1 00:00:03,069 --> 00:00:05,300 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:09,810 --> 00:00:13,100 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. Now, 3 00:00:13,289 --> 00:00:17,729 Speaker 1: I've been in journalism ever since I graduated from school. Yes, 4 00:00:17,969 --> 00:00:21,969 Speaker 1: I've worked for several news organizations, but I've never stepped 5 00:00:21,969 --> 00:00:25,010 Speaker 1: outside of this field. So I'm always interested to meet 6 00:00:25,010 --> 00:00:28,569 Speaker 1: people who do a hard pivot with their careers. Gerald, 7 00:00:28,610 --> 00:00:31,329 Speaker 1: what's the biggest career switch you've ever heard of? I 8 00:00:31,329 --> 00:00:35,009 Speaker 1: think in my experience, big career switches are not very common. 9 00:00:35,203 --> 00:00:37,784 Speaker 1: Yeah, just minor ones, right? Yeah, you see the smaller 10 00:00:37,784 --> 00:00:41,883 Speaker 1: adjacent or career pivots, like for example, from social worker, 11 00:00:41,914 --> 00:00:44,553 Speaker 1: you may become a counselor, but I did recently meet 12 00:00:44,554 --> 00:00:48,194 Speaker 1: someone who made a larger career switch from banking to 13 00:00:48,194 --> 00:00:52,754 Speaker 1: diplomatic foreign affairs. Oh wow, that's really quite different because 14 00:00:52,754 --> 00:00:55,754 Speaker 1: different skill sets, right? To make this big switch, we 15 00:00:55,754 --> 00:00:58,923 Speaker 1: really need to find what's transferable across that person's experience. 16 00:00:59,153 --> 00:01:00,633 Speaker 1: One of the hardest career switches. 17 00:01:00,748 --> 00:01:03,358 Speaker 1: I can think of is going from one where you 18 00:01:03,358 --> 00:01:07,818 Speaker 1: pick up generalized skills to a job that requires technical know-how. 19 00:01:08,297 --> 00:01:10,938 Speaker 1: For example, I don't think I can survive an interview 20 00:01:10,938 --> 00:01:12,847 Speaker 1: for a tech job. That is something that I have 21 00:01:12,847 --> 00:01:16,047 Speaker 1: zero skills in like coding. I don't know. I mean, 22 00:01:16,297 --> 00:01:19,377 Speaker 1: have you? Yeah, so I've tried coding in HTML in 23 00:01:19,377 --> 00:01:22,498 Speaker 1: school before and I failed that subject because the minute 24 00:01:22,498 --> 00:01:24,807 Speaker 1: the teacher say, go into the back end and type the, 25 00:01:24,818 --> 00:01:26,157 Speaker 1: I don't know, slash donor. 26 00:01:26,291 --> 00:01:29,232 Speaker 1: what that kind of stuff. I was like, OK. Then 27 00:01:29,232 --> 00:01:31,722 Speaker 1: I had to try and see whether I could copy 28 00:01:31,722 --> 00:01:35,081 Speaker 1: someone else's work. So it looked exactly like someone else's work. Yeah, 29 00:01:35,092 --> 00:01:37,592 Speaker 1: it's not easy, not easy to make this sort of change, 30 00:01:37,762 --> 00:01:40,161 Speaker 1: which is why today we invited Jane Tan, a former 31 00:01:40,162 --> 00:01:44,152 Speaker 1: flight attendant who's now a software engineer at Tommy Technologies 32 00:01:44,152 --> 00:01:47,491 Speaker 1: to find out how she made that switch and how she, 33 00:01:47,522 --> 00:01:50,122 Speaker 1: most importantly is the interview to get the job. Yeah, 34 00:01:50,202 --> 00:01:51,361 Speaker 1: I'm sure many people want to know. 35 00:01:51,846 --> 00:01:53,746 Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me. Jane, 36 00:01:53,825 --> 00:01:57,456 Speaker 1: as Gerald mentioned earlier, you were flying for 5 years. 37 00:01:57,746 --> 00:02:00,106 Speaker 1: Tell us a bit more about why did you decide 38 00:02:00,106 --> 00:02:02,865 Speaker 1: to make that switch to go into the tech 39 00:02:02,865 --> 00:02:03,255 Speaker 1: world? 40 00:02:03,416 --> 00:02:07,625 Speaker 2: Well, for me personally, after flying for 5 years, I 41 00:02:07,625 --> 00:02:12,335 Speaker 2: began to feel very stagnant. My parents were also getting older. 42 00:02:12,505 --> 00:02:15,106 Speaker 2: I just wanted to spend more time with my loved ones. 43 00:02:15,266 --> 00:02:17,225 Speaker 2: I have a dog that was getting older too. 44 00:02:17,610 --> 00:02:21,179 Speaker 2: The constant travel meant that I was away more than 45 00:02:21,179 --> 00:02:23,978 Speaker 2: I was home. I realized that I need to change 46 00:02:23,979 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: not just for my career, but also for my personal life. 47 00:02:26,619 --> 00:02:27,660 Speaker 1: So why did you choose to fly 48 00:02:27,660 --> 00:02:29,769 Speaker 1: in the first place? You wanted to see the world, 49 00:02:29,860 --> 00:02:30,330 Speaker 1: I guess. 50 00:02:31,059 --> 00:02:34,460 Speaker 2: That was part of the reason, but mainly I sort 51 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:37,380 Speaker 2: of fell into it because I accompanied my friend for 52 00:02:37,380 --> 00:02:38,008 Speaker 2: the interview. 53 00:02:38,139 --> 00:02:40,630 Speaker 1: No way. So you got the job? 54 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,660 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, she didn't. So 55 00:02:42,660 --> 00:02:44,418 Speaker 1: you accompanied her for the job interview. 56 00:02:44,623 --> 00:02:46,962 Speaker 1: She didn't get the job and you got the job. OK, look, 57 00:02:47,132 --> 00:02:49,373 Speaker 1: just spoiler alert, this is not the first time she 58 00:02:49,373 --> 00:02:52,332 Speaker 1: has spoiled an interview for somebody else, OK? Because later 59 00:02:52,332 --> 00:02:55,252 Speaker 1: on in the podcast, as we were here, she aced 60 00:02:55,252 --> 00:02:57,813 Speaker 1: another job interview that other people couldn't get. We'll get 61 00:02:57,813 --> 00:03:00,623 Speaker 1: to that later on. Friends of Jane, beware. Yeah, be careful. 62 00:03:00,733 --> 00:03:03,453 Speaker 1: Don't go with her to an interview. So you decided 63 00:03:03,453 --> 00:03:06,012 Speaker 1: with all these different factors to shift and decided that 64 00:03:06,013 --> 00:03:09,732 Speaker 1: it's time to stay grounded, pun intended, right? Yeah, when 65 00:03:09,733 --> 00:03:11,492 Speaker 1: you were on the job as a flight attendant. 66 00:03:11,845 --> 00:03:14,526 Speaker 1: you also picked up certain skills. I would like to 67 00:03:14,526 --> 00:03:16,845 Speaker 1: hear from you, what sort of skills do you think 68 00:03:16,845 --> 00:03:18,365 Speaker 1: were skills that you picked up on the job as 69 00:03:18,365 --> 00:03:21,606 Speaker 1: a flight attendant that you think were transferable for your 70 00:03:21,606 --> 00:03:22,565 Speaker 1: next pivot. 71 00:03:22,686 --> 00:03:26,085 Speaker 2: From my experience as a flight attendant, I picked up 72 00:03:26,085 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 2: some communication skills because they train us on how to 73 00:03:30,356 --> 00:03:34,755 Speaker 2: handle different passenger situations, how to handle conflicts on board. 74 00:03:35,085 --> 00:03:38,555 Speaker 2: And so when I decided to transit into tech, 75 00:03:38,990 --> 00:03:43,570 Speaker 2: I sort of positioned myself as someone with stronger communication 76 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:48,039 Speaker 2: skills because I realized that in such a highly technical industry, 77 00:03:48,210 --> 00:03:52,770 Speaker 2: many people were able to show their technical skills, but 78 00:03:52,770 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 2: not so much their interpersonal skills. So I did some 79 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,770 Speaker 2: research on the industry while job searching and noticed the 80 00:04:00,770 --> 00:04:03,270 Speaker 2: companies were saying that to have 81 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,470 Speaker 2: A very good software engineer, you don't just want to 82 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:09,110 Speaker 2: look for someone with good technical skills. You need to 83 00:04:09,110 --> 00:04:12,750 Speaker 2: have someone with good communication and interpersonal skills as well, 84 00:04:12,949 --> 00:04:16,178 Speaker 2: so that you can communicate the technical aspects to technical 85 00:04:16,178 --> 00:04:21,230 Speaker 2: and non-technical stakeholders. I was able to explain technical concepts 86 00:04:21,230 --> 00:04:25,070 Speaker 2: very well in layman terms to, for example, the hiring 87 00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:27,549 Speaker 2: manager who's not technical or the HR person. 88 00:04:28,010 --> 00:04:31,630 Speaker 2: Or clients, what kind of features do they want and 89 00:04:31,630 --> 00:04:34,868 Speaker 2: translate that into code for the team, that's a skill 90 00:04:34,869 --> 00:04:35,980 Speaker 2: that I brought over. 91 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: As a flight attendant, you were attending to the needs 92 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: of your passengers and now your passengers have changed and 93 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: they are basically your clients who need some software, so 94 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: they're asking you, can you write some software and you're 95 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,660 Speaker 1: able to pick that up and build a relationship with them. Yeah. 96 00:04:49,928 --> 00:04:52,829 Speaker 1: So all the jobs in the world that you could choose, 97 00:04:53,238 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: why did you choose the tech industry? Did you have 98 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,350 Speaker 1: any prior knowledge of how to code? 99 00:05:01,070 --> 00:05:01,269 Speaker 1: before. 100 00:05:01,309 --> 00:05:04,059 Speaker 2: I did a bit of HTML. Does blogspot count? 101 00:05:04,230 --> 00:05:06,059 Speaker 1: Oh you colors. 102 00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:09,549 Speaker 2: Other than that, I do not have any prior knowledge. 103 00:05:10,109 --> 00:05:12,910 Speaker 2: I knew that even if it wasn't tech, I had 104 00:05:12,910 --> 00:05:15,589 Speaker 2: to step out of the flying life. Tech seemed to 105 00:05:15,589 --> 00:05:18,500 Speaker 2: be something that I could learn on the site while flying. 106 00:05:19,428 --> 00:05:22,540 Speaker 2: So I started to dabble in code with some short 107 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:25,070 Speaker 2: external courses online. I realized. 108 00:05:25,149 --> 00:05:30,859 Speaker 2: that coding wasn't just about creating something, solving problems and 109 00:05:30,859 --> 00:05:34,500 Speaker 2: more than that, it was a learning journey. Every single 110 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:39,140 Speaker 2: time I was able to debug a very complicated technical problem, 111 00:05:39,299 --> 00:05:42,779 Speaker 2: I just felt a sense of satisfaction, after hours of 112 00:05:42,779 --> 00:05:45,369 Speaker 2: pondering over the same problem I was able to solve it. 113 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:48,738 Speaker 2: That felt really exciting to me. I was learning something 114 00:05:48,738 --> 00:05:49,420 Speaker 2: all the time. 115 00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:52,149 Speaker 2: And it felt like, OK, it's not just a stepping 116 00:05:52,149 --> 00:05:54,510 Speaker 2: stone for me. I want to do this for my career. 117 00:05:55,190 --> 00:05:57,899 Speaker 2: So I decided to take the lead and go into this. 118 00:05:58,019 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: So that's very interesting because you were doing this outside 119 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,029 Speaker 1: of your regular hours, but then knowing the work that 120 00:06:05,029 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: you had, it can be quite punishing on the body 121 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,470 Speaker 1: because you're working in different time zones and 122 00:06:09,738 --> 00:06:11,260 Speaker 1: The last thing you want is to come back and 123 00:06:11,260 --> 00:06:13,469 Speaker 1: sit in front of a computer and do this and 124 00:06:13,470 --> 00:06:15,779 Speaker 1: like you say, hours of doing this, you feel a 125 00:06:15,779 --> 00:06:17,979 Speaker 1: sense of achievement after you debug something. I would probably 126 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:20,779 Speaker 1: quit after 30 minutes. I think 30 minutes is the 127 00:06:20,779 --> 00:06:22,208 Speaker 1: max for my attention span. 128 00:06:22,769 --> 00:06:27,579 Speaker 2: I mean, for flying the same destinations, I've reached a 129 00:06:27,579 --> 00:06:29,570 Speaker 2: certain point where I'd rather just stay in the hotel. 130 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: So I just took the time to try this out. 131 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,660 Speaker 1: Jane puts it right, like dabbling, try. I think these 132 00:06:36,660 --> 00:06:38,940 Speaker 1: are words right, that you may think that it's nothing, 133 00:06:39,029 --> 00:06:41,260 Speaker 1: but actually what you're doing is you're learning and you're 134 00:06:41,260 --> 00:06:45,390 Speaker 1: actually exploring, you're testing the limits, the boundaries of how 135 00:06:45,390 --> 00:06:48,469 Speaker 1: much of this interest should I pursue further. Many of 136 00:06:48,470 --> 00:06:50,109 Speaker 1: us when we work, we are so busy with our 137 00:06:50,109 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: work life, right? We don't have time to dabble or 138 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,589 Speaker 1: to try and that's the reason why career development doesn't 139 00:06:54,589 --> 00:06:56,950 Speaker 1: really take place. You're always in that zone. 140 00:06:57,238 --> 00:07:00,690 Speaker 1: But what Jane really did well is in her non-flying times, 141 00:07:00,940 --> 00:07:03,609 Speaker 1: she's just trying out things. I think that is really 142 00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:06,339 Speaker 1: one critical step as part of her knowing that this 143 00:07:06,339 --> 00:07:08,820 Speaker 1: is the thing for her. But exactly when did you 144 00:07:08,820 --> 00:07:11,130 Speaker 1: realize that this was the right move for you? So, 145 00:07:11,380 --> 00:07:14,380 Speaker 1: from dabbling to actually making this a full-time career, how 146 00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:15,179 Speaker 1: did you know that 147 00:07:15,179 --> 00:07:17,260 Speaker 2: this is it? Because when I reached the 5 year mark, 148 00:07:17,989 --> 00:07:21,149 Speaker 2: SIA has this thing called the 5 year gratuity. So 149 00:07:21,149 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: it's a lump sum of bonus. I looked at my 150 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,709 Speaker 2: financials and I decided that, yeah, I want to do 151 00:07:27,709 --> 00:07:31,190 Speaker 2: the switch now. I'm very sure of where I want 152 00:07:31,190 --> 00:07:33,309 Speaker 2: to go into, so I knew that I needed to 153 00:07:33,309 --> 00:07:36,709 Speaker 2: take steps to formalize my learning, not just doing it 154 00:07:36,709 --> 00:07:40,839 Speaker 2: on the side. So I gathered about 2 years' worth. 155 00:07:40,910 --> 00:07:43,109 Speaker 2: I know that I can sustain for more than 2 156 00:07:43,109 --> 00:07:45,029 Speaker 2: years and then I quit my job. 157 00:07:45,489 --> 00:07:50,309 Speaker 2: So, I came across the tech immersion and placement program, TIPP. 158 00:07:50,380 --> 00:07:55,540 Speaker 2: They offered various academies including General Assembly, subsidies for students, 159 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,179 Speaker 2: a certain percentage. So you pay a small percentage and 160 00:08:00,179 --> 00:08:03,149 Speaker 2: you go into the course and they will help you. 161 00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:05,070 Speaker 2: With the tech transition, 162 00:08:05,239 --> 00:08:08,290 Speaker 1: including helping you to find placement after you graduate. 163 00:08:08,359 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: They do not help you find placement per se, but 164 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,359 Speaker 2: they do guide you with their career cultures. 165 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: At any point did you feel that you had a 166 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,829 Speaker 1: disadvantage because you are starting late. Would you ever compare 167 00:08:19,829 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: yourself with people who maybe they have studied this for 168 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,670 Speaker 1: many years? Did you ever feel that you would never 169 00:08:25,670 --> 00:08:26,279 Speaker 1: be able to catch 170 00:08:26,279 --> 00:08:26,549 Speaker 1: up? 171 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,799 Speaker 2: Of course, there were many moments where I felt like that. 172 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:33,979 Speaker 2: But before the course, I did preempt that I will 173 00:08:33,979 --> 00:08:37,020 Speaker 2: have a more difficult time understanding concepts that might be 174 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:40,250 Speaker 2: intuitive to other people who already have a more STEM background. 175 00:08:40,539 --> 00:08:43,539 Speaker 2: My degree is business and management, so I really don't 176 00:08:43,539 --> 00:08:47,179 Speaker 2: have the background. So what I did was previously, I 177 00:08:47,179 --> 00:08:49,979 Speaker 2: dabbled a little bit at the site. I took up 178 00:08:49,979 --> 00:08:53,460 Speaker 2: short courses to reinforce what I've learned before I went 179 00:08:53,460 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: into the course. For General Assembly, they also 180 00:08:56,447 --> 00:08:59,958 Speaker 2: have this short course called pre-work where you have to 181 00:08:59,958 --> 00:09:03,937 Speaker 2: clear the pre-work before you officially enroll into the course. 182 00:09:04,317 --> 00:09:06,768 Speaker 2: So I took that more seriously because I know that 183 00:09:06,768 --> 00:09:11,038 Speaker 2: I needed to. I always go back and revisit concepts 184 00:09:11,038 --> 00:09:13,117 Speaker 2: that I wasn't sure of. I make sure that I 185 00:09:13,117 --> 00:09:16,638 Speaker 2: really understood it properly before I moved on. The deadlines 186 00:09:16,638 --> 00:09:20,237 Speaker 2: are very tight and the pace was extremely relentless. We 187 00:09:20,237 --> 00:09:22,528 Speaker 2: barely had any break and about halfway through. 188 00:09:22,705 --> 00:09:26,574 Speaker 2: Through the course, I found myself really struggling. I couldn't 189 00:09:26,575 --> 00:09:29,716 Speaker 2: catch up to the pace of learning we're going at, 190 00:09:29,976 --> 00:09:32,575 Speaker 2: because some of them had engineering backgrounds. I would say 191 00:09:32,575 --> 00:09:35,776 Speaker 2: almost half my class. I even admitted to my instructor 192 00:09:35,776 --> 00:09:38,375 Speaker 2: that I wasn't able to complete my homework on time, 193 00:09:38,856 --> 00:09:43,055 Speaker 2: but fortunately for me, my instructor was super understanding. He 194 00:09:43,056 --> 00:09:45,895 Speaker 2: pushed the deadline back for me and gave a lot 195 00:09:45,895 --> 00:09:48,856 Speaker 2: of valuable feedback on my code, on my project. 196 00:09:49,104 --> 00:09:52,114 Speaker 2: How to proceed from where I'm at, and eventually I 197 00:09:52,114 --> 00:09:54,233 Speaker 2: came out the other side. I felt a very great 198 00:09:54,234 --> 00:09:55,994 Speaker 2: sense of achievement because it was so tough. 199 00:09:56,354 --> 00:09:57,674 Speaker 1: I want to ask you, Jane, at that point where 200 00:09:57,674 --> 00:10:00,103 Speaker 1: you felt like you were already left very far behind, 201 00:10:00,273 --> 00:10:02,794 Speaker 1: did the thought of just giving up ever cross your mind? 202 00:10:02,943 --> 00:10:04,914 Speaker 1: And if not, what made you 203 00:10:04,914 --> 00:10:05,434 Speaker 1: keep going? 204 00:10:05,573 --> 00:10:08,713 Speaker 2: Oh, it didn't cross my mind because I had quit 205 00:10:08,713 --> 00:10:12,893 Speaker 2: my job. Oh, so it's all committed to it. So 206 00:10:12,893 --> 00:10:14,963 Speaker 2: I told myself if I'm able to get a tech job. 207 00:10:15,221 --> 00:10:18,530 Speaker 2: So words and good for me. Otherwise, coding is a 208 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:21,091 Speaker 2: very important skill in today's world and I could do 209 00:10:21,091 --> 00:10:23,461 Speaker 2: my own business, I could set up my own websites, 210 00:10:23,731 --> 00:10:27,211 Speaker 2: I could freelance. When I pick up coding, it's not 211 00:10:27,211 --> 00:10:30,002 Speaker 2: necessarily I have to go into a software engineering role. 212 00:10:30,372 --> 00:10:33,101 Speaker 2: There are other tech adjacent roles as well, tech sales, 213 00:10:33,651 --> 00:10:36,052 Speaker 2: product management, many things actually 214 00:10:36,052 --> 00:10:38,051 Speaker 1: failing was not an option for her. I think she 215 00:10:38,052 --> 00:10:41,252 Speaker 1: can see that there's an attitude of very determined, very resilient, you. 216 00:10:41,489 --> 00:10:44,539 Speaker 1: Your money and you make sure that as you got in, 217 00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:46,150 Speaker 1: you want to get something out of this, right? And 218 00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:47,869 Speaker 1: I like how she mentioned also, at the end, she 219 00:10:47,869 --> 00:10:50,469 Speaker 1: might not be a software engineer, but she could do 220 00:10:50,469 --> 00:10:53,309 Speaker 1: other things. I think the adjacent parts, starting to connect 221 00:10:53,309 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: back with your degree in business management, you said, I'll 222 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,150 Speaker 1: maybe do my own business, tech sales, yeah, which is 223 00:10:58,150 --> 00:11:00,909 Speaker 1: all soft skills that you have already clocked under your 224 00:11:00,909 --> 00:11:03,939 Speaker 1: career experience of 5 years. And we understand that during 225 00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:07,630 Speaker 1: one of your technical interviews, you were just a bootcamp graduate, right? 226 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,020 Speaker 1: You had to solve questions that were posed to you. 227 00:11:11,210 --> 00:11:13,570 Speaker 1: In fact, the interviewer was surprised that you managed to 228 00:11:13,570 --> 00:11:18,250 Speaker 1: solve questions that stumped some candidates who had a computer 229 00:11:18,250 --> 00:11:21,739 Speaker 1: science degree. I'm interested to know, how did you actually 230 00:11:21,739 --> 00:11:24,799 Speaker 1: solve a problem that people with that technical knowledge couldn't 231 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:25,130 Speaker 1: do? 232 00:11:25,330 --> 00:11:28,209 Speaker 2: Because people with computer science degrees, they study this subject 233 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:32,489 Speaker 2: for 4 years, right? They don't study the full coding 234 00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:35,530 Speaker 2: part for 4 years. They do study theory and many 235 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:36,770 Speaker 2: other things to foster. 236 00:11:37,192 --> 00:11:41,403 Speaker 2: Some background understanding. OK. But for me, we focus all 237 00:11:41,403 --> 00:11:45,572 Speaker 2: our time on purely web development and clearing technical interviews. 238 00:11:46,033 --> 00:11:49,552 Speaker 2: So in that sense, we did have some advantage. Actually, 239 00:11:49,672 --> 00:11:52,872 Speaker 2: I did get the offer for that company and it 240 00:11:52,872 --> 00:11:55,312 Speaker 2: was my very first offer that I scored. I was 241 00:11:55,312 --> 00:11:58,062 Speaker 2: very happy, but when I went home and thought about it, 242 00:11:58,273 --> 00:12:01,192 Speaker 2: it seemed like a fluke. I just got lucky and 243 00:12:01,192 --> 00:12:03,742 Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I solved it on my own. 244 00:12:04,072 --> 00:12:05,752 Speaker 2: So I was feeling a bit of an imposter. 245 00:12:05,905 --> 00:12:08,656 Speaker 2: Syndrome and I spoke to my family about it. I 246 00:12:08,655 --> 00:12:10,815 Speaker 2: was telling my brother that I just got lucky and 247 00:12:10,815 --> 00:12:13,255 Speaker 2: my brother was telling me, but you are the one 248 00:12:13,255 --> 00:12:16,415 Speaker 2: that practiced the question. When you had the opportunity to 249 00:12:16,416 --> 00:12:18,656 Speaker 2: practice it, you practiced it, so how can it be luck? 250 00:12:19,255 --> 00:12:21,976 Speaker 2: So I think it's very important to practice these technical 251 00:12:21,976 --> 00:12:25,564 Speaker 2: skills as well, in addition to other soft skills in interviews. 252 00:12:25,815 --> 00:12:25,976 Speaker 1: I 253 00:12:25,976 --> 00:12:28,655 Speaker 1: think this is really, if I take this advice from 254 00:12:28,655 --> 00:12:31,175 Speaker 1: Jane and extrapolate it a bit larger, it applies to 255 00:12:31,176 --> 00:12:33,385 Speaker 1: many things we do actually, right, when we are thinking 256 00:12:33,385 --> 00:12:34,856 Speaker 1: of changing or learning something. 257 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,429 Speaker 1: There's always going to be a lot of new challenges. 258 00:12:37,510 --> 00:12:40,429 Speaker 1: We have to keep learning, keep doing something different. All 259 00:12:40,429 --> 00:12:42,858 Speaker 1: these little bits, they add up to what we actually know, 260 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:45,140 Speaker 1: but most of the time people tend to avoid challenges, 261 00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:47,830 Speaker 1: they want to be comfortable. True. But having gone through 262 00:12:47,830 --> 00:12:50,669 Speaker 1: what you've gone through, right, how realistic do you think 263 00:12:50,669 --> 00:12:53,270 Speaker 1: it will be for people who aspire to be in 264 00:12:53,270 --> 00:12:55,669 Speaker 1: your situation? Because I think the last thing we want 265 00:12:55,715 --> 00:12:57,825 Speaker 1: is to make people think that it's so easy to 266 00:12:57,825 --> 00:13:00,385 Speaker 1: get it right. Anybody can do this hard pivot. What 267 00:13:00,385 --> 00:13:03,343 Speaker 1: would you say are some tips you would give to 268 00:13:03,344 --> 00:13:05,704 Speaker 1: somebody who's thinking of being in your position? I 269 00:13:05,705 --> 00:13:09,544 Speaker 2: mean, I am an average person, right? I'm not someone special. 270 00:13:09,625 --> 00:13:13,145 Speaker 2: I do not have prior knowledge and even when in 271 00:13:13,145 --> 00:13:14,424 Speaker 2: primary secondary school, 272 00:13:14,750 --> 00:13:17,260 Speaker 2: I don't like science, I don't like math, I prefer 273 00:13:17,260 --> 00:13:21,179 Speaker 2: writing essays over solving for acts. So if you are 274 00:13:21,179 --> 00:13:23,409 Speaker 2: going to ask me, I feel that anybody can do it, 275 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:27,950 Speaker 2: but whether to be able to successfully transit into tech, 276 00:13:28,099 --> 00:13:30,340 Speaker 2: I think it takes a lot of determination, it takes 277 00:13:30,340 --> 00:13:33,380 Speaker 2: a lot of courage to step out of your current 278 00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:36,859 Speaker 2: role and you need to like what you are going into. 279 00:13:37,409 --> 00:13:40,728 Speaker 2: One of the biggest things to consider would be to 280 00:13:40,729 --> 00:13:45,729 Speaker 2: sort out your financials first because a career transition is 281 00:13:45,729 --> 00:13:49,369 Speaker 2: already very stressful. You don't need financial pressure on top 282 00:13:49,369 --> 00:13:53,439 Speaker 2: of that. So there isn't a one size fits all 283 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,228 Speaker 2: savings amount that I can recommend, but it depends on 284 00:13:57,229 --> 00:14:02,130 Speaker 2: everyone's lifestyle, everyone's needs, and another important factor is being 285 00:14:02,130 --> 00:14:04,530 Speaker 2: honest with yourself about your career goals. 286 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,900 Speaker 2: Money is undoubtedly a strong motivator in why people want 287 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:13,969 Speaker 2: to transit, but beyond financial gain, it's not very sustainable 288 00:14:14,299 --> 00:14:17,819 Speaker 2: if money is the sole factor. For me, I prioritize 289 00:14:17,820 --> 00:14:20,460 Speaker 2: more time with my loved ones and enjoy the process 290 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:25,059 Speaker 2: of continuous learning. It is also crucial to research the 291 00:14:25,059 --> 00:14:28,059 Speaker 2: industry before you look into the career path that you 292 00:14:28,059 --> 00:14:28,969 Speaker 2: want to go into. 293 00:14:29,609 --> 00:14:32,469 Speaker 2: Look at their job postings, look at what kind of 294 00:14:32,469 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 2: skills they are looking for in those job postings and 295 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: see if there's a viable path towards attaining these skills 296 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,559 Speaker 2: rather than chasing those hype skills. They might fit within 297 00:14:42,559 --> 00:14:46,109 Speaker 2: a year or two, but just focus on long term stability. 298 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: I did take a look at government reports on jobs 299 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: in demand and make sure that this 300 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:52,659 Speaker 1: career 301 00:14:52,659 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: is one of it. 302 00:14:54,190 --> 00:14:56,609 Speaker 1: In demand until you retire. 303 00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:00,340 Speaker 2: And last but not least, I think if you're coming 304 00:15:00,340 --> 00:15:04,460 Speaker 2: from a non-STEM background like me, just take more time 305 00:15:04,460 --> 00:15:07,460 Speaker 2: before you go into the course to learn things so 306 00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:09,580 Speaker 2: that when it gets rigorous, when it gets intense, you 307 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:10,950 Speaker 2: will not be completely lost. 308 00:15:11,500 --> 00:15:13,299 Speaker 1: So now that you have gotten the job, are there 309 00:15:13,299 --> 00:15:15,049 Speaker 1: days where you have struggled? 310 00:15:15,219 --> 00:15:18,570 Speaker 2: Some days I ask myself, am I really a software engineer? 311 00:15:19,619 --> 00:15:22,890 Speaker 2: In my team, I'm still considered a very junior software engineer. 312 00:15:22,940 --> 00:15:25,049 Speaker 2: I have my seniors ahead of me, I have my 313 00:15:25,049 --> 00:15:27,750 Speaker 2: techni ahead of me and also not many women, right? 314 00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:30,859 Speaker 2: Not many. When I look at the code that they 315 00:15:30,859 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: are writing, sometimes I really don't understand. It makes me 316 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,159 Speaker 2: feel like, oh, we are all software engineers. How come 317 00:15:37,159 --> 00:15:39,739 Speaker 2: I don't understand what you're writing? Am I really a 318 00:15:39,739 --> 00:15:41,219 Speaker 2: software engineer? So 319 00:15:41,219 --> 00:15:43,030 Speaker 1: how do you overcome that when these thoughts come? 320 00:15:43,179 --> 00:15:45,020 Speaker 2: You cannot be afraid to ask questions. 321 00:15:45,414 --> 00:15:48,414 Speaker 2: No matter how simple you might think it is, just 322 00:15:48,414 --> 00:15:51,974 Speaker 2: go ahead and ask the person. Actually, what is this about? 323 00:15:52,205 --> 00:15:54,974 Speaker 2: Eventually you will be able to get to the point 324 00:15:54,974 --> 00:15:58,335 Speaker 2: where you will still have impostor syndrome, but it will 325 00:15:58,335 --> 00:15:59,215 Speaker 2: slowly get better. 326 00:15:59,335 --> 00:16:01,304 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of us, we are so 327 00:16:01,304 --> 00:16:03,854 Speaker 1: worried about asking questions. We are afraid that our questions 328 00:16:03,854 --> 00:16:06,455 Speaker 1: make us look like we don't know, right? But yet 329 00:16:06,455 --> 00:16:09,164 Speaker 1: asking questions is like the door to find an answer, 330 00:16:09,395 --> 00:16:10,854 Speaker 1: it's a door to learn something new. 331 00:16:11,179 --> 00:16:14,109 Speaker 1: And if you never ask that question, you will come 332 00:16:14,109 --> 00:16:16,429 Speaker 1: out from the situation not knowing what really happened. So 333 00:16:16,429 --> 00:16:18,909 Speaker 1: I really admire what Jane is giving us today, like 334 00:16:18,909 --> 00:16:24,150 Speaker 1: a lot of traits of determination, resilience, learnability, very high learnability, 335 00:16:24,190 --> 00:16:26,510 Speaker 1: and I think these are the preconditions actually for someone 336 00:16:26,510 --> 00:16:29,630 Speaker 1: to make a career switch. It's not just about going 337 00:16:29,630 --> 00:16:31,669 Speaker 1: to a job that has high in demand, not just 338 00:16:31,669 --> 00:16:34,190 Speaker 1: about that, but also like, can you sustain can you 339 00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:37,030 Speaker 1: last that transition. So thank you so much, Jane, for 340 00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:38,030 Speaker 1: coming on and sharing 341 00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:38,590 Speaker 1: your story. 342 00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:40,020 Speaker 2: Thank you for the opportunity. 343 00:16:44,190 --> 00:16:47,190 Speaker 1: Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where we 344 00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:51,109 Speaker 1: tackle a question you have sent us. Our listener acquaint 345 00:16:51,109 --> 00:16:53,809 Speaker 1: sent one to us and we're going to talk about it. 346 00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:57,150 Speaker 1: He's in a close-knit team of about 15 people and 347 00:16:57,150 --> 00:17:00,109 Speaker 1: they're in the banking sector. One of the senior managers 348 00:17:00,109 --> 00:17:03,270 Speaker 1: came across an opportunity in a competing firm and has 349 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:06,670 Speaker 1: floated the idea to 5 people in the team, including Queen. 350 00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:10,709 Speaker 1: Now no one has a non-compete or a non-solicitation clause 351 00:17:10,709 --> 00:17:14,630 Speaker 1: in their contract, but they're concerned about the fallout when 352 00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:18,770 Speaker 1: they announced their resignation. Before we could record this AMA, 353 00:17:18,989 --> 00:17:21,420 Speaker 1: Quin wrote back to me that one of the directors 354 00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:24,589 Speaker 1: that he wants to work with pulled out saying that 355 00:17:24,589 --> 00:17:27,349 Speaker 1: he prefers the stability of the current job but may 356 00:17:27,349 --> 00:17:29,750 Speaker 1: move in 9 months' time. Quinn is not sure what 357 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:32,140 Speaker 1: to do now. Should he move? And if he does, 358 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:35,589 Speaker 1: will this mass exodus look bad for all of them. 359 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,900 Speaker 1: I think Tiffany, this is a very interesting situation. 15 360 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:42,339 Speaker 1: people are moving together. Yeah, 15 people in the team, 361 00:17:42,420 --> 00:17:44,180 Speaker 1: but about 5 people are going to move, so a 362 00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:45,339 Speaker 1: third of them are going to move. So it's like 363 00:17:45,339 --> 00:17:48,060 Speaker 1: the first batch, first batch. Who knows, there may be more. 364 00:17:48,459 --> 00:17:51,300 Speaker 1: I think just based on this situation, right, my suspicion 365 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:53,819 Speaker 1: is Quinn may be seeing things from perhaps a roast. 366 00:17:53,989 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: The lens of a happy family working together, but I 367 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: think in reality it really doesn't work that way. Yeah. 368 00:18:00,209 --> 00:18:03,839 Speaker 1: Usually most of big groups of people moving across competing firms, 369 00:18:04,099 --> 00:18:06,369 Speaker 1: they don't really happen. When they break it up into 370 00:18:06,369 --> 00:18:08,849 Speaker 1: like batches of the 1st 5, sometimes there's a reason 371 00:18:08,849 --> 00:18:11,329 Speaker 1: why they break you into the batches, right? Certain things 372 00:18:11,329 --> 00:18:12,129 Speaker 1: are maybe 373 00:18:12,319 --> 00:18:13,939 Speaker 1: The first group of people are the ones that they really, 374 00:18:13,949 --> 00:18:16,708 Speaker 1: really want, and then after that, things may change. It's 375 00:18:16,709 --> 00:18:19,270 Speaker 1: like nice to have, but then I feel bad that 376 00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:21,910 Speaker 1: we didn't bring you across. So we kind of floated 377 00:18:21,910 --> 00:18:23,550 Speaker 1: the idea as well. Yeah, so that's what I mean 378 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:26,629 Speaker 1: by the rose-tinted lenses. Usually the higher, maybe they prefer 379 00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:28,948 Speaker 1: certain employees and then they want them to come as 380 00:18:28,949 --> 00:18:31,380 Speaker 1: the first batch. The rest is like see how. OK. 381 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: I think also when 382 00:18:32,865 --> 00:18:35,715 Speaker 1: Moves are being discussed, right? It's not just the demand 383 00:18:35,715 --> 00:18:38,135 Speaker 1: side that may change, but it's also even on the 384 00:18:38,135 --> 00:18:41,056 Speaker 1: employee side, the supply side because they are in different 385 00:18:41,056 --> 00:18:44,135 Speaker 1: life stages, different tenure in the company. Some of them 386 00:18:44,135 --> 00:18:46,375 Speaker 1: might feel that, OK, if some people in my team 387 00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:49,535 Speaker 1: move on, I have opportunities. Oh yes, that's true. If 388 00:18:49,536 --> 00:18:52,176 Speaker 1: I stay on, the loyalty may be rewarded. I be 389 00:18:52,176 --> 00:18:53,186 Speaker 1: able to progress further. 390 00:18:53,411 --> 00:18:56,161 Speaker 1: It's a gap, you see. So it's not realistic to 391 00:18:56,161 --> 00:18:58,321 Speaker 1: say everybody will move together for the same thing. I 392 00:18:58,321 --> 00:19:00,322 Speaker 1: think the sound of it at the start sounds very 393 00:19:00,321 --> 00:19:03,362 Speaker 1: good because it sounds like very spartan moment, like we 394 00:19:03,362 --> 00:19:06,621 Speaker 1: are going to go and then everybody is like move, 395 00:19:06,802 --> 00:19:09,841 Speaker 1: charge that kind of stuff, but you're right because there 396 00:19:09,842 --> 00:19:12,161 Speaker 1: might be people who are let's say parents or who 397 00:19:12,161 --> 00:19:13,870 Speaker 1: have loans and they might go. 398 00:19:14,239 --> 00:19:16,410 Speaker 1: You know, I would prefer the stability, like one of 399 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:18,989 Speaker 1: the directors that he mentioned, right, would prefer the stability 400 00:19:18,989 --> 00:19:21,319 Speaker 1: and I think when he said I might move in 401 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:23,170 Speaker 1: 9 months' time, I think that person is also sussing 402 00:19:23,170 --> 00:19:26,969 Speaker 1: out because what if things change within the current company 403 00:19:26,969 --> 00:19:29,209 Speaker 1: if he gets a promotion like you say, he might 404 00:19:29,209 --> 00:19:32,169 Speaker 1: not move or if the company decides, OK, this is 405 00:19:32,170 --> 00:19:34,250 Speaker 1: not very, yeah, there's now double bootload, we are not 406 00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:36,530 Speaker 1: going to increase headcount, then maybe he will move. But 407 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:37,339 Speaker 1: whatever is the case. 408 00:19:37,939 --> 00:19:40,530 Speaker 1: There are people who want the stability. They don't really 409 00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:43,329 Speaker 1: want the lure of going to something that is new, 410 00:19:43,459 --> 00:19:46,260 Speaker 1: something that pays well now, because they want something that 411 00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:47,939 Speaker 1: it's like bird in hand, right? You have the bird 412 00:19:47,939 --> 00:19:51,699 Speaker 1: in hand. Why do I want to shake my own foundation. 413 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,290 Speaker 1: So you're right, I think maybe what Quin can do 414 00:19:54,290 --> 00:19:56,609 Speaker 1: is to think where is he at at this point 415 00:19:56,609 --> 00:19:59,089 Speaker 1: in his career. Does he need the stability or 416 00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:02,050 Speaker 1: Does he want to try something different? So move not 417 00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:04,770 Speaker 1: because it's like a spartan moment, but you know, do 418 00:20:04,770 --> 00:20:07,410 Speaker 1: it because he wants to. I mean, would you say 419 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: that would be your advice as a career counselor? Exactly. 420 00:20:09,689 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: I think when we take ownership of our own career, 421 00:20:12,050 --> 00:20:14,530 Speaker 1: we think for ourselves and not just rely on other 422 00:20:14,530 --> 00:20:17,129 Speaker 1: people and what they are doing. It puts the ownership 423 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,969 Speaker 1: of career into our own hands and we are more 424 00:20:18,969 --> 00:20:22,329 Speaker 1: convinced and convicted, committed towards how we want our career 425 00:20:22,329 --> 00:20:24,540 Speaker 1: to move forward. I mean, just imagine, right, if today 426 00:20:24,930 --> 00:20:27,609 Speaker 1: Quin makes a move across and then he realizes that 427 00:20:27,609 --> 00:20:29,510 Speaker 1: actually the grass is not greener on the other side. 428 00:20:29,849 --> 00:20:31,689 Speaker 1: Then where do you put that blame? Do you blame 429 00:20:31,689 --> 00:20:35,030 Speaker 1: that because everybody went, so that's why I also followed on, 430 00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:36,410 Speaker 1: and it's not working out for me, but it's working 431 00:20:36,410 --> 00:20:38,369 Speaker 1: out for everybody else. I think it's important to think 432 00:20:38,369 --> 00:20:40,349 Speaker 1: for yourself so that you have the ownership. 433 00:20:40,869 --> 00:20:43,739 Speaker 1: Good thing is work relationships can progress into friendships outside 434 00:20:43,739 --> 00:20:46,419 Speaker 1: of work. So the relationships that Queen, you built up 435 00:20:46,420 --> 00:20:49,020 Speaker 1: with your 14 other people on the team, it will 436 00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:51,339 Speaker 1: last past the companies that you are in, no matter 437 00:20:51,339 --> 00:20:53,719 Speaker 1: where you are at. So continue to build that into 438 00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:56,819 Speaker 1: a friendship, perhaps then you won't miss them that much. Yeah, exactly. 439 00:20:57,319 --> 00:21:00,250 Speaker 1: Now Quaint, I hope our conversation has given you some 440 00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:03,699 Speaker 1: clarity on what to do. Let us know what you decide. 441 00:21:03,849 --> 00:21:06,649 Speaker 1: We're really very curious. If like Quint you have a 442 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:10,079 Speaker 1: work-related question, do write into us. We're at CNA podcasts 443 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:15,810 Speaker 1: at Medcorp.com.sg. You can also find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, 444 00:21:15,849 --> 00:21:16,929 Speaker 1: and YouTube. 445 00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,790 Speaker 1: The team behind the Work It podcast is Christina Robert, 446 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Juani Johari and Sai Ye Win. Sound mixing 447 00:21:23,959 --> 00:21:27,349 Speaker 1: by Carrie Lim, video by Hanida Amin. I'm Gry and 448 00:21:27,349 --> 00:21:31,349 Speaker 1: I'm Tiffany. Here's wishing you a good work week ahead.