WEBVTT - Making the career pivot from flying to coding 0:00:03.069 --> 0:00:05.300 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:09.810 --> 0:00:13.100 Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. Now, 0:00:13.289 --> 0:00:17.729 I've been in journalism ever since I graduated from school. Yes, 0:00:17.969 --> 0:00:21.969 I've worked for several news organizations, but I've never stepped 0:00:21.969 --> 0:00:25.010 outside of this field. So I'm always interested to meet 0:00:25.010 --> 0:00:28.569 people who do a hard pivot with their careers. Gerald, 0:00:28.610 --> 0:00:31.329 what's the biggest career switch you've ever heard of? I 0:00:31.329 --> 0:00:35.009 think in my experience, big career switches are not very common. 0:00:35.203 --> 0:00:37.784 Yeah, just minor ones, right? Yeah, you see the smaller 0:00:37.784 --> 0:00:41.883 adjacent or career pivots, like for example, from social worker, 0:00:41.914 --> 0:00:44.553 you may become a counselor, but I did recently meet 0:00:44.554 --> 0:00:48.194 someone who made a larger career switch from banking to 0:00:48.194 --> 0:00:52.754 diplomatic foreign affairs. Oh wow, that's really quite different because 0:00:52.754 --> 0:00:55.754 different skill sets, right? To make this big switch, we 0:00:55.754 --> 0:00:58.923 really need to find what's transferable across that person's experience. 0:00:59.153 --> 0:01:00.633 One of the hardest career switches. 0:01:00.748 --> 0:01:03.358 I can think of is going from one where you 0:01:03.358 --> 0:01:07.818 pick up generalized skills to a job that requires technical know-how. 0:01:08.297 --> 0:01:10.938 For example, I don't think I can survive an interview 0:01:10.938 --> 0:01:12.847 for a tech job. That is something that I have 0:01:12.847 --> 0:01:16.047 zero skills in like coding. I don't know. I mean, 0:01:16.297 --> 0:01:19.377 have you? Yeah, so I've tried coding in HTML in 0:01:19.377 --> 0:01:22.498 school before and I failed that subject because the minute 0:01:22.498 --> 0:01:24.807 the teacher say, go into the back end and type the, 0:01:24.818 --> 0:01:26.157 I don't know, slash donor. 0:01:26.291 --> 0:01:29.232 what that kind of stuff. I was like, OK. Then 0:01:29.232 --> 0:01:31.722 I had to try and see whether I could copy 0:01:31.722 --> 0:01:35.081 someone else's work. So it looked exactly like someone else's work. Yeah, 0:01:35.092 --> 0:01:37.592 it's not easy, not easy to make this sort of change, 0:01:37.762 --> 0:01:40.161 which is why today we invited Jane Tan, a former 0:01:40.162 --> 0:01:44.152 flight attendant who's now a software engineer at Tommy Technologies 0:01:44.152 --> 0:01:47.491 to find out how she made that switch and how she, 0:01:47.522 --> 0:01:50.122 most importantly is the interview to get the job. Yeah, 0:01:50.202 --> 0:01:51.361 I'm sure many people want to know. 0:01:51.846 --> 0:01:53.746 Hi, thank you for having me. Jane, 0:01:53.825 --> 0:01:57.456 as Gerald mentioned earlier, you were flying for 5 years. 0:01:57.746 --> 0:02:00.106 Tell us a bit more about why did you decide 0:02:00.106 --> 0:02:02.865 to make that switch to go into the tech 0:02:02.865 --> 0:02:03.255 world? 0:02:03.416 --> 0:02:07.625 Well, for me personally, after flying for 5 years, I 0:02:07.625 --> 0:02:12.335 began to feel very stagnant. My parents were also getting older. 0:02:12.505 --> 0:02:15.106 I just wanted to spend more time with my loved ones. 0:02:15.266 --> 0:02:17.225 I have a dog that was getting older too. 0:02:17.610 --> 0:02:21.179 The constant travel meant that I was away more than 0:02:21.179 --> 0:02:23.978 I was home. I realized that I need to change 0:02:23.979 --> 0:02:26.520 not just for my career, but also for my personal life. 0:02:26.619 --> 0:02:27.660 So why did you choose to fly 0:02:27.660 --> 0:02:29.769 in the first place? You wanted to see the world, 0:02:29.860 --> 0:02:30.330 I guess. 0:02:31.059 --> 0:02:34.460 That was part of the reason, but mainly I sort 0:02:34.460 --> 0:02:37.380 of fell into it because I accompanied my friend for 0:02:37.380 --> 0:02:38.008 the interview. 0:02:38.139 --> 0:02:40.630 No way. So you got the job? 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:42.660 Unfortunately, she didn't. So 0:02:42.660 --> 0:02:44.418 you accompanied her for the job interview. 0:02:44.623 --> 0:02:46.962 She didn't get the job and you got the job. OK, look, 0:02:47.132 --> 0:02:49.373 just spoiler alert, this is not the first time she 0:02:49.373 --> 0:02:52.332 has spoiled an interview for somebody else, OK? Because later 0:02:52.332 --> 0:02:55.252 on in the podcast, as we were here, she aced 0:02:55.252 --> 0:02:57.813 another job interview that other people couldn't get. We'll get 0:02:57.813 --> 0:03:00.623 to that later on. Friends of Jane, beware. Yeah, be careful. 0:03:00.733 --> 0:03:03.453 Don't go with her to an interview. So you decided 0:03:03.453 --> 0:03:06.012 with all these different factors to shift and decided that 0:03:06.013 --> 0:03:09.732 it's time to stay grounded, pun intended, right? Yeah, when 0:03:09.733 --> 0:03:11.492 you were on the job as a flight attendant. 0:03:11.845 --> 0:03:14.526 you also picked up certain skills. I would like to 0:03:14.526 --> 0:03:16.845 hear from you, what sort of skills do you think 0:03:16.845 --> 0:03:18.365 were skills that you picked up on the job as 0:03:18.365 --> 0:03:21.606 a flight attendant that you think were transferable for your 0:03:21.606 --> 0:03:22.565 next pivot. 0:03:22.686 --> 0:03:26.085 From my experience as a flight attendant, I picked up 0:03:26.085 --> 0:03:30.356 some communication skills because they train us on how to 0:03:30.356 --> 0:03:34.755 handle different passenger situations, how to handle conflicts on board. 0:03:35.085 --> 0:03:38.555 And so when I decided to transit into tech, 0:03:38.990 --> 0:03:43.570 I sort of positioned myself as someone with stronger communication 0:03:43.570 --> 0:03:48.039 skills because I realized that in such a highly technical industry, 0:03:48.210 --> 0:03:52.770 many people were able to show their technical skills, but 0:03:52.770 --> 0:03:57.080 not so much their interpersonal skills. So I did some 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.770 research on the industry while job searching and noticed the 0:04:00.770 --> 0:04:03.270 companies were saying that to have 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.470 A very good software engineer, you don't just want to 0:04:06.470 --> 0:04:09.110 look for someone with good technical skills. You need to 0:04:09.110 --> 0:04:12.750 have someone with good communication and interpersonal skills as well, 0:04:12.949 --> 0:04:16.178 so that you can communicate the technical aspects to technical 0:04:16.178 --> 0:04:21.230 and non-technical stakeholders. I was able to explain technical concepts 0:04:21.230 --> 0:04:25.070 very well in layman terms to, for example, the hiring 0:04:25.070 --> 0:04:27.549 manager who's not technical or the HR person. 0:04:28.010 --> 0:04:31.630 Or clients, what kind of features do they want and 0:04:31.630 --> 0:04:34.868 translate that into code for the team, that's a skill 0:04:34.869 --> 0:04:35.980 that I brought over. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.040 As a flight attendant, you were attending to the needs 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.000 of your passengers and now your passengers have changed and 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.040 they are basically your clients who need some software, so 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.040 they're asking you, can you write some software and you're 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.660 able to pick that up and build a relationship with them. Yeah. 0:04:49.928 --> 0:04:52.829 So all the jobs in the world that you could choose, 0:04:53.238 --> 0:04:56.880 why did you choose the tech industry? Did you have 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.350 any prior knowledge of how to code? 0:05:01.070 --> 0:05:01.269 before. 0:05:01.309 --> 0:05:04.059 I did a bit of HTML. Does blogspot count? 0:05:04.230 --> 0:05:06.059 Oh you colors. 0:05:06.230 --> 0:05:09.549 Other than that, I do not have any prior knowledge. 0:05:10.109 --> 0:05:12.910 I knew that even if it wasn't tech, I had 0:05:12.910 --> 0:05:15.589 to step out of the flying life. Tech seemed to 0:05:15.589 --> 0:05:18.500 be something that I could learn on the site while flying. 0:05:19.428 --> 0:05:22.540 So I started to dabble in code with some short 0:05:22.540 --> 0:05:25.070 external courses online. I realized. 0:05:25.149 --> 0:05:30.859 that coding wasn't just about creating something, solving problems and 0:05:30.859 --> 0:05:34.500 more than that, it was a learning journey. Every single 0:05:34.500 --> 0:05:39.140 time I was able to debug a very complicated technical problem, 0:05:39.299 --> 0:05:42.779 I just felt a sense of satisfaction, after hours of 0:05:42.779 --> 0:05:45.369 pondering over the same problem I was able to solve it. 0:05:45.700 --> 0:05:48.738 That felt really exciting to me. I was learning something 0:05:48.738 --> 0:05:49.420 all the time. 0:05:49.779 --> 0:05:52.149 And it felt like, OK, it's not just a stepping 0:05:52.149 --> 0:05:54.510 stone for me. I want to do this for my career. 0:05:55.190 --> 0:05:57.899 So I decided to take the lead and go into this. 0:05:58.019 --> 0:06:00.760 So that's very interesting because you were doing this outside 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:05.029 of your regular hours, but then knowing the work that 0:06:05.029 --> 0:06:07.279 you had, it can be quite punishing on the body 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.470 because you're working in different time zones and 0:06:09.738 --> 0:06:11.260 The last thing you want is to come back and 0:06:11.260 --> 0:06:13.469 sit in front of a computer and do this and 0:06:13.470 --> 0:06:15.779 like you say, hours of doing this, you feel a 0:06:15.779 --> 0:06:17.979 sense of achievement after you debug something. I would probably 0:06:17.980 --> 0:06:20.779 quit after 30 minutes. I think 30 minutes is the 0:06:20.779 --> 0:06:22.208 max for my attention span. 0:06:22.769 --> 0:06:27.579 I mean, for flying the same destinations, I've reached a 0:06:27.579 --> 0:06:29.570 certain point where I'd rather just stay in the hotel. 0:06:30.100 --> 0:06:32.440 So I just took the time to try this out. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.660 Jane puts it right, like dabbling, try. I think these 0:06:36.660 --> 0:06:38.940 are words right, that you may think that it's nothing, 0:06:39.029 --> 0:06:41.260 but actually what you're doing is you're learning and you're 0:06:41.260 --> 0:06:45.390 actually exploring, you're testing the limits, the boundaries of how 0:06:45.390 --> 0:06:48.469 much of this interest should I pursue further. Many of 0:06:48.470 --> 0:06:50.109 us when we work, we are so busy with our 0:06:50.109 --> 0:06:52.200 work life, right? We don't have time to dabble or 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.589 to try and that's the reason why career development doesn't 0:06:54.589 --> 0:06:56.950 really take place. You're always in that zone. 0:06:57.238 --> 0:07:00.690 But what Jane really did well is in her non-flying times, 0:07:00.940 --> 0:07:03.609 she's just trying out things. I think that is really 0:07:03.820 --> 0:07:06.339 one critical step as part of her knowing that this 0:07:06.339 --> 0:07:08.820 is the thing for her. But exactly when did you 0:07:08.820 --> 0:07:11.130 realize that this was the right move for you? So, 0:07:11.380 --> 0:07:14.380 from dabbling to actually making this a full-time career, how 0:07:14.380 --> 0:07:15.179 did you know that 0:07:15.179 --> 0:07:17.260 this is it? Because when I reached the 5 year mark, 0:07:17.989 --> 0:07:21.149 SIA has this thing called the 5 year gratuity. So 0:07:21.149 --> 0:07:24.600 it's a lump sum of bonus. I looked at my 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.709 financials and I decided that, yeah, I want to do 0:07:27.709 --> 0:07:31.190 the switch now. I'm very sure of where I want 0:07:31.190 --> 0:07:33.309 to go into, so I knew that I needed to 0:07:33.309 --> 0:07:36.709 take steps to formalize my learning, not just doing it 0:07:36.709 --> 0:07:40.839 on the side. So I gathered about 2 years' worth. 0:07:40.910 --> 0:07:43.109 I know that I can sustain for more than 2 0:07:43.109 --> 0:07:45.029 years and then I quit my job. 0:07:45.489 --> 0:07:50.309 So, I came across the tech immersion and placement program, TIPP. 0:07:50.380 --> 0:07:55.540 They offered various academies including General Assembly, subsidies for students, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.179 a certain percentage. So you pay a small percentage and 0:08:00.179 --> 0:08:03.149 you go into the course and they will help you. 0:08:03.399 --> 0:08:05.070 With the tech transition, 0:08:05.239 --> 0:08:08.290 including helping you to find placement after you graduate. 0:08:08.359 --> 0:08:11.160 They do not help you find placement per se, but 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.359 they do guide you with their career cultures. 0:08:14.519 --> 0:08:16.320 At any point did you feel that you had a 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.829 disadvantage because you are starting late. Would you ever compare 0:08:19.829 --> 0:08:23.200 yourself with people who maybe they have studied this for 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.670 many years? Did you ever feel that you would never 0:08:25.670 --> 0:08:26.279 be able to catch 0:08:26.279 --> 0:08:26.549 up? 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.799 Of course, there were many moments where I felt like that. 0:08:30.279 --> 0:08:33.979 But before the course, I did preempt that I will 0:08:33.979 --> 0:08:37.020 have a more difficult time understanding concepts that might be 0:08:37.020 --> 0:08:40.250 intuitive to other people who already have a more STEM background. 0:08:40.539 --> 0:08:43.539 My degree is business and management, so I really don't 0:08:43.539 --> 0:08:47.179 have the background. So what I did was previously, I 0:08:47.179 --> 0:08:49.979 dabbled a little bit at the site. I took up 0:08:49.979 --> 0:08:53.460 short courses to reinforce what I've learned before I went 0:08:53.460 --> 0:08:56.400 into the course. For General Assembly, they also 0:08:56.447 --> 0:08:59.958 have this short course called pre-work where you have to 0:08:59.958 --> 0:09:03.937 clear the pre-work before you officially enroll into the course. 0:09:04.317 --> 0:09:06.768 So I took that more seriously because I know that 0:09:06.768 --> 0:09:11.038 I needed to. I always go back and revisit concepts 0:09:11.038 --> 0:09:13.117 that I wasn't sure of. I make sure that I 0:09:13.117 --> 0:09:16.638 really understood it properly before I moved on. The deadlines 0:09:16.638 --> 0:09:20.237 are very tight and the pace was extremely relentless. We 0:09:20.237 --> 0:09:22.528 barely had any break and about halfway through. 0:09:22.705 --> 0:09:26.574 Through the course, I found myself really struggling. I couldn't 0:09:26.575 --> 0:09:29.716 catch up to the pace of learning we're going at, 0:09:29.976 --> 0:09:32.575 because some of them had engineering backgrounds. I would say 0:09:32.575 --> 0:09:35.776 almost half my class. I even admitted to my instructor 0:09:35.776 --> 0:09:38.375 that I wasn't able to complete my homework on time, 0:09:38.856 --> 0:09:43.055 but fortunately for me, my instructor was super understanding. He 0:09:43.056 --> 0:09:45.895 pushed the deadline back for me and gave a lot 0:09:45.895 --> 0:09:48.856 of valuable feedback on my code, on my project. 0:09:49.104 --> 0:09:52.114 How to proceed from where I'm at, and eventually I 0:09:52.114 --> 0:09:54.233 came out the other side. I felt a very great 0:09:54.234 --> 0:09:55.994 sense of achievement because it was so tough. 0:09:56.354 --> 0:09:57.674 I want to ask you, Jane, at that point where 0:09:57.674 --> 0:10:00.103 you felt like you were already left very far behind, 0:10:00.273 --> 0:10:02.794 did the thought of just giving up ever cross your mind? 0:10:02.943 --> 0:10:04.914 And if not, what made you 0:10:04.914 --> 0:10:05.434 keep going? 0:10:05.573 --> 0:10:08.713 Oh, it didn't cross my mind because I had quit 0:10:08.713 --> 0:10:12.893 my job. Oh, so it's all committed to it. So 0:10:12.893 --> 0:10:14.963 I told myself if I'm able to get a tech job. 0:10:15.221 --> 0:10:18.530 So words and good for me. Otherwise, coding is a 0:10:18.530 --> 0:10:21.091 very important skill in today's world and I could do 0:10:21.091 --> 0:10:23.461 my own business, I could set up my own websites, 0:10:23.731 --> 0:10:27.211 I could freelance. When I pick up coding, it's not 0:10:27.211 --> 0:10:30.002 necessarily I have to go into a software engineering role. 0:10:30.372 --> 0:10:33.101 There are other tech adjacent roles as well, tech sales, 0:10:33.651 --> 0:10:36.052 product management, many things actually 0:10:36.052 --> 0:10:38.051 failing was not an option for her. I think she 0:10:38.052 --> 0:10:41.252 can see that there's an attitude of very determined, very resilient, you. 0:10:41.489 --> 0:10:44.539 Your money and you make sure that as you got in, 0:10:44.630 --> 0:10:46.150 you want to get something out of this, right? And 0:10:46.150 --> 0:10:47.869 I like how she mentioned also, at the end, she 0:10:47.869 --> 0:10:50.469 might not be a software engineer, but she could do 0:10:50.469 --> 0:10:53.309 other things. I think the adjacent parts, starting to connect 0:10:53.309 --> 0:10:55.679 back with your degree in business management, you said, I'll 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.150 maybe do my own business, tech sales, yeah, which is 0:10:58.150 --> 0:11:00.909 all soft skills that you have already clocked under your 0:11:00.909 --> 0:11:03.939 career experience of 5 years. And we understand that during 0:11:03.940 --> 0:11:07.630 one of your technical interviews, you were just a bootcamp graduate, right? 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.020 You had to solve questions that were posed to you. 0:11:11.210 --> 0:11:13.570 In fact, the interviewer was surprised that you managed to 0:11:13.570 --> 0:11:18.250 solve questions that stumped some candidates who had a computer 0:11:18.250 --> 0:11:21.739 science degree. I'm interested to know, how did you actually 0:11:21.739 --> 0:11:24.799 solve a problem that people with that technical knowledge couldn't 0:11:24.799 --> 0:11:25.130 do? 0:11:25.330 --> 0:11:28.209 Because people with computer science degrees, they study this subject 0:11:28.210 --> 0:11:32.489 for 4 years, right? They don't study the full coding 0:11:32.489 --> 0:11:35.530 part for 4 years. They do study theory and many 0:11:35.530 --> 0:11:36.770 other things to foster. 0:11:37.192 --> 0:11:41.403 Some background understanding. OK. But for me, we focus all 0:11:41.403 --> 0:11:45.572 our time on purely web development and clearing technical interviews. 0:11:46.033 --> 0:11:49.552 So in that sense, we did have some advantage. Actually, 0:11:49.672 --> 0:11:52.872 I did get the offer for that company and it 0:11:52.872 --> 0:11:55.312 was my very first offer that I scored. I was 0:11:55.312 --> 0:11:58.062 very happy, but when I went home and thought about it, 0:11:58.273 --> 0:12:01.192 it seemed like a fluke. I just got lucky and 0:12:01.192 --> 0:12:03.742 I didn't feel like I solved it on my own. 0:12:04.072 --> 0:12:05.752 So I was feeling a bit of an imposter. 0:12:05.905 --> 0:12:08.656 Syndrome and I spoke to my family about it. I 0:12:08.655 --> 0:12:10.815 was telling my brother that I just got lucky and 0:12:10.815 --> 0:12:13.255 my brother was telling me, but you are the one 0:12:13.255 --> 0:12:16.415 that practiced the question. When you had the opportunity to 0:12:16.416 --> 0:12:18.656 practice it, you practiced it, so how can it be luck? 0:12:19.255 --> 0:12:21.976 So I think it's very important to practice these technical 0:12:21.976 --> 0:12:25.564 skills as well, in addition to other soft skills in interviews. 0:12:25.815 --> 0:12:25.976 I 0:12:25.976 --> 0:12:28.655 think this is really, if I take this advice from 0:12:28.655 --> 0:12:31.175 Jane and extrapolate it a bit larger, it applies to 0:12:31.176 --> 0:12:33.385 many things we do actually, right, when we are thinking 0:12:33.385 --> 0:12:34.856 of changing or learning something. 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.429 There's always going to be a lot of new challenges. 0:12:37.510 --> 0:12:40.429 We have to keep learning, keep doing something different. All 0:12:40.429 --> 0:12:42.858 these little bits, they add up to what we actually know, 0:12:43.190 --> 0:12:45.140 but most of the time people tend to avoid challenges, 0:12:45.159 --> 0:12:47.830 they want to be comfortable. True. But having gone through 0:12:47.830 --> 0:12:50.669 what you've gone through, right, how realistic do you think 0:12:50.669 --> 0:12:53.270 it will be for people who aspire to be in 0:12:53.270 --> 0:12:55.669 your situation? Because I think the last thing we want 0:12:55.715 --> 0:12:57.825 is to make people think that it's so easy to 0:12:57.825 --> 0:13:00.385 get it right. Anybody can do this hard pivot. What 0:13:00.385 --> 0:13:03.343 would you say are some tips you would give to 0:13:03.344 --> 0:13:05.704 somebody who's thinking of being in your position? I 0:13:05.705 --> 0:13:09.544 mean, I am an average person, right? I'm not someone special. 0:13:09.625 --> 0:13:13.145 I do not have prior knowledge and even when in 0:13:13.145 --> 0:13:14.424 primary secondary school, 0:13:14.750 --> 0:13:17.260 I don't like science, I don't like math, I prefer 0:13:17.260 --> 0:13:21.179 writing essays over solving for acts. So if you are 0:13:21.179 --> 0:13:23.409 going to ask me, I feel that anybody can do it, 0:13:23.580 --> 0:13:27.950 but whether to be able to successfully transit into tech, 0:13:28.099 --> 0:13:30.340 I think it takes a lot of determination, it takes 0:13:30.340 --> 0:13:33.380 a lot of courage to step out of your current 0:13:33.380 --> 0:13:36.859 role and you need to like what you are going into. 0:13:37.409 --> 0:13:40.728 One of the biggest things to consider would be to 0:13:40.729 --> 0:13:45.729 sort out your financials first because a career transition is 0:13:45.729 --> 0:13:49.369 already very stressful. You don't need financial pressure on top 0:13:49.369 --> 0:13:53.439 of that. So there isn't a one size fits all 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.228 savings amount that I can recommend, but it depends on 0:13:57.229 --> 0:14:02.130 everyone's lifestyle, everyone's needs, and another important factor is being 0:14:02.130 --> 0:14:04.530 honest with yourself about your career goals. 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.900 Money is undoubtedly a strong motivator in why people want 0:14:08.900 --> 0:14:13.969 to transit, but beyond financial gain, it's not very sustainable 0:14:14.299 --> 0:14:17.819 if money is the sole factor. For me, I prioritize 0:14:17.820 --> 0:14:20.460 more time with my loved ones and enjoy the process 0:14:20.460 --> 0:14:25.059 of continuous learning. It is also crucial to research the 0:14:25.059 --> 0:14:28.059 industry before you look into the career path that you 0:14:28.059 --> 0:14:28.969 want to go into. 0:14:29.609 --> 0:14:32.469 Look at their job postings, look at what kind of 0:14:32.469 --> 0:14:35.520 skills they are looking for in those job postings and 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.200 see if there's a viable path towards attaining these skills 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.559 rather than chasing those hype skills. They might fit within 0:14:42.559 --> 0:14:46.109 a year or two, but just focus on long term stability. 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.440 I did take a look at government reports on jobs 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:52.200 in demand and make sure that this 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:52.659 career 0:14:52.659 --> 0:14:53.640 is one of it. 0:14:54.190 --> 0:14:56.609 In demand until you retire. 0:14:57.380 --> 0:15:00.340 And last but not least, I think if you're coming 0:15:00.340 --> 0:15:04.460 from a non-STEM background like me, just take more time 0:15:04.460 --> 0:15:07.460 before you go into the course to learn things so 0:15:07.460 --> 0:15:09.580 that when it gets rigorous, when it gets intense, you 0:15:09.580 --> 0:15:10.950 will not be completely lost. 0:15:11.500 --> 0:15:13.299 So now that you have gotten the job, are there 0:15:13.299 --> 0:15:15.049 days where you have struggled? 0:15:15.219 --> 0:15:18.570 Some days I ask myself, am I really a software engineer? 0:15:19.619 --> 0:15:22.890 In my team, I'm still considered a very junior software engineer. 0:15:22.940 --> 0:15:25.049 I have my seniors ahead of me, I have my 0:15:25.049 --> 0:15:27.750 techni ahead of me and also not many women, right? 0:15:28.260 --> 0:15:30.859 Not many. When I look at the code that they 0:15:30.859 --> 0:15:34.520 are writing, sometimes I really don't understand. It makes me 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.159 feel like, oh, we are all software engineers. How come 0:15:37.159 --> 0:15:39.739 I don't understand what you're writing? Am I really a 0:15:39.739 --> 0:15:41.219 software engineer? So 0:15:41.219 --> 0:15:43.030 how do you overcome that when these thoughts come? 0:15:43.179 --> 0:15:45.020 You cannot be afraid to ask questions. 0:15:45.414 --> 0:15:48.414 No matter how simple you might think it is, just 0:15:48.414 --> 0:15:51.974 go ahead and ask the person. Actually, what is this about? 0:15:52.205 --> 0:15:54.974 Eventually you will be able to get to the point 0:15:54.974 --> 0:15:58.335 where you will still have impostor syndrome, but it will 0:15:58.335 --> 0:15:59.215 slowly get better. 0:15:59.335 --> 0:16:01.304 Yeah, I think a lot of us, we are so 0:16:01.304 --> 0:16:03.854 worried about asking questions. We are afraid that our questions 0:16:03.854 --> 0:16:06.455 make us look like we don't know, right? But yet 0:16:06.455 --> 0:16:09.164 asking questions is like the door to find an answer, 0:16:09.395 --> 0:16:10.854 it's a door to learn something new. 0:16:11.179 --> 0:16:14.109 And if you never ask that question, you will come 0:16:14.109 --> 0:16:16.429 out from the situation not knowing what really happened. So 0:16:16.429 --> 0:16:18.909 I really admire what Jane is giving us today, like 0:16:18.909 --> 0:16:24.150 a lot of traits of determination, resilience, learnability, very high learnability, 0:16:24.190 --> 0:16:26.510 and I think these are the preconditions actually for someone 0:16:26.510 --> 0:16:29.630 to make a career switch. It's not just about going 0:16:29.630 --> 0:16:31.669 to a job that has high in demand, not just 0:16:31.669 --> 0:16:34.190 about that, but also like, can you sustain can you 0:16:34.190 --> 0:16:37.030 last that transition. So thank you so much, Jane, for 0:16:37.030 --> 0:16:38.030 coming on and sharing 0:16:38.030 --> 0:16:38.590 your story. 0:16:38.710 --> 0:16:40.020 Thank you for the opportunity. 0:16:44.190 --> 0:16:47.190 Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we 0:16:47.190 --> 0:16:51.109 tackle a question you have sent us. Our listener acquaint 0:16:51.109 --> 0:16:53.809 sent one to us and we're going to talk about it. 0:16:54.070 --> 0:16:57.150 He's in a close-knit team of about 15 people and 0:16:57.150 --> 0:17:00.109 they're in the banking sector. One of the senior managers 0:17:00.109 --> 0:17:03.270 came across an opportunity in a competing firm and has 0:17:03.270 --> 0:17:06.670 floated the idea to 5 people in the team, including Queen. 0:17:07.349 --> 0:17:10.709 Now no one has a non-compete or a non-solicitation clause 0:17:10.709 --> 0:17:14.630 in their contract, but they're concerned about the fallout when 0:17:14.630 --> 0:17:18.770 they announced their resignation. Before we could record this AMA, 0:17:18.989 --> 0:17:21.420 Quin wrote back to me that one of the directors 0:17:21.420 --> 0:17:24.589 that he wants to work with pulled out saying that 0:17:24.589 --> 0:17:27.349 he prefers the stability of the current job but may 0:17:27.349 --> 0:17:29.750 move in 9 months' time. Quinn is not sure what 0:17:29.750 --> 0:17:32.140 to do now. Should he move? And if he does, 0:17:32.310 --> 0:17:35.589 will this mass exodus look bad for all of them. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.900 I think Tiffany, this is a very interesting situation. 15 0:17:39.900 --> 0:17:42.339 people are moving together. Yeah, 15 people in the team, 0:17:42.420 --> 0:17:44.180 but about 5 people are going to move, so a 0:17:44.180 --> 0:17:45.339 third of them are going to move. So it's like 0:17:45.339 --> 0:17:48.060 the first batch, first batch. Who knows, there may be more. 0:17:48.459 --> 0:17:51.300 I think just based on this situation, right, my suspicion 0:17:51.300 --> 0:17:53.819 is Quinn may be seeing things from perhaps a roast. 0:17:53.989 --> 0:17:57.119 The lens of a happy family working together, but I 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.119 think in reality it really doesn't work that way. Yeah. 0:18:00.209 --> 0:18:03.839 Usually most of big groups of people moving across competing firms, 0:18:04.099 --> 0:18:06.369 they don't really happen. When they break it up into 0:18:06.369 --> 0:18:08.849 like batches of the 1st 5, sometimes there's a reason 0:18:08.849 --> 0:18:11.329 why they break you into the batches, right? Certain things 0:18:11.329 --> 0:18:12.129 are maybe 0:18:12.319 --> 0:18:13.939 The first group of people are the ones that they really, 0:18:13.949 --> 0:18:16.708 really want, and then after that, things may change. It's 0:18:16.709 --> 0:18:19.270 like nice to have, but then I feel bad that 0:18:19.270 --> 0:18:21.910 we didn't bring you across. So we kind of floated 0:18:21.910 --> 0:18:23.550 the idea as well. Yeah, so that's what I mean 0:18:23.550 --> 0:18:26.629 by the rose-tinted lenses. Usually the higher, maybe they prefer 0:18:26.630 --> 0:18:28.948 certain employees and then they want them to come as 0:18:28.949 --> 0:18:31.380 the first batch. The rest is like see how. OK. 0:18:31.510 --> 0:18:32.679 I think also when 0:18:32.865 --> 0:18:35.715 Moves are being discussed, right? It's not just the demand 0:18:35.715 --> 0:18:38.135 side that may change, but it's also even on the 0:18:38.135 --> 0:18:41.056 employee side, the supply side because they are in different 0:18:41.056 --> 0:18:44.135 life stages, different tenure in the company. Some of them 0:18:44.135 --> 0:18:46.375 might feel that, OK, if some people in my team 0:18:46.375 --> 0:18:49.535 move on, I have opportunities. Oh yes, that's true. If 0:18:49.536 --> 0:18:52.176 I stay on, the loyalty may be rewarded. I be 0:18:52.176 --> 0:18:53.186 able to progress further. 0:18:53.411 --> 0:18:56.161 It's a gap, you see. So it's not realistic to 0:18:56.161 --> 0:18:58.321 say everybody will move together for the same thing. I 0:18:58.321 --> 0:19:00.322 think the sound of it at the start sounds very 0:19:00.321 --> 0:19:03.362 good because it sounds like very spartan moment, like we 0:19:03.362 --> 0:19:06.621 are going to go and then everybody is like move, 0:19:06.802 --> 0:19:09.841 charge that kind of stuff, but you're right because there 0:19:09.842 --> 0:19:12.161 might be people who are let's say parents or who 0:19:12.161 --> 0:19:13.870 have loans and they might go. 0:19:14.239 --> 0:19:16.410 You know, I would prefer the stability, like one of 0:19:16.410 --> 0:19:18.989 the directors that he mentioned, right, would prefer the stability 0:19:18.989 --> 0:19:21.319 and I think when he said I might move in 0:19:21.319 --> 0:19:23.170