Speaker 1: the following is a CNN a podcast.
Speaker 1: This is the climate conversations. I'm Jamie ho. This episode
Speaker 1: is a special one. It's episode number 68 the last
Speaker 1: that I will host so far change, we brought in
Speaker 1: one of our past guests to ask the questions this
Speaker 1: time to me. I remember speaking to in in september
Speaker 1: 2021 she's a young activist eager to spread the message
Speaker 1: on climate action in her own way on social media,
Speaker 1: serious messages spread in the uniquely visual way on instagram.
Speaker 1: So we've turned the tables and she spoke to me
Speaker 1: about my journey having these climate conversations and this was
Speaker 1: our conversation.
Speaker 1: Hi
Speaker 2: Jamie, Welcome to the 68th episode of your own podcast
Speaker 2: and I'm very happy to be here today with you.
Speaker 1: Hi Shane. It's kind of weird, but thanks for speaking
Speaker 1: with me and asking the questions for a change
Speaker 2: today, you just have to turn off your podcast host
Speaker 2: brain and let me
Speaker 2: Step in for me the next like 20-30 minutes and
Speaker 2: ask you questions for a change. Since this is a
Speaker 2: wrapper podcast episode of sorts. It'll be a fun time
Speaker 2: to look back at all the episodes that you've produced
Speaker 2: and it's quite a hefty number. This is 68, so
Speaker 2: that's 67. That's already been out
Speaker 2: and let's get to the bottom of all of that. Right,
Speaker 2: So I'm going to ask you some quick fire questions.
Speaker 2: Maybe just a few, No pressure.
Speaker 2: And the first one would be what has been the
Speaker 2: most difficult topic to cover so far.
Speaker 1: I don't think that they have been very many difficult topics.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about the climate conversations is that in
Speaker 1: theory they're all kind of difficult topics because we are
Speaker 1: facing as everyone knows an existential crisis. We are trying
Speaker 1: to ramp up action and awareness and education and things
Speaker 1: like that. They're all difficult and all of them. I
Speaker 1: try to see that there are difficult conversations to be had,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, a running theme in almost
Speaker 1: all the podcast is that there's always some potential for
Speaker 1: positivity and you know, action can still be done. People say,
Speaker 1: you know, we can still do it, etcetera, etcetera. And
Speaker 1: to be honest, it came through most of my conversations
Speaker 1: with younger people like you in the past and
Speaker 1: some of your friends like, and as well, right? Where
Speaker 1: we did get into quite difficult conversations, not difficult in
Speaker 1: that they were tough, but they raised difficult issues and
Speaker 1: I quite enjoyed those.
Speaker 2: It's funny you say that because I don't see myself
Speaker 2: as particularly positive from the entire situation,
Speaker 2: but that brings me back to, you know, with this
Speaker 2: being one of your closing episodes, how how are you
Speaker 2: feeling about everything?
Speaker 1: It's really weird because it's come quite a long way
Speaker 1: and on certain issues, it's kind of taken a full circle, right?
Speaker 1: And one of the first things that we spoke about belt,
Speaker 1: for example, the carbon tax right?
Speaker 1: And back in well August not last year, the year
Speaker 1: before that, we were still dealing with the $5 per
Speaker 1: ton carbon tax, right? And the people that I spoke
Speaker 1: to and myself included, we're already quite disappointed that we
Speaker 1: had landed at that figure. And various guests have
Speaker 1: pointed to the fact that we needed to push this
Speaker 1: up quite significantly. One of them being lewis in the
Speaker 1: Mp as well.
Speaker 1: So we were talking about that very early on, we
Speaker 1: were talking about, yes, it needs to go up. We're
Speaker 1: looking at international comparisons. I tried to get into a
Speaker 1: little bit over one or two episodes as to how
Speaker 1: we ended up at $5 when the initial indication might
Speaker 1: have been, there will be 10 to $15. And this
Speaker 1: was just a year and a half ago, right? But
Speaker 1: now we see where we've landed in the last 23
Speaker 1: weeks with the budget announcement as where it could potentially
Speaker 1: go up to buy 2030 or so, and that really
Speaker 1: showed the narrative and the acceleration of action has really
Speaker 1: been quite stark in the last year. And that's quite
Speaker 1: heartening to see that coming from the government. That has been,
Speaker 1: I would say, I suppose a little bit reactive and
Speaker 1: has listened to people like you, hopefully, like the younger
Speaker 1: climate activists, like people like Mp louis, um and that's
Speaker 1: where we are. So it's quite
Speaker 1: heartening to see that we've come full circle on an
Speaker 1: issue like that,
Speaker 2: that took me by surprise also. And I know that
Speaker 2: you have already covered this in the climate conversations. So
Speaker 2: people who are keen observers of such issues, you see
Speaker 2: things starting to get to where you want it to
Speaker 2: be even though where you wanted to be was like,
Speaker 2: okay, maybe five years ago, it should be here already
Speaker 2: la
Speaker 2: but we're here now and let's jump into a bit
Speaker 2: more of history deep dive for yourself. So I've done
Speaker 2: some stocking. I've done all my necessary stocking and you're
Speaker 2: not a stranger to climate change. In fact you've been
Speaker 2: in it for quite some time, right? Why don't you
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about your background?
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for stalking. Um but just just to recap,
Speaker 1: I mean
Speaker 1: Journalism for me has been something that we lived with
Speaker 1: the last 80 odd years, right? And before that I
Speaker 1: was a foreign service officer. My last assignment there was
Speaker 1: as the climate negotiator, right? So I did the whole
Speaker 1: um cop exercise and all the international travel to get
Speaker 1: to the cop that I attended which was in Doha.
Speaker 1: And as you know, diplomats do very regular postings and
Speaker 1: assignments and very two or three years you get something new,
Speaker 1: which is a fun part of the job. So that
Speaker 1: was a real education for me as well. It was
Speaker 1: intense and in those 1.5 years that I did that
Speaker 1: it's incredible how much I learned
Speaker 1: which I tried to bring to this current role in
Speaker 1: hosting this podcast and also looking after a little bit
Speaker 1: of overall climate change coverage, but obviously coming from the
Speaker 1: sort of background as a climate negotiator to be frank
Speaker 1: with you after I had done that and then in
Speaker 1: my process that I said, oh my God, is this
Speaker 1: what it's about? Everyone arguing about comin here and a
Speaker 1: full stop there and this word versus that word is
Speaker 1: this really what climate action is about. And there were
Speaker 1: times when you really felt kind of discouraged,
Speaker 1: oh, goodness gracious. We go from one year to another
Speaker 1: just working on a document and then one document and
Speaker 1: I spoke to Alex Sharma recently, he just says right,
Speaker 1: these are just collections of words until they become real action.
Speaker 1: That's when it really starts. So even arguing about words
Speaker 1: and negotiating words on something like climate change was challenging.
Speaker 1: But you know, I suppose that's where it has to start,
Speaker 1: that there is no other alternative to it
Speaker 1: in terms of coordinated international action. So, on the one hand, yes,
Speaker 1: that was my past life. But one of the more
Speaker 1: interesting things therefore, that I saw and I have been
Speaker 1: seeing more since I left, that was how that complements
Speaker 1: over all other action that countries by themselves can take
Speaker 1: in concept between government, business and Ngos and activists like
Speaker 1: young people like you guys and that is really what
Speaker 1: it's encouraging. So for me, I think again, it's been
Speaker 1: a great experience doing that in my past life, One
Speaker 1: element of it. And they're now seeing it here and
Speaker 1: then in my own little way
Speaker 1: now being able to advocate a little bit more as well.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're a diplomat, you're usually sort of
Speaker 1: representing a national interest and the challenging part about that
Speaker 1: is that you have to balance the national interest with
Speaker 1: what
Speaker 1: internationally is expected and what internationally can be done. And
Speaker 1: the three of them don't always
Speaker 1: match. There are always these junctions between what's realistic, what
Speaker 1: needs to be done and what nationally can be done to. Right?
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's been a fun ride. Really enjoyed that.
Speaker 1: Being able now to have taken the last 4.5 years
Speaker 1: to advocate again for climate action through this podcast has
Speaker 1: been great
Speaker 2: as your own perspectives on climate change change as you become,
Speaker 2: you know, chief editor at C. N. A. Digital, you know,
Speaker 2: like
Speaker 2: has there been any big shifts in your own personalized
Speaker 2: about how you view what can be done about climate change?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. One of the things which I could
Speaker 1: never understand about the climate negotiations first, right, was all
Speaker 1: the travel that went behind it, you know? And because unlike,
Speaker 1: let's say the U. N. Or the W. H. O.
Speaker 1: The W. T. O. There's no permanent home for the
Speaker 1: climate negotiations. So people travel a lot. You traveled to
Speaker 1: a cop to travel to a pre cop which is
Speaker 1: the meeting before cop. You traveled to this half yearly
Speaker 1: meetings that bond and in between people travel as well.
Speaker 1: And I'm like why hasn't someone mentioned the carbon footprint before?
Speaker 1: But that got me a bit perplexed after a while.
Speaker 1: I dealt with it in my own little way. But
Speaker 1: now having come out and spoken to so many people,
Speaker 1: one of the biggest things for me now is sort
Speaker 1: of a global level
Speaker 1: which is related to all the travel is I think
Speaker 1: we haven't and I've come to understand this even more
Speaker 1: and more talking to younger people, especially we haven't come
Speaker 1: to grips with how we are consuming as human beings,
Speaker 1: our overall consumption and the trend towards using the resources
Speaker 1: that we do and it's in everything that we do.
Speaker 1: And I do realize now that it is so fundamental
Speaker 1: to our existence, right. Whether it's the clothes we wear,
Speaker 1: the food, we eat, the cars we drive, the homes
Speaker 1: we build,
Speaker 1: everything is about consumption. And until we realize that if
Speaker 1: we are serious about addressing not just the issue of
Speaker 1: climate change, but overall sustainability, we need to really come
Speaker 1: to grips with. Is it always an upward trend in
Speaker 1: terms of how much we consume as a civilization. I
Speaker 1: don't make it sound like it's bigger than it is.
Speaker 1: But I think that's the truth that always one problem
Speaker 1: can be solved just by
Speaker 1: creating something else and consuming more of something else? I
Speaker 1: wish and I hope that you know increasingly we as
Speaker 1: a people can talk about that a bit more. That's
Speaker 1: something which I would suppose being able to learn given
Speaker 1: my perch here as chief editor and also hosting this
Speaker 1: podcast and
Speaker 1: being a parent and talking to as I said, I
Speaker 1: always say this young people like you you do realize
Speaker 1: I think we do need a reckoning of thoughts and
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I think the younger folks have been
Speaker 1: pushing that more than us.
Speaker 2: Yeah and I really like what you said about the
Speaker 2: fact that it's almost like we haven't re consult the
Speaker 2: climate crisis with our own day today
Speaker 2: or even for us who do that day today there
Speaker 2: is a very weird cognitive dissonance that even as I
Speaker 2: reduce my plastic today, the world is still burning but
Speaker 2: at the same time you can't give that up. And
Speaker 2: then there are people flying all over the world for U. N.
Speaker 2: Conferences of climate change and there's just so many hypocrisy
Speaker 2: is that you are also made to come to terms
Speaker 2: with that. Speaking about conversations that you're driving, there are
Speaker 2: questions for this podcast that I have gathered from your
Speaker 2: past guests from your staff
Speaker 2: and I think one that asked this is from Melissa
Speaker 2: liu who is a past
Speaker 1: guest for a
Speaker 2: freak. Okay.
Speaker 1: she
Speaker 2: asked what drives you in this world and what's the
Speaker 2: genesis of something like the climate conversations, especially what with
Speaker 2: your experience
Speaker 1: at some point, Mediacorp and Sienna decided quite rightly that
Speaker 1: they wanted to put
Speaker 1: climate change and sustainability as a real corporate as well
Speaker 1: as editorial area of focus. So we built a vertical
Speaker 1: on our website, our colleagues on the broadcast side of
Speaker 1: the house is so devoted resources to propping their coverage
Speaker 1: quite significantly.
Speaker 1: It is one of those weird coincidences in life that
Speaker 1: they had me staying sitting around and they say, hey
Speaker 1: this is right up your alley, why didn't you do this?
Speaker 1: So what drives me is the fact that it's a
Speaker 1: different kind of perch right? When you were sitting as
Speaker 1: a climate negotiator, you had a little perch, not the
Speaker 1: most influential so to speak, in that yeah, you you
Speaker 1: are there, you have a job to do. Sometimes it
Speaker 1: doesn't sit well with you as a person, sometimes it does,
Speaker 1: but it is
Speaker 1: that is a smaller universe. And now where I am,
Speaker 1: I do feel that I am fortunate to have had
Speaker 1: that bigger purge. So what drives me is really to
Speaker 1: be able to at least help work with my guests to,
Speaker 1: if they can't answer at least let's ask the questions together,
Speaker 1: the harder questions about the things that we need to
Speaker 1: do from the big actions to the smaller ones. And
Speaker 1: one of the things that drives me really is the
Speaker 1: need for us to really always focus on the big
Speaker 1: picture
Speaker 1: at the level of government, at the level of the
Speaker 1: big Corporates. And let's not get too distracted by the
Speaker 1: micro actions. I think the micro actions are needed amongst individuals,
Speaker 1: but sometimes they can be a substitute for real action. Yes,
Speaker 1: plastic bag bans are good. Using a fewer, plastic bags
Speaker 1: are good
Speaker 1: using two less straws a day is good. But those,
Speaker 1: I characterize them as micro actions, which pushed the extreme
Speaker 1: sometimes distract and delay real action. So that has been
Speaker 1: a running theme for me that drives me too. I'm
Speaker 1: a firm believer in big problems, need big actions and
Speaker 1: the
Speaker 1: biggest people who need to and can act our governments
Speaker 1: and big corporations. So that is what's driven me and
Speaker 1: maybe that will drive me more in the coming years
Speaker 1: to
Speaker 2: there. That makes a lot of sense. And I think
Speaker 2: that's a perennial theme. There are a lot of activists
Speaker 2: also talked about right, like stop distracting us with all these,
Speaker 2: every individual can take action of course you can. But
Speaker 2: some individuals are more powerful than others. For example, when
Speaker 2: the same node, right has the podcast achieved what you
Speaker 2: set out to do?
Speaker 1: I'll be realistic, obviously can't do very much at the
Speaker 1: very least I would have hoped that it has become
Speaker 1: one source for people in Singapore to go to, to
Speaker 1: listen to things and to learn a little bit more
Speaker 1: about the issues that matter to them if they're interested
Speaker 1: in the areas of climate change and sustainability, there's always
Speaker 1: a danger of preaching to the converted,
Speaker 1: the people who already listen, the people who are already
Speaker 1: interested are interested and are taking action. So, the challenge
Speaker 1: for me has always been whether or not we can
Speaker 1: grow this beyond just the interested people like me and you,
Speaker 1: to the students, to other general listeners who can suddenly
Speaker 1: find that, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about climate change in the general enough manner,
Speaker 1: but also specific enough that they learn a little bit
Speaker 1: more about that as to whether we've achieved that. I
Speaker 1: think so, we aren't so influential. Climate change is one
Speaker 1: of those weird issues where people, I'm talking about the
Speaker 1: general public like to say that they're interested like to
Speaker 1: say that they would like to learn more. But I
Speaker 1: think that the truth is that
Speaker 1: there's so much news out there on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis, So much news and infotainment
Speaker 1: and other distractions that I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes
Speaker 1: climate change news falls away down the list of priorities
Speaker 1: on what they read and watch and listen to, but
Speaker 1: every little step helps. And I think we've done a
Speaker 1: little bit in the right direction.
Speaker 2: These episodes have far ranging reach, especially as students
Speaker 2: or use who are starting out in this space and
Speaker 2: really don't know what to read and where to begin, right?
Speaker 2: Like you really don't find a lot of
Speaker 2: Singapore specific or regional specific content out there. And I
Speaker 2: would say that podcast like TCC does a very good
Speaker 2: job at bringing the right people to the table and
Speaker 2: here is 20 minutes of your time taking on your
Speaker 2: commute to school and get up to date. So I
Speaker 2: would say, yeah, that has been fantastic
Speaker 2: and it's something that I would recommend to peers or
Speaker 2: two juniors who are just starting out.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a quick break. Climate conversations
Speaker 1: has been supported by Sabina Jurong Building cities, shaping lives. Now,
Speaker 1: back to our conversation,
Speaker 2: I'm just curious, has there been an episode that you
Speaker 2: kept on the back burner for a very long time
Speaker 2: that you wish you produced
Speaker 1: well to my producers who helped me put this podcast together,
Speaker 1: Crispino and Aaron and for this scrolling, I would really
Speaker 1: have liked to have spoken to al gore, but you know,
Speaker 1: things happen and we never really got down to al gore,
Speaker 1: but it would have been great to talk to him.
Speaker 1: He's one of those characters who,
Speaker 1: it's not beyond the realms of possibility, but still very,
Speaker 1: very difficult. He obviously has a gazillion other things to do,
Speaker 1: but he is like the original voice, so to speak,
Speaker 1: who exploded climate change into the public perception right? So
Speaker 1: many years ago, it would be great to get him
Speaker 1: to talk about his own journey
Speaker 1: from those first few presentations which became a movie which
Speaker 1: became a movement, right?
Speaker 1: So I would have loved to have spoken to him
Speaker 1: and I joke with some of my younger colleagues as
Speaker 1: well that you know, why didn't they get me leo
Speaker 1: Dicaprio as well? I would have loved to have spoken
Speaker 1: with him. So yeah, those two probably would have, the
Speaker 1: top of my list
Speaker 2: will be a Moonshot guests for TCC
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, we are realistic singaporeans.
Speaker 2: But what is your favorite episode so far then,
Speaker 1: funnily enough to comments ago that you made made me remember.
Speaker 1: And really the favorite episode was when I spoke to
Speaker 1: to secondary school students and their teacher. And it was
Speaker 1: quite amazing because on the one hand we speak about
Speaker 1: micro actions, but at the same time the micro actions
Speaker 1: of
Speaker 1: the younger generation like them, 15, 16 year olds and
Speaker 1: you can see that they really know quite a lot,
Speaker 1: you really know that being teenagers, the actions that they
Speaker 1: take will probably be small, but they form the basis that,
Speaker 1: you know that these people when they become older and
Speaker 1: they become university students, but they become young adults, you
Speaker 1: know that they will carry on and these micro actions
Speaker 1: will become bigger and you can sense that
Speaker 1: even if they won't become activists with the capital a
Speaker 1: they will become activists with a small a and push. Right?
Speaker 1: So I really enjoyed that. I really enjoyed listening to
Speaker 1: the teacher who was explaining how she imbued them with
Speaker 1: sustainability the actions they can take as a school, making
Speaker 1: sure that these trends and issues transcended specific subjects. I
Speaker 1: mean it's not geography is not signed specifically and she
Speaker 1: was explaining that, yeah, they try and spread it out
Speaker 1: through as many formal subjects as possible. So that was really,
Speaker 1: really fun speaking to the two Syrians and there was
Speaker 1: quite a change from all the serious other podcasts that
Speaker 1: we've done.
Speaker 1: I enjoyed that really a lot. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: would have hoped that they would have told their valuable students. Hey,
Speaker 1: I was on a podcast. Go listen to me. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if that happened because, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure how many 14 and 15 year olds listen
Speaker 1: to podcasts these days, but at the very least adults
Speaker 1: who listen to them should have come away with a
Speaker 1: different message as well. That hey,
Speaker 1: There are 1415 year olds out there who are interested
Speaker 1: and will be pushing all of us adults to do
Speaker 1: more and more down the line. Right.
Speaker 2: That's true. I really like that you said that because
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if they're listening to your podcast.
Speaker 2: Maybe if you guys are on Tiktok more then, you know,
Speaker 2: they will, they will learn it from.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's another conversation.
Speaker 1: Let's see when they become 20 year olds and can
Speaker 1: take action whether or not and how they do it
Speaker 1: and where they get their information from.
Speaker 2: So speaking about young people, right as a young person myself,
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: have a long way to go on this planet and
Speaker 2: there is still a long time for me to live.
Speaker 2: And this question is actually from one of your previous guests,
Speaker 2: dr Winston chao and also Christina, if I'm not wrong.
Speaker 2: So the question goes, so Jamie, do you really think
Speaker 2: we are screwed?
Speaker 2: And how much do you really have?
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised that this question came from wisdom and Christina.
Speaker 1: I mean as we sit behind our screens and as
Speaker 1: we chat, they know me and they know my view
Speaker 1: and how I've said University of Commerce, we're screwed on
Speaker 1: several occasions. Yes and no, okay.
Speaker 1: The one fundamental thing I've learned about human beings and
Speaker 1: human behavior
Speaker 1: through the years as a
Speaker 1: diplomat and where I am and you see this in
Speaker 1: daily life as well, Everyone knows that they need to
Speaker 1: do something. Whether it's about eating healthily, whether it's about
Speaker 1: doing the real hygiene factors in life, but nothing really
Speaker 1: wakes people up to do it
Speaker 1: unless there's a real catastrophe. And there's a real major
Speaker 1: sort of event that sort of wakes people up to say,
Speaker 1: my God, this is the time to do it. And
Speaker 1: in the areas of climate change, the truth is that
Speaker 1: we do need, it would appear
Speaker 1: these natural disasters that sort of wake people up to
Speaker 1: the fact that this is happening. It is a weird
Speaker 1: thing to say. You know, sometimes you do need it
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure whether we've gotten there yet. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure whether the small
Speaker 1: wildfires floods all these things in Australia, all over the
Speaker 1: world they're happening, but I'm not sure whether in and
Speaker 1: of themselves they have been enough to galvanize reel global action.
Speaker 1: I feel bad saying it this way, but I think
Speaker 1: that that is the truth, yes, all the steps that
Speaker 1: we've taken so far, especially for example from the paris
Speaker 1: agreement and most recently in Glasgow, all these unnecessary and
Speaker 1: the bare minimum and sometimes even exceeding the bare minimum.
Speaker 1: But I think that there is still a lot to
Speaker 1: go to build on these bare minimums, but I think
Speaker 1: at some stage that there really needs to be another
Speaker 1: wake up call,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that a lot of Corporates have already come
Speaker 1: up and I'm glad that Net zero has become everyday
Speaker 1: vocabulary already, that is necessary. There is sort of one
Speaker 1: steady upward trajectory, but I fear we do need another
Speaker 1: jump in the trajectory. Another quantum leap, for lack of
Speaker 1: a better analogy,
Speaker 1: whether or not that comes from a significant disaster, who knows,
Speaker 1: I would hope not, but it may have to come
Speaker 1: to that. Covid was meant to be one for us
Speaker 1: to take, stop as a people, as a world as
Speaker 1: to how we live sustainably as to what global health
Speaker 1: pandemics mean as to what
Speaker 1: supply chains mean. But there is again another part of
Speaker 1: marriage fears that we may have lost the main messages
Speaker 1: as we start to recover. But we shall see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, two years on we're still here unsure whether much progress.
Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of talk on sustainability now
Speaker 2: but how much action is still questionable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one of the catchphrases that we spoke
Speaker 1: about and we heard so much in the first year
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, especially in 2020. Right,
Speaker 1: was this thing about the green recovery
Speaker 1: green growth and pardon me. But I think it has
Speaker 1: fallen off the radar screen a little bit because the
Speaker 1: growth and the recovery has already happened and it has
Speaker 1: become quite a normal recovery, so to speak. So I
Speaker 1: think it needs to come back. We do need to
Speaker 1: look back and see how we recovered. Has the recovery
Speaker 1: been
Speaker 1: even more unequal has a recovery led to even more
Speaker 1: consumption? Has the recovery been slightly unsustainable in certain ways?
Speaker 1: Of course, what's happening in Ukraine doesn't help at all?
Speaker 1: But what do you do? So there's always one distraction
Speaker 1: or the other away from climate change and sustainability? Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll get back on track sooner rather than later for
Speaker 1: that quantum leap. I think
Speaker 2: it's hard, right? Especially when this is climate change is
Speaker 2: a slow burn of sorts. You're not going to be
Speaker 2: seeing
Speaker 2: a massive typhoon, you're not going to be seeing mass
Speaker 2: destruction before people change. Everything seems very big. So to
Speaker 2: me it's also like how big does something have to
Speaker 2: get
Speaker 2: to wake you all up? Right. And with that note,
Speaker 2: like you said, I keep hearing green recovery, Green girls,
Speaker 2: green economy green jobs at some point it gets very
Speaker 2: tiring, I'm sure is there a sustainability topic of phrase
Speaker 2: that you wish people stop harping about the sustainability pet
Speaker 2: peeve if you will?
Speaker 1: Well, I wouldn't call it a pet peeve, but I
Speaker 1: would call it a warning
Speaker 1: about this thing called E. S. G. It is a
Speaker 1: corporate phrase. It is a reality that everyone is jumping
Speaker 1: on board for good and slightly unclear. Yes, it is
Speaker 1: a fundamental thing that needs to be done. Corporations all
Speaker 1: around the world do need to look at what they're
Speaker 1: doing on the E. S. G. Front,
Speaker 1: you do get expertise coming up and advising them what
Speaker 1: to do on E. S. G. But I think there
Speaker 1: will again come a reckoning when people start analyzing whether
Speaker 1: and how these are for reel and how much of
Speaker 1: this is accountable, how much of this is greenwashing, how
Speaker 1: much of this can be measured? There's been a lot
Speaker 1: of good steps so far, but I think the hard
Speaker 1: work really hasn't started yet.
Speaker 1: It has started for some of the companies who are
Speaker 1: on the front foot on that and we're all happy
Speaker 1: to see that. But I'm sure that there are others
Speaker 1: who are
Speaker 1: perhaps dealing with it a bit more transactional E than
Speaker 1: its desired, I would suggest. And I would think in
Speaker 1: my humble view is that
Speaker 1: people should start taking this time, not just to start
Speaker 1: on E. S. G. Not just to hire an E. S. G. Person,
Speaker 1: not just to hire an E. S. G. Consultant, but
Speaker 1: to think about really what the prognosis is for the
Speaker 1: next 5 to 10 years and E. S. G cannot
Speaker 1: just be a communications issue. It has to be about
Speaker 1: a fundamental way of how you shape your business. How
Speaker 1: do you view
Speaker 1: stakeholder returns? Are you still beholden to your shareholders? Is
Speaker 1: it always going to be still business as usual in
Speaker 1: terms of your shareholders? And the shareholders understand that sometimes E. S. G.
Speaker 1: Can add value, but sometimes it may harm your core
Speaker 1: business too.
Speaker 1: And it's one of those conversations that I think again,
Speaker 1: it's happening at different degrees and different levels.
Speaker 1: But I think the sooner that everyone starts on this
Speaker 1: obviously the better and better they do it themselves than
Speaker 1: to have young people like you and other 10 15
Speaker 1: year old students one day growing up and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: by the way this company said this five years ago,
Speaker 1: let's go back and check right and see whether there's
Speaker 1: any meat to it and then realize that there's none
Speaker 1: much work ahead on E. S. G.
Speaker 1: So that's something which I think can be done much
Speaker 1: better in the coming years.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I was just at raffles place the
Speaker 2: other day
Speaker 2: and walking out of the MRT alone, it was like E. S. G.
Speaker 2: Values from bank one here, sustainable investing or bank to
Speaker 2: hear some environmental efforts of corporate company one, and I'm
Speaker 2: just like, wow,
Speaker 2: everyone is talking about it, but what's really happening and
Speaker 2: is it just trendier than it's supposed to be like,
Speaker 2: are people talking more than they're acting? So I totally
Speaker 2: agree with you on that and it's been really a
Speaker 2: pleasure listening to the TCC and learning a lot from
Speaker 2: the people that you've managed to bring onboard and to
Speaker 2: share their wisdom and your wisdom.
Speaker 2: It's very clear that this is an issue that is
Speaker 2: dear to your heart and it's something that you're very
Speaker 2: familiar with and I think we all benefit from that passion,
Speaker 2: the work that the entire team has put in. So
Speaker 2: my last question to you now is what advice do
Speaker 2: you have to any young person listening to this? Either
Speaker 2: dreaming about the future and sustainability or
Speaker 2: maybe a small hopeful that is trying to be like, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, what's next, what do I have to look
Speaker 2: out for, what you have to say
Speaker 1: for a young person who is really interested in this
Speaker 1: and who really wants to do something about it? I
Speaker 1: would suggest two things. One really know where the levers
Speaker 1: of power and influence lie in whatever society are in
Speaker 1: whether Singapore or any other country you need to know
Speaker 1: who are the people who will power who influences them
Speaker 1: and how you can influence them.
Speaker 1: So therefore know how your N. G. O. S. Work
Speaker 1: nowhere the N. G. O. S. Sit in the universe
Speaker 1: of influence in the country, know how the government's work,
Speaker 1: know who influences the government and then know how you
Speaker 1: can influence them. Work with your Mp. Work with the N. G. O. S.
Speaker 1: Be active on that front. Be aware on that front
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 1: It's more complicated than you think. I would advise young
Speaker 1: people that you know, it's not so simple. Everyone exists
Speaker 1: in their own sort of cultural, political, cultural context. What
Speaker 1: may work in one country won't necessarily work in another country,
Speaker 1: what works in one society won't work in another society.
Speaker 1: So again, you have to be very acute, fully aware
Speaker 1: of that and work with that context that you have.
Speaker 1: So that's one. The other thing I would say is that,
Speaker 1: you know, fundamentally younger people will become older people and
Speaker 1: you must realize that at the end of the day
Speaker 1: nothing talks louder than money. Money talks how you spend,
Speaker 1: who you spend it on, how much less you spend, right?
Speaker 1: How much less you consume,
Speaker 1: You may consume this instead of that the power of
Speaker 1: your own
Speaker 1: actions to consume more
Speaker 1: powerful than you think and don't be shy about that
Speaker 1: young people, therefore also need to come to grips with
Speaker 1: their own consuming habits and to know that if they're
Speaker 1: going to consume less, it has implications all around, not
Speaker 1: just on the climate and sustainability and on businesses as well,
Speaker 1: all actions have consequences, and so long as they do
Speaker 1: it with open eyes
Speaker 1: and know that they are doing this for themselves and
Speaker 1: another future generations and I think we're all the better
Speaker 1: for it,
Speaker 2: thank you for that. And with that, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: as a young person, what I take away from from
Speaker 2: all of this, like I really like what you said
Speaker 2: about knowing who's in power and knowing the power dynamics
Speaker 2: because as much as we want to take little action
Speaker 2: without taking strategic action, we also get burnt out. We
Speaker 2: get this illusion very quickly
Speaker 2: because you forget
Speaker 2: why something is not working or how does something work.
Speaker 2: I thought that that was a very good wake up call,
Speaker 2: at least for me to think about what does it
Speaker 2: look like in my society, what does that dynamic look
Speaker 2: like and how do we charge forward? Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for joining me on your podcast and I really
Speaker 2: wish you all the best.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you continue to
Speaker 1: stay up to date on CNN's coverage of climate change
Speaker 1: on sienna dot asia. It's all on the orange tab.
Speaker 1: You can also find this another podcast on our website
Speaker 1: and on Itunes and Spotify. Big thank you to the
Speaker 1: team that has produced the climate conversations, Christina, robert and
Speaker 1: Aaron Low and to you, Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: this and all our past podcasts.