Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Climate Conversations. I'm Kong man. But
Speaker 2: some of you may know me better as bio MJ.
Speaker 2: I was formerly a science teacher and now I host
Speaker 2: a science and environment channel on social media called Just
Speaker 2: Keep Thinking. We're kicking off with a new limited series
Speaker 2: that I'm guest hosting called My Green Gig. I'll speak
Speaker 2: to people who are in some unconventional job,
Speaker 2: specifically green jobs and find out what they do at
Speaker 2: work today. I'm going to have a conversation about birds
Speaker 2: with a passionate birder, which I just realized is a
Speaker 2: legit word to describe someone who observes birds as a hobby.
Speaker 2: He is moving Nian San Guran, a phd student researching
Speaker 2: on bird conservation at N US and he is also
Speaker 2: a friend of mine.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having
Speaker 2: me here. It's been a while and I love your shirt.
Speaker 2: He's on theme today guys. Yeah, I'm just wearing my
Speaker 2: bird shirt. So it's got a bunch of birds on
Speaker 2: it along with like monster and pineapples, pineapples. Ok. So
Speaker 2: I must confess when you first told me that you
Speaker 2: wanted to study birds. I was like
Speaker 2: birds because you did your final year project in university
Speaker 2: on freshwater fish, which is very different from a flying bird, right? So,
Speaker 2: what triggered your interest in our fey friends? Ok. You know,
Speaker 2: this is actually a question I get asked a lot. So, uh,
Speaker 2: first of all, hi, everyone. My name is Movin man.
Speaker 2: Already introduced me and, and the thing is we actually
Speaker 2: went to school together. So we
Speaker 2: did our undergrads together. We were in laps. So we just,
Speaker 2: we just like good times throw back. But anyway, um yeah,
Speaker 2: so I came into university being very passionate about fish,
Speaker 2: I guess fresh water fish because I kept fresh water fish.
Speaker 2: I like
Speaker 2: going and scooping uh like looking at fish wherever I go.
Speaker 2: But I've always been really interested in birds because I
Speaker 2: used to travel with my family and I'm super into
Speaker 2: nature and the most obvious thing that you get to
Speaker 2: see often times when you are in these places
Speaker 2: are birds, basically because they're always flying around. And then
Speaker 2: it becomes a question of like, I want to know
Speaker 2: what that species is because I want to know what
Speaker 2: I'm looking at. It's like my neurotic self just being like,
Speaker 2: I want to categorize. I want to know what that
Speaker 2: thing is. And with birds, you get a lot of references,
Speaker 2: like you have a lot of field guides and things
Speaker 2: like that to help you identify the birds, not so
Speaker 2: much with other species. Actually, I think, and things like frogs, lizards, mammals,
Speaker 2: they are all so much harder to look at and
Speaker 2: observe also because they are so much rarer. They are
Speaker 2: often much shyer as well.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of where that thing started. So I
Speaker 2: was already a birdwatcher back in the university days. But
Speaker 2: after that, I wanted to go into grad school and
Speaker 2: I wanted to do stuff that was not. So because
Speaker 2: remember we did so much ecology work when we were
Speaker 2: in undergrad. So we were going out to the field,
Speaker 2: getting the data in the site and then coming back,
Speaker 2: I know, I know exactly. So I decided, you know what,
Speaker 2: why not? I love being stuck with my laptop. So
Speaker 2: I want to do that even more.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to go and learn genetics, right? I
Speaker 2: just want to sit in front of my computer and
Speaker 2: code it. So like in N us, the best genetics
Speaker 2: professor happens to be a bird guy, right? So it
Speaker 2: kind of made sense. I mean, I really like birds
Speaker 2: and I wanted to get like a new skill set
Speaker 2: under my belt. And so it kind of made sense
Speaker 2: to try and I managed to get a position in
Speaker 2: the university for the phd. And then here I am,
Speaker 2: I guess studying birds. I did not know this story,
Speaker 2: but was there a point
Speaker 2: in your life? Where you realize that, hey, I want
Speaker 2: to become a bird conservationist and I'm going to make
Speaker 2: this my career. I think it's never really been a
Speaker 2: single moment. It's been more of like a process, I think. So.
Speaker 2: Right after undergrad, I was consulting for a while. I
Speaker 2: went back to do research assistant. Then I worked for
Speaker 2: in conservation in the IUCN for a little bit. So
Speaker 2: like this thing called the Asian Species Action Partnership for
Speaker 2: a little while. And it was a very eye-opening experience
Speaker 2: because it really let me see how,
Speaker 2: what conservation planning looks like. So for those of you
Speaker 2: who don't know the IUCN is the International Union for
Speaker 2: the Conservation of Nature. And it kind of like one
Speaker 2: of the major groups that spearheads conservation throughout the world
Speaker 2: and they have a whole bunch of different subgroups and
Speaker 2: committees that do a lot of this conservation planning and
Speaker 2: then translate these plans into actions on the ground, right?
Speaker 2: So
Speaker 2: when I was there, I realized I like conservation action,
Speaker 2: but I'm also very interested in this whole conservation planning
Speaker 2: aspect of it, right? Like the big picture stuff, what
Speaker 2: are the big things we need to put in place
Speaker 2: in order to safeguard all of nature before? Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, like with, with most things, right? But I
Speaker 2: think what we fail to realize what I failed to
Speaker 2: realize with conservation is that
Speaker 2: not only do you need to know your stuff. Not
Speaker 2: only do you need to know things about like animals, plants, nature,
Speaker 2: how your organism behaves, but it's also kind of like
Speaker 2: really a study of people as well because people are
Speaker 2: the ones who are putting these things in danger. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, people are the ones saving these
Speaker 2: things as well. So convincing people to change the way
Speaker 2: that they view certain things can always be beneficial. So
Speaker 2: if people are always hunting a certain species, that means
Speaker 2: they are very good at finding that bird. For instance,
Speaker 2: if they realize that, hey, bird watchers would pay a
Speaker 2: fair bit of money to come and see this bird
Speaker 2: and I can show them this bird because I'm so
Speaker 2: good at finding it. Then instead of selling the bird
Speaker 2: one time as a dead animal, right? You can keep
Speaker 2: selling the same bird multiple times to people, right? So
Speaker 2: you change the way that they think about
Speaker 2: the resource that they have. And so that was kind
Speaker 2: of like the interesting thing for me, right? Like how
Speaker 2: do we change mindsets and how do we reorientate that
Speaker 2: in a way that is like, exactly. Yeah. So a
Speaker 2: lot of it is really about creative problem solving almost.
Speaker 2: And that aspect of conservation was really what excites me
Speaker 2: about it, which is that it's not just about the
Speaker 2: nerdy parts of it like, I mean, which we both love, right?
Speaker 2: Like being nerds is like in our blood, we love it.
Speaker 2: But
Speaker 2: at the same time, there's also this whole people aspect
Speaker 2: to it, which I'm sure as extroverts we can both
Speaker 2: kind of relate to, right? Which is the meeting, engaging
Speaker 2: with people and also getting to listen to people, find
Speaker 2: out more about people and that's kind of been the
Speaker 2: driving force behind this whole thing. Yeah, you get inspired
Speaker 2: and you inspire others as well, I mean, you hope, right?
Speaker 2: And you hope that you can make a change that way.
Speaker 2: So then after that, I realized like, if I want
Speaker 2: to be involved in conservation planning, it's either 15 years
Speaker 2: of
Speaker 2: experience or getting a phd. And for once getting a
Speaker 2: phd is the quicker option, which is very rarely is
Speaker 2: the case. So and then I was like, ok, back
Speaker 2: to grad school here, I am, I guess and you know,
Speaker 2: just like every job, you know, there's always the good
Speaker 2: and not so good parts to it, right? What's the
Speaker 2: most rewarding part of the work that you do? You know,
Speaker 2: I have a moment to tell you. OK, so basically
Speaker 2: share it with me. OK. So basically part of,
Speaker 2: of my work for phd involves like a lot of
Speaker 2: field work, which means I go out to get DNA
Speaker 2: from birds. Rest assured guys, we don't hurt the birds
Speaker 2: at all. It's just like a drop of blood, birds
Speaker 2: are released completely unharmed. And so what I study is
Speaker 2: understanding why species are distributed the way they are in
Speaker 2: the region, right? So my work is really centered in
Speaker 2: Southeast Asia. I do a lot of genetic work to,
Speaker 2: to study that. So I'm, I'm studying how many species
Speaker 2: we have in the region. What are the distributions of
Speaker 2: these species and things like that?
Speaker 2: And to learn the distributions of these species and to
Speaker 2: get these samples, the field will kick me some pretty
Speaker 2: amazing places. And there's this place that we recently visited
Speaker 2: in the Philippines in the southwest, in the island of
Speaker 2: Mindanao called this place called Lake. And it's gorgeous. So
Speaker 2: I think one of the, one of the best things
Speaker 2: about the job is like the places it takes me,
Speaker 2: we were sitting at this ridge just overlooking. So we
Speaker 2: kept at this ridge just overlooking this beautiful crystal clear
Speaker 2: blue lake and it was
Speaker 2: gorgeous and it was one of those moments where you
Speaker 2: look down and you're like, you know what life is? Good.
Speaker 2: Life is pretty good. PD is fine. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2: Ph isn't always easy. There's always a lot of challenges
Speaker 2: and I'm sure any phd student can tell you that.
Speaker 2: But it's like moments like that when you're like, you
Speaker 2: know what, when you feel super centered and you're looking
Speaker 2: out and you see
Speaker 2: the world and you look at nature and you're kind
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, this is what I'm doing this for.
Speaker 2: Oh my God. This sounds amazing. Speaking about observing birds,
Speaker 2: we do have a pretty big and huge birding community
Speaker 2: here in Singapore. We do definitely do. What are the
Speaker 2: people like, you know, in this birding community? And I've
Speaker 2: seen before, groups of uncles and aunties with bazooka cameras around.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm one of them like once in a while. Yeah. But,
Speaker 2: you know, some people have the notion that it is
Speaker 2: like an old people activity. Well,
Speaker 2: ok, that's actually a really good question because I think
Speaker 2: the budding community in Singapore is really, really, like you said,
Speaker 2: it's massive. But
Speaker 2: because of the fact that it's massive, I think in
Speaker 2: part of that it's also highly diverse. Yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: you get your fair bit of uncles and aunties who
Speaker 2: are doing it. You also get people around our age,
Speaker 2: late twenties, thirties type of thing. Uh, but recently there've
Speaker 2: also been a bunch of like, teenagers who have started
Speaker 2: entering the hobbies, maybe it started off as an old
Speaker 2: person hobby with very few young people back in the
Speaker 2: eighties and the nineties and maybe even in the early
Speaker 2: two thousands. But now I think it's really picking up
Speaker 2: amongst our demographics as well as
Speaker 2: people who are even younger than us. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: It's true that I've been seeing also younger folks joining
Speaker 2: and sometimes, you know, the parents is the one that
Speaker 2: was encouraging. So both of them like a dad and
Speaker 2: son team and I guess there's also a lot of
Speaker 2: resources for bird watching now. Like I'm part of this
Speaker 2: group called the Singapore Birds Project. And we have a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of resources online to help people identify birds
Speaker 2: more easily.
Speaker 2: Like all the bids in Singapore, we have PS for
Speaker 2: them and things like that a lot. So I think
Speaker 2: not only is it that bird watching is becoming more
Speaker 2: famous as a hobby, but there are more resources available
Speaker 2: for people to learn and more access to it. So
Speaker 2: you don't have to necessarily like back in the day,
Speaker 2: go to a library to borrow the field guide and
Speaker 2: things like that. Now, you can literally just check on
Speaker 2: your phone, what the right times have changed?
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of technology and how things have improved along
Speaker 2: the years, do bird conservationists and researchers like you guys, right?
Speaker 2: How do you guys do your bird research? Do you
Speaker 2: guys like act like detectives and you see like the
Speaker 2: birds movement and you track like, I don't know bird poop,
Speaker 2: things like that? Ok. So there's many ways of doing
Speaker 2: bird research, right? So there are people who do
Speaker 2: huge ecological work, which often means like you put up
Speaker 2: your miss nets, mis nets are sort of like these really,
Speaker 2: really fine nets that you put up in the forest
Speaker 2: in the right? Lighting in the duck and the story,
Speaker 2: it is almost invisible, right? So once we almost got
Speaker 2: uncle in a mis net before. Yeah, it was hilarious.
Speaker 2: The area was actually closed off but someone was naughty
Speaker 2: and got into the area and we were like, oh,
Speaker 2: please don't go there. He ran past us and then
Speaker 2: he almost got caught in the net. That was very funny.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so we typically put up mis nets. So
Speaker 2: like my job is relatively easy. I catch the birds.
Speaker 2: I take a little like a tiny, tiny, tiny,
Speaker 2: like like literally guys, microliters of blood. OK? Like so little, yeah,
Speaker 2: like practically a drop and we bring that blood back
Speaker 2: to the lab for extracting DNA and stuff. We let
Speaker 2: the blood go, which is like it sounds exciting, but
Speaker 2: it's also very little actual fueled work per se, right?
Speaker 2: Like a lot of our time is spent in the
Speaker 2: lab and on our computers doing the analysis,
Speaker 2: which is OK. It means that I get to go
Speaker 2: to a lot of different places rather than staying for
Speaker 2: a very long period in one field site. Some people
Speaker 2: are bud Ecologist. So they want to find out about
Speaker 2: bird movement and stuff like that. So they might put
Speaker 2: transmitters on birds to track their movements. Yeah. So then
Speaker 2: they can find out things about like, oh what is
Speaker 2: the area that the bird is feeding in? How far
Speaker 2: does it go? So things like that actually are really
Speaker 2: important for conservation as well. So the work I do,
Speaker 2: I find out what species live with,
Speaker 2: where, what are the areas that need to be protected
Speaker 2: to protect all the species in the in the area? Right?
Speaker 2: Uh But a question is that can be answered from like,
Speaker 2: you know, using your radio transmitter is what is the
Speaker 2: minimum area required for this bird to exist? You know.
Speaker 2: So if I know it needs this kind of habitat,
Speaker 2: given the total area of the habitat and I know
Speaker 2: how much the territory size of each bird is, right?
Speaker 2: How much of the area it will go through? I
Speaker 2: can calculate how many birds can be supported.
Speaker 2: But this area, right? So that is a very powerful
Speaker 2: tool for conservation because it kind of tells me like, oh,
Speaker 2: this area can support how many birds or how many
Speaker 2: pairs of birds in this area, how many? And so
Speaker 2: it can give me a very good numerical sense of things.
Speaker 2: Not perfect, of course, because a lot of these things
Speaker 2: are like, you know, relative, but it can give me
Speaker 2: good answers on that. And then of course, you have
Speaker 2: other people who are observational studying, right? Like you do
Speaker 2: real natural history work, which is something that a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't do nowadays, which is
Speaker 2: there is a bird nesting. I'm going to set up
Speaker 2: a small tent and just watch the bird and see
Speaker 2: what the parents are feeding the baby, you know, like
Speaker 2: things like that. So you could. But the thing is like,
Speaker 2: what you observe at the camera is never going to
Speaker 2: be as a good, you're never going to be able
Speaker 2: to pick up exactly the thing in the bill as
Speaker 2: if you were sitting there with binoculars being like, ok. Yes,
Speaker 2: it is bringing this species of frog, this species of spider,
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that is very,
Speaker 2: very rarely done nowadays. I think we need more of it.
Speaker 2: But I know some friends in the Philippines who are
Speaker 2: doing this kind of work. It takes a long time
Speaker 2: like they are literally in the field 10 hours a day, almost.
Speaker 2: They bring snacks into the field in the field. They
Speaker 2: are sitting in the tent watching the birds. That's true dedication.
Speaker 2: It is, it is, it's crazy. Can you share with us,
Speaker 2: you know, some of the interesting birds that you can
Speaker 2: perhaps find in Singapore other than the usual miners, peaches
Speaker 2: and crows, which I know all of us have seen
Speaker 2: it before.
Speaker 2: Like how many species do we have here? And do
Speaker 2: we have like really, really cool birds that the public
Speaker 2: don't know about? So I think if we include visitors,
Speaker 2: migrants and things like that, we have about almost 400
Speaker 2: species of birds in Singapore, like around 400 species of birds,
Speaker 2: which is a lot
Speaker 2: like ours. We're lucky in the sense that we are
Speaker 2: along one of the migratory flyways. So a lot of
Speaker 2: birds in the higher areas like the high latitude. So,
Speaker 2: like places like northern China, Russia, places like that. It
Speaker 2: gets really cold in the winter. So winter, they take
Speaker 2: a little summer holiday, they come to the right to chill.
Speaker 2: And so we have a lot of birds that kind
Speaker 2: of do that here in Singapore because we're along the way,
Speaker 2: I suppose, to destination. Not exactly, not just for people
Speaker 2: but also for birds.
Speaker 2: Yeah. What are some of the coolest birds in your opinion,
Speaker 2: especially if we include the migratory ones that you know,
Speaker 2: even for you, you get really excited and
Speaker 2: not sure if you have rushed down before to actually capture.
Speaker 2: There have been a few times. Ok? So there's a
Speaker 2: group of birds called Pita. So peters are like super
Speaker 2: colorful and every loves take photo of them. Ok? Like not,
Speaker 2: I also love to look at them. There's this one
Speaker 2: species of Pita that is typically people find in Taiwan
Speaker 2: but also in the southern coast of China and maybe
Speaker 2: maybe northern most Vietnam where they breed there. It's called
Speaker 2: the Fair Pita. Perfect name like it is, it is,
Speaker 2: it has a really beautiful coloration
Speaker 2: and usually conventional wisdom has that the whole population goes
Speaker 2: to Borneo to migrate. So like Brunei, but a few
Speaker 2: years ago we got one record of came to central catchment. Oh, wow,
Speaker 2: everyone went, everyone went whole Singapore was there whole Singapore
Speaker 2: just packed into the forest and then there's another bird
Speaker 2: that turned up in
Speaker 2: Chick and pull out U oh, so there's a few things. Ok.
Speaker 2: So there's a few things that turn up in Chick Java.
Speaker 2: So there's the Green Brought Bill, which is a very
Speaker 2: cute plush. But, and it's really interesting because like the
Speaker 2: green brought bill is one of those. But you used
Speaker 2: to live in Singapore back in four days, right? But
Speaker 2: it went extinct.
Speaker 2: And then now we're slowly getting records of it from
Speaker 2: Chik Java. We're not entirely sure what the reason is.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some deforestation happening in southern Johor. Then the
Speaker 2: birds are like, I can't live here any, any money
Speaker 2: you find somewhere else. Then they are like, oh there's
Speaker 2: a green spot there and the green spot happens to be, right?
Speaker 2: So maybe that's what's happening. We don't necessarily have evidence
Speaker 2: for that per se, but that's like my best guess
Speaker 2: I would say. But recently there was this huge horn
Speaker 2: bill called the White Crown Horn Bill that turned up
Speaker 2: in Uber. And it's a big horn bill, ok.
Speaker 2: And the Oriental pi is actually the smallest horn bill
Speaker 2: in the region, which is like shocking one of the
Speaker 2: smallest horn bills in the region probably shares that with
Speaker 2: the Busy Crested Horn bill, which is also quite a
Speaker 2: small horn bill. And I say small in relative terms, right?
Speaker 2: Because like even
Speaker 2: the smallest at horn bill is going to fill up
Speaker 2: this table comfortably, right? Like, yeah, you just be like, ok, so,
Speaker 2: but the white Hobo is a big horn bill. It's
Speaker 2: over a meter long. So the thing about it that
Speaker 2: makes it particularly interesting is that it's not a common
Speaker 2: horn bill. If I had to predict which hon bill
Speaker 2: would randomly turn up at, right. The first few choices
Speaker 2: would not be white crown. So this was kind of
Speaker 2: a surprise for us.
Speaker 2: Hello, my name is Steve and I'm Theresa Tang. And
Speaker 2: we are the hosts of CNA correspondent, a podcast that
Speaker 2: takes you to the heart of the work our correspondents
Speaker 2: do across the globe from China's COVID response to the
Speaker 2: Childcare Center massacre in Thailand and
Speaker 2: the fall of Najib Razak to the rise of Anwar
Speaker 2: Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, we speak to the people
Speaker 2: at the reporting front lines. So if you want to
Speaker 2: know how the biggest global stories unfold, make sure you
Speaker 2: follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Ok. Move in now it's time to put your skills
Speaker 2: to the test with a little surprise game segment that
Speaker 2: I have prepared for you. So I'm going to play
Speaker 2: two different bird calls. Just two. Alright. And for each call,
Speaker 2: you will have to guess the species of bird within
Speaker 2: five seconds. And I'm super excited for this one because
Speaker 2: I actually do send some of the unknown bird calls
Speaker 2: that are here when I'm out in Asia to move
Speaker 2: in whenever I cannot figure out which bird it belongs to.
Speaker 2: And he just magically tells me the answer.
Speaker 2: So, move in. Are you ready to wing it? Let's
Speaker 2: do this. All right. Ok. But call number one.
Speaker 2: Ok. So this is the Asian coal. This is also
Speaker 2: the bird that wakes us all up on like lazy
Speaker 2: weekends when you want to sleep in. Right. This is
Speaker 2: the bird that we hear. So it's the Asian coal.
Speaker 2: This bird is really interesting because it used to only
Speaker 2: come to Singapore as a migrant and it was very rare,
Speaker 2: but it is a nest parasite which means it lays
Speaker 2: its eggs in other people's nests and the butter, it
Speaker 2: lays its eggs in. It is actually the house crow. Oh, interesting. Right. Ok.
Speaker 2: Are you ready for the second call?
Speaker 2: Ok. This one is the straw, which is basically the
Speaker 2: flagship species of bird conservation in Singapore. Is it? Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm surprised that you get both. Correct. They're like, this
Speaker 2: one has a super distinctive call and often times when
Speaker 2: you hear the full call, like we did, right. It's
Speaker 2: actually two birds going at it. It's not just one bird.
Speaker 2: So the two birds are so well coordinated. It just
Speaker 2: sounds like one song. Yeah. Yeah. But actually it's a
Speaker 2: male and female. So strong, right? It's true love guys.
Speaker 2: And it's critically endangered globally. But in Singapore it's doing
Speaker 2: well because we have such little poaching pressure that the
Speaker 2: birds are still around and our best guardians are all
Speaker 2: the auntie uncle who walk in the park and we just,
Speaker 2: you know, if they see anyone, I mean, you can't
Speaker 2: even make noise because they will be like, exactly. Ok.
Speaker 2: So right now we have a little bonus bird call
Speaker 2: for you because you're so good at it.
Speaker 2: This one is uh Kingfisher, right? So this would be
Speaker 2: the stock bill kingfisher, which is the, which is the biggest,
Speaker 2: which is the biggest kingfisher in Singapore. And one of
Speaker 2: the bigger kingfishers in the world. This one in particular
Speaker 2: is like a mangrove reservoir type species around like large
Speaker 2: bodies of water.
Speaker 2: If you see a big kingfisher with a brown head
Speaker 2: and like a big red. Yeah, that's this guy. It
Speaker 2: was my favorite, but it's so cute I think is
Speaker 2: disproportionately big bigger than the rest of it. I love
Speaker 2: birds that look disproportionate. You know, it's like the best.
Speaker 2: You guys are cute.
Speaker 2: And while we're on the topic of bird calls, I
Speaker 2: have personally come across birders that sometimes play bird calls
Speaker 2: on their phones to attract a particular species of bird
Speaker 2: that they want to photograph. Um, some birders even feed
Speaker 2: these wild birds illegally just so they can get a
Speaker 2: good shot. So, do you know how all of these
Speaker 2: actions will affect the bird's natural habitat or even behavior? Ok.
Speaker 2: So this is a complicated question because I think the
Speaker 2: answer to whether it's ethical or not can be determined
Speaker 2: on where in the world this is happening.
Speaker 2: Ok. So like in Singapore, the birds are fairly well protected,
Speaker 2: they have ample food, they have ample resources. No one's
Speaker 2: going out shooting the birds, right? And, and the reason
Speaker 2: for this will become more apparent when I, when I
Speaker 2: explain a bit further. So is it a good idea
Speaker 2: to feed the birds in Singapore? Probably? No, but there
Speaker 2: are other parts of the world where for instance, people
Speaker 2: hunt birds, right? People hunt birds, the birds are very shy.
Speaker 2: So in many parts of Southeast Asia, for instance, where
Speaker 2: there is quite a strong bird hunting culture, not just
Speaker 2: for food, but for the pet trade and stuff like
Speaker 2: that
Speaker 2: where people set up heights to which bird watchers pay
Speaker 2: for to go and they feed birds there and the
Speaker 2: birds that are comfortable and you can get really, really,
Speaker 2: really rare species coming out. And so what this does
Speaker 2: is that it can instill goodwill in the people in
Speaker 2: the area knowing that like, hey, there is some revenue,
Speaker 2: there's some money coming in from these people paying. So
Speaker 2: I'm less likely to hunt the birds. Perhaps it isn't
Speaker 2: in the best interest of that one bird individual that
Speaker 2: is always coming there feeding. But in a sense, the
Speaker 2: setting up of these heights, the feeding of these
Speaker 2: birds actually protects a much bigger ecosystem or much bigger
Speaker 2: set of birds than that. Right. Because often times when
Speaker 2: you have bird watchers coming to an area you need,
Speaker 2: someone will have a small home stay so they can
Speaker 2: stay there. Someone opens a small restaurant so that people
Speaker 2: can eat. So you really start this whole revenue thing
Speaker 2: that builds over to other people than just the person
Speaker 2: that's managing this bird feeder. For instance, it becomes like
Speaker 2: a form of sustainable livelihood. Exactly. Exactly. To protect the
Speaker 2: entire ecosystem. Exactly. So it's, it's a, in the big
Speaker 2: picture cut type of thing. Yeah, maybe it's not too bad.
Speaker 2: So, how has the birding community or people who do
Speaker 2: birding as a hobby? Contributed to scientific research of birds
Speaker 2: and towards bird conservation as a whole? I love this question,
Speaker 2: especially in the Singapore context. Right? Because a lot of
Speaker 2: the civilian people who are involved in a lot of
Speaker 2: these consultations, like the a consultations or even like in,
Speaker 2: in working groups. So working groups are sort of like
Speaker 2: groups that are of people with expertise, brought together to
Speaker 2: work on specific projects. So a lot of the people
Speaker 2: in the bird working groups per se tend to be
Speaker 2: people who have bird watched for a long time
Speaker 2: time because they have a lot of experience like documenting
Speaker 2: what the birds do, where they live, what they eat,
Speaker 2: what they, they may not be scientists themselves. But the
Speaker 2: thing is like bird watching, especially if you're like super
Speaker 2: hardcore about it. The observations you make lend themselves very
Speaker 2: well to science as a whole, you know. So actually,
Speaker 2: like there's this whole thing called E Bird in the
Speaker 2: world is set up by this lab in Cornell University
Speaker 2: where people just make lists of what birds they see
Speaker 2: and they take it to a location and they upload
Speaker 2: them
Speaker 2: this to the thing. So this is a massive massive
Speaker 2: repository of bird watchers sending in data. And then actually
Speaker 2: a scientist, we can use that data to make sense
Speaker 2: of where the birds found how abundant they are. And
Speaker 2: because people have been uploading historical list from the eighties
Speaker 2: as well, right, we can even track. Are the birds
Speaker 2: as common then as they were now, are they more
Speaker 2: common now? What has changed? Exactly. Right. Oh, this, this
Speaker 2: area used to have a lot of the species but
Speaker 2: now no more things like that. So of course, the
Speaker 2: caveat here is that these sightings need to be managed properly,
Speaker 2: cannot be. People just submit rubbish,
Speaker 2: rubbish, right? Just like nonsense, but like don't even exist
Speaker 2: there miscount and everything, right? So every country has a moderator. Yeah,
Speaker 2: an organization that, that, that moderates and stuff. So of course,
Speaker 2: depending on the country, right, some, some moderators are of
Speaker 2: course better than others. For example, like in Malaysia, this
Speaker 2: one of the moderators is Dave Bakewell, he's like amazing.
Speaker 2: So depending on the region, the quality of the EBA data,
Speaker 2: it like differs quite a bit. Yeah, but under good moderation,
Speaker 2: it can really be a powerful tool for science.
Speaker 2: And it's made possible by all of these people who
Speaker 2: are just bird watching, you know, like for fun. That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Just like how a regular citizen can contribute. It's basically
Speaker 2: citizen science and it does have a very big impact
Speaker 2: in terms of bird conservation. Exactly. And the thing is, it,
Speaker 2: it feels like fun. Like, you know what you mean?
Speaker 2: Like you're doing it, you're bird watching for fun. You're
Speaker 2: not like I am here to count the number of
Speaker 2: birds because it is a bird censor or whatever. Right.
Speaker 2: It's just me doing it for fun and then I'm
Speaker 2: already going to make a list anyway. I might as
Speaker 2: well just put it. Exactly. Right. So it's kind of
Speaker 2: fun that way.
Speaker 2: But I'm sure, you know, during your bird conservation journey,
Speaker 2: you probably faced many challenges, especially in your work protecting
Speaker 2: these birds. So, what is one conservation issue or challenge
Speaker 2: that keeps you up at night? That, you know, if
Speaker 2: you could, you would snap your fingers and that issue
Speaker 2: would be limited immediately. Ok. So this is quite contentious,
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna say it anyway. Um,
Speaker 2: and I'll give you my honest thoughts on this. So
Speaker 2: basically in Southeast Asia, right in the, in the region
Speaker 2: as a whole bird keeping song, bird keeping is a big,
Speaker 2: big deal. Right. So that has often resulted in a
Speaker 2: lot of birds being trapped in the wild and being
Speaker 2: kept in cages. And if you go to some of
Speaker 2: these massive bird markets, the scale of it, it can
Speaker 2: be quite terrifying.
Speaker 2: Like there are so many birds and many birds have
Speaker 2: gone to the brink of extinction because of it. And
Speaker 2: if I could snap my fingers, I would change that.
Speaker 2: But I think the other thing that bothers me about
Speaker 2: is like the songbird keepers, right? Are some of the
Speaker 2: people who know birds the best and you can tell
Speaker 2: that they really love birds. They love birds so much.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why they're keeping the song birds, right?
Speaker 2: And in many cases, these things are culturally important. Song
Speaker 2: bookkeeping is culturally important. So how do we sensitively work
Speaker 2: through this? Right? You can't just tell people stop, stop
Speaker 2: keeping birds, right? Like, or just going to insist on,
Speaker 2: on having these laws because laws are only powerful. If
Speaker 2: people respect them and follow them. If you set a
Speaker 2: law that you know, people are not going to follow,
Speaker 2: then is a waste of time. Number one and number two,
Speaker 2: it means that subsequent laws that you make are going
Speaker 2: to have less and less power because people are just
Speaker 2: going to be like, I don't
Speaker 2: have to follow if I don't agree with you. Right?
Speaker 2: So it comes to a point like how do I
Speaker 2: get this set of people, these bird keepers who actually
Speaker 2: genuinely love birds, right. They take care of their birds,
Speaker 2: they care about their birds. And in fact, I wouldn't,
Speaker 2: I mean, like, of course, it's sad to see the
Speaker 2: birds in a small enclosed space, but, you know, in
Speaker 2: terms of their basic needs being met, right? Many of
Speaker 2: these birds in cages that are being kept by good song,
Speaker 2: bird keepers have more of their needs met than many
Speaker 2: birds in the wild. So how do you convince people
Speaker 2: who love birds so much that the birds will be
Speaker 2: better off
Speaker 2: in the wild? Right? So of course, in the dream world,
Speaker 2: we would convert all song bird keepers to bird watchers, right?
Speaker 2: And then we have an army of bird watchers insisting
Speaker 2: on forest protection and conservation and things like that. But
Speaker 2: life is not so easy, it's complicated and there are
Speaker 2: many layers to it. They love birds, but there's also
Speaker 2: cultural context to it. There's also like the sense of
Speaker 2: not necessarily understanding what the ramifications of the trade are
Speaker 2: and things like that.
Speaker 2: So a lot of his education, a lot of it
Speaker 2: is talking to people and a lot of it is
Speaker 2: like coming up with creative ways to tackle these issues.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that movie because I think
Speaker 2: you've shared both sides of the issue like these people
Speaker 2: are not necessarily they have ill intention.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In fact, they have good intention. They just love
Speaker 2: something so much and it's, you know, it's difficult for
Speaker 2: someone of that age. You know, if it's like an
Speaker 2: older folk to change its mindset and it's very easy
Speaker 2: to write people off, I think. But conservation is really
Speaker 2: about
Speaker 2: active applied empathy and trying to understand where this person
Speaker 2: is coming from because you don't want to paint people
Speaker 2: as good guys and bad guys. right? You want to
Speaker 2: paint them as people work together. Exactly. And if you
Speaker 2: want to be collaborative about things, you just can't cast
Speaker 2: people as villains, right? They have to be fully fleshed
Speaker 2: out human beings with complex motivations. Empathy, not only to
Speaker 2: the nature and animals but to humans. Yeah. Exactly. And
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of like the reason why I
Speaker 2: keep doing this, right? Because
Speaker 2: we're extroverts, we like understanding people and, and that's kind
Speaker 2: of part of the job I think of being a
Speaker 2: conservation as well. That's a nice wrap up to our
Speaker 2: conversation and thank you so much. Thanks so much for
Speaker 2: having me. Yeah, I had so much fun just like
Speaker 2: old times. This is like old times. We'll catch up soon. Ok?
Speaker 2: Alright. If you've always found yourself a little more than
Speaker 2: just fascinated with birds, perhaps you may want to consider
Speaker 2: being a birder just like move in. So thank you
Speaker 2: to our guests, move in and thank you to everyone
Speaker 2: for tuning in as Well, we hope you have enjoyed
Speaker 2: this episode and do remember to like and subscribe to
Speaker 2: this podcast so that you will know when a new
Speaker 2: episode drops. You can also leave us a review on
Speaker 2: Spotify or Apple Podcast and tell us what you think
Speaker 2: of this episode.
Speaker 2: The team behind this podcast is Jacqueline Chancy Winn Joanne
Speaker 2: Chan Tiffany Ang and Christina Robert. Once again, I am
Speaker 2: man signing off.