Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast.
Speaker 1: We've all seen the rise of fast fashion and its
Speaker 1: negative impact on the environment. But have you ever stopped
Speaker 1: to think about the chairs and tables that furnish our
Speaker 1: homes and offices? It turns out fast furniture, our obsession
Speaker 1: with swiftly changing styles and budget friendly buys but also
Speaker 1: be adding to the climate crisis more than we realize.
Speaker 1: In fact, a 2018 EU report found that nearly 11
Speaker 1: million tons of furniture is thrown
Speaker 1: away every year. That's roughly five chairs for every house
Speaker 1: in the eu only 10% is recycled. The rest is
Speaker 1: incinerated or sent to landfill
Speaker 2: waste is an opportunity you're doing any process in your
Speaker 2: business at your home and you're generating this waste that
Speaker 2: you're unhappy with. Don't just assume that it's inevitable, but
Speaker 2: that's an opportunity to do something else with that
Speaker 1: waste. That's Peter Ortner,
Speaker 1: assistant professor of architecture and sustainability design at the Singapore
Speaker 1: University of Technology and Design. He's the mind behind the
Speaker 1: zero waste folded shell furniture crafted entirely from discarded cardboard
Speaker 1: can sustainable design. Rescue us from drowning in a sea
Speaker 1: of disposable furniture. Peter joins us today. To share his
Speaker 1: insights and solutions
Speaker 1: Peter. Welcome to the Climate Conversations.
Speaker 2: Thank you really glad to be here.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's first delve into what's put you on
Speaker 1: this journey of invention and sustainable design. Sure.
Speaker 2: I'm a professor at SUD. I teach architecture and sustainable design.
Speaker 2: I've always been interested in sustainability, but since I started
Speaker 2: at SUTD, I've had a chance to kind of put
Speaker 2: that into practice. When I was first starting at SUTD,
Speaker 2: they invited me to design their open house. This is
Speaker 2: a regular event. They hold it every year
Speaker 2: and they invite the faculty to design it as this
Speaker 2: kind of fun way to show off that we're makers,
Speaker 2: we can design things. So I was new in Singapore.
Speaker 2: I had just started at this university and I looked
Speaker 2: at what happened in the past and I said, OK,
Speaker 2: I want to do something different and I want to
Speaker 2: create something that has the maximum utility but has the
Speaker 2: minimum impact on the environment. And from that initial position,
Speaker 2: I started just looking at materials, I looked at
Speaker 2: what can I use, what can I work with to
Speaker 2: make something that's really useful but is going to have
Speaker 2: this minimal impact. And the answer turned out to be paper,
Speaker 2: which it's not conventional for furniture, it's not conventional for architecture.
Speaker 2: But the reality is it can be quite strong, it
Speaker 2: has a low environmental impact, especially if you get it
Speaker 2: from the right supplier, it's from a renewable resource. And
Speaker 2: if you're in the right location, it can be recycled
Speaker 2: as well, which is really ideal.
Speaker 2: But then of course, you're stuck with a sheet of
Speaker 2: cardboard or paper. And this problem, how do I make
Speaker 2: something that's useful that's strong, can be reused that people
Speaker 2: will actually like and respond to.
Speaker 2: And that design challenge has been really fun to work with.
Speaker 2: And I think that it's going to be kind of
Speaker 2: an ongoing project for myself. And also I think for
Speaker 2: a lot of people, it's kind of an interesting project
Speaker 2: to engage with.
Speaker 1: So the idea was initially sparked from paper and evolved
Speaker 1: into cardboard eventually. That's
Speaker 2: right. I've done a few generations of this actually. So
Speaker 2: just for some background, the first generation I built like
Speaker 2: a tank because I was really afraid of what's going
Speaker 2: to happen with something made out of paper or cardboard
Speaker 2: with people
Speaker 2: that I don't know using it in situations that I
Speaker 2: can't foresee. So I went through the design process from
Speaker 2: kind of a defensive position. I built something that was big,
Speaker 2: it was sturdy, it was thick, the joints were extra
Speaker 2: strong and that design was really successful and those tables
Speaker 2: are still in use four years later
Speaker 2: for something made out of cardboard, I didn't anticipate that.
Speaker 2: That's amazing that it's still around four years later. But
Speaker 2: the other thing that I hadn't anticipated was I cut
Speaker 2: the budget in half, more than in half. It was
Speaker 2: like 30% of the budget because
Speaker 2: the cardboard was much cheaper than the materials that we've
Speaker 2: been using in the past. And this was really exciting
Speaker 2: for me in retrospect, because it showed us that we
Speaker 2: could do sustainability in a way that was really cost effective.
Speaker 2: That's also really exciting when we talk about green business
Speaker 2: and business opportunities and getting out of this trap of
Speaker 2: the green premium. But the story from this year is
Speaker 2: I came back to this design and I said I'm
Speaker 2: going to do a new generation. And this time I
Speaker 2: want to show that
Speaker 2: sustainable design doesn't need to be minimal. It can be fun,
Speaker 2: it can be playful. We can have a variety of
Speaker 2: different shapes and forms that we can play with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: talk to us about the range of possibilities here. Can
Speaker 1: it be adapted to other design
Speaker 2: needs? Yeah, in terms of different design needs, the first
Speaker 2: generation was designed as a podium which is a display
Speaker 2: podium for an exhibition. So it's kind of boxy and
Speaker 2: the current generation, the paper shell
Speaker 2: table. This version is a table with legs that you
Speaker 2: can put your feet under. It can be used as
Speaker 2: a study car but also can be used as a
Speaker 2: display podium. And for this, I went and looked at
Speaker 2: the paper fold. So this idea that if you fold
Speaker 2: a sheet of paper in half, it becomes very strong,
Speaker 2: it can stand up on its own. You can remove
Speaker 2: actually some of the material that still stands. This allowed
Speaker 2: me to move away from something that was of this
Speaker 2: kind of rectangular
Speaker 2: box to something that was a series of folded triangular
Speaker 2: shells that could combine together into something that was more
Speaker 2: freestanding that you could put your legs under as
Speaker 1: well. And you're making these furniture solely relying on folding.
Speaker 1: I find that fascinating. I mean, how do you fold
Speaker 1: them into something sturdy without needing extra support?
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a couple of factors here. One thing
Speaker 2: is the technology that I'm using.
Speaker 2: I'm not actually cutting these by hand. What we're using
Speaker 2: is a digital cutting tool called a Zoomed. It's a
Speaker 2: knife cutter and it cuts out the piece, but it
Speaker 2: also can cut at different angles which allow us to
Speaker 2: achieve a very strong folds that stay at a specific
Speaker 2: angle while the piece is assembled. What I found in
Speaker 2: this case was when I took these triangular shelves and
Speaker 2: I laid them out on the flat sheets of material
Speaker 2: for fabrication.
Speaker 2: I was getting a ton of leftover wasted material cutoffs
Speaker 2: is what they're called. I went back to the drawing board.
Speaker 2: I calculated how much was being wasted. It was almost 30%.
Speaker 2: And this was really unacceptable to me from this kind
Speaker 2: of starting position that I want to create something with
Speaker 2: maximum utility but minimum impact for the environment. So I
Speaker 2: had to rethink the whole process for this generation of
Speaker 2: the design.
Speaker 2: And what I did is I kind of redesigned power.
Speaker 2: The pieces were laid out in the flat sheet so
Speaker 2: that the pieces that were left over were shapes that
Speaker 2: were usable in the end. So I was able to
Speaker 2: combine them together to make a stool. So an additional
Speaker 2: piece of furniture,
Speaker 1: I did see that very intricate layout of your designs.
Speaker 1: Do you call this a blueprint?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the cut sheet. So that's the file that
Speaker 2: you send to the machine that
Speaker 2: sit out. It's called the cut sheet. You know, in
Speaker 2: the past, I've done research on using optimization to create
Speaker 2: these cut sheets. So using an algorithm to do it.
Speaker 2: But in this case, I did it largely manually where
Speaker 2: I was moving these pieces around and looking at the
Speaker 2: shapes that were generated and thinking. Yeah, this could make
Speaker 2: a great stool. You know, maybe I can find another
Speaker 2: piece that can fit into this. Did it
Speaker 1: help that the fact that you're an architect who has
Speaker 1: a sort of a unique perspective to envision structures in
Speaker 1: a multidimensional way?
Speaker 2: Maybe if I were to flatter myself on it. But no,
Speaker 2: I think that this is something that everyone can engage with, right?
Speaker 2: Is this idea that waste is an opportunity. If you're
Speaker 2: doing any process in your business, at your home and
Speaker 2: you're generating this waste that you're unhappy with. Don't just
Speaker 2: assume that it's inevitable, but that's an opportunity to do
Speaker 2: something else with that waste, that waste can become something new.
Speaker 2: And I think that design training is great. Maybe it
Speaker 2: can help you think through that. But I don't think
Speaker 2: that we should say that this is something that only
Speaker 2: designers should do. I think everyone can do this.
Speaker 1: Well, that's very encouraging. How easy or hard is it
Speaker 1: to make them? Can we put it together?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Ok. So from the beginning, I have designed this
Speaker 2: furniture so anyone can assemble it.
Speaker 2: The furniture is actually made with no glues and no fasteners.
Speaker 2: I did this because I want it to be recyclable
Speaker 2: at the end. Right? And if you're gluing things together
Speaker 2: then like have to rip it apart and it's terrible
Speaker 2: to recycle. So these are all designed with friction based
Speaker 2: tab slot joints, which means if I give you the
Speaker 2: pieces in about 10 minutes, you can fold it up
Speaker 2: and slip the tabs together and
Speaker 2: it holds together, it's quite strong.
Speaker 1: So how much weight can cardboard actually
Speaker 2: hold? Right? Ok. Well, so in this case, I'm using
Speaker 2: something that's pretty thick. It's 1.6 centimeters thick and it
Speaker 2: can hold the weight of a person sitting on it easily, comfortably.
Speaker 2: So that was the kind of test for me, right?
Speaker 2: Is I want this when somebody who doesn't know what's
Speaker 2: going on shows up and like
Speaker 2: on this is not going to collapse and has passed
Speaker 2: that test multiple times already.
Speaker 1: Ok. So let's talk about durability and maintenance. What happens
Speaker 1: if I let's say accidentally spill something on it, what
Speaker 1: would happen? Ok.
Speaker 2: This was also a big worry for me and actually
Speaker 2: brought in a second material to handle this, right? Because
Speaker 2: when you have these temporary events, you have a lot
Speaker 2: of people running through. If it's an open house, it's
Speaker 2: an exhibition.
Speaker 2: They always have a cup of coffee and some percentage
Speaker 2: is always going to spill that cup of coffee. So
Speaker 2: in this case, I selected another material that was waterproof.
Speaker 2: So there's a cardboard top surface and then on top
Speaker 2: of that, I have a recycled pe t felt sheet.
Speaker 2: It's
Speaker 2: recyclable, right? It's a plastic, extremely resistant to any kind
Speaker 2: of scuffing or tearing or bending in a way that
Speaker 2: the cardboard isn't and it's also waterproof.
Speaker 1: And of course, we are living in a humid place
Speaker 1: like Singapore. How long can these furniture
Speaker 2: last? Yeah, I don't know. You know, the first ones
Speaker 2: that I built in December 2019, they're still around. We
Speaker 2: should probably set a lifespan for them. I think four
Speaker 2: years is probably reaching the maximum life span pretty soon,
Speaker 2: but it's surprisingly durable. It's exceeded my expectations, which is
Speaker 2: exciting and interesting. But, you know, I think we have
Speaker 2: to be realistic as well. It's cardboard furniture and it
Speaker 2: can take a certain amount of use, it can take
Speaker 2: a certain amount of disassembly and reassembly. But after a
Speaker 2: certain point, it does reach the end of its life,
Speaker 2: then we can recycle it again. We need to responsibly
Speaker 2: recycle it.
Speaker 1: So Peter, let's talk about the aesthetics. How do you
Speaker 1: approach making furniture look good when it's all recycled materials?
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the material that I'm using has recycled content
Speaker 2: in it but it's remanufactured. So it looks like a
Speaker 2: new material. It's not something that is reused from a
Speaker 2: previous application. What's the aesthetic for this? I think that
Speaker 2: what I would love is for a design that when
Speaker 2: people see it,
Speaker 2: they respond to it as something that is telling a
Speaker 2: sustainability story, they look at it and they say, oh,
Speaker 2: I can see this is made from cardboard and also
Speaker 2: I can see how this cardboard joint works.
Speaker 2: And maybe then they can ask, you know, why is
Speaker 2: it cardboard or can I take this apart? Can I
Speaker 2: have a relationship that's more interactive with it than just
Speaker 2: looking at it and saying table, maybe that's more than
Speaker 2: just an aesthetic or different from the anesthetic. But yeah,
Speaker 2: that's my goal is when you look at the construction,
Speaker 2: you start learning the story about this object and maybe
Speaker 2: it helps you understand what is sustainability or what sustainability
Speaker 2: can be.
Speaker 1: Who does this sort of work appeal to? You said
Speaker 1: the reaction's been great so far.
Speaker 2: I think that there's interest in terms of any kind
Speaker 2: of application where it's got a shorter lifespan or a
Speaker 2: lot of turnover or a lot of change. So this
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily just at events, but it could also be
Speaker 2: for people that are living short term in a rental
Speaker 2: space or have a new apartment or something
Speaker 2: and are interested to have some kind of quick, easy
Speaker 2: furniture that they can assemble and use. So I think
Speaker 2: there's interest in this, I think it's definitely a possibility
Speaker 2: and there's also some risk with that too though because
Speaker 2: I think that you have to watch out for it
Speaker 2: becoming something that's seen as disposable.
Speaker 2: You know, a big issue in the furniture industry, like
Speaker 2: the fashion industry is fast furniture. This idea that cheap
Speaker 2: furniture is so cheap that you have it for a
Speaker 2: year or less than a year and you throw it
Speaker 2: away afterwards. It generates a huge amount of waste. I
Speaker 2: think even more serious than the fabrication waste that we
Speaker 2: were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2: So as designers, we have an ability to influence that
Speaker 2: a bit. I think the fact that I'm making furniture
Speaker 2: out of paper doesn't mean that I want it to
Speaker 2: be used irresponsibly. And I hope the fact that it
Speaker 2: can be reused, that it can be used for multiple
Speaker 2: functions that it's easily assemble and disassemble
Speaker 2: will encourage people to keep it longer. In theory, you
Speaker 2: want to look at that whole life cycle of the object.
Speaker 2: And really think it through carefully,
Speaker 1: let's talk about commercializing this idea. How much are we
Speaker 1: talking about in terms of cost? Well,
Speaker 2: the design. So one I think, I think the material
Speaker 2: is extremely affordable. The fabrication
Speaker 2: is fast with this digital cutting machine, it can happen
Speaker 2: almost anywhere. You know, you don't need a massive factory
Speaker 2: to do it. So it's something that in theory could
Speaker 2: be fabricated in many sites around the world. I think
Speaker 2: that a lot of sustainable design has what we call
Speaker 2: the green premium. This idea that you can get a
Speaker 2: normal product or object service or you can get the
Speaker 2: sustainable version, which is 20% more expensive or two times
Speaker 2: more expensive. Sometimes it's really a lot
Speaker 2: and oftentimes what you're getting in return for paying that
Speaker 2: premium is intangible. But it's because I selected the most
Speaker 2: sustainable material that I could find it's actually more affordable. Wonderful. Wow,
Speaker 2: that's exciting. And also on top of that extra bit
Speaker 2: of sustainability that's added to it isn't invisible anymore, right?
Speaker 2: You can see it, it's tangible, you can touch it
Speaker 2: and feel it interact with it. That's also really exciting
Speaker 2: for a sustainable product is
Speaker 2: you can kind of physically experience that sustainability. I think
Speaker 2: that going forward thinking projective about sy architecture in the future,
Speaker 2: that's what we want for architecture as well. That's what
Speaker 2: we want for our built environment. Is that
Speaker 2: sustainable building is the most affordable building right. It's a
Speaker 2: no brainer that you want to do the sustainable building.
Speaker 2: It makes business sense as well. And not only that,
Speaker 2: but it's this wonderful experience where you can touch this
Speaker 2: building and say, wow, this is sustainable. This is from
Speaker 2: a responsible source. It's a passive design. I can feel
Speaker 2: it and I have this enjoyment of the object because
Speaker 2: it is sustainable actually. And
Speaker 1: Peter you are not alone in this sustainable furniture game.
Speaker 1: There are those who are making furniture out of discarded
Speaker 1: chopsticks or sofas, made of discarded clothes or a cabinet
Speaker 1: made of scrap timber and so on. So as an
Speaker 1: architect and also sustainability advocate, how do you see the
Speaker 1: future of furniture evolving? I
Speaker 2: think that the real future trend for sustainable furniture is
Speaker 2: in terms of transparency in supply chain
Speaker 2: so that you buy a furniture and like a piece
Speaker 2: of furniture and like a piece of clothing or an
Speaker 2: article of clothing, there's a tag on it and that
Speaker 2: tag allows you to understand where it was made, what
Speaker 2: it's made from? What's the carbon footprint of those materials?
Speaker 2: You know how much transport was required to bring it
Speaker 2: to where you are?
Speaker 2: I think that that is an increasing trend with a
Speaker 2: lot of building materials. I think in the eu environmental
Speaker 2: product declarations are now required for public procurement at least.
Speaker 2: So there's regulatory pressure in certain parts of the world
Speaker 2: for this to happen. I think consumers are also really
Speaker 2: interested in this as well. What is this time bringing
Speaker 2: to my house and what has it done to the
Speaker 2: world to reach me? So where
Speaker 1: are we in the process right now? Are we
Speaker 1: the baby step phase or,
Speaker 2: you know, I think that we've just passed through a
Speaker 2: baby step phases and I think that we're going to
Speaker 2: be taking big steps soon from a personal standpoint. When
Speaker 2: I was working on this furniture, I wanted to know
Speaker 2: what's the carbon footprint of the material that I'm getting.
Speaker 2: And when I was first starting, it was quite hard
Speaker 2: to find materials where there was declared numbers for carbon
Speaker 2: footprint for the environmental product declaration. But as I've been
Speaker 2: working on this for four years, it will be five
Speaker 2: years soon.
Speaker 2: That information is becoming increasingly available. There's also really interesting
Speaker 2: developments like software that now allows us to create our
Speaker 2: own environmental product declarations for our products, right? Like analysis
Speaker 2: software that almost anyone can use and it allows you
Speaker 2: to declare I made this furniture. But look, this is
Speaker 2: third party verified. This is the carbon footprint of this
Speaker 2: design that I made.
Speaker 2: So just like a few things like that, I think
Speaker 2: really grease the wheel and hopefully has a snowball
Speaker 1: effect. Any other cool alternative materials that you see?
Speaker 2: So, OK, folded paper, great, very sustainable. Uh I have
Speaker 2: a colleague, Carlos Bon at SUTD who creates designs out
Speaker 2: of 3D printed, recycled plastic, even including ocean plastic, amazing
Speaker 2: work and really cool sustainability concept. We also have a
Speaker 2: group at SUTD that works
Speaker 2: with textiles which are custom fabricated textiles that can be
Speaker 2: knitted into any form or configuration and strengthened in specific ways.
Speaker 2: And this is really materially efficient because you can have
Speaker 2: this very thin membrane that you strengthen in very strategic
Speaker 2: points that can create enclosures or furniture or artwork. So
Speaker 2: those are two areas that I think are really important
Speaker 2: on the horizon as well for sustainable furniture and sustainable design,
Speaker 2: 3d printing with recycled materials
Speaker 2: and digital textiles as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating stuff. Sounds very promising, Peter. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming in. Shedding light on this very innovative
Speaker 1: world of sustainable furniture design.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for inviting me. It's been a great pleasure.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to my guest, Peter and to our listeners.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed this episode. The team behind this
Speaker 1: podcast is Tiffany Sn Joanne Chan and Christina Robert. Till
Speaker 1: next week, I'm Julie Yu signing off.