1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,860 Speaker 1: this is a 2 00:00:00,860 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 2: C. N. A podcast 3 00:00:04,870 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 2: on sunday night, the People's Action Party Medford bi annual 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 2: party conference where the Prime Minister addressed a 3000 strong 5 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:16,060 Speaker 2: crowd for political watchers? This is a keenly watched event 6 00:00:16,070 --> 00:00:19,419 Speaker 2: to see who gets elected to the central executive committee 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: here. The Secretary General PM lee Hsien loong also lays 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,650 Speaker 2: out what the key priorities are before the next general election, 9 00:00:26,660 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: which must take place by 2025. And P M li 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,390 Speaker 2: reiterated that the P A. P has to fight hard 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,180 Speaker 2: for every vote. That's because people want more diverse voices 12 00:00:37,180 --> 00:00:37,890 Speaker 2: in parliament. 13 00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:41,450 Speaker 2: It is something the government accepts near the more people 14 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:44,510 Speaker 2: vote for diverse voices. The greater the chance that the 15 00:00:44,510 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 2: government may not be a P. A. P. One in 16 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,190 Speaker 2: time to come. Here's PMD explaining it. There is a 17 00:00:51,190 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: growing psychology amongst many singaporeans. They want their PHP to 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,050 Speaker 2: continue governing Singapore because we are doing a good job 19 00:00:59,060 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: and there's nobody else who can do better and they 20 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,190 Speaker 2: don't really believe that any of the opposition teams can 21 00:01:05,190 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 2: do better or even do it at all. 22 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: But they also want to see more opposition mps elected 23 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:14,970 Speaker 2: to keep the P. A. P. Government on its toes. 24 00:01:14,980 --> 00:01:18,369 Speaker 2: And so they vote for the opposition fully expecting that 25 00:01:18,380 --> 00:01:21,789 Speaker 2: enough other voters will vote P. A. P and return 26 00:01:21,790 --> 00:01:22,750 Speaker 2: it to power. 27 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:26,330 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we cannot have it both ways. 28 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 2: So today we want to impact a few of these 29 00:01:29,050 --> 00:01:32,700 Speaker 2: running threads. Is there an oxymoron when it comes to 30 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:36,310 Speaker 2: diversity and majority mandate is the P A. P brand 31 00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:40,580 Speaker 2: of delivering good governance, something young voters except as readily 32 00:01:40,590 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: as their parents did. What does it mean when you 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,900 Speaker 2: can't have it both ways? And what would an ideal 34 00:01:46,910 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: opposition look like 35 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:53,590 Speaker 2: with me to discuss this? Are ian Chong associate professor 36 00:01:53,590 --> 00:01:57,980 Speaker 2: at the National University of Singapore. Hello steve wallet, Jumla Abdullah, 37 00:01:57,990 --> 00:02:00,970 Speaker 2: assistant professor at Nanyang Technological University. 38 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:02,820 Speaker 1: Hi steve nice to be here 39 00:02:02,830 --> 00:02:06,300 Speaker 2: and political science student, Jason Stephen, it's a pleasure to 40 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:09,260 Speaker 2: be here. All right guys, let's get cracking. So this 41 00:02:09,260 --> 00:02:11,630 Speaker 2: term oxymoron kind of jumps to mind. I mean there's 42 00:02:11,630 --> 00:02:12,490 Speaker 2: no secret that 43 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:15,470 Speaker 2: the share of votes going to opposition candidates has been 44 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: increasing over the years. In fact, D. P. M. Lawrence 45 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,570 Speaker 2: Wong said as much on sunday and you do the math, 46 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:24,950 Speaker 2: more people voted for the workers party than they did P. A. P. 47 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,330 Speaker 2: But if we accept the will of the people, which 48 00:02:27,330 --> 00:02:31,450 Speaker 2: is I don't want a supermajority. P ap government, then 49 00:02:31,450 --> 00:02:33,830 Speaker 2: it also runs the risk that eventually you may not 50 00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 2: have a P. A. P. Government. 51 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,690 Speaker 2: Ian help us out with this conundrum. Can you unpack 52 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: it for us? Sure, I actually think that it's a 53 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,180 Speaker 2: bit of a false dichotomy here. The P. A. P 54 00:02:44,180 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: will be able to return to office the way that 55 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,339 Speaker 2: the Districting was done last time, 93 seats, as long 56 00:02:50,340 --> 00:02:53,710 Speaker 2: as they're 47 seats, they'll return to power with 47 seats. 57 00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:56,030 Speaker 2: They can pass any law they want, they can rescind 58 00:02:56,030 --> 00:02:58,780 Speaker 2: any law they want, they can amend any law they want. 59 00:02:58,790 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: So that's not really an issue. And I think also 60 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:03,010 Speaker 2: if you look 61 00:03:03,035 --> 00:03:05,505 Speaker 2: the way that our districts are done, I did some 62 00:03:05,505 --> 00:03:08,285 Speaker 2: back of the napkin calculation over the weekend when this 63 00:03:08,285 --> 00:03:11,175 Speaker 2: stuff was announced, the lowest vote share that the P. A. 64 00:03:11,175 --> 00:03:14,185 Speaker 2: P can win to return to power 48 seats. That's 65 00:03:14,185 --> 00:03:17,795 Speaker 2: something like 23.9% for the PHP to win. It's actually 66 00:03:17,805 --> 00:03:21,514 Speaker 2: much easier I think, to say that the P A. P. 67 00:03:21,514 --> 00:03:24,985 Speaker 2: Will lose power and it's a theoretical possibility in the future. 68 00:03:24,995 --> 00:03:28,014 Speaker 2: But for the foreseeable next couple of cycles, it is 69 00:03:28,025 --> 00:03:30,485 Speaker 2: highly unlikely. And I'd also add that 70 00:03:30,510 --> 00:03:33,540 Speaker 2: at some point if two or three election cycles down 71 00:03:33,540 --> 00:03:36,790 Speaker 2: the road, some other party takes office, then so be it. 72 00:03:36,790 --> 00:03:40,500 Speaker 2: I guess this is where the political development goes. Singapore 73 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:44,530 Speaker 2: is and should be bigger than any one single political party. Okay, 74 00:03:44,530 --> 00:03:46,530 Speaker 2: so based on the numbers itself, you're saying it's not 75 00:03:46,540 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: likely to happen. But it's more of how would you 76 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,630 Speaker 2: say perhaps anxiety kind of issue? You know, you feel 77 00:03:52,630 --> 00:03:54,740 Speaker 2: like you could have done better perhaps while it helped 78 00:03:54,740 --> 00:03:56,610 Speaker 2: out with this because a big part of the P A. 79 00:03:56,610 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: P narrative for a long time has 80 00:03:57,985 --> 00:04:00,635 Speaker 2: that it's a party that delivers. And it's been doing 81 00:04:00,635 --> 00:04:05,425 Speaker 2: that since 1959. But is that enough younger voters expecting more? 82 00:04:05,435 --> 00:04:09,335 Speaker 2: Are they asking for more diversity plurality of views they 83 00:04:09,335 --> 00:04:12,915 Speaker 2: want to participate, be involved and not so concerned about 84 00:04:12,925 --> 00:04:15,905 Speaker 2: exactly how my estate runs or whether the M. R. T. 85 00:04:15,905 --> 00:04:16,674 Speaker 2: Is on time, 86 00:04:16,685 --> 00:04:19,665 Speaker 1: firstly, the system is the system, you know, the electoral 87 00:04:19,665 --> 00:04:22,925 Speaker 1: system is the electoral system and voters will try to 88 00:04:22,925 --> 00:04:25,460 Speaker 1: maximize their votes in any electoral system. 89 00:04:25,670 --> 00:04:28,430 Speaker 1: So we have a plurality of first past the post 90 00:04:28,430 --> 00:04:32,310 Speaker 1: plus party block vote system. So the voters will act 91 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: in accordance with the rules of the game. So if 92 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: what they want is a strong P ap government and 93 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,790 Speaker 1: a strong opposition, that's how they will vote in a 94 00:04:40,790 --> 00:04:44,250 Speaker 1: proportional representation system, they'll vote in a different way. So 95 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:46,659 Speaker 1: if we accept the rules of the game, then you 96 00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:49,510 Speaker 1: have to accept the outcomes as well. The second thing 97 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,300 Speaker 1: in direct relation to your question. Yes. The younger p 98 00:04:53,325 --> 00:04:56,205 Speaker 1: it seems like there is a desire for something else, 99 00:04:56,214 --> 00:04:58,465 Speaker 1: and I would say it's not just diversity. I think 100 00:04:58,464 --> 00:05:02,344 Speaker 1: Dr Shashi Jayakumar talked about this in his book, even 101 00:05:02,355 --> 00:05:05,224 Speaker 1: if you recall the day after the election Minister Shanmugam 102 00:05:05,225 --> 00:05:08,525 Speaker 1: said that younger people think differently about race and religion 103 00:05:08,525 --> 00:05:10,645 Speaker 1: and the P A P has to do quote unquote 104 00:05:10,645 --> 00:05:11,775 Speaker 1: some soul searching. 105 00:05:12,029 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: I think it's more than just diversity of voices. There 106 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,310 Speaker 1: is also a sense that dr was talking about this time, 107 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:21,620 Speaker 1: there seemed to be something different. There was a focus 108 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: on justice as well. And maybe the high handed tactics 109 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,150 Speaker 1: that happened as the campaign developed, they did walk back 110 00:05:28,150 --> 00:05:31,540 Speaker 1: the tactics it seems to have had an effect on 111 00:05:31,540 --> 00:05:34,790 Speaker 1: younger voters especially so say yes diversity, but more than 112 00:05:34,790 --> 00:05:36,659 Speaker 1: that justice, but at the same time, 113 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:40,550 Speaker 1: ultimately, material factors matter as well. And there are some 114 00:05:40,550 --> 00:05:44,510 Speaker 1: material concerns as well with regard to the HDB for instance. 115 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:49,620 Speaker 1: So it's not just diversity or justice, material factors will 116 00:05:49,630 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: play into it as well. It's fair to say that 117 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,190 Speaker 1: there is a more complex political arena. 118 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,470 Speaker 2: Well, j you are the youngest on our panel here, 119 00:05:58,470 --> 00:06:00,870 Speaker 2: you're still a student. What's your response? Do you agree 120 00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:01,299 Speaker 2: with that? 121 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,789 Speaker 2: I think in terms of what our generation wants, what 122 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,060 Speaker 2: I think is considered like good governance, so to speak, 123 00:06:07,070 --> 00:06:10,820 Speaker 2: it's really about the government's role of like facilitating maybe 124 00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:13,150 Speaker 2: not just material needs, but it's also about more like 125 00:06:13,150 --> 00:06:15,849 Speaker 2: an independent sort of like, what do you want from 126 00:06:15,850 --> 00:06:18,810 Speaker 2: your government? For me, it's really about a government that 127 00:06:18,810 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: can facilitate, like, an independent civil ecosystem. So, what I 128 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:22,550 Speaker 2: mean 129 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,350 Speaker 2: By that, it's really about encouraging political discourse is even 130 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:28,140 Speaker 2: if it comes at times where my views maybe from 131 00:06:28,140 --> 00:06:30,770 Speaker 2: my generation will be conflicting with maybe what the state 132 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:33,220 Speaker 2: things in that sense. I think that is something that 133 00:06:33,230 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 2: going forward is really what this country needs. So, those 134 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,470 Speaker 2: kind of discussions, if I could put it on a 135 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:40,870 Speaker 2: scale of 1 to 10. How important is it for 136 00:06:40,870 --> 00:06:43,589 Speaker 2: you to have such debates such discourse 137 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,810 Speaker 2: About issues personally, I want to express myself in a 138 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: way that I'm not just taking in whatever information I'm given, 139 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,580 Speaker 2: whether it's through the news or what my parents tell 140 00:06:53,580 --> 00:06:56,510 Speaker 2: me when we discuss political issues, it's meaningful when you, 141 00:06:56,510 --> 00:06:58,150 Speaker 2: when we have like a more like a two way 142 00:06:58,150 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: sort of how much niceness. So on a scale of 143 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,170 Speaker 2: 1 to 10, if you had to put a number 144 00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:04,630 Speaker 2: to it, how important is it for you? 145 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: If I had to pick a number will probably be 146 00:07:07,570 --> 00:07:09,150 Speaker 2: an eight, I'm not trying to put you on the 147 00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:11,450 Speaker 2: spot here. I'm just trying to figure out if you 148 00:07:11,450 --> 00:07:13,290 Speaker 2: ask a wallet and Ian, you know, and then if 149 00:07:13,290 --> 00:07:15,910 Speaker 2: you ask your parents in their day and age, different 150 00:07:15,910 --> 00:07:18,260 Speaker 2: issues were of priority. So I guess the more bread 151 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:21,420 Speaker 2: and butter issues were of greater concern. Perhaps you can 152 00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:23,180 Speaker 2: help me with this. This is a sign of how 153 00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:25,550 Speaker 2: we are maturing as a society. So that 154 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,090 Speaker 2: the things we want to discuss be involved in just 155 00:07:29,100 --> 00:07:31,820 Speaker 2: different I guess. So I'd say two things. One is 156 00:07:31,820 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: that the electorate is quite pluralistic. Singapore is a diverse society. 157 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,180 Speaker 2: So even within one age group cohort, there are people 158 00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:43,850 Speaker 2: who have very different circumstances and they want different things. 159 00:07:43,860 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: There will be some who issues like justice will matter. 160 00:07:47,730 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: There will be some for whom grandmother issues might matter 161 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,210 Speaker 2: a little bit more, there haven't been said. I do 162 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: think that there is a difference across time and the 163 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,500 Speaker 2: sort of first couple generations where the country was really 164 00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:03,750 Speaker 2: newly independent and survival was of an issue 165 00:08:03,768 --> 00:08:08,227 Speaker 2: those kinds of immediate matters of putting food on the table, 166 00:08:08,238 --> 00:08:11,438 Speaker 2: survival defense and all that was, I suppose very immediate. 167 00:08:11,448 --> 00:08:13,518 Speaker 2: But so because we've got it done right, we've got 168 00:08:13,518 --> 00:08:15,668 Speaker 2: those areas covered now. Is that why we sort of 169 00:08:15,668 --> 00:08:18,988 Speaker 2: have the luxury to focus on other areas? And is 170 00:08:18,988 --> 00:08:22,658 Speaker 2: it also because we have a more educated population And 171 00:08:22,658 --> 00:08:24,928 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say necessarily is a luxury. I think it 172 00:08:24,928 --> 00:08:29,048 Speaker 2: is a necessity as society develops right? As a kid, 173 00:08:29,058 --> 00:08:31,368 Speaker 2: we have certain developmental needs as a 174 00:08:31,566 --> 00:08:33,925 Speaker 2: adult, as an adult, as someone who's more mature. I mean, 175 00:08:33,926 --> 00:08:36,636 Speaker 2: it just comes with the territory. So you're right. We 176 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:38,626 Speaker 2: got those things done. There are other concerns to be 177 00:08:38,626 --> 00:08:41,456 Speaker 2: worried about. So where do we move on from here? 178 00:08:41,456 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 2: We've got the basics done as we think about moving 179 00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:48,666 Speaker 2: ahead together society, given our pluralism, given our diversity, given 180 00:08:48,666 --> 00:08:51,046 Speaker 2: the concerns that we have in our neighborhood, where do 181 00:08:51,046 --> 00:08:53,446 Speaker 2: we want to go, how can we account for ourselves better? 182 00:08:53,446 --> 00:08:56,456 Speaker 2: And I would say that there's no immediate answer to 183 00:08:56,456 --> 00:08:58,256 Speaker 2: a lot of this. Right? This goes back to what 184 00:08:58,256 --> 00:08:59,210 Speaker 2: jay was saying. There's a 185 00:08:59,224 --> 00:09:01,154 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that we don't really know, no 186 00:09:01,154 --> 00:09:04,754 Speaker 2: one really knows. So it's important to have as much 187 00:09:04,754 --> 00:09:07,484 Speaker 2: information as possible to have a discussion and even to 188 00:09:07,484 --> 00:09:10,184 Speaker 2: disagree in a way that is respectful of others and 189 00:09:10,184 --> 00:09:12,883 Speaker 2: sometimes to be able to agree to disagree. That's something 190 00:09:12,884 --> 00:09:16,174 Speaker 2: I think Singapore, we're still learning to do. But this 191 00:09:16,174 --> 00:09:20,004 Speaker 2: is quite different from our parents generation where they were 192 00:09:20,004 --> 00:09:22,154 Speaker 2: more concerned about those bread and butter issues and they 193 00:09:22,154 --> 00:09:26,593 Speaker 2: didn't have the luxury of having discourse over whether this 194 00:09:26,594 --> 00:09:26,914 Speaker 2: should be 195 00:09:26,952 --> 00:09:31,082 Speaker 2: policy, whether justice and equality, it seemed a bit foreign 196 00:09:31,082 --> 00:09:33,272 Speaker 2: to them at that time. It's in the pledge steve. 197 00:09:33,282 --> 00:09:35,411 Speaker 2: So somebody thought about it at that point in time. 198 00:09:35,422 --> 00:09:37,442 Speaker 2: I know, but I'm just saying it wasn't the coffee 199 00:09:37,442 --> 00:09:40,261 Speaker 2: table discussion that people had. You go for a copy, 200 00:09:40,261 --> 00:09:43,062 Speaker 2: you're not talking about, oh you know, let's talk about equality. 201 00:09:43,072 --> 00:09:45,671 Speaker 1: If I could jump in. It depends on who you're 202 00:09:45,672 --> 00:09:49,642 Speaker 1: talking about as well. When we were having this discussion 203 00:09:49,642 --> 00:09:51,742 Speaker 1: last year, right about chinese privilege and there were some 204 00:09:51,742 --> 00:09:54,222 Speaker 1: people who say no, this is really a young person 205 00:09:54,222 --> 00:09:54,672 Speaker 1: thing 206 00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:57,490 Speaker 1: actually at my coffee table, like my mom and dad 207 00:09:57,490 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: were talking about it, they may not have used that term, 208 00:10:00,330 --> 00:10:03,650 Speaker 1: but they were talking about the concept since a very 209 00:10:03,650 --> 00:10:06,620 Speaker 1: young age and if you talk about inequality and it 210 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:08,970 Speaker 1: affects a lot of people, so you are right Stephen 211 00:10:08,970 --> 00:10:12,650 Speaker 1: that we are talking about maybe different segments of society, right? 212 00:10:12,650 --> 00:10:13,500 Speaker 1: Some of them, 213 00:10:13,670 --> 00:10:15,510 Speaker 1: they have been talking about this for the longest time 214 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,929 Speaker 1: and you're right now, especially among the younger generation who 215 00:10:18,929 --> 00:10:21,950 Speaker 1: are more educated and they feel more of a sense 216 00:10:21,950 --> 00:10:26,189 Speaker 1: of this. You see these discussions even across class, that 217 00:10:26,190 --> 00:10:28,790 Speaker 1: is that new thing. But I think also it has 218 00:10:28,790 --> 00:10:31,650 Speaker 1: existed I guess in smaller pockets of society 219 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:34,050 Speaker 2: just to add to this point, they're more outlets now. 220 00:10:34,059 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 2: So before, in terms of 221 00:10:35,615 --> 00:10:39,595 Speaker 2: public broadcasting newspapers more limited now, we're doing this podcasting, 222 00:10:39,605 --> 00:10:42,265 Speaker 2: they're far more opportunities for different voices to be heard. 223 00:10:42,275 --> 00:10:47,035 Speaker 2: Is this going to be more challenging for the next government? 224 00:10:47,035 --> 00:10:52,525 Speaker 2: Because these are not as tangible issues, they're a bit conceptual, right? 225 00:10:52,525 --> 00:10:55,165 Speaker 2: How do you solve these problems? It's not like I 226 00:10:55,165 --> 00:10:57,545 Speaker 2: can just fix the MRT by buying a new one. 227 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 2: Will this be challenging for them to sort of win 228 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: votes in that sense? It will be. But I suppose 229 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,579 Speaker 2: it's a mark of metal, right? You have to be 230 00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:07,510 Speaker 2: able to move beyond the sort of more basic sorts 231 00:11:07,510 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: of issues that we face in the sixties and seventies. 232 00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 2: We have a more diverse environment. I mean, this is 233 00:11:12,570 --> 00:11:16,189 Speaker 2: why we are putting so much truck into the sort 234 00:11:16,190 --> 00:11:18,420 Speaker 2: of leaders that have to rise up to the occasion. Well, 235 00:11:18,420 --> 00:11:21,130 Speaker 2: gee maybe because we've been talking also about how, you know, 236 00:11:21,130 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: many people want to have more of an opposition voice 237 00:11:23,570 --> 00:11:25,410 Speaker 2: in parliament, you know, in our government. 238 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:27,450 Speaker 2: Is it important to you? I think to a large 239 00:11:27,450 --> 00:11:30,380 Speaker 2: extent it is, but I'll put an asterisk to it, 240 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:33,459 Speaker 2: having a greater opposition for it is a way of 241 00:11:33,470 --> 00:11:35,190 Speaker 2: kind of like my rating of eight out of 10 242 00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: for civil discourse. That is important. But the reason why 243 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:39,819 Speaker 2: I don't give a 10 out of 10 is also 244 00:11:39,820 --> 00:11:43,370 Speaker 2: because I personally value like the bread and butter issues 245 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:46,510 Speaker 2: about me having maybe the sort of stability, maybe not 246 00:11:46,510 --> 00:11:49,490 Speaker 2: in the way that we're not getting ourselves into like ethnic, 247 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:50,550 Speaker 2: racial really 248 00:11:50,566 --> 00:11:52,636 Speaker 2: just riots, that kind of stuff. So I think jay 249 00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:54,546 Speaker 2: has a great point there. You know, the sort of 250 00:11:54,546 --> 00:11:57,086 Speaker 2: bread and butter issues, those stability issues, they're not separate 251 00:11:57,086 --> 00:12:00,746 Speaker 2: from having more sort of checks and balances in the legislature. 252 00:12:00,756 --> 00:12:05,296 Speaker 2: If we assume that legislatures are human institutions and people 253 00:12:05,296 --> 00:12:07,656 Speaker 2: who are in power are humans, They have a potential 254 00:12:07,655 --> 00:12:10,315 Speaker 2: to make mistakes, They have potential not to see things. 255 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:13,066 Speaker 2: They have potential to be distracted by other sorts of issues. 256 00:12:13,066 --> 00:12:15,556 Speaker 2: And this is why this sort of other voice 257 00:12:15,572 --> 00:12:17,112 Speaker 2: voice to sort of bring, hey, maybe we need to 258 00:12:17,112 --> 00:12:21,322 Speaker 2: consider these other issues that affects how we're doing distribution right? 259 00:12:21,322 --> 00:12:23,952 Speaker 2: That's the bread and butter issue that affects how we 260 00:12:23,952 --> 00:12:27,052 Speaker 2: talk about gender issues and inter ethnic relations? So the 261 00:12:27,052 --> 00:12:29,881 Speaker 2: sort of having a greater voice is not divorced from 262 00:12:29,892 --> 00:12:32,682 Speaker 2: the bread and butter issues. Why does the P. A. P. 263 00:12:32,682 --> 00:12:34,732 Speaker 2: Keep championing that shouldn't be the case 264 00:12:34,742 --> 00:12:37,102 Speaker 1: is the nature of power, right? Do not want to 265 00:12:37,102 --> 00:12:40,292 Speaker 1: concede power concedes nothing without demand. So we should expect 266 00:12:40,292 --> 00:12:40,580 Speaker 1: that 267 00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:43,670 Speaker 1: we should expect that the ruling party would not do 268 00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: that in the States. There is a saying, right, there 269 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,150 Speaker 1: are only two ways to run an election unopposed or scared. 270 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: So as long as you have an opponent, no matter 271 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,809 Speaker 1: how weak the opponent is, it's wise to be scared. 272 00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:58,110 Speaker 1: And any good party that runs an election should be 273 00:12:58,110 --> 00:13:00,590 Speaker 1: running in that way. So we should expect that from 274 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,870 Speaker 1: the government. Right? Just a point on diversity. I think diversity, yes, 275 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,950 Speaker 1: a strong opposition. So I personally want a strong P. A. 276 00:13:08,950 --> 00:13:10,449 Speaker 1: P and a strong opposition. 277 00:13:10,463 --> 00:13:13,313 Speaker 1: But I think also to look for diversity. We must 278 00:13:13,313 --> 00:13:17,243 Speaker 1: want diversity and desire and push for diversity outside the 279 00:13:17,243 --> 00:13:22,143 Speaker 1: opposition as well. So nominated mps. That's another way. Civil society, 280 00:13:22,143 --> 00:13:24,773 Speaker 1: that's another way. And also within the P. A. P. 281 00:13:24,783 --> 00:13:27,213 Speaker 1: In this new era, maybe it's the P. A P 282 00:13:27,213 --> 00:13:30,073 Speaker 1: also should look to maybe lifting the whip once in 283 00:13:30,073 --> 00:13:31,463 Speaker 1: a while and letting the Mp 284 00:13:31,486 --> 00:13:33,836 Speaker 1: we speak according to their conscience. So we should have 285 00:13:33,846 --> 00:13:35,986 Speaker 1: diversity from all angles. I 286 00:13:35,986 --> 00:13:37,805 Speaker 2: think it's to say that it's not really a thing 287 00:13:37,806 --> 00:13:40,626 Speaker 2: of like PP saying yes, opposition says be you know, 288 00:13:40,626 --> 00:13:42,756 Speaker 2: but it could be the fact that not everything needs 289 00:13:42,756 --> 00:13:45,826 Speaker 2: to always be antagonistic, but perhaps it's having the diversity 290 00:13:45,826 --> 00:13:48,376 Speaker 2: of voices to either complement or to refine maybe what 291 00:13:48,376 --> 00:13:50,915 Speaker 2: the PP thinks on things to build on what day 292 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:54,316 Speaker 2: and what it has been saying, the point of having 293 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,050 Speaker 2: the PHP say things that does is also there's a 294 00:13:57,050 --> 00:13:59,630 Speaker 2: certain status quo bias, right? They are used to being 295 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:02,219 Speaker 2: able to be a lot more dominant. That status quo 296 00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:05,090 Speaker 2: bias will sort of create a want right to make 297 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:07,590 Speaker 2: sure things go on as they always have. But that's 298 00:14:07,590 --> 00:14:10,140 Speaker 2: of course the people's interest and it's completely understandable as 299 00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: well it said. But whether other people voters, ordinary folks 300 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: are they're interested in it, it's a different question altogether. So, 301 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: if we had more of these diversity of voices, let's 302 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: say we 303 00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: several parties in Parliament, but if they were maybe not 304 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: such great politicians, could that work against us too, Would 305 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,119 Speaker 2: that be bad for the country? 306 00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:31,750 Speaker 1: Well, the voters will sort it out. If we say 307 00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:34,420 Speaker 1: that the voters have chosen the PHP all this while 308 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: and they have made the right choice, then we cannot 309 00:14:36,610 --> 00:14:38,570 Speaker 1: turn around and say when the voters do not choose 310 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:41,090 Speaker 1: a P A P in certain wards, then they have 311 00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: not made the right choice, right? So we cannot have 312 00:14:43,330 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: our cake and eat it. And I think if there 313 00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:45,780 Speaker 1: are 314 00:14:46,070 --> 00:14:49,290 Speaker 1: under performance in parliament, trust the process, right? And let 315 00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:51,930 Speaker 1: the process without these people in the next election. 316 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:55,270 Speaker 2: If you're talking about passing legislation and making policy as 317 00:14:55,270 --> 00:14:57,870 Speaker 2: long as there's a simple majority in our system, you 318 00:14:57,870 --> 00:14:59,290 Speaker 2: get to do it. You get to do it all 319 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:02,530 Speaker 2: with the exception of constitutional amendments. As long as the 320 00:15:02,530 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: people enjoy that simple majority, they still get to do 321 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,300 Speaker 2: everything that they want. They will be more debate in Parliament. 322 00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:09,110 Speaker 2: But when it comes down to voting, this is where 323 00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: numbers matter, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. 324 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:14,410 Speaker 2: So at the end of the day, they can still 325 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:17,470 Speaker 2: run the country is just that perhaps the process of 326 00:15:17,470 --> 00:15:19,870 Speaker 2: getting there will involve a lot more discussion if you 327 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: have a lot more alternative voices. 328 00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 2: Hi, my name is Sarah Khaldi and I'm the host 329 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,700 Speaker 2: of a new podcast called Money talks. Yes, we will 330 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: be talking about money, but more than that, we'll also 331 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: be talking about life, personal choices, lucky breaks and how 332 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,650 Speaker 2: money is the thread running through it all. So look 333 00:15:41,650 --> 00:15:44,330 Speaker 2: out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. 334 00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:51,270 Speaker 2: Pm also devoted a big part of his speech to 335 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:54,390 Speaker 2: the opposition, his assessment of how the Workers Party is 336 00:15:54,390 --> 00:15:56,930 Speaker 2: that while it's crafted itself a strong base, it's still 337 00:15:56,930 --> 00:15:59,410 Speaker 2: far from ideal. We know they've often called them PHP 338 00:15:59,410 --> 00:16:02,700 Speaker 2: light and how they kind of went missing on certain 339 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:06,380 Speaker 2: spiky issues like 377 a what's your response to that? 340 00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:09,700 Speaker 2: So I don't actually think they've gone missing various opposition parties, 341 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,050 Speaker 2: not just the Workers Party, they've appeared at pink dot 342 00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:15,500 Speaker 2: so they've made their stand clear quite early on. 343 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,300 Speaker 2: And also we still have to see the debate. I 344 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: think on the 28th of november to see what the 345 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,660 Speaker 2: Workers Party and also the PSB has to say. And finally, 346 00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: this is the P. A. P. S. Characterization, they are 347 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,390 Speaker 2: competing political parties. Of course, they're going to say that 348 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: just like if you post the opposite question to the 349 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,460 Speaker 2: Workers Party, I'm sure they'll give a correct 350 00:16:33,475 --> 00:16:35,335 Speaker 2: authorization of the P. A P A P A P 351 00:16:35,335 --> 00:16:36,725 Speaker 2: may take issue with 352 00:16:36,735 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: I think PM's speech during that conference, we must remember 353 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: that he was speaking yes, he's the Prime Minister, he's 354 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: always speaking in the capacity of the Prime minister, but 355 00:16:46,170 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: also he was speaking in the capacity as the leader, 356 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,740 Speaker 1: the secretary general of the P. A. P. And I 357 00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:54,479 Speaker 1: think that speech should be interpreted through that lens more 358 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: than through the lens of the Prime Minister for instance, 359 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,470 Speaker 1: and he is actually not wrong. The Workers Party especially right, 360 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,630 Speaker 1: has been purposely 361 00:17:02,910 --> 00:17:05,909 Speaker 1: ambiguous on this at times, but I don't think you 362 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:09,250 Speaker 1: can say the same for the other party's SDP has 363 00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:12,900 Speaker 1: taken a stance on 3778 for the longest time, even 364 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:14,550 Speaker 1: before the P. A. P has taken a stance. So 365 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:16,850 Speaker 1: that's the first thing. So one is that criticism towards 366 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:20,810 Speaker 1: the WP on section 377 A that's a fair one 367 00:17:20,820 --> 00:17:22,010 Speaker 1: at the same time, 368 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,530 Speaker 1: it is a P. A. P policy. So when they 369 00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:28,290 Speaker 1: are talking about a policy change, obviously they are the 370 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:30,300 Speaker 1: ones who are going to be moving it and discussing 371 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:33,190 Speaker 1: it more so I would say yes, there's some truth 372 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: in it, but also it's expected that the P A 373 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: P is the one who will be moving the discussions. 374 00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:40,540 Speaker 2: But j let me ask you a bit about opposition parties, 375 00:17:40,540 --> 00:17:44,550 Speaker 2: because they have more challenges when in terms of competing, 376 00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's almost like running a race with two 377 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,740 Speaker 2: hands tied behind their backs. There's a reluctance for people 378 00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:52,060 Speaker 2: to join and be with them to stand on the 379 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: opposition ticket. Do you feel that opposition parties here in 380 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,909 Speaker 2: Singapore have a disadvantage? 381 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,540 Speaker 2: And this may be how I'm understanding the reality right now, 382 00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:03,230 Speaker 2: is that there seems to be the case. But maybe 383 00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: what what kind of alluded to is, you know, it's 384 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: about letting the people decide that comes with the idea 385 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,250 Speaker 2: that what opposition is pushing for is not something that 386 00:18:12,250 --> 00:18:14,510 Speaker 2: they're doing alone, but it's really sort of like a 387 00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: communal effort. 388 00:18:15,530 --> 00:18:18,630 Speaker 1: There's no doubt that the opposition would feel that. And 389 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: justifiably so. And this is partly also because 390 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,990 Speaker 1: we have only known one ruling party. So almost every 391 00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: single thing is tied to the ruling party, right. Whether 392 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:35,540 Speaker 1: it's grassroots organizations, community organizations, even places of worship. So, 393 00:18:35,550 --> 00:18:39,660 Speaker 1: almost everything directly or indirectly is tied to the ruling party. Right? 394 00:18:39,670 --> 00:18:43,510 Speaker 1: You open the newspapers every day. You see ministers after 395 00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:46,690 Speaker 1: ministers and and just the nature of the government, 396 00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:50,270 Speaker 1: the biggest newsmakers right. The opposition will be at a disadvantage. 397 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,430 Speaker 1: But that disadvantage is not insurmountable is not to the 398 00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:58,790 Speaker 1: extent that it makes our elections meaningless, our elections are meaningful? 399 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,270 Speaker 1: And voters have shown that if they are not happy, 400 00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,220 Speaker 1: they are willing to vote against the P. A. P. 401 00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: We 402 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,620 Speaker 2: remember one very dominant ruling party, the P. A. P. 403 00:19:06,619 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: Wasn't the ruling party from 57 to 59. Just a 404 00:19:10,010 --> 00:19:11,010 Speaker 2: side note there, 405 00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:13,909 Speaker 2: why do you think that was the case, firstly? I 406 00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: think the P. A. P back in the late fifties, 407 00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:18,869 Speaker 2: they were fairly new, the ground was more open, They 408 00:19:18,869 --> 00:19:22,070 Speaker 2: had different alternatives. And since they got into power, this 409 00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:24,500 Speaker 2: is where while it's point comes in, right, they have 410 00:19:24,510 --> 00:19:27,570 Speaker 2: been able to become very, very dominant, they've been able 411 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:31,970 Speaker 2: to insinuate themselves into virtually every part of life. So, 412 00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:34,459 Speaker 2: you think about the P. A. For instance, right? Which 413 00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:37,050 Speaker 2: they run the community clubs and so on. They have 414 00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:38,540 Speaker 2: grassroots advisers. And so the 415 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,490 Speaker 2: the distance between the P. A. P. As a party 416 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:44,370 Speaker 2: and the state, sometimes it's very, very close. So that 417 00:19:44,369 --> 00:19:47,070 Speaker 2: is the impression that of course, many people go away 418 00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:50,490 Speaker 2: with theoretically, as this distance, but still the impression, I 419 00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: think is quite strong going back to what what it said, right, 420 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,990 Speaker 2: That certainly gives a very strong incumbency advantage. Yeah, it's 421 00:19:57,990 --> 00:20:00,510 Speaker 2: like you're always there doing things for me helping out 422 00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:04,139 Speaker 2: in this and that. So could it happen where one day, 423 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:06,490 Speaker 2: like in 57 when the P. A. P. Wasn't the 424 00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:07,419 Speaker 2: ruling party, 425 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:10,780 Speaker 2: Could the tables ever flip here, how would that significantly 426 00:20:10,790 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: hit our country? Because as you said in our lives, 427 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,020 Speaker 2: in our daily lives, one 428 00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: of the ways for us to understand this hypothetical is 429 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: to look at other countries, every country is unique, but 430 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,180 Speaker 1: Singapore is not unique in this regard, that other countries 431 00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:26,110 Speaker 1: have had dominant one parties as well. They have had 432 00:20:26,109 --> 00:20:29,010 Speaker 1: changes in their government as well. Japan had granted for 433 00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:32,310 Speaker 1: only a short period, but they have experience that Malaysia 434 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:35,490 Speaker 1: had that Mexico had that as well. Right after that, 435 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:38,260 Speaker 1: the country did function. Things will never be the same, 436 00:20:38,260 --> 00:20:40,470 Speaker 1: but a lot of times it's for the better, right, 437 00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:43,550 Speaker 1: the political development and so on. When we are living 438 00:20:43,550 --> 00:20:46,700 Speaker 1: under one reality is very difficult to envision it, but 439 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: once it happens, things do not collapse, right? Especially because 440 00:20:50,170 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: I 441 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:52,609 Speaker 1: and maybe the P. A. P may be a victim 442 00:20:52,609 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: of its own success because our civil service is a 443 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,909 Speaker 1: very good civil service is a very strong civil service 444 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,609 Speaker 1: that can withstand actually a government change. That is such 445 00:21:02,609 --> 00:21:05,750 Speaker 1: a distant possibility, right? It will not really 446 00:21:06,050 --> 00:21:09,730 Speaker 1: be something that's so earth shattering that our country will collapse. 447 00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: I 448 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,060 Speaker 2: definitely agree. If you think about other examples out there, right, 449 00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: South Korea Taiwan Indonesia for a place that's much closer 450 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,710 Speaker 2: to home. These are places that they've had changeovers and 451 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,190 Speaker 2: there wasn't some apocalypse, there was some transitional issues. But 452 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: if you look at, say South Korea right there transition, 453 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,430 Speaker 2: democracy has also dovetailed with their very visible global success 454 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,570 Speaker 2: as a trading power as a manufacture 455 00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:36,500 Speaker 2: power as an entity that really pushes out very attractive 456 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: cultural products as well. Sometimes I tease my friends that, 457 00:21:39,609 --> 00:21:41,460 Speaker 2: you know, our government is so good because they do 458 00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:43,540 Speaker 2: so much for us. I mean, which other government in 459 00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:47,180 Speaker 2: the world has time to worry about your diabetes? You 460 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:49,850 Speaker 2: know what I mean? I don't know, governments with strong 461 00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:52,330 Speaker 2: public health systems, that's what theoretically that they're supposed to 462 00:21:52,330 --> 00:21:54,730 Speaker 2: be doing. But most of the time they're fighting fires, 463 00:21:54,730 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: dealing with other issues in a way we are very privileged, right? 464 00:21:58,770 --> 00:21:59,100 Speaker 2: I think 465 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,350 Speaker 2: that's a bit of an assumption. There are varieties of 466 00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:03,550 Speaker 2: public health systems. If you look at the Taiwan one 467 00:22:03,550 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: is actually pretty robust, The japanese one is pretty good. Sure. 468 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,500 Speaker 2: I mean every system has its flaws, but I think 469 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:11,020 Speaker 2: sometimes in Singapore, we like to tell ourselves this. So 470 00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:14,389 Speaker 2: we're different. We're exceptional, but maybe we're not that except 471 00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:16,899 Speaker 2: the things that we can learn. But are we too pampered? 472 00:22:16,910 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: What is too pampered? I mean, this is also part 473 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: of the way that the P A. P tries to 474 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,530 Speaker 2: get folks right, tries to deliver services and so presumably 475 00:22:24,540 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 2: if some other 476 00:22:25,650 --> 00:22:28,250 Speaker 2: the party comes to power, it has the same access 477 00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: to state mechanisms they may do something very similar to 478 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,870 Speaker 2: for the very same motivation because they want to stay 479 00:22:33,869 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: in power. So j you've been quiet for a while again, 480 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: your your point of view on what you've been hearing 481 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,970 Speaker 2: so far. What I've always been talking with my friends 482 00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:43,149 Speaker 2: about when we talk about being pampered and whether it's 483 00:22:43,150 --> 00:22:46,770 Speaker 2: being like paternalistic, the consensus is that is among them 484 00:22:46,770 --> 00:22:48,940 Speaker 2: is that this is not right, we should be doing 485 00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:50,980 Speaker 2: something else, you know, PP should be a bit more 486 00:22:50,990 --> 00:22:52,170 Speaker 2: quote unquote, like laser fair. 487 00:22:52,190 --> 00:22:53,970 Speaker 2: Coming to one of my friends, the question I had 488 00:22:53,970 --> 00:22:56,810 Speaker 2: in mind was like how is that necessarily like a problem? 489 00:22:56,820 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: You know, I always bring about you're talking about this 490 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,930 Speaker 2: cause and also like bread and butter is to say 491 00:23:00,930 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: that individually we all have different needs to have a 492 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,810 Speaker 2: government that is very active and upfront about being so 493 00:23:06,810 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: invested in so called like almost every facet of our life. 494 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,449 Speaker 2: I think that is something impressive, but we must admit 495 00:23:12,450 --> 00:23:14,810 Speaker 2: that the ruling party actually infrastructure the way the country 496 00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:16,629 Speaker 2: is run. There are many great things that happened here 497 00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:18,710 Speaker 2: in Singapore. We're very privileged in that respect. 498 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:21,379 Speaker 2: But do you ever feel as a young person that 499 00:23:21,390 --> 00:23:24,939 Speaker 2: some things are just too Yeah, as you mentioned, restricted 500 00:23:24,940 --> 00:23:28,710 Speaker 2: there to plan their too rigid, Do you want more flexibility? 501 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:33,310 Speaker 2: Do you want more diversity? More choice, more options? For sure. 502 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,389 Speaker 2: Maybe how I'm thinking is always to think of like 503 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,210 Speaker 2: the extreme ends of things when we have maybe too 504 00:23:37,210 --> 00:23:40,030 Speaker 2: much choice. So maybe casing points like other sort of 505 00:23:40,030 --> 00:23:43,270 Speaker 2: democracies like say the U. S. For example at least 506 00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:43,750 Speaker 2: in my opinion. 507 00:23:43,770 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 2: And it's just a lot of voices in the sense 508 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,410 Speaker 2: and that can even create inefficient sort of government and 509 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 2: ensuring good governance. So I think there needs to be 510 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,410 Speaker 2: sort of that balance. And how many specifically for me, 511 00:23:53,410 --> 00:23:55,650 Speaker 2: how I see that sort of balance is maybe as 512 00:23:55,650 --> 00:23:57,470 Speaker 2: to how the opposition has been trying to debate on 513 00:23:57,470 --> 00:24:00,140 Speaker 2: certain issues like say like in the housing issues, the 514 00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: dismissal of it and how mps young take about housing 515 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,730 Speaker 2: I think and how it was just brushed off in 516 00:24:05,730 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: my opinion, I thought maybe things could be better handled 517 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 2: and 518 00:24:08,619 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: things can be more accommodative rather than how I think 519 00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:13,830 Speaker 2: the PHP has shifted towards things like oh this is 520 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,459 Speaker 2: becoming an issue about racial tensions, the US that the 521 00:24:17,460 --> 00:24:20,390 Speaker 2: system is designed to be inefficient, They purposely allow for 522 00:24:20,390 --> 00:24:22,790 Speaker 2: deliberation and they are not the only model of democracy 523 00:24:22,790 --> 00:24:25,150 Speaker 2: out there. They probably may not be the best. So 524 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 2: just because they are well publicized, doesn't mean to say 525 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: that the model to follow and I agree with steve 526 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:32,060 Speaker 2: a lot of things that are very good and what 527 00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:33,460 Speaker 2: we enjoy. But as 528 00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:37,620 Speaker 2: people, you know, we do want to seek improvement right? 529 00:24:37,619 --> 00:24:40,090 Speaker 2: We want to better what we have and want to 530 00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:42,230 Speaker 2: sort of be able to think, okay what are the 531 00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:45,540 Speaker 2: sort of ways for that? We can build on our achievements, right? Otherwise, 532 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:47,060 Speaker 2: it's about, okay, we're just going to rest on our 533 00:24:47,060 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 2: laurels and we enjoy what we have now when we 534 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,950 Speaker 2: think about how to do better. Well, does the sort 535 00:24:51,950 --> 00:24:55,330 Speaker 2: of process, do the actors who are participating in that process? 536 00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:58,330 Speaker 2: Does that have to require some adjustment from time to time? 537 00:24:58,630 --> 00:25:00,750 Speaker 1: It was raining heavily just now. So when I was 538 00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: parking then there was just a short stretch where there 539 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,170 Speaker 1: wasn't a shelter 540 00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:06,869 Speaker 1: and I was already complaining, you know, so to answer 541 00:25:06,869 --> 00:25:10,830 Speaker 1: your question, yes, we are pampered however, right. The government 542 00:25:10,830 --> 00:25:13,780 Speaker 1: has also been the one who has always talked up 543 00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:15,850 Speaker 1: those things. We are the ones who built this. So 544 00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:17,730 Speaker 1: ultimately this is the standard that we are going to 545 00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:20,870 Speaker 1: judge them by. So even if we are pampered, which 546 00:25:20,869 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: I agree with you, we are but because the government 547 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,060 Speaker 1: has claimed credit for that, so they cannot be slip 548 00:25:26,060 --> 00:25:27,330 Speaker 1: up in those standards. So 549 00:25:27,330 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: they've done it to themselves. 550 00:25:28,609 --> 00:25:29,619 Speaker 1: Yes. In 551 00:25:29,619 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 2: a way, it's like I never asked for the shelter 552 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: to 553 00:25:31,770 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 2: from a car park to my block. But you want 554 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:34,990 Speaker 2: to build it and now you don't build it properly 555 00:25:34,990 --> 00:25:36,109 Speaker 2: and there's a leak. So 556 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,740 Speaker 1: exactly you trump it up. So I will judge you 557 00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:39,510 Speaker 1: by that. Right. 558 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,290 Speaker 2: Right? So because of this emphasis on performance legitimacy and 559 00:25:43,290 --> 00:25:45,350 Speaker 2: that sort of trumping up of all these things have done. 560 00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: So that's the standard that people are going to hold 561 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,690 Speaker 2: them by. Of course there's the performance bit but there's 562 00:25:49,690 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: also the process bit, which is how do we get 563 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,629 Speaker 2: to decide and all that is left a bit understated. 564 00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:56,410 Speaker 2: Which comes to the point of okay, so are there 565 00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: ways we can decide better that comes with improving the system. 566 00:25:59,460 --> 00:26:02,450 Speaker 2: Elections are due by 2025? What's your gut feel? How 567 00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:03,780 Speaker 2: is that going to play out? When do you think 568 00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:06,860 Speaker 2: that's going to happen? Any ideas? Well, based on our system, 569 00:26:06,859 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: I think the PHP can call the election anytime from 570 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: now to 2025. So I think when they think that 571 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,270 Speaker 2: they can lock in a great advantage over the opposition, 572 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: that's really the key is not so much a date. Right. 573 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,659 Speaker 2: But the conditions while I 574 00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:22,859 Speaker 1: try not to make predictions because the cost of getting 575 00:26:22,859 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: it wrong is higher than the benefit of getting it right. 576 00:26:26,060 --> 00:26:28,669 Speaker 1: But what I would say is I'm interested to see 577 00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:32,459 Speaker 1: whether the handover takes place before the elections as a citizen. 578 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:35,370 Speaker 1: I want to hand over to be like, okay, but 579 00:26:35,369 --> 00:26:37,170 Speaker 1: if I were the P A P I wouldn't hand 580 00:26:37,170 --> 00:26:40,669 Speaker 1: over before the elections, I would win the election first 581 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,990 Speaker 1: and then hand over soon after the election. But as 582 00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:45,340 Speaker 1: a citizen, of course I want the PM one to 583 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: lead the party into the next election and then it'll 584 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,100 Speaker 1: be a mandate for other 585 00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 2: ones. Who knows PM lee may be listening to this podcast. 586 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 2: So take your suggestion in mine, 587 00:26:55,810 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: jay any last thoughts? This will be my second time 588 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 2: voting from my own habit of reading the manifestos of 589 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: different oppositions and the P A P. And also like 590 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 2: attending back then this was like online rallies during the 591 00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:10,290 Speaker 2: height of the pandemic. I think it's gonna be fun. 592 00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: It's exciting in that sense because this is really when 593 00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:14,940 Speaker 2: maybe for like a better phrasing, you know, we can 594 00:27:14,940 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: really add a lot, 595 00:27:15,859 --> 00:27:19,020 Speaker 2: we can really be clear on how we campaign and 596 00:27:19,020 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 2: how we make our voices heard when we vote. I 597 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,350 Speaker 2: think this would be a time that maybe there could 598 00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:28,100 Speaker 2: be big but important and meaningful political scene. Okay, well, 599 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:31,189 Speaker 2: time will tell. Right? I recall this quote by Eleanor 600 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,630 Speaker 2: Roosevelt who once said if life were predictable, it would 601 00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:36,409 Speaker 2: cease to be life and be without flavor. So it's 602 00:27:36,410 --> 00:27:39,380 Speaker 2: kind of the unknown. That makes it a bit interesting. 603 00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:42,149 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening and I hope you've enjoyed 604 00:27:42,150 --> 00:27:44,940 Speaker 2: the discussion and given you some food for thought and 605 00:27:44,940 --> 00:27:46,530 Speaker 2: if you have any views to share, please get in 606 00:27:46,530 --> 00:27:48,780 Speaker 2: touch with us as well. A big thank you to 607 00:27:48,780 --> 00:27:50,859 Speaker 2: my guest to all of you for listening and the 608 00:27:50,859 --> 00:27:54,659 Speaker 2: team behind this podcast is Jacqueline chan, Joanne, chan Danieli 609 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:57,990 Speaker 2: and Christina robert and I'm steven chair, your host signing 610 00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: off