qualified, 196 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:51,869 Speaker 1: they would be able to do so. But now we 197 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,989 Speaker 1: have the president who is also supported by the Council 198 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,630 Speaker 1: of Presidential advisor, you know, who would give their recommendations 199 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:58,210 Speaker 1: as well 200 00:09:58,539 --> 00:10:01,190 Speaker 1: that makes the whole appointment and the use of past 201 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,299 Speaker 1: reserves a much more robust process. If I could put 202 00:10:04,309 --> 00:10:06,530 Speaker 1: it this way, it's not a one way street because 203 00:10:06,539 --> 00:10:09,469 Speaker 1: the elected president could act as a speed bump in 204 00:10:09,479 --> 00:10:12,579 Speaker 1: the event where the president and the council thinks that 205 00:10:12,590 --> 00:10:15,500 Speaker 1: things are not going quite the way they should. May 206 00:10:15,510 --> 00:10:17,369 Speaker 1: I also ask for clarification 207 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:21,380 Speaker 1: even if the president has consulted their respective council of 208 00:10:21,390 --> 00:10:24,979 Speaker 1: Presidential advisor and come to the conclusion that it's actually 209 00:10:24,989 --> 00:10:28,250 Speaker 1: opposite of the governments isn't the government able to also 210 00:10:28,309 --> 00:10:31,799 Speaker 1: override a veto against the president's decision. Yes, I think 211 00:10:31,809 --> 00:10:34,229 Speaker 1: that's a very good point. If you have a situation 212 00:10:34,239 --> 00:10:38,229 Speaker 1: where both the Council and the President are of the 213 00:10:38,239 --> 00:10:40,390 Speaker 1: same view, you know, say person a should not be 214 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: appointed as a judge of the Supreme Court, then there 215 00:10:43,210 --> 00:10:43,989 Speaker 1: is no way 216 00:10:44,369 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: the government can override that where the government through parliament 217 00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: can override a veto of the president is where the 218 00:10:52,409 --> 00:10:57,289 Speaker 1: president's decision is not aligned with that of the Council 219 00:10:57,299 --> 00:11:01,830 Speaker 1: of Presidential advisor. Even then parliament needs to secure a 220 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,799 Speaker 1: two thirds majority. So there are these big bumps and 221 00:11:05,809 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: the reason why they say that, you know, people question 222 00:11:08,450 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: why you have the override mechanism 223 00:11:10,770 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: because ultimately right, our system of government is a parliamentary 224 00:11:14,650 --> 00:11:18,460 Speaker 1: system of government. The elected government of the day makes policies, 225 00:11:18,469 --> 00:11:21,780 Speaker 1: implements them and is held accountable. In that sense, the 226 00:11:21,789 --> 00:11:25,039 Speaker 1: designers have decided that it cannot be a complete override. 227 00:11:25,049 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: The veto cannot be complete. And that in certain circumstances, 228 00:11:28,450 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: there can be that override by parliament where 229 00:11:31,179 --> 00:11:34,590 Speaker 1: the president's use of his or her discretion. Power differs 230 00:11:34,599 --> 00:11:37,549 Speaker 1: from that of recommended by the council of Presidential advisor 231 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,859 Speaker 1: and you have a two thirds majority that supports the 232 00:11:40,869 --> 00:11:43,608 Speaker 1: overriding of the presidential veto. And I think at the 233 00:11:43,619 --> 00:11:46,919 Speaker 1: very least, what that does is it brings to light 234 00:11:46,929 --> 00:11:51,030 Speaker 1: whatever situation and puts a lot of questions people will 235 00:11:51,039 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: be asking why because very often if you want to, in, 236 00:11:53,849 --> 00:11:55,330 Speaker 1: in some countries, we see you want to pass a 237 00:11:55,340 --> 00:11:56,650 Speaker 1: law quickly, just do it real quick, 238 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,849 Speaker 1: quick and dirty, so to speak and then it's gone 239 00:11:58,859 --> 00:12:01,830 Speaker 1: and it's forgotten. Right. Whereas if you have these speed bumps, 240 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: you're forced to slow down, to look at it again 241 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:06,530 Speaker 1: and to ask why, that's an excellent point. The point 242 00:12:06,539 --> 00:12:08,848 Speaker 1: here is that if the government of day decides to 243 00:12:08,859 --> 00:12:12,969 Speaker 1: override the president, they have to take it to parliament, right? 244 00:12:12,979 --> 00:12:17,849 Speaker 1: And so the difference between the president and the government 245 00:12:17,859 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: will be in the public, the government will have to 246 00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:24,090 Speaker 1: be able to justify why it seeks to override the 247 00:12:24,099 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: presidential veto. 248 00:12:25,619 --> 00:12:27,099 Speaker 1: And I think that's what we want, right? That's what 249 00:12:27,109 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: you would like. I mean, listening to more of these 250 00:12:29,409 --> 00:12:32,130 Speaker 1: active debates and listening to someone who might 251 00:12:32,409 --> 00:12:35,119 Speaker 1: actually challenge the government's perspective, not for the sake of it. 252 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:37,069 Speaker 1: I mean, we all still want stability at the end 253 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,969 Speaker 1: of the day. But the point is we want to 254 00:12:38,979 --> 00:12:41,409 Speaker 1: have flexibility in our system such that we can always 255 00:12:41,419 --> 00:12:43,669 Speaker 1: accommodate differing views. Some 256 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,738 Speaker 2: of us at least view that the president is seen 257 00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:50,950 Speaker 2: to be antagonistic to the government and say, oh because 258 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,309 Speaker 2: she or he is so quiet. Therefore, the president is 259 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,809 Speaker 2: just a rubber stamer. That's a problem there because the 260 00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: president does not necessarily have to be antagonist. 261 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,179 Speaker 2: If that is the expectation from the public, then I 262 00:13:02,190 --> 00:13:04,500 Speaker 2: think there's a misunderstanding of the role of what the 263 00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:06,718 Speaker 2: president is supposed to do. The other thing is that 264 00:13:06,729 --> 00:13:09,228 Speaker 2: perhaps there were discussion, we don't see that sort of 265 00:13:09,239 --> 00:13:12,968 Speaker 2: discussion in public and the government could have jolly well 266 00:13:12,979 --> 00:13:16,500 Speaker 2: spoken to the president with the advisors, which you have 267 00:13:16,510 --> 00:13:18,739 Speaker 2: known what I have known. We would have not known 268 00:13:18,750 --> 00:13:21,368 Speaker 2: and really do. We need to know what's behind the 269 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:25,390 Speaker 2: scene are the issues that important. Must every issue be 270 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,010 Speaker 2: washed in public. 271 00:13:27,270 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: We, we're still very Asian that way, right? I mean, 272 00:13:29,719 --> 00:13:31,890 Speaker 1: you know, we do it behind closed doors. But sometimes 273 00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,489 Speaker 1: people want to feel like there was that debate, that 274 00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:37,780 Speaker 1: conversation really took place because as you mentioned, we don't know, 275 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:40,809 Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't and sometimes it doesn't. So we don't know. 276 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:41,858 Speaker 1: And that's the concern. 277 00:13:45,479 --> 00:13:47,530 Speaker 1: There was a time in the middle of last year 278 00:13:47,539 --> 00:13:49,989 Speaker 1: when it seemed that the China we are familiar with 279 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,289 Speaker 1: was a completely different place when the rest of the 280 00:13:53,299 --> 00:13:57,289 Speaker 1: world moved on from the COVID-19 pandemic. As many as 281 00:13:57,299 --> 00:14:01,159 Speaker 1: if 300 million Chinese people were under some form of 282 00:14:01,169 --> 00:14:02,590 Speaker 1: a mandatory lockdown. 283 00:14:06,890 --> 00:14:09,330 Speaker 1: There were only two things on my mind to find 284 00:14:09,340 --> 00:14:11,459 Speaker 1: food and to not go crazy. 285 00:14:12,599 --> 00:14:16,419 Speaker 1: Then suddenly the people decided to take things into their 286 00:14:16,429 --> 00:14:17,488 Speaker 1: own hands. 287 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:23,099 Speaker 1: For the first time in more than 30 years, protests 288 00:14:23,109 --> 00:14:27,919 Speaker 1: swept through China and just like that cove ended, 289 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,190 Speaker 1: join me, we do for a look back at the 290 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,940 Speaker 1: extraordinary year in China and hear how it might have 291 00:14:35,950 --> 00:14:38,510 Speaker 1: changed the country for good 292 00:14:39,659 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 1: Red Wall inside China's Zero COVID World A two part 293 00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:48,090 Speaker 1: podcast series by CN A. It's available now on the 294 00:14:48,099 --> 00:14:52,419 Speaker 1: CN A and me listen apps, Spotify, Apple and Google 295 00:14:52,429 --> 00:14:53,210 Speaker 1: podcasts 296 00:14:54,809 --> 00:14:57,299 Speaker 1: that also puts into light the question of who should 297 00:14:57,309 --> 00:15:00,539 Speaker 1: be in this position. The criteria we have for selecting 298 00:15:00,549 --> 00:15:03,669 Speaker 1: the president this time around is really open to pretty 299 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:06,940 Speaker 1: much anyone. There is no racial quota in that sense. 300 00:15:06,950 --> 00:15:07,700 Speaker 1: You know, so 301 00:15:08,119 --> 00:15:11,799 Speaker 1: is the criteria we have effective, does it really help 302 00:15:11,809 --> 00:15:15,929 Speaker 1: us find the best person? Well, the criteria is certainly demanding, 303 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:19,059 Speaker 1: you can qualify through two tracks, right? The public sector 304 00:15:19,070 --> 00:15:21,570 Speaker 1: track or the private sector track. So if you had 305 00:15:21,580 --> 00:15:24,700 Speaker 1: held certain office in the public sector for three years, 306 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,979 Speaker 1: you would be regarded to have met the criteria if 307 00:15:27,989 --> 00:15:30,010 Speaker 1: you come from the public sector, you know, you must 308 00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:33,609 Speaker 1: have let a company, you know, with a shareholder equity 309 00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: of at least $500 million and a few other indicators, 310 00:15:38,969 --> 00:15:41,679 Speaker 1: you know, such as profitability for the last couple of years, 311 00:15:41,950 --> 00:15:45,210 Speaker 1: the criteria is certainly onerous, right. And of course, people 312 00:15:45,219 --> 00:15:46,010 Speaker 1: do wonder 313 00:15:46,239 --> 00:15:50,710 Speaker 1: are these onerous criteria really necessary, right? Because we don't 314 00:15:50,719 --> 00:15:53,650 Speaker 1: see that of the US president or the French president. 315 00:15:53,719 --> 00:15:56,609 Speaker 1: But if we go back to institutional design, the designers 316 00:15:56,619 --> 00:16:00,369 Speaker 1: have decided that because these are weighty decisions. Um you know, 317 00:16:00,380 --> 00:16:01,349 Speaker 1: the president is 318 00:16:01,770 --> 00:16:04,679 Speaker 1: in a nonpartisan role. And so it needs to make 319 00:16:04,690 --> 00:16:08,150 Speaker 1: decisions based on his or her experience and expertise as 320 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:10,210 Speaker 1: to whether someone can do the job in terms of 321 00:16:10,219 --> 00:16:12,580 Speaker 1: a key public sector appointment or whether the Reserve should 322 00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:14,820 Speaker 1: be drawn down. It is fair to say that people 323 00:16:14,830 --> 00:16:17,390 Speaker 1: will differ as to whether you need such criteria and 324 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,919 Speaker 1: some people take the view that let the voter decide. 325 00:16:19,929 --> 00:16:22,729 Speaker 1: Um It's a fair question, it goes down to institutional 326 00:16:22,739 --> 00:16:25,210 Speaker 1: design and the government of the day is the main 327 00:16:25,219 --> 00:16:25,900 Speaker 1: institutional 328 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,770 Speaker 1: designer, you know, has decided that we need this criteria 329 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:32,799 Speaker 1: because even ambassadors don't qualify. But yet they said that ministers, 330 00:16:32,809 --> 00:16:35,919 Speaker 1: chief justice, the attorney general, a permanent secretary, they would 331 00:16:35,929 --> 00:16:38,210 Speaker 1: qualify actually, are they kind of more or less in 332 00:16:38,219 --> 00:16:40,809 Speaker 1: the same rank? Unless you look at the numbers, the 333 00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:44,169 Speaker 1: economic value, the kind of manpower and things like that. 334 00:16:44,179 --> 00:16:46,250 Speaker 1: But what if we had a really good guy who 335 00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:50,010 Speaker 1: was retired? I don't know, would he qualify? 336 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: Um He could depending on how current in the sense that, 337 00:16:55,090 --> 00:16:57,049 Speaker 1: you know, how long was it since he left a 338 00:16:57,059 --> 00:16:59,750 Speaker 1: public sector appointment or when do you stop leading a 339 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:00,780 Speaker 1: big company? I 340 00:17:00,789 --> 00:17:02,950 Speaker 2: just want to go and add is that, you know, 341 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 2: we are looking at the highest level in our state, 342 00:17:07,170 --> 00:17:09,089 Speaker 2: in the bureaucracy, at the very least, you know, in 343 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:12,089 Speaker 2: the government and he or she becomes a president is 344 00:17:12,099 --> 00:17:12,698 Speaker 2: overlooking 345 00:17:12,805 --> 00:17:16,204 Speaker 2: at our reserves. I think it's very important that the 346 00:17:16,214 --> 00:17:20,535 Speaker 2: criteria are very stringent. It will be challenging for somebody 347 00:17:20,545 --> 00:17:24,214 Speaker 2: who might not have the experience to oversee our reserve 348 00:17:24,224 --> 00:17:26,444 Speaker 2: and what happens if they don't know what to do? 349 00:17:26,454 --> 00:17:26,805 Speaker 2: One would 350 00:17:26,814 --> 00:17:29,474 Speaker 1: argue that actually I'm just thinking out loud that our 351 00:17:29,484 --> 00:17:33,114 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, for example, should have that criteria as well. 352 00:17:33,125 --> 00:17:34,694 Speaker 1: Whereas now they have voted 353 00:17:34,949 --> 00:17:38,010 Speaker 1: into that position by their party members. Excellent point. I mean, 354 00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:40,550 Speaker 1: certainly many people have drawn this analogy. You know, it's 355 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: a point that I also raised in 2016, you know, 356 00:17:43,369 --> 00:17:46,030 Speaker 1: before the Constitutional Commission, when they were trying to look 357 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,719 Speaker 1: at how to improve the design of the elected presidency. 358 00:17:49,930 --> 00:17:53,969 Speaker 1: The view is that the Prime Minister is a political actor, 359 00:17:54,479 --> 00:17:57,839 Speaker 1: makes policies and have to win the people on those policies. 360 00:17:57,849 --> 00:17:58,459 Speaker 1: And so 361 00:17:58,739 --> 00:18:03,389 Speaker 1: putting owners criteria would also mean that you dramatically reduce 362 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,569 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister is running the country, the president in 363 00:18:05,579 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: a way isn't really running the country, right. Fair point, right. 364 00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:14,010 Speaker 1: But the view is that the president as a nonpartisan institution, 365 00:18:14,439 --> 00:18:19,089 Speaker 1: you would need to enable that nonpartisan individual, the office, 366 00:18:19,099 --> 00:18:20,310 Speaker 1: you know, to be able to 367 00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: make this sort of decision on the basis of expertise 368 00:18:23,890 --> 00:18:27,180 Speaker 1: and experience. Another set of institutional designers may have designed 369 00:18:27,189 --> 00:18:29,569 Speaker 1: it differently, you know, but I think that's a point 370 00:18:29,579 --> 00:18:31,958 Speaker 1: that will keep coming up. The Prime Minister, there's no 371 00:18:31,969 --> 00:18:34,650 Speaker 1: such onerous criteria. But I think the view is that 372 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:37,290 Speaker 1: if the leader of the ruling party is able to 373 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:38,469 Speaker 1: win the election, 374 00:18:38,709 --> 00:18:41,659 Speaker 1: persuade people of their policies, then he or she should 375 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:44,948 Speaker 1: be able to lead the government. The criteria is definitely 376 00:18:44,959 --> 00:18:47,270 Speaker 1: quite a high bar. But again, I think if you 377 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: put the fact that the president takes care of the 378 00:18:48,930 --> 00:18:52,349 Speaker 1: reserves of then officially makes sense that we will want 379 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,069 Speaker 1: someone who has experience in handling large amounts of capital, 380 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:59,389 Speaker 1: large amounts of manpower, large amounts of resources to oversee 381 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,939 Speaker 1: and act as the second key to extend our discussion. 382 00:19:02,005 --> 00:19:04,344 Speaker 1: I mean, not just about capital, but how about the 383 00:19:04,354 --> 00:19:07,524 Speaker 1: reserved election mechanism? Why can't it be also extended to 384 00:19:07,535 --> 00:19:10,084 Speaker 1: other political office holders as well? We definitely have a 385 00:19:10,094 --> 00:19:12,204 Speaker 1: question about whether the Prime Minister should also be set 386 00:19:12,214 --> 00:19:15,925 Speaker 1: up against the 500 million shareholder capital criteria or other 387 00:19:15,935 --> 00:19:19,514 Speaker 1: forms of responsibilities. But why not even the reserve candidacy 388 00:19:19,525 --> 00:19:23,574 Speaker 1: requirement to to even dive down our discussion deeper from 389 00:19:23,584 --> 00:19:25,234 Speaker 1: what I understand is that 390 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:29,050 Speaker 1: we maybe all the entire criteria we have set for 391 00:19:29,060 --> 00:19:33,050 Speaker 1: the presidency, we will end up with approximately 100 to 392 00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:35,890 Speaker 1: around 100 20 people from the public service. We assuming 393 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:38,839 Speaker 1: that we have around a dozen ministries of a few 394 00:19:38,849 --> 00:19:42,410 Speaker 1: dozen debt boards and other people and other political office holders. 395 00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:44,889 Speaker 1: And we only, I think the last we check the 396 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: A GC also mentioned that for the 500 million shareholder 397 00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:52,089 Speaker 1: capital requirement. Uh back in 2017, only around 600 companies 398 00:19:52,099 --> 00:19:53,849 Speaker 1: could fit that criteria. 399 00:19:54,209 --> 00:19:56,889 Speaker 1: We combine these owners requirements with the fact that we 400 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,849 Speaker 1: might even have a reserve election one day that will 401 00:19:59,859 --> 00:20:02,139 Speaker 1: whittle down the number of people who are eligible to 402 00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:04,829 Speaker 1: be like in the mere handfuls. And within that, we 403 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:06,020 Speaker 1: create an issue of 404 00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:08,290 Speaker 1: uh whether we will actually end up with a day 405 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:12,010 Speaker 1: where no one might be capable of fitting the requirement. Well, 406 00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:14,188 Speaker 1: that was also the argument made when we had the 407 00:20:14,199 --> 00:20:17,709 Speaker 1: racial priority, you know, that they were reserved for certain races. 408 00:20:17,719 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: Because in 2017, same thing when madam Halima came in, 409 00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:24,069 Speaker 1: there was some debate on the criteria for allowing whoever 410 00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:24,250 Speaker 1: in 411 00:20:24,510 --> 00:20:28,180 Speaker 1: actually, do you think it should be open to everyone 412 00:20:28,189 --> 00:20:31,218 Speaker 1: all the time? Every election to every race? Very hard 413 00:20:31,229 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: question to answer because I mean, it boils down to whether, 414 00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: what kind of priorities we want to put for our 415 00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: public service and our political leaders. Do. We want to 416 00:20:39,209 --> 00:20:41,599 Speaker 1: make sure that we always have representation all the time 417 00:20:41,609 --> 00:20:43,270 Speaker 1: or do we always want to ensure that we have 418 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:43,899 Speaker 1: someone to keep 419 00:20:44,015 --> 00:20:46,275 Speaker 1: people at the top? So it's always about balancing between 420 00:20:46,285 --> 00:20:48,514 Speaker 1: these two priorities, right? I mean, Singapore has always prided 421 00:20:48,525 --> 00:20:51,234 Speaker 1: itself in being a meritocracy, I think, is it going 422 00:20:51,244 --> 00:20:53,285 Speaker 1: to be a very hard question to answer all the time? 423 00:20:53,295 --> 00:20:54,655 Speaker 1: There will always be a time where one has to 424 00:20:54,665 --> 00:20:57,185 Speaker 1: Trump over the other when it comes to the Reserve 425 00:20:57,194 --> 00:21:00,875 Speaker 1: Presidency Scheme back then, maybe it did make sense to 426 00:21:00,885 --> 00:21:04,014 Speaker 1: have someone who of an ethnic minority race. So you 427 00:21:04,025 --> 00:21:07,284 Speaker 1: have two important priorities, meritocracy as well as the need 428 00:21:07,295 --> 00:21:08,324 Speaker 1: for the institution 429 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,510 Speaker 1: of the elected president to be multiracial. And I think 430 00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:14,260 Speaker 1: one hit the nail on the head when he said that, 431 00:21:14,270 --> 00:21:16,790 Speaker 1: you know, there could be times at which one value 432 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,969 Speaker 1: would have to take priority over the other. 433 00:21:19,219 --> 00:21:21,790 Speaker 1: And so the reserve election mechanism will only kick in 434 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,329 Speaker 1: after a term of 30 years where you had no 435 00:21:25,339 --> 00:21:28,229 Speaker 1: person from a particular racial group being elected to the 436 00:21:28,239 --> 00:21:31,899 Speaker 1: president for five terms of six years, right? So the 437 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,599 Speaker 1: next reserve election will be for the Indian community if 438 00:21:34,609 --> 00:21:36,589 Speaker 1: no one is elected between now and then and that 439 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:38,989 Speaker 1: will only take place in the 20 thirties. So that's 440 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,599 Speaker 1: when racialism sort of takes priority over meritocracy. But even 441 00:21:42,609 --> 00:21:43,430 Speaker 1: then the same 442 00:21:43,655 --> 00:21:47,025 Speaker 1: criteria would apply to the in a reserve. It's almost 443 00:21:47,035 --> 00:21:48,905 Speaker 1: like the what if right, you get a guy who 444 00:21:48,915 --> 00:21:52,464 Speaker 1: just because there's no one else, therefore he is or 445 00:21:52,474 --> 00:21:56,224 Speaker 1: she is right? But the question, why is it that 446 00:21:56,234 --> 00:21:59,425 Speaker 1: very few men and women are willing to step forward? 447 00:22:00,074 --> 00:22:02,594 Speaker 2: I think this is the ad with this election, one 448 00:22:02,604 --> 00:22:04,464 Speaker 2: is positive, the other is negative. I think the positive 449 00:22:04,474 --> 00:22:06,984 Speaker 2: thing is that what the government's thinking is perhaps give 450 00:22:06,994 --> 00:22:09,974 Speaker 2: opportunity for all because if not, it's always going to 451 00:22:09,984 --> 00:22:12,135 Speaker 2: be the same particular race that will be running for 452 00:22:12,145 --> 00:22:12,685 Speaker 2: in an election. 453 00:22:13,060 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: However, I felt that the reserve presidential election could be 454 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:18,030 Speaker 2: also a sense of tokenism and I think in the 455 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,770 Speaker 2: last election, that was what certain communities that were up 456 00:22:20,780 --> 00:22:23,089 Speaker 2: in arms talking about that. It's a sense of like, 457 00:22:23,099 --> 00:22:25,270 Speaker 2: what is this? It's a sense of tokenism. Like I 458 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,948 Speaker 2: don't really need this because 459 00:22:26,959 --> 00:22:28,979 Speaker 1: regardless of race, one would imagine if you're such a 460 00:22:28,989 --> 00:22:31,709 Speaker 1: great person, everyone will vote for you, whatever race you 461 00:22:31,795 --> 00:22:34,063 Speaker 1: might be right, you would just choose the best person 462 00:22:34,074 --> 00:22:36,564 Speaker 1: for the job at that time. And that's one of 463 00:22:36,574 --> 00:22:40,285 Speaker 1: the challenges because we know the world keeps changing situations evolved. 464 00:22:40,295 --> 00:22:42,864 Speaker 1: We need different people to run the country at different 465 00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:44,844 Speaker 1: points in time. We know that if we had Mr 466 00:22:44,854 --> 00:22:46,685 Speaker 1: Lee Kuan Yew, now it would be a tough fight 467 00:22:46,694 --> 00:22:49,724 Speaker 1: for him to run the country the way he did then. Now, right? 468 00:22:49,734 --> 00:22:50,324 Speaker 1: I mean, 469 00:22:50,819 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: ok, we got a few minutes left. I just want 470 00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:55,390 Speaker 1: to get to this because former editor of the Straits Times, 471 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,569 Speaker 1: Han Fuku wrote, how is bipartisan this nonpartisan, this role? 472 00:22:59,579 --> 00:23:02,430 Speaker 1: But you can be a PP member today, resign and 473 00:23:02,439 --> 00:23:05,329 Speaker 1: then become president tomorrow, which means your loyalties may still 474 00:23:05,339 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 1: be aligned to a certain party. All our past presidents 475 00:23:08,250 --> 00:23:11,449 Speaker 1: have links to the PAP. Can that be problematic in 476 00:23:11,459 --> 00:23:13,290 Speaker 1: the long run? Do you see that as being a 477 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:16,849 Speaker 1: situation that may 1 day work against the governing party 478 00:23:16,859 --> 00:23:19,930 Speaker 1: at the time? I think voters are very sensitive 479 00:23:20,420 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: to whether someone can do the job. If there is 480 00:23:23,770 --> 00:23:26,419 Speaker 1: a sense that a person, regardless of whether he or 481 00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: she comes to a public or private sector, but is 482 00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: so closely connected with the establishment, the government of the 483 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: day that could potentially put off some voters. Right? But 484 00:23:36,489 --> 00:23:38,899 Speaker 1: we must also remember that, you know, when people are 485 00:23:38,910 --> 00:23:40,089 Speaker 1: elected to a position, 486 00:23:40,329 --> 00:23:43,099 Speaker 1: there's certainly expectation that they live up to the oath 487 00:23:43,109 --> 00:23:48,060 Speaker 1: of office, right? And that means being nonpartisan, everyone who 488 00:23:48,069 --> 00:23:51,430 Speaker 1: runs for the presidency will have to resign from whatever 489 00:23:51,439 --> 00:23:54,109 Speaker 1: political party that he or she belongs to. I think 490 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,219 Speaker 1: this is where we have to develop a political culture, 491 00:23:57,229 --> 00:23:59,689 Speaker 1: you know, in which people feel that they should step 492 00:23:59,699 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: up if they believe they can do that 493 00:24:00,964 --> 00:24:03,344 Speaker 1: job, you know, and not wait to be invited or 494 00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:06,375 Speaker 1: to be prodded or to be encouraged. We must recognize 495 00:24:06,385 --> 00:24:09,655 Speaker 1: that when times are good, there are very often no 496 00:24:09,665 --> 00:24:12,854 Speaker 1: compelling reasons for people to run, right? Because when you 497 00:24:12,864 --> 00:24:16,555 Speaker 1: take a public office, right, your life, your privacy, as 498 00:24:16,564 --> 00:24:19,415 Speaker 1: well as your families will be subject to public scrutiny. 499 00:24:19,425 --> 00:24:21,515 Speaker 1: If you are making a good living, 500 00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:24,829 Speaker 1: you're happily doing what you're doing. It will take a 501 00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:27,979 Speaker 1: lot to ask these men and women to say, let 502 00:24:27,989 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: me give it all that up and run for office. 503 00:24:31,030 --> 00:24:32,770 Speaker 1: The irony in it all, I think there will be 504 00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: a challenge over there. You know, this association with the 505 00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 2: ruling party, you know, with the PAP, anyone who is associated. Yes, 506 00:24:40,369 --> 00:24:43,410 Speaker 2: even though he or she might have left or resigned 507 00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:45,649 Speaker 2: from the political party that there will always be the 508 00:24:45,660 --> 00:24:49,020 Speaker 2: association or you came from that party and therefore you 509 00:24:49,030 --> 00:24:50,060 Speaker 2: are associated. 510 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:52,099 Speaker 2: So I think some Singaporeans might come to ask and 511 00:24:52,109 --> 00:24:55,170 Speaker 2: that then how neutral are you really? Because you have 512 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:56,310 Speaker 2: affiliations 513 00:24:56,729 --> 00:24:58,819 Speaker 2: and that might be an issue to some not to 514 00:24:58,829 --> 00:25:01,349 Speaker 2: all some of us are pretty comfortable with it. But 515 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,699 Speaker 2: there were always people who will question your allegiance, right? 516 00:25:04,709 --> 00:25:06,790 Speaker 2: If you're going to be neutral, you're going to stand 517 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,180 Speaker 2: outside of a political party. But your past allegiance and 518 00:25:10,189 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: affiliation is still to that party. 519 00:25:12,010 --> 00:25:14,140 Speaker 1: The issue of the optics is a non statement, right? 520 00:25:14,150 --> 00:25:15,728 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that the long term if we 521 00:25:15,739 --> 00:25:19,698 Speaker 1: have people coming from the same origin party or whatsoever 522 00:25:19,819 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: contributing or taking up the 523 00:25:21,326 --> 00:25:24,135 Speaker 1: position of the president or any other political office holder, 524 00:25:24,145 --> 00:25:27,656 Speaker 1: it would be a symptomatic problem because we recognize that 525 00:25:27,666 --> 00:25:30,926 Speaker 1: the presidential elections require people to meet a very, very 526 00:25:30,936 --> 00:25:34,145 Speaker 1: stringent criteria. And we continuously see people coming from the 527 00:25:34,156 --> 00:25:37,296 Speaker 1: same background, same party that can meet this criteria. Doesn't 528 00:25:37,306 --> 00:25:39,375 Speaker 1: that also beg the question could also argue that because 529 00:25:39,385 --> 00:25:41,995 Speaker 1: Pap has taken all the good people, right? So there's 530 00:25:42,005 --> 00:25:44,696 Speaker 1: no one left, so so to speak, not many and 531 00:25:44,705 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 1: those that are left don't want to run 532 00:25:45,921 --> 00:25:49,161 Speaker 1: merely there is merely a symptomatic issue, I guess. I'm 533 00:25:49,171 --> 00:25:51,681 Speaker 1: not saying there's an issue. It's a sign of something, 534 00:25:51,692 --> 00:25:54,131 Speaker 1: whether or not it's something we have to rectify. I 535 00:25:54,141 --> 00:25:56,811 Speaker 1: don't know. I guess it is outside of the, yeah, I, 536 00:25:56,821 --> 00:25:56,851 Speaker 1: I 537 00:25:56,862 --> 00:25:59,751 Speaker 2: think this, this brings back to the criteria again, you 538 00:25:59,761 --> 00:26:02,952 Speaker 2: see those that can fit perhaps into the criteria, let's say, 539 00:26:02,962 --> 00:26:05,661 Speaker 2: from the private sector and not from the public sector, 540 00:26:05,671 --> 00:26:07,911 Speaker 2: let's say from private sector. And you fit those criteria. 541 00:26:07,921 --> 00:26:10,232 Speaker 2: The question is whether do you want to run? And 542 00:26:10,241 --> 00:26:13,021 Speaker 2: then if you don't run, then you will find 543 00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: it difficult to get someone from the private sector and 544 00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:18,739 Speaker 2: then you get someone from the public sector. I think 545 00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:21,180 Speaker 2: the criteria is such that you will have affiliation. I 546 00:26:21,189 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 2: leave it as that, you know, 547 00:26:24,069 --> 00:26:26,660 Speaker 2: and that's the problem. So it's caught between a rock 548 00:26:26,670 --> 00:26:27,989 Speaker 2: and a hard place. If 549 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,239 Speaker 1: we consistently find it hard to find people to step up, 550 00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:34,140 Speaker 1: then maybe we have to question ourselves. Why perhaps is 551 00:26:34,150 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: it because the criteria is hard or is it the 552 00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:39,050 Speaker 1: climate just makes it not accommodative for people to just 553 00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:40,630 Speaker 1: be their own person and represent 554 00:26:40,729 --> 00:26:42,859 Speaker 1: public interest for their own sake? No, it's because you've 555 00:26:42,869 --> 00:26:45,270 Speaker 1: just heard these guys say life is too good. We've 556 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,430 Speaker 1: ironically made life so good for all our, you know, 557 00:26:47,439 --> 00:26:50,819 Speaker 1: everyone living here that there's no need to do public service. 558 00:26:50,829 --> 00:26:53,319 Speaker 1: You know, you rather not, I shadow the future where 559 00:26:53,329 --> 00:26:54,629 Speaker 1: we have to end up asking whether you have to 560 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,859 Speaker 1: pay presidents even higher salaries. 561 00:26:58,459 --> 00:27:00,630 Speaker 1: But you are 28 right? Let's see. Can you run 562 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,849 Speaker 1: the company by the time you are like 40 45 563 00:27:02,859 --> 00:27:05,609 Speaker 1: I think? Yeah, then you, I wish you can run also. 564 00:27:05,619 --> 00:27:08,829 Speaker 1: We come back. Ok, one last question. What if this 565 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:12,319 Speaker 1: becomes an uncontested election? How would you feel if it 566 00:27:12,329 --> 00:27:14,780 Speaker 1: does end up in an uncontested election? Then you will 567 00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:18,510 Speaker 1: still create maybe some off putting optics as well. It 568 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,709 Speaker 1: just creates the perception that no one wants to run 569 00:27:20,719 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: because it's hard to win or to be elected or 570 00:27:22,969 --> 00:27:25,050 Speaker 1: to meet the criteria or perhaps 571 00:27:25,439 --> 00:27:27,969 Speaker 1: there are some games that play that allow people to 572 00:27:27,979 --> 00:27:31,889 Speaker 1: only certain affiliation or certain backgrounds to be able to 573 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:33,349 Speaker 1: even meet this criteria. I 574 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: think it will go back to what madam Halima faced 575 00:27:35,770 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 2: as well. Firstly, I think you will have the general 576 00:27:37,689 --> 00:27:41,929 Speaker 2: public saying hashtag not my president with that mind, right? 577 00:27:41,939 --> 00:27:45,209 Speaker 2: If that continues that sort of thing, keep the walkovers, 578 00:27:45,219 --> 00:27:49,130 Speaker 2: keep capping and over and over again. Singaporeans will be disillusioned. 579 00:27:49,770 --> 00:27:51,050 Speaker 2: They will call into question 580 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:55,050 Speaker 2: the very role of the president. Why bother? Why do 581 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: I want to vote even if there's going to be 582 00:27:57,569 --> 00:27:59,599 Speaker 2: a chance in the future to go and vote for 583 00:27:59,609 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: the president? The question is why do I want to bother? 584 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:03,839 Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, you know, who's 585 00:28:03,849 --> 00:28:06,239 Speaker 2: going to win or there might be a walkover because 586 00:28:06,250 --> 00:28:09,500 Speaker 2: you can't fit into and meet up to the criteria 587 00:28:09,609 --> 00:28:12,430 Speaker 1: if we have a situation where the government in response 588 00:28:12,439 --> 00:28:15,339 Speaker 1: to people's desire for a contested election. 589 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:18,459 Speaker 1: And they go about trying to engineer a contest. I 590 00:28:18,469 --> 00:28:21,150 Speaker 1: think that will also come out really badly, you know. So, 591 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: so this is where, you know, I think the point 592 00:28:22,890 --> 00:28:26,550 Speaker 1: about why are people not stepping forward, we need to 593 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: examine that and certainly we hope that with all this 594 00:28:29,290 --> 00:28:33,510 Speaker 1: discussion and as society matures, we will have people offering 595 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,449 Speaker 1: themselves stepping up and giving Singaporeans the opportunity to decide 596 00:28:37,459 --> 00:28:39,510 Speaker 1: who they think should be our head of state. 597 00:28:39,890 --> 00:28:41,839 Speaker 1: Thank you all for coming in and for sharing your 598 00:28:41,849 --> 00:28:44,170 Speaker 1: thoughts with us. We've, I think shed some light on 599 00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:47,010 Speaker 1: just how important this role actually really is. And while 600 00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:49,719 Speaker 1: we may quibble about the semantics of how we choose 601 00:28:49,729 --> 00:28:51,810 Speaker 1: that person, if we look beyond that, I think we 602 00:28:51,819 --> 00:28:56,020 Speaker 1: agree that having the right person is important, very important 603 00:28:56,030 --> 00:28:58,729 Speaker 1: for Singapore, not just on the world stage, but also 604 00:28:58,739 --> 00:29:00,939 Speaker 1: within our own shores here, but in a world that 605 00:29:00,949 --> 00:29:02,699 Speaker 1: changes so quickly, we have to expect that 606 00:29:02,854 --> 00:29:05,165 Speaker 1: maybe six years when it's time to let our president again, 607 00:29:05,175 --> 00:29:08,375 Speaker 1: you know, expectations will have changed as well for what 608 00:29:08,385 --> 00:29:11,984 Speaker 1: holds true today may no longer hold true tomorrow. So 609 00:29:11,994 --> 00:29:13,395 Speaker 1: on that note, I want to say thank you for 610 00:29:13,405 --> 00:29:15,925 Speaker 1: listening in. And if you have any thoughts and feedback 611 00:29:15,935 --> 00:29:17,925 Speaker 1: on this. Please drop us a note. We do love 612 00:29:17,935 --> 00:29:19,584 Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can find us on all 613 00:29:19,594 --> 00:29:22,344 Speaker 1: our usual social media platforms. You can also drop us 614 00:29:22,354 --> 00:29:25,744 Speaker 1: an email CN A podcast at dot com dot SG. 615 00:29:26,130 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: We hope this discussion has given you some food for thought. 616 00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:31,420 Speaker 1: The CN A podcast team is made up of Jacqueline Chan, 617 00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:37,930 Speaker 1: Joanne Chan Tiffany Ang Charlene, so and Christina Robert, I'm 618 00:29:37,939 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: Steven saying, keep talking, keep connecting. I'll see you soon.