1 00:00:00,159 --> 00:00:02,460 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:06,530 --> 00:00:10,949 Speaker 1: 2024 is being called the biggest election year in history. 3 00:00:11,180 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: At least 64 countries plus the European Union head to 4 00:00:14,569 --> 00:00:18,218 Speaker 1: the polls and Indonesia is where the biggest single day 5 00:00:18,229 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: vote is happening. So how big are we talking 6 00:00:21,090 --> 00:00:26,590 Speaker 1: while some 205 million eligible voters across 18,000 islands, not 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,090 Speaker 1: to mention Indonesians overseas as well. 20,000 representatives need to 8 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:34,900 Speaker 1: be chosen and there are a quarter of a million candidates. 9 00:00:34,979 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: Seats are being contested at the municipal provincial and national 10 00:00:38,689 --> 00:00:40,989 Speaker 1: level as well as the highest office in the land, 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,168 Speaker 1: the presidency. Ok. So let's zoom in on the three 12 00:00:44,180 --> 00:00:48,028 Speaker 1: presidential candidates and how they connect with all of those voters. 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:48,830 Speaker 1: This is how 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:52,049 Speaker 1: I 15 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:55,849 Speaker 1: we are p side 16 00:00:58,569 --> 00:00:58,909 Speaker 1: that A 17 00:01:00,009 --> 00:01:00,020 Speaker 1: oh 18 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,910 Speaker 1: Indonesia is among the world's biggest users of social media 19 00:01:05,919 --> 00:01:09,809 Speaker 1: and that's exactly where you'll find the presidential contenders. Just 20 00:01:09,819 --> 00:01:13,639 Speaker 1: tap on their accounts. They're singing, dancing, posing for the camera. 21 00:01:19,239 --> 00:01:22,089 Speaker 1: Joining me now to talk about the online and offline 22 00:01:22,099 --> 00:01:26,489 Speaker 1: campaigns are CN A digital correspondent Nevel Rada and Cnat 23 00:01:26,500 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: V's Olivia Marzouki and Saal Bari Ismail. 24 00:01:29,839 --> 00:01:34,410 Speaker 1: Hi guys. Hi. Hi, Theresa Hey, hey, tt ok, there 25 00:01:34,419 --> 00:01:36,830 Speaker 1: are three of them. There are three of you and 26 00:01:36,839 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: you're each tracking a presidential candidate first off. I want 27 00:01:40,010 --> 00:01:42,940 Speaker 1: you guys to tell me what's the most essential item 28 00:01:42,949 --> 00:01:45,940 Speaker 1: for covering this election. And you can't say your phone, Neville. 29 00:01:45,949 --> 00:01:48,550 Speaker 1: Let's start with you. Well, I always carry a small 30 00:01:48,559 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: sling bag with me for me to put my phones, 31 00:01:51,690 --> 00:01:55,180 Speaker 1: my wallet and other valuables. It can get chaotic out 32 00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:58,269 Speaker 1: there with so many supporters scut pulling to get close 33 00:01:58,279 --> 00:01:59,139 Speaker 1: to a candidate. 34 00:01:59,430 --> 00:02:02,370 Speaker 1: Everyone is fighting to snap a spy or shake hands 35 00:02:02,379 --> 00:02:05,569 Speaker 1: with the candidates and, and I have lost my phone 36 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: during a scrum of people like that before. Yes, I know. 37 00:02:08,970 --> 00:02:12,089 Speaker 1: So it's better to be safe than sorry, I guess cipher. 38 00:02:12,229 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: So one item I have in my backpack is a 39 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: mosquito repellent. That's a which comes in the form of 40 00:02:19,169 --> 00:02:22,509 Speaker 1: a spray bottle. Now, this to me is an essential 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,508 Speaker 1: item because I get bitten by mosquitoes easily and this 42 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,910 Speaker 1: is super useful to ward off these blood sucking insects 43 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,750 Speaker 1: when I happen to be in a mosquito invested area. 44 00:02:33,929 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: Olivia. Well, um, all of the above the sling bag. Yes, check. 45 00:02:39,130 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: Mosquito repellent check and my flat heels. Well, I would 46 00:02:43,729 --> 00:02:46,789 Speaker 1: call this flat because in the studio there, I would 47 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,850 Speaker 1: be wearing like 10 centimeters heels, but it's impossible comfortable 48 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:54,860 Speaker 1: to wear those heels. Yeah, that's my secret weapon. 49 00:02:55,250 --> 00:02:59,288 Speaker 1: Neville. You're tracking Prabowo Subianto. He's the former son in 50 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:02,750 Speaker 1: law of late dictator Suharto, an ex general who was 51 00:03:02,758 --> 00:03:06,428 Speaker 1: dismissed from the military over accusations of human rights abuses 52 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:09,789 Speaker 1: which he denied and who once faced a ban on 53 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,910 Speaker 1: visiting the US. And his image has really been softened 54 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,289 Speaker 1: by handlers to a warm cuddly grandpa figure and he's 55 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:20,389 Speaker 1: on his third bid for the presidency. He's widely seen 56 00:03:20,399 --> 00:03:21,419 Speaker 1: as the front runner 57 00:03:21,710 --> 00:03:25,449 Speaker 1: by his side is Gibran Rab Booing RAA, the son 58 00:03:25,460 --> 00:03:29,009 Speaker 1: of outgoing president Joko Widodo. Can you tell me what 59 00:03:29,020 --> 00:03:32,660 Speaker 1: is turnout like for this pair at campaign events? Does 60 00:03:32,669 --> 00:03:36,949 Speaker 1: Prabowo come across as tender as his marketing team would like? Well, 61 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,380 Speaker 1: Prabowo is certainly the most experienced candidate having go through 62 00:03:40,389 --> 00:03:44,009 Speaker 1: the same election processes three times already. And so he 63 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:47,509 Speaker 1: already has that supporter base, those die hard fans which 64 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,830 Speaker 1: he cultivated in the previous two elections 65 00:03:50,089 --> 00:03:52,919 Speaker 1: and that voter base seems to expand now that he 66 00:03:52,929 --> 00:03:55,750 Speaker 1: is partnering with the son of his former rival. 67 00:03:56,380 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: But again, he's not a young man anymore. He's 72. 68 00:03:59,529 --> 00:04:02,820 Speaker 1: Now there are questions about his health which is why 69 00:04:02,830 --> 00:04:05,979 Speaker 1: his marketing team is trying to project this cute, adorable 70 00:04:05,990 --> 00:04:10,649 Speaker 1: childlike image that they keep using as t-shirts posters, banners 71 00:04:10,660 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: and social media content 72 00:04:12,820 --> 00:04:15,309 Speaker 1: in a way. His team is trying to rebrand him 73 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,109 Speaker 1: and take people's mind away from the fact that this 74 00:04:18,119 --> 00:04:20,678 Speaker 1: is a former general who has been accused of some 75 00:04:20,690 --> 00:04:23,549 Speaker 1: of the worst human rights abuses in the country. And 76 00:04:23,559 --> 00:04:26,470 Speaker 1: he has been trying to embrace this new image. He 77 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,309 Speaker 1: likes to end his alleys by dancing, shaking his hip, 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,549 Speaker 1: showing his moves, hopping from side to side. I guess 79 00:04:33,559 --> 00:04:36,230 Speaker 1: he's trying to show that he is as energetic as 80 00:04:36,238 --> 00:04:38,750 Speaker 1: he was five years ago. But then again, 81 00:04:39,170 --> 00:04:43,238 Speaker 1: he still likes to give fiery speeches to big campaign rallies. 82 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:43,988 Speaker 1: His speeches 83 00:04:44,649 --> 00:04:47,190 Speaker 1: to me, it felt like the one that a general 84 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,940 Speaker 1: would give before sending his troops into the battlefield, something 85 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:54,029 Speaker 1: like that. And during the debates, he still struggles to 86 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,669 Speaker 1: maintain his composure, keep his cool whenever he felt like 87 00:04:57,678 --> 00:05:00,769 Speaker 1: he's being attacked by his rivals. So I guess no 88 00:05:00,779 --> 00:05:03,500 Speaker 1: matter how hard his team is trying to rebrand Pablo, 89 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:06,660 Speaker 1: you can't really change his personality and people can see 90 00:05:06,670 --> 00:05:06,989 Speaker 1: that 91 00:05:07,649 --> 00:05:10,988 Speaker 1: it's interesting. His running mate is almost the opposite of that, right? 92 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,709 Speaker 1: Critics say Gibron is too young that he lacks experience 93 00:05:14,928 --> 00:05:18,230 Speaker 1: when you see him in person. Does he seem comfortable 94 00:05:18,238 --> 00:05:20,230 Speaker 1: or is he out of his element? 95 00:05:21,678 --> 00:05:25,260 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. G Brown to me is like the exact 96 00:05:25,269 --> 00:05:28,519 Speaker 1: opposite of Pabo. He's young. He's only 36 97 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:32,488 Speaker 1: and he's only been in the bureaucracy for the last 98 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:36,209 Speaker 1: three years as mayor of a relatively small city. But 99 00:05:36,220 --> 00:05:38,409 Speaker 1: he is the son of a very popular and much 100 00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:43,790 Speaker 1: beloved president. So the turnout wherever he went is quite huge. However, 101 00:05:43,799 --> 00:05:47,368 Speaker 1: his inexperience does show, I mean, his speeches felt a 102 00:05:47,380 --> 00:05:51,570 Speaker 1: little bit strenuous and rehearsed. He takes a long 103 00:05:52,149 --> 00:05:56,738 Speaker 1: awkward pauses between each sentence and he kept on repeating himself, 104 00:05:56,750 --> 00:06:00,178 Speaker 1: basically the same speech wherever and whenever he went to. 105 00:06:00,410 --> 00:06:02,618 Speaker 1: And of course, because he's been in the bureaucracy for 106 00:06:02,630 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: a brief period, he doesn't really say much about what 107 00:06:05,049 --> 00:06:09,049 Speaker 1: he has done, his accomplishment, his experience and all these 108 00:06:09,059 --> 00:06:12,859 Speaker 1: things are noticeably absent from his campaign speeches and remarks. 109 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,070 Speaker 1: So this pair are seen as the front runner right now, 110 00:06:17,079 --> 00:06:19,399 Speaker 1: but there are still hurdles for them. And one of 111 00:06:19,410 --> 00:06:23,399 Speaker 1: those hurdles is Gunnar Powo and his vice presidential running mate, 112 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:27,558 Speaker 1: Mahfoud MD Olivia Goar was initially viewed to be the 113 00:06:27,570 --> 00:06:30,308 Speaker 1: one to beat because he belongs to the same party 114 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,029 Speaker 1: as outgoing President Widodo. How would you describe their campaign 115 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,429 Speaker 1: so far? Well, I'd like to say that 116 00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:39,135 Speaker 1: uh it's such a privilege for me to get to 117 00:06:39,147 --> 00:06:42,976 Speaker 1: cover this on the ground and get the feel of 118 00:06:42,986 --> 00:06:47,386 Speaker 1: the pre election story in central Java itself. The province 119 00:06:47,397 --> 00:06:51,266 Speaker 1: is the third most populous in Indonesia after West Java 120 00:06:51,277 --> 00:06:55,307 Speaker 1: and East Java. It has more than 28 million registered 121 00:06:55,315 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: voters this year. So you can just imagine the political 122 00:06:58,247 --> 00:06:59,296 Speaker 1: buzz here 123 00:06:59,653 --> 00:07:04,153 Speaker 1: really tries hard to fight and win this big chunk 124 00:07:04,164 --> 00:07:07,523 Speaker 1: of pie. So as we know, Ganar is a former 125 00:07:07,533 --> 00:07:11,563 Speaker 1: governor for two straight terms and quite a popular one 126 00:07:11,834 --> 00:07:14,403 Speaker 1: I must add. So earlier this week, I started my 127 00:07:14,414 --> 00:07:17,854 Speaker 1: road trip in Samara, which is the provincial capital city. 128 00:07:18,033 --> 00:07:21,593 Speaker 1: This port city is known as the economic and business 129 00:07:21,604 --> 00:07:22,324 Speaker 1: hub of central 130 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,740 Speaker 1: Java. And I would say that Ganja being in office 131 00:07:26,751 --> 00:07:30,251 Speaker 1: for two straight terms under his leadership, he rolled out 132 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: quite a number of notable policies and health care, infrastructure 133 00:07:33,971 --> 00:07:37,890 Speaker 1: and bureaucratic reform. He's seen as a breath of fresh air, 134 00:07:37,901 --> 00:07:41,210 Speaker 1: an official who breaks down barriers and is in touch 135 00:07:41,221 --> 00:07:44,251 Speaker 1: with a small people in the Jese language, they're called won. 136 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:48,609 Speaker 1: So it's no wonder that Ganja was seen as the 137 00:07:48,619 --> 00:07:55,119 Speaker 1: natural successor to Jokowi. They both share the same leadership style. They, 138 00:07:55,220 --> 00:07:59,019 Speaker 1: they do frequent ban style which is unannounced visits and 139 00:07:59,029 --> 00:08:03,410 Speaker 1: had interactions with the people directly. So Guner initially led 140 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:07,059 Speaker 1: the early polls. But recent surveys obviously show a narrowing 141 00:08:07,154 --> 00:08:10,295 Speaker 1: gap between him and Prabowo. And that's mainly because of 142 00:08:10,575 --> 00:08:14,954 Speaker 1: Jokowi's leaning towards the Prabowo camp most evidently through the 143 00:08:14,964 --> 00:08:18,804 Speaker 1: nomination of Jokowi son Gibran as Prabowo's running mate. So 144 00:08:18,815 --> 00:08:21,515 Speaker 1: it's really neck and neck. Uh It's very interesting to 145 00:08:21,524 --> 00:08:24,864 Speaker 1: see how this all pans out central Java might began 146 00:08:25,065 --> 00:08:28,695 Speaker 1: Jar's last fortress as the campaign period draws an end. 147 00:08:29,589 --> 00:08:32,590 Speaker 1: And Syal your assignment has been to track Anis Basan 148 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: and Mohamed Iskandar and this pairing, they've been described as 149 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: an unexpected partnership because the two have different ideological and 150 00:08:41,969 --> 00:08:46,260 Speaker 1: religious interests as well. Can you unpack that for us? Well, 151 00:08:46,270 --> 00:08:50,109 Speaker 1: there is a religion in particular Islam is a big 152 00:08:50,119 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: factor in the presidential election or in any election for 153 00:08:53,770 --> 00:08:55,339 Speaker 1: that matter in Indonesia, 154 00:08:55,609 --> 00:08:58,500 Speaker 1: the country has the biggest Muslim population in the world. 155 00:08:58,510 --> 00:09:01,419 Speaker 1: So it's in the interest of any candidates in a 156 00:09:01,429 --> 00:09:04,348 Speaker 1: political contest to try and win the hearts and minds 157 00:09:04,359 --> 00:09:07,750 Speaker 1: of the Muslim electorate. Now the question then is how 158 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,409 Speaker 1: do these candidates attract the Muslim voters now an already 159 00:09:11,419 --> 00:09:14,579 Speaker 1: has the support of the majority of the conservative Muslims 160 00:09:14,590 --> 00:09:19,309 Speaker 1: in Indonesia. The prosperous Justice Party or PKS is part 161 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,429 Speaker 1: of the coalition that supports an his presidential candidacy. 162 00:09:22,659 --> 00:09:26,549 Speaker 1: The PKS is seen as the most religiously conservative political 163 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,909 Speaker 1: party but anice also needs to attract the more moderate 164 00:09:29,919 --> 00:09:33,510 Speaker 1: Muslims right. He has done so by making Muhammad is 165 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,409 Speaker 1: Kana as his running mate. Now, Muhammad is the head 166 00:09:36,419 --> 00:09:40,340 Speaker 1: of the National Party or PKB, which is the unofficial 167 00:09:40,349 --> 00:09:44,829 Speaker 1: political arm of Ulama or NU, which is the biggest 168 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,829 Speaker 1: Islamic organization in. 169 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,049 Speaker 1: It's estimated that and has 45 million members with the 170 00:09:51,059 --> 00:09:54,909 Speaker 1: majority of them in East Java province. Now PKB is 171 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: also a member of the coalition supporting honest now is 172 00:09:58,849 --> 00:10:02,020 Speaker 1: from Jong Bang in East Java. So he has significant 173 00:10:02,030 --> 00:10:04,539 Speaker 1: clout in the province which is considered as one of 174 00:10:04,549 --> 00:10:06,429 Speaker 1: the key battlegrounds in this election. 175 00:10:06,710 --> 00:10:09,449 Speaker 1: The other presidential candidates also want to win the and 176 00:10:09,460 --> 00:10:12,130 Speaker 1: new votes. Ganja also has a wild card in his 177 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:15,330 Speaker 1: running mate, Maud who is from Madura in his Java 178 00:10:15,390 --> 00:10:18,969 Speaker 1: and he has close ties with and you too. So 179 00:10:18,979 --> 00:10:21,770 Speaker 1: what about problem? He does not have a strong and 180 00:10:21,780 --> 00:10:25,039 Speaker 1: you figure on his ticket he's running mate. Giran is 181 00:10:25,049 --> 00:10:26,849 Speaker 1: not closely related to and you, 182 00:10:27,159 --> 00:10:30,630 Speaker 1: but the pr ran has the support of East Java, 183 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,429 Speaker 1: Governor Kofi in one who is also the former head 184 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,150 Speaker 1: of n women's wing. So we see that all three 185 00:10:38,159 --> 00:10:40,630 Speaker 1: presidential candidates are trying very hard to win the n 186 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,500 Speaker 1: new votes or the moderate Muslim votes. Even though the 187 00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:46,789 Speaker 1: leaders in Lama are supposed to be neutral, they cannot 188 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:49,190 Speaker 1: openly take sides. But we are seeing that the and 189 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:50,030 Speaker 1: new votes are split. 190 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,059 Speaker 1: There is a group of leaders who support honest, there 191 00:10:53,070 --> 00:10:55,270 Speaker 1: is another group of leaders who support gun out. And 192 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: there is a third group of leaders who support pr 193 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,950 Speaker 1: so it's hard to determine which candidate has the majority 194 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: of any votes. But if you look at the battle 195 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: in East Java, which is where any supporter base is located. 196 00:11:06,609 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: Recent surveys have shown that pr is currently the front 197 00:11:10,409 --> 00:11:12,900 Speaker 1: runner in that province so we can then make the 198 00:11:12,909 --> 00:11:12,968 Speaker 1: ass 199 00:11:13,340 --> 00:11:16,909 Speaker 1: that a majority of these nu voters are going to 200 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:20,130 Speaker 1: the Pr Gibran. You know, we talked about the candidates 201 00:11:20,140 --> 00:11:23,299 Speaker 1: off the top working social media syle, that's how they 202 00:11:23,309 --> 00:11:25,609 Speaker 1: want to reach voters, but they're also doing it the 203 00:11:25,619 --> 00:11:28,729 Speaker 1: old fashioned way too, right by talking to people face 204 00:11:28,739 --> 00:11:31,570 Speaker 1: to face. And I know you attended a dialogue session 205 00:11:31,580 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: with Anis called challenge Anis. Why did that event stand 206 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:36,130 Speaker 1: out for you? 207 00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:39,500 Speaker 1: Well, Theresa, firstly in Indonesia, the session is called the 208 00:11:40,109 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: which means challenge. Honest. I think this event stood out 209 00:11:43,289 --> 00:11:46,929 Speaker 1: as something novel in this year's presidential election campaign. I 210 00:11:46,940 --> 00:11:49,569 Speaker 1: believe this is the first time such a dialogue session 211 00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:53,189 Speaker 1: is being held ever since. Direct elections began in Indonesia 212 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,569 Speaker 1: in 24 now and has been organizing these dialogue sessions 213 00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:58,150 Speaker 1: across the country since 214 00:11:58,616 --> 00:12:02,574 Speaker 1: began on 28th, November last year. I had the opportunity 215 00:12:02,585 --> 00:12:05,955 Speaker 1: to attend a challenge on session in Jakarta recently. And 216 00:12:05,966 --> 00:12:09,846 Speaker 1: my first impression when I stepped into the venue was wow, 217 00:12:09,856 --> 00:12:13,116 Speaker 1: so many people but and not only so many people, 218 00:12:13,125 --> 00:12:16,215 Speaker 1: there were so many young people. So the public are 219 00:12:16,226 --> 00:12:19,265 Speaker 1: really interested and curious to attend these dialogue sessions and 220 00:12:19,276 --> 00:12:20,295 Speaker 1: they are very eager 221 00:12:20,452 --> 00:12:23,421 Speaker 1: to also participate and ask questions. How many people do 222 00:12:23,432 --> 00:12:27,111 Speaker 1: you think were there? At least a few 1000 Theresa. 223 00:12:27,122 --> 00:12:30,091 Speaker 1: The setup of the session is also interesting. The session 224 00:12:30,101 --> 00:12:34,202 Speaker 1: has an informal setting where an and a moderator will 225 00:12:34,211 --> 00:12:36,442 Speaker 1: sit on a small stage in the middle of the 226 00:12:36,452 --> 00:12:39,081 Speaker 1: room and they will be surrounded by the audience. Now 227 00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:42,202 Speaker 1: this each session is attended by different groups of people 228 00:12:42,211 --> 00:12:42,392 Speaker 1: and 229 00:12:42,659 --> 00:12:46,010 Speaker 1: they usually last about 90 minutes. Now an has engaged 230 00:12:46,020 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: various groups like students, health care workers, women groups and 231 00:12:50,530 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: even farmers throughout the election campaign. 232 00:12:53,229 --> 00:12:56,369 Speaker 1: Participants were also not shy to pose questions, to honest. 233 00:12:56,380 --> 00:12:59,479 Speaker 1: And now you may be wondering also if these questions 234 00:12:59,489 --> 00:13:02,820 Speaker 1: are actually planted by the organizers who will only choose 235 00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:06,210 Speaker 1: certain members of the audience to ask questions, to prevent 236 00:13:06,219 --> 00:13:10,289 Speaker 1: honest from being caught off guard by some maybe strange questions. Well, 237 00:13:10,309 --> 00:13:13,919 Speaker 1: an has given the assurance on many occasions that questions 238 00:13:13,929 --> 00:13:18,010 Speaker 1: in the dialogue sessions are not planted nor manipulated. The challenge, 239 00:13:18,020 --> 00:13:20,929 Speaker 1: any sessions was also so popular that other candidates also 240 00:13:20,940 --> 00:13:22,479 Speaker 1: began to start similar sessions. 241 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,869 Speaker 1: Vice presidential candidate M MD started his own informal dialogue 242 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: session called prof which means hit prof encouraging participants to 243 00:13:31,690 --> 00:13:34,609 Speaker 1: hit him with questions. But my food of course has 244 00:13:34,619 --> 00:13:37,109 Speaker 1: come out to say that his hit prof dialogue session 245 00:13:37,119 --> 00:13:40,390 Speaker 1: was not a copy of challenge honest now and has 246 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,700 Speaker 1: also lamented that it was getting harder to find venues 247 00:13:43,710 --> 00:13:46,590 Speaker 1: willing to host his challenge on his sessions after some 248 00:13:46,599 --> 00:13:46,979 Speaker 1: of them 249 00:13:47,250 --> 00:13:50,349 Speaker 1: were canceled by the owner of the venue who claimed 250 00:13:50,359 --> 00:13:53,150 Speaker 1: that the organizers did not disclose in their permit application 251 00:13:53,159 --> 00:13:56,260 Speaker 1: that Anis would appear at the event. Yeah, sel you 252 00:13:56,270 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: talk about seeing large crowds and in those crowds are 253 00:13:58,849 --> 00:14:01,619 Speaker 1: a lot of young people, right? Neville, in terms of 254 00:14:01,630 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: voter demographic, there is what some are calling a seismic 255 00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:08,909 Speaker 1: shift happening this year. Young voters, they're front and center, 256 00:14:08,919 --> 00:14:12,669 Speaker 1: they make up 52% of the voter base. That's just amazing. 257 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,819 Speaker 1: Now, I was looking at the candidates, social media accounts 258 00:14:15,830 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: and I saw them doing tiktok dances. I saw young 259 00:14:18,849 --> 00:14:21,989 Speaker 1: women blowing kisses to the camera to support their pick. 260 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,150 Speaker 1: I saw memes but does all of this really translate 261 00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:29,020 Speaker 1: into votes. Well, not necessarily. Well, it is true that 262 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:32,140 Speaker 1: young people get most of their information from social media. 263 00:14:32,559 --> 00:14:36,409 Speaker 1: You can only get partial information. Social media doesn't do 264 00:14:36,419 --> 00:14:40,369 Speaker 1: a good job at communicating, for example, like complex ideas 265 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:44,090 Speaker 1: or who these people really are. And these young voters 266 00:14:44,099 --> 00:14:47,099 Speaker 1: can see that because because they grow up using social 267 00:14:47,109 --> 00:14:49,539 Speaker 1: media and they know people behave differently on social 268 00:14:49,614 --> 00:14:52,825 Speaker 1: media than in real life. So I recently talked to 269 00:14:52,835 --> 00:14:56,315 Speaker 1: social media analyst, Mr Ismail Fahmy and he told me 270 00:14:56,325 --> 00:15:01,025 Speaker 1: that how candidates can engage their followers matters more than 271 00:15:01,275 --> 00:15:05,434 Speaker 1: some well polished, overly produced social media content. And here's 272 00:15:05,445 --> 00:15:06,554 Speaker 1: my interview with him, 273 00:15:09,989 --> 00:15:13,559 Speaker 2: millennials and Gen Z. They like things to be interactive 274 00:15:13,570 --> 00:15:17,190 Speaker 2: and not superficial. They want natural interaction where they can 275 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,380 Speaker 2: have a dialogue as equals online campaigns like video streaming 276 00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:25,619 Speaker 2: and interaction on Tik Tok have limitations in terms of communication. 277 00:15:25,909 --> 00:15:30,030 Speaker 2: The questions cannot be comprehensive. That's why online is limited 278 00:15:30,039 --> 00:15:32,349 Speaker 2: to light positive and fun content. 279 00:15:32,630 --> 00:15:36,239 Speaker 2: But that is not enough, Gen Z demographically are already 280 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: university graduates and college students and they are smart gimmicks 281 00:15:39,969 --> 00:15:41,570 Speaker 2: alone are not enough for them. 282 00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:45,690 Speaker 1: And one danger with all of this online content. Olivia 283 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: is the very real challenge of misinformation and as a journalist, 284 00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:52,799 Speaker 1: that's a fight that many of us are battling right now. 285 00:15:53,109 --> 00:15:56,390 Speaker 1: You actually had the chance to observe how fact checking 286 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,469 Speaker 1: happens real time during the Indonesia Vice Presidential debate. Tell 287 00:16:00,479 --> 00:16:04,530 Speaker 1: us about that. It was such an eye opening session. 288 00:16:04,539 --> 00:16:09,690 Speaker 1: It was like sitting in the midst of investigators like 289 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:13,270 Speaker 1: uh CIA type thing, but we're working to crack down 290 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: on disinformation trying to chase like the culprits and, and 291 00:16:17,409 --> 00:16:20,719 Speaker 1: flash them out real facts. Like we would debunk a 292 00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:21,049 Speaker 1: lot of 293 00:16:21,148 --> 00:16:23,937 Speaker 1: the things that were said during the live debate. In 294 00:16:23,947 --> 00:16:26,768 Speaker 1: this case, I was sitting in a live debate of 295 00:16:26,778 --> 00:16:31,088 Speaker 1: the vice presidential campaign and it was Gibran speaking, there 296 00:16:31,098 --> 00:16:35,208 Speaker 1: was Mahut speaking and there was Muhaimin speaking. So I 297 00:16:35,218 --> 00:16:38,367 Speaker 1: could see like how everything is so well organized. It 298 00:16:38,377 --> 00:16:42,797 Speaker 1: was run by the Aso Jis independent, the alliance of 299 00:16:42,807 --> 00:16:45,958 Speaker 1: independent journalists ai. So there, I think it's not their 300 00:16:45,968 --> 00:16:49,088 Speaker 1: first foray, they've done this before. So yeah, I mean, 301 00:16:49,185 --> 00:16:51,716 Speaker 1: they're, they're super organized and I can see this trend 302 00:16:51,796 --> 00:16:57,995 Speaker 1: of trying to like debunk, misinformation, disinformation and malformation going 303 00:16:58,005 --> 00:17:00,726 Speaker 1: to be like an sop like it's a standard of 304 00:17:00,736 --> 00:17:05,475 Speaker 1: practice for journalism and general elections in the future. Maybe 305 00:17:05,484 --> 00:17:10,265 Speaker 1: one interesting incident was that, oh, here we are battling disinformation, 306 00:17:10,276 --> 00:17:14,406 Speaker 1: but our number one enemy is actually internet connection. The 307 00:17:14,416 --> 00:17:16,765 Speaker 1: infrastructure is not really up to smash. 308 00:17:17,223 --> 00:17:19,513 Speaker 1: There was one moment when the screen went blank, it 309 00:17:19,523 --> 00:17:22,203 Speaker 1: was all frozen and everyone's like looking at each other. OK. 310 00:17:22,213 --> 00:17:24,163 Speaker 1: What do we do now? What do we do? We 311 00:17:24,173 --> 00:17:27,523 Speaker 1: missed probably a good two minutes of the debate. But yeah, it's, 312 00:17:27,534 --> 00:17:29,784 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting thing and I can see this 313 00:17:29,792 --> 00:17:33,604 Speaker 1: trend moving forward for Indonesia. So they debunk as the 314 00:17:33,614 --> 00:17:36,373 Speaker 1: debate is happening. Exactly. And then they would just post 315 00:17:36,384 --> 00:17:40,874 Speaker 1: things on their social media platforms. They work with different 316 00:17:40,884 --> 00:17:45,163 Speaker 1: journalists from credible independent media. There were about 20 317 00:17:45,261 --> 00:17:47,251 Speaker 1: 30 journalists in the same room and I was just 318 00:17:47,261 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: there observing, but I'm just proud to be part of 319 00:17:49,932 --> 00:17:53,562 Speaker 1: the journalist network in Indonesia as well. And I bumped 320 00:17:53,571 --> 00:17:56,232 Speaker 1: into you Olivia in the office here in Singapore the 321 00:17:56,241 --> 00:17:58,791 Speaker 1: day before you flew out to Indonesia for this assignment. 322 00:17:58,802 --> 00:18:02,052 Speaker 1: And we were talking about the core of what drives 323 00:18:02,061 --> 00:18:05,182 Speaker 1: people to vote for certain candidates. I know you grew 324 00:18:05,192 --> 00:18:07,692 Speaker 1: up in Jakarta and you told me how race and 325 00:18:07,702 --> 00:18:11,842 Speaker 1: identity politics used to be a huge factor, but now 326 00:18:11,852 --> 00:18:13,161 Speaker 1: you're not so convinced. 327 00:18:13,780 --> 00:18:17,219 Speaker 1: No, I think the past 23 elections 328 00:18:17,709 --> 00:18:21,729 Speaker 1: where we saw some people trying to use the race card, 329 00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:25,329 Speaker 1: religious card. It, it doesn't work anymore. In this time around, 330 00:18:25,339 --> 00:18:28,649 Speaker 1: I spoke to many different political analysts and academics and 331 00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:31,709 Speaker 1: they say people are more mature. I think democracy in 332 00:18:31,719 --> 00:18:36,569 Speaker 1: Indonesia has, has gone one level higher and people can 333 00:18:36,699 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 1: understand like which factors appeal to them the most. And 334 00:18:40,969 --> 00:18:43,629 Speaker 1: race and religion is not so much of a big factor. 335 00:18:43,869 --> 00:18:44,889 Speaker 1: It's more the 336 00:18:44,964 --> 00:18:49,905 Speaker 1: misinformation about people's misstep, people's slip of tongue during the 337 00:18:49,915 --> 00:18:53,694 Speaker 1: presidential debates had become a discussion and and a weapon 338 00:18:53,704 --> 00:18:58,035 Speaker 1: of attack to discredit competitors. So I spoke to one 339 00:18:58,045 --> 00:19:02,125 Speaker 1: professor from Monash University, Indonesia Dr Ia Idris. And she 340 00:19:02,135 --> 00:19:07,334 Speaker 1: had a very interesting observation saying that misinformation buzzers, political 341 00:19:07,344 --> 00:19:12,104 Speaker 1: buzzers become a new form of entrepreneurship. Let's have a listen, 342 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:16,099 Speaker 1: fake news, uh entrepreneurs. Oh, there are more of them. 343 00:19:16,150 --> 00:19:21,260 Speaker 1: In the 2019 they were hired by uh organization that 344 00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: support uh politicians, but now they know that they can 345 00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:28,010 Speaker 1: make money from it and then they make their own 346 00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:31,550 Speaker 1: businesses so it's more competitive. Yeah. And then when I 347 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: talked to one of them, uh they said like it's, 348 00:19:35,530 --> 00:19:36,290 Speaker 1: it's pure business. 349 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: It's no longer even though we don't like the candidates, 350 00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:42,989 Speaker 1: but if they can bring money. So the business is 351 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,489 Speaker 1: growing right now. So Saiful, what's your take, Ines played 352 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:49,290 Speaker 1: the race card in his bid to become Jakarta governor 353 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:52,599 Speaker 1: in 2017. And it worked. It's seen as what led 354 00:19:52,609 --> 00:19:57,729 Speaker 1: him to beat Christian Chinese Indonesian contender Basuki Jhay Purnama, 355 00:19:57,739 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: popularly known as a hook in the election. Do you 356 00:20:00,810 --> 00:20:03,079 Speaker 1: think he's going to pull that card out again? What's 357 00:20:03,089 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: the biggest issue on voters' minds do you think? 358 00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: Well, there is, I would say that identity politics is 359 00:20:09,569 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 1: not the biggest issue weighing on voters minds in this 360 00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:17,050 Speaker 1: year's election. I think people are more concerned about how 361 00:20:17,060 --> 00:20:20,260 Speaker 1: the next president is going to improve their livelihood for 362 00:20:20,270 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: many Tunisians is about survival. It's about how they can 363 00:20:23,449 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: get by the next day now, that's why POW is 364 00:20:25,930 --> 00:20:29,300 Speaker 1: telling voters like that. He will give them free lunches 365 00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:32,530 Speaker 1: and free milk for Children. If he gets elected as president, 366 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:33,958 Speaker 1: it's as basic as that. 367 00:20:34,250 --> 00:20:38,030 Speaker 1: I don't think an will specifically play the religious or 368 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,449 Speaker 1: racial cuts or what is known as identity politics in 369 00:20:41,459 --> 00:20:45,310 Speaker 1: this election. The reason why identity politics may not be 370 00:20:45,319 --> 00:20:49,530 Speaker 1: so prominent this time is because firstly, all three pairs 371 00:20:49,540 --> 00:20:52,390 Speaker 1: of candidates are Muslims. There is no chance there is 372 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,790 Speaker 1: also no chance for any candidates to attack their opponents 373 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,089 Speaker 1: on the basis of them being less Islamic because each 374 00:20:59,099 --> 00:21:00,250 Speaker 1: pair of candidates are 375 00:21:00,319 --> 00:21:03,930 Speaker 1: supported by strong Islamic figures. As I've mentioned earlier, an 376 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:06,099 Speaker 1: has Moin as his running mate who is the head 377 00:21:06,109 --> 00:21:10,050 Speaker 1: of the national awakening party. Pra has the nose of 378 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:12,729 Speaker 1: FIFA in that one who is the head of the 379 00:21:12,739 --> 00:21:16,180 Speaker 1: nu women's wing, Ganar has my food as his running 380 00:21:16,189 --> 00:21:18,979 Speaker 1: mate who has close ties with and you. So the 381 00:21:18,989 --> 00:21:23,390 Speaker 1: situation is unlike in 2017, when Anne was up against 382 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,500 Speaker 1: a Ho who is a Christian and Chinese Indonesian. 383 00:21:26,829 --> 00:21:30,619 Speaker 1: Secondly, this year's presidential election is a three horse race. 384 00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: So the probability of candidates using identity politics is less 385 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:38,979 Speaker 1: compared when it's a direct contest between two candidates which 386 00:21:38,989 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: is usually more competitive now. And thirdly, the role of 387 00:21:42,569 --> 00:21:45,290 Speaker 1: Islamist has been less significant in the run up to 388 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:47,810 Speaker 1: the 2024 presidential election. 389 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:51,170 Speaker 1: Their political power has been weakening because they have been 390 00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: targeted by the state. For example, hardline groups such as 391 00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: the Islamic defenders front or FBI have now been disbanded 392 00:21:59,229 --> 00:22:03,219 Speaker 1: and an has always been accused of using identity politics 393 00:22:03,229 --> 00:22:06,319 Speaker 1: in his bid right to become Jakarta governor in 2017 394 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,420 Speaker 1: by mobilizing the masses of Islamic conservative groups. However, this 395 00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:13,709 Speaker 1: is something which an has consistently denied 396 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: and he tends to get visibly annoyed. Every time reporters 397 00:22:17,290 --> 00:22:20,900 Speaker 1: ask him this question about identity politics, it's a label 398 00:22:20,910 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: which she has been trying to hard to shrug off 399 00:22:23,050 --> 00:22:26,099 Speaker 1: to be fair to him. And in my interview with an, 400 00:22:26,140 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: he said that he's not only close with conservative Islamic groups, 401 00:22:30,410 --> 00:22:33,219 Speaker 1: but he's also close with so many other groups like 402 00:22:33,229 --> 00:22:37,420 Speaker 1: the Christians, the Buddhists people with disabilities and so on. 403 00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:41,238 Speaker 1: And also said that the number of permits issued for 404 00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:45,010 Speaker 1: places of worship was the highest when he was Jakarta governor. 405 00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:48,839 Speaker 1: And there was also no significant rejection by minority groups 406 00:22:48,849 --> 00:22:51,250 Speaker 1: against is when he was Jakarta governor. 407 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: But we also must not forget that an is not 408 00:22:54,050 --> 00:22:58,649 Speaker 1: the only one who allegedly used the identity politics playing 409 00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:01,219 Speaker 1: the religious and racial cards are common especially in a 410 00:23:01,229 --> 00:23:06,219 Speaker 1: political contest in Indonesia. Remember in 2019, Prabowo was also 411 00:23:06,229 --> 00:23:08,020 Speaker 1: accused of using identity politics 412 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,420 Speaker 1: when he fought against Jokowi during the presidential election. That 413 00:23:12,430 --> 00:23:17,619 Speaker 1: 2019 presidential election was considered the most divisive in Indonesian history. 414 00:23:17,810 --> 00:23:22,530 Speaker 1: Prabowo allegedly also mobilized the masses of conservative Islamic groups 415 00:23:22,540 --> 00:23:24,619 Speaker 1: to help him during that election. 416 00:23:25,229 --> 00:23:29,500 Speaker 1: Looking ahead guys, if no single candidate receives more than 417 00:23:29,579 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: half the votes in February. There is going to be 418 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: a second round runoff between the 1st and 2nd place 419 00:23:35,449 --> 00:23:39,129 Speaker 1: candidates in June. I want to know how likely do 420 00:23:39,140 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: you think that's going to happen? I want to start 421 00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:44,819 Speaker 1: with you, Neville. It's hard to say even now with 422 00:23:44,829 --> 00:23:48,270 Speaker 1: the election just a few days away. Yes. Every pollster 423 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,489 Speaker 1: put PBO in the lead and his eyeballs are trailing behind, 424 00:23:52,030 --> 00:23:55,050 Speaker 1: but some pollsters stated he will secure more than 50% 425 00:23:55,060 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: of the votes. Some pollsters put his electability at 4745 426 00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:03,739 Speaker 1: or even 43% which means it will go into the 427 00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:07,219 Speaker 1: second round run off. And there is still that question 428 00:24:07,229 --> 00:24:10,989 Speaker 1: of who this undecided voters will vote for and the 429 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: number is around 5 to 6%. So I guess we'll 430 00:24:14,369 --> 00:24:16,810 Speaker 1: just have to wait and see what happens. Olivia, 431 00:24:17,189 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: I've asked the same question to every political analyst and 432 00:24:21,369 --> 00:24:24,379 Speaker 1: guest that I speak to and their answer is the 433 00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:27,969 Speaker 1: same if someone comes as the bottom of the chart. 434 00:24:27,979 --> 00:24:31,589 Speaker 1: In this case, pollsters quite in consensus saying it's gonna 435 00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:36,569 Speaker 1: be Ganja and Maud. So that means Rabo Gibran and 436 00:24:37,869 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: Anis Moja 437 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,550 Speaker 1: would go head to head. Yeah. Yeah. And this is 438 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,349 Speaker 1: going to be interesting because the PD IP ruling party 439 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: which backs Ganja Ranno, they have huge base of supporters. 440 00:24:48,689 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: And so the wild card would be on the hands 441 00:24:51,209 --> 00:24:54,329 Speaker 1: of Ibu Megawati, Sukarno Putri, the head of the PD 442 00:24:54,339 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: IP Party on who she wants to vote for or 443 00:24:57,930 --> 00:24:59,420 Speaker 1: support Saiful. 444 00:25:00,209 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: Well, if we go by recent surveys right from various pollsters, 445 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:07,939 Speaker 1: then it's unlikely there will be a clear winner on 446 00:25:07,949 --> 00:25:11,109 Speaker 1: 14th February and we will all be talking about the 447 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,189 Speaker 1: presidential election again the next few months leading to the runoff. 448 00:25:15,199 --> 00:25:18,438 Speaker 1: As what Niel, as earlier mentioned, some of these polls 449 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:21,129 Speaker 1: show that PR ran are still the front runners in 450 00:25:21,140 --> 00:25:24,899 Speaker 1: the race, but the electability has been stagnant, hovering around 451 00:25:24,910 --> 00:25:27,449 Speaker 1: 40 plus percent. So this is not enough for them 452 00:25:27,459 --> 00:25:28,859 Speaker 1: to win in just one round, right. 453 00:25:29,130 --> 00:25:32,270 Speaker 1: The P Giran team has been pushing very hard for 454 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,500 Speaker 1: an outright win on 14th February to avoid a runoff. 455 00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:38,949 Speaker 1: And this is because there is a possibility that they 456 00:25:38,959 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: will lose in a runoff election. There is a possibility 457 00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:44,708 Speaker 1: that an and Gunda may gang up to fight against 458 00:25:45,189 --> 00:25:48,390 Speaker 1: in the runoff. Even online activists have also come up 459 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,380 Speaker 1: with the four fingers movement to encourage people not to 460 00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:55,909 Speaker 1: vote for Pr Giran, but to vote for either of 461 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,510 Speaker 1: the other two candidates instead, 462 00:25:57,890 --> 00:26:00,349 Speaker 1: they said that Pr Giran is not worthy of the 463 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,109 Speaker 1: people's votes, given the various constitutional and legal maneuverings that 464 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,270 Speaker 1: the pair has committed. The four fingers also refer to 465 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,290 Speaker 1: democracy as the fourth principle of Pancha Sila, which is 466 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:16,569 Speaker 1: the country's national ideology and an international signal for help. 467 00:26:16,579 --> 00:26:19,170 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of ST if a Pr Giran 468 00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:21,150 Speaker 1: loses the election. And that's why 469 00:26:21,540 --> 00:26:25,170 Speaker 1: the pair and everyone behind them, including Joko, we want 470 00:26:25,180 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: to win the election in just one round because if 471 00:26:28,689 --> 00:26:32,810 Speaker 1: Pr who is already 72 years old loses again for 472 00:26:32,819 --> 00:26:35,419 Speaker 1: the third time, it will probably be the end of 473 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:37,339 Speaker 1: his political career. Observing 474 00:26:37,474 --> 00:26:41,094 Speaker 1: also said that Jokowi has put in so much effort 475 00:26:41,104 --> 00:26:45,625 Speaker 1: to marshal support and committed various political maneuverings to try 476 00:26:45,635 --> 00:26:48,964 Speaker 1: and secure victory for Pr and his son Iran. Right? 477 00:26:49,084 --> 00:26:53,854 Speaker 1: And if Pr still loses, despite all this effort, it 478 00:26:53,864 --> 00:26:57,754 Speaker 1: may also signal the end of Jokowi. Well, the countdown 479 00:26:57,765 --> 00:27:00,425 Speaker 1: to February 14th is on, I know you guys are 480 00:27:00,435 --> 00:27:02,694 Speaker 1: going to be very busy from now until then. And 481 00:27:02,704 --> 00:27:05,574 Speaker 1: so I really appreciate your time today. Thank you, Theresa. 482 00:27:06,104 --> 00:27:06,844 Speaker 1: Thanks Teresa. 483 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:09,979 Speaker 1: Be sure to watch our coverage of the Indonesia election 484 00:27:09,989 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: on CN A and catch TV, episodes of CN A 485 00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:17,239 Speaker 1: correspondent every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Also find the latest 486 00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: news any time at CN A dot Asia. The team 487 00:27:20,410 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: behind this week's edition is Sya Win Clara Ong Christina Robert, 488 00:27:24,770 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: Craig Dale and myself, Teresa Tang. Thanks for joining us.