1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A podcast. 2 00:00:05,370 --> 00:00:09,049 Speaker 1: The student teacher relationship has changed over the years, but 3 00:00:09,050 --> 00:00:12,539 Speaker 1: has it been for the better or the worse? Recently, 4 00:00:12,539 --> 00:00:15,970 Speaker 1: a student from ST Andrews Secondary was filmed threatening to 5 00:00:15,980 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: end the life of his teacher. The clip went viral 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,439 Speaker 1: and the school later issued a statement to say the 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,030 Speaker 1: student has been disciplined, but that has 8 00:00:24,050 --> 00:00:26,940 Speaker 1: not been the only shocking case of young people misbehaving. 9 00:00:26,950 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: On the 18th of august three teenagers were filmed assaulting 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:32,660 Speaker 1: a girl in a multi story car park in Bangkok. 11 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:36,350 Speaker 1: A 32nd video of them punching, kicking and slapping the 12 00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:40,210 Speaker 1: female victim when viral too. They were arrested by police. 13 00:00:40,260 --> 00:00:42,729 Speaker 1: They were only 15 years old. 14 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:44,890 Speaker 1: So today we asked, so what is going on with 15 00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:48,790 Speaker 1: our youth? Are these just a small, dysfunctional minority of 16 00:00:48,790 --> 00:00:51,770 Speaker 1: the larger population or is it a sign that things 17 00:00:51,770 --> 00:00:54,850 Speaker 1: have changed in a big way in our schools. Should 18 00:00:54,860 --> 00:00:59,650 Speaker 1: classroom management change? Can teachers really handle their students today? 19 00:00:59,660 --> 00:01:01,910 Speaker 1: And if not what needs to be done 20 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:06,810 Speaker 1: with me to talk about this issue? Ah dr wang guiming, 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,350 Speaker 1: senior research scientist at the National Institute of Education, also 22 00:01:10,350 --> 00:01:13,300 Speaker 1: a former teacher and an educational psychologist. Hi 23 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: everyone, Thanks for having me here, 24 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:18,369 Speaker 1: Ryan on a 24 year old university student and founder 25 00:01:18,370 --> 00:01:22,530 Speaker 1: of the catalyst collective. A youth initiative to address mental health. 26 00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:25,259 Speaker 1: Hi steven, thank you for having me here today and 27 00:01:25,260 --> 00:01:27,649 Speaker 1: our third guest has asked to remain anonymous 28 00:01:27,660 --> 00:01:30,390 Speaker 1: so we'll just call her Sarah. She was a teacher 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,380 Speaker 1: at an all girls school for several years, but in 30 00:01:33,380 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: june this year she decided to take a break. Hi steven. 31 00:01:36,650 --> 00:01:40,470 Speaker 1: Okay folks, thanks for coming on. Let's get cracking at 32 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,660 Speaker 1: this issue. One of the factors that are driving bad behavior. 33 00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: I mean when I first saw the videos, you know, 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: my heart sang, how can a student be? So I 35 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,470 Speaker 1: guess disrespectful to the teacher and how could a bunch 36 00:01:50,470 --> 00:01:52,380 Speaker 1: of 15 year olds be so violent 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,540 Speaker 1: Sarah, I'll start with you because you taught in an 38 00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:58,690 Speaker 1: all girls school. Does this surprise you? No, not at 39 00:01:58,690 --> 00:02:02,330 Speaker 1: all Stephen, I think at least for my peers, educators, 40 00:02:02,330 --> 00:02:04,180 Speaker 1: this is not shocking. I think 41 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: perhaps is more shocking to the public because they are 42 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,910 Speaker 1: seeing this for the first time. I think this has 43 00:02:09,910 --> 00:02:14,180 Speaker 1: always happened. It's just not recorded and posted online. Okay. 44 00:02:14,180 --> 00:02:16,260 Speaker 1: So now that everyone has a phone and you know, 45 00:02:16,260 --> 00:02:19,950 Speaker 1: social media so prolific. But some argue that these are 46 00:02:19,950 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: just kids being kids, they kind of have to figure 47 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,470 Speaker 1: it out on their own and after a while everything 48 00:02:24,470 --> 00:02:26,450 Speaker 1: will be okay. How do you respond to that 49 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: from that video clip being a psychologist, I tend to 50 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:30,470 Speaker 2: think about what 51 00:02:30,483 --> 00:02:33,813 Speaker 2: actually were the triggers. So to me, any misbehavior is 52 00:02:33,813 --> 00:02:36,803 Speaker 2: actually a form of communication. The first thing that struck 53 00:02:36,803 --> 00:02:39,203 Speaker 2: me was not like why did the boy, you know, 54 00:02:39,203 --> 00:02:41,733 Speaker 2: shouting and tracking the teacher, but what was the cause 55 00:02:41,733 --> 00:02:44,673 Speaker 2: of it, Sarah will probably attest to this as well 56 00:02:44,683 --> 00:02:47,383 Speaker 2: as teachers will probably tend to maybe stop shop and say, 57 00:02:47,383 --> 00:02:50,033 Speaker 2: hey look what is going on here and actually try 58 00:02:50,032 --> 00:02:52,283 Speaker 2: to find out what is the reason. So based on 59 00:02:52,282 --> 00:02:54,703 Speaker 2: that clip, I'm also quite sure if that was actually 60 00:02:54,703 --> 00:02:56,510 Speaker 2: a teacher that the guy was 61 00:02:56,526 --> 00:02:59,166 Speaker 2: actually shouting back at the students as well, so going 62 00:02:59,166 --> 00:03:01,026 Speaker 2: out to all teachers, all of us, I think would 63 00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:04,166 Speaker 2: probably notice we tried to main calm and not aggravate 64 00:03:04,166 --> 00:03:06,196 Speaker 2: the whole situation, especially when you see the child is 65 00:03:06,196 --> 00:03:09,986 Speaker 2: already losing his temper and shouting and gesturing away as 66 00:03:09,986 --> 00:03:12,266 Speaker 2: the adults in the classroom, we probably would have to 67 00:03:12,266 --> 00:03:14,706 Speaker 2: remain calm and be as objective as possible. 68 00:03:14,716 --> 00:03:17,066 Speaker 1: So, so there's a good chance that this wasn't just 69 00:03:17,066 --> 00:03:18,816 Speaker 1: a one off thing, there was a build up to it, 70 00:03:18,816 --> 00:03:22,566 Speaker 1: There's probably other smaller skirmishes that led to this day, 71 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,570 Speaker 1: Ryan, you are the youngest among us here, the most 72 00:03:25,570 --> 00:03:28,389 Speaker 1: recent student, I would say that and you share with 73 00:03:28,389 --> 00:03:30,750 Speaker 1: us that you were also once a victim of bullying. 74 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,500 Speaker 1: How did you feel when you saw those videos? I 75 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:36,050 Speaker 1: think I really feel on both sides be as a teacher, 76 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:38,130 Speaker 1: but as a student and even as a student who 77 00:03:38,130 --> 00:03:41,230 Speaker 1: was a victim of bullying, really agree with screaming as well. 78 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: When I was bullied, I started developing depression, anxiety 79 00:03:45,660 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: and I don't even know what was anxiety back then 80 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,450 Speaker 1: and I was trying to articulate that to my teachers 81 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:53,470 Speaker 1: and they were saying that mental health doesn't exist. It's 82 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,940 Speaker 1: on your head with that kind of outlets, right? And 83 00:03:55,950 --> 00:03:59,350 Speaker 1: all being shut down. I start feeling like there's a 84 00:03:59,350 --> 00:04:01,750 Speaker 1: lot of angle and there's a lot of sadness being repressed. 85 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,970 Speaker 1: All of this angle and problems just repressed within yourself. 86 00:04:05,980 --> 00:04:07,660 Speaker 1: The more you get the trigger, you just snap and 87 00:04:07,660 --> 00:04:09,820 Speaker 1: you just snap back. Looking at the clips. I would 88 00:04:09,820 --> 00:04:12,090 Speaker 1: say that it's not that I don't feel anything. But 89 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: having been placed in that position before, I just find 90 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:15,510 Speaker 1: it quite sad that 91 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: What is happening 10 years ago is still happening now. 92 00:04:18,410 --> 00:04:22,790 Speaker 1: Why can't the victims just escape? Why can't they just 93 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,589 Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to it and ignore the bullies? 94 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,989 Speaker 1: There's this concept immediate environment. If your immediate environment is 95 00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: consisting of this kind of people all the time and 96 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,659 Speaker 1: you do not have family support. For example, you need 97 00:04:36,660 --> 00:04:38,469 Speaker 1: to have a school school education and you have to 98 00:04:38,470 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: go to that secondary school. You don't have the power 99 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,310 Speaker 1: to change the environment. You'll be forced to go face 100 00:04:43,510 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: the same factors over and over again. And the only 101 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: way to get up is either adult fecal stepping in 102 00:04:49,210 --> 00:04:54,970 Speaker 1: or removing you entirely from the environment itself. Sometimes to 103 00:04:54,970 --> 00:04:56,550 Speaker 1: remove yourself from the environment. 104 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: It's not that straightforward and especially as a 13 14 105 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,630 Speaker 1: year old, how do you remove yourself from the environment? 106 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,140 Speaker 1: So so someone else needs to help you get out 107 00:05:06,150 --> 00:05:09,310 Speaker 1: of that space, Is it fair to expect teachers to 108 00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:12,550 Speaker 1: do that? Maybe we'll ask the teachers. I think there's 109 00:05:12,550 --> 00:05:15,740 Speaker 1: only so much a teacher can do, especially if it's 110 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: a female teacher working in an all boys school, 111 00:05:19,070 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: there is already the lack of ability in terms of 112 00:05:23,050 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: the strength, right? If suddenly a male student comes charging 113 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,130 Speaker 1: forth very violently, how can the teacher protect themselves? Likewise, 114 00:05:31,140 --> 00:05:33,070 Speaker 1: if it's a male teacher in an all girls school, 115 00:05:33,070 --> 00:05:36,340 Speaker 1: then it's also tricky. Right, So there's some sensitivities, the 116 00:05:36,339 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: things that we should be trained. 117 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,510 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we are not, there are courses for us to 118 00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:45,799 Speaker 1: attend in terms of managing challenging classroom behavior, but not 119 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,170 Speaker 1: to the extent of the kind of behavior we've seen 120 00:05:48,170 --> 00:05:51,690 Speaker 1: in the clip which is really escalated very heated and 121 00:05:51,700 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 1: potentially very violent. So, Sarah you're saying there is some 122 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: kind of training in terms of like classroom management, but 123 00:05:58,210 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: is it compulsory for all teachers to take? And what 124 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,810 Speaker 1: kind of training do you think it's effective enough compared 125 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:05,270 Speaker 1: to real world experiences 126 00:06:05,660 --> 00:06:09,470 Speaker 1: when we attend these courses and they are mostly optional. 127 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:14,620 Speaker 1: It's always a theoretical hypothetical situation, of course. What we 128 00:06:14,620 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: see when we step in the school is really the 129 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,500 Speaker 1: reality on the ground and nothing can prepare us for this. 130 00:06:20,510 --> 00:06:23,330 Speaker 1: Only those teachers within that school can suddenly pre 131 00:06:23,350 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: Thank you. I was talking to someone just earlier today 132 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,780 Speaker 1: about even something as simple as female teachers being careful 133 00:06:30,790 --> 00:06:34,740 Speaker 1: as to not wear skirts because of upskirting incident, right? 134 00:06:34,740 --> 00:06:36,950 Speaker 1: So these are things that they won't know until they 135 00:06:36,950 --> 00:06:38,700 Speaker 1: step into that school and then they hear from their 136 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: peers and their colleagues who advised them warn them 137 00:06:41,190 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 2: teachers, we are finite counselors. During my time we had compulsory. 138 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,490 Speaker 2: So let's say 100 hours of training counseling is one 139 00:06:48,490 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 2: of them. And I'm sure for every school they will 140 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,260 Speaker 2: have its own structure. So I guess for teachers, what's 141 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:55,070 Speaker 2: really important is for you to know what is your 142 00:06:55,070 --> 00:06:59,890 Speaker 2: school's S. O. P. For handling misbehaviors or emergency situations? 143 00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:02,670 Speaker 2: As teachers, you do not know it all? Okay. So 144 00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:05,450 Speaker 2: I think a lot of teachers have that responsibility on 145 00:07:05,450 --> 00:07:08,190 Speaker 2: them that I must do everything, I have to do 146 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:10,050 Speaker 2: everything myself. But actually you 147 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:13,190 Speaker 2: you have your peers or your mentors in the school 148 00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:15,550 Speaker 2: to actually help you out. So reach out to get 149 00:07:15,550 --> 00:07:17,660 Speaker 2: your colleagues to help out or to ask for advice 150 00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:20,290 Speaker 2: and don't be ashamed or shy to ask because I 151 00:07:20,290 --> 00:07:21,900 Speaker 2: know as a beginning teacher when I first started I 152 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,770 Speaker 2: was like if I ask a senior teacher then does 153 00:07:24,770 --> 00:07:27,370 Speaker 2: that mean that I'm incapable, but I don't think that 154 00:07:27,370 --> 00:07:30,730 Speaker 2: should be that sort of perception because we are new 155 00:07:30,730 --> 00:07:32,770 Speaker 2: and we never know what's going to happen and it's 156 00:07:32,770 --> 00:07:35,620 Speaker 2: always good to hear out from our senior colleagues, like okay, 157 00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:38,410 Speaker 2: so that's an example of this hypothetical question, what can 158 00:07:38,410 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: I do? 159 00:07:38,930 --> 00:07:41,630 Speaker 2: And I'm sure our colleagues, older colleagues, senior colleagues are 160 00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:42,900 Speaker 2: more than happy to share, 161 00:07:42,910 --> 00:07:44,570 Speaker 1: but you know, when I was in school a lot 162 00:07:44,570 --> 00:07:47,090 Speaker 1: of teachers were just scary. I was just scared of 163 00:07:47,090 --> 00:07:49,610 Speaker 1: them and that's why I listened to them. Right? So 164 00:07:49,610 --> 00:07:52,450 Speaker 1: I can imagine Sarah entering a new school. The senior 165 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:58,230 Speaker 1: teacher is this fierce lady you're hesitant about going to her? Right. Right. 166 00:07:58,230 --> 00:08:01,990 Speaker 1: So again, the owners shouldn't be on young beginning teachers. Right? 167 00:08:01,990 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: We also hope that the school leaders will be proactive 168 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,630 Speaker 1: about these things rather than being reactive, right? Which is 169 00:08:07,630 --> 00:08:07,790 Speaker 1: what 170 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,260 Speaker 1: we see most of the time we react to a 171 00:08:09,260 --> 00:08:12,230 Speaker 1: situation after it happens and explodes and then we're a 172 00:08:12,230 --> 00:08:15,220 Speaker 1: bit slow and always playing catch up more. That can 173 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:20,210 Speaker 1: definitely be done to train equip and also protect our teachers. 174 00:08:20,220 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: And in fact it sounds like something that should be 175 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,110 Speaker 1: done at each school. So it's sort of like an 176 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: orientation for that specific school because every school is different. Right? 177 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:30,030 Speaker 1: And the students are different too. Is there any kind 178 00:08:30,030 --> 00:08:32,939 Speaker 1: of mentor ship Big Sister Big Brother kind of program 179 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:36,660 Speaker 1: that helps new teachers, I guess make that transition. 180 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: I 181 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,910 Speaker 2: know from a nice set of stuff there is that 182 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,949 Speaker 2: program particular program where beginning teachers when they go to 183 00:08:42,950 --> 00:08:45,830 Speaker 2: the schools, they actually assigned a mentor in terms of 184 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 2: teaching can be for any matters. So I'm not sure 185 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: whether Sarah had that. I can't remember when it started, 186 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,940 Speaker 2: but I think it's recent. So maybe you might miss 187 00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:56,690 Speaker 2: that out. So I'm not sure. But definitely there is 188 00:08:56,700 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: the mentorship program for beginning teachers. So at least they 189 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:01,420 Speaker 2: are given the scaffolds and there 190 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,969 Speaker 2: and help in our true situations as well. 191 00:09:03,980 --> 00:09:07,780 Speaker 1: But it's very much dependent on how proactive those mentors 192 00:09:07,780 --> 00:09:10,300 Speaker 1: want to be. I was paired up with someone who 193 00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: happens to be my roo, which shouldn't be the case. 194 00:09:13,090 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: So I've never had a sit down mentoring session with 195 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: my roo and until I raised this to my school 196 00:09:19,250 --> 00:09:22,660 Speaker 1: staff developer, she was like arrows shouldn't be your mentors. Right? 197 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:24,790 Speaker 1: So then I had a new mentor in my third 198 00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: year and by the 199 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:29,100 Speaker 1: then I had to figure everything out from scratch myself. 200 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: The learning curve was really very sleep and are off 201 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,030 Speaker 1: for everyone else is the reporting officer. So in other words, 202 00:09:35,030 --> 00:09:38,090 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be your immediate superior because then you don't 203 00:09:38,090 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: feel like you could really be honest and frank about 204 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: what you're experiencing, right? Yes. So let's talk about relationships 205 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,689 Speaker 1: because besides just the teacher relationships, the relationship between teachers 206 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: and students have also changed a lot. 207 00:09:50,610 --> 00:09:53,589 Speaker 1: We're just sharing earlier that how when I was in school, right? 208 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:55,660 Speaker 1: I said I was scared of my teachers. There was 209 00:09:55,660 --> 00:09:57,970 Speaker 1: no such thing as going up to them and saying, hi, 210 00:09:57,970 --> 00:09:59,250 Speaker 1: how are you? You know, 211 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:03,030 Speaker 1: but Sarah, I know you inaugural school was that kind 212 00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:05,810 Speaker 1: of expected that you have to befriend your students to 213 00:10:05,809 --> 00:10:09,100 Speaker 1: sort of gain their trust and get them to journey 214 00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:12,020 Speaker 1: with you right? So if there's something that I learned 215 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: being in an all girls school is the relationship aspect 216 00:10:15,929 --> 00:10:18,870 Speaker 1: is definitely very important and this is my takeaway as 217 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: an educator also. They really know when you care about 218 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: them and so what I would do is not to 219 00:10:24,210 --> 00:10:28,150 Speaker 1: just be their friend friend, but just to show them 220 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,790 Speaker 1: in whatever ways work for the 221 00:10:29,809 --> 00:10:32,350 Speaker 1: them that I care. I want to be part of 222 00:10:32,350 --> 00:10:35,890 Speaker 1: their lives. I'm interested in their lives outside of school 223 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:39,449 Speaker 1: and that really helps to foster that trust and I 224 00:10:39,450 --> 00:10:43,939 Speaker 1: found that that helps to reduce the discipline cases and 225 00:10:43,940 --> 00:10:47,970 Speaker 1: numbers as well. But did you ever feel conflicted because 226 00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: you were kind of their friend 227 00:10:49,820 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: and also their teacher. Right. So in being that friend 228 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,340 Speaker 1: to them they would also speak to me very casually. 229 00:10:56,350 --> 00:10:59,220 Speaker 1: So that's something that I struggle with as well because 230 00:10:59,220 --> 00:11:02,780 Speaker 1: then do I lose that kind of authority over them? 231 00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:05,660 Speaker 1: Do they not have that same kind of respect? And 232 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,500 Speaker 1: like you said that fear, right, that fear is not 233 00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:11,390 Speaker 1: always a bad thing because they are so chummy with 234 00:11:11,390 --> 00:11:14,020 Speaker 1: me sometimes that in class they are just doing their 235 00:11:14,020 --> 00:11:17,990 Speaker 1: own things, they expect me to overlook certain things. So 236 00:11:17,990 --> 00:11:20,470 Speaker 1: Sarah I have to ask you, has a student ever 237 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,540 Speaker 1: shouted at you 238 00:11:21,730 --> 00:11:25,660 Speaker 1: shouted at me back at you in a way that 239 00:11:25,660 --> 00:11:29,620 Speaker 1: was disrespectful all the time Yeah all the time and 240 00:11:29,620 --> 00:11:31,990 Speaker 1: I have to be careful because even know how to 241 00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:36,150 Speaker 1: address it in public among these students, friends, I cannot 242 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,210 Speaker 1: retaliate or I cannot do it in a way that 243 00:11:39,210 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: embarrasses them, especially in a girls school that's very important, right? 244 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: Their sense of identity and also that kind of pride. 245 00:11:46,650 --> 00:11:49,370 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I have to be very careful in how 246 00:11:49,370 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: I respond when these things happen. I'm almost imagining there 247 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,550 Speaker 1: were two groups of teachers, the ones that the girls 248 00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:58,970 Speaker 1: kind of liked and then there were the others that 249 00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:02,010 Speaker 1: they just didn't like because they were the teacher teacher. 250 00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:04,969 Speaker 1: I guess there are pros and cons for this situation. 251 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:06,900 Speaker 1: I think an important stakeholder that we 252 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,970 Speaker 1: we have not talked about other parents. Parents also involved 253 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:14,290 Speaker 1: in the child's behavior upbringing. And so he just today 254 00:12:14,290 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: especially they work extremely closely with parents when it comes 255 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,340 Speaker 1: to supporting their child. And different parents have different expectations. 256 00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:25,230 Speaker 1: We will talk about parents in just a minute about women, 257 00:12:25,230 --> 00:12:27,189 Speaker 1: I want to go back to you on this because 258 00:12:27,429 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: are the teachers in a way, talk about these things. So, 259 00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:33,530 Speaker 1: n I e do they get training in this aspect? 260 00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:36,660 Speaker 1: Because this whole idea of relationship? How do you negotiate 261 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:39,070 Speaker 1: it even as adults, we all struggle with it? 262 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:42,670 Speaker 2: They do have classroom management classes that is being taught 263 00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:44,990 Speaker 2: N I E M O e also has the Singapore 264 00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: teaching practice. So they also do emphasize on the positive 265 00:12:48,570 --> 00:12:52,100 Speaker 2: classroom culture. So again, there is also emphasizing like in 266 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:53,620 Speaker 2: the classroom relationships, 267 00:12:53,742 --> 00:12:56,232 Speaker 2: teachers and students between students and so on. 268 00:12:56,232 --> 00:12:58,002 Speaker 1: But all that sounds a bit even the way you're 269 00:12:58,002 --> 00:13:00,252 Speaker 1: describing it. I'm sorry, it sounds a bit like a 270 00:13:00,252 --> 00:13:01,872 Speaker 1: lecture like theory, you know? 271 00:13:01,881 --> 00:13:04,011 Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to say is they do give 272 00:13:04,022 --> 00:13:07,182 Speaker 2: the theory okay. But what happens is it's always for 273 00:13:07,182 --> 00:13:09,772 Speaker 2: the teachers to going back to school to actually try 274 00:13:09,772 --> 00:13:13,161 Speaker 2: all these different theories and practices because it's not one 275 00:13:13,162 --> 00:13:16,172 Speaker 2: size fits all. So everyone may find it differently. So 276 00:13:16,182 --> 00:13:18,462 Speaker 2: because I used to teach an all girls school as well, 277 00:13:18,472 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: it's slightly different from Sarah 278 00:13:20,054 --> 00:13:23,623 Speaker 2: Experience. So I was telling my students, but I do 279 00:13:23,624 --> 00:13:26,314 Speaker 2: set ground rules for them so that they know not 280 00:13:26,314 --> 00:13:28,963 Speaker 2: to cross that line, they can be friendly with me, 281 00:13:28,964 --> 00:13:31,314 Speaker 2: but yet at the same time they're also being respectful, 282 00:13:31,324 --> 00:13:34,764 Speaker 2: but I was teaching back in the 90s early 2000, 283 00:13:34,764 --> 00:13:38,854 Speaker 2: so that's quite a while back. So, but I know 284 00:13:38,854 --> 00:13:41,044 Speaker 2: what I used to do then was it's not just 285 00:13:41,044 --> 00:13:43,483 Speaker 2: a classroom environment that I tried to maintain a good 286 00:13:43,484 --> 00:13:46,350 Speaker 2: relationship with my students during recess time sometime 287 00:13:46,366 --> 00:13:48,926 Speaker 2: I'll sit in my class to just get to know 288 00:13:48,936 --> 00:13:51,866 Speaker 2: each and every one of them individually as a person 289 00:13:51,876 --> 00:13:54,566 Speaker 2: rather than just seeing them as a student. I'm sure 290 00:13:54,566 --> 00:13:57,545 Speaker 2: every teacher will find their own little strategies to see 291 00:13:57,546 --> 00:13:59,655 Speaker 2: how they can actually connect their students to learn a 292 00:13:59,655 --> 00:14:02,386 Speaker 2: little bit more, it does help with the relationship building 293 00:14:02,386 --> 00:14:03,646 Speaker 2: as well, the report building. 294 00:14:03,655 --> 00:14:06,506 Speaker 1: So, Ryan, you've been listening quietly to what the ladies 295 00:14:06,506 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: have been saying, What was your relationship like with your teachers? 296 00:14:09,285 --> 00:14:12,676 Speaker 1: Oh my God, I didn't want this question to control that. 297 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:17,830 Speaker 1: Um, I'll be very honest, it's quite terrible. Um, 10 298 00:14:17,830 --> 00:14:20,750 Speaker 1: years ago, the way I was handled was I was 299 00:14:20,750 --> 00:14:24,730 Speaker 1: a troublemaker, I was rebellious, my anxiety attacks was seen 300 00:14:24,730 --> 00:14:28,900 Speaker 1: as something that was rebelling against the school. I didn't 301 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,670 Speaker 1: receive any help at all. So when it comes to 302 00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:34,220 Speaker 1: relationship building, like now, 10 years later, you know, 303 00:14:34,390 --> 00:14:36,980 Speaker 1: and after hearing what the two ladies mentioned, I really 304 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: can feel the stress and a lot of the responsibility 305 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,930 Speaker 1: teachers have to manage. I also feel bad, like can 306 00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:45,490 Speaker 1: you mention if they had to handle a student like myself, 307 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:47,490 Speaker 1: it's gonna be a nightmare. I know it's not gonna 308 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: be very popular topic, but I was going to mention 309 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,830 Speaker 1: it because I have teacher friends as well. It's KPI 310 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:55,330 Speaker 1: s teacher performance teachers, KPI s the thing is for teachers, 311 00:14:55,330 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: Kpi s you don't measure, 312 00:14:57,310 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: it's based on how well they manage the students or like, 313 00:15:00,370 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: are they there for the students, you manage it based 314 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,310 Speaker 1: on like, oh, your students, how many of them getting is, 315 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,670 Speaker 1: that's how I understand from what my teacher friends mentions 316 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,710 Speaker 1: and that kind of puts a stumbling block when the 317 00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:16,820 Speaker 1: landscape evolves. So like now more and more students are 318 00:15:16,830 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: facing mental issues. More and more students are trying to 319 00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:25,180 Speaker 1: develop their identity and you see recent incidents like this happening. 320 00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:28,390 Speaker 1: Two quick answer your question. My relationship, my teachers are 321 00:15:28,390 --> 00:15:31,930 Speaker 1: terrible and I hope that will happen in the current society. No, 322 00:15:31,930 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: I mean we do not wish that on any student 323 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,170 Speaker 1: because it's very difficult to learn from someone you don't 324 00:15:37,170 --> 00:15:39,590 Speaker 1: like or you feel doesn't care about you at all. 325 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,740 Speaker 1: And you've raised a good point. It's sort of the 326 00:15:41,740 --> 00:15:45,010 Speaker 1: agenda for schools just to get good grades. Are we 327 00:15:45,010 --> 00:15:49,310 Speaker 1: so concerned about the results and forget about the people? 328 00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:55,220 Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Sarah al Khaldi and I'm the 329 00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:58,500 Speaker 1: host of a new podcast called Money talks. Yes, we 330 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:01,100 Speaker 1: will be talking about money, but more than that, we'll 331 00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: also be talking about life, personal choices, lucky breaks and 332 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,430 Speaker 1: how money is the thread running through it all. So 333 00:16:08,430 --> 00:16:11,300 Speaker 1: look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. 334 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,630 Speaker 1: So let's move on and talk about how we can 335 00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:19,770 Speaker 1: help teachers because it really sounds like there's a huge 336 00:16:19,770 --> 00:16:20,650 Speaker 1: burden on them. 337 00:16:20,810 --> 00:16:24,430 Speaker 1: Sometimes back again, a tragedy at River Valley School. Now 338 00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:26,810 Speaker 1: we want our teachers to be counselors as well. Is 339 00:16:26,810 --> 00:16:29,540 Speaker 1: it fair to actually ask teachers to do so much 340 00:16:29,540 --> 00:16:33,140 Speaker 1: without also giving them all the necessary tools and training. 341 00:16:33,150 --> 00:16:35,700 Speaker 1: I agree with what Ryan said in terms of the 342 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:38,620 Speaker 1: KPI s, we have so many deadlines for me, at 343 00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:41,620 Speaker 1: least as a former educator in a local secondary school, 344 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:46,500 Speaker 1: I signed up to manage students like Ryan was right, 345 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:48,820 Speaker 1: that's no problem. But if 346 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:51,620 Speaker 1: I have to manage that on top of everything else 347 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:55,310 Speaker 1: I'm expected to do on tight deadlines, then that's where 348 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:58,860 Speaker 1: the struggle lies. I think most educators we are in 349 00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:01,910 Speaker 1: it because we care for young people. We want to 350 00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:04,550 Speaker 1: work with young people and we don't expect them to 351 00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:08,770 Speaker 1: be perfect. So that's our educators played. But our KPI 352 00:17:08,770 --> 00:17:12,629 Speaker 1: is how teachers performance are ranked even and this is 353 00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:16,690 Speaker 1: something that I understand Lewis is looking into in parliament, right? Teachers, 354 00:17:16,690 --> 00:17:16,850 Speaker 1: right 355 00:17:17,010 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: And performance. So this plays a big part how students 356 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: perform in their old levels a levels, what have you. 357 00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:26,450 Speaker 1: So did you feel that you didn't have enough time 358 00:17:26,450 --> 00:17:29,700 Speaker 1: for the students as people themselves? Because you were having 359 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,250 Speaker 1: to do all these other things? That's a huge struggle. 360 00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:35,610 Speaker 1: So even with what said, I also take effort to 361 00:17:35,609 --> 00:17:38,149 Speaker 1: get to know my form class students. But when I 362 00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:40,780 Speaker 1: have formed class students and so many teaching classes, I 363 00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: was teaching up to eight classes at one point in time, 364 00:17:43,490 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 1: that's eight times 40. 365 00:17:45,150 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: That's over 300 students whose names I need to remember 366 00:17:48,369 --> 00:17:52,110 Speaker 1: and it really is very tough because I know that 367 00:17:52,109 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: I have to compromise my quality of care and relationships 368 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: because I have to go run off and do my C. C. A. 369 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,780 Speaker 1: I have to go and do other things. I have 370 00:17:59,790 --> 00:18:03,619 Speaker 1: to admit finance things to settle. And that's just one 371 00:18:03,619 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: part of our job. So women I have to ask 372 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,780 Speaker 1: you to respond you are with the training institution for 373 00:18:09,780 --> 00:18:11,570 Speaker 1: our teachers when you hear store 374 00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 1: like that from teachers. How do you feel? 375 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: It's sad. I do admit there's actually a lot of 376 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 2: the teachers plate. And of course with the last two years, 377 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,180 Speaker 2: you know with covid suddenly teachers are everything else and 378 00:18:23,190 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: everything not just counselor just not educator trying to teach 379 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,530 Speaker 2: students or even be a facilitator in schools and so on. 380 00:18:30,540 --> 00:18:32,629 Speaker 2: There's a lot more on the plate in that sense. 381 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,050 Speaker 2: For me is probably I'll try to say that maybe 382 00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: KPI may not be everything. 383 00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:41,610 Speaker 2: Again, my research is an assessment. So I'm coming back 384 00:18:41,609 --> 00:18:44,380 Speaker 2: to the formative and some motive purpose of it. So 385 00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 2: you know is very subjective. It's like okay you know 386 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: you hit this target that said that you're a good teacher. 387 00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:52,210 Speaker 2: But I don't think it's all that I know I 388 00:18:52,210 --> 00:18:54,670 Speaker 2: wasn't probably a very very good teachers in the eyes 389 00:18:54,670 --> 00:18:57,290 Speaker 2: of my H. O. D. S. And principles because I 390 00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 2: tend to find that my relationship students are a lot 391 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,500 Speaker 2: more important than meeting my KPI in that sense. But 392 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: of course that's still part of my job. 393 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:07,030 Speaker 2: I still teach as I need to and so on. 394 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: I guess for every teacher you have to weigh that. 395 00:19:09,410 --> 00:19:12,649 Speaker 2: Is it really just getting all A's in your class 396 00:19:12,660 --> 00:19:16,580 Speaker 2: and you forget about how your students are feeling emotionally social, 397 00:19:16,590 --> 00:19:18,850 Speaker 2: emotional aspects of it. You know, you can ignore that 398 00:19:18,859 --> 00:19:21,540 Speaker 2: and just get the results or do you want all 399 00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: around it? They can learn. But yet at the same 400 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,140 Speaker 2: time there can be a well developed person in terms 401 00:19:26,140 --> 00:19:27,730 Speaker 2: of characters and values and so on. 402 00:19:27,740 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: That's what Sarah wanted for her students. But she just 403 00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:34,670 Speaker 1: didn't have the time because there were all these other demands. 404 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,500 Speaker 2: It's a give and take situation. So you learn when 405 00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,689 Speaker 2: to let go and when to hang on to it. 406 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,450 Speaker 2: I guess for my situation was to me, I deemed 407 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:46,830 Speaker 2: my students relationship and their development 408 00:19:47,020 --> 00:19:50,030 Speaker 2: more important than let's say getting the results. So getting 409 00:19:50,030 --> 00:19:52,730 Speaker 2: them to see them. That Eureka moment. Oh yes. I 410 00:19:52,730 --> 00:19:56,220 Speaker 2: finally understood this topic even if you just improved by 411 00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:58,470 Speaker 2: a few marks, but you still feel to me that 412 00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: it's still an improvement and that motivation to see that, 413 00:20:01,170 --> 00:20:03,050 Speaker 2: you know, the happiness in the students face like, hey, 414 00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:05,660 Speaker 2: I got a question correct. Never mind if I still feel, 415 00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:08,650 Speaker 2: but at least there is an improvement in a positive way. 416 00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:09,389 Speaker 2: That sense. Yeah. 417 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: This sounds like something that needs to come down from 418 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: the principle, we know the principle is the head of 419 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,970 Speaker 1: the school where she or he needs to create that 420 00:20:16,970 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: culture which therefore says, we are very interested in the 421 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,220 Speaker 1: welfare of our students above and beyond grades. But would 422 00:20:25,220 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 1: you dare say our schools all do that? 423 00:20:27,380 --> 00:20:30,290 Speaker 2: I don't think all schools are doing that, But I can. 424 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean that different kinds of teachers, 425 00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:36,420 Speaker 1: we look at the pizza ranking year after year, that 426 00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:40,130 Speaker 1: is our claim to fame, but if others get hurt 427 00:20:40,140 --> 00:20:42,770 Speaker 1: in the process, is it really worth it? Sorry, I'm 428 00:20:42,770 --> 00:20:45,420 Speaker 1: just throwing out these tough questions. As a parent myself. 429 00:20:45,420 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: I've encountered, my daughter had a bit of a difficult 430 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,410 Speaker 1: time with one teacher in primary school and 431 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,290 Speaker 1: there were days, she just didn't want to go to 432 00:20:52,290 --> 00:20:55,550 Speaker 1: school at all. And we struggled very much as parents. 433 00:20:55,550 --> 00:20:58,590 Speaker 1: I think it's tough, even steven if the principal and 434 00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:02,430 Speaker 1: my principal was great, she saw how the school was 435 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,020 Speaker 1: putting too much emphasis on the results. But even then 436 00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:09,419 Speaker 1: there was her against the tradition and culture of the 437 00:21:09,420 --> 00:21:11,030 Speaker 1: entire school, the entire H. O. 438 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:14,820 Speaker 1: These and everyone else. Yeah. So even if you have 439 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:17,770 Speaker 1: a good school leader, everyone has to come on board 440 00:21:17,770 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 1: and that is that challenge, right? To win everyone and 441 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,970 Speaker 1: be aligned on that same page. I sometimes wish that 442 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: teachers have lesser students to teach because I think it's 443 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: something that a lot of us tend to forget. People 444 00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 1: want to be educators, not because they want to hurt students. 445 00:21:35,890 --> 00:21:38,970 Speaker 1: They are passionate about teaching. They are passionate about student development, 446 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: but with all these factors in place, sometimes they are 447 00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:45,669 Speaker 1: unable to reach to their full potential and sometimes people 448 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:48,010 Speaker 1: get hurt. That you might, you mention what happens when 449 00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:49,489 Speaker 1: people get hurt in the process. 450 00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:54,010 Speaker 1: What I'm concerned with is even if the principle is 451 00:21:54,010 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: a good one, 452 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,129 Speaker 1: the fundamental culture and the fundamental system that's in place, 453 00:21:58,130 --> 00:22:02,070 Speaker 1: the policies in place or societal values have to adapt accordingly. 454 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,630 Speaker 1: The big question that we have here right now is 455 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,690 Speaker 1: is society ready for that change? Let's be honest here, 456 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,450 Speaker 1: even right now at my current generation, great seem to 457 00:22:10,450 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: be the most important thing. I'm doing my nonprofit movement 458 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: right now and people say that why you're not focusing 459 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: on your studies. 460 00:22:17,710 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I still get flak for it, you know, to 461 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,220 Speaker 1: this day, I think that when it comes to the 462 00:22:21,369 --> 00:22:24,550 Speaker 1: system there's a lot more than just having a good principle. 463 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,900 Speaker 1: Unfortunately to be fair, there are steps being taken to 464 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,090 Speaker 1: try and work towards this direction. But it is a 465 00:22:31,090 --> 00:22:34,850 Speaker 1: slow and arduous journey. Let's quickly talk about parents because 466 00:22:34,859 --> 00:22:38,220 Speaker 1: they play an integral role as well. Maybe Sarah you know, 467 00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:40,220 Speaker 1: as a teacher today and as a parent, if I 468 00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:41,350 Speaker 1: came to you and say 469 00:22:41,369 --> 00:22:43,380 Speaker 1: how can I help you, how can I make the 470 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:46,830 Speaker 1: whole experience better for you and for my kid, A 471 00:22:46,830 --> 00:22:50,450 Speaker 1: lot of parents these days are very involved and that's 472 00:22:50,450 --> 00:22:52,290 Speaker 1: not a bad thing. I think what they are very 473 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:56,310 Speaker 1: eager to contribute is money and not so much time. 474 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,090 Speaker 1: My solution for them would always be to spend more 475 00:23:00,090 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: time with their kids, get to know them, get to 476 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,010 Speaker 1: know what they like, get to know what they aspire 477 00:23:05,030 --> 00:23:08,580 Speaker 1: to be, get to know their dreams, what makes them scared, 478 00:23:08,580 --> 00:23:12,030 Speaker 1: what makes them happy. And they're in these conversations that 479 00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 1: you have with them on a day to day basis, 480 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,180 Speaker 1: they review who your child is, right, what your child 481 00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: cares about, what they like to do, what they don't 482 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,370 Speaker 1: like and having that relationship at home where they feel secure, 483 00:23:23,369 --> 00:23:25,859 Speaker 1: where they feel like they can be, who they are, 484 00:23:25,859 --> 00:23:28,689 Speaker 1: then they step into school feeling empowered 485 00:23:28,830 --> 00:23:31,830 Speaker 1: and they are ready to try new things. I just 486 00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:34,910 Speaker 1: left a couple of months back and my second one 487 00:23:34,910 --> 00:23:38,250 Speaker 1: students were the first batch of subjects based bending students 488 00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: and what he has abolished this whole streaming thing, which 489 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,470 Speaker 1: is a great thing. But why then are my students 490 00:23:43,470 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: still breaking down in front of me when they cannot 491 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,670 Speaker 1: score because already the emphasis has shifted away from grades, 492 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:51,940 Speaker 1: but they still put so much pressure on themselves. And 493 00:23:51,940 --> 00:23:54,110 Speaker 1: then I asked them, okay, so how did 494 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,300 Speaker 1: your parents take this? And of course at home, it's difficult. 495 00:23:57,310 --> 00:23:59,969 Speaker 1: Even in school where we don't emphasize the grades, they 496 00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: go home their parents, it's a difference. So again, it's 497 00:24:02,730 --> 00:24:04,850 Speaker 1: not on the same page. The parents have to be 498 00:24:04,850 --> 00:24:07,610 Speaker 1: on the same page with the teachers and the school leaders. 499 00:24:07,619 --> 00:24:11,790 Speaker 1: I think this generation of parents, they are definitely, they 500 00:24:11,790 --> 00:24:15,410 Speaker 1: have more money to spare in terms of getting the 501 00:24:15,410 --> 00:24:19,410 Speaker 1: right enrichment tuition etcetera. So they're very eager to help 502 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:22,810 Speaker 1: the child and sometimes these lessons are helpful, but if 503 00:24:22,810 --> 00:24:25,750 Speaker 1: the child is not well regulated, like what said, their 504 00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:29,500 Speaker 1: identity is found in their grades and that's a big trouble. But, 505 00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:32,150 Speaker 1: and that's where parents like yourself can step in to 506 00:24:32,150 --> 00:24:36,220 Speaker 1: really help shape the identities first. I guess there's no 507 00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:38,490 Speaker 1: point having the highest I. Q. If you have no 508 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:41,780 Speaker 1: eq at all. Sarah, have you ever felt that, you know, 509 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:44,710 Speaker 1: some of your students better than their parents know them. 510 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:48,550 Speaker 1: It's possibly a phase. Also when I went through secondary school, 511 00:24:48,550 --> 00:24:51,930 Speaker 1: I didn't like to confide in my parents, but with 512 00:24:51,940 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: the students who sometimes I feel have difficulty adjusting or 513 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,940 Speaker 1: going through a rough patch when I prove and I 514 00:24:57,940 --> 00:25:00,650 Speaker 1: ask sometimes their parents are just too busy and what 515 00:25:00,650 --> 00:25:02,450 Speaker 1: we're seeing nowadays is more 516 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,100 Speaker 1: national slash broken families. So at home they don't feel safe, 517 00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: they don't feel secure. And we've talked about how this 518 00:25:10,410 --> 00:25:13,470 Speaker 1: can manifest in behavioral challenges in school because they have 519 00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:17,510 Speaker 1: no way of expressing themselves in a healthy way. They 520 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,970 Speaker 1: don't know, they weren't taught, they don't have the right 521 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:21,230 Speaker 1: role models at home. 522 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,230 Speaker 1: And so they just act out and so we do 523 00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:25,140 Speaker 1: have to be patient with them, but like what we've 524 00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: talked about teachers being so stretched sometimes we also have 525 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,230 Speaker 1: very little bed with to be that patient person. Yeah. 526 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,150 Speaker 1: And it's tough to expect teachers to be able to 527 00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: spot this in the hundreds of students that you have women. Again, 528 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,690 Speaker 1: you're a parent, but you also as an educator. How 529 00:25:40,690 --> 00:25:42,590 Speaker 1: do you respond to what Sarah said? So 530 00:25:42,590 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: usually I'll find time to speak to parents if possible. 531 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,530 Speaker 2: And I always tell them, you know, what are your expectations? 532 00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:49,910 Speaker 2: Sometimes parents and I said, yeah, 533 00:25:50,130 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: results, you know, they need to get a good job 534 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,850 Speaker 2: and so on. So I would ask them like what 535 00:25:53,859 --> 00:25:57,350 Speaker 2: if that doesn't come true then what are your expectations? 536 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 2: Think deeper than to just based on results? I think 537 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,090 Speaker 2: what you said results is not everything the feel of 538 00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:06,590 Speaker 2: the past education ministers as well say grades are not everything. 539 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,450 Speaker 2: It goes beyond life. Parents really need to think about 540 00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:12,230 Speaker 2: what exactly are the expectations of the child and they 541 00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:15,730 Speaker 2: cannot force expectations for their own parents onto their kids. 542 00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: That's really unfair. So expectations and then calmly 543 00:26:18,850 --> 00:26:22,020 Speaker 2: indication as well, the communication channel with the child is 544 00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:24,810 Speaker 2: very important. Find the time to speak in in just 545 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: five minutes. Hey, how's your day? Anything interesting that happened 546 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,170 Speaker 2: in school, Anything upsetting a little shop one or two 547 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: questions and then you can open up the whole conversation like, hey, 548 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,750 Speaker 2: there's a fire at this place. You know, what do 549 00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: you think about it? How can it be prevented? You know, 550 00:26:37,850 --> 00:26:40,570 Speaker 2: there's a lot of conversation openness in that sense where 551 00:26:40,570 --> 00:26:42,750 Speaker 2: parents can just think that 12 minutes 552 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,540 Speaker 1: it sounds so simple, but it's like you're asking asian 553 00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:47,580 Speaker 1: parents to talk to the kids. 554 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's sometimes some seems counterintuitive and I have 555 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,510 Speaker 1: to say it's also I think I feel as the 556 00:26:54,510 --> 00:26:56,609 Speaker 1: labeling so I didn't do well, my P. S. L. E. 557 00:26:56,609 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: I went to the normal stream and sec one and 558 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,570 Speaker 1: I think it was tougher for my parents than it 559 00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:03,030 Speaker 1: was for me to live with that shame, you know? 560 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,830 Speaker 1: But I think I turned out okay Ryan any last 561 00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:09,650 Speaker 1: thoughts on this? Well, I would say we study different 562 00:27:09,650 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: from the educators. I think parents need to start learning 563 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,780 Speaker 1: that teachers are not the solution to everything. 564 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,940 Speaker 1: I think that's something that parents need to realize that 565 00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 1: at the end of the teachers also human beings, they 566 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,020 Speaker 1: have their own lives. Some of them even have your 567 00:27:24,020 --> 00:27:27,980 Speaker 1: own kids expecting a teacher to make your son or 568 00:27:27,980 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: daughter sally become a stellar student is impossible. There might 569 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,770 Speaker 1: be some students that can do that. But let's be 570 00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:38,910 Speaker 1: honest here, that's very rare. Parents need to be actively 571 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:42,510 Speaker 1: involved in the journey of their child, especially because I 572 00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: mean based on my own experience the absence of that 573 00:27:45,290 --> 00:27:46,030 Speaker 1: really 574 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,580 Speaker 1: can turn out very different because I come from a 575 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: dysfunctional family as well, but at the same time I think, like, 576 00:27:52,330 --> 00:27:54,260 Speaker 1: not just money, you know, like sending your kids to 577 00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:56,550 Speaker 1: tuition is also not gonna stop everything. And the end 578 00:27:56,550 --> 00:28:00,120 Speaker 1: of the day, I think it's really about pricing your 579 00:28:00,130 --> 00:28:04,270 Speaker 1: child's development as a whole, rather than defining him or 580 00:28:04,270 --> 00:28:06,970 Speaker 1: her based on your grades. Well, thank you all so 581 00:28:06,970 --> 00:28:09,630 Speaker 1: much for coming on today and sharing. I think, you know, 582 00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:12,670 Speaker 1: a lot of thoughts left for, especially parents out there, 583 00:28:12,670 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: to even me, I'm thinking, how can I work with 584 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: my kids better and 585 00:28:15,910 --> 00:28:18,490 Speaker 1: speak to them more in a different way to it's 586 00:28:18,490 --> 00:28:20,869 Speaker 1: true to understand them better. Because I would hate for 587 00:28:20,869 --> 00:28:23,770 Speaker 1: it to be a case where Sarah the teacher knows 588 00:28:23,780 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: my daughter better than I do. That would just be 589 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:28,210 Speaker 1: sad for me as a parent. 590 00:28:28,670 --> 00:28:30,930 Speaker 1: Any last burning thoughts that you would like to share 591 00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:31,670 Speaker 1: and add in, 592 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,010 Speaker 2: it's a whole society that has to work together. So 593 00:28:35,010 --> 00:28:37,140 Speaker 2: all the stakeholders have to work together. So it's not 594 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: just teachers or the school leaders, you know, m O 595 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,630 Speaker 2: e it also involves the students parents, it's a whole society. 596 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,510 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think largely it's 597 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,750 Speaker 1: systemic, right? Because why parents don't have time for their 598 00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: kids because they are struggling to make ends meet by, 599 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: they're struggling to make ends meet so expensive living here, 600 00:28:55,450 --> 00:28:57,719 Speaker 1: it's so impossible on them. So I feel for the 601 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: parents I've spoken with parents who break down on the 602 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,530 Speaker 1: phone call when I talk to them about their kids 603 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:04,370 Speaker 1: because under so much pressure, 604 00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:08,350 Speaker 1: they go through things in their work, personal life. But 605 00:29:08,350 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: like what Stephen you mentioned right, teachers are then expected 606 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,770 Speaker 1: to take on the role of counseling, even the parents 607 00:29:13,780 --> 00:29:16,690 Speaker 1: in this situation. It's really tough. 608 00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:21,140 Speaker 1: Would it help if we made the syllabus less arduous? 609 00:29:21,150 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: Why do we need to learn so much in each subject? 610 00:29:24,530 --> 00:29:27,820 Speaker 1: And Rps Ellie is unique to Singapore only because it's 611 00:29:27,820 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: harder than any other P. Sle or level in other 612 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,050 Speaker 1: parts of the world. Would it help if there was 613 00:29:33,050 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: a syllabus change and we just didn't learn as much 614 00:29:36,490 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: in a way because then you have more time to 615 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: do other stuff, right? 616 00:29:39,850 --> 00:29:40,110 Speaker 2: I 617 00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:42,290 Speaker 1: mean obviously as a student, I'm quite biased, right? Please 618 00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:45,860 Speaker 1: make our lesser, I'm finished 100% of students. But why 619 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:48,890 Speaker 1: do you need to learn mathematics? That is tested for 620 00:29:48,890 --> 00:29:51,340 Speaker 1: a 15 year old when you're 12 years old, for example, 621 00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:53,900 Speaker 1: compared to other parts of the world. What benefit does 622 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:57,210 Speaker 1: it give us? Stephen you're talking about being over pitching, 623 00:29:57,220 --> 00:30:01,330 Speaker 1: We have been teaching to our young Children, things that 624 00:30:01,330 --> 00:30:03,590 Speaker 1: are way too advanced for them. And then when they 625 00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:05,950 Speaker 1: don't score and they don't do well, which is under 626 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,950 Speaker 1: understandable, then it makes them feel so lousy about themselves, 627 00:30:09,950 --> 00:30:12,530 Speaker 1: It affects their self esteem. So then that goes back to, 628 00:30:12,530 --> 00:30:14,690 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm not good enough and then that 629 00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: brings up a host of other issues. The way Singapore 630 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,790 Speaker 1: pitched it was we want to create people because the 631 00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:24,430 Speaker 1: people themselves are our resources. So you want these people 632 00:30:24,430 --> 00:30:28,060 Speaker 1: to be like very smart, very capable, but it comes 633 00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:30,550 Speaker 1: at the expense of our mental well being, comes at 634 00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:33,370 Speaker 1: the expense of our self esteem. And what happens when 635 00:30:33,370 --> 00:30:34,210 Speaker 1: you don't do well 636 00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:37,010 Speaker 1: looking at it at a very so called practical level, 637 00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:39,050 Speaker 1: There is the understanding of this because we are such 638 00:30:39,050 --> 00:30:41,670 Speaker 1: a small country, what can we offer to the world 639 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,660 Speaker 1: and decided to offer the people as the resources and 640 00:30:45,670 --> 00:30:48,740 Speaker 1: it worked years ago, but it may not necessarily work 641 00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: now because the cracks are forming. And I would say 642 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: that I think the most important thing is to reduce 643 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:55,950 Speaker 1: the world on teachers 644 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,810 Speaker 1: Because most students, we spend our time in school. I 645 00:30:59,810 --> 00:31:02,370 Speaker 1: think it's very impractical to have a teacher managed 40 646 00:31:02,370 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: students and then manage multiple 40 students classes, reducing class 647 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,670 Speaker 1: size to 20 will be better give the teacher capacity 648 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: to teach and to understand the students rather than quantity 649 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: over quality. 650 00:31:16,010 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: I've looked through 152 years of education changes in Singapore 651 00:31:21,330 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: assessment is not just the recent years. So it has 652 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,170 Speaker 2: been ongoing changes are happening, but of course it takes 653 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: time for that change to be seen. So like in 654 00:31:29,650 --> 00:31:32,390 Speaker 2: our time as a student in the seventies, it is 655 00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:34,850 Speaker 2: very different from now. And of course in my time 656 00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:37,230 Speaker 2: there is no such an informative assessment, you know, it's 657 00:31:37,230 --> 00:31:39,790 Speaker 2: basically exams test and that's it. You don't talk about 658 00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: anything like self checklist or self assessment assessment, what's that? 659 00:31:43,290 --> 00:31:45,710 Speaker 2: Who cares? You know, so things are changing, but 660 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: I think time is the big factor here as well 661 00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:50,850 Speaker 2: that we actually would need that for the effects to 662 00:31:50,850 --> 00:31:53,510 Speaker 2: be seen. And also, I mean for everyone to be 663 00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:55,780 Speaker 2: patient and also at the same time play our part 664 00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:57,900 Speaker 2: to make sure that we can have all these effects 665 00:31:57,910 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 2: happening a bit faster than it should be and so on. 666 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:03,820 Speaker 2: I think with the class size again research has been 667 00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: inconclusive so it really depends on again the purpose. So 668 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: class size wise, I think we need more research, 669 00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: I can't tell this to a research scientist, but sometimes 670 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,420 Speaker 1: data doesn't give you all the answers, 671 00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:19,150 Speaker 1: the data may say one thing, but in reality something 672 00:32:19,150 --> 00:32:22,530 Speaker 1: else may be the answer. This discussion could carry on 673 00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:25,310 Speaker 1: for days and years as it has been. But thank 674 00:32:25,310 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: you all so much for coming on heart of the matter. 675 00:32:27,290 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you've had 676 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,340 Speaker 1: an insight into just how tough it can be for 677 00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:37,460 Speaker 1: our teachers in the classroom, but also how complex discipline 678 00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:40,500 Speaker 1: dealing with parents and social media, how it can all 679 00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:41,990 Speaker 1: be really challenging. 680 00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:46,990 Speaker 1: If this is your first time listening to this podcast, 681 00:32:46,990 --> 00:32:49,870 Speaker 1: do check out our other episodes, we've done one on 682 00:32:49,870 --> 00:32:53,940 Speaker 1: worker safety, another one on section 377 a and also 683 00:32:53,940 --> 00:32:55,050 Speaker 1: one on inflation. 684 00:32:55,870 --> 00:32:59,010 Speaker 1: The team behind this podcast is Joanne, chang, Jacqueline, chan 685 00:32:59,020 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: Danieli and Christina robert, and I'm Stephen signing off.