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Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to a brand new episode of Deep

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Speaker 1: Dive in a brand new venue. Can you tell? Can

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Speaker 1: you I can still smell the newness, right?

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Speaker 1: It's another episode of Deep Dive and you big shout

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Speaker 1: out to you guys. Thanks so much for jumping into

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Speaker 1: our recycling episode, giving us comments and also taking part

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Speaker 1: in our survey as usual crispy and I are back

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Speaker 1: here for another topic today. What's on the agenda? We're

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Speaker 1: talking about taxis. Ok. So I have a quick question.

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Speaker 1: I know you drive, but tell me when was the

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Speaker 1: last time you took

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Speaker 1: a taxi? I took a grab. Actually not a taxi

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Speaker 1: just the other day when I had to go and

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Speaker 1: pick up a car from the workshop. No, as in

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Speaker 1: a proper taxi. The one on top with the light

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Speaker 1: that says on call all busy. I think when I

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Speaker 1: went to the airport because I booked a grab but

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Speaker 1: the taxi came, which is part of our discussion is

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Speaker 1: exactly our discussion today

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Speaker 1: to help us with this. We have two guests today.

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Speaker 1: Associate Professor Walter T from the Singapore. University of Social Sciences. Hey,

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Speaker 1: good to be here. And Mr Ban Kam Chong, a

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Speaker 1: taxi driver with strides, also the General Secretary of the

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Speaker 1: National Taxi Association. Good day. Thanks for having me here.

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Speaker 1: This topic has been one that it's been circling around

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Speaker 1: for a while and it's come to light again because

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Speaker 1: of the recent announcement that surcharges will become permanent.

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Speaker 1: So Walter, I start with you. You are a transport

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Speaker 1: economist and you've seen the numbers change over the years.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you some numbers. The taxi population in

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Speaker 1: Singapore has shrunk 2014. It was 28,736 as of May

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Speaker 1: this year, it's 13

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Speaker 1: 1003 130. Now, that's a huge number that has dropped

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Speaker 1: in terms of number of taxis on our roads. So

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Speaker 1: you know that song video killed the radio star. So

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Speaker 1: in this case, I don't know. So he he's old

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Speaker 1: enough to know that song.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the app killed the actual taxi

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Speaker 2: I think to be more precise, the ride hailing killed

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Speaker 2: the old taxi model, right? But it didn't kill the

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Speaker 2: taxi per se. So when you quoted those numbers, right,

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Speaker 2: what's been going on is the fleet of taxis has

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Speaker 2: been shrinking over time. There have been more and more

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Speaker 2: ride hailing vehicles registered but for the taxis themselves, right?

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Speaker 2: It's not the case that for example, all those taxi

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Speaker 2: drivers have been

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Speaker 2: eliminated. A lot of the taxi drivers have simply gone

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Speaker 2: over to becoming private hire drivers and even for the

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Speaker 2: remaining taxi drivers. Actually, most of them today make most

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Speaker 2: of their revenue using a ride hailing booking platform or

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Speaker 2: using even their own taxi company platform, which is using

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Speaker 2: a ride hailing method to arrange fares rather than a

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Speaker 2: meter fare. So you know our discussion about fair charges

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Speaker 2: actually that only applies to the meter, fair part of

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Speaker 2: the business just

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Speaker 2: and apply to the ride. Hailing working part where where

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Speaker 2: the fares vary according to however, the platforms one affected.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Ok, let's bring in Mr B. So you actually

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Speaker 1: drive a taxi. What changes have you seen in terms

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Speaker 1: of people wanting to be taxi drivers or preferring to

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Speaker 1: be on grab or Gojek or Tada any other platform

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Speaker 1: in the beginning? Yes, a lot of taxi driver actually

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Speaker 1: go to private hire vehicle. But recently we also noted

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Speaker 1: that some changes has been done because of the fair itself.

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Speaker 1: A lot of private hire initially was a taxi driver

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Speaker 1: come back to our taxi industry really come back. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we are not as there's some numbers going up and

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Speaker 1: why do they come back? Taxi? You are much more freedom.

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Speaker 1: If you don't like the app, we can go to

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Speaker 1: the airport. You don't like to go to the airport,

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Speaker 1: you can go to some of the place of interest,

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Speaker 1: we can go back a taxi stand. So let me

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Speaker 1: ask you about the surcharge when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: surcharge from a commuter point of view.

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Speaker 1: I am thinking it's so much easier for me to

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Speaker 1: just call a grab. Do you find that people have

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Speaker 1: no problem paying a surcharge from say changi or from

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Speaker 1: the zoo? Initially when there's a surcharge in the airport,

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Speaker 1: 6 to $8 there's some interview in the airport itself,

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Speaker 1: the response from the locals, they are positive so that

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Speaker 1: I just came our country one or twice a year.

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Speaker 1: So pay additional $3 surcharge is ok.

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Speaker 1: It's not everyday issue. Ok, so that's for airport, right?

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Speaker 1: So what about the parks? Are they mostly tourists or

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Speaker 1: mostly they are tourist. The increment in the search is

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Speaker 1: not to increase the income of taxi driver, it just

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Speaker 1: to make them park there and before to go there

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Speaker 1: to get the driver, taxi drivers to show up at

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Speaker 1: those locations, just wait there. And also it's actually good

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Speaker 1: for Singapore as a tourist attraction. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: wait one hour for taxi.

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Speaker 1: Ok, Walter, do you think that the surcharges are incentives

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Speaker 1: for drivers or they just drive away people?

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Speaker 2: The surcharges the entire point of them is to try

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Speaker 2: to change the fare system for taxi? So that taxi

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Speaker 2: drivers actually have this reason to go to the places

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Speaker 2: where the third charges are. I mean that's the purpose

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Speaker 2: of the fair system, right? The faire system in a

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Speaker 2: way has to try to balance supply in the,

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Speaker 2: if the fares are too high, nobody wants to take

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Speaker 2: the taxis or the ride and then you have to

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Speaker 2: adjust them lower. But when they're too low, you don't

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Speaker 2: have enough supply coming into the places where you want

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Speaker 2: there to be the drivers. And that's why the fair

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Speaker 2: had to go up in this case.

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Speaker 1: So are they too low in these locations?

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Speaker 2: So I think the problem is if you have a

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Speaker 2: current fare level before the third charges and you have

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Speaker 2: repeated complaints by venue operators by the tourists and

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Speaker 2: so on that they're waiting there and they can't get

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Speaker 2: a taxi. To me, that's a sign that the fares

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Speaker 2: are not competitive enough to convince the drivers to be

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Speaker 2: there and that's why they

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Speaker 1: have

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Speaker 2: to

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Speaker 1: go up. We're just

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Speaker 1: talking about this, right? Especially in places like Changi and

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Speaker 1: some of these tourist destinations, right? What if there are

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Speaker 1: no taxis when you arrive at your arrival hall and

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Speaker 1: then you have to wait for taxis, but there's a

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Speaker 1: big sign there that says you can just download the

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Speaker 1: grab app and then you can get a grab,

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Speaker 1: maybe we don't even need taxis. So my question is,

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Speaker 1: do we really need to have taxis waiting for people

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Speaker 1: or will it be evolved eventually to a system where

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Speaker 1: everyone who comes into Singapore can simply catch a ride

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Speaker 1: through an app? It all depends on passenger needs certain passengers.

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Speaker 1: They have Children below 1.35. Definitely they have. That's a

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Speaker 1: good point. This is a whole other discussion because why

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Speaker 1: taxis don't need

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Speaker 1: car seats for Children and regular cars. Exactly. But his

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Speaker 1: point is that if, because he has to meet different

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Speaker 1: demands of tourists. Right. So for example, maybe elderly who

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Speaker 1: don't have access to an app, don't have data to book.

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Speaker 1: But then again, a tourist showing up at the airport

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Speaker 1: could go to the counter. And there's someone with all

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Speaker 1: the devices say I will book on your behalf. We

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Speaker 1: can have a kind of customer service for those who

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Speaker 1: are new to the country.

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Speaker 1: You don't need taxis literally lining up and waiting. But

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Speaker 1: that's a really extreme view. Walter,

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Speaker 2: this is an interesting discussion because the policy problem we're

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Speaker 2: currently having today is that the market has already decided

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Speaker 2: that ride hailing booking through your app is the way

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Speaker 2: that most consumers in Singapore want to go. And that

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Speaker 2: reflected in the fact that the share of all the

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Speaker 2: rides which are actually by meter fare has been going

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Speaker 2: down continuously and it's probably going to go down further

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Speaker 2: and in the future because

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Speaker 2: most of the locals who are still using meter fares,

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Speaker 2: they are actually our older population. Most of the younger

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Speaker 2: ones will use apps today. And so the problem now

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Speaker 2: becomes how do we provide enough meter fare service to

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Speaker 2: cater to elderly Singaporeans because if there's no motivation for

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Speaker 2: the drivers to turn on the meter and provide the

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Speaker 2: meter service, these older Singaporeans will be standing at the

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Speaker 2: taxi stand and nobody will

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Speaker 1: ever show up. So there will be an underserved group

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Speaker 1: of people.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? There's so many things that

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Speaker 1: we can't hold back progress just because a small group

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Speaker 1: I'm saying we need to assist them and they will

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Speaker 1: learn to use it. Like my mother in law didn't

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Speaker 1: have whatsapp for many years. Finally, we taught her how

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Speaker 1: to use it. Now she loves it. She uses it

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Speaker 1: all the time, but my mom still is quite resistant.

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Speaker 1: I book quite often for her on her behalf, but

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Speaker 1: eventually I can see her coming around and being able

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Speaker 1: to book on her own. So it's just a matter

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Speaker 1: of time is a transition. But let me challenge you

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Speaker 1: about this. So whenever there is a Mr T break

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Speaker 1: down, for example, or it's a heavy rain or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that bugs me terribly is the surge pricing, right?

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Speaker 1: So from here, one north to my home, which is

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Speaker 1: in the north, it can be upwards of 50 $60

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Speaker 1: which to me is ridiculous. But if I could just

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Speaker 1: go to the taxi stand below and get a meter fare,

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Speaker 1: it's affordable and accessible. Isn't that? How would I go

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Speaker 1: if I'm a taxi driver? Why would I wait at

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Speaker 1: the

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Speaker 1: stand? When I can make more money through the app,

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Speaker 1: it's not, there are some driver who don't use platform

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Speaker 1: at all. A certain percentage. Why don't they use a platform?

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Speaker 1: They are not comfortable, they are not confident enough. Ok.

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Speaker 1: That's fair. Whether it's a booking or it's a street hill,

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Speaker 1: we have to maintain a certain balances to ensure that

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Speaker 1: everyone got his needs. And also it's an occupation for

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Speaker 1: still many taxi drivers, right? The more reason to pay

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Speaker 1: more for the service

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Speaker 1: is demand supply, right? Rainy day, more people take these rides.

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Speaker 1: So prices will go up. It goes back to what

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Speaker 1: is the role of public transport, right? You you consider

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Speaker 1: taxis to be part of this whole infrastructure of trains, buses, etcetera, Walter.

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Speaker 1: What do you think?

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Speaker 2: I think historically, taxis in Singapore have been very important

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Speaker 2: precisely because we know that many Singaporeans are not able

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Speaker 2: to own a car because of our very stringent car control.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, without taxis, we don't have this vital service

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Speaker 2: for those Singaporeans who can't quite afford to own a car.

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Speaker 2: But they do want a more premium service and public

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Speaker 2: transport and you're willing to pay for it. So taxi

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Speaker 2: fill a very important role there. But I think then

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Speaker 2: the question becomes, what's the correct price for this service?

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Speaker 2: And if the price that you're paying, is it sufficient

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Speaker 2: to actually provide the service sustainably? And I think that's

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Speaker 2: where this entire debate comes about because as a,

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Speaker 2: of course, you want the prices to be as low

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Speaker 2: as possible. But then if they're too low, the drivers

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Speaker 2: will say, why isn't it for me to join this industry?

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Speaker 2: Because it's hours are long and tiring and a lot

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Speaker 2: of customers don't treat you well. Right. So why would

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Speaker 2: you do this unless you're being fairly paid? And that's

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Speaker 2: what this is all about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about how the government is

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Speaker 1: working to deal with this. Actually, they've done quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: They are lowering operating costs. They've tried to reduce rental slightly.

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Speaker 1: They are making it easier for people to get taxi

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Speaker 1: licenses compared to before. Basically, the administrative things have become easier. Actually,

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Speaker 1: when we went to look at the grab rentals versus,

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Speaker 1: you know, the taxi rentals, there's still a difference, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: of course, is cheaper. Do you think they need to

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Speaker 1: do more or are these changes that they're trying to

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Speaker 1: make it more attractive for people to stay in the industry?

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Speaker 1: I believe that they have to do a little bit

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Speaker 1: more

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Speaker 1: because now our competition actually come from the right here

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Speaker 1: because of the fair itself. And the reason why the

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Speaker 1: rental is low because of the car can resell into

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Speaker 1: Singapore market again as a taxi, we can't, once we register,

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Speaker 1: we can't resign into the market, that's why they probably

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Speaker 1: can be a bit lower than us. Although we have

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Speaker 1: the same 10 years of seeing

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Speaker 2: just to make another point about the rental difference. It's

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Speaker 2: also because there's a different operating model

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Speaker 2: for the company that owns the vehicle for the platform, right?

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Speaker 2: Which is that for the taxi company, traditionally, they don't

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Speaker 2: take any commissions on the fares earned by the drivers,

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Speaker 2: the drivers keep everything. But in return for that, the

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Speaker 2: upfront cost of renting a taxi is higher for the

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Speaker 2: private hail platforms. All the money comes in from the commissions.

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Speaker 2: So that's why if they do have an affiliated rental company,

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Speaker 2: they will usually try to price that lower because they

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Speaker 2: expect to make up the difference on the

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Speaker 2: emissions to get away from the platform. So it's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a difference in operating model for the people

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Speaker 2: who own the vehicles here.

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Speaker 1: Then the question comes back to what we're talking about

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Speaker 1: earlier that taxi drivers can tap on both the taxi

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Speaker 1: platforms as well as the right hitting platforms. Now, is

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Speaker 1: that fair too, Walter? You're just saying how basically the

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Speaker 1: cost and incentives are different,

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Speaker 2: right? It's a bit different. But at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, it's the same source of demand, right? Basically

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Speaker 2: for most commuters in Singapore, most of us no longer

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Speaker 2: care

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Speaker 2: whether our request is fulfilled by a taxi or, or

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Speaker 2: a private car, right? So we go with whichever one

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Speaker 2: is cheaper. And in fact, for the major platforms, they

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Speaker 2: now do cross booking with any car product, right? So

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Speaker 2: when you book it, it could be a taxi or

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Speaker 2: a private hire car, but you pay the same fare regardless.

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Speaker 2: So I think the ultimate source of demand is about

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Speaker 2: the same. It's just about how you want to die

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Speaker 1: fit. If I'm a taxi driver, it would make sense

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Speaker 1: to tap on every platform available, right? Because then I

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Speaker 1: have more sources, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't seem to be the case. I mean the

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Speaker 1: private hire guys don't seem to want to be on

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Speaker 1: the taxi platforms. Why is that? First of all, you

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Speaker 1: need to have a taxi meter. Ok. So if you

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Speaker 1: have a taxi meter, you become taxi. It's a regulated

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Speaker 1: industry at the end of the day. What's the incentive

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Speaker 1: with being a regulated taxi driver or with a taxi company?

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Speaker 2: The one difference by law is that taxis have meters

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Speaker 2: and therefore they can take meter fares, they can take

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Speaker 2: a fair

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Speaker 2: anywhere in Singapore. It flags you down in the street.

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Speaker 2: That's the only difference. Otherwise for booked fares through a ride,

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Speaker 2: hailing platform, both taxis and private hire can fulfill that.

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Speaker 2: The reason why this is an issue in our market

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Speaker 2: today is that the meter fare has tended to lag

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Speaker 2: the private hire booked fare. And because of that first,

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Speaker 2: a lot of taxi drivers have not found using the

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Speaker 2: meter attractive because they may get paid less

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Speaker 2: for the same journey than taking a book fair. Second,

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Speaker 2: the passengers tend to nowadays prefer the certainty of knowing

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Speaker 2: how much you're going to pay and also being able

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Speaker 2: to compare between platforms. And because of that, the market

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Speaker 2: has shifted very decisively towards basically booked fares, right? Hill

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Speaker 2: fares

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Speaker 1: is

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Speaker 1: that your experience as well? I mean you are on

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Speaker 1: the other platforms as well. You find it very useful

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Speaker 1: to you. Yes, yes, I actually run only by standard taxi.

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Speaker 1: That means no matter which platform give me any job,

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Speaker 1: I only choose standard taxi. So in the meantime, I

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Speaker 1: just park my car in a taxi stand. Why do

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Speaker 1: you decide to do that? Why have you chosen to

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Speaker 1: do it this way? Because I felt that as a taxi,

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Speaker 1: I need to run by meter anyway, I lose up

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Speaker 1: I park my car in the taxi stand putting for

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Speaker 1: passion to come. So happened that there's a booking standard

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Speaker 1: taxi book come I just take and go. Yeah. Ok,

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Speaker 1: I think it's much better. Do you're not concerned that

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Speaker 1: you may be losing

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Speaker 1: out to others who are taking any kind of right?

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Speaker 1: I talked to some of the peers. I'm doing better

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Speaker 1: than them. Really? Yeah, they can do about 30 jobs

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Speaker 1: for 200 or $300 for fix. I do 20 jobs

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Speaker 1: for $300. Ok, because you still pick on your meter. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I do so on meters I see let's say I

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Speaker 1: cannot find a passenger on the street, I just go

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Speaker 1: to place of interest where they got surcharge and after

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Speaker 1: five pm they got 25% surcharge,

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Speaker 1: right? And the booking fee of $3.30. Ok. So the

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Speaker 1: amount actually those surcharges do make sense to you is

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Speaker 1: an incentive to go to those locations. Yes. And how

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Speaker 1: often when you're waiting at the taxi stand, do you

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Speaker 1: have to wait a long time? Depends which taxi stand.

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Speaker 1: Let's say you're in Taka should be very fast. 10

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Speaker 1: to 15 minutes near my shopping mall. There's no taxi

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Speaker 1: in the taxi stand, the Singapore you in again.

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Speaker 1: And so this is the issue even plaza Singapore on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday, let's say you gotta wait for taxis to

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Speaker 1: drop off somebody before the green light goes off. So

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Speaker 1: most people, I would say nine out of 10 people

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Speaker 1: would just book a grab my

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Speaker 1: experience on the ground. I'm not sure. What did you take?

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Speaker 1: Taxis?

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Speaker 2: I don't take taxis or private hire, but the data

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Speaker 2: basically shows that most Singaporeans nowadays take right here booking

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Speaker 1: people don't really care as long as they get a car,

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Speaker 1: even if you're on the app, right? It tells you, ok,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this is a busy period.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna search with taxi car. It doesn't matter for

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Speaker 1: me as long as I get a ride and I

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Speaker 1: get to my destination is what matters when this appeared

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Speaker 1: that it means that taxi had business so they broaden.

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Speaker 1: So you see, you can't get rid of the taxis

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Speaker 1: just yet or you just need more of the private

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Speaker 1: hire vehicles. Basically, it demand is applied also on go.

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Speaker 1: Also I receive a lot of job, but I don't

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Speaker 1: want to entertain why fair too low

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Speaker 1: compared to my taxi. So that's why we couldn't get

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Speaker 1: a lot of to do when you say too low

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Speaker 1: means it's not worth your time driving there picking them

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Speaker 1: up too low as in because the profit margin is

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Speaker 1: too low or does it not even cover your cost?

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Speaker 1: Because it can't be based on one transaction to example

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Speaker 1: hour I got a job is 930. Once you open

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Speaker 1: the door when you bought is a 930. But

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Speaker 1: if go to give me $8 job, does it make

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Speaker 1: sense for me to do so when he means 930

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Speaker 1: the minute you open the door is because your flag

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Speaker 1: down far is already for something. Am I right? For

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Speaker 1: 80 plus $3.30? Ok, so it flag down far plus surcharge.

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Speaker 1: So before you even get in the car, he's already

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Speaker 1: made some money, but some people are going to be

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Speaker 1: upset with you because this is the whole story. Last

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Speaker 1: time of how whenever the peak period comes, the taxis

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Speaker 1: will hide until the surcharges kick in,

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Speaker 1: then they say ok, now I'm here now. So the

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Speaker 1: taxi usually don't, they are in a taxi stand. It's

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Speaker 1: a legitimate way for them to try and make a

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Speaker 1: better living. Right? Can choose the lowest price, why not

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Speaker 1: choose the highest price?

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Speaker 1: So

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Speaker 2: maybe just to add on the supply issue for a

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Speaker 2: bit more. I think the problem that we have and

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Speaker 2: it's not an easy one to solve is that we

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Speaker 2: may not have enough supply during peak period because everybody

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Speaker 2: wants to take a taxi maybe a day

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Speaker 2: evening on Friday when it's raining, right? But just because

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Speaker 2: we have high fares and not enough supply during those

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Speaker 2: times does not mean you have enough demand for drivers

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Speaker 2: to make a living during the rest of the day.

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Speaker 2: That's a real problem. So and very hard to solve

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Speaker 2: this issue because if you have enough supply to satisfy

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Speaker 2: everybody who wants the taxi during the peak, those drivers

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Speaker 2: are going to be starving to death during the rest

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Speaker 2: of the day. And that's our issue, right? And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a fair point as well. Maybe.

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Speaker 1: Is there something that you want to suggest that might

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Speaker 1: improve the livelihood of taxi drivers? We've had taxi drivers

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Speaker 1: for a very, very long time. It's a very old industry.

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Speaker 1: There are still many, many people who make a living

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Speaker 1: out of it, put food on the table and support

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Speaker 1: their families. What do you think will help keep that

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00:18:07,067 --> 00:18:11,338
Speaker 1: industry alive? Just do as per usual do as what

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Speaker 1: you believe if you got an issue come to NT

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Speaker 1: NTA will help you.

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Speaker 1: This is the national taxi. So I don't think the

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Speaker 1: taxi is in a sunset industry. No, don't think so

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Speaker 1: until autonomous vehicle come out. That might be a problem

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Speaker 1: for taxi drivers. But at the moment, I think taxi

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Speaker 1: are very resilient. That's a very far autonomous is 2045 probably.

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Speaker 1: I am not too sure. All right. So taxis are

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Speaker 1: here to stay in European water

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Speaker 2: for

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Speaker 2: me, it's not about whether taxis stay or not. It's

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Speaker 2: about whether we have a service, a private transport service,

403
00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:44,290
Speaker 2: it meets

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00:18:44,375 --> 00:18:47,316
Speaker 2: people's needs. And I think for the drivers themselves, it's

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Speaker 2: up to them to choose the way of working. That

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00:18:49,786 --> 00:18:52,234
Speaker 2: makes the most sense for them. Some of them may

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Speaker 2: want to only provide meed service. That's fine. And I

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Speaker 2: think as long as they can make a living, as

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00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:58,515
Speaker 2: long as people want that, that's a good thing. But

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Speaker 2: others may choose to go into platforms or just rent

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00:19:01,965 --> 00:19:04,145
Speaker 2: a private hire vehicle only. And as long as they

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Speaker 2: can also make a living doing that, that's fine too. Right.

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Speaker 2: The drivers should be allowed to choose and the passengers

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Speaker 2: also have to choose the service that makes their needs

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Speaker 2: the best

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Speaker 1: does not over regulate, over control and over, prescribe some

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Speaker 1: of these things. People can figure it out on their

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Speaker 1: own and what works for you may not work for

419
00:19:20,261 --> 00:19:22,972
Speaker 1: me because my lifestyle may be different, my needs are different.

420
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Speaker 1: But if we have options then, you know, you can

421
00:19:25,482 --> 00:19:27,452
Speaker 1: kind of just find what fits your groove and make

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Speaker 1: it work for you. Yeah, I do think that the

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Speaker 1: industry is undergoing some changes. I see it even in

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Speaker 1: my own household, I still like talking to taxi drivers

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Speaker 1: but my at home will talk to you.

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Speaker 1: But my kids, they are completely agnostic. They don't care

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Speaker 1: as long as they get a ride and they will

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Speaker 1: not have the patience to wait at a taxi stand

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Speaker 1: or to flag down a taxi. So I think you

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Speaker 1: have rightly pointed out autonomous vehicles will come into play

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Speaker 1: at some point and the situation will change when autonomous

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Speaker 1: vehicles are out, we can come back and have this

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Speaker 1: discussion again. I think we will all be

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Speaker 1: alright. Thanks so much for coming in. Thanks to our

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00:20:10,439 --> 00:20:12,699
Speaker 1: guests and of course, the team behind this podcast as well.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to Janni Jahari Tiffany, Ang Joan Chan Sen

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00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:20,420
Speaker 1: and sound mixing by Ken Delbridge. Remember follow and subscribe.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we are on youtube as well. Otherwise it's

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Speaker 1: Chris and I saying bye for now catch you later.