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Speaker 1: This is a C N A podcast,

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Speaker 1: real Art or N F T S as an investment

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Speaker 2: personally. Yeah. Real art.

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Speaker 1: Top three factors to consider when buying an NF

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Speaker 2: T, does it have a use case in the world?

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Speaker 2: Why am I buying this N F T? Does it

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Speaker 2: have intrinsic value to me? In which case? That's a

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Speaker 2: personal choice? And what Blockchain is it on? Is it

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Speaker 2: something that is easily transferable, easily re sellable

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Speaker 1: N F T s by now or never?

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Speaker 2: If you want to get into the space, I would

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Speaker 2: never say never maybe now.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you with me on money talks. I'm

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Speaker 1: Andrea Hang now N F T s or non fungible tokens.

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Speaker 1: They broke into the mainstream news narrative in 2021 with

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Speaker 1: their eye watering price tags. Jack Dorsey, founder of Twitter

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Speaker 1: sold his first ever tweet as an N F T

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Speaker 1: for $2.9 million.

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Speaker 1: Digital artist. People sold an N F T of his

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Speaker 1: work for $69 million. Virtually anything digital can be converted

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Speaker 1: and sold as an N F T video clips, audio

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Speaker 1: wave files, game Avatars art. Even memes, maybe it's time

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Speaker 1: for me to rethink my career. But what makes an

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Speaker 1: N F T V

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Speaker 1: valuable or seen as a collectible after all digital files

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Speaker 1: can be easily an endlessly duplicated, right? Think of N

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Speaker 1: F T S as a one of a kind digital asset.

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Speaker 1: The digital file is tokenized to create a digital certificate

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Speaker 1: of ownership, kind of like a C O E that

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Speaker 1: it can be bought and then sold again. And that

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Speaker 1: ownership record is stored on a shared ledger known as

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Speaker 1: a Blockchain.

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Speaker 1: So are you simply buying bragging rights when you're buying

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Speaker 1: an N F T beyond the hype and headline making

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Speaker 1: prices are N F T s and investment asset worth

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Speaker 1: looking at to help us compute this return to Sanya

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Speaker 1: Blockchain insights lead for momentum works. Hey, Sanya, well,

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Speaker 1: it's

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Speaker 2: so nice to be here

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Speaker 1: with you. Good to have you with us in person to. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So if you had to explain N F T to

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Speaker 1: a complete newbie, how would you do it?

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Speaker 2: Right. So first I would say let's break down the

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Speaker 2: three words. So it's a non fungible token.

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Speaker 2: So non fungible, more or less means that it's unique.

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Speaker 2: So when we talk about crypto and Blockchain, you can

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Speaker 2: trade if I have one ether or one Ethereum, I

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Speaker 2: can trade that for another one and I have the

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Speaker 2: exact same thing and

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Speaker 1: an ether and Ethereum is a currency.

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Speaker 2: It's a Cryptocurrency. So it's like having $12 note or

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Speaker 2: one ether. You trade it for another $2 note or

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Speaker 2: another ether. That's fungible. You can have the exact same thing,

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Speaker 2: but with an N F T it's non fungible, it's

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Speaker 2: completely unique. And so it's really just this unique asset

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Speaker 2: that is stored on the Blockchain.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Have you bought an N F D? Do you have,

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Speaker 1: how many,

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Speaker 2: maybe too many to count? Now,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean too many? I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of N F T s mainly

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Speaker 2: because when I was getting into the space, I think

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Speaker 2: the only real way to fully understand it is to

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Speaker 2: dive in with.

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Speaker 1: Of course, of course. Um And are the N F

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Speaker 1: T s that you bought mainly art or what kind

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Speaker 1: of mess did you

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Speaker 2: get? I've bought N F T s that are art.

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Speaker 2: I've bought an N F T that supports the production

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Speaker 2: of a movie.

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Speaker 2: So as that movie goes into production and if it

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Speaker 2: earns money, I get some of that royalty back

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Speaker 1: to myself. Okay. Okay. So anything digital, including this podcast

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Speaker 1: as an audio wave file, it can in theory be

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Speaker 1: tokenized and then sold it as an N F T,

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Speaker 2: right? Would you like me to make this an N

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Speaker 2: F T? I can do that?

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Speaker 1: Fabulous. I think my producer wants to buy it. Maybe not,

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Speaker 1: depends on how much it's gonna cost, I guess. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the,

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Speaker 1: the N F T market said to be worth $22

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Speaker 1: billion in 2021. It blows my mind. So who is

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Speaker 1: buying up all these N F T s? Are they

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Speaker 1: art collectors, investors speculators or just like fans of memes?

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Speaker 2: Right? So I think when we're talking about N F

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Speaker 2: T s in this case, it's, it's one specific use case.

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Speaker 2: So it's looking at the art or the collectible aspect

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Speaker 2: of N F T s.

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Speaker 2: The N F T itself is the underlying technology. It's

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Speaker 2: not the PEC itself. And so I think when we're

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Speaker 2: talking about art and collectible N F T s, yes,

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Speaker 2: it probably is. People who are fans of those concepts

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Speaker 2: outside of the fact that they're N F T s.

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Speaker 2: So for example, with NBA top shot, you'll have a

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Speaker 2: lot of basketball fans buying those N F T s

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Speaker 2: or with Nike N F T s, you'll have a

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Speaker 2: lot of fans of Nike buying the Nike N F

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Speaker 2: T s

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Speaker 2: and so beyond the art and collectible, it's, it's the

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Speaker 2: same thing as any fan memorabilia when we're looking at

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Speaker 2: that one use case. So

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Speaker 1: kind of like collecting those cards, right? Those Pokemon cards.

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Speaker 1: It's

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Speaker 2: exactly like Pokemon cards. Anyone can buy one until you

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Speaker 2: get into the really rare stuff. And then yes, it becomes,

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Speaker 2: it becomes very pricey

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Speaker 1: when you say it's worth this much. Half people paid

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Speaker 1: actual money for these N F T So we said

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Speaker 1: earlier that the N F T market's worth 22 billion

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Speaker 1: as far as 2021 goes, are people paying actual money?

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Speaker 1: So did Jack Dorsey actually get paid 2.9 million U

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Speaker 1: S dollars for his first tweet as an N F T? Well,

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Speaker 2: so he probably got paid in

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Speaker 2: Ethereum is my guess. And then he went and transferred

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Speaker 2: that Ethereum to a fiat currency like us

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Speaker 1: dollars. The only way to transact an N F T

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Speaker 1: is through a Cryptocurrency. For

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Speaker 2: the most part, there are some online N F T

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Speaker 2: marketplace is that let you transact with your credit card

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Speaker 2: and they take care of that conversion into Cryptocurrency and

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Speaker 2: their back end and you never see it, but you

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Speaker 2: can pay with your own currency. Here's

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Speaker 1: something I'm struggling with

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Speaker 1: why N F T s are even worth money. Like

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Speaker 1: what's their intrinsic value? Because digital files are so easily replicated, duplicated.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just right click on the mouth duplicate

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Speaker 1: and it's there like another copy is there doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter if you have a certificate

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Speaker 1: that you're the rightful owner of this piece of work.

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Speaker 1: It just sounds like bragging rights to me. And how

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Speaker 1: is that worth any money? Sure.

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Speaker 2: Let me break that down into two parts. So I

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Speaker 2: think with N F T S it comes down to

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Speaker 2: perceived value. So if I'm a little bit more reductive

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Speaker 2: about it, how is a banknote worth anything, right? It's

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Speaker 2: worth it because people believe that it's worth it, then

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Speaker 2: it has the other layer of being backed by the government.

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Speaker 2: So there's trust.

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Speaker 2: So that's one aspect of it. If there are enough

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Speaker 2: people that believe that there's value, there's value. And then

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Speaker 2: there's also the problem that comes with that. If it's

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Speaker 2: not backed by a trusted authority, the value changes dramatically,

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Speaker 2: it's very volatile. And then the second part of that answer,

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Speaker 2: I guess I would say

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Speaker 2: is that, have you ever bought one of those prints of, say,

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Speaker 2: a Monet painting or a van Gogh painting? I

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Speaker 1: mean, postcards at the art gallery. Exactly. So

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Speaker 2: millions of people have those, right. The same way millions

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Speaker 2: of people can right, click on your N F T

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Speaker 2: and download the JPEG, but only one person has that

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Speaker 2: Monet hanging in their house or that van Gogh hanging

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Speaker 2: in their house. And

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Speaker 2: I could tell you that I do, but you'd never

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Speaker 2: know if I was telling the truth or not. With

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Speaker 2: an N F T, I can show you that I

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Speaker 2: really do own

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Speaker 1: that. Yeah. Exactly. And I think that's the thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm struggling with because it's, it's not a physical item

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Speaker 1: that I own. Right. And while I'm also not paying

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Speaker 1: it physical money per se in the currency that we

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Speaker 1: all know,

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Speaker 1: it's the fact that I'm doing everything digitally and it's

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Speaker 1: not tangible. And I think some people struggle with that.

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: agree. And you know, I think that comes down to

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Speaker 2: why N F T s were created in the first place.

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Speaker 2: We're increasingly living more of our lives in the digital

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Speaker 2: space and say, let's take a very real life example.

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Speaker 2: I have a picture of myself that I posted on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: Anyone can view that picture, but it's not mine per se.

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Speaker 2: It's a copy that exists on Instagram servers.

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Speaker 2: So if I actually wanted to own that picture and

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Speaker 2: have a way to prove that it's my picture and

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Speaker 2: fts can come in to solve that problem.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. That's one way of looking at it because

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Speaker 1: I take a lot of nice photos on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: I don't own them. No. Okay. So game developers, they've

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Speaker 1: also hopped onto the bandwagon. They're developing in game items

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Speaker 1: and avatars and they're selling them or marketing them as

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Speaker 1: N F T s that can be bought and sold

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Speaker 1: and then used within the game sphere

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Speaker 1: only. So I see the value in that as an

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Speaker 1: asset but things like tweets memes that blows my mind

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Speaker 1: memes or a picture of a board monkey. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem very valuable to me, to me. I understand.

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Speaker 1: So how should investors then decide on which an F

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Speaker 1: T to invest in? What makes it investable? I

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Speaker 2: guess when it comes to investment, I think the rule

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Speaker 2: of thumb is only to invest in things that you

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Speaker 2: fully understand,

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Speaker 2: otherwise I would call it more speculation than investment. And

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Speaker 2: that's where N F T s can be seen. I

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Speaker 2: think more as a speculative asset. You can even say

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Speaker 2: it's akin to buying a lottery ticket. It's, you're hoping

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Speaker 2: that you win something, you're hoping that it increases in value.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not totally sure that in that case, we

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Speaker 2: can call it an investment when you invest in the

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Speaker 2: use cases of N F T s that can provide

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Speaker 2: real world tangible value and companies that are developing that technology,

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Speaker 2: that's an investment I would say. But I think the

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Speaker 2: advice to everyone is to just only really invest in things.

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Speaker 2: You fully understand. What is

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Speaker 1: it that I need to understand? If I'm investing in

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Speaker 1: an N F T,

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Speaker 2: it can be very volatile because there's no real trust

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Speaker 2: backed entity there. When you're talking about a picture of

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Speaker 2: a board, a por something something very interesting that have

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Speaker 2: been happening in this fear actually is that

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Speaker 2: the sec in the United States actually has set some

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Speaker 2: sort of precedent saying that N F T s can

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Speaker 2: be considered securities because you're depending on the company that

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Speaker 2: produces the N F T doing well to give value

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Speaker 2: to your portfolio. So I think you're really having to

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Speaker 2: deep dive and understand what is the mission of that

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Speaker 2: with people who buy N F T S. It's a

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Speaker 2: reflection on them,

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Speaker 2: they buy them for avatars, they buy them to showcase

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Speaker 2: aspects of their personality when they're living their digital life.

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Speaker 2: And so I think if that's the value to you,

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Speaker 2: then it's an investment in your eyes. But not all

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Speaker 2: N F T s are created equal. The technology can

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Speaker 2: get very mumbo jumbo. If you really understand the risk

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Speaker 2: that you're willing to take, then it's like any other investment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I heard of an artist who gave the audience at

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Speaker 1: a show the choice to buy the N F T

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Speaker 1: of his artwork

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Speaker 1: and his artwork. So people who bought the N F

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Speaker 1: T s okay. They ran along, they had their N

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Speaker 1: F T s and then the one that decided to

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Speaker 1: buy the artwork were basically left hanging because the artist

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Speaker 1: decided to go burn the original artwork. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: made headlines back in the days. What are your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on that? So

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Speaker 2: that momentum works. We actually used that exact example in

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Speaker 2: our first three report.

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Speaker 2: And I've had people make the argument to me that

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Speaker 2: the same way you can lose a piece of paper,

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Speaker 2: you can forget your password and then the same issue, right?

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Speaker 2: You've lost the N F T. But that's actually the

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Speaker 2: argument that I would make back in that case because

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Speaker 2: that's exactly right. A flood can damage a piece of paper,

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Speaker 2: you can burn it, you can rip it up. There's

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Speaker 2: a little bit more security when it's on the Blockchain

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Speaker 2: because

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Speaker 2: it's something that you can prove at any time belongs

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Speaker 2: to you. Everybody can see it on a public Blockchain.

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Speaker 2: You're not the only person who can see that at

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Speaker 2: any given time.

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Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. My name is Christina and I'm Adrienne and

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Speaker 1: we're the host of a podcast called work it if

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Speaker 1: you never heard of it. Well, it's a good time

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Speaker 1: to tap in, in the last 20 episodes. We've discussed

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Speaker 1: topics like how to negotiate for a salary increase or

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Speaker 1: how to get along with younger colleagues who have different

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Speaker 1: values from you, which

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Speaker 1: incidentally is our top performing episode. If what consumes your

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Speaker 1: life and you want some perspective on issues like management stress,

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Speaker 1: even office romance. This podcast should be on your list.

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Speaker 1: A new episode drops every Monday. Catch us on the

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Speaker 1: Sienna app or wherever you get your podcast

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Speaker 1: looking at the landscape. Now, are there some N F

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Speaker 1: T s that are, I guess safer for the lack

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Speaker 1: of a better word than others? Like some are less

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Speaker 1: speculative than others? Just out of curiosity? You

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Speaker 2: know, that's a good question.

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Speaker 2: I think the N F T s that are less

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Speaker 2: speculative are the ones that have utility so you can

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Speaker 2: buy N F T s. Beyond just buying them to collect,

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Speaker 2: you can buy them as tickets to concerts, you can

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Speaker 2: buy them to watch a TV show. There's a TV

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Speaker 2: show out there that I think stars Mila Kunis that

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Speaker 2: you need to buy an N F T to be

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Speaker 2: able to watch and so they can serve as verification

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Speaker 2: in that sense or

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Speaker 2: they can serve as a ticket to a

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Speaker 1: concert. Alright. Okay. Should I only go for N F

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Speaker 1: T s that are backed by a bank or a

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Speaker 1: known institution? I'll throw a

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Speaker 2: question back at you. Should you only buy stocks and

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Speaker 2: bonds that are backed by, you know, trusted entities? I

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Speaker 2: would say yes. Yeah, I think people should answer both

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Speaker 2: of those questions in similar ways. Okay.

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Speaker 1: That's a good way of putting it. So the NFC market,

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Speaker 1: It's exciting for investors because you know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of amazing growth potential, at least that's what's been reported, right?

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Speaker 1: So some reports estimate a compound annual growth rate of 35%

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Speaker 1: per year. That's huge compared to other investment classes such

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Speaker 1: as stocks or property. Obviously, given the caveats that we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about when it comes to NFTS as an investment.

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Speaker 1: Do you think though

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Speaker 1: that we can still consider N F T s as

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Speaker 1: part of an average investorsportfolios something my husband would call

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Speaker 1: play money.

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Speaker 1: Is it worth looking into to put it in my portfolio?

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Speaker 2: You know, digital assets in general are in their early days.

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Speaker 2: Will there be more digital assets moving forward? How do

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Speaker 2: we link physical value to these digital assets? These are

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Speaker 2: all questions and proving ownership of those digital assets has

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Speaker 2: been a challenge and we really do believe there's a

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Speaker 2: future for N F T s,

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Speaker 2: but we don't know how big or small that future

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Speaker 2: is going to be yet. And whether to consider that

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Speaker 2: a standard part of an investment portfolio, I'm not totally

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Speaker 2: sure at this point in time given how early we are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very important question to ask, especially if

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Speaker 1: you want to look at it in terms of an investment.

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Speaker 1: It depends on your investment personality, right? Whether you're an

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Speaker 1: earlier doctor or you're a follower, you want to see

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Speaker 1: what happens. It really just does depend on what kind

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Speaker 1: of risk appetite you have as an

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Speaker 1: investor. Right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think we think about the way people

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Speaker 2: do due diligence on traditional investments. It's important to do

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Speaker 2: that even when you're looking at an N F T

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Speaker 2: and N F T project, even if you're just doing

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Speaker 2: it personally. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely. Okay. So N F T s we established they

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Speaker 1: are largely paid with Cryptocurrency like Ethereum. So their value

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Speaker 1: is then tied to crypto, which we know is very

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Speaker 1: volatile right now. Should your average

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Speaker 1: retail investors even be looking at N F T s

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Speaker 1: as an investment? So I know a lot of younger

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Speaker 1: people are turning to retail investment, a lot of it's

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Speaker 1: very accessible now and they're jumping on this N F

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Speaker 1: T bandwagon. What's your

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Speaker 2: take? So me personally, I would say it has become

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Speaker 2: more of a speculative asset when we're talking about our

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Speaker 2: N F T s and the types of N F

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Speaker 2: T s that you would buy at open sea that

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Speaker 2: are attached to pegs, right?

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Speaker 2: Their digital assets in their early days, we believe that

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Speaker 2: there is a future in front of t is how

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Speaker 2: big that future is. We're not totally sure what their

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Speaker 2: use cases will be that move into the mainstream. We're

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Speaker 2: not totally sure will there be more digital assets moving forward?

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Speaker 2: Are we going to live our lives increasingly in a

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Speaker 2: digital space? These are all questions to consider and like

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Speaker 2: Ice

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Speaker 2: said, really to do your research and due diligence and

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Speaker 2: see the utility of what you're buying and whether it's

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Speaker 2: something that you're buying for yourself personally to showcase an

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Speaker 2: aspect of your personality in your digital space or is

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Speaker 2: it purely an investment in which case really look at it?

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Speaker 2: Like you would look at any other investment and do

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Speaker 2: the adequate research, do the due diligence behind it. So

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Speaker 2: if

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Speaker 1: I already own an N F T, should I be

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Speaker 1: looking to sell it now or should I hang on

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Speaker 1: to it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. Like I said, not all

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Speaker 2: N F T s are created equal.

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Speaker 1: Have you sold any N F T s in recent

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Speaker 1: times or are you hanging on to all of them? Still?

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Speaker 2: I honestly could not for the life of me. Tell

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Speaker 2: you which N F T S I have right now

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Speaker 2: and where they are because

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Speaker 1: you bought, just

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Speaker 2: because I've bought, I've bought quite a few.

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Speaker 1: Okay, final advice for our listeners who may be thinking

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Speaker 1: of investing in N F T s or just buying

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Speaker 1: an N F T, please,

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Speaker 2: please do your research only invest in things that you

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Speaker 2: fully understand and really look into the technology behind N

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Speaker 2: F T s because it's so interesting and it is

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Speaker 2: going to be something that is prevalent in our lives

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Speaker 2: beyond just collecting art and be open minded. You never

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Speaker 2: know

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Speaker 2: where it's gonna go.

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Speaker 1: All right. So thanks so much, Sanya for spilling the

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Speaker 1: tea on N F T s giving us a clearer

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Speaker 1: picture on what makes them valuable time. So our N

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Speaker 1: F T is worth it, I guess as with all investments,

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Speaker 1: know your own risk appetite, do your homework. Sanya has

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Speaker 1: emphasized this over and over again, do your research before

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Speaker 1: committing and thank you to you, our listener.

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Speaker 1: If you've enjoyed this episode of Money Talks as more

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Speaker 1: content for you to enjoy, simply follow us on Apple

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Speaker 1: Leave a review. We want to know what you think

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Speaker 1: if you have feedback to write to us at Sienna

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Speaker 1: podcasts at mediacorp dot com dot SG. The team behind

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Speaker 1: Money Talks is Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan Christina Robert, and

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrea