1 00:00:00,159 --> 00:00:02,490 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast? 2 00:00:09,340 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Hi, guys. I want to tell you about something that 3 00:00:11,609 --> 00:00:14,989 Speaker 1: happened to me. In 2018. I was on the train 4 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,809 Speaker 1: in Singapore on a Sunday. It was about one in 5 00:00:17,819 --> 00:00:21,169 Speaker 1: the afternoon sitting across from me was an older man. 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,979 Speaker 1: Suddenly the young couple sitting next to him shouted, he's 7 00:00:24,989 --> 00:00:27,729 Speaker 1: taking photos of you. He's trying to zoom up your skirt. 8 00:00:28,190 --> 00:00:30,110 Speaker 1: I was caught off guard and I didn't know what 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,568 Speaker 1: to do. The man disembarked at the next station not 10 00:00:33,580 --> 00:00:34,490 Speaker 1: saying a word. 11 00:00:34,819 --> 00:00:38,168 Speaker 1: I filed a police report but like many cases of 12 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:41,470 Speaker 1: voyeurism and harassment, the perpetrator was not caught. 13 00:00:44,049 --> 00:00:47,110 Speaker 1: The Me Too movement that swept across North America has 14 00:00:47,119 --> 00:00:52,759 Speaker 1: changed the conversations we have around sexual harassment and gender inequality. 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,790 Speaker 1: And now it's reached the shores of Taiwan. In this 16 00:00:56,799 --> 00:01:00,180 Speaker 1: episode of CN A correspondent Victoria Jen tells us about 17 00:01:00,189 --> 00:01:03,130 Speaker 1: the Me Too campaign on the island and what prompted 18 00:01:03,139 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: the surge in advocacy. 19 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,069 Speaker 1: Hi, Vic. Hi. I'm so glad to be talking about 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,029 Speaker 1: this with you because for victims, you know, often the 21 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,449 Speaker 1: hardest part is speaking about what happened 22 00:01:14,870 --> 00:01:17,300 Speaker 1: and in a place like Taiwan, one of the most 23 00:01:17,309 --> 00:01:22,019 Speaker 1: progressive democracies in Asia, harassment and sexual violence have been 24 00:01:22,029 --> 00:01:25,300 Speaker 1: taboo topics for many, for a very long time. Can 25 00:01:25,309 --> 00:01:28,639 Speaker 1: you tell us why? Well, it's quite ironic, isn't it? 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,540 Speaker 1: One of the reasons is because, um, victims don't want 27 00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:37,739 Speaker 1: to ruin relationships with people, especially at workplaces. Now, it's 28 00:01:37,750 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 1: very important to keep good relationship, 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,410 Speaker 1: workplace, to climb the corporate ladder. So they're afraid that 30 00:01:44,419 --> 00:01:48,230 Speaker 1: by speaking up it might make them seem like troublemakers 31 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:51,709 Speaker 1: and put their jobs at risk. Another reason that keep 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,010 Speaker 1: many women from reporting sexual harassment is largely due to 33 00:01:56,019 --> 00:01:59,089 Speaker 1: the lack of evidence. Now, a lot of them don't 34 00:01:59,099 --> 00:02:02,660 Speaker 1: think that they have enough evidence to prove that they 35 00:02:02,669 --> 00:02:05,709 Speaker 1: were harassed. So they decided to keep silent. 36 00:02:05,970 --> 00:02:09,220 Speaker 1: All that changed though, right? With a Netflix program of 37 00:02:09,229 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: all things, I personally haven't seen the series, but I 38 00:02:12,449 --> 00:02:16,020 Speaker 1: watched the trailer, the program is called Wave Makers and 39 00:02:16,029 --> 00:02:19,418 Speaker 1: it looks like your typical political drama, you know, campaign 40 00:02:19,429 --> 00:02:22,758 Speaker 1: staffers in the run up to a presidential election in Taiwan. 41 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:26,500 Speaker 1: But vic there was something about it that really struck viewers. 42 00:02:26,508 --> 00:02:29,940 Speaker 1: What was it? Well, in this iconic scene, a young 43 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:34,059 Speaker 1: female aide told her mentor that harassment she had endured 44 00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: from a male colleague instead of telling her to let go. 45 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,559 Speaker 1: The mentor told her and I quote, let's not just 46 00:02:41,570 --> 00:02:44,330 Speaker 1: let this one go. Ok. We can, 47 00:02:44,419 --> 00:02:48,130 Speaker 1: we can't let things go easily. Otherwise we will wither 48 00:02:48,139 --> 00:02:52,029 Speaker 1: away and die unquote. Now the scene has prompted a 49 00:02:52,038 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: former DPP staffer to post on Facebook on how her 50 00:02:56,529 --> 00:03:00,589 Speaker 1: supervisor asked her to bury her sexual harassment claim. And 51 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,690 Speaker 1: that post went viral and motivated many people to come forward. 52 00:03:06,179 --> 00:03:09,669 Speaker 1: And that's how the movement started. And the scene clearly 53 00:03:09,679 --> 00:03:14,029 Speaker 1: resonated with many female viewers who were often asked to 54 00:03:14,038 --> 00:03:18,109 Speaker 1: let go of their sexual harassment claims. Wow. So art 55 00:03:18,119 --> 00:03:22,130 Speaker 1: imitating life in that example. And at the heart of 56 00:03:22,139 --> 00:03:24,948 Speaker 1: the TV report that you put together on this issue 57 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,649 Speaker 1: is a woman named Jenny. You sat down with her 58 00:03:28,660 --> 00:03:30,770 Speaker 1: and she shared her story with you. 59 00:03:30,990 --> 00:03:34,029 Speaker 1: First off, how did you find her? And secondly, how 60 00:03:34,038 --> 00:03:37,279 Speaker 1: comfortable was she to tell you her story? Well, Jenny 61 00:03:37,289 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: Chen is a friend of mine. So she was quite 62 00:03:39,369 --> 00:03:43,380 Speaker 1: comfortable about telling me her experience and she said her 63 00:03:43,389 --> 00:03:47,679 Speaker 1: male colleague brushed through her hair intimately during a work 64 00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: discussion and that uncomfortable 65 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,089 Speaker 1: made her stand up and leave right away, but she 66 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:57,570 Speaker 1: didn't file a complaint because she was afraid that nobody 67 00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:00,589 Speaker 1: would believe her. And she thought that it could also 68 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,550 Speaker 1: make her seem like a troublemaker which could cost her 69 00:04:03,559 --> 00:04:07,130 Speaker 1: her job. And worst of all, she was so scared 70 00:04:07,139 --> 00:04:09,350 Speaker 1: of the man that she would try to avoid him 71 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:10,089 Speaker 1: at work. 72 00:04:10,380 --> 00:04:13,229 Speaker 1: But now that after the Me Too movement, she said 73 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,618 Speaker 1: she would have more courage to speak up. Now, let's 74 00:04:16,630 --> 00:04:18,779 Speaker 1: hear what Jenny had to say 75 00:04:20,690 --> 00:04:23,910 Speaker 2: because nobody was around and I wasn't sure there was 76 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,149 Speaker 2: a surveillance camera. If I spoke out, nobody would believe me. 77 00:04:28,178 --> 00:04:31,380 Speaker 2: If you speak up now, more people will believe you. 78 00:04:31,390 --> 00:04:34,428 Speaker 2: So that encourages more victims to come forward and talk 79 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:35,709 Speaker 2: about their experience. 80 00:04:36,399 --> 00:04:41,178 Speaker 1: Her story, unfortunately, vic is not unique and some stories 81 00:04:41,190 --> 00:04:45,308 Speaker 1: involving men from the upper echelons of business and government 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,649 Speaker 1: in Taiwan have also started coming out of the woodwork too. 83 00:04:48,700 --> 00:04:50,100 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about those? 84 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:53,529 Speaker 1: Yes, the me too wave has started in the political 85 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: circle with at least 10 people linked to the ruling 86 00:04:56,609 --> 00:05:00,890 Speaker 1: democratic progressive party have been implicated. And this has led 87 00:05:00,899 --> 00:05:04,709 Speaker 1: both President Tsai Wen and Vice President William Bly to 88 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,369 Speaker 1: issue public apologies. The wave further swept to academia, culture 89 00:05:10,380 --> 00:05:12,510 Speaker 1: and even entertainment industry 90 00:05:12,988 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: allegations were made against famous celebrities like Mickey Hung. No, no, 91 00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Aaron Yang and Blackie Chan. They have all been forced 92 00:05:22,450 --> 00:05:25,019 Speaker 1: to withdraw from the spotlight ever since 93 00:05:25,359 --> 00:05:29,190 Speaker 1: now. People are very shocked at these stories because these 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,070 Speaker 1: celebrities have kept uh quite a positive image and there's 95 00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:37,769 Speaker 1: speculation that more celebrities may have been involved in sexual harassment, 96 00:05:37,779 --> 00:05:41,149 Speaker 1: but they just haven't been reported yet. Could just be 97 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,980 Speaker 1: scratching the surface. Can you talk a bit more about 98 00:05:43,988 --> 00:05:47,109 Speaker 1: what the public's response to those stories have been? Uh 99 00:05:47,119 --> 00:05:51,209 Speaker 1: you mentioned they were shocked uh have people expressed how 100 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:54,390 Speaker 1: shocking this all is for them? Uh Yes, basically 101 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,709 Speaker 1: they are really shocked because a lot of these celebrities 102 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,779 Speaker 1: are very popular figures in Taiwan. And then uh they 103 00:06:02,790 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: have very positive image to many of the viewers and 104 00:06:06,649 --> 00:06:10,380 Speaker 1: so that they are very disappointed in that, you know, 105 00:06:10,390 --> 00:06:14,678 Speaker 1: some of their idols would actually engage in such crimes. 106 00:06:14,690 --> 00:06:16,890 Speaker 1: A lot of them were very shocked and this is 107 00:06:16,899 --> 00:06:20,700 Speaker 1: something that they talk about. Um, almost every single day. 108 00:06:20,709 --> 00:06:22,649 Speaker 1: It's on the news every single day. 109 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,220 Speaker 1: Alright. Stay with us. Coming up. These conversations, these testimonies 110 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:32,850 Speaker 1: are being heard. Even the Taiwan legislature is taking steps 111 00:06:32,859 --> 00:06:37,470 Speaker 1: to provide more protection for victims details after this short break. 112 00:06:41,470 --> 00:06:44,589 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. My name is Christina and I'm Adrian and 113 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: we're the host of a podcast called Work It if 114 00:06:46,928 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: you never heard of it. Well, it's a good time 115 00:06:48,928 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: to tap in, in the last 20 episodes. We've discussed 116 00:06:51,649 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: topics like how to negotiate for a salary increase or 117 00:06:54,769 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: how to get along with younger colleagues who have different 118 00:06:57,369 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: values from you, which 119 00:06:58,834 --> 00:07:02,475 Speaker 1: incidentally it's our top performing episode. If work consumes your 120 00:07:02,484 --> 00:07:06,144 Speaker 1: life and you want some perspective on issues like management stress, 121 00:07:06,154 --> 00:07:10,035 Speaker 1: even office romance, then this podcast should be on your list. 122 00:07:10,225 --> 00:07:13,114 Speaker 1: A new episode drops every Monday. Catch us on the 123 00:07:13,125 --> 00:07:16,144 Speaker 1: CN AM or wherever you get your podcast. 124 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:27,730 Speaker 1: Welcome back. Now, listen to this stat from Taiwan's Labor Ministry. 125 00:07:27,739 --> 00:07:31,570 Speaker 1: A survey they conducted showed as many as 80% of 126 00:07:31,579 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: those who experienced sexual harassment in the workplace did not 127 00:07:35,769 --> 00:07:39,609 Speaker 1: file a complaint. Some say it's because they've lost faith 128 00:07:39,619 --> 00:07:42,929 Speaker 1: in the system. But vic the system is changing, isn't it? 129 00:07:43,690 --> 00:07:47,519 Speaker 1: That's right. The movement has prompted the government to push 130 00:07:47,529 --> 00:07:52,269 Speaker 1: for an amendment on Taiwan's equality laws. Employers who commit 131 00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:58,260 Speaker 1: sexual harassment will now face fines as large as $32,000. 132 00:07:58,269 --> 00:08:01,209 Speaker 1: And as long as three years in prison under the 133 00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:02,839 Speaker 1: revised legislation, 134 00:08:03,130 --> 00:08:08,179 Speaker 1: other amendments will strengthen the appealing process and legal counseling 135 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:12,239 Speaker 1: for victims of sexual harassment. So they will provide more 136 00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:15,380 Speaker 1: protection and enhanced sexual harassment prevention. 137 00:08:16,059 --> 00:08:18,890 Speaker 1: But when can we expect to see change in workplaces 138 00:08:18,899 --> 00:08:21,450 Speaker 1: in Taiwan? How long is this gonna take? What's going 139 00:08:21,459 --> 00:08:24,519 Speaker 1: to happen next? Well, the amendments are now at the 140 00:08:24,529 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: legislature for approval and they're likely to be passed at 141 00:08:28,250 --> 00:08:32,299 Speaker 1: the end of this month. Now, in addition to the legislature, 142 00:08:32,309 --> 00:08:35,738 Speaker 1: the government is also going to raise public awareness of 143 00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:38,090 Speaker 1: sexual harassment through education. 144 00:08:38,429 --> 00:08:43,238 Speaker 1: Women rights groups are also providing legal counseling to victims 145 00:08:43,249 --> 00:08:46,879 Speaker 1: um and channels where they can file complaints. So we're 146 00:08:46,888 --> 00:08:51,398 Speaker 1: definitely going to see more victims coming forward. Victim blaming 147 00:08:51,408 --> 00:08:55,658 Speaker 1: culture often prevents women from coming forward as well. And 148 00:08:55,669 --> 00:08:58,129 Speaker 1: even with my own experience vic, I was wearing a 149 00:08:58,138 --> 00:09:00,499 Speaker 1: knee length dress that day. I was on the train 150 00:09:00,508 --> 00:09:04,049 Speaker 1: and I've often wondered, you know, did I do anything, 151 00:09:04,059 --> 00:09:05,818 Speaker 1: was I to blame in any way? 152 00:09:06,070 --> 00:09:10,150 Speaker 1: Do you think that victim blaming culture is changing in Taiwan? Yes, 153 00:09:10,159 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: it's definitely changing after the me too movement, women rights 154 00:09:14,090 --> 00:09:17,219 Speaker 1: group I interviewed said that the number of phone calls 155 00:09:17,229 --> 00:09:22,619 Speaker 1: on sexual harassment complaints has increased tenfold since the movement began. 156 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: And more women feel that it's not their fault that 157 00:09:25,690 --> 00:09:28,770 Speaker 1: they were sexually harassed and even those who were in 158 00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:32,609 Speaker 1: doubt or willing to come forward and request for help. Now, 159 00:09:32,619 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: I spoke to Wang, she's the executive director for the 160 00:09:36,729 --> 00:09:40,419 Speaker 1: Garden of Eden Foundation. And here's what she had to 161 00:09:40,429 --> 00:09:40,909 Speaker 1: say 162 00:09:43,270 --> 00:09:47,020 Speaker 1: since the movement victims have realized it's not just them 163 00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:51,460 Speaker 1: but many others too. This helps break the silence and isolation, 164 00:09:51,469 --> 00:09:56,130 Speaker 1: forcing Taiwanese society to take sexual harassment more seriously and 165 00:09:56,140 --> 00:09:58,579 Speaker 1: encouraging more victims to come forward. 166 00:09:59,419 --> 00:10:02,590 Speaker 1: And after covering this story of speaking to your friend 167 00:10:02,599 --> 00:10:06,359 Speaker 1: Jenny and talking to so many advocates and survivors, has 168 00:10:06,369 --> 00:10:10,289 Speaker 1: your view of being a woman in Taiwan changed vic. Well, 169 00:10:10,299 --> 00:10:12,739 Speaker 1: I have to say that as a woman here, I 170 00:10:12,750 --> 00:10:17,090 Speaker 1: do feel more empowered by the movement. I've also become 171 00:10:17,099 --> 00:10:20,630 Speaker 1: more aware that I don't have to be asylum victim. 172 00:10:21,070 --> 00:10:25,459 Speaker 1: There are now harsher laws against sexual harassment and they 173 00:10:25,469 --> 00:10:29,059 Speaker 1: make me feel more safe than before. And I think 174 00:10:29,070 --> 00:10:33,260 Speaker 1: men also have become more aware about what they say 175 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:37,020 Speaker 1: and what they do may have consequences. So the movement 176 00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:40,619 Speaker 1: has definitely changed Taiwan and made it a safer place 177 00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:44,309 Speaker 1: for women. That's great. Thank you so much VIC for 178 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,729 Speaker 1: joining me today. I'm so glad that we and so 179 00:10:46,739 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: many others are having this conversation. Thank you 180 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,619 Speaker 1: the TV. Version of CN A correspondent airs on CNN 181 00:10:53,630 --> 00:10:56,909 Speaker 1: every Wednesday at 9 30 pm. Catch up with them 182 00:10:56,919 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: any time on CN A dot Asia. The team behind 183 00:11:00,409 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: this episode is Clara Ong, Christina Robert and me, Theresa 184 00:11:04,849 --> 00:11:06,210 Speaker 1: Tang until next time.