1 00:00:03,269 --> 00:00:05,599 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:07,809 --> 00:00:10,659 Speaker 1: So, hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Deep Dive, 3 00:00:10,670 --> 00:00:13,569 Speaker 1: Steven and Christina with you today. And it's all about 4 00:00:13,579 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: kids or rather the lack of them. Yes, we are 5 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:20,790 Speaker 1: talking about our total fertility rate and it's very low 6 00:00:21,020 --> 00:00:23,409 Speaker 1: to the point that we're not even replacing ourselves. I 7 00:00:23,420 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: don't know. I've done my part. I've got two kids 8 00:00:25,290 --> 00:00:27,260 Speaker 1: in total. What about you? So have I, 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,630 Speaker 1: but it seems that for kids are the new norm. Yes. Yes. 10 00:00:32,639 --> 00:00:35,029 Speaker 1: For kids are the new norm. No Children, pets. Instead 11 00:00:35,049 --> 00:00:40,208 Speaker 1: it's made me pause and think about it. Why are 12 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:41,799 Speaker 1: they doing that? I mean, I mean, kids can be 13 00:00:41,810 --> 00:00:43,540 Speaker 1: challenging but there are a whole lot of fun and 14 00:00:43,770 --> 00:00:46,979 Speaker 1: I can't imagine life without them now. Yeah, exactly. I mean, 15 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:50,189 Speaker 1: having kids is a very personal choice but it's almost 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,540 Speaker 1: like it's a butterfly effect because it has such a 17 00:00:52,549 --> 00:00:55,540 Speaker 1: deep impact on the country. Our total fertility 18 00:00:55,784 --> 00:00:59,985 Speaker 1: rate has fallen to a record low this year below one. Right. 19 00:00:59,994 --> 00:01:02,915 Speaker 1: So we're not even replacing ourselves and they've tried a 20 00:01:02,924 --> 00:01:06,665 Speaker 1: bunch of things, cash handouts, parenthood schemes, more child care 21 00:01:06,675 --> 00:01:10,244 Speaker 1: leave but nothing seems to be sticking. So, is there 22 00:01:10,254 --> 00:01:11,884 Speaker 1: a solution? What will work 23 00:01:12,839 --> 00:01:16,139 Speaker 1: to help us with this discussion today we have in studio, 24 00:01:16,150 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Professor of Psychology at the Singapore Management University. Doctor Norman Lee, 25 00:01:20,769 --> 00:01:23,370 Speaker 1: who's also a father of two. That's right. Right. Yeah, 26 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:27,779 Speaker 1: that's right, Norman, thanks and Holly FVP, network strategy and 27 00:01:27,790 --> 00:01:31,650 Speaker 1: expansion at Aspire. And she's a mother of one. That's right. 28 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:34,489 Speaker 1: One and done one. And you see, we started the 29 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:37,220 Speaker 1: discussion already one and I'm saying one and maybe one more. 30 00:01:39,580 --> 00:01:42,750 Speaker 1: Let's get Norman, maybe you start because we've been looking 31 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,629 Speaker 1: at this issue for some time now. It's a topic 32 00:01:44,639 --> 00:01:46,878 Speaker 1: that you're familiar with. Give us the one on one. 33 00:01:46,889 --> 00:01:49,639 Speaker 1: Why are so many countries in the world suffering from 34 00:01:49,650 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: such low fertility rates? Well, it's an interesting question and 35 00:01:54,010 --> 00:01:56,459 Speaker 1: then one that a lot of people have been looking at, 36 00:01:56,470 --> 00:01:59,610 Speaker 1: but there are not any definitive answers, but it has 37 00:01:59,620 --> 00:02:02,589 Speaker 1: something to do with modernity because these are the modern 38 00:02:02,900 --> 00:02:07,209 Speaker 1: countries at the forefront of development and technology 39 00:02:07,730 --> 00:02:11,350 Speaker 1: and economic progress. So these countries are having the least 40 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,410 Speaker 1: amount of Children and within these countries, it's the wealthiest 41 00:02:14,419 --> 00:02:18,149 Speaker 1: individuals who are having the least amount of Children as well. 42 00:02:18,490 --> 00:02:20,949 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's not really all due to a money 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,699 Speaker 1: problem because these are wealthy countries, wealthy individuals. So we 44 00:02:24,710 --> 00:02:27,270 Speaker 1: have to kind of step outside that financial 45 00:02:28,110 --> 00:02:32,279 Speaker 1: paradigm and look to other factors. My students collaborators and 46 00:02:32,288 --> 00:02:35,609 Speaker 1: I have been looking at different psychological factors related to 47 00:02:35,619 --> 00:02:37,699 Speaker 1: an evolutionary perspective. I think we have to look at 48 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:42,049 Speaker 1: things that increase our stress and, and take us away 49 00:02:42,059 --> 00:02:44,940 Speaker 1: from natural environments. So, for instance, if you look at 50 00:02:45,229 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: animals in zoos, they have a tough time getting them 51 00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:52,089 Speaker 1: to breed, right? Because they're, you know, oftentimes living in 52 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:55,888 Speaker 1: environments at them. Yeah. Exactly. We're looking at them so that, 53 00:02:55,899 --> 00:02:57,210 Speaker 1: that's not natural. But 54 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,169 Speaker 1: if their conditions, are there any deviation versus them being 55 00:03:01,279 --> 00:03:04,539 Speaker 1: out in the jungle free? And exactly. Ok. So, so 56 00:03:04,630 --> 00:03:06,979 Speaker 1: in a way similar to us, because we're trapped in 57 00:03:06,990 --> 00:03:09,369 Speaker 1: this work environment, we have to go to work and money, 58 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:11,869 Speaker 1: take care of the, bring home the bacon, put food 59 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,729 Speaker 1: on the table, that kind of thing. So that's for free. Yeah, 60 00:03:15,740 --> 00:03:18,820 Speaker 1: there's no time for free play to roam around or 61 00:03:18,830 --> 00:03:21,899 Speaker 1: interacting with devices and strangers now and not 62 00:03:22,339 --> 00:03:25,690 Speaker 1: our family and familiar friends and people like that. We're 63 00:03:25,699 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: facing population densities of up to 10,000 times higher than 64 00:03:30,410 --> 00:03:33,589 Speaker 1: what we're, our brains are actually built for. And so 65 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,250 Speaker 1: this creates a lot of stress. And when this happens, 66 00:03:37,259 --> 00:03:40,309 Speaker 1: all organisms including humans tend to go away from mating 67 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:41,130 Speaker 1: and reproduction 68 00:03:41,979 --> 00:03:44,869 Speaker 1: when they are stressed when they stress. I was looking 69 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,130 Speaker 1: at the top three with very low fertility, Taiwan clocks 70 00:03:49,139 --> 00:03:51,630 Speaker 1: in right at the top, followed by South Korea and 71 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:54,070 Speaker 1: of course Singapore clocks in at number three. So you 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: were talking about advanced economies Right. 73 00:03:56,669 --> 00:04:00,679 Speaker 1: I think it's also about opportunity because you have the 74 00:04:00,690 --> 00:04:03,899 Speaker 1: opportunity to go out and have a career. For example, Holly, 75 00:04:04,059 --> 00:04:06,669 Speaker 1: I've had you on a podcast before and you were 76 00:04:06,679 --> 00:04:09,509 Speaker 1: talking about some of the choices you had to make 77 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,250 Speaker 1: when it came to your career. So why are you 78 00:04:12,259 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: so sure about the one and 79 00:04:13,610 --> 00:04:16,100 Speaker 2: done? So, I, I do identify quite a bit with 80 00:04:16,109 --> 00:04:18,049 Speaker 2: what Dr Lee said about. Um, 81 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,229 Speaker 2: I guess I don't see it as stress. I see 82 00:04:20,238 --> 00:04:25,559 Speaker 2: it as choice. So for me, career spending a long 83 00:04:25,570 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: time playing with my phone, pursuing hobbies, I do see 84 00:04:29,450 --> 00:04:31,089 Speaker 2: that there's a lot of things that I want to 85 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:33,988 Speaker 2: have more time to do and being a mother of 86 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,119 Speaker 2: just one boy already, I feel so deprived of other 87 00:04:37,130 --> 00:04:39,700 Speaker 2: aspects of my life. I just cannot imagine 88 00:04:40,089 --> 00:04:41,940 Speaker 2: um having another one come 89 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: along. So it's more because you want your me time back. 90 00:04:45,029 --> 00:04:47,459 Speaker 2: Yes. My me time to do, you know, just laser 91 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:50,459 Speaker 2: online in bed and play my phone and also me 92 00:04:50,470 --> 00:04:52,940 Speaker 2: time to pursue my career to do more, to spend 93 00:04:52,950 --> 00:04:54,959 Speaker 2: more time thinking about what I want to get out 94 00:04:54,970 --> 00:04:57,510 Speaker 2: of work. Also me time doing things that I like 95 00:04:57,519 --> 00:05:01,269 Speaker 2: outside of both. Then I think maybe also evolutionarily we 96 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,230 Speaker 2: are getting a little bit more selfish than our parents 97 00:05:04,238 --> 00:05:07,070 Speaker 2: and grandparents generation where they really do see the family 98 00:05:07,079 --> 00:05:07,630 Speaker 2: giving 99 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:11,149 Speaker 2: back as, as a part of, of who they should be. 100 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Actually women in an IP S survey, more 101 00:05:15,010 --> 00:05:18,630 Speaker 1: women said that they are ok with being even single 102 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,179 Speaker 1: and if they wanted to settle down kids were not 103 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: really that important. Are you surprised by that? Doctor Norman? Well, 104 00:05:26,730 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: it is a little bit surprising because that's not how 105 00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:31,079 Speaker 1: it's been throughout human history. But, 106 00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: but some of these trends are due to modern things happening, 107 00:05:34,329 --> 00:05:37,269 Speaker 1: women are becoming more educated and earn more income and 108 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: have greater career opportunities like I just said, and they 109 00:05:40,649 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: have more freedom and power and things that they're, you know, 110 00:05:43,209 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: in the modern world, there are a lot of things 111 00:05:44,649 --> 00:05:46,769 Speaker 1: going on and a lot of things to do. And 112 00:05:46,779 --> 00:05:49,140 Speaker 1: so and work takes a lot of time also and 113 00:05:49,149 --> 00:05:52,660 Speaker 1: then you need time to destress and to explore yourself 114 00:05:52,670 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: and do other things. And so, 115 00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:57,309 Speaker 1: you know, people are having less time for Children and 116 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: Children still need a lot of time. And in fact, 117 00:05:59,329 --> 00:06:01,899 Speaker 1: they might even require more time now because of this 118 00:06:01,910 --> 00:06:05,529 Speaker 1: competitive world to get them ready. I mean, when I 119 00:06:05,540 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: think about it, you know, what used to be, what 120 00:06:07,209 --> 00:06:10,549 Speaker 1: they call the dink lifestyle, double income. No kids now 121 00:06:10,559 --> 00:06:13,859 Speaker 1: is dink plus a dog and a cat. But does 122 00:06:13,869 --> 00:06:15,730 Speaker 1: it have to be that way where I've got two kids? 123 00:06:15,738 --> 00:06:18,130 Speaker 1: And yes, it required a lot of investment in the 124 00:06:18,140 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: early years. But now I feel that 125 00:06:20,829 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: I can very much have my life and still enjoy 126 00:06:23,609 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: having the kids and the family too. So perhaps would 127 00:06:26,730 --> 00:06:29,859 Speaker 1: you dare to take on a challenge like that where 128 00:06:29,869 --> 00:06:33,049 Speaker 1: it may be transitional where the early years seem tough? Yes, 129 00:06:33,059 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: they are. 130 00:06:34,470 --> 00:06:36,790 Speaker 1: But it's not forever. You will have your me time 131 00:06:36,799 --> 00:06:37,130 Speaker 1: back 132 00:06:38,109 --> 00:06:39,750 Speaker 1: just 20 years later. 133 00:06:42,988 --> 00:06:44,850 Speaker 2: Well, I think for me, I'm going through it right 134 00:06:44,859 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: now so I just cannot see a near future where 135 00:06:46,890 --> 00:06:49,529 Speaker 2: there is a possibility. And also for me, I have 136 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:52,140 Speaker 2: a very young brother who's 12 years younger than me. 137 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,928 Speaker 2: So I have seen my mother raised me when she 138 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:58,070 Speaker 2: was relatively young. And then when she was more middle aged, 139 00:06:58,079 --> 00:06:59,488 Speaker 2: she had my brother and she had to go through 140 00:06:59,500 --> 00:07:01,339 Speaker 2: that again and it was even harder on her 141 00:07:01,424 --> 00:07:04,714 Speaker 2: from a health perspective. And as an older mom, she 142 00:07:04,725 --> 00:07:07,605 Speaker 2: tends to also worry a lot more for my brother 143 00:07:07,815 --> 00:07:10,244 Speaker 2: compared to other parents of my brother's 144 00:07:10,255 --> 00:07:13,035 Speaker 1: age, which is why you shouldn't wait anymore. Just hurry 145 00:07:13,045 --> 00:07:13,744 Speaker 1: up and have the second, 146 00:07:16,065 --> 00:07:19,054 Speaker 2: you know, experience. I will not have one now and 147 00:07:19,065 --> 00:07:20,904 Speaker 2: I cannot imagine having one in the future. When I've 148 00:07:20,915 --> 00:07:22,494 Speaker 2: already gotten out of this pit. What 149 00:07:22,505 --> 00:07:24,725 Speaker 1: would change your mind? Could anything change your mind 150 00:07:25,609 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: with more money, more subsidies. And this might be 151 00:07:28,649 --> 00:07:33,029 Speaker 2: a bit controversial. But if I have a surrogate, maybe 152 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,049 Speaker 2: I think that could be a possibility. So I have 153 00:07:35,149 --> 00:07:38,589 Speaker 2: to go through pregnancy and maternity. 154 00:07:39,029 --> 00:07:40,518 Speaker 2: I can just have the baby in my arm, not 155 00:07:40,609 --> 00:07:41,029 Speaker 2: here in Singapore, 156 00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:44,429 Speaker 1: but let's talk about the money. Ok. So the one 157 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,929 Speaker 1: thing that this government has is money. Some people say 158 00:07:47,940 --> 00:07:51,170 Speaker 1: it throws money at a problem that money cannot solve. 159 00:07:51,359 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: I was looking at all the benefits. I come on. 160 00:07:55,010 --> 00:07:58,459 Speaker 1: That's quite a lot. Right. 8000 to the 11,000 for 161 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: Children on baby bonus and childcare subsidies, paternity leave has 162 00:08:02,450 --> 00:08:03,250 Speaker 1: been doubled. 163 00:08:03,559 --> 00:08:06,609 Speaker 1: So all that is coming at quite a big bill 164 00:08:06,769 --> 00:08:10,779 Speaker 1: but it's not sticking. So let's unpack this a little bit, right. 165 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,859 Speaker 1: The first thing people say when they don't want kids 166 00:08:13,869 --> 00:08:18,119 Speaker 1: is way too expensive. Is it? That's because I got 167 00:08:18,130 --> 00:08:21,940 Speaker 1: to have the tuition, swimming lessons, piano lesson, art class 168 00:08:21,950 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: or you want to send your kids to a private preschool. 169 00:08:24,489 --> 00:08:26,089 Speaker 1: Is that fair? I mean, 170 00:08:26,679 --> 00:08:27,690 Speaker 1: what do you think? I think 171 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,709 Speaker 2: it is fair for sure, but it is also the 172 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,919 Speaker 2: easiest thing to blame it on. So it's much easier 173 00:08:33,929 --> 00:08:36,900 Speaker 2: to say that. Ok, I'm sorry, I think I don't 174 00:08:36,909 --> 00:08:38,858 Speaker 2: think blame is the right word, but it's also the 175 00:08:38,869 --> 00:08:42,159 Speaker 2: easiest thing for the government to look at addressing that. Ok. 176 00:08:42,169 --> 00:08:45,119 Speaker 2: Other factors, we cannot control right. What women think what 177 00:08:45,130 --> 00:08:47,780 Speaker 2: they want to pursue, we cannot control what we can 178 00:08:47,789 --> 00:08:50,869 Speaker 2: control is to give out a lot of bonuses, child support. 179 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 2: So I think the government is doing all they could 180 00:08:52,729 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: to be fair. But then there's also the part 181 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:57,919 Speaker 2: that frankly I just don't see how the government can 182 00:08:57,929 --> 00:09:02,270 Speaker 2: really change what women want out of their lives, 183 00:09:03,469 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: but I'm sure there are some who may want to 184 00:09:05,210 --> 00:09:08,580 Speaker 1: have more kids but just feel that their circumstances don't 185 00:09:08,590 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: allow them to so such subsidies and schemes will. But 186 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: I guess what we're saying is that there's still a 187 00:09:14,010 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: fairly small group of people in the larger scheme of things, 188 00:09:17,270 --> 00:09:20,260 Speaker 1: but it'll probably help people who are right on the cusp, 189 00:09:20,270 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: just hemming and hawing and now here's more money. OK. 190 00:09:23,770 --> 00:09:24,390 Speaker 1: Let's do it. 191 00:09:24,849 --> 00:09:27,039 Speaker 1: But for a lot of people that can't just completely 192 00:09:27,049 --> 00:09:30,450 Speaker 1: reverse them 100 and 80 degrees because they're psychologically already 193 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:34,270 Speaker 1: pointed the other direction. Yeah. Yeah. So when I talk 194 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,349 Speaker 1: to some of my younger friends and they say it's 195 00:09:39,359 --> 00:09:43,069 Speaker 1: not about the diapers and the milk really. It's a 196 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,669 Speaker 1: long haul cost. And so if you tell them, don't 197 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,489 Speaker 1: give tuition, don't do swimming, don't do piano, whatever. And 198 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:53,689 Speaker 1: they say, but this is Singapore. You, you 199 00:09:53,881 --> 00:09:57,182 Speaker 1: and be in this environment and not actually you can, 200 00:09:57,273 --> 00:09:59,773 Speaker 1: you can, you totally can, right? Because if you think 201 00:09:59,783 --> 00:10:04,232 Speaker 1: about our ancestors for 99% of human evolutionary history, we 202 00:10:04,242 --> 00:10:07,182 Speaker 1: lived on the brink of starvation. They didn't think like, oh, 203 00:10:07,403 --> 00:10:09,213 Speaker 1: you know, should I have a child or not? It's 204 00:10:09,223 --> 00:10:12,643 Speaker 1: so difficult. We have it much, much easier than them, right? 205 00:10:12,653 --> 00:10:14,862 Speaker 1: But we, but we are evolved to, 206 00:10:15,005 --> 00:10:17,695 Speaker 1: to be very competitive and especially in Asia, I think 207 00:10:17,705 --> 00:10:19,744 Speaker 1: but we want them to be the best and to 208 00:10:19,755 --> 00:10:23,455 Speaker 1: get there, it will be very costly and very labor 209 00:10:23,466 --> 00:10:25,906 Speaker 1: intensive and how are we going to change that mindset? 210 00:10:26,416 --> 00:10:28,486 Speaker 1: And then, I mean, you're saying it's possible, but those 211 00:10:28,495 --> 00:10:30,556 Speaker 1: who say it's possible are often those who can afford 212 00:10:30,565 --> 00:10:33,995 Speaker 1: to send their kids overseas to take other options, but 213 00:10:34,005 --> 00:10:37,665 Speaker 1: that's not the larger population. Yeah, this is going to 214 00:10:37,676 --> 00:10:40,434 Speaker 1: take a lot of research into these kind of non 215 00:10:40,445 --> 00:10:43,056 Speaker 1: tangible type of factors that how to, how to get 216 00:10:43,065 --> 00:10:43,606 Speaker 1: to those 217 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:47,329 Speaker 1: and really ultimately to reduce the stress reaction that our 218 00:10:47,340 --> 00:10:50,359 Speaker 1: brains naturally have when we feel like we can't get 219 00:10:50,369 --> 00:10:54,989 Speaker 1: these things done because this kind of reaction kept us 220 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,968 Speaker 1: alive for millions of years. But nowadays, it's not like 221 00:10:57,979 --> 00:11:00,669 Speaker 1: that anymore. You can live and not be the top, 222 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, and not be like way above the average, 223 00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:06,049 Speaker 1: you could be below average and you still survive here. 224 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,179 Speaker 1: It's ok. Do you ever feel that Holly, do you 225 00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:13,299 Speaker 1: feel like your kid has to have the best of 226 00:11:13,309 --> 00:11:13,799 Speaker 1: everything 227 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,049 Speaker 2: I think for me because I'm quite a quite a 228 00:11:17,059 --> 00:11:21,210 Speaker 2: pessimistic war reward. So when I was pregnant, I was 229 00:11:21,219 --> 00:11:23,380 Speaker 2: thinking ok, I want my son to be like the 230 00:11:23,390 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 2: top of his game best in class, you know, go 231 00:11:26,729 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 2: to Ivy League and all of that. But once he 232 00:11:28,570 --> 00:11:31,210 Speaker 2: came along, I see him in my arms and I 233 00:11:31,219 --> 00:11:33,820 Speaker 2: just feel like I just need him to be happy, 234 00:11:33,924 --> 00:11:38,034 Speaker 2: be healthy and safe. And I just, I just cannot 235 00:11:38,044 --> 00:11:39,824 Speaker 2: imagine if anything were to happen to him. So now 236 00:11:39,835 --> 00:11:42,574 Speaker 2: three years on, I don't send him to anything. I 237 00:11:42,585 --> 00:11:45,664 Speaker 2: don't force anything on him. I'm completely ok. Actually, at 238 00:11:45,674 --> 00:11:47,955 Speaker 2: this point that if he doesn't go to a good school, 239 00:11:47,965 --> 00:11:51,534 Speaker 2: he's just medium average on everything for now. I really 240 00:11:51,544 --> 00:11:53,085 Speaker 2: think because he's my one and done 241 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:55,330 Speaker 2: all I want for him is to be happy and healthy. 242 00:11:55,469 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: Ok? Wait till he goes to primary school. Like not 243 00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:05,718 Speaker 1: doing so well in math and then you start like panicking, right? 244 00:12:06,099 --> 00:12:08,890 Speaker 1: You are in that primary two chat group and you go, 245 00:12:08,979 --> 00:12:11,070 Speaker 1: have you seen the Chinese homework is due tomorrow and 246 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:12,228 Speaker 1: you'll be like what Chinese 247 00:12:12,239 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 2: homework? OK. Let me enjoy this few 248 00:12:14,330 --> 00:12:15,039 Speaker 1: years more. 249 00:12:16,469 --> 00:12:18,570 Speaker 1: OK. Let's talk a little bit about the stress. You 250 00:12:18,580 --> 00:12:21,738 Speaker 1: mentioned that earlier, right? Norman, this is something that's part 251 00:12:21,750 --> 00:12:25,700 Speaker 1: and parcel of advanced economies. Surveys show that a lot 252 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:30,020 Speaker 1: of us are very tired, emotionally, psychologically, physically, et cetera 253 00:12:30,030 --> 00:12:31,809 Speaker 1: after work. So 254 00:12:32,299 --> 00:12:35,299 Speaker 1: how important is this? This is the second thing that 255 00:12:35,309 --> 00:12:37,739 Speaker 1: comes up whenever we talk about why we don't want 256 00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:42,270 Speaker 1: to have kids, it's just too stressful. I think it's 257 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,309 Speaker 1: an extremely important factor. As I mentioned earlier when all organisms, 258 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,989 Speaker 1: when most of the time when people were 259 00:12:50,460 --> 00:12:54,179 Speaker 1: organisms feel stressed, they turn away from mating and reproduction 260 00:12:54,190 --> 00:12:57,289 Speaker 1: and then they invest more in themselves. They wait it out, 261 00:12:57,369 --> 00:13:02,049 Speaker 1: especially for humans, like us living in very safe conditions, 262 00:13:02,219 --> 00:13:04,159 Speaker 1: we tend to wait it out because we think we 263 00:13:04,169 --> 00:13:06,539 Speaker 1: have a long time, right? We get another degree. We 264 00:13:06,549 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: want to go for that promotion. We're going to study 265 00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: hard and work hard and save up and do all 266 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:12,239 Speaker 1: these kind of things, right? 267 00:13:12,570 --> 00:13:15,650 Speaker 1: And if you grow up in very poor chaotic conditions, 268 00:13:15,659 --> 00:13:17,820 Speaker 1: it's just the opposite. Those people feel stressed and they 269 00:13:17,830 --> 00:13:21,010 Speaker 1: reproduce faster. They spend like there's no tomorrow because there 270 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:25,510 Speaker 1: might not be a tomorrow. That's interesting. So, yeah, so 271 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: I think you have to find a way in this 272 00:13:27,770 --> 00:13:30,380 Speaker 1: setting to reduce the stress. So, so the irony is 273 00:13:30,390 --> 00:13:33,770 Speaker 1: because our country is quite safe, you are secure, you 274 00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:36,820 Speaker 1: have a good job. You don't worry. But holly, you 275 00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:40,390 Speaker 1: were talking about this, right? Your work is all consuming. 276 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,780 Speaker 1: Um You like it. You, you were telling us before 277 00:13:43,789 --> 00:13:47,700 Speaker 1: that you enjoy the work. So for you to come 278 00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: home and then worry about maybe the kid is not 279 00:13:50,450 --> 00:13:53,580 Speaker 1: behaving or not doing something. Is that at the back 280 00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:56,659 Speaker 1: of your mind when you're thinking about, you know, having 281 00:13:56,669 --> 00:13:57,299 Speaker 1: more kids? 282 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,940 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think I just tend to 283 00:13:59,950 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: worry about everything that I'm doing well. I'm at work, 284 00:14:02,890 --> 00:14:05,090 Speaker 2: I'm worried about my kid and then when I'm off work, 285 00:14:05,099 --> 00:14:07,359 Speaker 2: I'm worried about work and then, you know, if I'm 286 00:14:07,369 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: on social media too much, then I worry about not 287 00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:10,859 Speaker 2: spending time with my son. But when I'm with my son, 288 00:14:10,869 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about social media. So definitely there's a lot 289 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:14,780 Speaker 2: of um 290 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:18,539 Speaker 2: stress I would say happening in my head. But I 291 00:14:18,549 --> 00:14:21,159 Speaker 2: think a lot of them are not actual stress is 292 00:14:21,169 --> 00:14:25,010 Speaker 2: self induced, kind of all over the place 293 00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: your husband's around. Does he also step in to help? 294 00:14:27,849 --> 00:14:30,090 Speaker 1: You know, so doesn't that help alleviate some of that stress? 295 00:14:30,479 --> 00:14:31,039 Speaker 1: Um 296 00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:34,609 Speaker 2: It definitely does. I feel like the stress of the 297 00:14:34,619 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: work doesn't get reduced just because two people are doing 298 00:14:36,890 --> 00:14:39,820 Speaker 2: it because two people are doing it somehow in your head, 299 00:14:39,830 --> 00:14:41,090 Speaker 2: there's actually more things to be done. 300 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,169 Speaker 2: So then they can always be more help, they can 301 00:14:43,179 --> 00:14:46,539 Speaker 2: come along. So for me, my husband is a super 302 00:14:46,549 --> 00:14:49,729 Speaker 2: involved father at night, we were both, we made a 303 00:14:49,739 --> 00:14:52,119 Speaker 2: point to really just spend time with our son. But 304 00:14:52,130 --> 00:14:53,830 Speaker 2: even then, I don't know, I just feel there's just 305 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:55,369 Speaker 2: so much to think about. But can you, 306 00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: can you switch off if your husband's taking the kid 307 00:14:57,890 --> 00:14:59,979 Speaker 1: out for a walk in the park? Can you just ok, 308 00:14:59,989 --> 00:15:01,409 Speaker 1: now I can go and have my me time and 309 00:15:01,419 --> 00:15:02,659 Speaker 1: just forget about them. 310 00:15:03,419 --> 00:15:06,219 Speaker 2: I can, but it tends to be very short. He 311 00:15:06,359 --> 00:15:08,450 Speaker 2: take him out for a walk. It's like really a 312 00:15:08,460 --> 00:15:09,409 Speaker 2: 10 minute walk, 313 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:13,330 Speaker 1: take a longer walk because I think that that's part 314 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:15,489 Speaker 1: of the whole sharing the load, right? You give each 315 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:18,030 Speaker 1: other time and space. So if I take the kids out, 316 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:20,039 Speaker 1: I bring them out and my wife has the afternoon off, 317 00:15:20,049 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: she should know that I'm capable enough to care for 318 00:15:22,010 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: the kids so that she can switch off. So, I mean, 319 00:15:25,929 --> 00:15:27,599 Speaker 1: I don't know. So is that a challenge to, do 320 00:15:27,609 --> 00:15:30,789 Speaker 1: you feel that maybe sometimes men don't really step up, 321 00:15:30,849 --> 00:15:33,989 Speaker 1: you know, to the challenge? Would that help in the 322 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,419 Speaker 1: scheme of things too? You know, because in, in Korea, 323 00:15:37,489 --> 00:15:40,669 Speaker 1: for example, one of the key things about why women 324 00:15:40,679 --> 00:15:44,150 Speaker 1: don't want to have more kids is because they actually 325 00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:47,830 Speaker 1: have a very kind of like a paternalistic approach to 326 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: things where women 327 00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:53,679 Speaker 1: do the caregiving very heavily and men take care of, 328 00:15:53,690 --> 00:15:56,619 Speaker 1: you know, the work. And so they think to themselves, 329 00:15:56,630 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: if I'm going to carry the load, I'm not going 330 00:16:00,330 --> 00:16:03,869 Speaker 1: to have no more kids. Singapore is slightly different. I'm 331 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,630 Speaker 1: sure your husband is a good example. I see around me, 332 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: younger men, I would argue they're not like that at all. Many, 333 00:16:12,289 --> 00:16:15,539 Speaker 1: many younger generation I seen, I mean, no, the older generation, 334 00:16:15,549 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: I would say yes, but I think, 335 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,059 Speaker 1: I mean, I was quite hands on. But even in 336 00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:21,559 Speaker 1: my generation, there were maybe, you know, a mixture of us. 337 00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:23,020 Speaker 1: But now I look at the young ones, I think, 338 00:16:26,119 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: yeah, I think, I think Singapore is actually really, I 339 00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:31,940 Speaker 2: would say a prime example of gender equality where that 340 00:16:31,950 --> 00:16:33,729 Speaker 2: want to be just as involved with their kids. And 341 00:16:33,739 --> 00:16:36,929 Speaker 2: there is no judgment anywhere in terms of who is 342 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:38,020 Speaker 2: bringing home the bacon 343 00:16:38,130 --> 00:16:40,609 Speaker 2: or, you know, whether it's a single income, double income, 344 00:16:40,619 --> 00:16:42,469 Speaker 2: it could be men, it could be women and both 345 00:16:42,479 --> 00:16:45,109 Speaker 2: could be working. There is no, I feel any sort 346 00:16:45,119 --> 00:16:48,090 Speaker 2: of gender bias as much as you would see in 347 00:16:48,099 --> 00:16:48,919 Speaker 2: some of the other, 348 00:16:49,359 --> 00:16:52,750 Speaker 1: as much as you would see. But who calls? Ok, 349 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,210 Speaker 1: your kid is not in school yet. So usually when 350 00:16:55,219 --> 00:16:59,429 Speaker 1: my female colleagues, when the teacher calls a parent, it's 351 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,690 Speaker 1: the mom, they call it, you know, is it true? 352 00:17:02,830 --> 00:17:04,540 Speaker 1: I think that's generally true. Yeah, 353 00:17:04,989 --> 00:17:08,389 Speaker 1: the mother is usually more involved. I mean, if the 354 00:17:08,459 --> 00:17:10,979 Speaker 1: father is the one always showing up at the parent, 355 00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:13,250 Speaker 1: teacher gatherings and I'm sure he would be on speed down. 356 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:15,930 Speaker 1: Not the mom. Did the teachers call you or your wife? 357 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,510 Speaker 1: Because I don't give my number. 358 00:17:20,089 --> 00:17:22,569 Speaker 1: There you go for other reasons. I might show up. 359 00:17:23,739 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: So I think that still is at the back of 360 00:17:26,130 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: women's minds. It is now throughout again, evolutionary history, men 361 00:17:31,569 --> 00:17:34,829 Speaker 1: didn't do the childcare that much. But that doesn't mean 362 00:17:34,839 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: that men are completely off the hook. But it also 363 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:40,829 Speaker 1: means that the Children relied on other people in the village, 364 00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:44,589 Speaker 1: other extended family, older brothers and sisters, cousins and aunts 365 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:47,599 Speaker 1: and uncles and grandparents, right? They're all involved. Everybody. It's 366 00:17:47,609 --> 00:17:49,750 Speaker 1: like it takes a whole village to raise a child, right? 367 00:17:50,209 --> 00:17:52,510 Speaker 1: So, that's, the problem is partly so it's not just 368 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,589 Speaker 1: men aren't doing enough, which that would be nice to 369 00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:58,310 Speaker 1: have more of that. But I think, you know, it's 370 00:17:58,319 --> 00:18:00,839 Speaker 1: the availability of everyone in the family. I mean, we 371 00:18:00,849 --> 00:18:02,829 Speaker 1: talk about a whole village. Sure, we don't have that 372 00:18:03,030 --> 00:18:05,589 Speaker 1: kampong spirit anymore. We don't live life like that. But 373 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: I guess I'm thinking our village should be where the 374 00:18:08,170 --> 00:18:11,930 Speaker 1: workplace is. One that cares for family allows you to 375 00:18:11,939 --> 00:18:14,589 Speaker 1: have some flexi time to deal with needs when you can. 376 00:18:14,890 --> 00:18:16,170 Speaker 1: That encourages 377 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:19,020 Speaker 1: fathers to be more involved. But same thing with the 378 00:18:19,030 --> 00:18:21,869 Speaker 1: schools who also engage both parents, not just the mother 379 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,629 Speaker 1: or just the father. So that becomes your community, right? 380 00:18:26,229 --> 00:18:28,849 Speaker 1: And I guess we're saying that we're not quite there yet, right? 381 00:18:28,939 --> 00:18:32,890 Speaker 1: That's right. That could be improved. I'm guessing. Yeah, because 382 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:36,659 Speaker 1: the paternity leave take up rates are still not ideal. 383 00:18:36,670 --> 00:18:38,650 Speaker 1: I know. It's crazy. I have one day 384 00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:42,380 Speaker 1: you did. I had one day of paternity leave. I mean, 385 00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:45,060 Speaker 1: this was eons ago, you know. But yeah, people have 386 00:18:45,069 --> 00:18:48,050 Speaker 1: four weeks now. I think most men take two weeks 387 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:50,650 Speaker 1: for sure after the wife gives birth. But the hardest 388 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:54,770 Speaker 1: parts are not the immediate aftermath of the birth. It's 389 00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:56,410 Speaker 1: really the few months down the road 390 00:18:56,604 --> 00:19:00,405 Speaker 1: when you're struggling. So men are not taking in that, 391 00:19:00,415 --> 00:19:03,714 Speaker 1: in that stretch because they're thinking my boss is going 392 00:19:03,724 --> 00:19:06,435 Speaker 1: to think what are you doing? You're taking all this 393 00:19:06,444 --> 00:19:08,925 Speaker 1: time off. You know, I don't think that's the case. 394 00:19:08,935 --> 00:19:11,813 Speaker 1: I would say that because sometimes the men feel that 395 00:19:11,974 --> 00:19:13,535 Speaker 1: I can't do anything. I'm home. But 396 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:15,979 Speaker 1: the breastfeeding issue is something that, 397 00:19:16,910 --> 00:19:17,670 Speaker 1: what can I do as a guy 398 00:19:19,060 --> 00:19:21,770 Speaker 2: like that? I think the first month or two really? 399 00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:24,540 Speaker 2: The deck can't do anything because the babies with the 400 00:19:24,550 --> 00:19:26,819 Speaker 2: mother all the time. But I do think what helps 401 00:19:26,829 --> 00:19:30,060 Speaker 2: is maybe more flexibility for men to work from home 402 00:19:30,069 --> 00:19:34,310 Speaker 2: and more encouragement for them to take that flexibility and 403 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:36,069 Speaker 2: not be, feel compelled to have to come to the 404 00:19:36,079 --> 00:19:36,689 Speaker 2: office and 405 00:19:36,989 --> 00:19:40,149 Speaker 2: you know, show facetime, I think spreading that out throughout 406 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: the 1st 1 to 3 years even. That's, that's actually 407 00:19:43,369 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: what's more 408 00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 1: helpful. This is the other thing that I think the 409 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:49,750 Speaker 1: government is trying quite hard to do. They're gonna really 410 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,319 Speaker 1: press in on the workplace, you know, to get employers 411 00:19:53,329 --> 00:19:57,180 Speaker 1: to give a little bit more leeway to parents so 412 00:19:57,189 --> 00:19:59,149 Speaker 1: that they can take time off when they need to. 413 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: I think parents get 414 00:20:00,194 --> 00:20:03,724 Speaker 1: six days of childcare leave, right? But if you have 415 00:20:03,734 --> 00:20:06,614 Speaker 1: two Children, you know how often they fall sick, right? 416 00:20:06,824 --> 00:20:10,114 Speaker 1: Every week. I mean, every week. Yeah, at the end 417 00:20:10,125 --> 00:20:11,895 Speaker 1: of the day, I think I would encourage if everyone 418 00:20:11,905 --> 00:20:15,333 Speaker 1: was just approach this differently where employers didn't have to 419 00:20:15,344 --> 00:20:17,364 Speaker 1: just legislate and say you have six days and only 420 00:20:17,375 --> 00:20:19,375 Speaker 1: six days. But as and when you're a good worker, Holly, 421 00:20:19,385 --> 00:20:21,055 Speaker 1: I know, if you want time off, I'll give it 422 00:20:21,064 --> 00:20:22,454 Speaker 1: to you because I know you will make up for 423 00:20:22,464 --> 00:20:23,334 Speaker 1: it some other time 424 00:20:23,540 --> 00:20:26,459 Speaker 1: to trust your employees to trust that they will do 425 00:20:26,469 --> 00:20:28,739 Speaker 1: what is needed and necessary. And I think when you 426 00:20:28,750 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: have that whole environment, then 427 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,060 Speaker 1: you feel more relaxed. You know, you can go when 428 00:20:33,069 --> 00:20:34,859 Speaker 1: your child gets sick all of a sudden that you 429 00:20:34,869 --> 00:20:37,500 Speaker 1: can care for them. And I think then yes, then, 430 00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:40,180 Speaker 1: you know, overall everyone will be a bit more open 431 00:20:40,189 --> 00:20:43,819 Speaker 1: to the idea of procreating. Are you positive that we 432 00:20:43,829 --> 00:20:47,829 Speaker 1: might turn the tide? I think that in theory, it 433 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:51,599 Speaker 1: is possible to do something. But um but it's going 434 00:20:51,609 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 1: to take a lot more research and experimentation and things. But, 435 00:20:55,489 --> 00:20:57,010 Speaker 1: but ultimately, it is a 436 00:20:57,469 --> 00:21:02,430 Speaker 1: heavy downward trend because the modernization and as more technology 437 00:21:02,439 --> 00:21:06,260 Speaker 1: is introduced, the more unnatural the life that we live, 438 00:21:06,270 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: the more stress, the more responsibilities, the more tasks we 439 00:21:08,969 --> 00:21:11,449 Speaker 1: have to do that just is going to take us 440 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,170 Speaker 1: more and more away from reproduction. It's inevitable. It doesn't 441 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,089 Speaker 1: sound like we have any kind of a solution here. 442 00:21:17,099 --> 00:21:19,329 Speaker 1: But I think what we're trying to do now is just, 443 00:21:19,979 --> 00:21:22,859 Speaker 1: yeah, maybe just turn things around so that perhaps people 444 00:21:22,869 --> 00:21:25,540 Speaker 1: will start approaching it differently and look at life differently. 445 00:21:25,609 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: I do 446 00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:29,660 Speaker 2: think like the nature of Singapore society is, is competitive 447 00:21:29,670 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: and you know, there's always something to aspire towards which 448 00:21:33,130 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: kind of delays this whole process of settling down, getting married. 449 00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:40,310 Speaker 2: And even you reach a point where like you're already 450 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:43,540 Speaker 2: in your thirties or late thirties, you would think that, OK, 451 00:21:43,819 --> 00:21:45,709 Speaker 2: I just don't have the bandwidth and, or I have 452 00:21:45,719 --> 00:21:49,109 Speaker 2: the mental physical health to have a child or two. 453 00:21:49,479 --> 00:21:51,729 Speaker 2: So I think it's maybe a little bit more fundamental 454 00:21:51,739 --> 00:21:55,409 Speaker 2: than that to look at. Overall as a society, we 455 00:21:55,420 --> 00:21:58,229 Speaker 2: are just constantly in the pursuit of something better and 456 00:21:58,239 --> 00:22:00,438 Speaker 2: making people feel like that, you know, that a better 457 00:22:00,449 --> 00:22:02,890 Speaker 2: life is within reach. And so we are constantly delaying 458 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,530 Speaker 2: this process of birth giving 459 00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: to a point of no return. 460 00:22:08,239 --> 00:22:11,780 Speaker 1: So I think there is a natural trade off between 461 00:22:11,790 --> 00:22:16,468 Speaker 1: economic progress and the reproduction in a modern society. So 462 00:22:16,479 --> 00:22:20,579 Speaker 1: you cannot have both very easily if at all. 463 00:22:21,385 --> 00:22:23,444 Speaker 1: And that's the irony, right? That the more we earn 464 00:22:23,454 --> 00:22:26,545 Speaker 1: the smarter we get, the more we enjoy life, the Children, 465 00:22:26,555 --> 00:22:30,073 Speaker 1: we have the less sex we actually have too. Yeah, 466 00:22:30,214 --> 00:22:33,514 Speaker 1: I think the more educated smarter people have, have even 467 00:22:33,525 --> 00:22:35,734 Speaker 1: less sex. Yeah. What's wrong with them? They're not so 468 00:22:35,744 --> 00:22:36,645 Speaker 1: smart after all. 469 00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:40,609 Speaker 2: Spiritual connection. 470 00:22:40,619 --> 00:22:43,150 Speaker 1: OK. We got to wrap things up. Yeah. Any last thoughts? 471 00:22:43,260 --> 00:22:43,290 Speaker 1: I 472 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:47,379 Speaker 2: don't think I'm representative of, you know, other women. But 473 00:22:47,390 --> 00:22:49,310 Speaker 2: for me, I think I've made that made up my 474 00:22:49,319 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 2: mind at least like three years ago when I had 475 00:22:50,969 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 2: my child, the 476 00:22:52,290 --> 00:22:56,129 Speaker 1: government is determined, you know, to address this challenge, they're 477 00:22:56,140 --> 00:22:58,849 Speaker 1: not going to just leave it be if you were 478 00:22:58,859 --> 00:23:03,069 Speaker 1: talking to them having had this experience, what would you 479 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:06,689 Speaker 1: suggest be top of their list that they need to 480 00:23:06,699 --> 00:23:07,410 Speaker 1: think about? 481 00:23:08,459 --> 00:23:12,030 Speaker 2: Um So I think of what I can think of 482 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:13,979 Speaker 2: just off of the top of my head would be 483 00:23:13,989 --> 00:23:16,420 Speaker 2: to make it easier for young couples to have a house. 484 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:20,670 Speaker 2: Number one, I mean, having a house is oftentimes just 485 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: the beginning of you settling down thinking even of having 486 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:26,030 Speaker 2: a family. But if young people, I remember when I 487 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,780 Speaker 2: was starting out in my career, my boyfriend and I 488 00:23:28,790 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: at that time, 489 00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:31,069 Speaker 2: we were thinking, OK, we want to bid for this 490 00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:32,979 Speaker 2: BT O. We have to wait five years. We were 491 00:23:32,989 --> 00:23:34,869 Speaker 2: very lucky to get the bid the first time we tried, 492 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,010 Speaker 2: but we have to wait five years and we were 493 00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 2: already in our mid twenties. So by the time we 494 00:23:38,729 --> 00:23:41,260 Speaker 2: get that BT O, we are already 30. So maybe 495 00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:44,780 Speaker 2: making that process somehow simpler for younger people. So they 496 00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: settle down earlier and they have more years to think 497 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: about what to do. 498 00:23:48,109 --> 00:23:53,150 Speaker 1: I mean, not necessarily building more flats because that's also tough, right? 499 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,729 Speaker 1: Maybe some other interim solution where you can actually maybe 500 00:23:57,739 --> 00:24:00,930 Speaker 1: rent or own or something. When you don't have a home, 501 00:24:00,939 --> 00:24:02,989 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you can start a no. What 502 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,819 Speaker 1: do you think? What, what would be on your list? 503 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:07,449 Speaker 1: What would be on my list? To look at next to, 504 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,079 Speaker 1: to turn things around. Ok. Well, we're ready to establish 505 00:24:12,229 --> 00:24:14,969 Speaker 1: as Lee Kuan Yew said that, you know, it's not 506 00:24:14,979 --> 00:24:15,458 Speaker 1: the money 507 00:24:15,890 --> 00:24:19,469 Speaker 1: necessarily, right. So now we're looking at workplace, making workplace 508 00:24:19,479 --> 00:24:22,229 Speaker 1: more family friendly and things like that. I think that's 509 00:24:22,239 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: a good step. We have to look into more the 510 00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:28,369 Speaker 1: psychological factors of what I'm looking at. In my research 511 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:32,219 Speaker 1: is the effect of exposure to high population density cues. 512 00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:37,030 Speaker 1: Things like this economic uncertainty, things that come with globalization 513 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,290 Speaker 1: and high competition. I've found that they influence our attitudes, 514 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,589 Speaker 1: make them more negative for having family, make us want 515 00:24:44,599 --> 00:24:45,189 Speaker 1: to delay 516 00:24:45,439 --> 00:24:48,300 Speaker 1: these things more and more. So I think we need to, 517 00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:50,829 Speaker 1: you know, do more research on these kind of factors, 518 00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:53,810 Speaker 1: our exposure to different things in the modern world and 519 00:24:53,819 --> 00:24:57,949 Speaker 1: how they impact our decision making for this particular question. Yeah, 520 00:24:59,109 --> 00:25:01,429 Speaker 1: that's going to be a big study and that's like 521 00:25:01,439 --> 00:25:02,660 Speaker 1: so many things in 522 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,260 Speaker 1: our lives, you know. Absolutely. Yeah. My view is that 523 00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:07,550 Speaker 1: I think overall if we just made life easier, make 524 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 1: school easier, make it free. In fact, make university free too, 525 00:25:10,489 --> 00:25:15,659 Speaker 1: for all Singaporeans make school more enjoyable b to take 526 00:25:15,670 --> 00:25:17,619 Speaker 1: away all that competition that we have. 527 00:25:18,270 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 1: And I think when we can just enjoy the process 528 00:25:21,729 --> 00:25:23,859 Speaker 1: of living and learning, then people will be a lot 529 00:25:23,869 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: more relaxed and enjoy life more definitely over. Yeah. My 530 00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:30,438 Speaker 1: impression is when I talk to young people is that 531 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:34,150 Speaker 1: they have this perception that having kids is a hard slog. 532 00:25:34,540 --> 00:25:37,189 Speaker 1: You know, they only focus on the negative parts about 533 00:25:37,199 --> 00:25:39,770 Speaker 1: having kids. You know, that's so many nice things about 534 00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:41,310 Speaker 1: having no stop talking to them. 535 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,150 Speaker 2: That's what my one contribution. 536 00:25:45,459 --> 00:25:49,229 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is indeed an intractable problem for us to solve. 537 00:25:49,239 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you for joining us for this discussion today. 538 00:25:52,270 --> 00:25:54,329 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. OK. Thanks to the CN A 539 00:25:54,339 --> 00:25:59,069 Speaker 1: podcast team, Sa Wen Tiffany, Ang Janni Johari and Joan Chan. 540 00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:00,739 Speaker 1: Our sound designer is Ken Del.