1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,288 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:04,530 --> 00:00:08,488 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Money talks. We have a fresh slate 3 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: of personal finance topics that will help you save and 4 00:00:12,609 --> 00:00:16,780 Speaker 1: invest your money properly. I'm your host Andrea Heng. And 5 00:00:16,790 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: before we introduce our guest, I want to talk about 6 00:00:19,690 --> 00:00:23,940 Speaker 1: some money related news that may affect you. So I 7 00:00:23,950 --> 00:00:27,250 Speaker 1: wrote in my editor Tiffany Ang to come chat with me. 8 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:30,799 Speaker 1: It's a new segment. We call I on the money. 9 00:00:30,915 --> 00:00:35,604 Speaker 1: Hello, everybody. So let's get straight to the headlines are 10 00:00:35,615 --> 00:00:38,924 Speaker 1: obviously being the first week of January. Happy New Year. 11 00:00:38,935 --> 00:00:42,055 Speaker 1: Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everyone. Well, it's not 12 00:00:42,064 --> 00:00:45,025 Speaker 1: just a new year. Actually, we've got a new GST 13 00:00:45,034 --> 00:00:47,525 Speaker 1: we have. That's right. So in the New Year comes 14 00:00:47,534 --> 00:00:51,775 Speaker 1: a new year present. 9% GST. That's correct. So, 9% 15 00:00:51,784 --> 00:00:54,064 Speaker 1: GST if you don't already know that's our goods and 16 00:00:54,075 --> 00:00:57,455 Speaker 1: services tax, it increased from 8% to 9%. 17 00:00:57,970 --> 00:01:01,450 Speaker 1: It's been in every single conversation that I've had since 18 00:01:01,459 --> 00:01:04,550 Speaker 1: the start of this year and it's only been a week. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, 19 00:01:04,559 --> 00:01:07,619 Speaker 1: I'm curious. Did you make any big purchases before the 20 00:01:07,629 --> 00:01:11,809 Speaker 1: clock struck? 12, you know, I actually did, I bought 21 00:01:11,819 --> 00:01:16,139 Speaker 1: a TV. Not bad. So we were like 1%. The 22 00:01:16,150 --> 00:01:19,410 Speaker 1: GST actually was the impetus for us to buy a TV. 23 00:01:19,419 --> 00:01:20,870 Speaker 1: So here's the story. We don't have, 24 00:01:20,955 --> 00:01:22,745 Speaker 1: we have a TV. We've lived in this house for 25 00:01:22,754 --> 00:01:25,134 Speaker 1: a year, not had a TV. So we decided, oh, 26 00:01:25,144 --> 00:01:26,785 Speaker 1: you know what if we want to buy a TV? 27 00:01:26,794 --> 00:01:29,014 Speaker 1: And we've been mulling it for some time, we better 28 00:01:29,025 --> 00:01:32,404 Speaker 1: do it before the extra 1%. GST kicks in. So 29 00:01:32,595 --> 00:01:34,785 Speaker 1: that's what I did. Did you buy anything big ticket 30 00:01:34,794 --> 00:01:37,304 Speaker 1: before the GST kicked in? No, I didn't actually because 31 00:01:37,315 --> 00:01:39,815 Speaker 1: I have everything that I need at the moment. So 32 00:01:39,824 --> 00:01:43,995 Speaker 1: that's GST big, big headline. We also got some 33 00:01:44,430 --> 00:01:49,059 Speaker 1: nicer news. It is to help cushion the increase in 34 00:01:49,069 --> 00:01:53,330 Speaker 1: GST and the rising cost of living everything is going up. 35 00:01:53,339 --> 00:01:56,790 Speaker 1: So did our CDC vouchers 500 up from 300. I 36 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,910 Speaker 1: think that's really generous and I can't wait to spend it. 37 00:02:00,919 --> 00:02:02,830 Speaker 1: But you know what? I had this conversation with my 38 00:02:02,839 --> 00:02:05,980 Speaker 1: co-host on the morning show at CN A 938, Joel Chua. 39 00:02:06,519 --> 00:02:08,570 Speaker 1: And you know what? We're going to donate ours. Oh, 40 00:02:08,580 --> 00:02:11,910 Speaker 1: that's nice. Yeah, because here's the thing. I forgot to 41 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,779 Speaker 1: spend the rest of mine. That's what I was gonna 42 00:02:13,788 --> 00:02:17,020 Speaker 1: ask you what happened, what happened to last year's Trench 43 00:02:17,029 --> 00:02:20,428 Speaker 1: for you. So I spent, strangely, people find it easier 44 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,820 Speaker 1: to spend the supermarket ones and the Hawker ones. And 45 00:02:23,830 --> 00:02:24,529 Speaker 1: that's what you did. 46 00:02:24,669 --> 00:02:26,948 Speaker 1: I, I like the supermarket ones. It was hard for 47 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,889 Speaker 1: me to finish spending the Hawker Center one. Right. So, strangely, 48 00:02:30,899 --> 00:02:33,929 Speaker 1: the opposite happened with me. I was, I was able 49 00:02:33,940 --> 00:02:37,199 Speaker 1: to finish the Hawker ones. First. I spent maybe about 50 00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: half of the supermarket ones and then I left the 51 00:02:39,970 --> 00:02:42,570 Speaker 1: remaining 75 or whatever else that was left behind. 52 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,539 Speaker 1: And I didn't realize that I forgot, completely, forgot there 53 00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:50,229 Speaker 1: was an expiry date until I saw on Instagram three 54 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,148 Speaker 1: of my friends they said they spent New Year's Eve 55 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,559 Speaker 1: at the supermarket. Well, the good news this year is 56 00:02:55,570 --> 00:02:59,750 Speaker 1: that you can spend at more participating merchants. Yes, I 57 00:02:59,758 --> 00:03:03,279 Speaker 1: think the list is something like 23,000 merchants now. So 58 00:03:03,288 --> 00:03:06,500 Speaker 1: you can go to, you know, pretty much your Heartland shops, 59 00:03:06,508 --> 00:03:09,339 Speaker 1: have a check, see if they have that CDC voucher, 60 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:12,209 Speaker 1: you know, poster, there was ac N A article that 61 00:03:12,220 --> 00:03:14,550 Speaker 1: said a lot of our uncles and aunties, they were, 62 00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:18,389 Speaker 1: you know, buying new phones, new phone cases just before 63 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: 31st of December. Yeah. So I think a lot of 64 00:03:21,729 --> 00:03:23,788 Speaker 1: aunties will go get their perms, you know, their hair 65 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,250 Speaker 1: perms right before Chinese New Year. So, you know, you 66 00:03:26,258 --> 00:03:28,250 Speaker 1: don't actually only have to spend it on food. You 67 00:03:28,258 --> 00:03:30,850 Speaker 1: can support any of these Heartland shops, any of these 68 00:03:30,860 --> 00:03:34,008 Speaker 1: participating merchants. Well, it's not just about Singapore. We want 69 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:38,020 Speaker 1: to talk about some international movements. That's right. So you know, ok, 70 00:03:38,126 --> 00:03:42,285 Speaker 1: which company beat Tesla as the top maker of electric vehicles. 71 00:03:42,296 --> 00:03:47,085 Speaker 1: It is Byd, the Chinese brand, I kind of saw 72 00:03:47,095 --> 00:03:50,955 Speaker 1: this coming because yeah, because Byd China has been really 73 00:03:50,966 --> 00:03:56,626 Speaker 1: ramping up their electric vehicle industry. A lot of national 74 00:03:56,636 --> 00:04:01,065 Speaker 1: efforts poured into this industry. At the same time, Tesla 75 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:04,065 Speaker 1: has its own problems, just some stats, right? So Byd 76 00:04:04,076 --> 00:04:06,466 Speaker 1: took over the crown with almost 40,000 77 00:04:06,572 --> 00:04:10,261 Speaker 1: more cars in the fourth quarter of last year. In total, 78 00:04:10,272 --> 00:04:13,352 Speaker 1: it sold more than 3 million passenger vehicles last year. 79 00:04:13,501 --> 00:04:16,891 Speaker 1: I mean, this is full and hybrid V combined. So 80 00:04:16,902 --> 00:04:20,261 Speaker 1: that's interesting whether it's time as an investor to take 81 00:04:20,272 --> 00:04:22,891 Speaker 1: a look at Byd in your stock portfolio. If you're 82 00:04:22,902 --> 00:04:27,291 Speaker 1: looking into the space to diversify your portfolio, there could 83 00:04:27,302 --> 00:04:30,291 Speaker 1: be potential for it, but of course, always do your homework. 84 00:04:30,302 --> 00:04:33,402 Speaker 1: You can always ask your financial advisor what he or 85 00:04:33,411 --> 00:04:34,872 Speaker 1: she thinks and off you go. 86 00:04:37,299 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: Now before we get started, I want to check in 87 00:04:39,649 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: on you. I want to know how has money talks 88 00:04:42,769 --> 00:04:46,380 Speaker 1: helped you in 2023? We would really love to know. 89 00:04:46,390 --> 00:04:48,529 Speaker 1: So drop us a note in the comments. I cannot 90 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:52,269 Speaker 1: wait to see what you tell us. Well, personally, for me, 91 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,959 Speaker 1: it's been a very educational year as host of money 92 00:04:56,049 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: talks. I've learned so much from our guests from spending 93 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:04,230 Speaker 1: hacks on credit cards and groceries to investing in unusual 94 00:05:04,238 --> 00:05:08,309 Speaker 1: portfolios to learning tips from the pros on how to 95 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: optimize my CPF biggest lesson for me, how to get 96 00:05:12,049 --> 00:05:13,868 Speaker 1: out of an IP if I really wanted to get 97 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,238 Speaker 1: out of one, another, thing I learned was how to 98 00:05:17,250 --> 00:05:21,410 Speaker 1: take advantage of higher interest rates that we saw in 2023. 99 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,349 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. It made things expensive. But I found out 100 00:05:25,359 --> 00:05:28,380 Speaker 1: that there were in fact ways that this could be 101 00:05:28,390 --> 00:05:31,738 Speaker 1: useful to me. But the verdict is out from the 102 00:05:31,750 --> 00:05:34,679 Speaker 1: US Federal Reserve, that's the American Central Bank in case 103 00:05:34,690 --> 00:05:38,709 Speaker 1: you didn't know they're very likely to stop hiking interest 104 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,390 Speaker 1: rates and 2024 is the year we will finally start 105 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: seeing 106 00:05:43,845 --> 00:05:48,284 Speaker 1: rate cuts. Ok. So in the first place, what do 107 00:05:48,295 --> 00:05:51,424 Speaker 1: interest rates have to do with inflation? Does it mean 108 00:05:51,434 --> 00:05:54,994 Speaker 1: we'll see an easing of prices? Let's get some help 109 00:05:55,005 --> 00:05:57,695 Speaker 1: making sense of all of this. And that person is 110 00:05:57,704 --> 00:06:01,244 Speaker 1: Eddie Low chief investment officer at May Bank Singapore. He's 111 00:06:01,255 --> 00:06:04,885 Speaker 1: in the studio with me on the Money Talks podcast. Welcome, Eddie. Hi, 112 00:06:04,894 --> 00:06:05,105 Speaker 1: I'm 113 00:06:06,380 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: so first of all give us a 101 on interest rates. Ok. 114 00:06:10,209 --> 00:06:13,529 Speaker 1: What happens when they move? Why are so many things 115 00:06:13,540 --> 00:06:15,459 Speaker 1: affected by them? I think 116 00:06:15,470 --> 00:06:18,950 Speaker 2: if you look at interest rates, it affects us at 117 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:25,010 Speaker 2: different levels on the individual personal basis, right? Obviously, depositors 118 00:06:25,019 --> 00:06:28,238 Speaker 2: are happy when interest rates are higher because you get 119 00:06:28,250 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: actually more for your deposits, your time deposits, correct? 120 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,670 Speaker 2: Not so happy for those who are actually having mortgage loans, right? 121 00:06:36,678 --> 00:06:39,868 Speaker 2: Because you need to pay more interest. Then on the 122 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,899 Speaker 2: market side, obviously, it also has implications not necessarily that 123 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:50,738 Speaker 2: good for bonds which tend to underperform in the era 124 00:06:50,750 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: of rising interest rates, right? As for equities, it depends 125 00:06:54,359 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: really certain interest rate, sensitive sectors or markets will be 126 00:06:59,450 --> 00:07:00,209 Speaker 2: affected 127 00:07:00,630 --> 00:07:01,349 Speaker 2: others less 128 00:07:01,359 --> 00:07:04,380 Speaker 1: so, right. What are some examples of those sectors? I 129 00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: think 130 00:07:04,609 --> 00:07:07,649 Speaker 2: in Singapore, what is very common is actually Singapore S yes, 131 00:07:07,670 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: we have actually seen how Singapore rates have actually been 132 00:07:10,929 --> 00:07:14,899 Speaker 2: negatively impacted when interest rates were rising 133 00:07:15,890 --> 00:07:19,070 Speaker 1: and which sectors benefited from the high interest rates. 134 00:07:19,519 --> 00:07:24,339 Speaker 2: I think in the normal economy where there's still growth, actually, 135 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:28,220 Speaker 2: the banking sector tends to benefit from a rising interest 136 00:07:28,230 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 2: rate environment because you sort of like get the expansion 137 00:07:32,190 --> 00:07:35,649 Speaker 2: in interest margins while your loan growth, you know, is 138 00:07:35,660 --> 00:07:39,290 Speaker 2: still somewhat healthy because economy is still chugging along. Yeah. 139 00:07:39,529 --> 00:07:42,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting observation, right? The economy went on 140 00:07:42,529 --> 00:07:45,529 Speaker 1: even though things got more expensive. It was almost as 141 00:07:45,540 --> 00:07:47,179 Speaker 1: if the high interest rate 142 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:48,549 Speaker 1: didn't scare. 143 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,670 Speaker 2: It depends on where you are looking at. Obviously what 144 00:07:51,679 --> 00:07:55,589 Speaker 2: really triggered this spike in interest rates over the 12 145 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,950 Speaker 2: to 18 months was really the very high inflation that 146 00:07:58,959 --> 00:08:01,970 Speaker 2: we have witnessed, not just in Singapore but in other 147 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:05,609 Speaker 2: parts of the world US Europe, right? And the US 148 00:08:05,619 --> 00:08:10,589 Speaker 2: FED had to combat inflation by really hiking interest rates 149 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,980 Speaker 2: very rapidly and that actually negatively affected. 150 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: Not so much on the economy, but actually the markets, 151 00:08:19,179 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: both equities and bonds because the pace of rate hikes 152 00:08:23,450 --> 00:08:24,100 Speaker 2: was very 153 00:08:24,109 --> 00:08:26,350 Speaker 1: fast. Yeah, it was quite aggressive, very, very 154 00:08:26,359 --> 00:08:29,230 Speaker 2: aggressive. And that is something that investors do not 155 00:08:29,239 --> 00:08:33,510 Speaker 1: like. Right. Ok. So high consumption, not necessarily a good 156 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:34,988 Speaker 1: thing for investors. 157 00:08:35,260 --> 00:08:38,419 Speaker 2: Well, it depends on what drove the inflation in the 158 00:08:38,429 --> 00:08:41,109 Speaker 2: first place. Right. Right. And I think we came out 159 00:08:41,119 --> 00:08:45,030 Speaker 2: from a very unprecedented time where we had COVID, right. 160 00:08:45,109 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: So when the economy started to reopen, obviously there's this 161 00:08:49,650 --> 00:08:50,819 Speaker 2: pent up demand, 162 00:08:50,969 --> 00:08:53,109 Speaker 1: the revenge everything. Yes, 163 00:08:53,119 --> 00:08:56,030 Speaker 2: but at the same time, supply wasn't keeping up so 164 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,299 Speaker 2: that it took time to come back online. Exactly. So 165 00:08:58,309 --> 00:09:02,799 Speaker 2: that actually drove higher inflation. But we did see inflation 166 00:09:02,809 --> 00:09:06,728 Speaker 2: coming down this year. Combination of high interest rates as 167 00:09:06,739 --> 00:09:09,228 Speaker 2: well as normalizing supply chain. How 168 00:09:09,239 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: is it that interest rates have anything to do with inflation? 169 00:09:12,409 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: How is it that the US decided? Ok. 170 00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:19,130 Speaker 1: In order to curb inflation to dampen inflation, I'm gonna 171 00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: aggressively hike interest rates. What's that link 172 00:09:21,849 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 2: there? Right. Right. So I think inflation can be supply 173 00:09:24,849 --> 00:09:25,390 Speaker 2: driven 174 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:30,289 Speaker 2: all demand driven. So the inflation that witnessed over the past, 175 00:09:30,299 --> 00:09:32,690 Speaker 2: I don't know, 12 to 18 months is probably a combination, 176 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,359 Speaker 2: a bit of both. So the interest rate part is 177 00:09:36,369 --> 00:09:39,900 Speaker 2: actually to tackle the demand. Right. So when you have 178 00:09:39,909 --> 00:09:44,309 Speaker 2: higher interest rates, cost of money becomes higher. Sure. So 179 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:49,380 Speaker 2: theoretically it's going to dampen demand, you know, where people 180 00:09:49,390 --> 00:09:52,349 Speaker 2: think twice about spending a little bit more. 181 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:56,030 Speaker 2: Sometimes there's a lag effect. It is not like immediate, 182 00:09:56,039 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 2: the rate hikes do not have an immediate impact on 183 00:09:58,210 --> 00:10:01,830 Speaker 2: demand economy. That's why it took time actually for inflation 184 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:02,450 Speaker 2: to come 185 00:10:02,460 --> 00:10:07,479 Speaker 1: off. Right? Ok, I understand now. So let's fast forward 186 00:10:07,489 --> 00:10:10,580 Speaker 1: to what's happening now. The latest news is that the feds, 187 00:10:10,909 --> 00:10:15,468 Speaker 1: they signaled three cuts in 2024. So tell me this 188 00:10:15,479 --> 00:10:19,030 Speaker 1: is overall good news, right? What happens now? 189 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,330 Speaker 2: Well, if you look at the market reaction to the 190 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:27,580 Speaker 2: very Dovish fed statements recently, definitely good news for investors. Yeah, 191 00:10:27,869 --> 00:10:32,130 Speaker 2: we are anticipating like the fed, there will be three 192 00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:35,409 Speaker 2: rate cuts starting sometime in second half. Ok? 193 00:10:35,770 --> 00:10:39,299 Speaker 2: But some of the market participants are even more aggressive 194 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:42,530 Speaker 2: pricing in a rate cut in the first half and 195 00:10:42,539 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: maybe 100 basis points or even more. That means four 196 00:10:45,969 --> 00:10:49,130 Speaker 2: or five rate cuts. So in our view, that's maybe 197 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:53,159 Speaker 2: a little bit too aggressive because, well, yes, indeed, we 198 00:10:53,169 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: saw inflation 199 00:10:55,299 --> 00:10:58,710 Speaker 2: moderating. It is still actually a bit higher. A tad 200 00:10:58,719 --> 00:10:59,250 Speaker 2: higher 201 00:10:59,260 --> 00:10:59,950 Speaker 1: things are still 202 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:04,989 Speaker 2: expensive. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like 3% fat is targeting 2%. 203 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,479 Speaker 2: So is still not exactly back to normal yet. So 204 00:11:09,489 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: I think the timing of rate cuts is really uncertain 205 00:11:13,090 --> 00:11:17,020 Speaker 2: and the fed will really be very data dependent. So 206 00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:19,780 Speaker 2: it's a bit premature to say, ok, now I'm seeing 207 00:11:19,789 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: inflation moderating at 3.1% and therefore the, 208 00:11:23,283 --> 00:11:27,023 Speaker 2: that is going to cut rates in first quarter, too early. 209 00:11:27,033 --> 00:11:27,182 Speaker 2: It's 210 00:11:27,192 --> 00:11:29,322 Speaker 1: excitement. Right. I'm putting it down to just 211 00:11:29,333 --> 00:11:32,802 Speaker 2: markets can overreact to time. But I think I also 212 00:11:32,812 --> 00:11:37,171 Speaker 2: wanted to point out there are actually also factors to consider. Right. 213 00:11:37,182 --> 00:11:41,953 Speaker 2: That could keep inflation maybe a little bit higher for longer. 214 00:11:42,002 --> 00:11:44,252 Speaker 2: I think on a fundamental basis, if you look at 215 00:11:44,263 --> 00:11:47,102 Speaker 2: the US again because I think that's a key economy 216 00:11:47,112 --> 00:11:51,181 Speaker 2: that's driving global markets. US, unemployment is still very 217 00:11:51,265 --> 00:11:53,245 Speaker 2: low compared to historical levels 218 00:11:53,255 --> 00:11:55,314 Speaker 1: means more people have jobs, more 219 00:11:55,325 --> 00:11:58,145 Speaker 2: people have jobs and wages are still going higher, right? 220 00:11:58,155 --> 00:12:02,315 Speaker 2: So that's going to lend some upward pressure on inflation. 221 00:12:02,325 --> 00:12:04,786 Speaker 1: Yeah, because when people have jobs, they have the means 222 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:05,454 Speaker 1: to spend 223 00:12:05,466 --> 00:12:09,486 Speaker 2: exactly at the same time if you've noticed on the 224 00:12:09,495 --> 00:12:13,096 Speaker 2: geopolitical side, some of the trade, like for example, the 225 00:12:13,106 --> 00:12:16,515 Speaker 2: Red Sea, yes, some of the geopolitical tensions is causing 226 00:12:16,526 --> 00:12:19,145 Speaker 2: rerouting of trade routes that could actually lead 227 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 2: to higher shipping costs and therefore indirectly inflation, it's going 228 00:12:23,570 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: to lead to higher costs and then therefore higher inflation, right? 229 00:12:26,729 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 2: So that's a more on the supply side. And therefore 230 00:12:29,289 --> 00:12:33,460 Speaker 2: these combination of factors could add to the uncertainty about 231 00:12:33,469 --> 00:12:34,780 Speaker 2: the inflation trajectory, 232 00:12:34,789 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: right? Why do the rate cuts need to be done 233 00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: in such a measured way? Because at the risk of 234 00:12:40,770 --> 00:12:44,989 Speaker 1: sounding naive, couldn't they just slash it one time and say, OK, 235 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: one time go 25 236 00:12:46,309 --> 00:12:49,289 Speaker 1: basis points, 100 basis points and then bring it down 237 00:12:49,299 --> 00:12:51,799 Speaker 1: at least to a level that the feds think everyone 238 00:12:51,809 --> 00:12:52,809 Speaker 1: is agreeable to 239 00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:55,549 Speaker 2: good question. So I think to answer that question, I 240 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,359 Speaker 2: think two points here to make, I think one is 241 00:12:58,369 --> 00:13:02,809 Speaker 2: the fed has been accused of hiking rates too late. 242 00:13:03,130 --> 00:13:07,809 Speaker 2: So they do not want to be accused of repeating 243 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 2: the mistake again by cutting rates too early. Therefore, they 244 00:13:11,210 --> 00:13:12,848 Speaker 2: are very cautious 245 00:13:13,450 --> 00:13:16,729 Speaker 2: in making any rate cuts. And I think they will 246 00:13:16,739 --> 00:13:20,409 Speaker 2: maintain that very cautious stance. And also if you take 247 00:13:20,419 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 2: a step back for those who, who are a bit older, 248 00:13:24,599 --> 00:13:27,449 Speaker 2: if you look at the seventies, right? There was also 249 00:13:27,460 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: a similar episode where inflation was very high and then 250 00:13:31,849 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: the FED had to hide interest rate to tame inflation. 251 00:13:36,119 --> 00:13:40,729 Speaker 2: But then they actually, once they saw inflation coming off, 252 00:13:40,739 --> 00:13:44,450 Speaker 2: they actually cut interest rates and that led to a 253 00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:46,450 Speaker 2: resurgence in inflation. 254 00:13:47,630 --> 00:13:50,349 Speaker 1: So it was a pendulum swing. Yes, exactly. 255 00:13:50,359 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: So, so I think the fed now if you look 256 00:13:52,090 --> 00:13:54,299 Speaker 2: at fair Chair Power, I don't think he was 257 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:55,469 Speaker 2: to go in. 258 00:13:55,609 --> 00:13:58,539 Speaker 1: So you mentioned in an environment of higher interest rate 259 00:13:58,549 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: benefits one group and it doesn't benefit another group when 260 00:14:02,849 --> 00:14:06,330 Speaker 1: it comes to falling interest rates, which if all goes well. 261 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:08,739 Speaker 1: And Jay Powell says, ok, we can start cutting rates 262 00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:11,718 Speaker 1: now and we do see those falling interest rates who 263 00:14:11,729 --> 00:14:12,729 Speaker 1: would it benefit? 264 00:14:13,710 --> 00:14:19,229 Speaker 2: Well, obviously those servicing their loans, their mortgage mortgages, I 265 00:14:19,239 --> 00:14:22,849 Speaker 2: think they will be happier because yeah, at least you 266 00:14:22,859 --> 00:14:25,890 Speaker 2: don't have to pay as much interest right from an 267 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:30,330 Speaker 2: investor standpoint. I think it will benefit both equity and 268 00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: bond investors because if you look at bonds, there is 269 00:14:33,409 --> 00:14:33,969 Speaker 2: this negative 270 00:14:34,065 --> 00:14:37,625 Speaker 2: correlation between bond prices and interest rates when interest rate 271 00:14:37,635 --> 00:14:42,044 Speaker 2: goes higher, bond prices go lower and vice versa. So 272 00:14:42,054 --> 00:14:44,465 Speaker 2: I think it would be a very conducive environment for 273 00:14:44,474 --> 00:14:47,804 Speaker 2: fixed income. Ok? But at the same time for equities, 274 00:14:47,815 --> 00:14:50,705 Speaker 2: as long as growth stays up, interest rate coming off 275 00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:54,455 Speaker 2: will also benefit equity investors. At the same time, 276 00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:58,630 Speaker 2: in particular, more interest rate sensitive sectors. For example, that 277 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,950 Speaker 2: Singapore reads that we mentioned earlier on some of the 278 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,489 Speaker 2: growth sectors which the valuation can also be sensitive to 279 00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:10,500 Speaker 2: interest rates, usually higher interest rates negatively impact the valuation 280 00:15:10,510 --> 00:15:12,369 Speaker 2: of these growth stocks. So if interest rate were to 281 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:15,270 Speaker 2: come off, right, then it will be deemed as positive 282 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:15,619 Speaker 2: for these 283 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:18,830 Speaker 1: growth stocks. Ok. That's excellent stuff. I'm glad you brought 284 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,479 Speaker 1: that up because this is the part of the 285 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:25,429 Speaker 1: where I wanted to tackle how interest rate movements affect 286 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:30,599 Speaker 1: our portfolios. So what role did high interest rates play 287 00:15:30,609 --> 00:15:33,809 Speaker 1: for our investments? I remember investors were flocking to things 288 00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:38,340 Speaker 1: like your 10 year treasuries, your Singapore government bonds, high 289 00:15:38,349 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: yield instruments. Was this why everyone was flocking to these 290 00:15:43,450 --> 00:15:45,530 Speaker 1: high yield products? And then when the interest rates start 291 00:15:45,539 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: to fall, 292 00:15:46,849 --> 00:15:51,570 Speaker 1: what do I do now? That I'm in these portfolio instruments, right? 293 00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:56,159 Speaker 2: I think definitely we saw very strong flow cash deposits, 294 00:15:56,169 --> 00:15:59,669 Speaker 2: fixed deposits because of the very high interest rate environment 295 00:16:00,409 --> 00:16:06,919 Speaker 2: and investors are flowing to these instruments because also partly 296 00:16:06,929 --> 00:16:10,710 Speaker 2: because of the macro uncertainty. So they are not so sure, right. 297 00:16:10,719 --> 00:16:12,869 Speaker 2: So the best way is to stay short term, 298 00:16:13,239 --> 00:16:16,039 Speaker 2: go to cash, go to deposits, go to money market 299 00:16:16,049 --> 00:16:21,340 Speaker 2: funds where the level of risk is low, right? But 300 00:16:21,469 --> 00:16:24,849 Speaker 2: if we get a falling interest rate, what happens is 301 00:16:24,859 --> 00:16:27,619 Speaker 2: these short term deposits when they mature, 302 00:16:28,309 --> 00:16:30,679 Speaker 2: you may not be able to get back into them 303 00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:32,590 Speaker 2: at the same level of rate. So that is actually 304 00:16:32,599 --> 00:16:36,909 Speaker 2: increasing a reinvestment risk, right? It's always good to have 305 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: some cash buffer, you know, downside protection for advice. But, 306 00:16:41,450 --> 00:16:43,900 Speaker 2: but I think given the fact that we, you know, 307 00:16:43,909 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: our base case is 308 00:16:44,844 --> 00:16:47,854 Speaker 2: really for a soft landing for inflation to moderate for 309 00:16:47,864 --> 00:16:51,385 Speaker 2: fed to start cutting rates. I think it's time to 310 00:16:51,395 --> 00:16:56,695 Speaker 2: really redeploy some of this cash into bonds and equities, right? 311 00:16:56,705 --> 00:16:59,784 Speaker 2: But obviously, I think on the bond side, we still 312 00:16:59,794 --> 00:17:01,304 Speaker 2: want to stay with quality, 313 00:17:01,659 --> 00:17:05,810 Speaker 2: right? So you want to have more exposure into investment 314 00:17:05,819 --> 00:17:09,939 Speaker 2: grade bonds where the default risk tends to be a 315 00:17:09,949 --> 00:17:13,050 Speaker 2: bit lower save versus high yield credit. So just don't 316 00:17:13,060 --> 00:17:14,790 Speaker 2: just go blindly chasing after 317 00:17:15,390 --> 00:17:16,750 Speaker 1: higher interest rate 318 00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:21,109 Speaker 2: or high high bonds because sometimes there's this risk with 319 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,329 Speaker 2: what trade off. And 320 00:17:22,339 --> 00:17:24,420 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought that up. Also, it, it's 321 00:17:24,430 --> 00:17:29,250 Speaker 1: worth clarifying. So you're saying not necessarily stop looking at 322 00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:32,270 Speaker 1: your higher yield products, but it's time to start thinking 323 00:17:32,339 --> 00:17:36,729 Speaker 1: about moving into other refinancing, taking the extra cash and 324 00:17:36,819 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: pumping it into other safer bets like your bonds or 325 00:17:39,410 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 1: rather 326 00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:43,089 Speaker 2: actually not necessarily a safer bets because we are actually 327 00:17:43,099 --> 00:17:45,660 Speaker 2: advocating or suggesting clients to move out of the so 328 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:49,579 Speaker 2: called very low risk cash deposits, which are high yielding 329 00:17:49,589 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: at this moment, but may not be as high yielding 330 00:17:51,770 --> 00:17:52,669 Speaker 2: 12 months down the 331 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: road. That's the thing. So I'm glad you said that 332 00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: my question was going to be, when do we start pivoting? 333 00:17:58,910 --> 00:18:01,089 Speaker 2: I think we could start actually looking at it right 334 00:18:01,099 --> 00:18:07,530 Speaker 2: now because investors will be looking ahead. So for while 335 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:10,079 Speaker 2: you say you may decide to stay in cash for now, 336 00:18:10,239 --> 00:18:11,650 Speaker 2: 12 months down the road, 337 00:18:11,969 --> 00:18:16,030 Speaker 2: the other investments like bonds and equities may become more expensive, 338 00:18:16,219 --> 00:18:18,030 Speaker 2: the prices may have actually. 339 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,599 Speaker 1: So buying in low when bonds are not looking great 340 00:18:21,609 --> 00:18:22,790 Speaker 1: now would be a good 341 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,020 Speaker 2: move, right? In the sense that bond prices, we think 342 00:18:26,030 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: that there are still pockets of value within the bonds 343 00:18:30,050 --> 00:18:31,349 Speaker 2: and as well as equity space. 344 00:18:31,444 --> 00:18:34,814 Speaker 2: Um So bonds, I mentioned investment grade bonds, I think 345 00:18:34,824 --> 00:18:38,104 Speaker 2: that is still the place to be in. And you know, 346 00:18:38,114 --> 00:18:41,324 Speaker 2: they are actually pretty defensive as well, especially if you 347 00:18:41,334 --> 00:18:45,114 Speaker 2: stick with the higher quality names, right where the default 348 00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:49,014 Speaker 2: risk is, you know, relatively low. Ok. Obviously not, not 349 00:18:49,025 --> 00:18:50,505 Speaker 2: as safe as cash, 350 00:18:52,170 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 2: but I think it's worthwhile taking the additional bit of risk. 351 00:18:55,729 --> 00:18:55,939 Speaker 2: You 352 00:18:55,949 --> 00:18:58,849 Speaker 1: know how there's that adage right time in the market 353 00:18:58,859 --> 00:19:01,910 Speaker 1: and not timing the market. This sounds a little bit 354 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,780 Speaker 1: like the opposite, just a little bit. This is where 355 00:19:04,790 --> 00:19:06,540 Speaker 1: timing does matter 356 00:19:06,959 --> 00:19:09,260 Speaker 1: a little bit because if you stay too long with 357 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:12,219 Speaker 1: your low risk products, you might actually lose out on 358 00:19:12,229 --> 00:19:14,619 Speaker 1: stuff that might be attractive later on or more expensive 359 00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:15,899 Speaker 1: later on down the road. Right. 360 00:19:15,910 --> 00:19:18,380 Speaker 2: Frankly, I would actually turn it around to say that timing, 361 00:19:18,390 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: the market is always very difficult. Right. So, although we 362 00:19:22,050 --> 00:19:23,300 Speaker 2: try to be tactical 363 00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:26,390 Speaker 2: about things to move things, shift things around, but we, we, 364 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,550 Speaker 2: we think that it's actually important to maintain a core portfolio, 365 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,270 Speaker 2: a mixture of cash bonds and equities because while we 366 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,569 Speaker 2: try our best, very best to predict where the economies 367 00:19:37,579 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: are going, where the markets are going. Nobody can really, 368 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,930 Speaker 1: nobody has, nobody has the real, not even Jay Powell, 369 00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:47,739 Speaker 2: but it just, just maybe a case in point, case 370 00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 2: in point is if you look at the beginning of 371 00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:56,689 Speaker 2: 2023 consensus are actually all predicting a US recession. Yeah. Right. Exactly. 372 00:19:56,739 --> 00:20:00,629 Speaker 2: A very bearish outlook and 12 months down the road, 373 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,369 Speaker 2: we did not get the US recession 374 00:20:03,250 --> 00:20:07,010 Speaker 2: and equity markets did very well for markets not too 375 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:08,420 Speaker 2: badly as well. 376 00:20:08,579 --> 00:20:11,310 Speaker 1: I mean, they seem to have weathered, everything that was 377 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:14,660 Speaker 1: thrown their way. I mean, I remember talking about the 378 00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:17,170 Speaker 1: big R word as if you know, oh, we need 379 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:20,060 Speaker 1: to be scared of this. Now today you can mention 380 00:20:20,069 --> 00:20:22,188 Speaker 1: the R word and no one really bets an eyelid, 381 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:23,180 Speaker 1: not so much, 382 00:20:23,189 --> 00:20:26,670 Speaker 2: which actually raises another concern as well because I think 383 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,349 Speaker 2: the economy is not exactly without this. 384 00:20:30,959 --> 00:20:33,649 Speaker 2: We still have to bear in mind that as we mentioned, 385 00:20:33,660 --> 00:20:37,430 Speaker 2: inflation may not come down one straight line. We are 386 00:20:37,439 --> 00:20:40,410 Speaker 2: actually anticipating global growth, including that of us 387 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,099 Speaker 2: to soften in 2024. And then coupled with the fact 388 00:20:44,109 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: that apart from geopolitics, we also have major elections coming 389 00:20:48,770 --> 00:20:49,349 Speaker 2: on in 390 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:52,829 Speaker 1: changing of the Guard in so many places in 391 00:20:53,130 --> 00:20:59,030 Speaker 2: Asia, as well as in Indonesia, right. So you know, 392 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,859 Speaker 2: these political elections sometimes can create marker uncertainty. So we 393 00:21:03,869 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 2: need to be conscious of the fact that volatility could 394 00:21:07,050 --> 00:21:08,619 Speaker 2: still spike from time to time. 395 00:21:09,219 --> 00:21:12,369 Speaker 2: So the best approach again for us is really to 396 00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:17,869 Speaker 2: spread your bets, avoid over concentration in any pockets, then 397 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,329 Speaker 2: you probably will have a smoother ride as 398 00:21:21,339 --> 00:21:24,550 Speaker 1: smooth as can be as smooth as can be. Ok. 399 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: So the one part that I think really affects us 400 00:21:27,569 --> 00:21:32,099 Speaker 1: all one way or another in a very uncertain environment, 401 00:21:32,109 --> 00:21:35,290 Speaker 1: especially to do with the interest rates, we're not sure, 402 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:36,819 Speaker 1: you know what kind of journey is going to be 403 00:21:36,829 --> 00:21:37,250 Speaker 1: like 404 00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: our debts. So what would you advise in terms of 405 00:21:42,729 --> 00:21:47,209 Speaker 1: managing things like our mortgage loans, our car loans, all 406 00:21:47,219 --> 00:21:50,300 Speaker 1: our owings that are pegged to interest rates. Would you 407 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: advise refinancing? And there's also that question about whether to 408 00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:54,938 Speaker 1: go with 409 00:21:55,025 --> 00:21:56,935 Speaker 1: fixed or floating rates. Right. Well, 410 00:21:56,944 --> 00:22:00,744 Speaker 2: maybe before we go to whether to refinance, maybe I 411 00:22:00,755 --> 00:22:04,625 Speaker 2: could share some of our projections in terms of interest rates. Right. 412 00:22:04,635 --> 00:22:07,805 Speaker 2: We are expecting the US fed. Yeah, to cut rate 413 00:22:07,814 --> 00:22:11,925 Speaker 2: three times in 2024 starting some somewhere in the second half. 414 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:16,170 Speaker 2: So Singapore benchmark rates, interest rates are likely to follow 415 00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:20,139 Speaker 2: in the same direction magnitude could differ slightly, right. So 416 00:22:20,150 --> 00:22:23,069 Speaker 2: for example, one of the key benchmark rates that we 417 00:22:23,079 --> 00:22:26,540 Speaker 2: track is the three months. So where I think a 418 00:22:26,550 --> 00:22:27,569 Speaker 2: lot of mortgage rates, 419 00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:30,689 Speaker 2: loans are packed to this new benchmark rate as well, 420 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,979 Speaker 2: we are actually projecting so a three months or to 421 00:22:33,989 --> 00:22:40,770 Speaker 2: decline from 3.8% to 3.25%. Ok. Right. So what this 422 00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:47,589 Speaker 2: means if you say refinance now and lock in for 423 00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:51,020 Speaker 2: say three year rate, depending on what the rate is, 424 00:22:51,030 --> 00:22:53,260 Speaker 2: you may potentially lose out 425 00:22:53,890 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: on the lower rates that's going to be coming in 426 00:22:55,890 --> 00:23:00,619 Speaker 2: in 12 months, right. So, so that's the trajectory. So theoretically, 427 00:23:01,010 --> 00:23:03,750 Speaker 2: I know friends around me that I talked to, they 428 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,770 Speaker 2: are also thinking about whether to refinance some of them 429 00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:08,939 Speaker 2: will refinance and keep it to a very shorter turn. 430 00:23:08,949 --> 00:23:12,699 Speaker 2: So they have the flexibility precisely to refinance at the 431 00:23:12,709 --> 00:23:15,650 Speaker 2: lower rate should you know this low interest rate thinking 432 00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:18,979 Speaker 2: expectation do materialize. Yeah. Correct. Right. So, so I think 433 00:23:18,989 --> 00:23:22,260 Speaker 2: that's one school of thought, right? But overall, 434 00:23:22,729 --> 00:23:25,500 Speaker 2: I would say that in terms of debt management is 435 00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:26,310 Speaker 2: still the same, 436 00:23:26,699 --> 00:23:30,010 Speaker 2: but the fundamental basis is also you need to apart 437 00:23:30,020 --> 00:23:32,540 Speaker 2: from just refinancing fixed rate and what not, but you 438 00:23:32,550 --> 00:23:35,688 Speaker 2: still need to watch your own debt levels, of course, 439 00:23:35,699 --> 00:23:39,229 Speaker 2: and manage it according to your income because what's comfortable 440 00:23:39,239 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 2: for you, what is comfortable for you? The last thing 441 00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:43,530 Speaker 2: you want is actually to have two high debt levels 442 00:23:43,540 --> 00:23:46,750 Speaker 2: that you will struggle to keep up with in terms 443 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,300 Speaker 2: of interest payments and loan 444 00:23:48,369 --> 00:23:52,650 Speaker 1: repayments. So that question then about fixed versus floating rates, right? 445 00:23:52,660 --> 00:23:53,410 Speaker 1: Moving forward. 446 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: But what should we do? Especially when there's that uncertainty there, 447 00:23:57,010 --> 00:23:57,488 Speaker 1: if you 448 00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: do have the expectation that rates are coming down, right? 449 00:24:01,930 --> 00:24:04,839 Speaker 2: I would say that you would probably want to stick 450 00:24:04,849 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: with shorter or floating interest rate. So you float down together, 451 00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:09,089 Speaker 2: so 452 00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:12,390 Speaker 1: yourself flexibility and the comfort to move around a 453 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,619 Speaker 2: little correct, the shorter tenure will give you the flexibility 454 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: and then the floating will give you the benefit of 455 00:24:17,010 --> 00:24:20,089 Speaker 2: enjoying that lower rates. Should it materialize? 456 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,430 Speaker 1: Eddie? It's been a real pleasure to have you on 457 00:24:23,439 --> 00:24:25,939 Speaker 1: money talks, you've given us so much to think about. 458 00:24:25,949 --> 00:24:30,030 Speaker 1: And more importantly, you've clarified quite a number of snags 459 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,369 Speaker 1: for us when it comes to interest rates. So thank 460 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,319 Speaker 1: you very much for clearing the fog around interest rates 461 00:24:35,329 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: and giving us an idea of what to do this year. 462 00:24:37,650 --> 00:24:38,079 Speaker 1: My pleasure 463 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,300 Speaker 1: and of course, a big thank you to you listener. 464 00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:43,770 Speaker 1: Do us a favor. Hey, after this, let us know 465 00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 1: what you think about this episode. You can find us 466 00:24:46,729 --> 00:24:50,050 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcast. We're also on Spotify and guess what? 467 00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: We're also on youtube as well. The team behind Money 468 00:24:53,810 --> 00:24:58,430 Speaker 1: Talks is Joanne Chan Tiffany Ang Christina Robert Saint and 469 00:24:58,439 --> 00:24:59,119 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Heng.