1 00:00:03,519 --> 00:00:05,860 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,750 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Deep Dive. It's that special 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,139 Speaker 1: podcast with Christina and I Steven. And today we're talking 4 00:00:16,149 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: about a certain type of mobility device. P MA si 5 00:00:20,090 --> 00:00:22,259 Speaker 1: know about P MD. Those were like the E scooters. 6 00:00:22,270 --> 00:00:24,058 Speaker 1: I remember some time back we had to ban them 7 00:00:24,069 --> 00:00:25,979 Speaker 1: because they were causing such a mess in our streets. 8 00:00:26,010 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: That's right. But P MA S, that's a personal mobility aid. 9 00:00:30,049 --> 00:00:34,740 Speaker 1: The P MA S are used by elderly and 10 00:00:34,830 --> 00:00:40,580 Speaker 1: people with medical conditions. Now PM DS though are regulated, 11 00:00:40,759 --> 00:00:44,490 Speaker 1: you cannot be a non U 2272 version of it. 12 00:00:45,259 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: Do you remember a certain type of battery that's legally 13 00:00:49,569 --> 00:00:52,250 Speaker 1: allowed because of all the fires that were taking place, 14 00:00:52,259 --> 00:00:54,380 Speaker 1: you know, but essentially that one, anyone can use a 15 00:00:54,389 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: P MD. Yes, there's even a motorized luggage. Did you 16 00:00:58,049 --> 00:01:00,169 Speaker 1: know about this? I've seen those in the airport. 17 00:01:01,049 --> 00:01:03,209 Speaker 1: I don't know. Does it classify under P MD? Will 18 00:01:03,220 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: you ever be caught sitting on a motor? So I 19 00:01:08,050 --> 00:01:11,550 Speaker 1: live in Yishun and I see a lot of able 20 00:01:11,709 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: bodied people sometimes with families in tow, sitting on these 21 00:01:17,410 --> 00:01:21,169 Speaker 1: big vehicles and they are on the footpath, that means 22 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:25,980 Speaker 1: a shared footpath with people and sometimes it sounds a 23 00:01:25,989 --> 00:01:27,830 Speaker 1: bit scary and a bit dangerous. 24 00:01:27,940 --> 00:01:30,230 Speaker 1: I have seen that whole families on it and that's 25 00:01:30,239 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: what we want to talk about today because these mobility 26 00:01:32,330 --> 00:01:35,599 Speaker 1: devices are being used not only by those who need 27 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: some support and assistance, but by able bodied people as well. 28 00:01:39,169 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, bringing their whole families on a 29 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:44,150 Speaker 1: bit of a jolly as well. So why is this happening? 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: You know what's going on and why do a certain 31 00:01:46,769 --> 00:01:49,510 Speaker 1: group of people tend to use them more than others? 32 00:01:49,519 --> 00:01:51,849 Speaker 1: Can we do anything about it? Can police do anything 33 00:01:51,860 --> 00:01:54,239 Speaker 1: about it? Should we regulate it? These are the questions 34 00:01:54,250 --> 00:01:54,779 Speaker 1: we have 35 00:01:58,610 --> 00:02:02,019 Speaker 1: with us to talk about. This are Michael Kwan, he 36 00:02:02,029 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: is founder and CEO of project elevate. Hi Michael Michael 37 00:02:06,809 --> 00:02:10,899 Speaker 1: uses A PM and Florence Chong. She's a member of 38 00:02:10,910 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: the Active Mobility Advisory panel where she has been since 2015. Yes, 39 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:19,389 Speaker 1: but her day job is I'm an occupational therapist at 40 00:02:19,410 --> 00:02:22,559 Speaker 1: Tan Sing Hospital. Ok. Let's jump right into it. Florence, 41 00:02:22,570 --> 00:02:23,788 Speaker 1: we will start with you because you've been on the 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: panel for several years now. We kind of tried to 43 00:02:26,169 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: summarize the whole PM 44 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:29,789 Speaker 1: PM in a very short way. Did we get it right. 45 00:02:29,940 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: What is the real intent here in terms of these 46 00:02:32,449 --> 00:02:35,929 Speaker 1: devices out and about the advisory panel, the role that 47 00:02:35,940 --> 00:02:38,609 Speaker 1: it plays maybe you can explain to people. The advisory 48 00:02:38,619 --> 00:02:42,050 Speaker 1: panel actually was created in 2015. The purpose is to 49 00:02:42,059 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: actually encourage the active mobility landscape in Singapore, to get 50 00:02:46,809 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: people to be Carli and also to use more of 51 00:02:49,729 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: these active mobility devices in a safe and considerate manner. 52 00:02:53,899 --> 00:02:56,039 Speaker 1: So that overall that we can make this a more 53 00:02:56,179 --> 00:02:58,779 Speaker 1: spacious kind of commuting. And just for clarity, when you 54 00:02:58,788 --> 00:03:03,029 Speaker 1: say active mobility devices, we're talking about bicycles a whole range. 55 00:03:03,038 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: This is a whole range actually. So they can range 56 00:03:05,369 --> 00:03:09,570 Speaker 1: from non motorized devices such as like bicycles, even like 57 00:03:09,580 --> 00:03:12,630 Speaker 1: cake scooters, manual cake scooters, and also even the manual 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,690 Speaker 1: wheelchairs to motorize devices. On the other hand, e scooters, 59 00:03:17,830 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: things like hoverboards, right to the PM, which are motorized, 60 00:03:22,529 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 1: like the wheelchair that Michael is using now, 61 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:29,669 Speaker 1: as well as the mobility scooters. There's a huge range, 62 00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:31,758 Speaker 1: pretty much anything that can help you get around. Is 63 00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:34,820 Speaker 1: there some confusion because some people think that ok PM 64 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:37,199 Speaker 1: PM DS, everything is the same. There might be some 65 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:40,660 Speaker 1: confusion but actually the broad classification or whether they are 66 00:03:40,669 --> 00:03:45,389 Speaker 1: actually motorized or not motorized. So as long as there's 67 00:03:45,399 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: a battery and some kind of a motorized system that's 68 00:03:48,809 --> 00:03:52,559 Speaker 1: driving control kind of driving control. Ok, Michael, maybe you 69 00:03:52,570 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: can weigh in a little bit. 70 00:03:54,130 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: So you've been using a PM for how 71 00:03:56,130 --> 00:03:56,539 Speaker 1: long 72 00:03:56,610 --> 00:04:00,300 Speaker 2: around 20 years before that I was using elbow crutches, 73 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,550 Speaker 2: but my knee got very weak and the doctor wanted 74 00:04:03,559 --> 00:04:06,529 Speaker 2: me to stop walking outside. I still walk at home. 75 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:09,220 Speaker 2: But walking outside when it comes to rain and things 76 00:04:09,229 --> 00:04:11,990 Speaker 2: like that, I might actually hurt my knee if I fall. 77 00:04:12,210 --> 00:04:15,100 Speaker 2: The cartilage is very loose. So that's why I switched 78 00:04:15,110 --> 00:04:16,868 Speaker 2: to wheelchair, motorized wheelchair. 79 00:04:16,970 --> 00:04:19,989 Speaker 1: So you must have seen the huge difference now on 80 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:20,519 Speaker 1: the roads. 81 00:04:20,678 --> 00:04:21,500 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, I 82 00:04:21,510 --> 00:04:21,820 Speaker 2: do 83 00:04:21,829 --> 00:04:24,390 Speaker 1: tell me what's the thing that shocks you the most, 84 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: one of the things is I say, able body to 85 00:04:27,450 --> 00:04:29,899 Speaker 2: sit on this P MA and they do have a 86 00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:33,519 Speaker 2: disabled sticker, stick on it and they think that they 87 00:04:33,529 --> 00:04:36,549 Speaker 2: are disabled. But then after they reach a leave, they 88 00:04:36,559 --> 00:04:40,368 Speaker 2: miraculously could stand up and go and deliver the food 89 00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:45,058 Speaker 2: to me, that is fine. But one thing I am 90 00:04:45,070 --> 00:04:47,019 Speaker 2: really concerned about is the width 91 00:04:47,140 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: of their chair sometimes at a pedestrian path. It's only 92 00:04:50,649 --> 00:04:53,959 Speaker 2: that big. And if an opposite guy coming to me 93 00:04:54,089 --> 00:04:56,809 Speaker 2: on the other side, we have to decide who is 94 00:04:56,820 --> 00:04:58,750 Speaker 2: going to back up or who's going to get on 95 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: the grass so that the other one can pass. So 96 00:05:01,890 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: sometimes that would not only inconvenient, there will also be 97 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:08,170 Speaker 2: a little bit of aggressions as well. Like who 98 00:05:08,178 --> 00:05:09,119 Speaker 1: gets to go first, right? 99 00:05:09,260 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 2: Who is around and then I always hear the sound 100 00:05:12,559 --> 00:05:13,410 Speaker 2: frequently 101 00:05:13,928 --> 00:05:17,089 Speaker 2: as if I'm the one that is blocking them, right? 102 00:05:17,350 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: Have you come into any like near collision, accidents, et cetera? 103 00:05:21,769 --> 00:05:26,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, only at night sometimes when they do have lights 104 00:05:26,089 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: that is too bright and they are going really fast. 105 00:05:28,290 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 2: So I really have to really slow down. 106 00:05:30,809 --> 00:05:32,269 Speaker 1: Ok. When you say really fast, 107 00:05:32,428 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: I would say it may be two times the person 108 00:05:35,010 --> 00:05:35,829 Speaker 2: walking speed 109 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,849 Speaker 1: and these devices are not meant to be going 110 00:05:37,859 --> 00:05:38,309 Speaker 1: that fast. 111 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,220 Speaker 2: Yeah, anything above 10 kilometers per hour is already very. 112 00:05:41,230 --> 00:05:41,859 Speaker 2: So if you hit 113 00:05:41,869 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: somebody, they will fly. Right. 114 00:05:43,369 --> 00:05:47,339 Speaker 2: Yes, I accidentally hit somebody once and that person got 115 00:05:47,350 --> 00:05:49,750 Speaker 2: a bruise and basically I was just doing a turn 116 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,769 Speaker 2: and she cut my path. I I was like horning 117 00:05:52,779 --> 00:05:56,829 Speaker 2: but sometimes pedestrians, they wear all these earphones and they 118 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,670 Speaker 2: cannot hear me coming and they just cut my path. 119 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:00,329 Speaker 1: So you've 120 00:06:00,339 --> 00:06:02,529 Speaker 1: actually raised a few things and maybe we touch on 121 00:06:02,540 --> 00:06:05,829 Speaker 1: the first one that bit about whether able bodied people 122 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,329 Speaker 1: should be allowed to use these P MS because right 123 00:06:09,339 --> 00:06:12,450 Speaker 1: now there is no regulation saying that you have to 124 00:06:12,459 --> 00:06:12,790 Speaker 1: be 125 00:06:13,109 --> 00:06:16,519 Speaker 1: disabled to use one of these, right? You are required 126 00:06:16,529 --> 00:06:20,019 Speaker 1: to register, right? No, no registration at the moment. So 127 00:06:20,029 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: by right, anyone can actually buy one of these and 128 00:06:23,170 --> 00:06:26,500 Speaker 1: use them as they see fit right now. Currently it 129 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:29,940 Speaker 1: seems that way. Yes, but there will be other regulations 130 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:32,070 Speaker 1: gonna come at the end of next year. That's right. 131 00:06:32,790 --> 00:06:37,100 Speaker 1: Buyers PM uses to be those that actually have mobility challenges. 132 00:06:37,390 --> 00:06:40,299 Speaker 1: And did that come about because of this? I guess 133 00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:43,738 Speaker 1: what we might call abuse of in a way. Yes, 134 00:06:43,928 --> 00:06:46,589 Speaker 1: the map actually did a review and through some focus 135 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,100 Speaker 1: groups with PM users, path users, seniors and all that. 136 00:06:50,109 --> 00:06:51,779 Speaker 1: So this is one of the recommendations 137 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,178 Speaker 1: that a me gave to the government. But just to 138 00:06:54,190 --> 00:06:56,859 Speaker 1: play devil's advocate for a bit because even though I 139 00:06:56,869 --> 00:07:00,140 Speaker 1: may not be disabled, I do have young Children, a 140 00:07:00,149 --> 00:07:01,789 Speaker 1: family and you know, three or four of us can 141 00:07:01,799 --> 00:07:03,790 Speaker 1: fit on this PM quite comfortably and it's great for 142 00:07:03,799 --> 00:07:06,529 Speaker 1: bringing them to kindergarten to school nearby, go and buy 143 00:07:06,540 --> 00:07:09,619 Speaker 1: my lunch from the coffee shop. If I'm using it responsibly, 144 00:07:09,899 --> 00:07:12,279 Speaker 1: why can't we allow it? The issue is that as 145 00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:14,369 Speaker 1: we age, there will be more and more people who 146 00:07:14,380 --> 00:07:17,570 Speaker 1: may require the use of P MS because they have 147 00:07:17,579 --> 00:07:20,959 Speaker 1: a genuine medical needs. In that way, if we allow 148 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:24,350 Speaker 1: everyone to find it convenient to actually be able to 149 00:07:24,359 --> 00:07:26,690 Speaker 1: use it, then there will be a lot of loading 150 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:30,570 Speaker 1: and overcrowding on our public pathways. And that will bring 151 00:07:30,579 --> 00:07:34,220 Speaker 1: about inconvenience and sometimes like what Michael alluded to even 152 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,100 Speaker 1: aggression at times. And that's really going to get very 153 00:07:37,109 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: unpleasant 154 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 1: and people like seniors and young Children may find it 155 00:07:40,690 --> 00:07:44,079 Speaker 1: very dangerous to be walking along such paths, some of 156 00:07:44,089 --> 00:07:46,529 Speaker 1: which are power sharing. You know, I was thinking about 157 00:07:46,540 --> 00:07:50,970 Speaker 1: this for this group of people, this device in my 158 00:07:50,980 --> 00:07:54,970 Speaker 1: mind anyway, saves money because one time they buy it 159 00:07:54,980 --> 00:07:59,140 Speaker 1: off Carousel or tiktok shop or whatever, maybe $1000 under 2000, 160 00:07:59,149 --> 00:08:02,630 Speaker 1: no petrol, no tax. It's such an easy way for 161 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,220 Speaker 1: them and also quite a lot of them 162 00:08:04,510 --> 00:08:08,609 Speaker 1: do deliveries as well. So it doubles up as a 163 00:08:08,619 --> 00:08:14,049 Speaker 1: means of affordable transport for a group of people. 164 00:08:14,690 --> 00:08:18,619 Speaker 1: Do you think this will go away? Even if we say, ok, 165 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:20,510 Speaker 1: you know what P MS can only be used for 166 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:24,390 Speaker 1: medical purposes and only six kilometers per hour, etcetera. Do 167 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:26,299 Speaker 1: you think this is something that we need to really 168 00:08:26,309 --> 00:08:26,989 Speaker 1: look into? 169 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:30,089 Speaker 1: I think this is quite an urgent issue actually because 170 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:33,309 Speaker 1: we have been hearing more feedback about the misuse and 171 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,510 Speaker 1: abuse of the P MS. So this is something that 172 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:42,909 Speaker 1: we need to tackle quite urgently. So there's a genuine need. So, 173 00:08:43,190 --> 00:08:45,799 Speaker 1: but it just means that instead of using P MS, 174 00:08:45,809 --> 00:08:48,150 Speaker 1: they will have to find other alternatives. 175 00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:51,449 Speaker 2: I see P MS as real P MS not is 176 00:08:51,460 --> 00:08:54,070 Speaker 2: because that disabled person is sitting on that 177 00:08:54,309 --> 00:08:57,728 Speaker 2: is that the chair is really made for disabled people. 178 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:01,690 Speaker 2: Chairs like mine is really narrowed and compact. 179 00:09:01,969 --> 00:09:04,619 Speaker 2: Disabled people need to go into shopping malls, need to 180 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 2: go into shops. We need to squeeze into narrow pathways 181 00:09:07,690 --> 00:09:10,789 Speaker 2: even MRT and we need to be able to turn 182 00:09:10,799 --> 00:09:14,239 Speaker 2: on a dime. What to say. It's those big chairs 183 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:17,219 Speaker 2: that super, super big that even I won't call them 184 00:09:17,229 --> 00:09:20,250 Speaker 2: C PM. They are P MD. I see a lot 185 00:09:20,260 --> 00:09:23,510 Speaker 2: of old people that sit on those micro chairs, the 186 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,229 Speaker 2: government is also going the right way in controlling the dimension. 187 00:09:27,570 --> 00:09:30,809 Speaker 2: And that is also a good thing. Now, if people 188 00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:35,039 Speaker 2: do want to use this mobility device, then perhaps another 189 00:09:35,049 --> 00:09:38,590 Speaker 2: way is that they look at PM DS that is 190 00:09:38,599 --> 00:09:39,919 Speaker 2: already regulated. 191 00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:40,729 Speaker 1: Right. 192 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:42,890 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's too small for them to carry the 193 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:45,780 Speaker 1: entire family. I won't be surprised if you start seeing 194 00:09:45,789 --> 00:09:49,549 Speaker 1: Ebis that have side car and wagon behind, you know, 195 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:50,579 Speaker 1: after a while 196 00:09:50,590 --> 00:09:52,469 Speaker 2: they do know how to work around. 197 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:55,630 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, maybe there might be other ways like 198 00:09:55,770 --> 00:09:56,090 Speaker 1: the market 199 00:09:56,284 --> 00:10:01,284 Speaker 1: lanes for those kinds of users, different paths, infrastructure or 200 00:10:01,294 --> 00:10:03,854 Speaker 1: is that really too much like you have to focus 201 00:10:03,864 --> 00:10:06,184 Speaker 1: right on who has the greatest need and how do 202 00:10:06,195 --> 00:10:09,835 Speaker 1: we do it in the safest way possible? And imagine 203 00:10:09,844 --> 00:10:12,044 Speaker 1: if we gave something created a path just for these 204 00:10:12,054 --> 00:10:14,494 Speaker 1: PMA S, then cyclists would be saying we've been wanting 205 00:10:14,505 --> 00:10:16,025 Speaker 1: a cycling lane for how long and 206 00:10:16,340 --> 00:10:18,299 Speaker 1: now these guys get it, what's going on, you 207 00:10:18,309 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: know, 208 00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: to say really right now to create a path for 209 00:10:21,770 --> 00:10:25,109 Speaker 2: P MA S, I'm a very active outdoor user. I 210 00:10:25,119 --> 00:10:28,849 Speaker 2: go out very often. The funny thing is if I 211 00:10:28,859 --> 00:10:31,699 Speaker 2: would say 10 P MA s go by, I'm the 212 00:10:31,710 --> 00:10:35,650 Speaker 2: only one that is really a disabled person, the ratio 213 00:10:35,659 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: of a disabled person that is out there. I don't know. 214 00:10:38,739 --> 00:10:43,159 Speaker 2: I think we would need a dedicated path for ourselves. Yeah. 215 00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:47,260 Speaker 2: So but even as the population gray and get older, 216 00:10:47,429 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: these older people, they do just go from point to 217 00:10:50,530 --> 00:10:54,159 Speaker 2: point and not, like, actively, like me running all over 218 00:10:54,169 --> 00:10:54,500 Speaker 2: the 219 00:10:54,510 --> 00:10:55,039 Speaker 2: island. 220 00:10:55,090 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: Would it, would it help to have only certain areas 221 00:10:57,969 --> 00:11:01,039 Speaker 1: or designated lanes? Again, it's like the park connected 222 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:03,169 Speaker 1: because most of the time you're going from your block 223 00:11:03,179 --> 00:11:06,340 Speaker 1: to the supermarket to the coffee shop, you generally are 224 00:11:06,349 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: not getting on the M RT to travel to another area, right? 225 00:11:10,049 --> 00:11:12,270 Speaker 1: There could be a lane dedicated to just allowing the 226 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,689 Speaker 1: P MS. But then again, it's back to the point 227 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:18,770 Speaker 1: of should everyone and anyone be able to access it? Yeah, 228 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:21,229 Speaker 1: this is a is a difficult issue to solve in 229 00:11:21,239 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: the interim. There are a couple of problems, right. 230 00:11:23,739 --> 00:11:27,650 Speaker 1: The first one is fire CDF has reported in 2023 231 00:11:27,659 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: there were more fires involving assisted mobility devices. This is 232 00:11:31,289 --> 00:11:34,479 Speaker 1: quite dangerous, especially when you live in corridors and they 233 00:11:34,489 --> 00:11:36,619 Speaker 1: go into lifts and things like that. Is that something 234 00:11:36,630 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: you guys worry about as well? Yes, we worry about 235 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: these people actually trying to modify their devices and also 236 00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:48,820 Speaker 1: use things like incompatible charges or put on additional kind 237 00:11:48,830 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 1: of batteries 238 00:11:49,719 --> 00:11:52,979 Speaker 1: that may be incompatible and and that may actually cause 239 00:11:52,989 --> 00:11:55,849 Speaker 1: fire hazards. The thing is it's so easy to get it. 240 00:11:55,989 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: So EV cars are getting more popular now in Singapore, 241 00:11:58,650 --> 00:12:00,728 Speaker 1: you know, you can go on to any online platform, 242 00:12:00,739 --> 00:12:05,179 Speaker 1: Shopee Lazada and buy a car charger for like 200 bucks. 243 00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:07,690 Speaker 1: The kind that you literally plug into your home wall 244 00:12:07,809 --> 00:12:09,919 Speaker 1: and plug into your car. It is not safe, it 245 00:12:09,929 --> 00:12:13,039 Speaker 1: is not regulated. And I've experimented with one before it 246 00:12:13,049 --> 00:12:15,619 Speaker 1: gets really hot. The point is that because the original 247 00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:18,549 Speaker 1: one that you have to install would be about $3000. 248 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 1: You know, so people think 200 bucks, 3000 and, you know, 249 00:12:21,729 --> 00:12:23,859 Speaker 1: we're all cheap skates that way. Why are you looking 250 00:12:23,869 --> 00:12:27,900 Speaker 1: for like a car battery? I mean, because I've had 251 00:12:27,909 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: to charge it. Yeah, so the same thing with all 252 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: these PMD, the batteries are out there, the non original 253 00:12:35,010 --> 00:12:37,969 Speaker 1: versions are half the price. So it comes back to 254 00:12:37,979 --> 00:12:40,409 Speaker 1: the point, right? Maybe Florence you can weigh in you. 255 00:12:40,419 --> 00:12:41,598 Speaker 1: How do you regulate 256 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,900 Speaker 1: this? People are just gonna buy all these cheap knockoffs. Anyway, 257 00:12:44,909 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: these places are decentralized for the PM DS, the E 258 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:51,919 Speaker 1: scooters as well as the E bikes. They actually have 259 00:12:51,929 --> 00:12:57,780 Speaker 1: the standards, the 2272, as well as the en 15194 260 00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:02,349 Speaker 1: standards to actually comply with. So the advice is always 261 00:13:02,359 --> 00:13:05,419 Speaker 1: for the users to go back to the original manufacturers 262 00:13:05,429 --> 00:13:07,579 Speaker 1: or the shop where they buy from, to actually 263 00:13:07,940 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: get them to provide the batteries which are like original. 264 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:12,950 Speaker 1: How often do you get this service? 265 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:17,368 Speaker 2: I just changed my battery recently. Like that happens about 266 00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:19,988 Speaker 2: a year and six months. I have to change it, 267 00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: but it's 268 00:13:20,530 --> 00:13:20,718 Speaker 1: two 269 00:13:20,729 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: 1005 100 270 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:23,070 Speaker 1: for the battery 271 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: just for the battery and searching on the internet. I 272 00:13:26,010 --> 00:13:27,939 Speaker 2: can find $600. So 273 00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:29,949 Speaker 1: that's why you have this problem. Right. 274 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,590 Speaker 2: This is an expensive chair and 275 00:13:32,702 --> 00:13:36,252 Speaker 2: the $600 to put in the expensive chance is not 276 00:13:36,261 --> 00:13:38,831 Speaker 2: worth it. And I'm sitting on it, I can't run away, 277 00:13:38,841 --> 00:13:39,361 Speaker 2: like normal 278 00:13:39,841 --> 00:13:41,631 Speaker 1: catches fire while you're sitting on it. 279 00:13:41,642 --> 00:13:41,921 Speaker 1: Right. 280 00:13:42,442 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: I can't stand on a run. 281 00:13:45,142 --> 00:13:47,312 Speaker 1: So, do you think regulation will work? Do you think 282 00:13:47,322 --> 00:13:49,851 Speaker 1: it's worked for PMD S? Would you say it has 283 00:13:49,861 --> 00:13:52,210 Speaker 1: because we regulated it? And now they are definitely less 284 00:13:54,002 --> 00:13:56,790 Speaker 1: fires too. I mean, there are less devices then there 285 00:13:56,802 --> 00:13:57,351 Speaker 1: will be less fire. 286 00:13:57,463 --> 00:14:00,203 Speaker 1: You see less of them right on the road, for sure, 287 00:14:00,213 --> 00:14:02,244 Speaker 1: for sure. You see a lot less. So you think 288 00:14:02,254 --> 00:14:05,874 Speaker 1: regulation will work or there will always be people who 289 00:14:05,883 --> 00:14:08,554 Speaker 1: stick a disability sticker and try to get away 290 00:14:08,564 --> 00:14:08,963 Speaker 1: with it. 291 00:14:09,093 --> 00:14:11,754 Speaker 2: There still will be. And when talking about P MD, 292 00:14:11,763 --> 00:14:15,193 Speaker 2: I still see in woodlands, those P MD, they are 293 00:14:15,203 --> 00:14:18,703 Speaker 2: not bicycle, power chair, it's like a bicycle, but it's 294 00:14:18,713 --> 00:14:22,114 Speaker 2: all fully powered. Yeah. So sometimes this officer may 295 00:14:22,226 --> 00:14:24,645 Speaker 2: stand there and try to catch, but sometimes they are 296 00:14:24,656 --> 00:14:27,625 Speaker 2: too fast to catch anyway. So there will always be 297 00:14:27,635 --> 00:14:32,205 Speaker 2: people to really weed it out totally is really very hard, 298 00:14:32,635 --> 00:14:35,815 Speaker 2: but really making it so much less would actually be 299 00:14:35,825 --> 00:14:40,005 Speaker 2: a really good thing already. Gradually over time, there may 300 00:14:40,015 --> 00:14:44,245 Speaker 2: be no more. It's not immediate results, but gradually over time. 301 00:14:44,255 --> 00:14:46,885 Speaker 1: Essentially, if you say every time before someone 302 00:14:47,219 --> 00:14:49,419 Speaker 1: wants to buy one of these devices, they have to 303 00:14:49,429 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: show a letter which says I need this kind of 304 00:14:52,409 --> 00:14:56,159 Speaker 1: mobility device that will naturally cut down the numbers 305 00:14:56,169 --> 00:14:59,969 Speaker 2: for disabled people like us, we all are SG and 306 00:14:59,979 --> 00:15:03,929 Speaker 2: able registered and we all have those SG enabled card 307 00:15:04,109 --> 00:15:08,359 Speaker 2: instead of having a double regime to go and register again. 308 00:15:08,530 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: Having that SG enabled card, you make it so much 309 00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:14,030 Speaker 2: easier if you ask me to go, I got this 310 00:15:14,039 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: SG enabled card. You want me to go and register 311 00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:17,020 Speaker 2: my chair again. 312 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,940 Speaker 2: It's like the double work. Why do I have to 313 00:15:19,950 --> 00:15:21,190 Speaker 2: prove myself twice? 314 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: Ok. So for the disabled folks, I can understand that 315 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:27,419 Speaker 1: but I'm thinking for elderly, right, let's say, you know, 316 00:15:27,429 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: my mom, her leg is not doing too good. She's arthritis, 317 00:15:30,849 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: et cetera. For me to register her for using a 318 00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:38,679 Speaker 1: device might be a bit onerous, right? In your experience, 319 00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:41,270 Speaker 1: will there be occasions where people like that could use 320 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,530 Speaker 1: the support of a device like A PM? 321 00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:47,539 Speaker 1: But don't need a disability kind of sticker disability card 322 00:15:47,549 --> 00:15:50,650 Speaker 1: is one of the recommendations that the map has given 323 00:15:50,659 --> 00:15:55,270 Speaker 1: to the government to recognize some kind of existing disability. However, 324 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,799 Speaker 1: for those that are like you said, seniors, so some 325 00:15:57,809 --> 00:16:00,049 Speaker 1: of them may have actually most of them will have 326 00:16:00,059 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: undergone some kind of assessment. Yeah, so they would have 327 00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: been seeing some doctors. So the family doctor gives a 328 00:16:06,969 --> 00:16:07,429 Speaker 1: note 329 00:16:08,109 --> 00:16:11,739 Speaker 1: say that ok, you can write this like for your 330 00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:13,659 Speaker 1: driving license after a certain age, you got to go 331 00:16:13,669 --> 00:16:15,260 Speaker 1: for your eyesight test and the doctor is going to 332 00:16:15,270 --> 00:16:17,890 Speaker 1: say this guy still. So that's possible. Yes, possible. And 333 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,159 Speaker 1: some of them will have been assessed by the occupational 334 00:16:20,169 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: therapist as well before assessing some of these subsidy scheme 335 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:27,169 Speaker 1: for it sounds. But actually when I think about it, 336 00:16:27,179 --> 00:16:29,669 Speaker 1: it's also good. It means that there's someone checking on 337 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:32,390 Speaker 1: you to make sure that maybe you think I 338 00:16:32,484 --> 00:16:34,864 Speaker 1: only just need a crutch, but actually you may need 339 00:16:34,875 --> 00:16:37,325 Speaker 1: more and there could be something more serious. So all 340 00:16:37,335 --> 00:16:41,145 Speaker 1: the other way around like you are perfectly capable of walking, 341 00:16:41,155 --> 00:16:44,224 Speaker 1: you just don't want to walk and to make it 342 00:16:44,234 --> 00:16:46,385 Speaker 1: difficult for you to get a PM is a good 343 00:16:46,395 --> 00:16:49,695 Speaker 1: thing because you should be walking active 344 00:16:49,755 --> 00:16:49,895 Speaker 1: as you. 345 00:16:50,294 --> 00:16:55,335 Speaker 2: Finally, my parents have two knee operation already. She walks 346 00:16:55,344 --> 00:16:57,184 Speaker 2: a long way and she, her knee will hurt. 347 00:16:57,710 --> 00:17:00,750 Speaker 2: But no matter how I pee, she wouldn't even use 348 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,780 Speaker 2: a cane or sit on a P MA because that's 349 00:17:04,790 --> 00:17:08,079 Speaker 2: pride in her. They say I'm not that old. I 350 00:17:08,089 --> 00:17:10,750 Speaker 2: find it funny is that people like us that we 351 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,719 Speaker 2: should walk, we can't, but you can walk, you don't 352 00:17:13,729 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: want to. I was like, you know, I mean, can 353 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,750 Speaker 2: you give me, give me, I give you my chair. 354 00:17:21,938 --> 00:17:23,769 Speaker 1: Yeah. But in this case, I guess what we're concerned 355 00:17:23,779 --> 00:17:25,249 Speaker 1: about is more that, you know, the P MA S 356 00:17:25,259 --> 00:17:28,818 Speaker 1: are being used by a group and perhaps used for 357 00:17:28,828 --> 00:17:31,529 Speaker 1: some of the wrong purposes. I mean, it is convenient 358 00:17:31,538 --> 00:17:33,038 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, those who really 359 00:17:33,048 --> 00:17:35,458 Speaker 1: need it will then have some difficulty 360 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,869 Speaker 1: because now there might be so many on our roads. 361 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: But I see two things that I understand from their 362 00:17:41,689 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 2: point of view, why they want to use it. Number 363 00:17:44,890 --> 00:17:48,939 Speaker 2: one is that it's really less energy intensive, you can 364 00:17:48,949 --> 00:17:52,949 Speaker 2: go faster and not using your own energy. And number 365 00:17:52,959 --> 00:17:56,050 Speaker 2: two is that it start to generate revenue for you 366 00:17:56,060 --> 00:17:59,979 Speaker 2: using it instead of it's only a pure liability or 367 00:17:59,989 --> 00:18:02,540 Speaker 2: it's a cost, it generate money for you, 368 00:18:02,686 --> 00:18:06,455 Speaker 2: right? That also as a motivation, I can understand why 369 00:18:06,465 --> 00:18:09,296 Speaker 2: they want to use that, but perhaps they can still 370 00:18:09,306 --> 00:18:12,536 Speaker 2: earn money but maybe in a better device, more 371 00:18:12,546 --> 00:18:17,494 Speaker 1: regulated, maybe less. I don't know. Actually the alternative is 372 00:18:17,505 --> 00:18:19,536 Speaker 1: if you want to make deliveries and make money from 373 00:18:19,546 --> 00:18:21,406 Speaker 1: it too, then just get an E bike. If you 374 00:18:21,416 --> 00:18:23,014 Speaker 1: don't need to bring your whole family with you, the 375 00:18:23,026 --> 00:18:25,336 Speaker 1: only advantage of having A P is that it can 376 00:18:25,345 --> 00:18:27,805 Speaker 1: carry more people, right? If you think about it, if 377 00:18:27,816 --> 00:18:29,485 Speaker 1: I have to send my kid to kindergarten 378 00:18:29,592 --> 00:18:32,991 Speaker 1: in the morning, it's much easier for me to do 379 00:18:33,001 --> 00:18:35,401 Speaker 1: it on my, on a bicycle too. You can carry 380 00:18:35,411 --> 00:18:38,491 Speaker 1: one person on a bike so much effort to cycle. 381 00:18:40,261 --> 00:18:42,611 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, have you ever tried an E bike? 382 00:18:42,631 --> 00:18:47,291 Speaker 1: There's not much, you turn a few pedals and try 383 00:18:47,302 --> 00:18:49,371 Speaker 1: it like, yeah, you don't need a lot of it. 384 00:18:49,381 --> 00:18:51,232 Speaker 1: But you know what I mean? Once you are used 385 00:18:51,241 --> 00:18:54,531 Speaker 1: to driving you like, man, I don want to take 386 00:18:54,541 --> 00:18:57,291 Speaker 1: the Mr T. Yes, 387 00:18:57,959 --> 00:19:00,229 Speaker 1: I went on the MT just a few days ago 388 00:19:00,239 --> 00:19:02,599 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, this is nice welcome to 389 00:19:02,609 --> 00:19:06,089 Speaker 1: the general public because it was, I realized it's cheaper 390 00:19:06,099 --> 00:19:08,429 Speaker 1: than driving for that stretch. It was really convenient to 391 00:19:08,439 --> 00:19:12,198 Speaker 1: take a train to. Yeah, it's fabulous. It's easy. Now, 392 00:19:12,209 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 1: let's wrap up any, any, any last points you want 393 00:19:15,250 --> 00:19:17,750 Speaker 1: to say Florence? Well, I just want to 394 00:19:17,859 --> 00:19:20,718 Speaker 1: say that for device users, please make sure that you 395 00:19:20,729 --> 00:19:25,869 Speaker 1: charge safely. Yeah, make sure that you check the batteries regularly. 396 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,930 Speaker 1: They are not bloated, corroded or you know, having some 397 00:19:28,939 --> 00:19:33,130 Speaker 1: powdery residue on them only go back to the manufacturers 398 00:19:33,140 --> 00:19:35,689 Speaker 1: or the shops that sell you the device to have 399 00:19:35,699 --> 00:19:37,780 Speaker 1: the parts replaced. Yeah, 400 00:19:38,209 --> 00:19:40,369 Speaker 1: that's really important because you think you're saving a few bucks. 401 00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:42,339 Speaker 1: But the greater scheme of things, you actually will probably 402 00:19:42,349 --> 00:19:44,469 Speaker 1: end up paying a lot more for it in other ways. 403 00:19:44,839 --> 00:19:46,020 Speaker 1: That's right, Michael. 404 00:19:46,199 --> 00:19:48,739 Speaker 2: I would like to say that everybody I wrote users. Yeah, 405 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,790 Speaker 2: we are all rushed for time. But we all can 406 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,709 Speaker 2: still be nice and courteous courtesy cannot be regulated as 407 00:19:56,719 --> 00:19:59,079 Speaker 2: long as we are all nice, everything can work out. 408 00:19:59,089 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 2: I can back off, you can back off or whatever. 409 00:20:02,130 --> 00:20:05,260 Speaker 2: It's just, there's no need for any nice things. 410 00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:06,188 Speaker 1: What irritates me, 411 00:20:06,265 --> 00:20:08,125 Speaker 1: people cycling, you can ring your bell. You know, it's 412 00:20:08,135 --> 00:20:14,025 Speaker 1: like d versus the people who keep pressing the button 413 00:20:14,035 --> 00:20:15,385 Speaker 1: to cross the street. 414 00:20:15,395 --> 00:20:19,214 Speaker 2: Right? You hear all those, like booming, pumping music coming 415 00:20:19,435 --> 00:20:21,135 Speaker 2: out and then you know, 416 00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:21,823 Speaker 1: something is coming 417 00:20:22,594 --> 00:20:26,015 Speaker 1: here. Yeah. Ok. So will you ever ride A P? 418 00:20:26,375 --> 00:20:28,714 Speaker 1: And who knows? I mean, we are an aging country. 419 00:20:28,724 --> 00:20:31,454 Speaker 1: I'm getting old too. You know, my thing is when 420 00:20:31,464 --> 00:20:33,514 Speaker 1: I was talking to my team about this as well 421 00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:34,244 Speaker 1: and I think that 422 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: there will always be a demand for a certain group 423 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:40,500 Speaker 1: of people because cost is a really big factor for them. 424 00:20:40,869 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: I can understand what's motivating them to circumvent all the 425 00:20:45,050 --> 00:20:47,829 Speaker 1: rules to do it. I do hope that we will 426 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:51,500 Speaker 1: come to a scenario where we don't exclude anybody, whoever 427 00:20:51,510 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: needs this kind of mobility device is able to use 428 00:20:55,650 --> 00:21:02,050 Speaker 1: them together with cars, bicycles, motorcycles, etcetera. So that's my view. Ok. Well, 429 00:21:02,069 --> 00:21:04,149 Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming in and for sharing with 430 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,089 Speaker 1: us your thoughts on this. If you have any others 431 00:21:06,099 --> 00:21:07,810 Speaker 1: do drop us a note. We're always happy to hear 432 00:21:07,819 --> 00:21:08,239 Speaker 1: from you. 433 00:21:08,489 --> 00:21:11,910 Speaker 1: A shout out to the team behind the Deep Dive podcast. 434 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,510 Speaker 1: It's Jaini Johari Tiffany, Ang, Joan Chan Sen and Tou 435 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,829 Speaker 1: Yan Yun sound mixing is by Ken Delbridge. See you 436 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:20,390 Speaker 1: real soon. Bye bye.