WEBVTT - Best of: Climate change is the new enemy for militaries 0:00:00.129 --> 0:00:03.859 Happy December and welcome back to the Climate Conversations. I'm 0:00:03.869 --> 0:00:07.309 your host, Julie Yu. We are on a season break now, 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.640 but during this time, we want to take you back 0:00:09.648 --> 0:00:12.640 to some of our best conversations on this show. In 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.959 this episode, I chat with Richard Nui, a retired three 0:00:16.969 --> 0:00:20.530 star British general who tells us why climate change is 0:00:20.540 --> 0:00:23.309 the military's new enemy. His can 0:00:23.424 --> 0:00:28.405 accounts of soldiers battling extreme heat and suffering from dehydration 0:00:28.415 --> 0:00:32.375 shed light on the immediate consequences of our changing climate 0:00:32.494 --> 0:00:35.845 and he shares how the military is transitioning to be 0:00:35.854 --> 0:00:40.653 more sustainable. That's equally fascinating. Stay tuned next week as 0:00:40.665 --> 0:00:43.415 we bring you the best stories from this year's global 0:00:43.424 --> 0:00:48.115 climate summit. But for now, enjoy this episode. You're listening 0:00:48.125 --> 0:00:49.525 to AC N A podcast 0:00:52.369 --> 0:00:56.970 in the scorching heat of July 2003, British army officer, 0:00:56.979 --> 0:01:02.110 Richard Nui found himself in an unlikely battleground. A sweltering 0:01:02.119 --> 0:01:05.879 brick building that had once been Saddam Hussein's sons hideout. 0:01:06.330 --> 0:01:10.980 The harsh conditions were more than just uncomfortable. They revealed 0:01:10.989 --> 0:01:15.809 a startling truth, extreme weather as Nuj was learning could 0:01:15.819 --> 0:01:19.410 pose as much danger to soldiers as any enemy. 0:01:20.269 --> 0:01:23.120 I'm Julie Yu. And in the second episode of our 0:01:23.129 --> 0:01:27.330 surviving the sizzle series. We talked to someone who's navigated 0:01:27.339 --> 0:01:29.730 some of the world's hottest war zones. 0:01:30.419 --> 0:01:35.599 Lieutenant General Nui's extensive experience in conflict areas like Iraq, 0:01:35.610 --> 0:01:41.000 Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Afghanistan provides firsthand insight into the 0:01:41.010 --> 0:01:44.629 impact of rising temperatures on military operations. 0:01:45.269 --> 0:01:49.809 He shares his solutions for overcoming these challenges and discusses 0:01:49.819 --> 0:01:52.290 the military's role in climate change. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.120 General Nucci. Welcome to the climate conversations. It's a 0:01:56.129 --> 0:01:57.150 pleasure to be with you. 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:02.139 In the intro, I briefly mentioned your dramatic experience commanding 0:02:02.150 --> 0:02:06.080 British troops in the sweltering heat of Iraq in 2003. 0:02:06.089 --> 0:02:09.679 Could you reflect on your experience then? Just how challenging 0:02:09.690 --> 0:02:11.179 was it and what was going through your 0:02:11.190 --> 0:02:14.258 mind? So I was in Iraq immediately after the war 0:02:14.270 --> 0:02:17.279 had finished and was into the peacekeeping operation. 0:02:17.538 --> 0:02:21.179 So we were living in an environment where we were 0:02:21.190 --> 0:02:23.899 having to live in tents or in whatever buildings we 0:02:23.910 --> 0:02:26.589 could find. And in fact, most of the troops were 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.570 in a huge hangar and we had no way of 0:02:29.580 --> 0:02:31.529 getting out of the heat. It was more and more 0:02:31.538 --> 0:02:33.029 intense as the summer went on. 0:02:33.288 --> 0:02:37.178 And that was a problem because we found people dehydrating 0:02:37.190 --> 0:02:39.669 very fast. We had no way of cooling water. We 0:02:39.679 --> 0:02:43.500 used water bottles in socks that we would wet, say 0:02:43.508 --> 0:02:46.410 the water from the sock would cool the water inside 0:02:46.419 --> 0:02:48.979 in the bottle. We learned that from stories of what 0:02:48.990 --> 0:02:51.649 had happened in the western desert in the Second World War. 0:02:51.758 --> 0:02:53.100 So we were using very 0:02:53.294 --> 0:02:57.425 rude ways of staying cold. We did have showers which 0:02:57.434 --> 0:03:01.714 had water open to the elements. So you had about 0:03:01.725 --> 0:03:04.214 half an hour between the time when the water was 0:03:04.225 --> 0:03:07.013 cold and the water was too hot to use when 0:03:07.024 --> 0:03:09.633 it was a reasonable temperature. So everybody showered in that 0:03:09.645 --> 0:03:11.595 sort of half an hour. Otherwise, the water was just 0:03:11.604 --> 0:03:14.005 too hot because it was exposed to the sun. And 0:03:14.014 --> 0:03:15.315 for two weeks of the year, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.820 the Iraqis translated, it's called the cooker. Most of the 0:03:18.830 --> 0:03:21.729 wind comes from northern Iraq and it comes, it's very, 0:03:21.740 --> 0:03:24.660 very dry heat as it gets dried out across the desert. 0:03:24.758 --> 0:03:27.380 For two weeks of the year in the cooker, the 0:03:27.389 --> 0:03:31.220 wind switches and it comes across the Gulf and is very, 0:03:31.229 --> 0:03:34.500 very humid. So you've got intense humidity as well as very, 0:03:34.508 --> 0:03:35.899 very hot temperatures. I think it 0:03:36.132 --> 0:03:39.852 at 55 degrees, 54 degrees, something like that. And there 0:03:39.863 --> 0:03:43.643 you were constantly wet from sweat and even after you 0:03:43.652 --> 0:03:45.613 had a shower and you dried yourself, you were immediately 0:03:45.623 --> 0:03:48.533 completely covered in sweat again. So it was an interesting experience. 0:03:48.542 --> 0:03:49.082 It just 0:03:49.093 --> 0:03:52.152 shows how demanding the extreme the situation can be. And 0:03:52.162 --> 0:03:55.233 for many of us who aren't familiar about what goes 0:03:55.242 --> 0:03:56.302 on in the ground 0:03:56.705 --> 0:04:02.395 operations, just how badly can heat affect a soldier's physical 0:04:02.406 --> 0:04:05.725 and also mental health and ultimately operational effectiveness 0:04:05.735 --> 0:04:10.796 without proper acclimatization. And without proper equipment, heat can take 0:04:10.805 --> 0:04:13.645 a very big toll. We had a number of soldiers 0:04:13.656 --> 0:04:15.835 put into hospital. I had a battle group of just 0:04:15.845 --> 0:04:16.686 over 1000 0:04:16.988 --> 0:04:20.950 soldiers just south of Basra. We used 100 and 80 0:04:20.959 --> 0:04:24.519 saline drips because people had dehydrated so much, we had 0:04:24.529 --> 0:04:26.779 to send two people back to the UK with heat stroke. 0:04:26.790 --> 0:04:29.769 They were considered in too much danger if they stayed 0:04:29.779 --> 0:04:33.410 in Iraq. So there's a purely physical side which is 0:04:33.420 --> 0:04:36.269 people dehydrating and therefore less able to do their jobs, 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:38.769 either because they're in hospital or because they've been sent home. 0:04:39.029 --> 0:04:41.760 There's also a psychological side in that. I mean, one 0:04:41.769 --> 0:04:44.320 of my soldiers he dehydrated despite the fact that he 0:04:44.329 --> 0:04:48.299 had drunk 16 bottles of water in one day. And actually, 0:04:48.309 --> 0:04:50.929 what he did is he washed the salts out of 0:04:50.940 --> 0:04:51.600 his system 0:04:51.820 --> 0:04:54.799 out of his body. So we were taking extra salts, 0:04:54.809 --> 0:04:57.709 we brought in bananas because they're very good for potassium. 0:04:57.850 --> 0:05:00.459 And we're trying to find ways when there was no 0:05:00.470 --> 0:05:01.920 way of getting out of the heat trying to find 0:05:01.928 --> 0:05:04.808 ways of keeping people as cool as possible. And of course, 0:05:04.820 --> 0:05:06.950 when you add body armor and helmets and carrying a 0:05:06.959 --> 0:05:09.380 rifle all the time, it makes it a bit more difficult. 0:05:09.390 --> 0:05:10.559 But the psychological side 0:05:10.654 --> 0:05:12.394 it is. And I've seen this on a number of 0:05:12.404 --> 0:05:16.053 reports that soldiers became quite demotivated. So it became an 0:05:16.065 --> 0:05:20.034 additional leadership challenge to persuade people to go out in 0:05:20.045 --> 0:05:24.113 the heat and to operate in the heat. There's an 0:05:24.125 --> 0:05:26.924 English phrase. It's part of a joke which is mad dogs. 0:05:26.934 --> 0:05:29.464 And Englishmen are the only people out in the midday sun. 0:05:29.755 --> 0:05:32.584 And when we were patrolling in the middle of the 0:05:32.595 --> 0:05:35.595 city of Azerbaijan, which at the time had about a 0:05:35.605 --> 0:05:37.885 million people. Now, as I understand has about 2 million 0:05:37.894 --> 0:05:38.515 people in it. 0:05:38.769 --> 0:05:40.829 But we were literally the only people out there apart 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.539 from mad dogs. So it was true. It isn't just 0:05:43.549 --> 0:05:45.760 a joke. And that's because the heat is too intense. 0:05:45.769 --> 0:05:48.589 I mean, these experiences you were talking about, it happens 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:53.109 more than 1020 years ago, they were already unbearable back then. 0:05:53.119 --> 0:05:56.459 So how are things now? Has it gotten noticeably hotter 0:05:56.470 --> 0:05:57.928 and more extreme compared to previous 0:05:57.940 --> 0:06:00.480 years? So I was reading about safes, which was a 0:06:00.488 --> 0:06:03.750 big exercise that the British Army did in 2019. So 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.828 only four years ago in Amman where we had five 0:06:06.940 --> 0:06:10.789 1000 troops on an exercise there and the temperature peaked 0:06:10.799 --> 0:06:16.118 at 54 degrees consistently. This is very, very hot temperatures 0:06:16.130 --> 0:06:19.000 indeed to be able to operate. And there we were 0:06:19.010 --> 0:06:23.049 operating the tanks and armored vehicles get incredibly hot and 0:06:23.059 --> 0:06:26.789 really stuffy inside and that can be very, very damaging 0:06:26.799 --> 0:06:29.959 if you don't take care. But interestingly, the number of 0:06:29.970 --> 0:06:33.359 heat casualties they had was significantly lower than they expected. 0:06:33.369 --> 0:06:35.039 And that's because we've learned 0:06:35.369 --> 0:06:40.909 about acclimatization. We've learned about keeping water cold and have 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.920 now got the equipment to operate in those sorts of 0:06:44.928 --> 0:06:47.480 environments to a much greater extent than we had in 0:06:47.488 --> 0:06:50.260 2003 in Iraq. So in a sense that this sounds 0:06:50.269 --> 0:06:52.779 a really stupid thing to say, but the heat caught 0:06:52.790 --> 0:06:56.479 us slightly by surprise in Iraq, the intensity of the heat, 0:06:56.589 --> 0:07:00.279 but also our unpreparedness for it because we hadn't fought 0:07:00.290 --> 0:07:02.399 in those conditions for a very, very long time. 0:07:02.898 --> 0:07:05.358 Now that we've had a lot of experience of fighting 0:07:05.368 --> 0:07:08.858 in those conditions. We understand the importance of keeping the 0:07:08.868 --> 0:07:12.197 core temperature of the body cold and that's either through 0:07:12.338 --> 0:07:17.958 air conditioned tents or through keeping water cold as opposed to. 0:07:18.058 --> 0:07:21.037 And I have a personal loathing now of warm water. 0:07:21.127 --> 0:07:23.678 I can't drink warm water because that's what I did 0:07:23.687 --> 0:07:27.157 for sort of months on end in Iraq. But we 0:07:27.167 --> 0:07:29.778 did eventually towards the end of our time, get air 0:07:29.798 --> 0:07:30.447 conditioned tents 0:07:30.536 --> 0:07:33.216 in Iraq. So it came in quite fast in real terms. 0:07:33.226 --> 0:07:37.295 But my battle group basically went to sleep for 24 hours. 0:07:37.476 --> 0:07:40.776 It's the first time they had been able to sleep 0:07:40.786 --> 0:07:44.515 properly in cool conditions in the four or five months 0:07:44.526 --> 0:07:46.596 that we'd been there. And that again, it shows how 0:07:46.605 --> 0:07:49.656 tired we were just from coping with the heat. But 0:07:49.665 --> 0:07:52.596 I think the heat is going to get worse. But 0:07:52.605 --> 0:07:55.835 now that people understand this more, the chances are that 0:07:55.846 --> 0:07:57.895 we will be able to cope with it better because 0:07:57.906 --> 0:07:58.075 we 0:07:58.174 --> 0:07:59.093 more experience of it. 0:07:59.104 --> 0:08:03.963 You briefly mentioned military installation and equipment also being exposed 0:08:03.973 --> 0:08:06.954 to the heat. Any challenges there? I've read a very 0:08:06.963 --> 0:08:11.053 interesting article where you talked about rising sea temperature causing 0:08:11.063 --> 0:08:12.954 warship engines to cut out 0:08:13.084 --> 0:08:18.104 all large engines and ships are cooled by the seawater 0:08:18.114 --> 0:08:20.503 around them. And that's the cooling mechanism. You take the 0:08:20.514 --> 0:08:22.484 water from the sea, you put it around the engine 0:08:22.493 --> 0:08:24.303 and then spit it out at the back and it 0:08:24.313 --> 0:08:25.713 is constant cold water 0:08:25.941 --> 0:08:29.962 cools the engine. The scientists who I was speaking to 0:08:29.971 --> 0:08:32.882 a couple of years ago were predicting that surface sea 0:08:32.892 --> 0:08:36.802 temperatures by about 2030 in the Gulf would be anywhere 0:08:36.812 --> 0:08:40.002 between 38 and 40 degrees. Occasionally hitting 40 degrees, 40 0:08:40.011 --> 0:08:42.210 degrees is hotter than a bath that is not going 0:08:42.221 --> 0:08:45.442 to cool the engine. And what we found was that 0:08:45.452 --> 0:08:49.111 actually even now with water temperatures, not at that level, 0:08:49.122 --> 0:08:51.992 but higher than we would expect, it limits the ability 0:08:52.002 --> 0:08:53.351 of the engine on ship. 0:08:54.020 --> 0:08:57.468 So that's one example. The other example is helicopters. It 0:08:57.479 --> 0:09:00.710 is well known that the hotter it is the more 0:09:00.719 --> 0:09:03.840 difficult it is for helicopters to take load and take 0:09:03.849 --> 0:09:06.549 off with load because the air is thinner. And so 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.669 this combination of very hot air in environments will make 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.030 our helicopters and our aircraft take much longer to get 0:09:14.039 --> 0:09:15.968 up into the air. If it's aircraft, we need longer 0:09:15.979 --> 0:09:18.950 runways in some respects. But also it is going to 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.989 mean that we can take less load per helicopter. 0:09:21.088 --> 0:09:24.908 Those sorts of things are significant for militaries because our logistic, 0:09:24.918 --> 0:09:28.607 if you like rules of thumb, the measures we operate 0:09:28.617 --> 0:09:31.107 by are changing as a result of the climate. And 0:09:31.117 --> 0:09:34.918 general Aston military anticipates more climate related crises. We're not 0:09:34.927 --> 0:09:39.388 just talking about heat, we're talking about cold storms, typhoons. 0:09:39.398 --> 0:09:41.557 I mean, what kind of plans and strategies are in 0:09:41.567 --> 0:09:45.107 place to protect soldiers during training and operations? 0:09:45.117 --> 0:09:47.546 It's a very good point that I think every academic 0:09:47.557 --> 0:09:48.637 piece of research 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:51.625 that I have seen suggests that there are going to 0:09:51.635 --> 0:09:55.815 be more environmental disasters. We are seeing this now across 0:09:55.825 --> 0:09:59.676 the world. The amount of wildfires in Canada has, for 0:09:59.684 --> 0:10:02.786 example has absolutely rocketed. So there's going to be more 0:10:02.796 --> 0:10:05.346 requirement for troops and there is a list of some 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:09.426 15 to 20 countries this year whose troops have already 0:10:09.434 --> 0:10:13.535 been used to support humanitarian assistance and disaster relief at 0:10:14.046 --> 0:10:16.085 the expense, of course of their job 0:10:16.364 --> 0:10:19.064 to do, which is to defend their nations. So you've 0:10:19.073 --> 0:10:22.544 got a distraction from troops so that can lead to 0:10:22.554 --> 0:10:25.103 two things. One is you can build that into a 0:10:25.114 --> 0:10:29.532 force which is specifically designed around humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. 0:10:29.544 --> 0:10:32.114 That's an idea that is gaining favor in a number 0:10:32.124 --> 0:10:34.484 of countries that you have. If you like an independent 0:10:34.494 --> 0:10:38.174 force who are just humanitarian assistance and disaster relief and 0:10:38.184 --> 0:10:40.643 they are troops that could be used in extremists. But 0:10:40.653 --> 0:10:43.854 their primary role is assistance rather than fighting. 0:10:44.179 --> 0:10:46.718 But there's another side to that, which is understanding the 0:10:46.729 --> 0:10:50.400 equipment needed for the adaptation that we can help in 0:10:50.409 --> 0:10:55.059 terms of building defenses against climate change. We can try 0:10:55.070 --> 0:10:59.669 and mitigate some of the worst excesses and the military 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.559 are very good at doing that rather than changing the 0:11:02.570 --> 0:11:05.840 way we operate. But it's both, there's lots and lots 0:11:05.849 --> 0:11:07.199 of things that we can do to try and make 0:11:07.210 --> 0:11:11.119 ourselves more professional at dealing with what is coming down 0:11:11.130 --> 0:11:13.960 the road to us, which is more environmental difficulties. 0:11:21.500 --> 0:11:24.650 Hello, everyone. My name is Christina and I'm Adrian and 0:11:24.659 --> 0:11:26.960 we're the host of a podcast called Work It If 0:11:26.969 --> 0:11:28.978 you never heard of it. Well, it's a good time 0:11:28.989 --> 0:11:31.520 to tap in, in the last 20 episodes. We've discussed 0:11:31.530 --> 0:11:34.789 topics like how to negotiate for a salary increase or 0:11:34.799 --> 0:11:37.409 how to get along with younger colleagues who have different 0:11:37.419 --> 0:11:38.750 values from you, which 0:11:38.869 --> 0:11:42.359 incidentally it is our top performing episode. If what consumes 0:11:42.369 --> 0:11:44.890 your life and you want some perspective on issues like 0:11:44.900 --> 0:11:49.390 management stress, even office romance. This podcast should be on 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.919 your list. A new episode drops every Monday. Catch us 0:11:52.929 --> 0:11:56.130 on the CN AM or wherever you get your podcast, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.979 any technological advancements or materials being explored to enhance the 0:12:10.989 --> 0:12:12.510 comfort and well being of soldiers. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.309 So we're doing an awful lot in trying to make 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:19.619 sure that the load on an individual in heat particularly 0:12:19.630 --> 0:12:22.010 is minimized as much as possible. 0:12:22.299 --> 0:12:25.630 The moment technologies such as Kevlar, which is used in 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.069 body armor. It is of a particular property. It stops 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.260 a lot of ballistic shrapnel and so on and the 0:12:32.270 --> 0:12:35.510 ceramic plates will stop bullets, but it is heavy and 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.049 there's physical properties which you can't get away from at 0:12:38.059 --> 0:12:40.429 the moment. So, whilst we're looking for new technologies and 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:41.359 so on at the moment, 0:12:41.630 --> 0:12:44.489 we have to protect our people to make sure they 0:12:44.500 --> 0:12:47.280 can fight at the same time as being able to operate. 0:12:47.289 --> 0:12:50.840 So it becomes a tactical. How long do you put 0:12:50.849 --> 0:12:54.510 them on patrol for in an ideal world rather than 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:57.770 a technical, but we're trying to reduce weight as well. 0:12:57.780 --> 0:13:00.799 You've discussed climate change with various individuals in the military 0:13:00.809 --> 0:13:04.210 hierarchy which say that the nature of the threat and 0:13:04.219 --> 0:13:06.130 how militaries respond to it 0:13:06.349 --> 0:13:10.609 changing. So I think climate change brings different threats and 0:13:10.619 --> 0:13:17.010 it brings different consequences which manifests itself as a type 0:13:17.020 --> 0:13:21.210 of security threat such as terrorism as in the breakdown 0:13:21.219 --> 0:13:24.449 of law and order in countries. And there are various 0:13:24.460 --> 0:13:28.520 other aspects of how a country operates, which can be 0:13:28.530 --> 0:13:31.000 very badly damaged by climate change. I mean, 0:13:31.070 --> 0:13:34.650 take Pakistan as an example, the third of Pakistan was 0:13:34.659 --> 0:13:37.359 underwater due to the floods and that affected the military. 0:13:37.369 --> 0:13:39.729 A lot of the military were trying to clear up 0:13:39.739 --> 0:13:41.968 the mess the floods caused. But I think there are 0:13:41.979 --> 0:13:46.869 other aspects of geopolitical importance and geostrategic importance such as 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.729 the melting of the Arctic that is leading to potential 0:13:50.739 --> 0:13:54.909 conflict areas or tension areas, the race for minerals and 0:13:54.919 --> 0:13:55.689 raw materials 0:13:55.789 --> 0:13:58.848 underneath the Arctic which at the moment isn't mined at all. 0:13:59.020 --> 0:14:03.049 So there are different threats that are being climate change 0:14:03.059 --> 0:14:05.760 is allowing the opportunities to develop. Certainly 0:14:05.770 --> 0:14:09.489 the warming planet exacerbating the existing conflicts and also creating 0:14:09.500 --> 0:14:11.840 new ones as well. And general, I want to talk 0:14:11.849 --> 0:14:14.840 more about your climate journey. At the end of your 0:14:14.849 --> 0:14:17.789 36 year military career, you decided to take on a 0:14:17.799 --> 0:14:20.200 pretty different enemy. And that's climate change, 0:14:20.510 --> 0:14:24.630 pivotal moment or was it accumulation of all your experiences 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.450 that shaped your perspective? So a bit of 0:14:26.460 --> 0:14:29.619 base, obviously, my experience in Iraq was very, it's sort 0:14:29.630 --> 0:14:31.640 of seared on my brain. So how difficult it was 0:14:31.650 --> 0:14:34.640 to operate in those conditions. But actually, I've been interested 0:14:34.650 --> 0:14:37.450 in this subject for a very long time. I sat 0:14:37.460 --> 0:14:40.419 my last four years, I was head of personnel for 0:14:40.429 --> 0:14:44.309 the whole of the British Defense environment. And climate change 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:45.130 was never mentioned. 0:14:45.369 --> 0:14:48.239 And I felt that it wasn't so much that I 0:14:48.250 --> 0:14:51.070 knew all the answers. I absolutely didn't, but at the 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.679 very least we should be asking the questions I asked 0:14:54.690 --> 0:14:57.869 to do the report because I felt that defense should 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.260 try and understand and I it was a voyage of 0:15:00.270 --> 0:15:03.190 discovery for me as well, but try and understand. Why 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.469 would defense be interested in climate change? Why would security 0:15:07.570 --> 0:15:10.190 be an issue for climate change because it was, we 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.590 don't really need to worry about that sort of approach 0:15:13.736 --> 0:15:17.267 from UK defense, but also from many other countries as well. 0:15:17.276 --> 0:15:21.106 That actually defense was not really engaging with climate change 0:15:21.117 --> 0:15:25.476 at all. And my report basically said there will be different, 0:15:25.486 --> 0:15:28.046 as I've just said, there will be different security threats 0:15:28.057 --> 0:15:30.077 that we need to be aware of and start to 0:15:30.086 --> 0:15:33.166 prepare for, there will be problems for our equipment that 0:15:33.177 --> 0:15:35.637 we need to be aware of and should prepare for. 0:15:35.646 --> 0:15:39.466 And then there's a whole acceptance of society that defense 0:15:39.476 --> 0:15:41.997 produces emissions and how long 0:15:42.104 --> 0:15:45.533 society, particularly in Europe going to accept that their defense 0:15:45.544 --> 0:15:49.893 forces do nothing about their emissions. And I argued that actually, 0:15:50.064 --> 0:15:52.033 I don't have a crystal ball but there will come 0:15:52.044 --> 0:15:55.104 a time when if we as a country has to 0:15:55.114 --> 0:15:58.914 by law reach net zero by 2050 when people turn 0:15:58.924 --> 0:16:02.734 around and say, why is defense contributing so much to 0:16:02.744 --> 0:16:05.883 the emissions without doing anything about it and start to 0:16:05.893 --> 0:16:09.013 limit what we can do? And my whole piece was 0:16:09.023 --> 0:16:10.364 actually defense 0:16:10.471 --> 0:16:13.570 must make the right decisions. Otherwise somebody will make the 0:16:13.580 --> 0:16:16.870 decisions for defense which will not be in defense's interest. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.431 And that's a very difficult awkward place to 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:23.351 be. You mentioned that military forces are not necessarily a 0:16:23.361 --> 0:16:25.310 tree hugging environmentalist. Could you 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.171 elaborate in peacetime with our peacetime conditions? The UK and 0:16:30.181 --> 0:16:33.010 I use the UK as an example. We're about 1 0:16:33.020 --> 0:16:36.661 to 2% of the UK S emissions in war, it 0:16:36.671 --> 0:16:38.731 goes out of all, out of all proportion. So 0:16:38.838 --> 0:16:43.208 the assessment from the Ukraine Russian war is that that 0:16:43.218 --> 0:16:46.898 war in the first, I think it was nine months, 0:16:46.908 --> 0:16:50.338 put something like 100 million tons of co two emissions 0:16:50.348 --> 0:16:54.138 into the atmosphere. This is very large amounts and war 0:16:54.148 --> 0:16:56.728 does that the war is very damaging to the climate. 0:16:56.828 --> 0:16:58.997 So there's that side of it, which is about emissions, 0:16:59.007 --> 0:17:01.418 but there's another side to it, which is that actually 0:17:01.578 --> 0:17:06.296 almost every nation that has an army has training areas. 0:17:06.307 --> 0:17:07.128 Those training areas 0:17:07.484 --> 0:17:12.813 very often are very wide open expanses of land that 0:17:12.823 --> 0:17:16.263 could be used if the temperate climates are right to 0:17:16.273 --> 0:17:22.572 enhance our carbon sequestration, enhance our ability to offset if 0:17:22.583 --> 0:17:25.244 you like the emissions that we use, but only if 0:17:25.254 --> 0:17:29.284 we treat them properly and try and maximize the carbon 0:17:29.292 --> 0:17:33.433 sequestration potential. And I think that therefore an understanding of 0:17:33.443 --> 0:17:35.463 that becomes really quite 0:17:35.722 --> 0:17:40.081 important because we have a duty. I would argue to 0:17:40.092 --> 0:17:43.432 use our land most effectively. Yes, of course, for training, 0:17:43.602 --> 0:17:47.410 but also if possible to sequester carbon that will depend 0:17:47.421 --> 0:17:48.841 on the environment. Of course, 0:17:48.852 --> 0:17:52.531 what other kinds of climate conscious military strategies would you 0:17:52.541 --> 0:17:56.671 say would prove effective or have proven effective so far? 0:17:56.682 --> 0:18:00.472 Any notable success stories or positive outcomes resulting from your 0:18:00.482 --> 0:18:01.312 work so far? 0:18:01.401 --> 0:18:03.621 I'm really heartened. I 0:18:03.948 --> 0:18:06.908 at least my whole argument on two aspects and a 0:18:06.917 --> 0:18:10.427 lot of the sort of the more radical environmentalists really 0:18:10.438 --> 0:18:12.218 don't like me when I say this, but there were 0:18:12.229 --> 0:18:14.889 two basic parameters that I wanted to try and get 0:18:14.898 --> 0:18:18.798 across the military of any country have a very clear purpose. 0:18:18.808 --> 0:18:21.029 It is to defend the citizens of that country or 0:18:21.038 --> 0:18:23.659 protect the citizens of that country. That's, that's our whole job. 0:18:23.667 --> 0:18:26.678 That's why we're there as our primary purpose. Yeah, there 0:18:26.688 --> 0:18:31.178 is little point in making a military less good than 0:18:31.188 --> 0:18:32.177 it can be. 0:18:32.306 --> 0:18:34.725 I've always argued if you can be the greenest, the navy, 0:18:34.734 --> 0:18:37.416 the greenest air force and the greenest army in the world. 0:18:37.566 --> 0:18:39.605 But if you come second in a battle, you come 0:18:39.615 --> 0:18:41.985 second in a battle. And if you're going to come 0:18:41.994 --> 0:18:44.326 second in a battle, there's almost no point in trying. Now, 0:18:44.336 --> 0:18:46.315 that's a very black and white argument. And of course, 0:18:46.326 --> 0:18:48.015 it's not as simple as that. It would never be 0:18:48.026 --> 0:18:50.375 as simple as that. But the idea is that actually 0:18:50.385 --> 0:18:53.816 we should try and optimize our capability. So what I 0:18:53.826 --> 0:18:58.015 have persuaded the UK defense is that there are new 0:18:58.026 --> 0:19:00.546 technologies that are available which optimize 0:19:01.652 --> 0:19:05.792 our capability. They make us better as a force. But 0:19:05.802 --> 0:19:10.562 these equipments and these technologies have been designed to try 0:19:10.571 --> 0:19:14.292 and reduce emissions and designed to try and combat climate change, 0:19:14.302 --> 0:19:17.892 but we're using them to enhance our capability. And there's 0:19:17.902 --> 0:19:20.532 a very good example of that. We've got some experience 0:19:20.542 --> 0:19:25.003 with some hybrid armored vehicles and hybrid patrol vehicles, not 0:19:25.012 --> 0:19:28.932 yet fully electric because that technology doesn't exist yet. But hybrid, 0:19:29.109 --> 0:19:31.959 which means that when we're on battery power, we are 0:19:31.969 --> 0:19:35.739 completely stealthy. There's no emissions, there's no heat coming from 0:19:35.750 --> 0:19:39.140 the engine and there's no noise. So we are just 0:19:39.150 --> 0:19:42.959 much better at stealthy patrol when we're on battery power. 0:19:43.189 --> 0:19:46.140 The other most interesting thing was that when we experimented, 0:19:46.150 --> 0:19:49.520 we found our soldiers were more alert because their senses 0:19:49.530 --> 0:19:54.180 weren't being dulled by both the vibration of the engine 0:19:54.189 --> 0:19:57.180 and by the noise of the engine and by the fumes. 0:19:57.569 --> 0:20:00.250 So what you've got is you've got more alert soldiers 0:20:00.260 --> 0:20:04.030 in a more stealthy environment for those particular vehicles, which 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:05.629 means that they're better on the battlefield. 0:20:06.109 --> 0:20:09.280 So there's an example where by getting hybrids and if 0:20:09.290 --> 0:20:12.430 we went all electric, if that technology existed, we've actually 0:20:12.439 --> 0:20:15.489 created a better outcome, but we've also reduced our emissions 0:20:15.500 --> 0:20:20.569 very significantly. That's fascinating. So finding those technologies that both 0:20:20.579 --> 0:20:24.010 reduce emissions, but actually at the same time, make us 0:20:24.020 --> 0:20:27.849 better or save us lots of money. So the British 0:20:27.859 --> 0:20:31.150 Army is investing a lot of money in 76 solar 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.449 farms on its bases where we are going 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.619 to reduce our electricity bill by over a third actually. 0:20:37.630 --> 0:20:40.790 And we're going to have our own supply of electricity. Now, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.699 that's really good from a cash point of view, it's 0:20:43.709 --> 0:20:47.510 also really good from a resilience point of view. So 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.229 that if for whatever reason, the National grid was brought 0:20:50.239 --> 0:20:52.479 down by a cyber attack or something like that, we'd 0:20:52.489 --> 0:20:56.379 still have electricity and as a military force having that 0:20:56.390 --> 0:20:59.280 self sufficiency and resilience is a really good idea. It 0:20:59.290 --> 0:20:59.599 sounds 0:20:59.609 --> 0:21:02.920 like an ultimate vision of intersection of military preparedness, 0:21:03.010 --> 0:21:06.310 environmental stewardship, as well as security in the face of 0:21:06.319 --> 0:21:09.069 climate change in general to wrap up. What sort of 0:21:09.079 --> 0:21:13.270 advice would you offer to other military leaders worldwide that 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.849