1 00:00:03,259 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:11,210 Speaker 1: I have spoken to some people who were considering start-up life. 3 00:00:11,449 --> 00:00:13,810 Speaker 1: They were more interested in the idea of being in 4 00:00:13,819 --> 00:00:16,489 Speaker 1: a start up than to really look at how they 5 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:19,329 Speaker 1: can sustain and be part of the start-up success. 6 00:00:19,340 --> 00:00:21,899 Speaker 2: So our producer went to talk to some of her 7 00:00:21,909 --> 00:00:25,219 Speaker 2: friends who have started in a start up. They felt 8 00:00:25,229 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: that there was a crazy workload for little money. It 9 00:00:28,010 --> 00:00:31,370 Speaker 2: is a common misconception that start-ups cannot pay market rate 10 00:00:31,379 --> 00:00:32,759 Speaker 2: or above market rate. 11 00:00:34,630 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the work it podcast with 12 00:00:37,529 --> 00:00:40,979 Speaker 2: Tiffany and Gerald, whether you're navigating your first job or 13 00:00:40,990 --> 00:00:43,970 Speaker 2: looking to make a career switch. We hope our discussions 14 00:00:43,979 --> 00:00:45,659 Speaker 2: so far have been helpful and 15 00:00:45,668 --> 00:00:47,769 Speaker 1: remember we have our ask me anything segment at the 16 00:00:47,779 --> 00:00:51,049 Speaker 1: end and I'll answer one of your career related questions. So, Tiffany, 17 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:52,139 Speaker 1: what's the question for today? 18 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,659 Speaker 2: Today's a ma question is about ageism. But before we 19 00:00:56,669 --> 00:00:59,549 Speaker 2: get to that, let's start with our main discussion first, 20 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,049 Speaker 2: which is something that I think you can identify Gerald 21 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,789 Speaker 2: because you were previously employed in a mid size organization 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,279 Speaker 2: and now you are the boss of your own start up. 23 00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:12,389 Speaker 1: Yes, I worked in a mid size public sector organization. 24 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:15,599 Speaker 1: I also worked as like an entrepreneur. It means like 25 00:01:15,610 --> 00:01:18,730 Speaker 1: starting up a small team within a larger organization with 26 00:01:18,739 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: a slightly different aim. So having the experience of working 27 00:01:21,690 --> 00:01:24,639 Speaker 1: with different teams, different sizes, it really allowed me to 28 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:26,940 Speaker 1: experience how it was like the different cultures and different 29 00:01:26,949 --> 00:01:28,989 Speaker 1: ways of working personally. For me, I 30 00:01:29,235 --> 00:01:32,294 Speaker 1: enjoy working in smaller teams, smaller organization, more nimble and 31 00:01:32,305 --> 00:01:35,613 Speaker 1: more agile, easier to pull everyone together. Tiffany, how about yourself? 32 00:01:35,625 --> 00:01:37,654 Speaker 1: Would you prefer to work in a smaller organization or 33 00:01:37,665 --> 00:01:38,253 Speaker 1: larger one? 34 00:01:38,264 --> 00:01:41,864 Speaker 2: OK. I have always been working in a larger organization 35 00:01:42,014 --> 00:01:44,324 Speaker 2: but same as you, I would work in smaller teams 36 00:01:44,334 --> 00:01:47,535 Speaker 2: in a larger organization. So that's as much of an 37 00:01:47,544 --> 00:01:50,614 Speaker 2: experience as I have with what a smaller organization 38 00:01:50,849 --> 00:01:54,809 Speaker 2: would feel like I like the innovative, the experimental part 39 00:01:54,819 --> 00:01:57,180 Speaker 2: of it where you can set your own goals almost 40 00:01:57,190 --> 00:01:59,550 Speaker 2: like you can set your own KP I and it's 41 00:01:59,559 --> 00:02:01,790 Speaker 2: always all hands on deck and I feel like the 42 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,300 Speaker 2: growth can be exponential as well because we can stretch 43 00:02:04,309 --> 00:02:06,709 Speaker 2: your skills, you can sign up for one role, but 44 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,630 Speaker 2: then you get other opportunities to do other skills as well. 45 00:02:09,998 --> 00:02:11,857 Speaker 2: But I also think that it's also very easy to 46 00:02:11,869 --> 00:02:14,688 Speaker 2: get caught up when you are in a smaller organization 47 00:02:14,809 --> 00:02:18,328 Speaker 2: with the mundane tasks because everybody has to do everything right. 48 00:02:18,339 --> 00:02:21,127 Speaker 2: So again, all hands on deck pros and cons with 49 00:02:21,139 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 2: bigger companies. I feel that there are clear processes, clearer 50 00:02:24,848 --> 00:02:27,008 Speaker 2: delineation of roles as well. 51 00:02:27,018 --> 00:02:29,419 Speaker 1: So today we are here to talk about the different 52 00:02:29,429 --> 00:02:32,328 Speaker 1: organizations and the sizes and who do we have on 53 00:02:32,339 --> 00:02:32,968 Speaker 1: the show with us? 54 00:02:32,979 --> 00:02:36,378 Speaker 2: Today? We have Geraldine Pia. She is the enterprise lead 55 00:02:36,389 --> 00:02:38,649 Speaker 2: of start up company Alpha Senses and she's 56 00:02:38,725 --> 00:02:41,535 Speaker 2: also previously worked in larger organizations as well. So Jerry 57 00:02:41,636 --> 00:02:44,305 Speaker 2: and welcome to the podcast. Hey, glad to be here. 58 00:02:44,315 --> 00:02:48,606 Speaker 2: According to a 2024 report by Enterprise Singapore, Singapore is 59 00:02:48,615 --> 00:02:52,735 Speaker 2: the top destination for start up investment in Southeast Asia. 60 00:02:52,826 --> 00:02:58,085 Speaker 2: It closed in 2023 with a whopping $8.5 billion across 61 00:02:58,095 --> 00:03:03,216 Speaker 2: 522 deals. So obviously, that's great news for somebody like 62 00:03:03,235 --> 00:03:05,716 Speaker 2: Jal who is a boss of his adult. But you 63 00:03:05,725 --> 00:03:07,466 Speaker 2: started Jared in, in the mid summer 64 00:03:07,792 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: organization. What drew you to that initially after you graduated? 65 00:03:11,852 --> 00:03:15,242 Speaker 2: I guess when I first graduated, I was pretty open, 66 00:03:15,251 --> 00:03:18,921 Speaker 2: I was looking at multiple options from bigger companies to 67 00:03:18,931 --> 00:03:22,361 Speaker 2: smaller ones as well. Because when we first graduate, there's 68 00:03:22,371 --> 00:03:24,340 Speaker 2: also a period of time in our lives where we 69 00:03:24,352 --> 00:03:29,591 Speaker 2: are trying to discover ourselves. But subsequently, after my first job, 70 00:03:29,811 --> 00:03:32,261 Speaker 2: I realized that I would like to move at a 71 00:03:32,272 --> 00:03:36,272 Speaker 2: pace that is much faster. I enjoy innovation. 72 00:03:36,529 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: I would love a much more dynamic work environment which 73 00:03:40,009 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: drew me to joining start-ups. How long were you in 74 00:03:42,970 --> 00:03:46,039 Speaker 2: a mid size organization for so I started my career 75 00:03:46,050 --> 00:03:47,389 Speaker 2: in a market research firm 76 00:03:47,850 --> 00:03:51,509 Speaker 2: and I was there for about 1.5 years before making 77 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 2: a switch to join a start up where I spent 78 00:03:54,130 --> 00:03:55,660 Speaker 2: almost 2.5 years. Yeah, 79 00:03:55,669 --> 00:03:55,740 Speaker 1: I 80 00:03:55,750 --> 00:03:58,300 Speaker 1: was thinking like making that switch, right? What was the 81 00:03:58,309 --> 00:04:00,380 Speaker 1: biggest difference for you? I know you mentioned how the 82 00:04:00,389 --> 00:04:02,970 Speaker 1: thing was a bit faster but what were some of 83 00:04:02,979 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: the pros and cons that you can share in making 84 00:04:05,369 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: that change? 85 00:04:05,889 --> 00:04:08,039 Speaker 2: When we think about bigger companies 86 00:04:08,179 --> 00:04:11,139 Speaker 2: versus start ups? There are always pros and cons to 87 00:04:11,149 --> 00:04:14,690 Speaker 2: each when we think about the largest company, typically, some 88 00:04:14,699 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: of the pros that comes will be the likes of 89 00:04:16,488 --> 00:04:18,709 Speaker 2: having a good brand name because when you have a 90 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: great brand name, it actually opens a lot of doors. 91 00:04:21,690 --> 00:04:26,779 Speaker 2: It increases the odds of recruiters calling you significantly. That's true. Yeah. 92 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:28,429 Speaker 2: And if you are someone who is early 93 00:04:28,619 --> 00:04:32,190 Speaker 2: career, I would not underestimate the importance of a brand 94 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: name on your resume. On top of that, Mn CS 95 00:04:35,209 --> 00:04:38,420 Speaker 2: tend to offer a high quality of training. I would 96 00:04:38,428 --> 00:04:40,940 Speaker 2: say that this is largely due to the fact that 97 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: they sometimes have more resources. And on top of that, 98 00:04:43,850 --> 00:04:45,849 Speaker 2: one of the key things to look for is really 99 00:04:45,859 --> 00:04:47,808 Speaker 2: the network that you get when you work in a 100 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: larger company 101 00:04:49,238 --> 00:04:52,549 Speaker 2: because just by nature of the company being huge, you 102 00:04:52,559 --> 00:04:54,649 Speaker 2: get to meet lots of new people. And that's very 103 00:04:54,660 --> 00:04:57,459 Speaker 2: important at the early stages of your career. And I 104 00:04:57,470 --> 00:05:00,609 Speaker 2: think it's not just a lateral peer network, you get 105 00:05:00,619 --> 00:05:04,820 Speaker 2: exposed to more mentors, people from different departments or people 106 00:05:04,829 --> 00:05:07,299 Speaker 2: with more experience in the company 107 00:05:07,549 --> 00:05:10,500 Speaker 2: and you never know how many doors they can open 108 00:05:10,510 --> 00:05:13,209 Speaker 2: for you later on as well. It's interesting that you 109 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:16,290 Speaker 2: mentioned about being in a larger organization, you get more 110 00:05:16,299 --> 00:05:20,170 Speaker 2: training opportunities because I think that's true, especially when you're 111 00:05:20,178 --> 00:05:22,678 Speaker 2: starting out. A lot of times you may not have 112 00:05:22,690 --> 00:05:26,130 Speaker 2: the depth of skills yet. And in a larger company, 113 00:05:26,140 --> 00:05:28,488 Speaker 2: your managers will say, ok, we're going to put you 114 00:05:28,500 --> 00:05:31,539 Speaker 2: through these particular courses, we're going to get you this 115 00:05:31,549 --> 00:05:33,649 Speaker 2: training and like it or not, it counts as your 116 00:05:33,660 --> 00:05:34,928 Speaker 2: work hours too. Right. Yeah. 117 00:05:35,085 --> 00:05:38,726 Speaker 2: Correct. But having said that while larger companies do have 118 00:05:38,735 --> 00:05:40,955 Speaker 2: really strong training, you do get to learn a lot 119 00:05:40,966 --> 00:05:44,515 Speaker 2: from start ups as well. So firstly at Alpha Sense 120 00:05:44,526 --> 00:05:47,575 Speaker 2: where I'm working at now, I find the enablement team 121 00:05:47,585 --> 00:05:50,466 Speaker 2: to be extremely strong and the training programs and on 122 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:53,635 Speaker 2: boarding to be really structured and effective. I would say 123 00:05:53,645 --> 00:05:56,055 Speaker 2: even more so than many of the other larger firms 124 00:05:56,065 --> 00:05:58,255 Speaker 2: that I've worked at. Ok. What was the difference that 125 00:05:58,265 --> 00:06:00,635 Speaker 2: I knew exactly what was required of me in the 126 00:06:00,645 --> 00:06:01,985 Speaker 2: 1st 30 days, 127 00:06:02,481 --> 00:06:04,582 Speaker 2: 90 days in the first six months of being in 128 00:06:04,592 --> 00:06:07,821 Speaker 2: the road. So that's really something enjoyable that I got 129 00:06:07,832 --> 00:06:11,332 Speaker 2: to experience at alpha sense. While larger companies do have 130 00:06:11,342 --> 00:06:15,782 Speaker 2: very strong training programs, mid-sized smaller firms can also offer 131 00:06:15,791 --> 00:06:18,221 Speaker 2: the same type of benefits sometimes as well. 132 00:06:18,522 --> 00:06:21,221 Speaker 1: Tiffany, this kind of reminds me of the Gallup study, right, 133 00:06:21,231 --> 00:06:24,380 Speaker 1: where it showed that smaller companies has certain advantages and 134 00:06:24,391 --> 00:06:27,381 Speaker 1: some of these advantages are exactly what Geraldine articulated things 135 00:06:27,391 --> 00:06:29,951 Speaker 1: like how they feel that there's better career growth there. 136 00:06:30,190 --> 00:06:32,062 Speaker 1: And this growth perhaps is not really 137 00:06:32,329 --> 00:06:34,790 Speaker 1: the growth in terms of maybe promotions, but it's that 138 00:06:34,799 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: sense of development that what you mentioned earlier, right? You 139 00:06:37,649 --> 00:06:39,950 Speaker 1: develop your skills, you get exposed to more things like 140 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:42,230 Speaker 1: what Geraldine said about how she knows very clearly what 141 00:06:42,238 --> 00:06:44,739 Speaker 1: she needs to do. That's a very clear focus. She 142 00:06:44,750 --> 00:06:46,100 Speaker 1: has a lot of control over her 143 00:06:46,109 --> 00:06:46,589 Speaker 1: work. 144 00:06:46,660 --> 00:06:48,850 Speaker 2: You are right? The people who have been surveyed, they 145 00:06:48,859 --> 00:06:51,308 Speaker 2: say that they do feel more engaged, they are more 146 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,170 Speaker 2: satisfied with their job. This Gallup survey where they compared 147 00:06:55,178 --> 00:06:55,458 Speaker 2: small 148 00:06:55,562 --> 00:06:59,162 Speaker 2: organizations, which is less than 25 people and large organizations, 149 00:06:59,173 --> 00:07:02,321 Speaker 2: more than 5000 people. What surprised me is that there 150 00:07:02,333 --> 00:07:05,903 Speaker 2: are actually a lot more advantages that people felt working 151 00:07:05,912 --> 00:07:09,303 Speaker 2: for a smaller company. They felt more respected at their work. 152 00:07:09,312 --> 00:07:12,743 Speaker 2: And I guess it's because there's a flatter hierarchy as well. 153 00:07:12,852 --> 00:07:15,942 Speaker 2: They feel that the organization always delivers on promises that 154 00:07:15,953 --> 00:07:18,222 Speaker 2: they make to their customers and they said that they 155 00:07:18,233 --> 00:07:18,703 Speaker 2: receive 156 00:07:18,795 --> 00:07:22,545 Speaker 2: meaningful feedback. At least in the last week, I do 157 00:07:22,555 --> 00:07:24,976 Speaker 2: agree that when you are in a larger organization, sometimes 158 00:07:24,985 --> 00:07:26,596 Speaker 2: you feel a bit like a cock in the view. 159 00:07:26,705 --> 00:07:28,936 Speaker 2: And then at the end of the day, you are wondering, ok, 160 00:07:28,946 --> 00:07:31,415 Speaker 2: where do I see my contribution in the larger scheme 161 00:07:31,425 --> 00:07:31,526 Speaker 2: of 162 00:07:31,536 --> 00:07:32,055 Speaker 2: things? 163 00:07:32,066 --> 00:07:35,415 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are so many cooks involved in preparing the dish. 164 00:07:35,425 --> 00:07:38,226 Speaker 1: Sometimes you just don't feel like you really own the dish. 165 00:07:38,235 --> 00:07:39,015 Speaker 2: Yeah, when 166 00:07:39,026 --> 00:07:41,895 Speaker 2: I was working in a larger firm previously, 167 00:07:42,230 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: I found it very hard to connect the vision of 168 00:07:44,649 --> 00:07:49,010 Speaker 2: the company and the mission to what I was doing. However, 169 00:07:49,019 --> 00:07:51,519 Speaker 2: when I am working in my current firm, now, I 170 00:07:51,529 --> 00:07:54,130 Speaker 2: actually got to be part of like the founding team 171 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:57,339 Speaker 2: here in Asia to build the market and to grow 172 00:07:57,350 --> 00:07:59,929 Speaker 2: it from scratch. So we started off at around less 173 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: than five people. And then right now we are a 174 00:08:01,929 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: team of 50 or so. So the ability to really 175 00:08:04,730 --> 00:08:08,299 Speaker 2: shape things from the ground up to be shaping culture 176 00:08:08,459 --> 00:08:09,619 Speaker 2: and leave a huge impact 177 00:08:09,829 --> 00:08:12,399 Speaker 2: on the organization as he takes his first step into 178 00:08:12,410 --> 00:08:14,739 Speaker 2: a PE C has been an extremely meaningful journey for 179 00:08:14,750 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: me. 180 00:08:15,049 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: How come it's easier for you to embody the mission 181 00:08:18,209 --> 00:08:20,149 Speaker 1: or the vision or the meaning of a smaller company 182 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,769 Speaker 1: than a larger one? What's the difference to you? 183 00:08:21,779 --> 00:08:24,529 Speaker 2: I guess the mandate was very clear, right, to expand 184 00:08:24,540 --> 00:08:28,279 Speaker 2: our presence in a pe to build a positive culture, 185 00:08:28,609 --> 00:08:31,769 Speaker 2: to help your teammates become successful and all when you 186 00:08:31,779 --> 00:08:34,219 Speaker 2: join a larger company, sometimes you might lose sight of 187 00:08:34,229 --> 00:08:37,070 Speaker 2: that because you are either a replacement hire or 188 00:08:37,169 --> 00:08:40,148 Speaker 2: perhaps, maybe at a later stage company, the growth is 189 00:08:40,158 --> 00:08:42,919 Speaker 2: not as fast, which is why you are meant to 190 00:08:42,929 --> 00:08:45,868 Speaker 2: keep things going versus grow and expand 191 00:08:45,879 --> 00:08:46,468 Speaker 2: something. 192 00:08:46,499 --> 00:08:48,539 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought those big companies, they always put the 193 00:08:48,549 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: mission and vision at the door and then you walk 194 00:08:50,669 --> 00:08:52,708 Speaker 1: past every day, you're supposed to feel like it's attached 195 00:08:52,718 --> 00:08:53,348 Speaker 1: to you, right? 196 00:08:53,479 --> 00:08:54,138 Speaker 2: But all of us 197 00:08:54,148 --> 00:08:56,049 Speaker 2: are like, you don't have that morning exercise where we 198 00:08:56,059 --> 00:08:57,028 Speaker 2: have to do our chances. 199 00:08:57,958 --> 00:08:59,698 Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't work. But I like what Geraldine said, 200 00:08:59,718 --> 00:09:01,568 Speaker 1: she feels like she's very much part of the team. 201 00:09:01,578 --> 00:09:04,508 Speaker 1: She's heavily involved. The goals are very clear. 202 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: Everybody needs to pull their weight. So that's why the 203 00:09:06,770 --> 00:09:07,700 Speaker 1: meaning comes from there. 204 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:07,739 Speaker 2: I 205 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:11,159 Speaker 2: actually have a different experience from you. So as a 206 00:09:11,169 --> 00:09:14,858 Speaker 2: journalist myself, I found that working for a bigger organization 207 00:09:14,869 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: helped to open doors for me 208 00:09:16,599 --> 00:09:20,219 Speaker 2: and that actually helped me to achieve the company's vision 209 00:09:20,229 --> 00:09:23,909 Speaker 2: and mandate better. So for example, in the previous organization 210 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:26,979 Speaker 2: that I was in is an international news network. The 211 00:09:26,989 --> 00:09:29,219 Speaker 2: minute you say that, oh, I come from this company 212 00:09:29,229 --> 00:09:31,348 Speaker 2: nine out of 10 times, people will say, yeah, I 213 00:09:31,359 --> 00:09:34,340 Speaker 2: will talk to you, which allowed me to do better 214 00:09:34,349 --> 00:09:38,570 Speaker 2: investigation to get to the heart of every story. And 215 00:09:38,580 --> 00:09:39,228 Speaker 2: that was actually 216 00:09:39,294 --> 00:09:42,114 Speaker 2: mission of the company, the brand name itself is not 217 00:09:42,125 --> 00:09:43,955 Speaker 2: just good for your resume, media, but sometimes it's actually 218 00:09:43,965 --> 00:09:46,905 Speaker 2: even good for executing your job. Would you say in 219 00:09:46,914 --> 00:09:49,724 Speaker 2: your experience the same? Yes, coming from software sales. I 220 00:09:49,734 --> 00:09:52,505 Speaker 2: definitely agree with that. When I had a huge brand 221 00:09:52,515 --> 00:09:55,145 Speaker 2: name behind me, it was much easier to get meetings 222 00:09:55,325 --> 00:09:58,775 Speaker 2: versus being in a company that is perhaps maybe new 223 00:09:58,784 --> 00:10:03,044 Speaker 2: to the region, disrupting the industry. At the same time, 224 00:10:03,054 --> 00:10:05,155 Speaker 2: I found a lot of meaning and satisfaction 225 00:10:05,419 --> 00:10:08,299 Speaker 2: as well as learning opportunities and the chance to develop 226 00:10:08,309 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: my skills when entering a new market and growing it 227 00:10:12,119 --> 00:10:15,380 Speaker 2: versus coming in with something that is already established as well. 228 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: So the question goes back to what are you optimizing 229 00:10:18,409 --> 00:10:20,510 Speaker 2: for at this point in your career? Let's talk a 230 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,159 Speaker 2: bit about the cons so far. We've been talking a 231 00:10:23,169 --> 00:10:25,710 Speaker 2: lot about the pros of working for a start up. 232 00:10:25,719 --> 00:10:27,049 Speaker 2: But what are some of the concerns 233 00:10:27,145 --> 00:10:30,664 Speaker 2: durations or not? So great things when it comes to 234 00:10:30,674 --> 00:10:32,835 Speaker 2: working for a start up, when you join a start up, 235 00:10:32,844 --> 00:10:35,044 Speaker 2: you have to be sure about what you're getting yourself 236 00:10:35,054 --> 00:10:39,824 Speaker 2: into because not all start-ups are made equal and you 237 00:10:39,835 --> 00:10:42,564 Speaker 2: have to really make a calculated bet. In this case. 238 00:10:42,575 --> 00:10:46,025 Speaker 2: For example, I used to be part of a start 239 00:10:46,034 --> 00:10:48,635 Speaker 2: up where the leadership was changing constantly 240 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,049 Speaker 2: and that made it really a rocky ride. One of 241 00:10:53,059 --> 00:10:56,070 Speaker 2: the things to look out for is really the leadership. 242 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: How long have they been there? Do they have a 243 00:10:59,289 --> 00:11:02,030 Speaker 2: skin in the game? And how invested they are? 244 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,570 Speaker 2: Because as the saying goes, a fish rots from the head, right? 245 00:11:05,630 --> 00:11:08,859 Speaker 2: If the leadership is not aligned and not committed, it's 246 00:11:08,869 --> 00:11:11,349 Speaker 2: really hard for a start up to be successful. So 247 00:11:11,359 --> 00:11:13,780 Speaker 2: you're saying that if let's say I'm a fresh graduate 248 00:11:13,789 --> 00:11:17,159 Speaker 2: and then someone says, oh, there's this company very exciting. 249 00:11:17,169 --> 00:11:20,340 Speaker 2: They just started one year in maybe a company like that. 250 00:11:20,349 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 2: You might want to be a bit more wary because 251 00:11:22,330 --> 00:11:24,489 Speaker 2: one year in the leadership may not have been very 252 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 2: stable yet. If the company is one year old, what 253 00:11:27,210 --> 00:11:29,270 Speaker 2: I might want to look at when evaluating a start 254 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,059 Speaker 2: up is the background of the founders. OK. So 255 00:11:32,135 --> 00:11:34,465 Speaker 2: have they done other start ups before? Have they stayed 256 00:11:34,474 --> 00:11:37,525 Speaker 2: long in a job? At least your considerations? Yeah. And 257 00:11:37,534 --> 00:11:39,875 Speaker 2: of course, I look at, I found the market fit 258 00:11:39,885 --> 00:11:42,015 Speaker 2: as one of the key points as well based on 259 00:11:42,025 --> 00:11:45,234 Speaker 2: their background and then what drives them to read interviews 260 00:11:45,244 --> 00:11:47,395 Speaker 2: about them just to get a good idea. So you 261 00:11:47,405 --> 00:11:49,034 Speaker 2: must have the C SI or potential 262 00:11:49,044 --> 00:11:51,565 Speaker 1: boss because if the company is not stable or not 263 00:11:51,575 --> 00:11:54,145 Speaker 1: growing yet, then the best bet is really the people 264 00:11:54,155 --> 00:11:56,075 Speaker 1: in the company, right? The founders, they are the best 265 00:11:56,085 --> 00:11:59,103 Speaker 1: bet to make this successful. So if you got someone 266 00:11:59,114 --> 00:12:00,694 Speaker 1: who's not from the industry, doesn't know the person has 267 00:12:00,705 --> 00:12:01,784 Speaker 1: never done this before, 268 00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: then the chances of success could be lower, I mean, 269 00:12:04,570 --> 00:12:05,799 Speaker 1: not impossible but could be much 270 00:12:05,809 --> 00:12:06,218 Speaker 1: lower 271 00:12:06,229 --> 00:12:09,429 Speaker 2: and failure is higher. Leadership is really key. There's this 272 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,890 Speaker 2: quote about how a players would hire a players as 273 00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: well and that will bring the organization to greater heights 274 00:12:15,169 --> 00:12:17,739 Speaker 2: beyond leadership. I also look at a couple of things, 275 00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:20,500 Speaker 2: for example, maybe perhaps the growth metrics, how fast they 276 00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:24,090 Speaker 2: are growing total addressable market, what are the types of 277 00:12:24,099 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: investors that they can attract and 278 00:12:25,856 --> 00:12:28,046 Speaker 2: on board and use all this to make a holistic 279 00:12:28,057 --> 00:12:31,447 Speaker 2: decision about to what extent can I invest my time? 280 00:12:31,456 --> 00:12:33,807 Speaker 2: Because you have to think about yourself as an employee, 281 00:12:33,817 --> 00:12:36,646 Speaker 2: you are actually investing your time and your prime years 282 00:12:36,655 --> 00:12:38,966 Speaker 2: in a company, you want to make sure that it 283 00:12:38,976 --> 00:12:41,807 Speaker 2: is something that is going to pay off because you 284 00:12:41,817 --> 00:12:44,506 Speaker 2: can work super hard at a lousy company and you 285 00:12:44,517 --> 00:12:46,586 Speaker 2: can work the same amount of effort at a fast 286 00:12:46,596 --> 00:12:49,367 Speaker 2: growing dynamic organization and each of them 287 00:12:49,473 --> 00:12:52,414 Speaker 2: two, would you very different results for the efforts that 288 00:12:52,424 --> 00:12:55,364 Speaker 2: you put in? True. It's not just only looking at 289 00:12:55,374 --> 00:12:58,393 Speaker 2: the trajectory of the market, right? Not just saying, OK, 290 00:12:58,403 --> 00:13:01,314 Speaker 2: now A I is the next big thing, the start 291 00:13:01,323 --> 00:13:02,893 Speaker 2: up comes out and say, oh, we're doing A I 292 00:13:03,013 --> 00:13:06,093 Speaker 2: but you need to really look carefully at this company, 293 00:13:06,203 --> 00:13:08,652 Speaker 2: the founders, the growth matrix, everything that you have just 294 00:13:08,664 --> 00:13:09,513 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, 295 00:13:09,523 --> 00:13:12,414 Speaker 1: I've spoken to some people who are considering start up life. 296 00:13:12,583 --> 00:13:13,093 Speaker 1: Like what 297 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:15,750 Speaker 1: was saying, they were more interested in the idea of 298 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,819 Speaker 1: being in a start up than to really look at 299 00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:21,401 Speaker 1: how they can sustain and to be part of the 300 00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:25,580 Speaker 1: startup's success. So the product itself became the sexy thing 301 00:13:25,591 --> 00:13:28,601 Speaker 1: to be part of. But they didn't look into the financials. 302 00:13:28,611 --> 00:13:31,171 Speaker 1: They didn't have a conversation with the leaders to ask 303 00:13:31,181 --> 00:13:32,971 Speaker 1: what's the plan and how are you going to raise 304 00:13:32,981 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: the funds to keep this company floating? So they didn't 305 00:13:35,971 --> 00:13:36,819 Speaker 1: do all these. 306 00:13:37,119 --> 00:13:39,630 Speaker 1: And then after they joined, then it wasn't a very 307 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,809 Speaker 1: good fit, I must say because they thought that they 308 00:13:41,820 --> 00:13:44,109 Speaker 1: had certain ideas that were not validated. Yes. 309 00:13:44,119 --> 00:13:46,359 Speaker 2: Correct. On top of that, it is also important to 310 00:13:46,369 --> 00:13:48,979 Speaker 2: look inward at yourself. So going back to the question, 311 00:13:48,989 --> 00:13:52,169 Speaker 2: what are you optimizing for in this period of your life? 312 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,090 Speaker 2: Why are you prioritizing? Because all this will give you 313 00:13:55,099 --> 00:13:57,780 Speaker 2: answers into whether what you choose as a job would 314 00:13:57,789 --> 00:13:58,299 Speaker 2: be suitable 315 00:13:58,409 --> 00:14:01,098 Speaker 2: for you or not? Something else to look at also 316 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:04,409 Speaker 2: is are you ready? Because at a start up, it 317 00:14:04,419 --> 00:14:06,429 Speaker 2: is very often that you have to do a few 318 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,150 Speaker 2: things that are beyond your job scope. So while my 319 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:13,330 Speaker 2: main role is really on customer acquisition expansion, very often, 320 00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:15,609 Speaker 2: I have to also help out in terms of training 321 00:14:15,770 --> 00:14:19,630 Speaker 2: like building culture, organizing events and all that, 322 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,020 Speaker 2: which is a really fun part, but not everyone might enjoy, 323 00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:26,390 Speaker 2: especially if they would like a lot more work life balance. Yeah. 324 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,039 Speaker 2: So our producer went to talk to some of her 325 00:14:29,049 --> 00:14:32,710 Speaker 2: friends who have started in a start up and that's 326 00:14:32,719 --> 00:14:35,190 Speaker 2: actually one of the common gripes that they gave, which 327 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,580 Speaker 2: is they felt that there was a crazy workload for 328 00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:40,359 Speaker 2: little money to be fair because they're starting up. They 329 00:14:40,369 --> 00:14:42,929 Speaker 2: don't really have a lot of money to pay people and, 330 00:14:42,940 --> 00:14:45,460 Speaker 2: or they might go, I will pay you in equity. 331 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:48,109 Speaker 2: I think increasingly there is a growing group of people 332 00:14:48,119 --> 00:14:50,719 Speaker 2: who want that work life balance, who might feel that 333 00:14:50,849 --> 00:14:54,479 Speaker 2: if I'm hired to do this, why am I scheduling 334 00:14:54,489 --> 00:14:58,460 Speaker 2: calendar invites? Definitely there will be situations whereby some people 335 00:14:58,469 --> 00:15:00,359 Speaker 2: join start ups and then realize that they have to 336 00:15:00,369 --> 00:15:02,159 Speaker 2: do a lot more for the team than what they 337 00:15:02,169 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: sign up for. Having said that I find that the 338 00:15:04,650 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: best type of personality 339 00:15:05,974 --> 00:15:08,625 Speaker 2: that would excel in a start up environment is one 340 00:15:08,635 --> 00:15:12,174 Speaker 2: that embraces the we versus me mindset. So this means 341 00:15:12,184 --> 00:15:15,554 Speaker 2: someone who is thinking in the best interest of the company, 342 00:15:15,565 --> 00:15:18,434 Speaker 2: of the team, happy to share the glory and the 343 00:15:18,445 --> 00:15:21,844 Speaker 2: wins with the team versus just being focused on himself. 344 00:15:21,854 --> 00:15:22,794 Speaker 2: For example, I 345 00:15:22,905 --> 00:15:25,664 Speaker 1: think also going beyond just being a team player, right? 346 00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:29,234 Speaker 1: Because if you're going to part with some precious resource 347 00:15:29,244 --> 00:15:30,674 Speaker 1: that you have on a person, 348 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:33,049 Speaker 1: you're not just looking at whether the person is capable 349 00:15:33,059 --> 00:15:34,489 Speaker 1: to do the work, you also want to really know 350 00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:36,580 Speaker 1: why do you want to do this for me? Like 351 00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:39,429 Speaker 1: you could go to another company, you could join another 352 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,690 Speaker 1: bigger firm in a turn of an eye. So why 353 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,130 Speaker 1: should I invest my time to induct you to put 354 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:45,049 Speaker 1: my precious money 355 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: to train you only to have you leave later. So 356 00:15:47,890 --> 00:15:49,700 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times from a start up 357 00:15:49,710 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: owner's perspective, what they want for the team is to 358 00:15:52,530 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: see not just a person who is willing to do more, 359 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:56,979 Speaker 1: but you're also able to articulate why you want to 360 00:15:56,989 --> 00:15:58,890 Speaker 1: be part of this team. Why do you buy into 361 00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:01,119 Speaker 1: the vision of the company? What is so interesting about 362 00:16:01,130 --> 00:16:01,799 Speaker 1: the work 363 00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:04,219 Speaker 1: that helps you maybe even on a personal basis because 364 00:16:04,229 --> 00:16:06,739 Speaker 1: you know, you cannot compete on benefits, you know, you 365 00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:09,109 Speaker 1: can't compete on pay or progression. So there must be 366 00:16:09,119 --> 00:16:11,390 Speaker 1: something that you're looking for. And if the person is 367 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,479 Speaker 1: able to articulate that, then I think it will be 368 00:16:13,489 --> 00:16:14,349 Speaker 1: a lot better, 369 00:16:14,359 --> 00:16:14,989 Speaker 2: perhaps maybe 370 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,250 Speaker 2: offering a different perspective in the topic of compensation is 371 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:22,559 Speaker 2: a common misconception that start-ups cannot pay market rate or 372 00:16:22,570 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: above market rate, at least for the tech sector or 373 00:16:25,409 --> 00:16:27,700 Speaker 2: the software as a service sector which I'm in. 374 00:16:28,169 --> 00:16:31,099 Speaker 2: I do often find that start-ups can be equally or 375 00:16:31,109 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: if not more competitive because they want to invest in 376 00:16:34,599 --> 00:16:38,239 Speaker 2: going to market, expanding for new customers as well in 377 00:16:38,349 --> 00:16:41,270 Speaker 2: this sector. It doesn't mean that if a company is 378 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,429 Speaker 2: in a start up phase, they will not be able 379 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,140 Speaker 2: to offer as much in terms of compensation as one 380 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:49,679 Speaker 2: that has already gone public. For example, of course, a 381 00:16:49,989 --> 00:16:53,109 Speaker 2: general trend I observe is that in terms of benefits 382 00:16:53,739 --> 00:16:57,229 Speaker 2: might not be as competitive as many of the larger firms. 383 00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:00,869 Speaker 2: And definitely there's opportunity to improve in this area when 384 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,799 Speaker 2: it comes to the early stages of her career, To 385 00:17:03,809 --> 00:17:07,079 Speaker 2: what extent is benefit really? So key, right, especially when 386 00:17:07,089 --> 00:17:10,319 Speaker 2: you do not have dependence at this point. But interesting 387 00:17:10,329 --> 00:17:13,369 Speaker 2: that you were talking about the optimizing at which point 388 00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: of your career do you want stuff? Because so far 389 00:17:16,530 --> 00:17:18,709 Speaker 2: we'll be talking about fresh graduates. But I want to 390 00:17:18,719 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: move the 391 00:17:19,310 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 2: conversation a bit to later point in your career, let's say, 392 00:17:22,489 --> 00:17:25,729 Speaker 2: for example, you are in your maybe early forties and 393 00:17:25,739 --> 00:17:28,938 Speaker 2: you have always had this like itching desire to join 394 00:17:28,949 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: a start up. But then there's always this hold back 395 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 2: because the fear is also stability as well, right? In 396 00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:37,869 Speaker 2: your forties, you are now saddled with a little bit 397 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,420 Speaker 2: more debt, more loans. You now have dependents. What other 398 00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:44,770 Speaker 2: things should somebody consider before taking the leap and say 399 00:17:45,109 --> 00:17:47,669 Speaker 2: it's time for me to move to a start up. 400 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:49,569 Speaker 2: I guess the first thing to look for is really 401 00:17:49,579 --> 00:17:53,479 Speaker 2: your finances, assuming the start up closes down one month 402 00:17:53,489 --> 00:17:56,889 Speaker 2: from now after you join, do you have sufficient savings 403 00:17:56,900 --> 00:17:59,988 Speaker 2: to still live comfortably and not be overly stressed after 404 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: Singapore is an expensive place. Right? And at the same time, 405 00:18:03,530 --> 00:18:06,069 Speaker 2: you also have to consider your family as well. The 406 00:18:06,079 --> 00:18:09,250 Speaker 2: support that they give you is incredibly important and will 407 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:11,369 Speaker 2: really go a long way in helping you to 408 00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:12,718 Speaker 2: write this wave 409 00:18:12,729 --> 00:18:15,430 Speaker 1: of growth. I think finances, you can't run away from that. 410 00:18:15,439 --> 00:18:17,979 Speaker 1: The other thing is also, of course, the mid career 411 00:18:17,989 --> 00:18:19,329 Speaker 1: in their forties. If you are thinking of joining a 412 00:18:19,339 --> 00:18:20,889 Speaker 1: start up, they will be worried. How long would that 413 00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:21,750 Speaker 1: career last? 414 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,389 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious, Gerald, you did that. What prompted you 415 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,969 Speaker 2: to do that crazy idea of moving away from something 416 00:18:27,979 --> 00:18:30,910 Speaker 2: that is so stable and it is guaranteed iron rice 417 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,750 Speaker 2: bowl and then after that setting up your own company. 418 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,739 Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, I think I have something to offer. 419 00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:37,599 Speaker 1: I want to do something different. I think I can 420 00:18:37,609 --> 00:18:39,469 Speaker 1: do a better job and what's out there in the market. 421 00:18:39,709 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: And I want to try and my family member told 422 00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:45,510 Speaker 1: me do it earlier in your fifties. Yes. Do it 423 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: earlier because as you grow older, there are lots of 424 00:18:47,930 --> 00:18:50,930 Speaker 1: opportunity costs. And if you tell someone in their forties 425 00:18:50,939 --> 00:18:52,958 Speaker 1: to consider starting their own business or joining a start up, 426 00:18:52,969 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: they will say what happens if it fails. 427 00:18:54,770 --> 00:18:56,209 Speaker 2: Yeah. So do you have to have that? 428 00:18:56,770 --> 00:18:59,709 Speaker 2: There is a possibility, it might fail, kind of mentality 429 00:18:59,719 --> 00:19:00,390 Speaker 2: at the back of your head. 430 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:00,900 Speaker 1: Definitely. 431 00:19:00,910 --> 00:19:02,770 Speaker 1: For me, I have three other ideas of what I 432 00:19:02,780 --> 00:19:04,670 Speaker 1: might do if these things fails. I see, I have 433 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,609 Speaker 1: some ideas already. So which is ok. They are all 434 00:19:06,619 --> 00:19:08,188 Speaker 1: start ups, they are all start ups or they are 435 00:19:08,199 --> 00:19:10,310 Speaker 1: joining someone else or helping someone else. So, in the 436 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:12,739 Speaker 1: process of career development, we are not locking ourselves in 437 00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:15,790 Speaker 1: one role itself. But I think from a financial perspective 438 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,869 Speaker 1: and also even the external environment where 439 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,770 Speaker 1: people might wonder, ok, in your forties, you join a 440 00:19:20,780 --> 00:19:22,829 Speaker 1: start up and now it failed already. And you want 441 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:25,140 Speaker 1: to come back into the mid size MNC or mid 442 00:19:25,150 --> 00:19:29,020 Speaker 1: size company. There might be other things like maybe age discrimination, 443 00:19:29,329 --> 00:19:31,979 Speaker 1: there could be other factors here that could affect your 444 00:19:31,989 --> 00:19:35,310 Speaker 1: considerations of hiring you. Someone I met yesterday told me, right. 445 00:19:35,319 --> 00:19:37,319 Speaker 1: If you send out your resume at 30 you get 446 00:19:37,329 --> 00:19:38,929 Speaker 1: a lot of calls, you send out a resume at 447 00:19:38,939 --> 00:19:41,270 Speaker 1: 50 you hardly get any calls. And this was the 448 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:42,180 Speaker 1: experience themselves. 449 00:19:42,189 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 2: I 450 00:19:42,209 --> 00:19:45,369 Speaker 2: see a second that as well. I think age discrimination 451 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:48,619 Speaker 2: is definitely unacceptable. But at the same time, it's really 452 00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:48,869 Speaker 2: very 453 00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:52,150 Speaker 2: unfortunate that it's still prevalent in today's society. 454 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, if today I'm a hiring employer in a mid-sized 455 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:57,438 Speaker 1: company and I see a mid career person going to 456 00:19:57,449 --> 00:19:59,319 Speaker 1: the start up. Actually, I would want to see the 457 00:19:59,329 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: person favorably, meaning that this person was willing to leave 458 00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:06,389 Speaker 1: the comforts of a very stable organization to go and 459 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: try something, probably learned a lot 460 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,069 Speaker 1: and you had to leave, not of, let's say, because 461 00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:13,579 Speaker 1: funding ran out. Right. That's not the person's fault. Then 462 00:20:13,589 --> 00:20:15,189 Speaker 1: I want to put on this person because this person 463 00:20:15,199 --> 00:20:17,670 Speaker 1: has shown himself or herself to be adaptable, to be 464 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,959 Speaker 1: also very resourceful, be willing to try, very learnable. So 465 00:20:20,969 --> 00:20:23,300 Speaker 1: I think these are other signals that we can see 466 00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:24,599 Speaker 1: beyond just the age. 467 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,339 Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely would give this person a lot more respect, right? 468 00:20:27,349 --> 00:20:29,890 Speaker 2: Because of the fact that he's willing to leave his 469 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:32,579 Speaker 2: or her comfort zone and try something new and it's 470 00:20:32,589 --> 00:20:33,339 Speaker 2: never easy to 471 00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:36,129 Speaker 2: do things like that, especially the older you get. One 472 00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:38,300 Speaker 2: of the questions that I've heard people talk about and 473 00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:41,319 Speaker 2: we mentioned it earlier is about when start-ups offer you 474 00:20:41,329 --> 00:20:44,599 Speaker 2: equity instead of say cash in terms of your salary, 475 00:20:44,949 --> 00:20:48,589 Speaker 2: we should actually say yes. If the company says, ok, 476 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:51,319 Speaker 2: I would offer you both cash and equity. I guess 477 00:20:51,329 --> 00:20:54,339 Speaker 2: the benefit of joining a start up is always the 478 00:20:54,349 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 2: upside that you get. Right, because in the tech industry, 479 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,619 Speaker 2: there are many people who have really done well for themselves. 480 00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:05,339 Speaker 2: Once the company goes public and they were actually able 481 00:21:05,349 --> 00:21:08,260 Speaker 2: to sell off their shares. I would say that it 482 00:21:08,270 --> 00:21:10,930 Speaker 2: is really common for stocks to be part of someone's 483 00:21:10,939 --> 00:21:14,859 Speaker 2: package whenever they join a new tech company, for example, 484 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,819 Speaker 2: and it's definitely worth taking. You were given stocks. Yes. Correct. 485 00:21:18,829 --> 00:21:22,099 Speaker 2: But at the same time, don't plan your entire future 486 00:21:22,109 --> 00:21:22,579 Speaker 2: on it. 487 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,300 Speaker 2: Because if you think about stock based compensation in private 488 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:31,849 Speaker 2: companies valuations can fluctuate significantly and some might have the 489 00:21:31,859 --> 00:21:34,939 Speaker 2: opportunity to sell their shares at a good time versus 490 00:21:34,949 --> 00:21:37,899 Speaker 2: others as well. Based on the types of the shares 491 00:21:37,910 --> 00:21:40,468 Speaker 2: that you get as well when you enter the company 492 00:21:40,479 --> 00:21:43,050 Speaker 2: is also crucial, right? Because when a company is young, 493 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: the stock value is not so high. So as you 494 00:21:45,010 --> 00:21:47,670 Speaker 2: stay on in the company, the stock value obviously will increase. 495 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,660 Speaker 2: But if you're coming in just right, 496 00:21:50,056 --> 00:21:52,845 Speaker 2: they are about to go public, then it's a bit 497 00:21:52,855 --> 00:21:55,295 Speaker 2: of a different story. It depends on the nature of 498 00:21:55,306 --> 00:21:57,505 Speaker 2: the company and the growth trajectory. There are so many 499 00:21:57,515 --> 00:22:01,696 Speaker 2: factors that can influence valuations at this point. So to 500 00:22:01,705 --> 00:22:04,865 Speaker 2: answer the question about shares salary so far, I do 501 00:22:04,875 --> 00:22:07,696 Speaker 2: not know any company that just pays on shares alone. 502 00:22:07,705 --> 00:22:09,734 Speaker 2: I don't think that companies will only pay your shares alone, 503 00:22:09,744 --> 00:22:11,984 Speaker 2: but I guess is there like a threshold meaning to 504 00:22:11,994 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 2: say cannot exceed a certain yes of your pay package. Wow, 505 00:22:14,926 --> 00:22:16,666 Speaker 2: this one goes back to your own 506 00:22:16,811 --> 00:22:20,031 Speaker 2: convictions in the organization which ties back to the points 507 00:22:20,041 --> 00:22:23,442 Speaker 2: that we spoke about earlier regarding due diligence and also 508 00:22:23,452 --> 00:22:26,041 Speaker 2: your comfort level, right? Whether or not the cash component 509 00:22:26,052 --> 00:22:28,871 Speaker 2: is enough for you to meet your monthly expenses. I 510 00:22:28,881 --> 00:22:31,472 Speaker 2: think today we talk a lot about things like what 511 00:22:31,482 --> 00:22:34,232 Speaker 2: we should look out for before we join the start up. 512 00:22:34,241 --> 00:22:37,041 Speaker 2: We also talked about things like what are some of 513 00:22:37,052 --> 00:22:40,552 Speaker 2: the things to be wary of if you are also 514 00:22:40,561 --> 00:22:42,802 Speaker 2: thinking of making the switch? I think at the end 515 00:22:42,811 --> 00:22:43,671 Speaker 2: of the day, like we always 516 00:22:43,777 --> 00:22:46,806 Speaker 2: say, it's a very personal choice and don't think of 517 00:22:46,817 --> 00:22:49,407 Speaker 2: it as ok if I move towards a start up, 518 00:22:49,417 --> 00:22:51,098 Speaker 2: I'm set on this path for the rest of my 519 00:22:51,108 --> 00:22:55,037 Speaker 2: life because our jobs, things can change and situations can change. 520 00:22:55,248 --> 00:22:57,598 Speaker 2: It's always you can move from one or the other. 521 00:22:57,608 --> 00:22:59,358 Speaker 2: As long as you keep your eyes open 522 00:22:59,368 --> 00:22:59,786 Speaker 1: from my 523 00:22:59,797 --> 00:23:03,147 Speaker 1: own experiences. Majority of Singaporeans still want to stay at 524 00:23:03,157 --> 00:23:05,598 Speaker 1: where you are with a place with a nice pantry, 525 00:23:05,608 --> 00:23:09,056 Speaker 1: dental benefits and there's no disrespect to them. But for 526 00:23:09,067 --> 00:23:10,637 Speaker 1: those of you who really feel like you, 527 00:23:10,744 --> 00:23:14,703 Speaker 1: something like a greater purpose, you feel very strongly towards 528 00:23:14,763 --> 00:23:17,364 Speaker 1: a product or service or solution that's out there. That's 529 00:23:17,374 --> 00:23:19,644 Speaker 1: not within what you're doing now, right? Then go and 530 00:23:19,654 --> 00:23:21,363 Speaker 1: find out a little bit more, go and talk to 531 00:23:21,374 --> 00:23:23,223 Speaker 1: the start up owners or even become a start up 532 00:23:23,234 --> 00:23:25,884 Speaker 1: owner yourself. You never know how far the journey can 533 00:23:25,894 --> 00:23:26,504 Speaker 1: go for you. 534 00:23:26,773 --> 00:23:28,774 Speaker 2: Going back to some of the points that I've been 535 00:23:28,784 --> 00:23:32,984 Speaker 2: reiterating throughout this podcast, firstly, know yourself and what you 536 00:23:32,994 --> 00:23:35,614 Speaker 2: are optimizing for at this point in your life. Is 537 00:23:35,624 --> 00:23:37,644 Speaker 2: it work life balance? Is it impact, 538 00:23:37,959 --> 00:23:41,219 Speaker 2: is it opportunities for growth? All these questions are only 539 00:23:41,229 --> 00:23:43,979 Speaker 2: questions that you can answer for yourself. And the second 540 00:23:43,989 --> 00:23:46,819 Speaker 2: part is really do your own due diligence on the 541 00:23:46,829 --> 00:23:50,010 Speaker 2: company that you are going to join. So take Geraldine's advice, 542 00:23:50,189 --> 00:23:53,219 Speaker 2: pick up that phone or email, speak to that person 543 00:23:53,229 --> 00:23:55,989 Speaker 2: that you potentially want to work for, find out more 544 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,180 Speaker 2: about them. It's ok to just reach out to them. So, 545 00:24:00,189 --> 00:24:02,438 Speaker 2: thank you so much Geraldine for coming in and sharing 546 00:24:02,449 --> 00:24:04,750 Speaker 2: with us, not just your story but very helpful tips 547 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,900 Speaker 2: as well. Thank you. Thank you for having me. 548 00:24:10,969 --> 00:24:14,390 Speaker 2: Hi, we are back with our ask me anything segment 549 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,079 Speaker 2: and today we have a question on ageism. Now, this 550 00:24:18,089 --> 00:24:21,900 Speaker 2: question was sent in by our listener, Kelvin. Kelvin saw 551 00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:25,979 Speaker 2: an Instagram post and it advised not to reveal your 552 00:24:25,989 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: graduation year in your resume. 553 00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 2: And I guess linkedin as well because he said ageism 554 00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:35,930 Speaker 2: is real. Now, Gerald, is that tip valid 555 00:24:35,939 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: in terms of ageism? Is it real? I think? Yes, 556 00:24:39,449 --> 00:24:42,139 Speaker 1: it is. It's something that many employers will not admit to, 557 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: but sometimes it's a subconscious bias as well. Imagine if 558 00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:48,250 Speaker 1: your interview panel, all of them are younger than your candidate, 559 00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: there's already something that maybe in the 560 00:24:50,442 --> 00:24:52,642 Speaker 1: minds of the interviewer, right? But of course, if you 561 00:24:52,652 --> 00:24:55,122 Speaker 1: are referring to what you put on the resume, whether 562 00:24:55,152 --> 00:24:58,743 Speaker 1: you put your graduation year, my personal view is, you know, what, 563 00:24:58,753 --> 00:25:01,703 Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter whether you put there or not. 564 00:25:01,853 --> 00:25:04,223 Speaker 1: And the reason is because if you put it in there, 565 00:25:04,233 --> 00:25:06,892 Speaker 1: the concern here is people can infer your age, right? 566 00:25:07,032 --> 00:25:09,192 Speaker 1: But there are also many other ways that people can 567 00:25:09,203 --> 00:25:11,333 Speaker 1: infer age from your work experiences. The 568 00:25:11,343 --> 00:25:12,133 Speaker 2: first year they used to 569 00:25:12,225 --> 00:25:13,156 Speaker 2: hard work, they can kind of 570 00:25:13,176 --> 00:25:15,385 Speaker 1: tell all your past job experiences. They can tell how 571 00:25:15,395 --> 00:25:17,244 Speaker 1: many years you have worked. Some people say with me, 572 00:25:17,255 --> 00:25:19,666 Speaker 1: the earlier ones, I'll hide, I'll put the more later ones, 573 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:21,475 Speaker 1: but then you also can total up the number of 574 00:25:21,484 --> 00:25:23,196 Speaker 1: years you work. I would even say sometimes even from 575 00:25:23,205 --> 00:25:25,115 Speaker 1: the name, you can also guess the age I 576 00:25:25,125 --> 00:25:28,286 Speaker 2: see like a Lawrence, you know, of which 577 00:25:28,296 --> 00:25:28,826 Speaker 2: vintage, 578 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:31,005 Speaker 1: there are some names that are very gen Z and 579 00:25:31,015 --> 00:25:33,305 Speaker 1: there are some names that are a bit older Ken Jaden. 580 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,099 Speaker 1: So there are lots of ways to discriminate against people. 581 00:25:38,109 --> 00:25:38,260 Speaker 1: So 582 00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:40,389 Speaker 2: obviously, if this is coming from a point of view 583 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,020 Speaker 2: is that if recruiters really wanted to discriminate you, there 584 00:25:44,030 --> 00:25:46,579 Speaker 2: are a lot of, I guess markers that they can 585 00:25:46,589 --> 00:25:50,329 Speaker 2: use to look out for these signs. But ordinarily you 586 00:25:50,339 --> 00:25:53,369 Speaker 2: are saying that it's just a point of reference for them. 587 00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: The only advice I will give is for resume writing. 588 00:25:56,170 --> 00:25:58,489 Speaker 1: Maybe don't put in your primary school leaving cert year, 589 00:25:58,500 --> 00:25:59,329 Speaker 1: your secondary 590 00:25:59,339 --> 00:25:59,609 Speaker 2: school, 591 00:26:00,410 --> 00:26:01,010 Speaker 2: primary school, 592 00:26:01,672 --> 00:26:03,662 Speaker 1: maybe you are the kind that got very high scores 593 00:26:03,672 --> 00:26:06,412 Speaker 1: or your primary school is your primary school is very 594 00:26:06,422 --> 00:26:09,703 Speaker 1: branded kind, but typically employers just want to see the 595 00:26:09,713 --> 00:26:12,842 Speaker 1: latest qualification. You have the highest one, maybe the top two, 596 00:26:12,853 --> 00:26:15,483 Speaker 1: maybe your diploma or your JC or something. But you 597 00:26:15,493 --> 00:26:16,753 Speaker 1: don't have to put all the way back because I've 598 00:26:16,762 --> 00:26:18,092 Speaker 1: seen some people who really put all the way in 599 00:26:18,103 --> 00:26:21,061 Speaker 1: primary school and then the year really looks very long 600 00:26:21,071 --> 00:26:24,223 Speaker 1: time ago. Right. So then that sets like, ok, too 601 00:26:24,233 --> 00:26:26,383 Speaker 1: long already. But if you are, let's say getting your 602 00:26:26,392 --> 00:26:26,782 Speaker 1: degree 603 00:26:26,994 --> 00:26:29,295 Speaker 1: or your diploma at a certain year in the past, 604 00:26:29,306 --> 00:26:31,754 Speaker 1: I think people can still accept that if it's the 605 00:26:31,765 --> 00:26:33,984 Speaker 1: only number that so don't put too many numbers. That's 606 00:26:33,994 --> 00:26:35,605 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say. I think also we need 607 00:26:35,615 --> 00:26:38,186 Speaker 1: to give recruiters more credit for what they do. They 608 00:26:38,196 --> 00:26:40,186 Speaker 1: don't look at every resume and see which year and 609 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:42,666 Speaker 1: try to penalize people, they try to look for the 610 00:26:42,676 --> 00:26:45,615 Speaker 1: quality of the resume, what the person has done, what 611 00:26:45,625 --> 00:26:47,056 Speaker 1: the person wants to do, what the person is good 612 00:26:47,066 --> 00:26:49,015 Speaker 1: at doing. What's the value that they can bring forward 613 00:26:49,026 --> 00:26:51,225 Speaker 1: in the company? So, what they are looking for in 614 00:26:51,234 --> 00:26:52,505 Speaker 1: the resume is coherence. 615 00:26:52,819 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: Exactly. If I take a seven second glance of your resume, right. 616 00:26:55,729 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 1: I know what you can do very clearly. But then 617 00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:01,209 Speaker 2: say, for example, if I'm a recruiter and I know 618 00:27:01,219 --> 00:27:03,250 Speaker 2: that the salary I'm going to be paying for this 619 00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:06,079 Speaker 2: job is very entry level. And then I have somebody 620 00:27:06,089 --> 00:27:08,969 Speaker 2: who they are already in their forties, then I know 621 00:27:08,979 --> 00:27:10,869 Speaker 2: that this person is going to try and 622 00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:13,089 Speaker 2: negotiate with me and we're going to get into a 623 00:27:13,099 --> 00:27:17,069 Speaker 2: very long process about how to give more salary or 624 00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:20,609 Speaker 2: even if this person says yes to this entry level salary, 625 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,869 Speaker 2: because they have had so many years working they might 626 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,708 Speaker 2: not stay. So I think there is still that consideration 627 00:27:26,719 --> 00:27:28,020 Speaker 2: that I guess some recruiters will 628 00:27:28,030 --> 00:27:28,489 Speaker 2: have. 629 00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 1: So when they look at the resume, they assess the 630 00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:32,589 Speaker 1: value of what they are getting. 631 00:27:32,859 --> 00:27:34,909 Speaker 1: And then they also have to look back at, for example, 632 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: what they're willing to pay. What's the budget for the role? Yes, 633 00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:39,150 Speaker 1: they will have that kind of consideration. They might also 634 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: consider things like the fit, for example, your job titles 635 00:27:42,729 --> 00:27:44,969 Speaker 1: if today you have been leading teams, but this entry 636 00:27:44,979 --> 00:27:47,180 Speaker 1: level role doesn't allow you or doesn't require you to 637 00:27:47,189 --> 00:27:49,438 Speaker 1: lead teams. One concern would be like, would you be 638 00:27:49,449 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: able to be a team player instead of being a 639 00:27:52,050 --> 00:27:53,910 Speaker 1: team leader? Would you be comfortable with that? 640 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:55,390 Speaker 2: So, like you say, they will look at your past 641 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 2: experience rather than the year of graduation. Yes, because the 642 00:27:58,489 --> 00:28:00,829 Speaker 2: year of graduation by the sounds of it doesn't 643 00:28:00,954 --> 00:28:03,775 Speaker 2: really play so big a factor because what else can 644 00:28:03,785 --> 00:28:05,814 Speaker 2: it tell you except the fact that you are young 645 00:28:05,824 --> 00:28:06,854 Speaker 2: or you are older? Yes. 646 00:28:06,864 --> 00:28:09,265 Speaker 1: Correct. So eventually at some point, they're going to find 647 00:28:09,275 --> 00:28:11,364 Speaker 1: out your age anyway. So if today you put it 648 00:28:11,375 --> 00:28:14,234 Speaker 1: in there. And if they discriminate you based on that 649 00:28:14,244 --> 00:28:16,165 Speaker 1: age thing, they might as well because you're not going 650 00:28:16,175 --> 00:28:17,454 Speaker 1: to get a job anyway because when they are going 651 00:28:17,464 --> 00:28:19,925 Speaker 1: to see you and you're going to realize that you're 652 00:28:19,935 --> 00:28:21,915 Speaker 1: not quite what I expected you to be and they 653 00:28:21,925 --> 00:28:23,194 Speaker 1: are going to turn you on. So it's maybe better 654 00:28:23,204 --> 00:28:24,935 Speaker 1: not to work for the company. Ok. Yeah. So I 655 00:28:24,944 --> 00:28:27,055 Speaker 1: would say, don't worry too much about putting in the 656 00:28:27,064 --> 00:28:28,935 Speaker 1: numbers of your graduation year. 657 00:28:29,239 --> 00:28:31,540 Speaker 1: What you want to use your resume for the emphasis 658 00:28:31,550 --> 00:28:33,349 Speaker 1: of it is to really present the value of what 659 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,859 Speaker 1: you want to do and make sure it's coherent because 660 00:28:35,869 --> 00:28:38,729 Speaker 1: most people in their resumes, they want to put everything 661 00:28:38,739 --> 00:28:41,020 Speaker 1: that they have done before. But what we want to 662 00:28:41,030 --> 00:28:43,410 Speaker 1: show is the best bits of what we can do 663 00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,939 Speaker 1: and in a manner that is coherent, that means once 664 00:28:45,949 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: we read in 58 seconds, we know what this person 665 00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:48,989 Speaker 1: can do. So 666 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:49,229 Speaker 2: in a 667 00:28:49,239 --> 00:28:52,410 Speaker 2: nutshell very quickly, would you recommend to put in your 668 00:28:52,420 --> 00:28:53,060 Speaker 2: graduation year? 669 00:28:53,150 --> 00:28:55,189 Speaker 1: Yes. OK. I would recommend put in but don't put 670 00:28:55,199 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: the primary school. 671 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,930 Speaker 2: So remember, don't put your primary school, you love your 672 00:28:58,939 --> 00:29:00,449 Speaker 2: primary school. You don't have to put your primary school. 673 00:29:00,459 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 2: So going back to the question that we said early 674 00:29:03,010 --> 00:29:06,550 Speaker 2: on is ageism real. We're going to have an episode 675 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,540 Speaker 2: on that. We're going to talk about workplace discrimination and 676 00:29:09,550 --> 00:29:10,770 Speaker 2: that's coming up soon. 677 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 2: But if you have a work related question, do continue 678 00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:16,390 Speaker 2: to send to us. We are at CN A podcasts 679 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,609 Speaker 2: at media corp.com dot SG. We're also on Spotify Apple 680 00:29:20,619 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 2: podcast and youtube where a video version of this is 681 00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:27,380 Speaker 2: at the team behind the work it podcast is Christina 682 00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:30,989 Speaker 2: Robert Joan Chan, Juani Johari sa we and to Yan 683 00:29:31,270 --> 00:29:35,260 Speaker 2: Yan sound mixing is by Cary Lim video by Hanina Amin. 684 00:29:35,270 --> 00:29:39,219 Speaker 2: I'm Jol and I'm Tiffany. have a super work week ahead.