Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. Now,
Speaker 1: I've been in journalism ever since I graduated from school. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've worked for several news organizations, but I've never stepped
Speaker 1: outside of this field. So I'm always interested to meet
Speaker 1: people who do a hard pivot with their careers. Gerald,
Speaker 1: what's the biggest career switch you've ever heard of? I
Speaker 1: think in my experience, big career switches are not very common.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just minor ones, right? Yeah, you see the smaller
Speaker 1: adjacent or career pivots, like for example, from social worker,
Speaker 1: you may become a counselor, but I did recently meet
Speaker 1: someone who made a larger career switch from banking to
Speaker 1: diplomatic foreign affairs. Oh wow, that's really quite different because
Speaker 1: different skill sets, right? To make this big switch, we
Speaker 1: really need to find what's transferable across that person's experience.
Speaker 1: One of the hardest career switches.
Speaker 1: I can think of is going from one where you
Speaker 1: pick up generalized skills to a job that requires technical know-how.
Speaker 1: For example, I don't think I can survive an interview
Speaker 1: for a tech job. That is something that I have
Speaker 1: zero skills in like coding. I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: have you? Yeah, so I've tried coding in HTML in
Speaker 1: school before and I failed that subject because the minute
Speaker 1: the teacher say, go into the back end and type the,
Speaker 1: I don't know, slash donor.
Speaker 1: what that kind of stuff. I was like, OK. Then
Speaker 1: I had to try and see whether I could copy
Speaker 1: someone else's work. So it looked exactly like someone else's work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not easy, not easy to make this sort of change,
Speaker 1: which is why today we invited Jane Tan, a former
Speaker 1: flight attendant who's now a software engineer at Tommy Technologies
Speaker 1: to find out how she made that switch and how she,
Speaker 1: most importantly is the interview to get the job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure many people want to know.
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me. Jane,
Speaker 1: as Gerald mentioned earlier, you were flying for 5 years.
Speaker 1: Tell us a bit more about why did you decide
Speaker 1: to make that switch to go into the tech
Speaker 1: world?
Speaker 2: Well, for me personally, after flying for 5 years, I
Speaker 2: began to feel very stagnant. My parents were also getting older.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to spend more time with my loved ones.
Speaker 2: I have a dog that was getting older too.
Speaker 2: The constant travel meant that I was away more than
Speaker 2: I was home. I realized that I need to change
Speaker 2: not just for my career, but also for my personal life.
Speaker 1: So why did you choose to fly
Speaker 1: in the first place? You wanted to see the world,
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: That was part of the reason, but mainly I sort
Speaker 2: of fell into it because I accompanied my friend for
Speaker 2: the interview.
Speaker 1: No way. So you got the job?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, she didn't. So
Speaker 1: you accompanied her for the job interview.
Speaker 1: She didn't get the job and you got the job. OK, look,
Speaker 1: just spoiler alert, this is not the first time she
Speaker 1: has spoiled an interview for somebody else, OK? Because later
Speaker 1: on in the podcast, as we were here, she aced
Speaker 1: another job interview that other people couldn't get. We'll get
Speaker 1: to that later on. Friends of Jane, beware. Yeah, be careful.
Speaker 1: Don't go with her to an interview. So you decided
Speaker 1: with all these different factors to shift and decided that
Speaker 1: it's time to stay grounded, pun intended, right? Yeah, when
Speaker 1: you were on the job as a flight attendant.
Speaker 1: you also picked up certain skills. I would like to
Speaker 1: hear from you, what sort of skills do you think
Speaker 1: were skills that you picked up on the job as
Speaker 1: a flight attendant that you think were transferable for your
Speaker 1: next pivot.
Speaker 2: From my experience as a flight attendant, I picked up
Speaker 2: some communication skills because they train us on how to
Speaker 2: handle different passenger situations, how to handle conflicts on board.
Speaker 2: And so when I decided to transit into tech,
Speaker 2: I sort of positioned myself as someone with stronger communication
Speaker 2: skills because I realized that in such a highly technical industry,
Speaker 2: many people were able to show their technical skills, but
Speaker 2: not so much their interpersonal skills. So I did some
Speaker 2: research on the industry while job searching and noticed the
Speaker 2: companies were saying that to have
Speaker 2: A very good software engineer, you don't just want to
Speaker 2: look for someone with good technical skills. You need to
Speaker 2: have someone with good communication and interpersonal skills as well,
Speaker 2: so that you can communicate the technical aspects to technical
Speaker 2: and non-technical stakeholders. I was able to explain technical concepts
Speaker 2: very well in layman terms to, for example, the hiring
Speaker 2: manager who's not technical or the HR person.
Speaker 2: Or clients, what kind of features do they want and
Speaker 2: translate that into code for the team, that's a skill
Speaker 2: that I brought over.
Speaker 1: As a flight attendant, you were attending to the needs
Speaker 1: of your passengers and now your passengers have changed and
Speaker 1: they are basically your clients who need some software, so
Speaker 1: they're asking you, can you write some software and you're
Speaker 1: able to pick that up and build a relationship with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So all the jobs in the world that you could choose,
Speaker 1: why did you choose the tech industry? Did you have
Speaker 1: any prior knowledge of how to code?
Speaker 1: before.
Speaker 2: I did a bit of HTML. Does blogspot count?
Speaker 1: Oh you colors.
Speaker 2: Other than that, I do not have any prior knowledge.
Speaker 2: I knew that even if it wasn't tech, I had
Speaker 2: to step out of the flying life. Tech seemed to
Speaker 2: be something that I could learn on the site while flying.
Speaker 2: So I started to dabble in code with some short
Speaker 2: external courses online. I realized.
Speaker 2: that coding wasn't just about creating something, solving problems and
Speaker 2: more than that, it was a learning journey. Every single
Speaker 2: time I was able to debug a very complicated technical problem,
Speaker 2: I just felt a sense of satisfaction, after hours of
Speaker 2: pondering over the same problem I was able to solve it.
Speaker 2: That felt really exciting to me. I was learning something
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 2: And it felt like, OK, it's not just a stepping
Speaker 2: stone for me. I want to do this for my career.
Speaker 2: So I decided to take the lead and go into this.
Speaker 1: So that's very interesting because you were doing this outside
Speaker 1: of your regular hours, but then knowing the work that
Speaker 1: you had, it can be quite punishing on the body
Speaker 1: because you're working in different time zones and
Speaker 1: The last thing you want is to come back and
Speaker 1: sit in front of a computer and do this and
Speaker 1: like you say, hours of doing this, you feel a
Speaker 1: sense of achievement after you debug something. I would probably
Speaker 1: quit after 30 minutes. I think 30 minutes is the
Speaker 1: max for my attention span.
Speaker 2: I mean, for flying the same destinations, I've reached a
Speaker 2: certain point where I'd rather just stay in the hotel.
Speaker 2: So I just took the time to try this out.
Speaker 1: Jane puts it right, like dabbling, try. I think these
Speaker 1: are words right, that you may think that it's nothing,
Speaker 1: but actually what you're doing is you're learning and you're
Speaker 1: actually exploring, you're testing the limits, the boundaries of how
Speaker 1: much of this interest should I pursue further. Many of
Speaker 1: us when we work, we are so busy with our
Speaker 1: work life, right? We don't have time to dabble or
Speaker 1: to try and that's the reason why career development doesn't
Speaker 1: really take place. You're always in that zone.
Speaker 1: But what Jane really did well is in her non-flying times,
Speaker 1: she's just trying out things. I think that is really
Speaker 1: one critical step as part of her knowing that this
Speaker 1: is the thing for her. But exactly when did you
Speaker 1: realize that this was the right move for you? So,
Speaker 1: from dabbling to actually making this a full-time career, how
Speaker 1: did you know that
Speaker 2: this is it? Because when I reached the 5 year mark,
Speaker 2: SIA has this thing called the 5 year gratuity. So
Speaker 2: it's a lump sum of bonus. I looked at my
Speaker 2: financials and I decided that, yeah, I want to do
Speaker 2: the switch now. I'm very sure of where I want
Speaker 2: to go into, so I knew that I needed to
Speaker 2: take steps to formalize my learning, not just doing it
Speaker 2: on the side. So I gathered about 2 years' worth.
Speaker 2: I know that I can sustain for more than 2
Speaker 2: years and then I quit my job.
Speaker 2: So, I came across the tech immersion and placement program, TIPP.
Speaker 2: They offered various academies including General Assembly, subsidies for students,
Speaker 2: a certain percentage. So you pay a small percentage and
Speaker 2: you go into the course and they will help you.
Speaker 2: With the tech transition,
Speaker 1: including helping you to find placement after you graduate.
Speaker 2: They do not help you find placement per se, but
Speaker 2: they do guide you with their career cultures.
Speaker 1: At any point did you feel that you had a
Speaker 1: disadvantage because you are starting late. Would you ever compare
Speaker 1: yourself with people who maybe they have studied this for
Speaker 1: many years? Did you ever feel that you would never
Speaker 1: be able to catch
Speaker 1: up?
Speaker 2: Of course, there were many moments where I felt like that.
Speaker 2: But before the course, I did preempt that I will
Speaker 2: have a more difficult time understanding concepts that might be
Speaker 2: intuitive to other people who already have a more STEM background.
Speaker 2: My degree is business and management, so I really don't
Speaker 2: have the background. So what I did was previously, I
Speaker 2: dabbled a little bit at the site. I took up
Speaker 2: short courses to reinforce what I've learned before I went
Speaker 2: into the course. For General Assembly, they also
Speaker 2: have this short course called pre-work where you have to
Speaker 2: clear the pre-work before you officially enroll into the course.
Speaker 2: So I took that more seriously because I know that
Speaker 2: I needed to. I always go back and revisit concepts
Speaker 2: that I wasn't sure of. I make sure that I
Speaker 2: really understood it properly before I moved on. The deadlines
Speaker 2: are very tight and the pace was extremely relentless. We
Speaker 2: barely had any break and about halfway through.
Speaker 2: Through the course, I found myself really struggling. I couldn't
Speaker 2: catch up to the pace of learning we're going at,
Speaker 2: because some of them had engineering backgrounds. I would say
Speaker 2: almost half my class. I even admitted to my instructor
Speaker 2: that I wasn't able to complete my homework on time,
Speaker 2: but fortunately for me, my instructor was super understanding. He
Speaker 2: pushed the deadline back for me and gave a lot
Speaker 2: of valuable feedback on my code, on my project.
Speaker 2: How to proceed from where I'm at, and eventually I
Speaker 2: came out the other side. I felt a very great
Speaker 2: sense of achievement because it was so tough.
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, Jane, at that point where
Speaker 1: you felt like you were already left very far behind,
Speaker 1: did the thought of just giving up ever cross your mind?
Speaker 1: And if not, what made you
Speaker 1: keep going?
Speaker 2: Oh, it didn't cross my mind because I had quit
Speaker 2: my job. Oh, so it's all committed to it. So
Speaker 2: I told myself if I'm able to get a tech job.
Speaker 2: So words and good for me. Otherwise, coding is a
Speaker 2: very important skill in today's world and I could do
Speaker 2: my own business, I could set up my own websites,
Speaker 2: I could freelance. When I pick up coding, it's not
Speaker 2: necessarily I have to go into a software engineering role.
Speaker 2: There are other tech adjacent roles as well, tech sales,
Speaker 2: product management, many things actually
Speaker 1: failing was not an option for her. I think she
Speaker 1: can see that there's an attitude of very determined, very resilient, you.
Speaker 1: Your money and you make sure that as you got in,
Speaker 1: you want to get something out of this, right? And
Speaker 1: I like how she mentioned also, at the end, she
Speaker 1: might not be a software engineer, but she could do
Speaker 1: other things. I think the adjacent parts, starting to connect
Speaker 1: back with your degree in business management, you said, I'll
Speaker 1: maybe do my own business, tech sales, yeah, which is
Speaker 1: all soft skills that you have already clocked under your
Speaker 1: career experience of 5 years. And we understand that during
Speaker 1: one of your technical interviews, you were just a bootcamp graduate, right?
Speaker 1: You had to solve questions that were posed to you.
Speaker 1: In fact, the interviewer was surprised that you managed to
Speaker 1: solve questions that stumped some candidates who had a computer
Speaker 1: science degree. I'm interested to know, how did you actually
Speaker 1: solve a problem that people with that technical knowledge couldn't
Speaker 1: do?
Speaker 2: Because people with computer science degrees, they study this subject
Speaker 2: for 4 years, right? They don't study the full coding
Speaker 2: part for 4 years. They do study theory and many
Speaker 2: other things to foster.
Speaker 2: Some background understanding. OK. But for me, we focus all
Speaker 2: our time on purely web development and clearing technical interviews.
Speaker 2: So in that sense, we did have some advantage. Actually,
Speaker 2: I did get the offer for that company and it
Speaker 2: was my very first offer that I scored. I was
Speaker 2: very happy, but when I went home and thought about it,
Speaker 2: it seemed like a fluke. I just got lucky and
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I solved it on my own.
Speaker 2: So I was feeling a bit of an imposter.
Speaker 2: Syndrome and I spoke to my family about it. I
Speaker 2: was telling my brother that I just got lucky and
Speaker 2: my brother was telling me, but you are the one
Speaker 2: that practiced the question. When you had the opportunity to
Speaker 2: practice it, you practiced it, so how can it be luck?
Speaker 2: So I think it's very important to practice these technical
Speaker 2: skills as well, in addition to other soft skills in interviews.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: think this is really, if I take this advice from
Speaker 1: Jane and extrapolate it a bit larger, it applies to
Speaker 1: many things we do actually, right, when we are thinking
Speaker 1: of changing or learning something.
Speaker 1: There's always going to be a lot of new challenges.
Speaker 1: We have to keep learning, keep doing something different. All
Speaker 1: these little bits, they add up to what we actually know,
Speaker 1: but most of the time people tend to avoid challenges,
Speaker 1: they want to be comfortable. True. But having gone through
Speaker 1: what you've gone through, right, how realistic do you think
Speaker 1: it will be for people who aspire to be in
Speaker 1: your situation? Because I think the last thing we want
Speaker 1: is to make people think that it's so easy to
Speaker 1: get it right. Anybody can do this hard pivot. What
Speaker 1: would you say are some tips you would give to
Speaker 1: somebody who's thinking of being in your position? I
Speaker 2: mean, I am an average person, right? I'm not someone special.
Speaker 2: I do not have prior knowledge and even when in
Speaker 2: primary secondary school,
Speaker 2: I don't like science, I don't like math, I prefer
Speaker 2: writing essays over solving for acts. So if you are
Speaker 2: going to ask me, I feel that anybody can do it,
Speaker 2: but whether to be able to successfully transit into tech,
Speaker 2: I think it takes a lot of determination, it takes
Speaker 2: a lot of courage to step out of your current
Speaker 2: role and you need to like what you are going into.
Speaker 2: One of the biggest things to consider would be to
Speaker 2: sort out your financials first because a career transition is
Speaker 2: already very stressful. You don't need financial pressure on top
Speaker 2: of that. So there isn't a one size fits all
Speaker 2: savings amount that I can recommend, but it depends on
Speaker 2: everyone's lifestyle, everyone's needs, and another important factor is being
Speaker 2: honest with yourself about your career goals.
Speaker 2: Money is undoubtedly a strong motivator in why people want
Speaker 2: to transit, but beyond financial gain, it's not very sustainable
Speaker 2: if money is the sole factor. For me, I prioritize
Speaker 2: more time with my loved ones and enjoy the process
Speaker 2: of continuous learning. It is also crucial to research the
Speaker 2: industry before you look into the career path that you
Speaker 2: want to go into.
Speaker 2: Look at their job postings, look at what kind of
Speaker 2: skills they are looking for in those job postings and
Speaker 2: see if there's a viable path towards attaining these skills
Speaker 2: rather than chasing those hype skills. They might fit within
Speaker 2: a year or two, but just focus on long term stability.
Speaker 2: I did take a look at government reports on jobs
Speaker 2: in demand and make sure that this
Speaker 1: career
Speaker 2: is one of it.
Speaker 1: In demand until you retire.
Speaker 2: And last but not least, I think if you're coming
Speaker 2: from a non-STEM background like me, just take more time
Speaker 2: before you go into the course to learn things so
Speaker 2: that when it gets rigorous, when it gets intense, you
Speaker 2: will not be completely lost.
Speaker 1: So now that you have gotten the job, are there
Speaker 1: days where you have struggled?
Speaker 2: Some days I ask myself, am I really a software engineer?
Speaker 2: In my team, I'm still considered a very junior software engineer.
Speaker 2: I have my seniors ahead of me, I have my
Speaker 2: techni ahead of me and also not many women, right?
Speaker 2: Not many. When I look at the code that they
Speaker 2: are writing, sometimes I really don't understand. It makes me
Speaker 2: feel like, oh, we are all software engineers. How come
Speaker 2: I don't understand what you're writing? Am I really a
Speaker 2: software engineer? So
Speaker 1: how do you overcome that when these thoughts come?
Speaker 2: You cannot be afraid to ask questions.
Speaker 2: No matter how simple you might think it is, just
Speaker 2: go ahead and ask the person. Actually, what is this about?
Speaker 2: Eventually you will be able to get to the point
Speaker 2: where you will still have impostor syndrome, but it will
Speaker 2: slowly get better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of us, we are so
Speaker 1: worried about asking questions. We are afraid that our questions
Speaker 1: make us look like we don't know, right? But yet
Speaker 1: asking questions is like the door to find an answer,
Speaker 1: it's a door to learn something new.
Speaker 1: And if you never ask that question, you will come
Speaker 1: out from the situation not knowing what really happened. So
Speaker 1: I really admire what Jane is giving us today, like
Speaker 1: a lot of traits of determination, resilience, learnability, very high learnability,
Speaker 1: and I think these are the preconditions actually for someone
Speaker 1: to make a career switch. It's not just about going
Speaker 1: to a job that has high in demand, not just
Speaker 1: about that, but also like, can you sustain can you
Speaker 1: last that transition. So thank you so much, Jane, for
Speaker 1: coming on and sharing
Speaker 1: your story.
Speaker 2: Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we
Speaker 1: tackle a question you have sent us. Our listener acquaint
Speaker 1: sent one to us and we're going to talk about it.
Speaker 1: He's in a close-knit team of about 15 people and
Speaker 1: they're in the banking sector. One of the senior managers
Speaker 1: came across an opportunity in a competing firm and has
Speaker 1: floated the idea to 5 people in the team, including Queen.
Speaker 1: Now no one has a non-compete or a non-solicitation clause
Speaker 1: in their contract, but they're concerned about the fallout when
Speaker 1: they announced their resignation. Before we could record this AMA,
Speaker 1: Quin wrote back to me that one of the directors
Speaker 1: that he wants to work with pulled out saying that
Speaker 1: he prefers the stability of the current job but may
Speaker 1: move in 9 months' time. Quinn is not sure what
Speaker 1: to do now. Should he move? And if he does,
Speaker 1: will this mass exodus look bad for all of them.
Speaker 1: I think Tiffany, this is a very interesting situation. 15
Speaker 1: people are moving together. Yeah, 15 people in the team,
Speaker 1: but about 5 people are going to move, so a
Speaker 1: third of them are going to move. So it's like
Speaker 1: the first batch, first batch. Who knows, there may be more.
Speaker 1: I think just based on this situation, right, my suspicion
Speaker 1: is Quinn may be seeing things from perhaps a roast.
Speaker 1: The lens of a happy family working together, but I
Speaker 1: think in reality it really doesn't work that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Usually most of big groups of people moving across competing firms,
Speaker 1: they don't really happen. When they break it up into
Speaker 1: like batches of the 1st 5, sometimes there's a reason
Speaker 1: why they break you into the batches, right? Certain things
Speaker 1: are maybe
Speaker 1: The first group of people are the ones that they really,
Speaker 1: really want, and then after that, things may change. It's
Speaker 1: like nice to have, but then I feel bad that
Speaker 1: we didn't bring you across. So we kind of floated
Speaker 1: the idea as well. Yeah, so that's what I mean
Speaker 1: by the rose-tinted lenses. Usually the higher, maybe they prefer
Speaker 1: certain employees and then they want them to come as
Speaker 1: the first batch. The rest is like see how. OK.
Speaker 1: I think also when
Speaker 1: Moves are being discussed, right? It's not just the demand
Speaker 1: side that may change, but it's also even on the
Speaker 1: employee side, the supply side because they are in different
Speaker 1: life stages, different tenure in the company. Some of them
Speaker 1: might feel that, OK, if some people in my team
Speaker 1: move on, I have opportunities. Oh yes, that's true. If
Speaker 1: I stay on, the loyalty may be rewarded. I be
Speaker 1: able to progress further.
Speaker 1: It's a gap, you see. So it's not realistic to
Speaker 1: say everybody will move together for the same thing. I
Speaker 1: think the sound of it at the start sounds very
Speaker 1: good because it sounds like very spartan moment, like we
Speaker 1: are going to go and then everybody is like move,
Speaker 1: charge that kind of stuff, but you're right because there
Speaker 1: might be people who are let's say parents or who
Speaker 1: have loans and they might go.
Speaker 1: You know, I would prefer the stability, like one of
Speaker 1: the directors that he mentioned, right, would prefer the stability
Speaker 1: and I think when he said I might move in
Speaker 1: 9 months' time, I think that person is also sussing
Speaker 1: out because what if things change within the current company
Speaker 1: if he gets a promotion like you say, he might
Speaker 1: not move or if the company decides, OK, this is
Speaker 1: not very, yeah, there's now double bootload, we are not
Speaker 1: going to increase headcount, then maybe he will move. But
Speaker 1: whatever is the case.
Speaker 1: There are people who want the stability. They don't really
Speaker 1: want the lure of going to something that is new,
Speaker 1: something that pays well now, because they want something that
Speaker 1: it's like bird in hand, right? You have the bird
Speaker 1: in hand. Why do I want to shake my own foundation.
Speaker 1: So you're right, I think maybe what Quin can do
Speaker 1: is to think where is he at at this point
Speaker 1: in his career. Does he need the stability or
Speaker 1: Does he want to try something different? So move not
Speaker 1: because it's like a spartan moment, but you know, do
Speaker 1: it because he wants to. I mean, would you say
Speaker 1: that would be your advice as a career counselor? Exactly.
Speaker 1: I think when we take ownership of our own career,
Speaker 1: we think for ourselves and not just rely on other
Speaker 1: people and what they are doing. It puts the ownership
Speaker 1: of career into our own hands and we are more
Speaker 1: convinced and convicted, committed towards how we want our career
Speaker 1: to move forward. I mean, just imagine, right, if today
Speaker 1: Quin makes a move across and then he realizes that
Speaker 1: actually the grass is not greener on the other side.
Speaker 1: Then where do you put that blame? Do you blame
Speaker 1: that because everybody went, so that's why I also followed on,
Speaker 1: and it's not working out for me, but it's working
Speaker 1: out for everybody else. I think it's important to think
Speaker 1: for yourself so that you have the ownership.
Speaker 1: Good thing is work relationships can progress into friendships outside
Speaker 1: of work. So the relationships that Queen, you built up
Speaker 1: with your 14 other people on the team, it will
Speaker 1: last past the companies that you are in, no matter
Speaker 1: where you are at. So continue to build that into
Speaker 1: a friendship, perhaps then you won't miss them that much. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Now Quaint, I hope our conversation has given you some
Speaker 1: clarity on what to do. Let us know what you decide.
Speaker 1: We're really very curious. If like Quint you have a
Speaker 1: work-related question, do write into us. We're at CNA podcasts
Speaker 1: at Medcorp.com.sg. You can also find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: and YouTube.
Speaker 1: The team behind the Work It podcast is Christina Robert,
Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Juani Johari and Sai Ye Win. Sound mixing
Speaker 1: by Carrie Lim, video by Hanida Amin. I'm Gry and
Speaker 1: I'm Tiffany. Here's wishing you a good work week ahead.