1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:08,590 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast. You're listening to 2 00:00:08,590 --> 00:00:09,219 Speaker 1: a special four 3 00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:12,410 Speaker 2: part series of Heart of Matter. Looking at issues close 4 00:00:12,410 --> 00:00:12,500 Speaker 2: to 5 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:13,510 Speaker 1: the hearts of youths. 6 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:14,130 Speaker 2: I'm linda 7 00:00:15,390 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: a student at the National University of Singapore, majoring in philosophy, 8 00:00:19,010 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: politics and economics. Now in a Singapore where people are 9 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: becoming more environmentally conscious, it's popular to talk about protecting 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: the planet and fighting climate change. Young Singaporeans in particular 11 00:00:30,730 --> 00:00:33,849 Speaker 1: are making their voices heard. And youth led climate and 12 00:00:33,850 --> 00:00:37,710 Speaker 1: environmental groups have called on the government to quote, boldly 13 00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:40,300 Speaker 1: accelerate climate action unquote but 14 00:00:40,310 --> 00:00:44,570 Speaker 2: Unpopular opinions about fighting climate change exists in Singapore two. 15 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:46,750 Speaker 2: and moving the climate conversation forward 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,570 Speaker 2: requires us to confront these. How much can Singapore already 17 00:00:50,570 --> 00:00:50,820 Speaker 2: do 18 00:00:50,820 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: If we only contribute about 0.1 19 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: percent of global emissions 20 00:00:55,130 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: will a rapid transition to a low carbon economy and 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: danger jobs and hurt the poor And do Singaporeans really 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: know what it takes to shift to a low carbon 23 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: future now, of course, to get your 24 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: sense of how you're thinking about these issues, we did 25 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,149 Speaker 2: a quick and dirty pool of our instagram followers about 26 00:01:11,150 --> 00:01:15,470 Speaker 2: some of these unpopular opinions on climate change. The answers 27 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,490 Speaker 2: might not be what you 28 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:17,559 Speaker 1: expect. 29 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: So, 30 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,230 Speaker 2: joining us today in the studio is dr Winston chao 31 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,270 Speaker 2: associate professor of Science technology and society at Singapore Management University. 32 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,270 Speaker 1: Good morning. Good to meet both of you 33 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: and climate activist. No industry, no Hamid, whose co founder 34 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: of Singapore Youth for climate action. Hello everyone, Thank you 35 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:36,459 Speaker 2: for having me here 36 00:01:36,540 --> 00:01:39,209 Speaker 2: Winston and Latrina Welcome to Heart of the matter. Let's 37 00:01:39,209 --> 00:01:42,790 Speaker 2: start off with one of the poor findings, it also 38 00:01:42,790 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: comes up a lot when discussing Singapore's responsibility in tackling 39 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: climate change. 40 00:01:47,540 --> 00:01:53,180 Speaker 2: The question was Singapore contributes 0.1% of global emissions. Our 41 00:01:53,180 --> 00:01:56,660 Speaker 2: own efforts can mitigate climate change, yes or no 42 00:01:57,140 --> 00:02:00,710 Speaker 2: And the result was split right down the Middle 50% 43 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:02,190 Speaker 2: and 49%, respectively. 44 00:02:02,190 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: Thief. So last Trina, you know, as a climate activist, 45 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,250 Speaker 1: what are your first thoughts upon hearing such a result? 46 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:08,940 Speaker 1: Does it surprise you in any way? 47 00:02:08,950 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: I would say, I'm not surprised at the results. Looking 48 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 2: at it like a 49-51 kind of percentage, 49 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,570 Speaker 2: largely because for each one of us were coming in 50 00:02:19,570 --> 00:02:22,700 Speaker 2: from different backgrounds and expectations and knowledge about what's happening 51 00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 2: with the climate crisis and what's being done to mitigate 52 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: climate change. I'm not sure if you've heard of that analogy. Right? 53 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: So if we look at the world being a sinking boat, 54 00:02:32,330 --> 00:02:36,450 Speaker 2: taking mitigation measures as that step to plugging the hole 55 00:02:36,450 --> 00:02:39,540 Speaker 2: that causes your boat to sink. And now, if I 56 00:02:39,550 --> 00:02:42,260 Speaker 2: add a layer of narrative to that and imagine that 57 00:02:42,260 --> 00:02:45,989 Speaker 2: boat to be a cruise ship where thousands of holes. 58 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:46,660 Speaker 2: So 59 00:02:46,740 --> 00:02:50,220 Speaker 2: each of us readers or observers of this climate crisis 60 00:02:50,220 --> 00:02:54,110 Speaker 2: wouldn't actually know how many hundreds and thousands of holes 61 00:02:54,110 --> 00:02:56,710 Speaker 2: there are, we wouldn't know how to solve and plug 62 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,430 Speaker 2: in each of these holes or how to mitigate the 63 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:03,580 Speaker 2: climate crisis. We just have the truth or the perception 64 00:03:03,590 --> 00:03:05,460 Speaker 2: of what we see and what we know 65 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,940 Speaker 2: and therefore looking back at that instagram poll results or 66 00:03:08,940 --> 00:03:11,170 Speaker 2: just take it as it is. If that's how things 67 00:03:11,169 --> 00:03:11,459 Speaker 2: are 68 00:03:11,540 --> 00:03:14,010 Speaker 2: then moving forward. I think we can talk about how 69 00:03:14,010 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: then can we allow more people to know about what's 70 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,910 Speaker 2: happening and how to mitigate the climate crisis. Let's talk 71 00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:20,049 Speaker 2: more 72 00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:22,530 Speaker 1: about how we can mitigate that and will not forget 73 00:03:22,530 --> 00:03:24,970 Speaker 1: your opinion on that, you know, as a climate activist 74 00:03:24,970 --> 00:03:27,049 Speaker 1: and as part of Singapore Youth for climate action, 75 00:03:27,139 --> 00:03:30,109 Speaker 1: you know what our youths expecting Singapore to do to 76 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:32,630 Speaker 1: move the needle on climate action, exactly share with us 77 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: some of your 78 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:37,450 Speaker 2: especially 0.1% of emissions. I hear different voices in the 79 00:03:37,450 --> 00:03:41,210 Speaker 2: Singapore youth, environmental seen something that clearly stands out is 80 00:03:41,210 --> 00:03:43,660 Speaker 2: this demand for us to face out from the fossil 81 00:03:43,660 --> 00:03:47,290 Speaker 2: fuel industry, that's something that's a strong issue that a 82 00:03:47,290 --> 00:03:49,980 Speaker 2: lot of people are pushing for. And it's something that 83 00:03:49,990 --> 00:03:52,660 Speaker 2: in my ideal state of mind, I agree with as well, 84 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 2: but I'm also being realistic over here that 85 00:03:56,140 --> 00:04:00,250 Speaker 2: in Singapore's context, we are largely in a good position 86 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:04,710 Speaker 2: to be in that petrochemical industry, refining oil and such. 87 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: We are in a good position, I think regulations wise 88 00:04:08,650 --> 00:04:12,090 Speaker 2: to control how things are in the petrochemical industry. So 89 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: if not us, then who I think I'm looking at 90 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,660 Speaker 2: it from that perspective. 91 00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: Another perspective I'm looking at is also Singapore, even though 92 00:04:19,450 --> 00:04:23,610 Speaker 2: we're saying, we're contributing only 0.1 global emissions and whatnot. 93 00:04:23,620 --> 00:04:27,909 Speaker 2: And we're in this petrochemical industry, we are taking steps 94 00:04:27,910 --> 00:04:31,250 Speaker 2: to transit out or to make things better. And if 95 00:04:31,250 --> 00:04:34,610 Speaker 2: you've heard of the Singapore International Energy Week announcements back 96 00:04:34,610 --> 00:04:37,830 Speaker 2: in october a lot of things were being said, including 97 00:04:37,830 --> 00:04:41,450 Speaker 2: transforming Jurong into cleaner hub. 98 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,930 Speaker 2: And so I'm just looking at things from that macro 99 00:04:43,930 --> 00:04:46,940 Speaker 2: perspective and I do see a lot of announcements measuring 100 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: transformation measures and I take it as a positive step 101 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,330 Speaker 2: that there are things happening and maybe what I myself 102 00:04:54,330 --> 00:04:56,610 Speaker 2: should be doing is to be more aware of all 103 00:04:56,610 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: these changes and transitions that's happening. Put a pin in 104 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,630 Speaker 2: that let's go over to Winston, Winston. So what's your sense? 105 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:04,989 Speaker 2: Split down the middle? Is there a lack of consensus 106 00:05:04,990 --> 00:05:07,290 Speaker 2: here that we should be doing something in Singapore 107 00:05:07,300 --> 00:05:09,260 Speaker 1: my senses? I actually 108 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,070 Speaker 1: surprised by the split right down the middle. I thought 109 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:14,940 Speaker 1: it would weigh towards we are not doing enough because 110 00:05:14,940 --> 00:05:17,630 Speaker 1: it's that realism that last rena was talking about. And 111 00:05:17,630 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: by the way, I love that analogy of the cruise 112 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,020 Speaker 1: ship with the multiple holes but also the bathtub sink one, right? Yes, 113 00:05:23,029 --> 00:05:25,510 Speaker 1: it's a good extension. I'm going to steal that from 114 00:05:25,510 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: my classes next year. 115 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,010 Speaker 1: Las Rinas analogy is great because it tells us that 116 00:05:29,020 --> 00:05:32,529 Speaker 1: it's a common problem in terms of stopping climate change 117 00:05:32,529 --> 00:05:34,870 Speaker 1: by reducing our emissions. You have to really stop all 118 00:05:34,870 --> 00:05:37,670 Speaker 1: the holes off that boat as best as you can buy. 119 00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:40,370 Speaker 1: That example that was put in the instagram poll that 120 00:05:40,370 --> 00:05:44,470 Speaker 1: we contribute 0.11% of global emissions. Currently 50 million tons 121 00:05:44,470 --> 00:05:47,660 Speaker 1: of C. 02 equivalent gasses into the atmosphere. We only 122 00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: have a small hole to plug. But then if we 123 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,580 Speaker 1: look around us, there are many other holes that other 124 00:05:51,580 --> 00:05:52,950 Speaker 1: countries might not be 125 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,860 Speaker 1: as active as we are. Like what we're doing with 126 00:05:55,980 --> 00:05:58,650 Speaker 1: Trina's good examples about joe island being put into effect. 127 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,740 Speaker 1: We're all going to be in trouble regardless. One other 128 00:06:01,740 --> 00:06:04,070 Speaker 1: thing I want to point out about that 10.0.11 percent 129 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,180 Speaker 1: is only for territorial emissions, things that happened within Singapore. 130 00:06:08,190 --> 00:06:11,780 Speaker 1: We can also do much, much more going beyond the 131 00:06:11,779 --> 00:06:14,570 Speaker 1: boundaries of Singapore. This is what both the government has 132 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:16,710 Speaker 1: looked into and what the private sector has looked into 133 00:06:16,710 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: as well. So it sounds like once again we have 134 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,380 Speaker 1: to punch above our weight. It's not just punching above 135 00:06:21,380 --> 00:06:24,350 Speaker 1: our weight in a performative sense. It's not like, you know, 136 00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: we're just doing this because you want to view ourselves 137 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,630 Speaker 1: as middle weights fighting a heavyweight fight. The fact is 138 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,150 Speaker 1: we have a responsibility beyond just Singapore. If we finance 139 00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: thermal coal fired plants in Indonesia or in the region, 140 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,010 Speaker 1: if our banks do that. Our 141 00:06:39,010 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: banks are committing not to. 142 00:06:40,210 --> 00:06:43,740 Speaker 1: That's the point. The commitment is that for new plants 143 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:46,550 Speaker 1: we realize that we have a bigger role to play 144 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:50,430 Speaker 1: rather than just consuming energy. We're trying to stop or 145 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:52,900 Speaker 1: to divest or to make sure that the fossil fuels 146 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:56,060 Speaker 1: that cause climate change remain in the ground remained unburned. 147 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,550 Speaker 1: To me, that is a big step forward. That our 148 00:06:59,550 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: financial institutions and also what Tomasic is doing as well 149 00:07:02,930 --> 00:07:06,020 Speaker 1: to make sure that our actions go beyond just what 150 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:07,090 Speaker 1: happens in Singapore, 151 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,350 Speaker 2: is that too much pressure that we're placing on ourselves 152 00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 2: when we are saying that we need to do all 153 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: these things, phase out fossil fuel. Look at climate financing. 154 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: I imagine you're also thinking about shipping and aviation. 155 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:23,900 Speaker 1: These actions make financial sense. I would say the divestment 156 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:26,450 Speaker 1: makes sense because we know that these sort of high 157 00:07:26,450 --> 00:07:30,150 Speaker 1: polluting fossil fuel industries, they are sunset industry, it will 158 00:07:30,150 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: become too expensive. There's no return on investment smart 159 00:07:34,340 --> 00:07:37,860 Speaker 1: companies, They realize that if the future doesn't give us 160 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:41,290 Speaker 1: any viable returns, no matter what we do with current 161 00:07:41,290 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: infrastructure and with the changing tides of consumer behavior, people 162 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,150 Speaker 1: are now realizing, hey, this climate change is going to 163 00:07:49,150 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: be a big problem. What can I do about it? 164 00:07:51,340 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: Let's go and switch to a good alternative. That's where 165 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:59,100 Speaker 1: your green industries, your electric vehicles, your efficient lighting, your 166 00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: renewable energy from solar, which, you know, as a last 167 00:08:03,230 --> 00:08:06,140 Speaker 1: point about the S. E. W. We're looking into a 168 00:08:06,140 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: regional grid or looking into importing solar elsewhere rather than 169 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: burning natural gas. That is, again, a big step forward. 170 00:08:12,090 --> 00:08:14,910 Speaker 1: So let's talk more about this switching thing. Yeah. Another 171 00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:18,090 Speaker 1: poll question that we did. So this statement was Singaporeans 172 00:08:18,090 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: do not know what transitioning to a low carbon economy 173 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:26,230 Speaker 1: really entails. We have overwhelming consensus for this, We have 87% 174 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,540 Speaker 1: who said yes. In response to this statement. Now, Winston, 175 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,350 Speaker 1: Singaporeans are amongst the most well educated in the world. 176 00:08:32,540 --> 00:08:35,980 Speaker 1: What explains our this lack of knowledge over what this 177 00:08:35,980 --> 00:08:39,209 Speaker 1: transition to a low carbon economy really entails. Can 178 00:08:39,210 --> 00:08:41,330 Speaker 2: I just add to that? So when you ask singaporeans, 179 00:08:41,330 --> 00:08:43,310 Speaker 2: what we need to do to get the answers are 180 00:08:43,309 --> 00:08:44,059 Speaker 2: usually 181 00:08:44,140 --> 00:08:48,579 Speaker 2: use fewer plastic bags or move to solar plastic straws, 182 00:08:48,590 --> 00:08:49,090 Speaker 2: plastic 183 00:08:49,090 --> 00:08:50,410 Speaker 1: straws. Oh my goodness, let's 184 00:08:50,410 --> 00:08:51,650 Speaker 2: not get started on that. 185 00:08:51,660 --> 00:08:52,540 Speaker 1: So why 186 00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:53,949 Speaker 2: this disconnection, 187 00:08:54,540 --> 00:08:58,359 Speaker 1: the disconnection and I think guilty as charged in the past, 188 00:08:58,370 --> 00:09:00,820 Speaker 1: my thinking is that people have to take the first 189 00:09:00,820 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: step in order to have meaningful action. 190 00:09:03,340 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: A simple first step would be plastic straws would be 191 00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:09,790 Speaker 1: less plastic bags. You you get acquainted with the fact 192 00:09:09,790 --> 00:09:13,340 Speaker 1: that your actions can affect the environment much much more 193 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: needs to be pointed out that these are rather superficial. 194 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,970 Speaker 1: These are rather performative and it doesn't quantitatively lead to 195 00:09:20,970 --> 00:09:24,150 Speaker 1: a decrease in carbon emissions as much as is required 196 00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: for that transition. 197 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,330 Speaker 1: Further actions involved greater changes in individual behavior up to 198 00:09:29,330 --> 00:09:32,469 Speaker 1: a certain point, but it's also known that an individual 199 00:09:32,470 --> 00:09:36,660 Speaker 1: can only do so much to effect a good climate transition. 200 00:09:36,670 --> 00:09:38,610 Speaker 1: There has to be structural changes, there has to be 201 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:41,610 Speaker 1: policy changes, there has to be changes in the finance world, 202 00:09:41,610 --> 00:09:45,430 Speaker 1: and that is taking place as well. People only see what, 203 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,540 Speaker 1: you know, they see in their immediate surroundings and teaching 204 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:51,810 Speaker 1: or educating or telling them look much much more needs 205 00:09:51,809 --> 00:09:54,370 Speaker 1: to be done. Otherwise you resort to that blah, blah 206 00:09:54,370 --> 00:09:57,650 Speaker 1: blah as Greta thunberg who has very, very aptly pointed out, 207 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,940 Speaker 1: otherwise you are not really doing that transition that is required. So, 208 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:04,870 Speaker 2: I just want to read another poll question out to 209 00:10:04,870 --> 00:10:07,890 Speaker 2: the strainer and when we asked, what's one thing that 210 00:10:07,890 --> 00:10:11,730 Speaker 2: Singapore can do better to combat climate change? And the 211 00:10:11,730 --> 00:10:15,850 Speaker 2: answers were quite telling. The most frequent responses were like 212 00:10:15,850 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: I mentioned, reduce plastic usage, improve recycling and waste management, 213 00:10:20,540 --> 00:10:26,150 Speaker 2: encourage electric vehicles and take public transport by less things. 214 00:10:26,540 --> 00:10:29,709 Speaker 2: Do you think that some people might be mistaking climate 215 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:35,540 Speaker 2: action for advocacy for minimalist lifestyle or even minimizing waste 216 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:39,010 Speaker 2: To me, climate action is a very broad topic and 217 00:10:39,010 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: theres so many things we can do. 218 00:10:40,540 --> 00:10:42,850 Speaker 2: And I think, like, the things that you mentioned earlier, 219 00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: I think to me those are individual actions that people 220 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,180 Speaker 2: can take regardless of their interest and knowledge about climate change. 221 00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:52,530 Speaker 2: Going back to what DR Winston Churchill mentioned earlier, there 222 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:54,860 Speaker 2: are other things that we can consider doing as well 223 00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:57,620 Speaker 2: from the individual perspective, right profit. Just trying to like, 224 00:10:57,630 --> 00:11:00,630 Speaker 2: also take another perspective to what you mentioned earlier. I 225 00:11:00,630 --> 00:11:04,150 Speaker 2: think individuals can do much more. They have to look 226 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,150 Speaker 2: at the circle of influence in their circle of authority. 227 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,300 Speaker 2: And I think the narratives that we're seeing now in 228 00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:13,460 Speaker 2: the media largely is just switch to reusable straws, bring 229 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 2: your own bags and such. I think more narratives need 230 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 2: to be emphasized on things like, okay, if you're in 231 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,020 Speaker 2: an organization, you have that capacity to go talk to 232 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:25,370 Speaker 2: senior members or even in your own colleagues circle from 233 00:11:25,370 --> 00:11:27,420 Speaker 2: your own Green Committee, for example, I think these things 234 00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: are things that can be 235 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,300 Speaker 2: mentioned or talked about a bit more at the company level, 236 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:32,450 Speaker 2: organizational level. 237 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,140 Speaker 2: Things like if you're a resident in Jurong East, for example, 238 00:11:36,140 --> 00:11:39,780 Speaker 2: you can approach your own town council or maybe in 239 00:11:39,780 --> 00:11:43,100 Speaker 2: your own RC. Go and do something with your neighborhoods 240 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:46,590 Speaker 2: to influence more people. These are things that we also 241 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:49,430 Speaker 2: need to consider highlighting a bit more. So that circle 242 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,459 Speaker 2: of influence, even though it started off from one individual, 243 00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: it goes out to a wider community, but just to 244 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,410 Speaker 2: play Devil's advocate, right? Because I'm clearly the skeptic here, 245 00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:01,780 Speaker 2: some people say that these ground up actions are feel 246 00:12:01,780 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: good and great because they're getting more people involved in 247 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,830 Speaker 2: the nasty thing about climate action. But the reality is 248 00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: that we have an existential crisis. Climate change cannot wait 249 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:15,660 Speaker 2: for ground up activities to take time, which 250 00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: it takes effort to stew as well, what's your response 251 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:18,860 Speaker 2: to that? 252 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:22,910 Speaker 2: We should consider doing whatever we can. And even though 253 00:12:22,910 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 2: some things may feel, you know, it's a feel good 254 00:12:25,690 --> 00:12:28,260 Speaker 2: kind of situation. I think at the end of the day, 255 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:30,990 Speaker 2: we shouldn't put it on that individual to do more 256 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,350 Speaker 2: than what they can. I think certain things are meant 257 00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:37,450 Speaker 2: to be taken up by government agencies, by private companies 258 00:12:37,540 --> 00:12:40,250 Speaker 2: and if individuals see that, you know, they can only 259 00:12:40,250 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 2: do certain things, I'm okay with it. If they think 260 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:44,490 Speaker 2: they can do more than, you know, go ahead, we 261 00:12:44,490 --> 00:12:46,940 Speaker 2: should encourage that. What we don't want to do is 262 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:49,860 Speaker 2: to put a stop to all these positive actions that 263 00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: people are taking and what we should be doing is 264 00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:54,980 Speaker 2: encouraging them to do more. If for now if whatever 265 00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:56,980 Speaker 2: they are doing is just a feel good kind of thing. 266 00:12:56,990 --> 00:12:59,260 Speaker 2: That's totally fine. I see you nodding 267 00:12:59,340 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: jump in at this point. Let's Trina's touched upon something 268 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,449 Speaker 1: which I've been seeing 269 00:13:03,540 --> 00:13:07,060 Speaker 1: very recently. This this you mentioned the urgency from the 270 00:13:07,070 --> 00:13:09,809 Speaker 1: ground up previously. I would think everything is top down, 271 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:14,220 Speaker 1: this is Singapore, Everything is top down right? Just kidding. 272 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:15,260 Speaker 1: The 273 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,849 Speaker 1: initiatives from the ground up that, you know, palestrina and S. Y. C. 274 00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:22,050 Speaker 1: And other activists have been doing. I think it's paying 275 00:13:22,050 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: food because this individual agency is now leverage together with 276 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,670 Speaker 1: the private sector and with what the government has done 277 00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: with the S. G. ICO fund. Like earlier this year 278 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: there was that initiative to 279 00:13:34,140 --> 00:13:37,390 Speaker 1: have members of the public or members working in companies 280 00:13:37,390 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: submit their ideas that if they scientifically sound their science based, 281 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,650 Speaker 1: they do make a tangible difference in terms of climate 282 00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:47,550 Speaker 1: action and sustainability, there's money that's involved in it. 283 00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:51,350 Speaker 1: Full disclosure. I sit in the Scientific Assessment committee, I've 284 00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:54,350 Speaker 1: seen the amount of projects that have come through. They 285 00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:57,580 Speaker 1: are all very well taught. True. Give me an example. 286 00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:59,390 Speaker 1: I can't give specific examples. 287 00:13:59,450 --> 00:14:00,390 Speaker 2: Yes, 288 00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:03,449 Speaker 1: because the announcement will be made. Okay, but 289 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:05,450 Speaker 2: are you confident that they will move the needle when 290 00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:07,949 Speaker 2: it comes to climate action, reduce carbon emissions, 291 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,270 Speaker 1: They will 292 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,110 Speaker 1: move the needle in terms of engagement, they will hopefully 293 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: move the needle in terms of reducing emissions somewhat. But 294 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,110 Speaker 1: the problem, as Latrina pointed out, is that much larger 295 00:14:20,110 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: structural issues from the government, from industry have to be 296 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,150 Speaker 1: done to reduce emissions. That sort of reduction at the 297 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,060 Speaker 1: macro level 298 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: requires the demand requires the push from the ground up 299 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:33,450 Speaker 1: and that is what I'm seeing 300 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,150 Speaker 1: happening very rapidly. The flipside of individual action is individual 301 00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:40,330 Speaker 1: sacrifice to shift to a low carbon economy. We must 302 00:14:40,330 --> 00:14:42,860 Speaker 1: start to give up some things that we are comfortable with. 303 00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:44,770 Speaker 1: So perhaps Winston, you can take us through some of 304 00:14:44,770 --> 00:14:47,460 Speaker 1: the transitions that, you know, fill in the gaps of 305 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:49,380 Speaker 1: some of our listeners. What are some of the transitions 306 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:51,830 Speaker 1: we have to make in our lifestyles as we shift 307 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:55,190 Speaker 1: to this low carbon economy, some of them are probably enforced. 308 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: I would travel by air quite frequently despite buying offsets 309 00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:03,410 Speaker 1: to scope three emissions and all. It's still not as 310 00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:05,900 Speaker 1: ideal as not traveling in the first place. So the 311 00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:09,170 Speaker 1: enforced stay at home notices and work from home and 312 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:13,170 Speaker 1: international conferences or meetings, which now take place by zoom 313 00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:16,100 Speaker 1: and by other sort of remote platforms. Even with the 314 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:18,850 Speaker 1: increased electricity use from data service and all, 315 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,140 Speaker 1: it still represents a massive savings in emissions from not traveling. 316 00:15:23,150 --> 00:15:26,690 Speaker 1: The push from businesses as well. Hey, we can actually 317 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:30,420 Speaker 1: conduct good business remotely rather than face to face except 318 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:34,330 Speaker 1: for the most essential things is a big reduction in 319 00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: the structural reduction, which again is not 320 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: from your own individual decision, but it's from the pandemic. 321 00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:41,580 Speaker 1: So that's one of the things that I think is 322 00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: a good way of changing behavior. Another thing is 323 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,020 Speaker 1: By the usual financial similares like making sure that if 324 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: you want to switch to electric vehicles away from your 325 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,410 Speaker 1: diesel and petrol cars by 2040, you need to have 326 00:15:54,410 --> 00:15:57,290 Speaker 1: a tax structure in place to reward people for making 327 00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:59,770 Speaker 1: that switch. We are in a culture that you know, 328 00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: still places a high premium on economic decisions 329 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,510 Speaker 1: If it is seen to be viable and it saves 330 00:16:05,510 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: money to move over to an electric vehicle. I would 331 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,310 Speaker 1: bet a lot of Singaporeans will start making that switch 332 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: even well before that 2040 timeline that the government has 333 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:15,950 Speaker 1: put into place. I 334 00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:17,660 Speaker 2: Just want to get Australia to jump in here also. 335 00:16:17,660 --> 00:16:20,830 Speaker 2: But just a few comments to what you mentioned, 2020 336 00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:23,410 Speaker 2: was a year when travel came to what we would 337 00:16:23,410 --> 00:16:25,890 Speaker 2: call a standstill, even though there's a lot of travel 338 00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:26,660 Speaker 2: elsewhere in the world. 339 00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:28,610 Speaker 2: By and large, the whole moralist 340 00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: shutdown feature has returned. But 341 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,050 Speaker 2: then how much emissions do we manage to cut 342 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:37,550 Speaker 1: quite a lot globally from the lack of international travel, 343 00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:40,359 Speaker 1: from maritime and from shipping. The latest science has pointed 344 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,660 Speaker 1: out is anywhere from 4 to 7% reductions worldwide, 345 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:45,780 Speaker 2: But that's the thing, the whole ball shut down and 346 00:16:45,780 --> 00:16:47,300 Speaker 2: it's only 4-7%,, 347 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:51,050 Speaker 1: then it leads to my point that larger structural changes 348 00:16:51,060 --> 00:16:53,910 Speaker 1: in terms of the energy transition in terms of moving 349 00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: to electrifying the grid in terms of moving to renewable 350 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,930 Speaker 1: energy sources. That is where the prime action has to 351 00:17:00,930 --> 00:17:05,670 Speaker 1: take place. 352 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,409 Speaker 2: Looking at the whole scale of the problem and the 353 00:17:09,410 --> 00:17:11,660 Speaker 2: need to tackle climate change this Trina. 354 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,899 Speaker 2: Is it awkward when Singapore is trying to restart aviation restart? 355 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: Air travel have vaccinated travel lanes and here you are 356 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,740 Speaker 2: looking at this clock 26 just ended and the whole 357 00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 2: world is committed to reducing carbon emissions. Does it sit 358 00:17:24,770 --> 00:17:27,450 Speaker 2: oddly with you? I don't think it's odd the daily 359 00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 2: routines should continue. I think these are things that 360 00:17:31,140 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: globally, anyone aside from Singapore should also restart. But I 361 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,500 Speaker 2: think if we're looking at, how do we then restart 362 00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: and how do we do things better moving forward now 363 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,700 Speaker 2: that people have not been traveling much in the past 364 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,460 Speaker 2: two years and now we're thinking back about traveling right? 365 00:17:46,540 --> 00:17:48,730 Speaker 2: I think now maybe it's also a good point to 366 00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:51,810 Speaker 2: have that reflection and ask ourselves individually, do we need 367 00:17:51,810 --> 00:17:52,169 Speaker 2: that 368 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,100 Speaker 2: luxury travel as often as we had in the past? 369 00:17:56,109 --> 00:17:58,859 Speaker 2: I think these are questions that we can start reflecting on, 370 00:17:58,869 --> 00:18:02,540 Speaker 2: but the reality might be that people don't not travel, 371 00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:05,370 Speaker 2: but the question is do they buy offsets because then 372 00:18:05,369 --> 00:18:08,109 Speaker 2: it's more sustainable? Are they ready to buy offsets? 373 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: The informed ones will buy offsets, but 374 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: when air travels 375 00:18:12,530 --> 00:18:15,850 Speaker 1: prices travel is spicier, they might, they might realize that 376 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:18,710 Speaker 1: the actual externalities, the costs that are not included from 377 00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:20,850 Speaker 1: carbon emissions, they have to be accounted for. 378 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,450 Speaker 1: You could ask your firm to pay for that. Most 379 00:18:24,450 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: companies have sustainability plans, they might want to factor in 380 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:31,670 Speaker 1: these sort of offsets in future travel, assuming that we 381 00:18:31,670 --> 00:18:35,030 Speaker 1: can go for future travel. Could I interject at this point, 382 00:18:35,030 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: since this is a free flowing conversation 383 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: in the 384 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,970 Speaker 1: instagram questions, did you ask the respondents or the followers 385 00:18:41,970 --> 00:18:44,340 Speaker 1: whether or not they would want to have an additional 386 00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:46,129 Speaker 1: child or whether they are planning to have 387 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:46,860 Speaker 2: Children. 388 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:48,570 Speaker 2: Sure, we can say something about 389 00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:50,660 Speaker 1: it, that's interesting. You brought that? Well, we didn't ask 390 00:18:50,660 --> 00:18:52,900 Speaker 1: that question and no one said they will give up 391 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,609 Speaker 1: having Children in a separate poll question that we asked. 392 00:18:55,619 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: I personally wrote a commentary about this recently, I feel 393 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: that more and more young people had climate change is 394 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,260 Speaker 1: a concern for them. When you think about having Children 395 00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:05,850 Speaker 1: and bringing a child into this world, what kind of 396 00:19:05,850 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: world are we bringing them into 397 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,340 Speaker 1: for both of you? Is that a concern or you know, 398 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:12,100 Speaker 1: either to have Children or to have more Children? That 399 00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:15,300 Speaker 1: concern for both of you? How much of this is 400 00:19:15,310 --> 00:19:15,770 Speaker 1: very 401 00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 2: Different profiles exactly can share. 1st, 402 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:24,169 Speaker 1: throwing, throwing the narrowing the first. Thanks Latrina. 403 00:19:24,540 --> 00:19:29,180 Speaker 1: Um it's a question that really has a lot of baggage, 404 00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:34,270 Speaker 1: I would say purely from a resource or an environmental perspective, 405 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:37,540 Speaker 1: raising a kid is very energy intensive, all the stuff 406 00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:39,390 Speaker 1: that you need to purchase or to help to raise 407 00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: that kid. 408 00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:45,330 Speaker 1: Ah it would have a significant environmental footprint. Also does 409 00:19:45,330 --> 00:19:48,540 Speaker 1: that concern that there was a recent study done in 410 00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:51,710 Speaker 1: us that pointed out the climate anxiety, you do not 411 00:19:51,710 --> 00:19:54,020 Speaker 1: want to bring a kid into the world. Great piece 412 00:19:54,020 --> 00:19:57,050 Speaker 1: you should read it. And that ties in with that 413 00:19:57,060 --> 00:20:00,150 Speaker 1: economic factor of paying too much in terms of both 414 00:20:00,150 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: money and in terms of your pollution, the carbon footprint 415 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,350 Speaker 1: that arises from bringing another child into the world. 416 00:20:06,740 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: The caveat is that this seems to be a first 417 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,010 Speaker 1: world problem for want of a better word and it's 418 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:15,110 Speaker 1: rife with a lot of colonial criticisms like, are you 419 00:20:15,109 --> 00:20:20,150 Speaker 1: restricting the birth rate when the global self for demographic reasons, 420 00:20:20,150 --> 00:20:22,730 Speaker 1: they like to have more kids for variety of reasons. 421 00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:24,950 Speaker 1: And it seems to be like the usual 422 00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: Global north telling the global south you have to not 423 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: have more Children because of the effects that we've done 424 00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: over the past 50, 60, 70 years. So, as I said, 425 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,050 Speaker 1: a lot of baggage behind that, 426 00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:39,940 Speaker 1: and we have to contextualize that to maybe a high income, 427 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: high developed society like Singapore were already we've got a 428 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,030 Speaker 1: very low birth weight Children, people don't want to have Children. 429 00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: So that's the context to consider as well. 430 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,370 Speaker 1: But it's fascinating to see the sort of nationals. And 431 00:20:52,369 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: and so I have two kids. I'm not gonna have 432 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,209 Speaker 1: any more. Thank you very much. I've replaced myself. So 433 00:20:58,210 --> 00:21:01,500 Speaker 1: that's good. But I'm seeing that a lot of people 434 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,290 Speaker 1: of a younger generation have put serious thought into this. 435 00:21:04,290 --> 00:21:06,060 Speaker 1: And the climate factor, 436 00:21:06,140 --> 00:21:09,270 Speaker 1: the other climate emergency is one of the factors that 437 00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:11,450 Speaker 1: was becoming more prominent in the decision not to have 438 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:12,170 Speaker 1: more kids. 439 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,500 Speaker 2: Is that a thing in this Trina because we also 440 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:17,449 Speaker 2: did a poll question about that. And we asked, um, 441 00:21:17,450 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: what is the one thing you would give up in 442 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,350 Speaker 2: the fight against climate change, but nobody said not have Children. 443 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,060 Speaker 2: So thanks Winston for sharing that perspective. 444 00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: So, I have a totally different context altogether for me, 445 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,530 Speaker 2: I think if you ask me during my secondary school 446 00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:37,620 Speaker 2: up to university age where I was very interested and 447 00:21:37,619 --> 00:21:39,820 Speaker 2: involved in soccer, I would say let's have as many 448 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: kids as I can 449 00:21:40,940 --> 00:21:43,630 Speaker 2: enough to form a soccer team. But as I got 450 00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:45,860 Speaker 2: to know more about climate change. Um and in my 451 00:21:45,859 --> 00:21:48,310 Speaker 2: older years I've made that conscious decision not to have 452 00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:52,340 Speaker 2: Children in my personal context as well. My sister, she's married, 453 00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:55,010 Speaker 2: she has two kids, three old nephew, seven year old niece, 454 00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:58,310 Speaker 2: I spend my weekends with them, so I'm happy being 455 00:21:58,310 --> 00:22:01,770 Speaker 2: just that. And I think for me it's two separate issues, right, 456 00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:03,460 Speaker 2: so one is wanting to have 457 00:22:03,540 --> 00:22:06,670 Speaker 2: a kid so that I may be satisfy my motherly 458 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,190 Speaker 2: instinct and I feel that that is being mad by 459 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: spending time with my nephew niece separately. For me? I 460 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,500 Speaker 2: don't want to bring Children or another young person into 461 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:19,050 Speaker 2: this world with the kind of climate crisis we're facing now, 462 00:22:19,140 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 2: we can talk about this in a separate conversation, but 463 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 2: I do not agree with, you know, how certain things are, 464 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: for example, housing affordability, 465 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,250 Speaker 2: for example, mental stress in Singapore, and I think these 466 00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:31,050 Speaker 2: are issues that maybe I'm thinking too much, but these 467 00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:32,970 Speaker 2: are things that I do not want to put another 468 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:36,420 Speaker 2: person into. So less related to climate change? Well, I 469 00:22:36,420 --> 00:22:39,439 Speaker 2: say there's multi factors, but climate change is one of 470 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,220 Speaker 2: them definitely 471 00:22:40,230 --> 00:22:42,750 Speaker 1: do you think that something could change your mind in future. 472 00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:45,050 Speaker 1: Is this something that's pretty much set in stone for now? 473 00:22:45,340 --> 00:22:47,699 Speaker 2: I think it's really much set in stone for now 474 00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,450 Speaker 2: and then someone comes along and 475 00:22:49,740 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: convinces me otherwise. But yeah, I don't think it will 476 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,310 Speaker 2: change anytime soon. There's another podcast for another time I guess. 477 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,750 Speaker 2: Then tell us what activists like yourself when the Singapore 478 00:22:59,750 --> 00:23:02,379 Speaker 2: government to do and the kinds of climate targets you 479 00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,110 Speaker 2: want to see for Singapore such that that factor is 480 00:23:05,109 --> 00:23:06,450 Speaker 2: no longer a factor for you. 481 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: I think something that maybe I can recollect from the 482 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: youth collective statement that a group of individuals and organizations 483 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,449 Speaker 2: released 484 00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:16,669 Speaker 2: in november, we covered six key areas, but one of 485 00:23:16,670 --> 00:23:19,190 Speaker 2: it was on reducing carbon emissions and I think one 486 00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:21,220 Speaker 2: of the items that was listed in, there was something 487 00:23:21,220 --> 00:23:25,380 Speaker 2: that dr Vincent child had mentioned about Singapore needing to 488 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:28,450 Speaker 2: consider carbon emissions that we produced overseas 489 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: and I think that's something that maybe Singapore might want 490 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,949 Speaker 2: to look into further down the road 491 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:36,890 Speaker 2: to not only consider emissions that we have here, but 492 00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:40,580 Speaker 2: also ones that we are producing elsewhere. With that call 493 00:23:40,580 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: during the Singapore International Energy Week, I think there were 494 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,179 Speaker 2: calls for proposals to import low carbon electricity into Singapore. 495 00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:49,890 Speaker 2: I myself have not looked into how these contracts are 496 00:23:49,890 --> 00:23:52,699 Speaker 2: listed and worded and whatnot, I would be interested to 497 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:53,550 Speaker 2: see like, okay, 498 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,179 Speaker 2: we have such contracts being called out, how are we 499 00:23:56,180 --> 00:23:58,460 Speaker 2: monitoring the carbon emission levels 500 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:01,629 Speaker 2: that are produced at site overseas? I think these are 501 00:24:01,630 --> 00:24:04,780 Speaker 2: things that we need to consider looking elsewhere, not just 502 00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:07,550 Speaker 2: for those things that we've highlighted, but also for other 503 00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:09,710 Speaker 2: contracts that we put out in the future. The other 504 00:24:09,710 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 2: thing that maybe Singapore might want to look into that 505 00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: would potentially make me change my mind is the housing 506 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,850 Speaker 2: situation we have now, 507 00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:23,030 Speaker 2: and I'm not just talking about Singapore residents right in general, 508 00:24:23,030 --> 00:24:25,690 Speaker 2: the policies that we have in Singapore, obviously these are 509 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: dedicated and addressed to the Singapore citizens, but as it is, 510 00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: I think when you're looking at the Singapore resident population, 511 00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: a large proportion is also migrant workers, domestic helpers and whatnot. 512 00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:38,950 Speaker 2: And for the migrant workers in the construction industries, 513 00:24:39,140 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: they are living in different types of housings. 514 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,950 Speaker 2: For me right now, I don't really see initiatives being 515 00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:48,750 Speaker 2: put into place to help them, for example, face higher 516 00:24:48,750 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 2: temperatures with climate crisis, that's higher temperatures. How can people 517 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,469 Speaker 2: live better in a more comfortable environment. I think the 518 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,170 Speaker 2: initiative adaptation, not mitigation adaptation measures. So the 519 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 2: adaptation measures that we have now, I think in 2019 520 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,490 Speaker 2: we introduced the climate friendly household packages targeted to one rooms, 521 00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: 23 room flats, but again, that's largely for people living 522 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,330 Speaker 2: in flats. What about people living in other types of 523 00:25:13,330 --> 00:25:16,290 Speaker 2: housings who may not be Singaporeans that how do we 524 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:18,490 Speaker 2: then address and help those people as well 525 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: in this conversation was signed to shift into larger scale 526 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,850 Speaker 1: structural changes that we might need to see 527 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,070 Speaker 1: Sometimes when people may bring up things like quote unquote 528 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,550 Speaker 1: economic realities, economic constraints about how far we can go. 529 00:25:31,550 --> 00:25:33,619 Speaker 1: I'm sure as an activist, you have heard so much 530 00:25:33,619 --> 00:25:36,380 Speaker 1: of this for so long, right. And we did ask 531 00:25:36,390 --> 00:25:39,350 Speaker 1: another poll question. The statement was whether or not a 532 00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:43,750 Speaker 1: rapid transition to a low-carbon future can endanger the economy 533 00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:46,210 Speaker 1: and jobs now this was quite split down the middle 534 00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: to 49.1% said Yes 535 00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:52,670 Speaker 1: 50.9% said No, Let's really quick. your reaction to that? 536 00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:55,780 Speaker 2: Two separate thoughts? I myself don't know what transitioning to 537 00:25:55,780 --> 00:25:58,190 Speaker 2: a low carbon economy looks like. I think for now 538 00:25:58,190 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 2: I just hear lots and lots of announcements like Singapore 539 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,510 Speaker 2: is aiming for the Singapore is aiming for that. But 540 00:26:02,510 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 2: what are the indicators of progress? We don't have that 541 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,369 Speaker 2: clearly established and listed out for us? That's one the 542 00:26:08,369 --> 00:26:11,270 Speaker 2: other part is in terms of Singapore not knowing what 543 00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:15,060 Speaker 2: transitioning looks like. I don't think it's necessarily our fault 544 00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:17,150 Speaker 2: and us not knowing. I think these are things that's 545 00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:20,350 Speaker 2: not communicated to us clearly and therefore we don't know, 546 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: I myself do not know and I would understand if 547 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:26,140 Speaker 2: you have that split in your instagram response so Winston 548 00:26:26,140 --> 00:26:29,889 Speaker 1: For the 49.1%, who did say Yes, are their fears 549 00:26:29,890 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: about the economy and jobs, you know, somewhat justified because 550 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,540 Speaker 1: you have written about this before as well. I would 551 00:26:34,540 --> 00:26:37,170 Speaker 1: say that the question was poorly phrased, sorry, 552 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:43,060 Speaker 1: you should have written the poorly managed if the transition 553 00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:45,990 Speaker 1: is poorly managed. I think that little qualifier will make 554 00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: a big difference in my view of what a sustainable 555 00:26:49,690 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: transition is for a low carbon future goes to the 556 00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:56,940 Speaker 1: key point of can we reach net zero for emissions? 557 00:26:56,950 --> 00:26:59,379 Speaker 1: That's the primary target. The second would be in terms 558 00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:01,770 Speaker 1: of like what's being said for adaptation, 559 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: trying to make sure that the most vulnerable of our 560 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,860 Speaker 1: society are protected from the excessive heat of flash floods, 561 00:27:08,859 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: of droughts of, you know, sea level rise etcetera etcetera. 562 00:27:12,340 --> 00:27:14,790 Speaker 1: Those two should go hand in hand in a proper 563 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: transition for the economy? I agree with Katrina. I don't 564 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,449 Speaker 1: think the KPI s and you know, we are in 565 00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:23,940 Speaker 1: a KPI society, those are not present there. It potentially 566 00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:27,290 Speaker 1: falls into a trap that, you know, a sustainable transition 567 00:27:27,290 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: or just transition is another motherhood statement that everybody hates. 568 00:27:31,090 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: So you want 569 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,300 Speaker 2: to see a target for a net zero emissions goal? Yes, 570 00:27:35,310 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: that's that's what's a reasonable year. 571 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,820 Speaker 1: What's a reasonable year personally, is well, before what the 572 00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:45,739 Speaker 1: government has said like as soon as possible. After 2050? 573 00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:47,220 Speaker 2: Yes. So what's a reasonable year for 574 00:27:47,220 --> 00:27:49,230 Speaker 1: you reasonable year? Why not? Without 575 00:27:49,230 --> 00:27:50,460 Speaker 2: endangering jobs? Why 576 00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: not? 2050 577 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:52,690 Speaker 2: 25 20 578 00:27:52,690 --> 00:27:55,270 Speaker 1: 50, the available ingredients 579 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: to enable a transition from the economic side for your technologies, 580 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: they already there, 581 00:28:00,090 --> 00:28:00,810 Speaker 2: Which is, 582 00:28:00,820 --> 00:28:03,540 Speaker 1: there is a point of whether we can apply CC 583 00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:06,460 Speaker 1: US carbon capture, utilization and storage. 584 00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: We're already ramping up solar as best as we can. 585 00:28:09,250 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: There's a limit. But 586 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 2: even if you cover the entire Singapore. 587 00:28:12,130 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, it won't, it will make probably potentially realistically about 10%, 588 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,379 Speaker 1: maybe 15. Although some studies from series have said maybe 589 00:28:19,390 --> 00:28:20,950 Speaker 1: as high as 40% natural gas 590 00:28:20,950 --> 00:28:22,310 Speaker 2: is the best that we can do now. 591 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,780 Speaker 1: Natural gas is still the best we can do now. 592 00:28:24,790 --> 00:28:28,369 Speaker 1: But natural gas is a transition field towards a renewable 593 00:28:28,369 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: energy source. If not domestically obtained. That's where the imports 594 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,490 Speaker 1: from either the region from Laos or cambodia through the 595 00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: Asean regional grid or getting a direct solar pipeline in 596 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,250 Speaker 1: from either the Northern territories or from western Australia from 597 00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:44,770 Speaker 1: the solar farms that they have there 598 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,010 Speaker 1: that could be the way forward. Are 599 00:28:47,010 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 2: you ruling out nuclear? 600 00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:52,230 Speaker 1: I am not ruling out nuclear. That's my one controversial 601 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:53,370 Speaker 1: statement here that are 602 00:28:53,580 --> 00:28:54,790 Speaker 2: not ruling out nuclear 603 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,670 Speaker 1: nuclear has again, a lot of baggage but a single 604 00:28:58,670 --> 00:29:03,110 Speaker 1: nuclear plant could actually take care of Singapore's immediate power 605 00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: needs could be a floating plant. It could be placed 606 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,770 Speaker 1: somewhere close to the region 607 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: but just looking at it from that 608 00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:11,970 Speaker 1: energy perspective, it will solve a lot of 609 00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:12,660 Speaker 2: highly efficient. 610 00:29:12,670 --> 00:29:15,660 Speaker 1: Yes. The problem though is that it's rife with all 611 00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:18,270 Speaker 1: the other security issues is rife with a lot of 612 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: the pollution issues from nuclear waste that we can't answer 613 00:29:22,130 --> 00:29:24,890 Speaker 1: that a lot of countries that are currently using nuclear 614 00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: still can't answer as well. 615 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,310 Speaker 2: I'm not worried of the Fukushima incident happening. 616 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,260 Speaker 1: Black swan. That's one thing. These sort of events. They 617 00:29:32,270 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: are high impact, low probability 618 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: and whether your risk management or your risk assessment can 619 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,430 Speaker 1: account for that. That is up to the powers that 620 00:29:40,430 --> 00:29:44,780 Speaker 1: be to decide not ruling out nuclear is a valid option. 621 00:29:44,790 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: The advancements in these sort of technologies can make it 622 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,950 Speaker 1: to a point where that risk can be low enough 623 00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: for Singapore to accept that 624 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,300 Speaker 1: even accounting for the other various geopolitical and pollution risks 625 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier. 626 00:29:56,940 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: So anything else to add to the mix to reach 627 00:29:59,210 --> 00:30:00,860 Speaker 2: net zero by 2050. 628 00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:04,850 Speaker 1: The supply side that's all the power generation and also 629 00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:08,900 Speaker 1: the advancements in Petrochem for plastic productions and and everything 630 00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: else can they be more efficient? The demand side having 631 00:30:12,210 --> 00:30:15,660 Speaker 1: consumers realize that we need to go to renewable 632 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,170 Speaker 1: electric vehicles. That's one thing 633 00:30:18,340 --> 00:30:22,510 Speaker 1: veteran fitting your buildings with L. E. D. S rather 634 00:30:22,510 --> 00:30:27,270 Speaker 1: than higher consumption, higher consumption light sources striving towards standards 635 00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: set in terms of low energy, super low energy zero 636 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,670 Speaker 1: energy buildings. That there's another way 637 00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: looking at more sustainable construction methods for shorter buildings for 638 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,540 Speaker 1: instance using mass engineered timber like what is happening in 639 00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:40,860 Speaker 1: both and us and S. M. U. 640 00:30:40,940 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: In some parts of our campus, there are more on 641 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,650 Speaker 1: the individual side which we discussed and they can be affected. 642 00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:48,830 Speaker 1: But if you want to really push the needle on 643 00:30:48,830 --> 00:30:50,890 Speaker 1: the supply side, then you have to look into energy 644 00:30:50,890 --> 00:30:53,500 Speaker 1: generation and other sorts of things where both the government 645 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: and the private sector will have to deal with. Now 646 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,310 Speaker 1: these are these are of course sound like they are 647 00:30:57,310 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: very logical and rational measures. So from the government's perspective, 648 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,830 Speaker 1: what do you think is stopping them from setting that target? 649 00:31:02,830 --> 00:31:05,540 Speaker 1: I mean right now, it's as soon as viable in 650 00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:09,850 Speaker 1: the second half of the 21st century. What what are 651 00:31:09,850 --> 00:31:14,050 Speaker 1: your thoughts? The conservatism of the government which has served 652 00:31:14,060 --> 00:31:17,180 Speaker 1: very well in the past? They will see and frankly speaking, 653 00:31:17,180 --> 00:31:19,150 Speaker 1: I can see their point of view. They love to 654 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: under promise and over deliver. 655 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,210 Speaker 1: That's the ethos of a lot of their policies. It 656 00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:24,170 Speaker 1: has worked in the past. 657 00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:27,250 Speaker 1: They also realized that they are a small player in 658 00:31:27,250 --> 00:31:29,510 Speaker 1: the wider region and they don't want to stick their 659 00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:32,330 Speaker 1: head out too much if they don't see the people 660 00:31:32,330 --> 00:31:35,330 Speaker 1: in the private sector not sticking their collective heads out 661 00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:36,270 Speaker 1: too much as well. 662 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: Looking at what they've announced in the past, they like 663 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,430 Speaker 1: to air on the side of caution and air, on 664 00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:43,930 Speaker 1: the side of lee's drama. I can see that view, 665 00:31:43,930 --> 00:31:46,350 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily agree with it 100% 666 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,060 Speaker 1: But it's a justifiable approach on the part of the 667 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,580 Speaker 1: arena as soon as viable in the second half of 668 00:31:52,580 --> 00:31:54,750 Speaker 1: the 21st century, what's your reaction whenever you see that 669 00:31:54,750 --> 00:31:55,260 Speaker 1: phrase 670 00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:57,580 Speaker 2: And 2050, is that the goal that you have in 671 00:31:57,580 --> 00:32:00,510 Speaker 2: mind as well, if it can happen earlier, Why not? 672 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,100 Speaker 2: At the same time? I think for me, I would 673 00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: like to put this perspective that I think change is 674 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,450 Speaker 2: definitely take time 675 00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:07,890 Speaker 2: and in this context, I don't know if it's government 676 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 2: conservatism or maybe it's just a strategy for them to 677 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,670 Speaker 2: build up awareness first, because I'm looking at it from 678 00:32:13,670 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 2: the perspective that 2018 was the year of Climate Action. 679 00:32:16,210 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 2: For me, that's when they started to build up this, like, 680 00:32:19,090 --> 00:32:21,670 Speaker 2: large scale momentum of raising awareness for the public to 681 00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: know more about climate change, 682 00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:25,570 Speaker 2: And that was in 2018. And then slowly they introduced 683 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:28,090 Speaker 2: carbon tax and then now we're talking about increasing carbon 684 00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: tax and so on 685 00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:31,290 Speaker 2: In the ground up sector, for example, back when I 686 00:32:31,290 --> 00:32:33,950 Speaker 2: started Singapore youth for climate action in 2015, we only 687 00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: had probably one other organization talking about climate change now, 688 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,820 Speaker 2: we have more than 10 talking about reducing emissions and whatnot. 689 00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:43,690 Speaker 2: So I think like definitely changes take time and there's 690 00:32:43,690 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: more interest now for people to take action and for 691 00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:47,860 Speaker 2: the government to do more. 692 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,540 Speaker 2: So I think it's a matter of time before we 693 00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:50,350 Speaker 2: see more 694 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: changes because of the work that you helped to start 695 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: and the community that you've helped to develop, you see 696 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,290 Speaker 1: the exponential rate of action from the bottom 697 00:32:58,290 --> 00:32:59,580 Speaker 2: up asking 698 00:32:59,580 --> 00:33:02,030 Speaker 1: A question here, 2050, you think we can do it 699 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,790 Speaker 1: by then or earlier? I 700 00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:06,130 Speaker 2: have the confidence we can and I'm saying this not 701 00:33:06,130 --> 00:33:09,250 Speaker 2: just from my personal observations in Singapore you for climate action, 702 00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:10,860 Speaker 2: but also based on 703 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,770 Speaker 2: and one National Wide Scale Report. So, 704 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,380 Speaker 2: National Youth Council, for example, every few years they do 705 00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:19,100 Speaker 2: a national youth survey report and I think in the 706 00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:22,510 Speaker 2: latest one, which they did in the last quarter of 2019, 707 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,250 Speaker 2: there were several questions. Um but there was one question 708 00:33:25,250 --> 00:33:29,300 Speaker 2: on civic engagement in environmental issues and I think they 709 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 2: were contrasting the 2016 and the 2019 numbers and it 710 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,219 Speaker 2: I think almost doubled something around 20 plus percent to 711 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:37,350 Speaker 2: 50 plus percent. 712 00:33:37,540 --> 00:33:39,780 Speaker 2: And for me, just looking at that survey, you know, 713 00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 2: across 3000 odd youths um looking at the increase in 714 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,980 Speaker 2: civic engagement in conservation efforts. Just gives me a bit 715 00:33:46,980 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: more optimism as well that moving forward, more people will 716 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,220 Speaker 2: be talking about this, More people will be taking action 717 00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:54,230 Speaker 2: and changes can happen earlier. Perhaps 718 00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:56,630 Speaker 1: one thing the government is also thinking about in regard 719 00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: to engagement is engagement regarding the economic effects of some 720 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:00,460 Speaker 1: of the changes that 721 00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: It may have to implement. So, for example, carbon tax. 722 00:34:03,490 --> 00:34:06,130 Speaker 1: So we did another poll question, I hope this one 723 00:34:06,130 --> 00:34:08,569 Speaker 1: works for instance, which is that, you know, measures to 724 00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:12,550 Speaker 1: fight climate change will hurt the poor the most now, 725 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,420 Speaker 1: nearly 60% of our respondents said yes, any thoughts on 726 00:34:17,420 --> 00:34:19,460 Speaker 1: the s and activists, that must be a so called 727 00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:21,500 Speaker 1: rebuttal that you might have heard sometimes before. 728 00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:24,460 Speaker 2: Yes, surely climate action cannot hurt the people who are 729 00:34:24,469 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: important to us in society. The vulnerable, 730 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,779 Speaker 2: I guess, given the question that we have, um I 731 00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:31,900 Speaker 2: mean for me, Singapore is such a tiny island, whatever 732 00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:36,890 Speaker 2: climate impacts hits us, everyone will get hurt equally, but 733 00:34:36,890 --> 00:34:39,820 Speaker 2: in the sense of um people then hurts a group 734 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:42,629 Speaker 2: of people more. So then what kind of measures and 735 00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:44,700 Speaker 2: climate actions are we talking about? I guess we can 736 00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:45,970 Speaker 2: talk about like things 737 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,259 Speaker 2: in different ways. 738 00:34:47,340 --> 00:34:50,790 Speaker 2: So, if climate change, for example, causes extreme heat temperatures 739 00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:53,980 Speaker 2: and whatnot, and we're looking at again, the topic of 740 00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:56,630 Speaker 2: different households and how different households can adapt to all 741 00:34:56,630 --> 00:35:00,050 Speaker 2: these changes. Currently, if we talk about how Singapore is 742 00:35:00,050 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 2: trying to address this is by that, I think $24 million, 743 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,670 Speaker 2: climate-friendly household packages 744 00:35:04,739 --> 00:35:08,460 Speaker 2: and people can switch out to more energy efficient appliances 745 00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:12,860 Speaker 2: for me, that's one measure that is aimed to help 746 00:35:12,870 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 2: people who needs it more. And so, if I look 747 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,980 Speaker 2: at things from that perspective, I don't think climate action 748 00:35:17,980 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 2: on climate measures will hurt the poor in Singapore. Great 749 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: example, again, the question, if you put on that, if 750 00:35:23,930 --> 00:35:27,710 Speaker 1: mismanaged then yes, it will definitely miss measure the 751 00:35:27,710 --> 00:35:28,910 Speaker 2: effect of the point. 752 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,330 Speaker 1: The point is, let's say we put in the carbon 753 00:35:31,330 --> 00:35:34,170 Speaker 1: tax and then we get that revenue from that. If 754 00:35:34,170 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: we want to get people get the industries in Jurong 755 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,170 Speaker 1: island in palau Bonnie away from fossil fuels towards renewable 756 00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:42,670 Speaker 1: energy or CC US, 757 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,020 Speaker 1: that would require a heck of a lot of retraining, 758 00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: a heck of a lot of re skilling and how 759 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,589 Speaker 1: are you going to fund for that? So if it 760 00:35:50,590 --> 00:35:54,489 Speaker 1: was a mismanaged situation, like in some other countries where 761 00:35:54,489 --> 00:35:57,660 Speaker 1: tax revenue doesn't get channeled to the right a bunch 762 00:35:57,660 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: of people, then we'll be in trouble. Yes, then the vulnerable, 763 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,420 Speaker 1: the poor, they will be really screwed for want of 764 00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:03,950 Speaker 1: a better word 765 00:36:04,330 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: in this case, if the thinking is alright, we acknowledge 766 00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: that the poor will suffer disproportionately more, not just from 767 00:36:11,489 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: extreme heat, but also job losses or folks who are 768 00:36:15,330 --> 00:36:17,890 Speaker 1: in the gig economy who have to go and deliver 769 00:36:17,890 --> 00:36:20,060 Speaker 1: food by grab or food panda or by any other 770 00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:21,780 Speaker 1: company in the hot sun or in the rain and 771 00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:23,529 Speaker 1: have to deal with all the climate impacts their in 772 00:36:23,530 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: their jobs. 773 00:36:24,430 --> 00:36:28,670 Speaker 1: How best can they be protected? How can the benefits 774 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,260 Speaker 1: of that, the carbon tax revenue be channeled. So you've 775 00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:34,990 Speaker 1: got those packages for households, you can have re skilling 776 00:36:34,989 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: training packages that goes beyond skills future specifically for people 777 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,730 Speaker 1: working in the energy or the petrol camp sector to 778 00:36:43,739 --> 00:36:44,950 Speaker 1: move over and transition. 779 00:36:45,030 --> 00:36:48,510 Speaker 1: So if there is that sort of safety net or 780 00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:52,700 Speaker 1: as a DPM Tharman said trampoline to make sure these people, 781 00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:56,830 Speaker 1: the poor don't get to disproportionately affected by climate impacts, 782 00:36:56,830 --> 00:37:00,690 Speaker 1: then I'm all for it. It sounds a little and 783 00:37:00,690 --> 00:37:03,370 Speaker 1: perhaps less Trina some a term that came to mind 784 00:37:03,370 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: when you know, when Winston was talking about that was 785 00:37:05,530 --> 00:37:08,510 Speaker 1: just transition and that's something we mentioned earlier in this conversation. 786 00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:09,450 Speaker 1: That's something which 787 00:37:09,530 --> 00:37:12,650 Speaker 1: climate activists in Singapore have started to talk more about. 788 00:37:12,650 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: Can you share with us more about what that term means? 789 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:15,500 Speaker 1: Just transition 790 00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:19,330 Speaker 2: when we talk about just transition and green growth. So 791 00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: this is about growing the economy at a sustainable rate 792 00:37:23,690 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 2: that will also at the same time reduce emissions, reduce 793 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 2: greenhouse gas emissions. So this is to put things very 794 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,649 Speaker 2: briefly and when we then grow these economies 795 00:37:33,830 --> 00:37:37,029 Speaker 2: and we need to consider initiatives or programs that will 796 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 2: help people to move out of fossil fuels or heavy 797 00:37:41,650 --> 00:37:45,850 Speaker 2: emissions type of activities to one that is of lower emissions. 798 00:37:45,860 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 2: So very briefly that is just transition 799 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: And and also the apart from that, I think the 800 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: point is also to reduce the inequalities that can happen 801 00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: structurally if people who are in an industry that will 802 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: be affected by climate change to make sure that there 803 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,350 Speaker 1: are opportunities to benefit from the green growth that has 804 00:38:05,350 --> 00:38:08,779 Speaker 1: been posited won't be compromised or won't be taken away 805 00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:12,050 Speaker 1: in a transition from a carbon intensive economy to a 806 00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:13,060 Speaker 1: green economy 807 00:38:13,070 --> 00:38:16,060 Speaker 2: just get your parting shots as we round off this podcast. 808 00:38:16,070 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about this today, but I just 809 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: want to get a little bit at it. 810 00:38:19,620 --> 00:38:22,390 Speaker 2: So when we asked people what they think needs to 811 00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 2: be done, when we talk about climate change 812 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 2: again, a lot of the responses are individual actions and behavioral, 813 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: and I know you've talked a lot about how they 814 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,510 Speaker 2: can capitalize bigger systemic changes. But at the heart of 815 00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 2: it all, why is it that there is still that 816 00:38:36,450 --> 00:38:40,190 Speaker 2: focused on individual behavior when clearly, when you talk about 817 00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:44,190 Speaker 2: climate change is an existential global challenge that needs to 818 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:49,130 Speaker 2: be the biggest levers of society, technological business finance needs 819 00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:53,050 Speaker 2: to be brought to bear on this wicked challenge. What's 820 00:38:53,050 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: your parting shot for Singaporeans listening to this podcast and 821 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: then 822 00:38:57,420 --> 00:38:58,750 Speaker 2: when we asked them what needs to be done for 823 00:38:58,750 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 2: climate change, they tell me reduce plastic bags. What's your 824 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,060 Speaker 2: central message? 825 00:39:02,070 --> 00:39:04,250 Speaker 1: Don't forget straws 826 00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:09,100 Speaker 1: there is the urgency that a lot of individuals palestrina 827 00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: and the community that she's helped to develop in Singapore 828 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,830 Speaker 1: in the climate activists side 829 00:39:14,219 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: Among academics like myself, this urgency that we've felt since 830 00:39:18,690 --> 00:39:20,450 Speaker 1: Paris since 2015, I would say, 831 00:39:21,020 --> 00:39:26,580 Speaker 1: is starting to emerge within various private sector companies. The 832 00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: finance industry definitely built the construction industry as well. 833 00:39:30,820 --> 00:39:34,779 Speaker 1: It is catching up. And while we point out the 834 00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:39,750 Speaker 1: overall ineffectiveness of individuals to effect the structural changes needed. 835 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,850 Speaker 1: The signals are being picked up by others. My feeling 836 00:39:43,850 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: is that this urgency that we have exhausted ourselves, you know, 837 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,180 Speaker 1: trying to to push forward the weight that we've been 838 00:39:51,180 --> 00:39:54,970 Speaker 1: baring is finally being picked up by local companies, regional 839 00:39:54,969 --> 00:39:56,830 Speaker 1: companies and global companies as well. 840 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,169 Speaker 1: The government, you know, as much as we like to 841 00:39:59,170 --> 00:40:02,710 Speaker 1: poke at the blah blah blah effect from various cops, 842 00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:04,739 Speaker 1: including the one that happened in Glasgow. 843 00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: They see if you look at the actual documents, the 844 00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:10,830 Speaker 1: key thing that I noted in Glasgow was that now 845 00:40:10,830 --> 00:40:13,790 Speaker 1: we're no longer talking about two degrees, we're talking about 1.5. 846 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: A lot of countries are not focusing on 1.5 847 00:40:16,510 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: and we don't have much time. We will exceed 1.5 848 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,830 Speaker 1: sometime in the next decade. But the chance of it 849 00:40:20,830 --> 00:40:24,260 Speaker 1: going back down, that's what the I. P. C. C. Report, 850 00:40:24,260 --> 00:40:26,190 Speaker 1: the Science report came up with this is if we 851 00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:28,339 Speaker 1: still keep to the net zero goal, we will drop 852 00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: back down to 1.5 by the end of this century. 853 00:40:31,010 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 1: The education of this, I think is spreading. 854 00:40:34,610 --> 00:40:37,570 Speaker 1: I talked earlier with industry now about the exponential rate 855 00:40:37,570 --> 00:40:39,530 Speaker 1: of activity and action from individuals. 856 00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:43,410 Speaker 1: I think that will also take place in other sectors 857 00:40:43,410 --> 00:40:46,450 Speaker 1: and my hope and that the takeaways for everyone listening 858 00:40:46,450 --> 00:40:50,189 Speaker 1: is that watch for that exponential growth and awareness of 859 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,779 Speaker 1: climate action. Climate mitigation of sustainable growth from other aspects 860 00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:57,930 Speaker 1: of society that will happen over the next few years 861 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,740 Speaker 2: industry to take us home. So, for me to thoughts 862 00:41:01,010 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 2: So first is in terms of individual actions, no matter 863 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,330 Speaker 2: what individual actions you take do won, that influences decision 864 00:41:07,330 --> 00:41:11,529 Speaker 2: makers and policymakers so that more things can be changed 865 00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:13,430 Speaker 2: or get done at a structural level. 866 00:41:13,810 --> 00:41:16,489 Speaker 2: Um the other part is have an open mind and 867 00:41:16,489 --> 00:41:18,860 Speaker 2: have more empathy when talking to different people because I 868 00:41:18,860 --> 00:41:22,470 Speaker 2: think people in different sectors, they all have different challenges 869 00:41:22,469 --> 00:41:24,580 Speaker 2: and we don't know what's going on. So you have 870 00:41:24,580 --> 00:41:27,410 Speaker 2: an open mind and have more empathy and work together 871 00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 2: to see how we can create changes faster. 872 00:41:30,370 --> 00:41:33,030 Speaker 1: That's a good note on which we can close our conversation, 873 00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:34,430 Speaker 1: Winston and Latrina 874 00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: thank you very much for being here 875 00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:41,460 Speaker 1: and there. You have it unpopular opinions on climate change 876 00:41:41,469 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: in Singapore. Put to the test with Dr Winston child. 877 00:41:43,969 --> 00:41:47,690 Speaker 1: Associate professor of Science technology and society at Singapore Management 878 00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:52,300 Speaker 1: University and climate activists. Co founder of Singapore. Youth for 879 00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:53,990 Speaker 1: Climate action. 880 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 2: Now for more insights on the issues close to the 881 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,280 Speaker 2: hearts of Singapore youth tune in next week as this 882 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,810 Speaker 2: special four part series continues. This has been hard on 883 00:42:03,810 --> 00:42:05,980 Speaker 2: the matter with me, lindsey Stirling 884 00:42:05,989 --> 00:42:08,470 Speaker 1: and Christina robert, our podcast 885 00:42:08,469 --> 00:42:11,660 Speaker 2: editor and very low our research writer signing off until 886 00:42:11,660 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: next time