Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast.
Speaker 1: Hi there. Welcome back to the Climate Conversations. I'm your
Speaker 1: host Julie Yu. And today we're getting you up to
Speaker 1: speed on what's likely to be the future of flying
Speaker 1: sustainable aviation fuel or sa aviation accounts for 2 to 3%
Speaker 1: of global carbon emissions. And it's facing a long and
Speaker 1: arduous journey towards achieving net zero emissions by 2050. Could
Speaker 1: S A be its savior. Singapore is among the leaders
Speaker 1: in this area
Speaker 1: and the topic was a big talking point at the
Speaker 1: recent Singapore Air Show. CN A's Roland Lim led our
Speaker 1: coverage and he joins us now,
Speaker 1: Roland. Welcome to the climate conversations. Thanks for having me, Julie.
Speaker 1: All right. So Roland, the theme of sustainability was at
Speaker 1: the core of this event, talk to us about the
Speaker 1: sentiment around sustainability at the air Show. And to what
Speaker 1: extent did you think the industry players were really feeling
Speaker 1: the pressure? Yes, feeling the pressure sustainability was in Singapore
Speaker 1: announcing a green fuel jet mandate that was actually of
Speaker 1: importance in terms of protecting the environment.
Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, though, the vibe
Speaker 1: that I was getting was that the industry still remains
Speaker 1: divided over how to achieve net carbon zero emissions by 2050.
Speaker 1: The industry says yes, net 0 2050 but they are
Speaker 1: actually targeting 2030 in terms of their aircraft running on
Speaker 1: a 100% sustainable aviation fuel. And then you have the
Speaker 1: airline bosses, the green fuel producers and the manufacturers
Speaker 1: contradicting each other and pointing fingers over the thorniest issue
Speaker 1: which is who is responsible for the slow take up
Speaker 1: of staff or sustainable aviation fuel. Willie Walsh, he is
Speaker 1: Director general of Iata International Air Transport Association. He said
Speaker 1: that the only way to achieve net zero was really
Speaker 1: with the widespread usage of s and that demand isn't
Speaker 1: an issue because every drop of staff that is being
Speaker 1: produced is used by the airlines. The companies that produce
Speaker 1: tell a different story. Su H who is VP of
Speaker 1: Asia pack fuels at Exxon Mobil said that staff demand
Speaker 1: was very low and that was discouraging producers from producing more.
Speaker 1: And then you have the environmental groups. They say that
Speaker 1: the blame game overs uptake is really exemplifying the industry,
Speaker 1: setting arbitrary targets with actually no agreed upon road map
Speaker 1: on
Speaker 1: their transport and environment. That's a Brussels based NGO is
Speaker 1: actually calling for regulators to take control and to put
Speaker 1: strict mandates into place for self production and for use.
Speaker 1: So that's what Singapore is doing. And remember you hear
Speaker 1: that often bandied around figure which is air travel contributes
Speaker 1: 2 to 3% of total carbon dioxide emissions globally.
Speaker 1: However, that really is a well rehearsed figure because yes,
Speaker 1: the key is 3%. But that number is constantly expanding
Speaker 1: because it doesn't take into account economies and the percentage
Speaker 1: growth of air travel that's compounded annually. So really it
Speaker 1: is imperative to decarbonize over the next 26 years or
Speaker 1: so headed towards 2050 going net zero for any industry.
Speaker 1: It's an ambitious target, right? And you were talking about
Speaker 1: the pressure that all these industry players are feeling and
Speaker 1: different
Speaker 1: voices that you've heard. But I'm curious to find out
Speaker 1: some examples of specific sustainability goals or strategies that some
Speaker 1: of the players are implementing from a business aviation standpoint.
Speaker 1: The industry segment is increasingly becoming targets of environmental activism.
Speaker 1: One private jet maker I spoke to Bombardier says that
Speaker 1: they take sustainability very seriously because the current trend right
Speaker 1: now it really is to blame business jets or private
Speaker 1: jets for the carbon dioxide emissions out there.
Speaker 1: Celebrities like Taylor Swift, she's in Singapore. I know she
Speaker 1: has gotten a lot of flag for her use of
Speaker 1: private jets. So Nilesh Paay who is regional VP for
Speaker 1: Asia Pacific and China, he is of course pushing for
Speaker 1: staff usage and recycling as much as possible. This is
Speaker 1: what he had to say.
Speaker 2: We are the market leader in sustainability in business aircraft.
Speaker 2: So we are committed to it. We are looking at
Speaker 2: short term, medium term and long term growth from a
Speaker 2: short term perspective, we are the only oe that
Speaker 2: does all our flight operations 100%. Sa We also publish
Speaker 2: environmental product declarations to track the life cycle of our product.
Speaker 2: And we are also innovating doing a lot of research
Speaker 2: in terms of our Eco jet, which you can look up,
Speaker 2: which basically tries to do a blended wing technology to
Speaker 2: minimize the carbon emissions.
Speaker 1: So the industry really is feeling the headwinds and committed
Speaker 1: to doing something about it, Julie. Yeah, so let's zoom
Speaker 1: into sa right. Sustainable aviation fuel. It's been touted as
Speaker 1: the best way to take the carbon out of flying.
Speaker 1: And you've done a comprehensive explainer on TV. Could you
Speaker 1: tell us what is it exactly? Well, sustainable aviation fuel
Speaker 1: s really, it just is a type
Speaker 1: fuel, it powers commercial jets with all the properties of
Speaker 1: traditional jet fuel or kerosene but with a smaller carbon
Speaker 1: footprint because if done right, studies show that s can
Speaker 1: reduce carbon emissions by up to 80% compared to a
Speaker 1: traditional fossil fuel based jet fuel. For example, a Boeing
Speaker 1: 737 max currently flies on a 50 50 million
Speaker 1: of traditional jet fuel and s but the industry really
Speaker 1: is working towards 100% staff usage in the future. It's
Speaker 1: a big game changer. Is it? Yes, there are huge advantages.
Speaker 1: One is that, for example, staff can be blended with
Speaker 1: traditional jet fuel and it can also be used with
Speaker 1: existing planes. You don't have to retrofit any planes and
Speaker 1: the infrastructure of airports remain the same.
Speaker 1: But the key difference really is that instead of being
Speaker 1: made from petroleum sa is made from renewable sources, which
Speaker 1: is why it leads to net carbon emissions over the
Speaker 1: entire life cycle of that fuel. That's why s a
Speaker 1: currently costs 3 to 5 times more than traditional jet fuel.
Speaker 1: And not all staff are created equal because that's firstly
Speaker 1: pure biofuels. So that's where you grow something crops, sugarcane,
Speaker 1: palm oil, and you make fuel out of that. And
Speaker 1: then
Speaker 1: that's the waste based fuels, which is from sustainable biomass.
Speaker 1: So your agricultural waste, even your recycling cooking oil, for example,
Speaker 1: that also can be turned into S A right? And
Speaker 1: you've had a chance to talk to industry players that
Speaker 1: have already adopted or have plans to scale up the
Speaker 1: purchase of sa what insights have you gathered from them? Yes,
Speaker 1: I spoke to Finnish Energy Giant Nest. They are the
Speaker 1: biggest producer s in the world and
Speaker 1: heavily investing to push global staff production capacity to around
Speaker 1: 2.2 million tons annually. Currently only produces less than half
Speaker 1: of that 1.2 million tons last year and they make
Speaker 1: it from renewable waste and biomass. Sami Yahi Hainan, who
Speaker 1: is the VP of Renewable Aviation Asia Pacific at Nest Day.
Speaker 1: He told me that getting sufficient or certainty of demand
Speaker 1: for staff is really critical in order to unlock the
Speaker 1: investments to scale up production
Speaker 1: of the capacity for sustainable aviation fuel. And remember that
Speaker 1: chicken and egg situation, I mentioned earlier airline saying that
Speaker 1: they're using every drop of it and then producers saying
Speaker 1: that they're not producing enough. And then the energy supply
Speaker 1: is also saying that demand isn't enough to ramp up production. Well,
Speaker 1: getting off the ground really is crucial as semi hein
Speaker 1: and of Nestle told me earlier, have a listen, it
Speaker 1: is the right pathway. Certainly it's not
Speaker 1: only pathway. I think the first thing to highlight is
Speaker 1: that aviation is a so called hard to obey sector.
Speaker 1: We will need all solutions available to get to the
Speaker 1: goal of net zero flying by 2050. So more fuel
Speaker 1: efficient aircraft better air traffic management, maybe even electric or
Speaker 1: hydrogen powered planes need to play a role. But the
Speaker 1: fact remains that
Speaker 1: a large share of aircraft will likely remain dependent on
Speaker 1: liquid fuels. And hence the role of sustainable aviation fuels
Speaker 1: is so large for aviation's climate goals. A estimates that 65%
Speaker 1: of the required emission reductions for the net zero goal
Speaker 1: need to come from the use of.
Speaker 1: So not all regulatory support really is important to create
Speaker 1: that required demand certainty for s but there are other
Speaker 1: aspects as well the greener planes and investing in new
Speaker 1: tech just as important as you earlier mentioned. Currently, global
Speaker 1: supply of staff barely meets what 1% of the aviation industry,
Speaker 1: a total fuel requirement. So what is holding it back
Speaker 1: from wider quicker adoption? What are the biggest dumpling blocks here? Well,
Speaker 1: stepping up staff
Speaker 1: really is a complex and multifaceted endeavor. It requires a
Speaker 1: lot of things considered efforts by government industry, stakeholders, as
Speaker 1: well as the research community and the government and the
Speaker 1: regulatory bodies in respective economies really need to provide incentives
Speaker 1: and subsidies and tax breaks in order to encourage staff production.
Speaker 1: So that's one thing that hasn't been done aggressively yet
Speaker 1: by the government. And according to the trade body, Iata
Speaker 1: S really needs to
Speaker 1: up production in order to achieve net zero. We are
Speaker 1: talking something like 13 million tons needed annually by 2030
Speaker 1: towards that 2050 target. And as I've said earlier, Nest Day,
Speaker 1: the biggest producer of staff is only producing just a
Speaker 1: little bit more than 2 million currently. So 30,000,002 million,
Speaker 1: it's a big gap and also it requires mandates that
Speaker 1: airlines themselves use a certain percentage of staff in their
Speaker 1: fuel mix then currently. So that will
Speaker 1: actually also guarantee a market for separate producers out there.
Speaker 1: But I have to say at the same time, all
Speaker 1: this is making environmentalists nervous. I remember you're using renewable
Speaker 1: waste which is fine, recycled biomass, that's fine. But growing
Speaker 1: crops for the purposes of producing biofuels for that means
Speaker 1: that you need large parcels of land and there are concerns,
Speaker 1: of course that the change of land use and deforestation
Speaker 1: will also worsen as demand of staff catches up worldwide
Speaker 1: and it all
Speaker 1: comes down to money too. Right. It has to make
Speaker 1: business sense. And you did mention that right now sa
Speaker 1: is what three times more expensive than the current jet
Speaker 1: fuel that you're using. So if large scale, let's say
Speaker 1: production kicks in, could the prices come down significantly? Well,
Speaker 1: the main thing about traditional jet fuel is that it
Speaker 1: doesn't price in the externalities and the environmental emissions is
Speaker 1: a cause by digging the oil or fuel out of
Speaker 1: the ground. Well, that is in fact when you talk
Speaker 1: about
Speaker 1: jet fuel prices. So you're not really comparing apple and apples,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, staff won't actually reach parity
Speaker 1: with jet fuel anytime soon. It will come down with
Speaker 1: more investments, economies of scale. But what industry players tell
Speaker 1: me is that regulatory framework is really important in terms
Speaker 1: of supporting the ramp up of production in order to
Speaker 1: get investments to increase capacity. And of course, enabling the
Speaker 1: airlines in a competitive market to use it.
Speaker 1: What I says is that sustainable fuel is going to
Speaker 1: stay more expensive than traditional jet fuel even with large
Speaker 1: scale production. Simply because the low availability of sustainable feedstock,
Speaker 1: as well as the continuing development of other new production
Speaker 1: technologies and with more players in the marketplace as the
Speaker 1: staff production matures, the price is expected to come down.
Speaker 1: Although we have yet to see
Speaker 1: how significant that's something that the industry players themselves couldn't
Speaker 1: give me an answer to fuel already is one of
Speaker 1: the biggest costs for our airlines and the industry. So
Speaker 1: I guess the decision to get consumers to chip in
Speaker 1: didn't really come as a huge surprise from 2026 travelers
Speaker 1: will be paying more for flights leaving Singapore to support
Speaker 1: this greener jet fuel. Why is this significant and why
Speaker 1: is Singapore moving so fast on this? Right? I think
Speaker 1: that the news really did make
Speaker 1: headlines, not just Singapore headlines but international headlines. And it
Speaker 1: was very positively received by all the aviation players because
Speaker 1: it sets an early example for other countries to actually
Speaker 1: mandates usage. Remember back in November on staff usage in
Speaker 1: the region, the Association of Asia Pacific Airlines or a
Speaker 1: a they set a target for all its members, the
Speaker 1: Asian Pacific Airlines to adopt five percents usage by 2030.
Speaker 1: And that was a signal of demand for fuel producers
Speaker 1: out there. But that was a target. What the Singapore
Speaker 1: authorities have actually done is to actually crystallize it into
Speaker 1: a green fuel levy. So as you say, air travelers
Speaker 1: now have to bear part of Singapore's green aviation transition.
Speaker 1: All departing flights from Singapore will have to use 1%
Speaker 1: s by 2026 rises up to 5% by 2030. They
Speaker 1: have given examples based on 2026 prices, let's say, for example,
Speaker 1: price of
Speaker 1: economy ticket from Singapore to Thailand, that's going to add
Speaker 1: three Singapore dollars. That's about $2.20 us. Singapore to Tokyo,
Speaker 1: that's going to add an additional $6. Singapore to London
Speaker 1: another $16 or about $12 us. So it's not a
Speaker 1: big sum to pay currently, but of course, that will
Speaker 1: increase with more staff usage being mandated. I know you
Speaker 1: travel a lot as a customer. Do you think this
Speaker 1: is a reasonable price point to start with? I don't
Speaker 1: think I
Speaker 1: to be using myself as an example. But what I
Speaker 1: can say though is that the price rise as described
Speaker 1: by the Singapore Transport Minister Qi Hong Tat, he described
Speaker 1: it as manageable and I would argue that look, you're
Speaker 1: going to be paying more than what the numbers I
Speaker 1: just rattled out for travel insurance. So certainly a small
Speaker 1: price to pay for making sure that your carbon footprint
Speaker 1: is reduced somewhat. And don't forget the Civil Aviation Authority
Speaker 1: of Singapore.
Speaker 1: She developed this plan in consultation with industry and other stakeholders.
Speaker 1: So obviously they were supportive of this. What I can
Speaker 1: also say is that Willie Walsh at Iata said that
Speaker 1: he was also very supportive of this, but he also
Speaker 1: cautioned that taxation to pay for aviation sustainability. They might
Speaker 1: not reduce the number of flights, but they could actually
Speaker 1: price some people out of flying further down the road
Speaker 1: and that could lead to empty seats on planes which
Speaker 1: isn't good for the environment.
Speaker 1: And then another person I spoke to Louis Philippe de Oliveira,
Speaker 1: who is Director General of the Airports Council International. They
Speaker 1: represent most of the airports in the world. They said
Speaker 1: that governments really need to invest in new refineries to
Speaker 1: help bring down the cost. And so he's saying that
Speaker 1: the solution isn't about capacity restrictions. The solution isn't about
Speaker 1: taxing the travelers but really the solution is finding ways
Speaker 1: to work together to increase production capacity.
Speaker 1: So beyond sustainable fuel, Roland and what are other green
Speaker 1: measures or solutions that were discussed at the event? We
Speaker 1: talked a lot about S A but there's also notable
Speaker 1: advancements in aircraft design manufacturing to enhance fuel efficiency. And
Speaker 1: one that comes to mind for me was the next
Speaker 1: generation jet planes that will be using half the fuel
Speaker 1: that they're using today for the same range as well
Speaker 1: as the same payload. There was this California base
Speaker 1: company called Jet zero. It's actually coming up with a
Speaker 1: blended wing body plane. Remember the basic design of a
Speaker 1: commercial airplane hasn't changed in the last 60 years, you
Speaker 1: have a long tube and you stick wings on the
Speaker 1: side of it. But the basic idea really with a
Speaker 1: blended wing body is to create a plane with less
Speaker 1: drag and to be more fuel efficient. So they do
Speaker 1: this by making the wing of the plane broader, so
Speaker 1: it becomes more stable
Speaker 1: and then they shorten the tail, it doesn't need a
Speaker 1: tail surface. So the fuselage becomes shorter and then you
Speaker 1: have more volume in the middle of the plane. If
Speaker 1: you can imagine that the closest I can describe it
Speaker 1: really is that it looks a little bit like the
Speaker 1: stealth plane, the B two bomber, if you've ever seen
Speaker 1: one of those. So that is how commercial planes could
Speaker 1: look like in the future. One of the main challenges
Speaker 1: for holding manufacturers back all these years was because of pressurization,
Speaker 1: the irregular shape of this BB plane, it makes it
Speaker 1: more difficult to equalize pressure in the cabin. What's happened
Speaker 1: since then, of course is that NASA, they've made tremendous
Speaker 1: advances in materials. They've come up with a composite material
Speaker 1: that's both strong and light and that's the breakthrough really,
Speaker 1: that's helping jet zero. And with this technology, you're able
Speaker 1: to build passenger planes to be able to build cargo
Speaker 1: planes
Speaker 1: as well as a fuel tank if you want. And
Speaker 1: the best part about this is that actually will fit
Speaker 1: into existing airport infrastructure. So you don't have to change
Speaker 1: the configuration of an airport. Jet zero really has an
Speaker 1: ambitious target of putting one into service. One of these
Speaker 1: blended wing aircraft as soon as 2030 they are being
Speaker 1: supported by the US Air Force. They got a $235
Speaker 1: million contract recently
Speaker 1: to develop a full scale demonstrator. That's a working model
Speaker 1: to test flight test flights happening in 2027. So they
Speaker 1: are expecting big things. Here's what Tom o'leary ceo of
Speaker 1: Jet Zero had to say about sustainable aviation. We've been
Speaker 1: solving problems of sustainability
Speaker 1: in aviation for so long based almost entirely on propulsion.
Speaker 1: When we move to a new airframe that is more efficient.
Speaker 1: We enable virtually all the other forms. We make sa
Speaker 1: more affordable. We make electric, more workable along with hydrogen, right?
Speaker 1: Because
Speaker 1: electric requires batteries which weigh a lot. So you need
Speaker 1: a more efficient airframe, right? Hydrogen requires a lot of volume.
Speaker 1: So you need a volumetrically efficient airframe. We provide all
Speaker 1: those things uh with this one airframe advancement, he's essentially
Speaker 1: saying that they are blended wing body planes will be
Speaker 1: future proofed to work with either elect
Speaker 1: batteries or hydrogen fuel in the distant future. Ok. Hydrogen,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that. Hydrogen powered planes. We've heard a
Speaker 1: lot about it. What is it? And how far has
Speaker 1: it developed? Yes, hydrogen powered airplanes uses, of course, hydrogen
Speaker 1: gas as the power source and the gas is burned
Speaker 1: in a jet engine.
Speaker 1: Now, here's how the system works. Typically, the wings of
Speaker 1: a plane stores the jet fuel and that drives the engines.
Speaker 1: But in this case, hydrogen gas that's stored in the
Speaker 1: fuselage at the back of the plane in the tanks
Speaker 1: and then it gets fed into the jet engines at
Speaker 1: the wings of the plane because this is due to
Speaker 1: the highly volatile nature of hydrogen gas. And that's why
Speaker 1: you need a cylindrical shaped storage tanks for thermal efficiency.
Speaker 1: So the hydrogen gets
Speaker 1: into the engines at the wings and this is where
Speaker 1: the magic really happens because hydrogen is mixed with oxygen
Speaker 1: or air and then it goes through fuel cells or
Speaker 1: battery cells and that creates electricity that runs the motors.
Speaker 1: The only by product of that is water totally green.
Speaker 1: But the problem is of course that the aircraft stores
Speaker 1: this hydrogen in gaseous forms at the back of the plane.
Speaker 1: There are also alternatives to store
Speaker 1: hydrogen as liquid form which occupies less space, less heavy,
Speaker 1: but the tanks themselves has to be kept very cold
Speaker 1: and the liquid of course, needs to be converted back
Speaker 1: into gas before it's used. What the developers are hoping
Speaker 1: for is that maybe hydrogen gas can be used for
Speaker 1: short haul flights. Liquid hydrogen can be used for longer
Speaker 1: haul flights and turned into gas use for as and
Speaker 1: when needed. It's still very far
Speaker 1: off. They could start maybe coming into the scene by
Speaker 1: late 20 thirties and then scaling up through 20 fifties.
Speaker 1: But don't expect hydrogen planes to be commercialized until way
Speaker 1: past 2050 where up to maybe a third of the
Speaker 1: aviation fleet could be hydrogen by then. So still quite
Speaker 1: a way off. President of Airbus Asia Pacific Anan Stanley,
Speaker 1: he
Speaker 1: of course, is very supportive of the technology as Airbus
Speaker 1: has always been because they have been doing research and
Speaker 1: development on it. And he's saying that it really ticks
Speaker 1: all the boxes, it's safe, it's versatile, it's lightweight in
Speaker 1: terms of storage. This is what he had to say.
Speaker 1: We are fully committed to bringing a hydrogen fueled aircraft
Speaker 1: by 2035. It's coming along very well. I mean, we
Speaker 1: are doing a lot of work on it year over
Speaker 1: year
Speaker 1: and we're looking at multiple different prototypes and vectors for
Speaker 1: that aircraft, whether it is combustion, which means we burn
Speaker 1: the hydrogen or it's fuel cell based. But we're very
Speaker 1: excited and working a lot on that.
Speaker 1: So Airbus believes that hydrogen can potentially cut aircraft emissions
Speaker 1: by half and while hydrogen is a clean fuel and
Speaker 1: it's green really depends on the carbon footprint that is
Speaker 1: used to actually produce it. So unlike s existing planes
Speaker 1: cannot be retrofitted. So using hydrogen as a source, you
Speaker 1: need a new plane and the infrastructure at the airports
Speaker 1: that also needs to change in order to receive as
Speaker 1: well as to store,
Speaker 1: to deliver hydrogen either in liquid or gas forms to
Speaker 1: the planes themselves. Based on all the experts and industry
Speaker 1: players that you've spoken to can sustainable aviation truly take off.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say can sustainable aviation take off. It has to,
Speaker 1: it will, you know the saying that it takes an
Speaker 1: entire village to enable a plane to take off. What
Speaker 1: sustainable aviation means is that it's going to take an
Speaker 1: even bigger village. Essentially
Speaker 1: the best analogy I can give you really is that
Speaker 1: it's several bridges all leading to the same destination. And
Speaker 1: as time goes by, you're going to find that certain
Speaker 1: bridges are going to be preferred to others. So that's
Speaker 1: the pathway to sustainable aviation. Look, 20 years ago, you
Speaker 1: barely saw any electric cars on the roads today. They
Speaker 1: are the number one best seller. I mean, even in China,
Speaker 1: you can only buy an electric car. It is the
Speaker 1: only option.
Speaker 1: So sustainable aviation usage of s hydrogen planes. When they
Speaker 1: come into existence, all these things are certainty. It's only
Speaker 1: a matter of time.
Speaker 1: Well, Roland, a pleasure to have you on the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time. It's been very insightful.
Speaker 1: My thanks to Roland and to our listeners, you can
Speaker 1: find Roland's coverage at the Singapore Air Show and his
Speaker 1: full interviews on CN A's youtube channel and on our
Speaker 1: website CN A dot Asia, the team behind this podcast
Speaker 1: is Tiffany Tsai, Nguyen, Joan Chen and Christina Robert. Till
Speaker 1: next week, I'm Julie Yu.