Speaker 1: This is a C N A podcast,
Speaker 1: real Art or N F T S as an investment
Speaker 2: personally. Yeah. Real art.
Speaker 1: Top three factors to consider when buying an NF
Speaker 2: T, does it have a use case in the world?
Speaker 2: Why am I buying this N F T? Does it
Speaker 2: have intrinsic value to me? In which case? That's a
Speaker 2: personal choice? And what Blockchain is it on? Is it
Speaker 2: something that is easily transferable, easily re sellable
Speaker 1: N F T s by now or never?
Speaker 2: If you want to get into the space, I would
Speaker 2: never say never maybe now.
Speaker 1: Good to have you with me on money talks. I'm
Speaker 1: Andrea Hang now N F T s or non fungible tokens.
Speaker 1: They broke into the mainstream news narrative in 2021 with
Speaker 1: their eye watering price tags. Jack Dorsey, founder of Twitter
Speaker 1: sold his first ever tweet as an N F T
Speaker 1: for $2.9 million.
Speaker 1: Digital artist. People sold an N F T of his
Speaker 1: work for $69 million. Virtually anything digital can be converted
Speaker 1: and sold as an N F T video clips, audio
Speaker 1: wave files, game Avatars art. Even memes, maybe it's time
Speaker 1: for me to rethink my career. But what makes an
Speaker 1: N F T V
Speaker 1: valuable or seen as a collectible after all digital files
Speaker 1: can be easily an endlessly duplicated, right? Think of N
Speaker 1: F T S as a one of a kind digital asset.
Speaker 1: The digital file is tokenized to create a digital certificate
Speaker 1: of ownership, kind of like a C O E that
Speaker 1: it can be bought and then sold again. And that
Speaker 1: ownership record is stored on a shared ledger known as
Speaker 1: a Blockchain.
Speaker 1: So are you simply buying bragging rights when you're buying
Speaker 1: an N F T beyond the hype and headline making
Speaker 1: prices are N F T s and investment asset worth
Speaker 1: looking at to help us compute this return to Sanya
Speaker 1: Blockchain insights lead for momentum works. Hey, Sanya, well,
Speaker 1: it's
Speaker 2: so nice to be here
Speaker 1: with you. Good to have you with us in person to. Okay.
Speaker 1: So if you had to explain N F T to
Speaker 1: a complete newbie, how would you do it?
Speaker 2: Right. So first I would say let's break down the
Speaker 2: three words. So it's a non fungible token.
Speaker 2: So non fungible, more or less means that it's unique.
Speaker 2: So when we talk about crypto and Blockchain, you can
Speaker 2: trade if I have one ether or one Ethereum, I
Speaker 2: can trade that for another one and I have the
Speaker 2: exact same thing and
Speaker 1: an ether and Ethereum is a currency.
Speaker 2: It's a Cryptocurrency. So it's like having $12 note or
Speaker 2: one ether. You trade it for another $2 note or
Speaker 2: another ether. That's fungible. You can have the exact same thing,
Speaker 2: but with an N F T it's non fungible, it's
Speaker 2: completely unique. And so it's really just this unique asset
Speaker 2: that is stored on the Blockchain.
Speaker 1: Okay. Have you bought an N F D? Do you have,
Speaker 1: how many,
Speaker 2: maybe too many to count? Now,
Speaker 1: what do you mean too many? I
Speaker 2: have a lot of N F T s mainly
Speaker 2: because when I was getting into the space, I think
Speaker 2: the only real way to fully understand it is to
Speaker 2: dive in with.
Speaker 1: Of course, of course. Um And are the N F
Speaker 1: T s that you bought mainly art or what kind
Speaker 1: of mess did you
Speaker 2: get? I've bought N F T s that are art.
Speaker 2: I've bought an N F T that supports the production
Speaker 2: of a movie.
Speaker 2: So as that movie goes into production and if it
Speaker 2: earns money, I get some of that royalty back
Speaker 1: to myself. Okay. Okay. So anything digital, including this podcast
Speaker 1: as an audio wave file, it can in theory be
Speaker 1: tokenized and then sold it as an N F T,
Speaker 2: right? Would you like me to make this an N
Speaker 2: F T? I can do that?
Speaker 1: Fabulous. I think my producer wants to buy it. Maybe not,
Speaker 1: depends on how much it's gonna cost, I guess. Okay.
Speaker 1: So the,
Speaker 1: the N F T market said to be worth $22
Speaker 1: billion in 2021. It blows my mind. So who is
Speaker 1: buying up all these N F T s? Are they
Speaker 1: art collectors, investors speculators or just like fans of memes?
Speaker 2: Right? So I think when we're talking about N F
Speaker 2: T s in this case, it's, it's one specific use case.
Speaker 2: So it's looking at the art or the collectible aspect
Speaker 2: of N F T s.
Speaker 2: The N F T itself is the underlying technology. It's
Speaker 2: not the PEC itself. And so I think when we're
Speaker 2: talking about art and collectible N F T s, yes,
Speaker 2: it probably is. People who are fans of those concepts
Speaker 2: outside of the fact that they're N F T s.
Speaker 2: So for example, with NBA top shot, you'll have a
Speaker 2: lot of basketball fans buying those N F T s
Speaker 2: or with Nike N F T s, you'll have a
Speaker 2: lot of fans of Nike buying the Nike N F
Speaker 2: T s
Speaker 2: and so beyond the art and collectible, it's, it's the
Speaker 2: same thing as any fan memorabilia when we're looking at
Speaker 2: that one use case. So
Speaker 1: kind of like collecting those cards, right? Those Pokemon cards.
Speaker 1: It's
Speaker 2: exactly like Pokemon cards. Anyone can buy one until you
Speaker 2: get into the really rare stuff. And then yes, it becomes,
Speaker 2: it becomes very pricey
Speaker 1: when you say it's worth this much. Half people paid
Speaker 1: actual money for these N F T So we said
Speaker 1: earlier that the N F T market's worth 22 billion
Speaker 1: as far as 2021 goes, are people paying actual money?
Speaker 1: So did Jack Dorsey actually get paid 2.9 million U
Speaker 1: S dollars for his first tweet as an N F T? Well,
Speaker 2: so he probably got paid in
Speaker 2: Ethereum is my guess. And then he went and transferred
Speaker 2: that Ethereum to a fiat currency like us
Speaker 1: dollars. The only way to transact an N F T
Speaker 1: is through a Cryptocurrency. For
Speaker 2: the most part, there are some online N F T
Speaker 2: marketplace is that let you transact with your credit card
Speaker 2: and they take care of that conversion into Cryptocurrency and
Speaker 2: their back end and you never see it, but you
Speaker 2: can pay with your own currency. Here's
Speaker 1: something I'm struggling with
Speaker 1: why N F T s are even worth money. Like
Speaker 1: what's their intrinsic value? Because digital files are so easily replicated, duplicated.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just right click on the mouth duplicate
Speaker 1: and it's there like another copy is there doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter if you have a certificate
Speaker 1: that you're the rightful owner of this piece of work.
Speaker 1: It just sounds like bragging rights to me. And how
Speaker 1: is that worth any money? Sure.
Speaker 2: Let me break that down into two parts. So I
Speaker 2: think with N F T S it comes down to
Speaker 2: perceived value. So if I'm a little bit more reductive
Speaker 2: about it, how is a banknote worth anything, right? It's
Speaker 2: worth it because people believe that it's worth it, then
Speaker 2: it has the other layer of being backed by the government.
Speaker 2: So there's trust.
Speaker 2: So that's one aspect of it. If there are enough
Speaker 2: people that believe that there's value, there's value. And then
Speaker 2: there's also the problem that comes with that. If it's
Speaker 2: not backed by a trusted authority, the value changes dramatically,
Speaker 2: it's very volatile. And then the second part of that answer,
Speaker 2: I guess I would say
Speaker 2: is that, have you ever bought one of those prints of, say,
Speaker 2: a Monet painting or a van Gogh painting? I
Speaker 1: mean, postcards at the art gallery. Exactly. So
Speaker 2: millions of people have those, right. The same way millions
Speaker 2: of people can right, click on your N F T
Speaker 2: and download the JPEG, but only one person has that
Speaker 2: Monet hanging in their house or that van Gogh hanging
Speaker 2: in their house. And
Speaker 2: I could tell you that I do, but you'd never
Speaker 2: know if I was telling the truth or not. With
Speaker 2: an N F T, I can show you that I
Speaker 2: really do own
Speaker 1: that. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's the thing that
Speaker 1: I'm struggling with because it's, it's not a physical item
Speaker 1: that I own. Right. And while I'm also not paying
Speaker 1: it physical money per se in the currency that we
Speaker 1: all know,
Speaker 1: it's the fact that I'm doing everything digitally and it's
Speaker 1: not tangible. And I think some people struggle with that.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: agree. And you know, I think that comes down to
Speaker 2: why N F T s were created in the first place.
Speaker 2: We're increasingly living more of our lives in the digital
Speaker 2: space and say, let's take a very real life example.
Speaker 2: I have a picture of myself that I posted on Instagram.
Speaker 2: Anyone can view that picture, but it's not mine per se.
Speaker 2: It's a copy that exists on Instagram servers.
Speaker 2: So if I actually wanted to own that picture and
Speaker 2: have a way to prove that it's my picture and
Speaker 2: fts can come in to solve that problem.
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. That's one way of looking at it because
Speaker 1: I take a lot of nice photos on Instagram and
Speaker 1: I don't own them. No. Okay. So game developers, they've
Speaker 1: also hopped onto the bandwagon. They're developing in game items
Speaker 1: and avatars and they're selling them or marketing them as
Speaker 1: N F T s that can be bought and sold
Speaker 1: and then used within the game sphere
Speaker 1: only. So I see the value in that as an
Speaker 1: asset but things like tweets memes that blows my mind
Speaker 1: memes or a picture of a board monkey. I mean,
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem very valuable to me, to me. I understand.
Speaker 1: So how should investors then decide on which an F
Speaker 1: T to invest in? What makes it investable? I
Speaker 2: guess when it comes to investment, I think the rule
Speaker 2: of thumb is only to invest in things that you
Speaker 2: fully understand,
Speaker 2: otherwise I would call it more speculation than investment. And
Speaker 2: that's where N F T s can be seen. I
Speaker 2: think more as a speculative asset. You can even say
Speaker 2: it's akin to buying a lottery ticket. It's, you're hoping
Speaker 2: that you win something, you're hoping that it increases in value.
Speaker 2: So I'm not totally sure that in that case, we
Speaker 2: can call it an investment when you invest in the
Speaker 2: use cases of N F T s that can provide
Speaker 2: real world tangible value and companies that are developing that technology,
Speaker 2: that's an investment I would say. But I think the
Speaker 2: advice to everyone is to just only really invest in things.
Speaker 2: You fully understand. What is
Speaker 1: it that I need to understand? If I'm investing in
Speaker 1: an N F T,
Speaker 2: it can be very volatile because there's no real trust
Speaker 2: backed entity there. When you're talking about a picture of
Speaker 2: a board, a por something something very interesting that have
Speaker 2: been happening in this fear actually is that
Speaker 2: the sec in the United States actually has set some
Speaker 2: sort of precedent saying that N F T s can
Speaker 2: be considered securities because you're depending on the company that
Speaker 2: produces the N F T doing well to give value
Speaker 2: to your portfolio. So I think you're really having to
Speaker 2: deep dive and understand what is the mission of that
Speaker 2: with people who buy N F T S. It's a
Speaker 2: reflection on them,
Speaker 2: they buy them for avatars, they buy them to showcase
Speaker 2: aspects of their personality when they're living their digital life.
Speaker 2: And so I think if that's the value to you,
Speaker 2: then it's an investment in your eyes. But not all
Speaker 2: N F T s are created equal. The technology can
Speaker 2: get very mumbo jumbo. If you really understand the risk
Speaker 2: that you're willing to take, then it's like any other investment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I heard of an artist who gave the audience at
Speaker 1: a show the choice to buy the N F T
Speaker 1: of his artwork
Speaker 1: and his artwork. So people who bought the N F
Speaker 1: T s okay. They ran along, they had their N
Speaker 1: F T s and then the one that decided to
Speaker 1: buy the artwork were basically left hanging because the artist
Speaker 1: decided to go burn the original artwork. I mean, this
Speaker 1: made headlines back in the days. What are your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that? So
Speaker 2: that momentum works. We actually used that exact example in
Speaker 2: our first three report.
Speaker 2: And I've had people make the argument to me that
Speaker 2: the same way you can lose a piece of paper,
Speaker 2: you can forget your password and then the same issue, right?
Speaker 2: You've lost the N F T. But that's actually the
Speaker 2: argument that I would make back in that case because
Speaker 2: that's exactly right. A flood can damage a piece of paper,
Speaker 2: you can burn it, you can rip it up. There's
Speaker 2: a little bit more security when it's on the Blockchain
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 2: it's something that you can prove at any time belongs
Speaker 2: to you. Everybody can see it on a public Blockchain.
Speaker 2: You're not the only person who can see that at
Speaker 2: any given time.
Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. My name is Christina and I'm Adrienne and
Speaker 1: we're the host of a podcast called work it if
Speaker 1: you never heard of it. Well, it's a good time
Speaker 1: to tap in, in the last 20 episodes. We've discussed
Speaker 1: topics like how to negotiate for a salary increase or
Speaker 1: how to get along with younger colleagues who have different
Speaker 1: values from you, which
Speaker 1: incidentally is our top performing episode. If what consumes your
Speaker 1: life and you want some perspective on issues like management stress,
Speaker 1: even office romance. This podcast should be on your list.
Speaker 1: A new episode drops every Monday. Catch us on the
Speaker 1: Sienna app or wherever you get your podcast
Speaker 1: looking at the landscape. Now, are there some N F
Speaker 1: T s that are, I guess safer for the lack
Speaker 1: of a better word than others? Like some are less
Speaker 1: speculative than others? Just out of curiosity? You
Speaker 2: know, that's a good question.
Speaker 2: I think the N F T s that are less
Speaker 2: speculative are the ones that have utility so you can
Speaker 2: buy N F T s. Beyond just buying them to collect,
Speaker 2: you can buy them as tickets to concerts, you can
Speaker 2: buy them to watch a TV show. There's a TV
Speaker 2: show out there that I think stars Mila Kunis that
Speaker 2: you need to buy an N F T to be
Speaker 2: able to watch and so they can serve as verification
Speaker 2: in that sense or
Speaker 2: they can serve as a ticket to a
Speaker 1: concert. Alright. Okay. Should I only go for N F
Speaker 1: T s that are backed by a bank or a
Speaker 1: known institution? I'll throw a
Speaker 2: question back at you. Should you only buy stocks and
Speaker 2: bonds that are backed by, you know, trusted entities? I
Speaker 2: would say yes. Yeah, I think people should answer both
Speaker 2: of those questions in similar ways. Okay.
Speaker 1: That's a good way of putting it. So the NFC market,
Speaker 1: It's exciting for investors because you know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of amazing growth potential, at least that's what's been reported, right?
Speaker 1: So some reports estimate a compound annual growth rate of 35%
Speaker 1: per year. That's huge compared to other investment classes such
Speaker 1: as stocks or property. Obviously, given the caveats that we've
Speaker 1: been talking about when it comes to NFTS as an investment.
Speaker 1: Do you think though
Speaker 1: that we can still consider N F T s as
Speaker 1: part of an average investorsportfolios something my husband would call
Speaker 1: play money.
Speaker 1: Is it worth looking into to put it in my portfolio?
Speaker 2: You know, digital assets in general are in their early days.
Speaker 2: Will there be more digital assets moving forward? How do
Speaker 2: we link physical value to these digital assets? These are
Speaker 2: all questions and proving ownership of those digital assets has
Speaker 2: been a challenge and we really do believe there's a
Speaker 2: future for N F T s,
Speaker 2: but we don't know how big or small that future
Speaker 2: is going to be yet. And whether to consider that
Speaker 2: a standard part of an investment portfolio, I'm not totally
Speaker 2: sure at this point in time given how early we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very important question to ask, especially if
Speaker 1: you want to look at it in terms of an investment.
Speaker 1: It depends on your investment personality, right? Whether you're an
Speaker 1: earlier doctor or you're a follower, you want to see
Speaker 1: what happens. It really just does depend on what kind
Speaker 1: of risk appetite you have as an
Speaker 1: investor. Right?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think we think about the way people
Speaker 2: do due diligence on traditional investments. It's important to do
Speaker 2: that even when you're looking at an N F T
Speaker 2: and N F T project, even if you're just doing
Speaker 2: it personally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely. Okay. So N F T s we established they
Speaker 1: are largely paid with Cryptocurrency like Ethereum. So their value
Speaker 1: is then tied to crypto, which we know is very
Speaker 1: volatile right now. Should your average
Speaker 1: retail investors even be looking at N F T s
Speaker 1: as an investment? So I know a lot of younger
Speaker 1: people are turning to retail investment, a lot of it's
Speaker 1: very accessible now and they're jumping on this N F
Speaker 1: T bandwagon. What's your
Speaker 2: take? So me personally, I would say it has become
Speaker 2: more of a speculative asset when we're talking about our
Speaker 2: N F T s and the types of N F
Speaker 2: T s that you would buy at open sea that
Speaker 2: are attached to pegs, right?
Speaker 2: Their digital assets in their early days, we believe that
Speaker 2: there is a future in front of t is how
Speaker 2: big that future is. We're not totally sure what their
Speaker 2: use cases will be that move into the mainstream. We're
Speaker 2: not totally sure will there be more digital assets moving forward?
Speaker 2: Are we going to live our lives increasingly in a
Speaker 2: digital space? These are all questions to consider and like
Speaker 2: Ice
Speaker 2: said, really to do your research and due diligence and
Speaker 2: see the utility of what you're buying and whether it's
Speaker 2: something that you're buying for yourself personally to showcase an
Speaker 2: aspect of your personality in your digital space or is
Speaker 2: it purely an investment in which case really look at it?
Speaker 2: Like you would look at any other investment and do
Speaker 2: the adequate research, do the due diligence behind it. So
Speaker 2: if
Speaker 1: I already own an N F T, should I be
Speaker 1: looking to sell it now or should I hang on
Speaker 1: to it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. Like I said, not all
Speaker 2: N F T s are created equal.
Speaker 1: Have you sold any N F T s in recent
Speaker 1: times or are you hanging on to all of them? Still?
Speaker 2: I honestly could not for the life of me. Tell
Speaker 2: you which N F T S I have right now
Speaker 2: and where they are because
Speaker 1: you bought, just
Speaker 2: because I've bought, I've bought quite a few.
Speaker 1: Okay, final advice for our listeners who may be thinking
Speaker 1: of investing in N F T s or just buying
Speaker 1: an N F T, please,
Speaker 2: please do your research only invest in things that you
Speaker 2: fully understand and really look into the technology behind N
Speaker 2: F T s because it's so interesting and it is
Speaker 2: going to be something that is prevalent in our lives
Speaker 2: beyond just collecting art and be open minded. You never
Speaker 2: know
Speaker 2: where it's gonna go.
Speaker 1: All right. So thanks so much, Sanya for spilling the
Speaker 1: tea on N F T s giving us a clearer
Speaker 1: picture on what makes them valuable time. So our N
Speaker 1: F T is worth it, I guess as with all investments,
Speaker 1: know your own risk appetite, do your homework. Sanya has
Speaker 1: emphasized this over and over again, do your research before
Speaker 1: committing and thank you to you, our listener.
Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this episode of Money Talks as more
Speaker 1: content for you to enjoy, simply follow us on Apple
Speaker 1: podcasts or Spotify, give us five stars or better yet.
Speaker 1: Leave a review. We want to know what you think
Speaker 1: if you have feedback to write to us at Sienna
Speaker 1: podcasts at mediacorp dot com dot SG. The team behind
Speaker 1: Money Talks is Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan Christina Robert, and
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea