1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:02,430 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:04,190 --> 00:00:08,158 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back to regular programming of CNAs work. It, 3 00:00:08,170 --> 00:00:11,109 Speaker 1: it's me Christina and it's Adrian here. I hope you 4 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,689 Speaker 1: had a chance to listen to our special series on 5 00:00:13,699 --> 00:00:18,049 Speaker 1: how neurodivergent people work in an office setting. Yeah, so 6 00:00:18,059 --> 00:00:21,549 Speaker 1: that was hosted by my colleague, Grace. And if you 7 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:25,149 Speaker 1: have comments, please share with us on Spotify or Apple, 8 00:00:25,159 --> 00:00:27,719 Speaker 1: we read all the comments and it's really encouraging for 9 00:00:27,729 --> 00:00:31,879 Speaker 1: the team like this one from Amanda Gl, I suppose, 10 00:00:31,889 --> 00:00:33,819 Speaker 1: Amanda girl who said 11 00:00:33,889 --> 00:00:36,819 Speaker 1: on an episode on whether you should disclose your company 12 00:00:36,830 --> 00:00:40,500 Speaker 1: if you have autism. She said love the episode learned 13 00:00:40,509 --> 00:00:43,459 Speaker 1: a lot through the podcast and looking forward to hear 14 00:00:43,470 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: more of such views. Another listener said, refreshing, very relevant 15 00:00:48,689 --> 00:00:52,139 Speaker 1: in today's workplace. So we wanted to take some time 16 00:00:52,150 --> 00:00:55,150 Speaker 1: to thank you for leaving us a comment. We really 17 00:00:55,159 --> 00:00:58,599 Speaker 1: appreciate them. Ok, Adrian, today, we're going to talk about 18 00:00:58,610 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: a slightly tricky subject, workplace discrimination. 19 00:01:03,830 --> 00:01:05,980 Speaker 1: Ok. I have to say that in all the years 20 00:01:05,989 --> 00:01:10,980 Speaker 1: of my working, I didn't feel discriminated in any way, 21 00:01:11,190 --> 00:01:14,150 Speaker 1: whether it was for my race or for my age 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,239 Speaker 1: or for my gender. In fact, I came back to 23 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:20,449 Speaker 1: the CN A newsroom and I was hardly a spring chicken. 24 00:01:22,010 --> 00:01:25,540 Speaker 1: So kudos to my boss for not looking at my 25 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:28,180 Speaker 1: age and thinking, uh can she do this job or not? 26 00:01:28,190 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: It's such a hip and happening new product. What about you? 27 00:01:32,470 --> 00:01:37,309 Speaker 1: Have you experienced any discrimination whatsoever or what you thought 28 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,180 Speaker 1: was discrimination? And in a work setting, fortunately, I never 29 00:01:41,190 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: had that chance to be discriminated against. But because I 30 00:01:45,525 --> 00:01:48,565 Speaker 1: started a recruitment business, this was close to 19 years ago. 31 00:01:48,584 --> 00:01:50,925 Speaker 1: And you can imagine 19 years back, it was quite 32 00:01:50,934 --> 00:01:54,014 Speaker 1: wild West. People were very blatant about who they want 33 00:01:54,025 --> 00:01:56,855 Speaker 1: to discriminate against as if it's somewhat of a competition 34 00:01:56,864 --> 00:02:00,025 Speaker 1: to see who can discriminate more. I've heard stories and 35 00:02:00,035 --> 00:02:03,074 Speaker 1: this was directly from our clients back then about, oh, 36 00:02:03,114 --> 00:02:05,535 Speaker 1: I do not want women because they will give birth 37 00:02:05,544 --> 00:02:07,934 Speaker 1: disruptive and all that. Oh, I also do not want 38 00:02:07,944 --> 00:02:08,955 Speaker 1: Singaporean men because 39 00:02:09,038 --> 00:02:10,860 Speaker 1: to go back to the Reserves. So when you work 40 00:02:10,869 --> 00:02:14,039 Speaker 1: down the list, you are only left with Chinese Malaysian 41 00:02:14,050 --> 00:02:16,779 Speaker 1: who became Singapore pr not a long list to begin. 42 00:02:16,820 --> 00:02:19,668 Speaker 1: And I remember looking at ads. This was 20 years 43 00:02:19,679 --> 00:02:22,529 Speaker 1: ago when we were looking for part time jobs and 44 00:02:22,538 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: they would say, oh, only Chinese speaking needed or something 45 00:02:25,970 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: like that. So obviously, I don't speak Chinese, but I 46 00:02:27,970 --> 00:02:31,130 Speaker 1: didn't think of it as discrimination. You know, in those days, 47 00:02:31,139 --> 00:02:32,210 Speaker 1: we just assumed 48 00:02:32,554 --> 00:02:35,514 Speaker 1: just assume there is some reason we never questioned it. Right. 49 00:02:35,524 --> 00:02:37,244 Speaker 1: We just moved on with life and we got on 50 00:02:37,255 --> 00:02:40,494 Speaker 1: with our jobs. Yeah. But today 20 years later in 51 00:02:40,505 --> 00:02:44,945 Speaker 1: 2023 things are really very different. Right? So that's what 52 00:02:44,955 --> 00:02:46,755 Speaker 1: we want to talk about. And with us in the 53 00:02:46,764 --> 00:02:51,604 Speaker 1: studio is Faith Lee General Manager at the Tripartite Alliance 54 00:02:51,615 --> 00:02:55,985 Speaker 1: for fair and progressive employment practices or for short, 55 00:02:56,479 --> 00:03:00,989 Speaker 1: a tripartite committee which was convened in July 2021 plays 56 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: an important role in setting out some guidelines on how 57 00:03:04,089 --> 00:03:08,038 Speaker 1: employers should behave when it comes to workplace practices. And 58 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:10,649 Speaker 1: just to give a quick background, the trip committee came 59 00:03:10,660 --> 00:03:13,380 Speaker 1: up with a list of recommendations on how to protect 60 00:03:13,389 --> 00:03:18,538 Speaker 1: workers against workplace discrimination. The government has accepted the 22 items. 61 00:03:18,550 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: And next year, the new workplace 62 00:03:20,496 --> 00:03:24,595 Speaker 1: fairness legislation will come into effect. Welcome Faith. Thank you 63 00:03:24,606 --> 00:03:27,335 Speaker 1: for coming on to the show. Hi, Christina. Hi, Adrian. 64 00:03:27,345 --> 00:03:29,644 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Very happy to be here. We 65 00:03:29,656 --> 00:03:32,055 Speaker 1: can start with her telling us your own experience. I'm 66 00:03:32,065 --> 00:03:34,835 Speaker 1: sure you didn't have any negative experience. Ok. I I 67 00:03:34,845 --> 00:03:39,305 Speaker 1: think that the journey for promoting and championing for workplace 68 00:03:39,315 --> 00:03:42,305 Speaker 1: fairness actually started around the time that you mentioned right 69 00:03:42,315 --> 00:03:44,466 Speaker 1: about 20 years ago. And actually the 70 00:03:44,582 --> 00:03:48,311 Speaker 1: predecessor of what we know today as the tripartite guidelines 71 00:03:48,322 --> 00:03:52,841 Speaker 1: for fair employment practices or TGFEP, also a mouthful um 72 00:03:53,061 --> 00:03:58,682 Speaker 1: started as a guideline on nondiscriminatory job advertisements. So that's 73 00:03:58,692 --> 00:04:01,852 Speaker 1: quite interesting as to how far we have come when 74 00:04:01,861 --> 00:04:04,772 Speaker 1: now the guidelines covers all aspects. So in those days, 75 00:04:04,781 --> 00:04:08,552 Speaker 1: a yes, it was really just about ads. And 76 00:04:08,667 --> 00:04:11,988 Speaker 1: I think now the guidelines have expanded and 20 years later, 77 00:04:12,018 --> 00:04:14,667 Speaker 1: we are at this stage where the tripartite committee, which 78 00:04:14,677 --> 00:04:18,118 Speaker 1: actually was chaired by three very important people, Minister for manpower, 79 00:04:19,407 --> 00:04:24,678 Speaker 1: President Robert, as well as the NUC Mr, they chaired 80 00:04:24,687 --> 00:04:27,817 Speaker 1: the committee which then came up with the the recommendations 81 00:04:27,827 --> 00:04:30,238 Speaker 1: that you see today in the report for me, I've 82 00:04:30,247 --> 00:04:32,657 Speaker 1: also been like Chris, I've had 83 00:04:32,753 --> 00:04:36,213 Speaker 1: rather smooth journey and maybe that is a reflection of 84 00:04:36,223 --> 00:04:41,063 Speaker 1: actually the state of affairs in Singapore. Most employers are fair. 85 00:04:41,074 --> 00:04:44,962 Speaker 1: They want to be fair. This move really is also 86 00:04:44,973 --> 00:04:48,634 Speaker 1: to address those errant employers, the ones that are truly 87 00:04:48,644 --> 00:04:52,652 Speaker 1: discriminatory and we want to take firm action against them. Yeah. 88 00:04:52,764 --> 00:04:55,454 Speaker 1: And I think the fairness part is improving because going 89 00:04:55,463 --> 00:04:56,783 Speaker 1: by reports, 90 00:04:56,988 --> 00:05:00,678 Speaker 1: the proportion of job seekers reported that they experienced discrimination 91 00:05:00,690 --> 00:05:03,399 Speaker 1: fell from 43% in 2018 92 00:05:03,678 --> 00:05:08,290 Speaker 1: to 25% in 2021. So it's definitely a good improvement. 93 00:05:08,299 --> 00:05:10,190 Speaker 1: But of course, there are still some issues in this 94 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,730 Speaker 1: area to be concerned about. What, what do you think 95 00:05:12,738 --> 00:05:16,019 Speaker 1: those would be in this context? What has changed from 96 00:05:16,029 --> 00:05:19,409 Speaker 1: the time we were seeing job ads to now, I'm 97 00:05:19,420 --> 00:05:22,019 Speaker 1: sure the population has changed over the past years. We 98 00:05:22,029 --> 00:05:25,368 Speaker 1: have also been educating on the tripartite guidelines are about 99 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:27,630 Speaker 1: what they stand for, what employers should, 100 00:05:27,726 --> 00:05:30,695 Speaker 1: they should not do as well as enforcing against those 101 00:05:30,707 --> 00:05:32,856 Speaker 1: who are errant employers. So I think for, for this 102 00:05:32,867 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 1: upcoming legislation, which the tripartite committee has recommended and the 103 00:05:36,927 --> 00:05:40,467 Speaker 1: government has accepted a few things we see as quite 104 00:05:40,476 --> 00:05:44,217 Speaker 1: key one is that yes, the tripartite guidelines has been around, 105 00:05:44,226 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 1: but this really sends a stronger signal that we don't 106 00:05:47,367 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: stand for a workplace discrimination of any form. In Singapore. 107 00:05:51,773 --> 00:05:55,134 Speaker 1: The workplace fairness legislation will cover some of the more 108 00:05:55,144 --> 00:05:59,113 Speaker 1: commonly seen kinds of workplace discrimination that and mom has 109 00:05:59,123 --> 00:06:06,134 Speaker 1: handled so age nationality, sex, which includes caregiving responsibilities, pregnancy, 110 00:06:06,144 --> 00:06:11,884 Speaker 1: marital status, race, race and religion and language as well 111 00:06:11,894 --> 00:06:15,544 Speaker 1: as a disability and mental health. So these all cover 112 00:06:15,553 --> 00:06:15,723 Speaker 1: about 113 00:06:15,821 --> 00:06:19,601 Speaker 1: 95% of all the types of workplace discrimination cases that 114 00:06:19,610 --> 00:06:22,651 Speaker 1: we see. And so it's a start and the legislation 115 00:06:22,661 --> 00:06:25,859 Speaker 1: will be scoped for that. Uh Also the tripartite guidelines 116 00:06:25,871 --> 00:06:28,830 Speaker 1: are not going away. It's really going to be working 117 00:06:28,841 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: in concert together with the new legislation so that all 118 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:36,161 Speaker 1: forms of workplace discrimination at all stages of employment will 119 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:38,901 Speaker 1: be covered. Actually, I was looking at the breakdown according 120 00:06:38,911 --> 00:06:39,811 Speaker 1: to the data, 121 00:06:40,019 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: mom and received something like 328 complaints. First off, that 122 00:06:45,329 --> 00:06:49,059 Speaker 1: sounds like quite a small number, but among that, the 123 00:06:49,070 --> 00:06:54,869 Speaker 1: majority were discrimination based on nationality and then followed by age. 124 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:58,500 Speaker 1: So these two, I think perhaps the significant shifts we've 125 00:06:58,510 --> 00:06:59,049 Speaker 1: seen 126 00:06:59,309 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: over the years. Right. Yeah, I, I think for us 127 00:07:02,850 --> 00:07:05,959 Speaker 1: as we remain an open economy, we also want to 128 00:07:05,970 --> 00:07:10,079 Speaker 1: make sure that locals get access and opportunities to be 129 00:07:10,089 --> 00:07:14,049 Speaker 1: fairly considered for jobs and job opportunities. Then as we 130 00:07:14,059 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 1: are aging, workforce, aging population, I think this whole issue 131 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: about age discrimination comes to the fore. It also comes 132 00:07:22,209 --> 00:07:25,739 Speaker 1: to the fore because as an aging population, more people 133 00:07:25,750 --> 00:07:26,540 Speaker 1: have caregiving 134 00:07:26,609 --> 00:07:29,929 Speaker 1: responsibility. So not just caring for the younger Children, but 135 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:32,589 Speaker 1: really caring for the elderly. And so that that is 136 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,820 Speaker 1: the whole part about caregiving responsibilities that legislation also covers. 137 00:07:36,829 --> 00:07:40,709 Speaker 1: So really addressing what are the I guess the more 138 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:47,420 Speaker 1: pertinent social economic priorities that we are facing reflecting the changes? Right. Yeah. Yeah. 139 00:07:47,429 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: What are some of the common experiences? Yeah. OK. This 140 00:07:51,929 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: is the juicy part, right? 141 00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:57,230 Speaker 1: So maybe I start with age, we have seen cases 142 00:07:57,239 --> 00:08:01,579 Speaker 1: where for example, it's enrichment center, they are running children's 143 00:08:01,589 --> 00:08:07,260 Speaker 1: workshops and a lady applies and through the short listing 144 00:08:07,269 --> 00:08:09,339 Speaker 1: and through the last thing with hr they say, you 145 00:08:09,350 --> 00:08:13,190 Speaker 1: know what's your age? And she says 50 right? And 146 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,660 Speaker 1: then the reply is you don't meet our internal criteria 147 00:08:16,670 --> 00:08:19,519 Speaker 1: of like less than 35 because we need people who 148 00:08:19,529 --> 00:08:22,470 Speaker 1: are young and energetic so that they can manage the 149 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,929 Speaker 1: Children and bring like 150 00:08:24,549 --> 00:08:27,450 Speaker 1: energy to the classroom. And so these are cases that 151 00:08:27,459 --> 00:08:29,769 Speaker 1: we do see there are also those that when it 152 00:08:29,779 --> 00:08:32,478 Speaker 1: comes to language. So just now you said about Chinese speaking, 153 00:08:32,929 --> 00:08:38,339 Speaker 1: is it wrong to put Chinese speaking required? It depends, right. 154 00:08:38,409 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: So if the role requires someone to really be proficient 155 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: in Chinese or or Malay, then actually it's not wrong. 156 00:08:46,890 --> 00:08:49,989 Speaker 1: I think the best thing is to actually include the 157 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:50,500 Speaker 1: reason 158 00:08:50,590 --> 00:08:52,659 Speaker 1: why you need or at least make it clear in 159 00:08:52,669 --> 00:08:57,549 Speaker 1: the job advertisement, why Chinese language proficiency is say you 160 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,890 Speaker 1: are selling products to let's say China or you are 161 00:09:00,900 --> 00:09:06,250 Speaker 1: lias with clients. Yes. And the technical requirements, operational requirements 162 00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:09,340 Speaker 1: are all done in Mandarin. These are things that can 163 00:09:09,349 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: be reflected in the job. And so it makes it 164 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:14,669 Speaker 1: quite clear even to the job applicants that Mandarin or 165 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,539 Speaker 1: Chinese is a requirement 166 00:09:16,630 --> 00:09:19,729 Speaker 1: for the job and then they don't come and report 167 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:25,479 Speaker 1: to one of my very early job to speak with 168 00:09:25,489 --> 00:09:29,049 Speaker 1: people in Hong Kong. So obviously and speak with people 169 00:09:29,059 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: in Taiwan and then Mandarin. So there has to be 170 00:09:31,570 --> 00:09:34,329 Speaker 1: a reason behind and actually it's not to say that 171 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:38,770 Speaker 1: only Chinese can speak Chinese. Right. Ah Right. Right. Right. 172 00:09:38,929 --> 00:09:41,969 Speaker 1: So you don't just say that Chinese, yes, 173 00:09:42,669 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: language skills and and you can be a Chinese and 174 00:09:46,890 --> 00:09:50,650 Speaker 1: like not not speak good Chinese, which is many of 175 00:09:50,729 --> 00:09:53,179 Speaker 1: us nationality thing is also interesting. I know it's a 176 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:57,150 Speaker 1: bit sensitive but we've had cases of you're right. Singapore 177 00:09:57,159 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: is an open economy. You have people from all over 178 00:10:00,010 --> 00:10:02,630 Speaker 1: the world coming here to set up businesses and they 179 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,159 Speaker 1: might be more comfortable people from their own nationalities. So 180 00:10:06,169 --> 00:10:07,919 Speaker 1: how does it look like on the ground when it's 181 00:10:07,929 --> 00:10:08,619 Speaker 1: very clear 182 00:10:08,710 --> 00:10:13,299 Speaker 1: that it's discrimination? So in some cases, it could be that, 183 00:10:13,309 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: uh even without considering the locals who may have applied 184 00:10:16,969 --> 00:10:20,809 Speaker 1: to like my career's future locals who may actually meet 185 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:25,150 Speaker 1: all your requirements, uh, firms then offer the job to 186 00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: someone of another nationality. It could be a higher your 187 00:10:29,090 --> 00:10:32,270 Speaker 1: own kind type of approach. And you just bring in 188 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,619 Speaker 1: people who I guess have that cultural 189 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,130 Speaker 1: with you. And that could be cases where actually there's preselection, 190 00:10:39,140 --> 00:10:42,809 Speaker 1: locals are not fairly considered, even though they may actually 191 00:10:42,820 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: meet all the criteria for the job. And actually that 192 00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:49,510 Speaker 1: short changes the company in the long run in the end, 193 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,890 Speaker 1: you are limiting your pool of talent and actually it 194 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: could be bigger. And if you are considered, maybe you 195 00:10:55,450 --> 00:10:58,210 Speaker 1: bring in someone who has a different view, a diverse 196 00:10:58,219 --> 00:11:00,699 Speaker 1: view or knows the local context a bit better, 197 00:11:00,969 --> 00:11:03,619 Speaker 1: you lose out on that talent and in an economy 198 00:11:03,630 --> 00:11:08,419 Speaker 1: that is a tight labor market, which is, yeah, far tighter. 199 00:11:08,429 --> 00:11:10,659 Speaker 1: The war on talent is real and you really lose 200 00:11:10,669 --> 00:11:14,859 Speaker 1: out on people that could have contributed to your business, 201 00:11:14,869 --> 00:11:20,179 Speaker 1: your competitive, but also beyond just the immediate consequence, right. 202 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:23,789 Speaker 1: There's also this feeling of unfairness on the part of 203 00:11:23,799 --> 00:11:26,130 Speaker 1: somebody who didn't get picked, right? If I were, that 204 00:11:26,140 --> 00:11:27,020 Speaker 1: candidate 205 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: are perfectly qualified for the job. So you can start 206 00:11:30,409 --> 00:11:35,900 Speaker 1: feeling resentment and then you start blaming everybody, which is 207 00:11:35,909 --> 00:11:40,070 Speaker 1: why when companies go through the whole selection process, interview process, 208 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,369 Speaker 1: we always say, hey, keep a record of the interview 209 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:46,848 Speaker 1: of your assessment of the candidates that came through because 210 00:11:46,859 --> 00:11:50,890 Speaker 1: ultimately in the end, it's a company's decision on who 211 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:53,669 Speaker 1: they hire. But they need to show that in the 212 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:54,729 Speaker 1: end it was the 213 00:11:54,989 --> 00:11:57,968 Speaker 1: candidate that best met business needs. And if you don't 214 00:11:57,979 --> 00:12:01,650 Speaker 1: have a record and everyone has left and, and there's 215 00:12:01,659 --> 00:12:04,179 Speaker 1: a complaint that comes, there's nothing that you can show 216 00:12:04,190 --> 00:12:07,090 Speaker 1: to say that, hey, my hiring process was fair. My 217 00:12:07,099 --> 00:12:11,260 Speaker 1: interview process was fair. I actually assessed people based on 218 00:12:11,270 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: their ability to do the job. In other words, keep 219 00:12:14,530 --> 00:12:18,700 Speaker 1: the receipts right in the trip guidelines, we say keep 220 00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:20,950 Speaker 1: the receipts for a year. Another follow up that I 221 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,940 Speaker 1: wanted to ask an agent, you can chime in. 222 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,809 Speaker 1: You see, ah, when somebody discriminates against something like nationality 223 00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:32,590 Speaker 1: or gender or age, that's kind of easy to spot. 224 00:12:33,070 --> 00:12:36,478 Speaker 1: It's quite clear in a way. Now, this other thing 225 00:12:36,489 --> 00:12:40,469 Speaker 1: about mental health is perhaps not so straightforward, it could 226 00:12:40,479 --> 00:12:43,530 Speaker 1: be quite legitimate. And I'm just playing the devil's advocate 227 00:12:43,539 --> 00:12:47,770 Speaker 1: here that the employer says, look, you've got a history 228 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:49,789 Speaker 1: of having treatment for mental health 229 00:12:50,130 --> 00:12:53,890 Speaker 1: and I'm worried that this job is stressful. The demands 230 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:56,179 Speaker 1: are quite high and I'm not sure. 231 00:12:56,570 --> 00:12:59,069 Speaker 1: So what I'm trying to say is that this is 232 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,989 Speaker 1: a kind of gray area. Do you think that there's 233 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,380 Speaker 1: a gray area or in your mind? It's quite clear. 234 00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:07,340 Speaker 1: I think in the end, what it boils down to 235 00:13:07,349 --> 00:13:09,858 Speaker 1: is who is the best person to do the job? 236 00:13:09,869 --> 00:13:13,789 Speaker 1: And was the hiring done in a fair manner? Ok. Right. 237 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: So if, for example, the job is high stress, yes, 238 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:21,099 Speaker 1: it's probably not for the employer to assume that individuals 239 00:13:21,109 --> 00:13:23,359 Speaker 1: are not able to take the high stress. So for example, 240 00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: mothers have 241 00:13:24,502 --> 00:13:28,401 Speaker 1: how many Children therefore cannot take stress or caregiving. She 242 00:13:28,471 --> 00:13:31,302 Speaker 1: has a lot of Children, she probably taking a lot 243 00:13:31,351 --> 00:13:35,910 Speaker 1: of stress. Yeah. So, so I think it's about articulating 244 00:13:35,921 --> 00:13:40,531 Speaker 1: the demands of the job. Allow the applicants to then respond. 245 00:13:40,541 --> 00:13:43,802 Speaker 1: For example, if this job is a urgent project that 246 00:13:43,812 --> 00:13:47,072 Speaker 1: needs you to be around and be like fully committed 247 00:13:47,081 --> 00:13:49,872 Speaker 1: over the next year, over the next six months, make 248 00:13:49,881 --> 00:13:52,331 Speaker 1: that clear upfront and then the applicant can 249 00:13:52,434 --> 00:13:55,853 Speaker 1: respond and share things that these are things that could 250 00:13:55,864 --> 00:13:58,723 Speaker 1: be a consideration. But I feel like I can, I 251 00:13:58,734 --> 00:14:03,643 Speaker 1: have enough support. I'm on medication and make those explanations 252 00:14:03,653 --> 00:14:09,283 Speaker 1: and clarifications at that point. Right. And I don't. Yeah. 253 00:14:09,374 --> 00:14:11,573 Speaker 1: So it comes down to the same guiding principle, whether 254 00:14:11,583 --> 00:14:15,744 Speaker 1: it is about your age, your race, your gender, et cetera. Ultimately, 255 00:14:15,754 --> 00:14:19,614 Speaker 1: if you can deliver the rest actually are all inconsequential. Yes. 256 00:14:19,653 --> 00:14:20,263 Speaker 1: And also 257 00:14:20,366 --> 00:14:23,216 Speaker 1: after you've said it, and I know some people say 258 00:14:23,226 --> 00:14:25,625 Speaker 1: yes to everything before they get the job because they 259 00:14:25,635 --> 00:14:28,786 Speaker 1: want the job. Right. But then after, when you come 260 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:32,065 Speaker 1: in and you show that you maybe could not. Yes. 261 00:14:32,195 --> 00:14:35,556 Speaker 1: Then the employer has every right to say yes, it 262 00:14:35,616 --> 00:14:38,976 Speaker 1: didn't work out. Yes. And these were the job expectations, 263 00:14:38,986 --> 00:14:41,955 Speaker 1: they were laid out clearly, you are not meeting them 264 00:14:41,966 --> 00:14:44,976 Speaker 1: and so that conversation can then happen. Right. So, I 265 00:14:44,986 --> 00:14:47,556 Speaker 1: think really this whole thing about one part of the 266 00:14:47,565 --> 00:14:48,195 Speaker 1: workplace fairness 267 00:14:48,297 --> 00:14:51,437 Speaker 1: legislation that is also going to put in place is 268 00:14:51,447 --> 00:14:57,708 Speaker 1: this whole requirement for grievance handling that. Ah That's something 269 00:14:57,718 --> 00:15:01,478 Speaker 1: that we feel is quite important. It allows for the 270 00:15:01,487 --> 00:15:06,056 Speaker 1: employer to have that channel where employees so in employment type, right, 271 00:15:06,067 --> 00:15:08,557 Speaker 1: this is not no longer the job applicant type. This 272 00:15:08,567 --> 00:15:11,547 Speaker 1: is those that are in employment already for them to 273 00:15:11,557 --> 00:15:16,168 Speaker 1: raise grievances concerns with regards to, for example, workplace discrimination 274 00:15:16,359 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: and have those issues looked into in a fair manner 275 00:15:20,010 --> 00:15:24,739 Speaker 1: without escalating it when there's no need to sometimes grievances 276 00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:28,219 Speaker 1: reports that come to tend to be because there might 277 00:15:28,229 --> 00:15:33,559 Speaker 1: have been miscommunication on there's not enough clarity on expectations 278 00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:38,369 Speaker 1: and perceptions having this grievance handling channel as a requirement 279 00:15:38,815 --> 00:15:42,354 Speaker 1: really provides that platform for these to be addressed at 280 00:15:42,364 --> 00:15:47,104 Speaker 1: the lowest possible level without escalating and escalating. Doesn't just mean, 281 00:15:47,114 --> 00:15:49,625 Speaker 1: you know, I threaten to come to, I will come 282 00:15:49,635 --> 00:15:52,934 Speaker 1: to to report but really on social media as well, right? 283 00:15:52,945 --> 00:15:56,065 Speaker 1: And then you have a reputational issue and there are 284 00:15:56,075 --> 00:15:58,594 Speaker 1: more things to address LA for the employers. So really 285 00:15:58,604 --> 00:16:01,205 Speaker 1: this addition of this requirement, 286 00:16:06,020 --> 00:16:09,229 Speaker 2: are you looking for ways to make your money work harder, 287 00:16:09,260 --> 00:16:14,460 Speaker 2: tips on saving investing or retiring early perhaps, or advice 288 00:16:14,469 --> 00:16:17,989 Speaker 2: on big ticket decisions like buying a house or owning 289 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,849 Speaker 2: a car. I'm Andrea. He host of CN A's Top 290 00:16:21,859 --> 00:16:25,070 Speaker 2: personal finance podcast, money talks. And the, 291 00:16:25,164 --> 00:16:27,775 Speaker 2: these are some of the things we find out for 292 00:16:27,784 --> 00:16:31,054 Speaker 2: you each week. I get a guest to share personal 293 00:16:31,065 --> 00:16:34,914 Speaker 2: stories and answer burning questions that help you make sense 294 00:16:34,924 --> 00:16:38,635 Speaker 2: of the latest financial trends. Go check out the complete 295 00:16:38,645 --> 00:16:42,825 Speaker 2: money talks playlist on the CN A app, Spotify, Google 296 00:16:42,835 --> 00:16:44,234 Speaker 2: or Apple podcasts. 297 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: There will be instances and I would imagine if I 298 00:16:52,650 --> 00:16:55,429 Speaker 1: feel that there might be a bit of discrimination, I 299 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,130 Speaker 1: would ask myself, am I too sensitive? Am I overreacting? 300 00:16:59,140 --> 00:17:02,309 Speaker 1: And how do you make sure that this is actually 301 00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: an overreaction or is it true? Blue discrimination? Yeah. More 302 00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:09,209 Speaker 1: clarity is always useful, which is why I think in 303 00:17:09,219 --> 00:17:13,030 Speaker 1: the report that came out last month, there were examples 304 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,949 Speaker 1: of what could be considered discrimination 305 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,150 Speaker 1: and over time and before the legislation is passed, we 306 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,599 Speaker 1: will look at putting out more examples so that employees 307 00:17:22,609 --> 00:17:26,079 Speaker 1: can also see that. Does this fall into that space? 308 00:17:26,089 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: Is it something that I should raise internally first try 309 00:17:29,530 --> 00:17:32,530 Speaker 1: to get some clarification there? But if it's not addressed 310 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:33,180 Speaker 1: and I still feel 311 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,140 Speaker 1: like this issue has not been resolved. Then I come 312 00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:38,379 Speaker 1: to and, and we are the first part of call 313 00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:41,609 Speaker 1: for employees outside the firm. I know that the key 314 00:17:41,619 --> 00:17:45,209 Speaker 1: point is that mediation is the first step, right? So 315 00:17:45,219 --> 00:17:47,469 Speaker 1: it's not as if I can immediately complain about my 316 00:17:47,479 --> 00:17:52,369 Speaker 1: boss and he will go to jail. Not so serious. 317 00:17:52,770 --> 00:17:57,079 Speaker 1: I'm kidding. It's not that straightforward because simply because discrimination 318 00:17:57,089 --> 00:18:01,290 Speaker 1: itself is actually very complex, right? Like you say, 319 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: you first need to figure out is this legitimate, right? 320 00:18:05,209 --> 00:18:08,270 Speaker 1: So there must be certain steps. So internal processes to 321 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,569 Speaker 1: me looks to be quite important. Some small companies may 322 00:18:11,579 --> 00:18:15,099 Speaker 1: not have that, right? So that's the challenge for you 323 00:18:15,109 --> 00:18:18,188 Speaker 1: guys as well. Yes, it's a challenge and a piece 324 00:18:18,199 --> 00:18:21,938 Speaker 1: of work that I don't think can do alone by ourselves. 325 00:18:21,949 --> 00:18:24,659 Speaker 1: There are so many employers out there in this year. Actually, 326 00:18:24,670 --> 00:18:28,339 Speaker 1: we have been doing this education work for 20 years, right? 327 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: But I think when the the announcement there was going 328 00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:34,819 Speaker 1: to be a workplace fairness legislation came out when the 329 00:18:34,829 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: interim reports came out, we suddenly saw a spike in 330 00:18:38,689 --> 00:18:41,660 Speaker 1: interest in a lot of our workshops and they were 331 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,099 Speaker 1: like fully subscribed. These are employers, right? And we we 332 00:18:45,109 --> 00:18:47,699 Speaker 1: see it as very heartening because at least employers are 333 00:18:47,709 --> 00:18:50,770 Speaker 1: sitting up and taking notes, they feel like now is 334 00:18:50,780 --> 00:18:53,290 Speaker 1: the time to prepare. Not like when the legislation hits 335 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:57,050 Speaker 1: next year. Yeah. So that was heartening. For us 336 00:18:57,907 --> 00:19:00,758 Speaker 1: are right. They are preparing in case we get hit 337 00:19:00,767 --> 00:19:03,477 Speaker 1: by something. How do we react? And, and I think 338 00:19:03,488 --> 00:19:06,287 Speaker 1: to reach out to even smaller firms, I think we 339 00:19:06,297 --> 00:19:09,446 Speaker 1: have to partner with um parties. So we work quite 340 00:19:09,458 --> 00:19:14,227 Speaker 1: closely with the Singapore National Employers Federation. So the Institute 341 00:19:14,238 --> 00:19:17,588 Speaker 1: for HR professionals, they have the whole hr community and 342 00:19:17,598 --> 00:19:20,598 Speaker 1: networks there. Yeah. And also I think as me, which 343 00:19:20,608 --> 00:19:23,447 Speaker 1: is the association for SME S, they would have networks 344 00:19:23,458 --> 00:19:26,858 Speaker 1: into the smaller companies, be more familiar with their needs, 345 00:19:27,255 --> 00:19:30,115 Speaker 1: how they learn or how they implement hr practices, what 346 00:19:30,125 --> 00:19:34,385 Speaker 1: their challenges are and develop content that would suit even 347 00:19:34,395 --> 00:19:37,026 Speaker 1: the SME S or those that are resource strapped. Maybe 348 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:41,796 Speaker 1: it's the, that is the hr Yeah. Right. If he 349 00:19:41,806 --> 00:19:44,985 Speaker 1: is the one being discriminatory, how to complain to him, right? 350 00:19:44,994 --> 00:19:48,566 Speaker 1: Because really outside the firm will continue to be the 351 00:19:48,576 --> 00:19:51,365 Speaker 1: first part of crime for work kind of the safe 352 00:19:51,375 --> 00:19:54,635 Speaker 1: harbor that you can. It's not as if you are 353 00:19:54,645 --> 00:19:56,525 Speaker 1: going to immediately take action 354 00:19:56,604 --> 00:19:59,854 Speaker 1: or whatever. And so you do your own due diligence. Yes, 355 00:19:59,864 --> 00:20:02,812 Speaker 1: we were just talking about this whole whistle blowing thing. Right. 356 00:20:02,823 --> 00:20:04,623 Speaker 1: I don't even know it because I can go and 357 00:20:04,634 --> 00:20:08,173 Speaker 1: find out. But whether there's a whistleblowing policy, like who 358 00:20:08,183 --> 00:20:10,813 Speaker 1: do I call? If I suspect something, I have no 359 00:20:10,823 --> 00:20:13,963 Speaker 1: clue because if I think something is wrong, what do 360 00:20:13,973 --> 00:20:19,854 Speaker 1: I do? I just complain to my colleague lunchtime talk Yeah. So, 361 00:20:19,864 --> 00:20:24,774 Speaker 1: so this is just professionalizing things, right? And formalizing things. 362 00:20:24,784 --> 00:20:25,773 Speaker 1: And when we say 363 00:20:25,952 --> 00:20:28,442 Speaker 1: employs, please have in place a grievance handling. It's not 364 00:20:28,452 --> 00:20:31,021 Speaker 1: having in place and putting in the drawer, right? It's 365 00:20:31,031 --> 00:20:35,161 Speaker 1: really making sure that employees like yourself know where to go, 366 00:20:35,171 --> 00:20:38,011 Speaker 1: what the process will be like if you actually call 367 00:20:38,021 --> 00:20:41,881 Speaker 1: that line to report or whistle blow, right? You have 368 00:20:41,891 --> 00:20:44,842 Speaker 1: some clarity on what will happen next. And also I 369 00:20:44,852 --> 00:20:48,702 Speaker 1: think it's a trust building thing. If an employee steps 370 00:20:48,712 --> 00:20:51,241 Speaker 1: forward to report and we know some people are hesitant 371 00:20:51,251 --> 00:20:55,222 Speaker 1: to even report even internally, right, then get back to them, 372 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: do it in a timely manner. Don't let it like 373 00:20:57,530 --> 00:21:00,699 Speaker 1: drop into some black box that doesn't surface for a 374 00:21:00,709 --> 00:21:03,510 Speaker 1: long time. So as an employee, what are some of 375 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: the prerequisites or stuff you should have on standby before 376 00:21:07,410 --> 00:21:10,530 Speaker 1: making the call? We were talking about evidence from the 377 00:21:10,540 --> 00:21:13,430 Speaker 1: employer side when it comes to interviewing. I would imagine 378 00:21:13,439 --> 00:21:15,650 Speaker 1: there should be some form of evidence that the employee 379 00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:18,379 Speaker 1: should start collating. What could those be? Yeah. So I 380 00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:21,649 Speaker 1: think even today when individuals come to and say I've 381 00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 1: been discriminated against, we asked them a few 382 00:21:24,647 --> 00:21:26,817 Speaker 1: question. Of course, we hear them out, right? We hear 383 00:21:26,958 --> 00:21:30,098 Speaker 1: for example, what was the incident that happened? What was 384 00:21:30,108 --> 00:21:33,027 Speaker 1: it that was asked? Right? That made you feel like 385 00:21:33,167 --> 00:21:36,936 Speaker 1: you were discriminated against based on whatever that characteristic is, 386 00:21:36,946 --> 00:21:40,057 Speaker 1: is it your sex is your age. What was said 387 00:21:40,067 --> 00:21:43,177 Speaker 1: during the interview, what was said during the hiring process? 388 00:21:43,407 --> 00:21:46,868 Speaker 1: And individuals have to articulate that. If they are not 389 00:21:46,878 --> 00:21:49,776 Speaker 1: able to articulate that, then it's very hard for us 390 00:21:49,787 --> 00:21:52,137 Speaker 1: to even follow up and find a basis to follow 391 00:21:52,147 --> 00:21:53,917 Speaker 1: up on. That's what we 392 00:21:54,189 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: need from the employees to come forward. It could be 393 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: that a I have no whatsapp evidence or email evidence, 394 00:22:01,869 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: but I have oral testimonies from someone who may have 395 00:22:04,530 --> 00:22:07,339 Speaker 1: heard it. These are things that can strengthen the case 396 00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:10,469 Speaker 1: and make the case a stronger one and all these 397 00:22:10,479 --> 00:22:10,859 Speaker 1: cases 398 00:22:10,935 --> 00:22:15,103 Speaker 1: in future claims under the workplace fairness legislation, as you 399 00:22:15,114 --> 00:22:20,114 Speaker 1: said just now, Christina will go through compulsory mediation and 400 00:22:20,125 --> 00:22:23,165 Speaker 1: we hope that mediation we see in this landscape as 401 00:22:23,175 --> 00:22:27,224 Speaker 1: quite key in settling disputes in a non litigious way 402 00:22:27,234 --> 00:22:27,385 Speaker 1: lah 403 00:22:27,969 --> 00:22:31,030 Speaker 1: and in a timely manner as well. So we hope 404 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,239 Speaker 1: that most cases when it goes to the tripartite Alliance 405 00:22:34,250 --> 00:22:37,410 Speaker 1: for dispute management, where where the mediation will take place 406 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,859 Speaker 1: will be settled there. And really the claims that go 407 00:22:40,869 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: up further to the employment claims, Tribune, 408 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:46,709 Speaker 1: you know, will be a minority and only as a 409 00:22:46,719 --> 00:22:50,949 Speaker 1: last resort, right? So which begs the question like what 410 00:22:50,959 --> 00:22:55,089 Speaker 1: will change next year if you really need legislation? Can 411 00:22:55,099 --> 00:22:59,079 Speaker 1: you just have all these things in place mediation, people, 412 00:22:59,089 --> 00:23:03,060 Speaker 1: to support companies, people, to support employees? So I think 413 00:23:03,069 --> 00:23:05,829 Speaker 1: some of the things like the requirements for grievance handling 414 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: that's new, you are legally required to have it. 415 00:23:09,140 --> 00:23:12,738 Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing that changes is the range of 416 00:23:12,750 --> 00:23:16,790 Speaker 1: penalties that we can impose on employers or individuals who 417 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,589 Speaker 1: have caused these breaches today when someone, employer has breached 418 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:26,550 Speaker 1: the trip guidelines, the only enforcement lever is I curtail 419 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,290 Speaker 1: your work past. So it's quite blunt and also some 420 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:34,369 Speaker 1: employers may not have foreign workers, some may not have 421 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,069 Speaker 1: not all have 422 00:23:35,172 --> 00:23:38,182 Speaker 1: that seems like a very blunt enforcement tool. Uh Under 423 00:23:38,192 --> 00:23:40,612 Speaker 1: the legislation, I think there will be a more calibrated 424 00:23:40,623 --> 00:23:44,583 Speaker 1: approach as to what kind of levers can be imposed. 425 00:23:44,593 --> 00:23:47,853 Speaker 1: So for example, if it's a minor breach, then maybe 426 00:23:47,863 --> 00:23:51,503 Speaker 1: it's a corrective order, meaning that a correct your policy, right? 427 00:23:51,512 --> 00:23:55,532 Speaker 1: I will work with you to Yeah, it's called rehabilitation 428 00:23:55,542 --> 00:23:58,582 Speaker 1: workshops where they go and learn a bit more about 429 00:23:58,593 --> 00:24:01,123 Speaker 1: what their obligations. And then if it gets 430 00:24:01,205 --> 00:24:05,395 Speaker 1: more serious and the higher the severity, then more admin penalties, 431 00:24:05,406 --> 00:24:08,515 Speaker 1: civil penalties may be imposed. So it's a wider range 432 00:24:08,526 --> 00:24:12,485 Speaker 1: of things that can be imposed on employers that changes. Yeah. 433 00:24:12,494 --> 00:24:14,395 Speaker 1: So it's a bit of both. It's a bit of 434 00:24:14,446 --> 00:24:17,815 Speaker 1: taking to task people who did not want to change 435 00:24:17,826 --> 00:24:21,166 Speaker 1: or resistant to change. So now there's no way out 436 00:24:21,176 --> 00:24:24,475 Speaker 1: of this in a way, the other thing is also 437 00:24:24,484 --> 00:24:27,066 Speaker 1: a protection against retaliation. 438 00:24:27,459 --> 00:24:30,209 Speaker 1: Uh One of the feedback that we have heard, sometimes 439 00:24:30,219 --> 00:24:33,629 Speaker 1: employees not wanting to come forward because they feel like 440 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: after they report they might get victimized, they get harassed 441 00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:40,109 Speaker 1: or subject to other dis amenities when they come forward 442 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,150 Speaker 1: to report. So the trico has also recommended that employees 443 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:44,670 Speaker 1: are not 444 00:24:45,010 --> 00:24:50,729 Speaker 1: allowed to retaliate against individuals who report workplace discrimination or harassment. 445 00:24:50,739 --> 00:24:54,209 Speaker 1: So that gives a bit more assurance to those who 446 00:24:54,219 --> 00:24:56,819 Speaker 1: may not come forward to report. Now that there is 447 00:24:56,829 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: that kind of protection as well and what would be 448 00:24:58,770 --> 00:25:02,900 Speaker 1: some form of common retaliation that employees can observe. We 449 00:25:02,910 --> 00:25:06,250 Speaker 1: we haven't seen that many, but I think in the legislation, 450 00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:09,339 Speaker 1: I think there are plans to articulate that more clearly. 451 00:25:09,349 --> 00:25:10,599 Speaker 1: So it could be harassment, 452 00:25:10,859 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: it could be withdrawal of contractual benefits, it could be 453 00:25:14,050 --> 00:25:18,069 Speaker 1: just victimization. So just unjust treatment, my personal view is 454 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:21,310 Speaker 1: that I think people generally are very careful about making 455 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:22,969 Speaker 1: complaints of this nature. 456 00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:26,010 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that changes with young people. I 457 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,938 Speaker 1: think for younger people probably because of how vocal they 458 00:25:28,949 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: are with so many things, especially when things related to 459 00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:35,958 Speaker 1: calling out someone. I think they have a propensity to 460 00:25:35,969 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: do so. In fact, I do think that they may 461 00:25:37,930 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: go out calling it out on every platform that the 462 00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:44,729 Speaker 1: right one. Yeah. 463 00:25:45,530 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. So those challenges will show up. Right. Yes, I 464 00:25:49,010 --> 00:25:51,660 Speaker 1: think those are challenges that we see today as well, right? 465 00:25:51,670 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: There will be cases that are called out in social 466 00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:56,140 Speaker 1: media and then we would wake up in the morning. Oh, no, 467 00:25:56,150 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: there's something on social media that has to do with 468 00:25:58,250 --> 00:26:02,130 Speaker 1: workplace discrimination is here to help. And every case and 469 00:26:02,140 --> 00:26:04,910 Speaker 1: every report is treated very seriously. We look through every 470 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,599 Speaker 1: report 471 00:26:05,819 --> 00:26:09,069 Speaker 1: by coming forward. I think it helps in a few ways. 472 00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:11,709 Speaker 1: One is, of course you get your individual redress for 473 00:26:11,719 --> 00:26:15,550 Speaker 1: the issue that you you faced, right, the unfairness. But second, 474 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:21,010 Speaker 1: also because then works with the employer to improve practices, 475 00:26:21,099 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: get their policies in shape, make sure they are hiring managers, 476 00:26:25,130 --> 00:26:26,989 Speaker 1: line managers are trained, right? 477 00:26:27,883 --> 00:26:32,133 Speaker 1: Votes for fairer and better workplace culture as well. That 478 00:26:32,142 --> 00:26:35,802 Speaker 1: is more sustainable and long term rather than just very 479 00:26:35,811 --> 00:26:39,373 Speaker 1: reactive to one issue. Correct? Yeah, so it's to build 480 00:26:39,383 --> 00:26:42,093 Speaker 1: good practices as someone who has been involved in this 481 00:26:42,103 --> 00:26:44,612 Speaker 1: for quite some time. What are some of the basic 482 00:26:44,623 --> 00:26:48,162 Speaker 1: guiding principles that you believe everyone should abide by on 483 00:26:48,172 --> 00:26:49,311 Speaker 1: the employer side as well, 484 00:26:49,645 --> 00:26:53,806 Speaker 1: on the employee side? Yeah, I think legislation is not 485 00:26:53,816 --> 00:26:57,306 Speaker 1: a panacea, it won't solve the problems of the world. 486 00:26:57,385 --> 00:27:01,426 Speaker 1: It may not stamp out all workplace discrimination. And I 487 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:04,125 Speaker 1: think everyone has a part to play. Of course at 488 00:27:04,135 --> 00:27:08,484 Speaker 1: the hiring manager and the hr manager top management, they 489 00:27:08,505 --> 00:27:11,176 Speaker 1: set the tone for what it means to be a fair, 490 00:27:11,345 --> 00:27:14,696 Speaker 1: respectful workplace with a respectful workplace culture. 491 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: So putting in place the processes come to and learn 492 00:27:18,369 --> 00:27:22,189 Speaker 1: more right about what these processes are, come to our workshops. 493 00:27:22,199 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: That's one colleagues, right? Sometimes discrimination or the feeling that 494 00:27:26,810 --> 00:27:29,379 Speaker 1: they are they are being left out on that unfairness 495 00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:33,189 Speaker 1: and unjust is something that is at the colleagues level. 496 00:27:33,199 --> 00:27:36,449 Speaker 1: So at the colleagues level, also it's about being respectful 497 00:27:36,459 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: and inclusive. Then at the employee side, make use of 498 00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:39,989 Speaker 1: the 499 00:27:40,079 --> 00:27:42,829 Speaker 1: panels that are going to be available and that will 500 00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:46,050 Speaker 1: be required under legislation, right, the grievance handling and all that. 501 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:51,089 Speaker 1: Sometimes by talking it through, through open communication, clarification, things 502 00:27:51,099 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: get resolved doesn't need to escalate so much. But if 503 00:27:55,010 --> 00:27:58,410 Speaker 1: you do find issues, then please of course, come to, 504 00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:03,369 Speaker 1: I think remains that place where employees can get advice 505 00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:05,030 Speaker 1: and assistance. It may not be that 506 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,129 Speaker 1: immediately take action, but we can give options. We can say, hey, 507 00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:12,780 Speaker 1: have you tried the grievance handling? Then they say maybe 508 00:28:12,790 --> 00:28:15,409 Speaker 1: not comfortable, right? Then we can give options as to 509 00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:18,020 Speaker 1: what could be the next steps and then from there, 510 00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:21,550 Speaker 1: we can take the case forward. So I think everyone 511 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,540 Speaker 1: has a part to play from an employee perspective. At 512 00:28:24,550 --> 00:28:27,968 Speaker 1: the very least, I think we need to be informed. 513 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:32,260 Speaker 1: First of all right, go and read and find out 514 00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:34,589 Speaker 1: a bit more. I guess it's human nature 515 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:36,839 Speaker 1: to not find out about things until you need until 516 00:28:36,910 --> 00:28:41,819 Speaker 1: they happen. Right. Yes. Yes. I think this discrimination thing 517 00:28:41,829 --> 00:28:45,180 Speaker 1: has really come a long way since we have seen 518 00:28:45,189 --> 00:28:48,699 Speaker 1: the first of it many decades ago, a lot of progress. 519 00:28:48,709 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: And I'm reminded of marriage counseling actually because sometimes in 520 00:28:53,290 --> 00:28:56,099 Speaker 1: certain instances, you do require a third party to step 521 00:28:56,109 --> 00:28:58,699 Speaker 1: in to try to improve it because sometimes the couples 522 00:28:58,709 --> 00:29:00,859 Speaker 1: just cannot do it on their own. But having said 523 00:29:00,869 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: that I think to what was discussed earlier on some, 524 00:29:03,895 --> 00:29:06,475 Speaker 1: all it needs is just a bit more communication to 525 00:29:06,485 --> 00:29:09,826 Speaker 1: talk things out. And perhaps if you don't require someone 526 00:29:09,836 --> 00:29:12,326 Speaker 1: to come in to help you, that's great. But in 527 00:29:12,336 --> 00:29:15,056 Speaker 1: most instances, perhaps by talking it out, you will be 528 00:29:15,066 --> 00:29:18,104 Speaker 1: able to resolve some of the matters there. And on 529 00:29:18,115 --> 00:29:21,385 Speaker 1: the employer side really reflect on the kind of talent 530 00:29:21,395 --> 00:29:24,725 Speaker 1: pool that we have right now, our production rate of 531 00:29:24,735 --> 00:29:27,836 Speaker 1: new babies not so high. If you continue to discriminate 532 00:29:27,911 --> 00:29:32,121 Speaker 1: against this, against that, you're not gonna have a lot. Yeah. 533 00:29:32,131 --> 00:29:36,151 Speaker 1: Unless you use GP T for everything until then I 534 00:29:36,161 --> 00:29:39,371 Speaker 1: think you just have to be mindful that ultimately, as 535 00:29:39,381 --> 00:29:41,942 Speaker 1: long as work is being done, you're making money. That 536 00:29:41,952 --> 00:29:45,011 Speaker 1: probably should be all that matters. Yeah, I just feel 537 00:29:45,021 --> 00:29:48,911 Speaker 1: that in the workplace setting, discrimination is a very big 538 00:29:48,921 --> 00:29:51,862 Speaker 1: word and by no means very easy to handle. Right? 539 00:29:52,089 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: Speaking from my own perspective, I'm a minority. I'm a woman. 540 00:29:56,890 --> 00:30:02,780 Speaker 1: I'm also a young senior. Now, what letter have you gotten? 541 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 1: The thing is I tick so many of the boxes, right? 542 00:30:05,969 --> 00:30:08,859 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that my experience was different. That's the 543 00:30:08,869 --> 00:30:12,750 Speaker 1: case with everybody. So when I came into the employment 544 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,170 Speaker 1: scenario was very different from now, the challenges for other 545 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:18,949 Speaker 1: people might be very different. Will you be had a 546 00:30:18,959 --> 00:30:22,050 Speaker 1: guest before? Who said that if something bothers you do 547 00:30:22,060 --> 00:30:25,069 Speaker 1: something about it? Right. So it sounds like common sense 548 00:30:25,155 --> 00:30:30,084 Speaker 1: by seek better. But to me, in reality, sometimes seeking 549 00:30:30,094 --> 00:30:33,454 Speaker 1: better is not so simple. Right? You can't just quit 550 00:30:33,464 --> 00:30:36,005 Speaker 1: the job. Yes. You have family to take care of 551 00:30:36,015 --> 00:30:40,125 Speaker 1: a livelihood. It's your livelihood. What I like about, you know, 552 00:30:40,135 --> 00:30:42,765 Speaker 1: the fact that it's going to be legislation is that 553 00:30:42,775 --> 00:30:46,925 Speaker 1: now there is effort and there is interest in protecting 554 00:30:47,204 --> 00:30:50,344 Speaker 1: people who feel that they might have been treated poorly 555 00:30:50,670 --> 00:30:52,550 Speaker 1: and I think we're all the better for it. That's 556 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,569 Speaker 1: my takeaway from talking to faith. Thank you very much. 557 00:30:55,579 --> 00:30:57,709 Speaker 1: If you have a story to share, please feel free 558 00:30:57,719 --> 00:31:00,380 Speaker 1: to leave a comment on this episode on Spotify or 559 00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:03,150 Speaker 1: Apple or you can email us at CN A podcast 560 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: with a S at media Corp dot com dot SG. 561 00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:09,420 Speaker 1: Thanks to Faith. Thank our guest and to the CN 562 00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:12,349 Speaker 1: A podcast team. Till we chat again next week. Have 563 00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:14,439 Speaker 1: a productive work week. Thank you.