1 00:00:03,259 --> 00:00:05,590 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,289 --> 00:00:11,529 Speaker 1: I kept thinking employees will expect consistency from me. They 3 00:00:11,539 --> 00:00:13,100 Speaker 1: will expect me to be able to perform at a 4 00:00:13,109 --> 00:00:15,329 Speaker 1: certain level no matter what. And if I then dip 5 00:00:15,340 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: into a depressive cycle, what happens, then at 6 00:00:17,319 --> 00:00:19,899 Speaker 2: which point, I'm curious, did you feel safe enough to 7 00:00:19,909 --> 00:00:20,309 Speaker 2: tell these 8 00:00:20,319 --> 00:00:20,889 Speaker 2: colleagues? 9 00:00:20,899 --> 00:00:23,090 Speaker 1: I think it took me at least a few months, 10 00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:24,750 Speaker 1: you know, 34 months and 11 00:00:25,030 --> 00:00:26,889 Speaker 1: I didn't realize I was doing back then. But now 12 00:00:26,899 --> 00:00:30,139 Speaker 1: looking back, you're looking for markers that demonstrate that this 13 00:00:30,149 --> 00:00:32,750 Speaker 1: is a safer place to make those disclosures in. 14 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:32,900 Speaker 2: I 15 00:00:32,909 --> 00:00:34,689 Speaker 2: think there's a lot of people who feel like, oh 16 00:00:34,889 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 2: individuals who are struggling with mental health, their career is gone. 17 00:00:37,598 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes 18 00:00:38,369 --> 00:00:40,528 Speaker 1: I will need to have my workload reduced and that's 19 00:00:40,540 --> 00:00:42,668 Speaker 1: when it hits and it's bad. And I really need that. 20 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,709 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe week two weeks to cope and 21 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,068 Speaker 1: deal with it. But that doesn't mean that sometimes my 22 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: workload cannot be inflated and increased. 23 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,139 Speaker 2: Hi, it's Tiffany and Gerald on the work it podcast. 24 00:00:54,150 --> 00:00:56,939 Speaker 2: We hope you've been finding our topics useful and using 25 00:00:56,950 --> 00:00:59,700 Speaker 2: some of the advice you're hearing here to make your 26 00:00:59,709 --> 00:01:02,770 Speaker 2: work life even better. Yes, Tiffany, I think a lot 27 00:01:02,779 --> 00:01:04,669 Speaker 2: of people have been telling me that we are talking 28 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,230 Speaker 2: about questions that they think about, but they're not asked. 29 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:09,419 Speaker 2: So I think we are really hitting the right point 30 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:10,699 Speaker 2: here on the show. So thank, 31 00:01:10,794 --> 00:01:13,444 Speaker 2: thank you all for your affirmation. It really encourages all 32 00:01:13,455 --> 00:01:15,894 Speaker 2: of us at the CN A team. So, Tiffany, what's 33 00:01:15,904 --> 00:01:18,654 Speaker 2: the A ma question that we'll be talking about today? Yeah. 34 00:01:18,665 --> 00:01:21,884 Speaker 2: Today's ask me anything question is on favoritism in the 35 00:01:21,894 --> 00:01:26,154 Speaker 2: workplace and how that's affecting your career prospects. So that 36 00:01:26,165 --> 00:01:28,724 Speaker 2: question came in from our listener s and we will 37 00:01:28,735 --> 00:01:31,885 Speaker 2: get to it after our main discussion. Now, Gerald, not 38 00:01:31,894 --> 00:01:34,894 Speaker 2: too long ago, we talked about mental health disclosure in 39 00:01:34,904 --> 00:01:37,764 Speaker 2: the workplace and we had a hr practitioner come on. 40 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 2: But I think you and I felt after that also 41 00:01:40,569 --> 00:01:43,050 Speaker 2: that we really wanted to hear from someone who's going 42 00:01:43,059 --> 00:01:45,589 Speaker 2: through it and who can tell us the ups and 43 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: downs of disclosing to colleagues or even your boss. Yeah. 44 00:01:49,410 --> 00:01:51,139 Speaker 2: And I think it's really hard to find a person 45 00:01:51,150 --> 00:01:54,290 Speaker 2: like that. It's not easy. Yeah. Brave, brave enough to 46 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: come and disclose on our show. We are so happy 47 00:01:56,449 --> 00:01:58,269 Speaker 2: that we have someone on the show with us today. 48 00:01:58,349 --> 00:02:01,459 Speaker 2: Let's welcome Edwin Chow. He's a compliance officer working in 49 00:02:02,105 --> 00:02:04,824 Speaker 2: and he's also an ambassador with Beyond the Label, a 50 00:02:04,834 --> 00:02:08,074 Speaker 2: movement which wants to promote social inclusion of people with 51 00:02:08,085 --> 00:02:10,695 Speaker 2: mental health conditions Edwin. Welcome to the podcast. 52 00:02:10,705 --> 00:02:13,324 Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting me here today. Very kind words. 53 00:02:13,354 --> 00:02:13,565 Speaker 2: We 54 00:02:13,574 --> 00:02:15,835 Speaker 2: are really very thankful that you are here sharing with 55 00:02:15,845 --> 00:02:18,774 Speaker 2: us your story and also some of the experiences you've 56 00:02:18,785 --> 00:02:21,384 Speaker 2: had in the workplace for listeners who don't know you 57 00:02:21,395 --> 00:02:24,073 Speaker 2: were diagnosed with depression and anxiety at the age of 58 00:02:24,085 --> 00:02:28,005 Speaker 2: 18 and then at 26 by then, you were already working, 59 00:02:28,065 --> 00:02:31,365 Speaker 2: you found out that you had post traumatic stress disorder. 60 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,229 Speaker 2: So let's talk about how did that all kind of happen? 61 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:34,860 Speaker 1: Well, 62 00:02:34,869 --> 00:02:37,580 Speaker 1: I went through some pretty bad experiences as a child 63 00:02:37,589 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: growing up that continued well into my adolescence and young adulthood. 64 00:02:41,649 --> 00:02:43,660 Speaker 1: But at that point in time when I was younger, 65 00:02:43,669 --> 00:02:46,109 Speaker 1: the kind of culture wasn't there the societal culture to 66 00:02:46,119 --> 00:02:48,829 Speaker 1: be open about your issues and then to seek professional 67 00:02:48,839 --> 00:02:51,508 Speaker 1: help and get a diagnosis, et cetera, et cetera. So 68 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,490 Speaker 1: that just meant that I 69 00:02:52,595 --> 00:02:55,335 Speaker 1: deal with it alone or without a proper structured kind 70 00:02:55,345 --> 00:02:59,413 Speaker 1: of support. Until my mid twenties, when I realized I 71 00:02:59,425 --> 00:03:01,964 Speaker 1: could no longer do it alone and I started fracturing, 72 00:03:01,975 --> 00:03:05,024 Speaker 1: started spring a little bit. And from there at around 73 00:03:05,035 --> 00:03:08,925 Speaker 1: my mid twenties with PTSD, it gets really bad, you know, nightmares, 74 00:03:08,934 --> 00:03:12,014 Speaker 1: you have anger that you can't control your flashbacks that 75 00:03:12,024 --> 00:03:13,414 Speaker 1: it just hits you very randomly. 76 00:03:13,679 --> 00:03:15,779 Speaker 1: And at a point in time, I decided, OK, I 77 00:03:15,788 --> 00:03:19,008 Speaker 1: probably need more specialized help. Ok. So I was overseas 78 00:03:19,020 --> 00:03:21,179 Speaker 1: at this point. In time, I went to a GP who, 79 00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:23,178 Speaker 1: after listening to me for a bit said, I think 80 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:24,460 Speaker 1: you might have PTSD. 81 00:03:24,750 --> 00:03:27,839 Speaker 1: Let me refer you to a PTSD specialist and then 82 00:03:27,850 --> 00:03:28,690 Speaker 1: we can work on it from 83 00:03:28,699 --> 00:03:29,029 Speaker 1: there. 84 00:03:29,059 --> 00:03:31,729 Speaker 2: Ok. So that was when you were in your twenties. 85 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: But what got you moving towards trying to get a 86 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:37,279 Speaker 2: diagnosis or to even find out what is going on 87 00:03:37,289 --> 00:03:38,649 Speaker 2: with you at the age of 18, 88 00:03:38,669 --> 00:03:38,809 Speaker 1: I 89 00:03:38,820 --> 00:03:42,300 Speaker 1: got quite lucky in that a teacher noticed something was 90 00:03:42,309 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: up and put me out of class, had a very 91 00:03:45,369 --> 00:03:46,850 Speaker 1: frank discussion with me and then went 92 00:03:47,089 --> 00:03:48,750 Speaker 1: if it's ok, I would like to refer you to 93 00:03:48,759 --> 00:03:51,979 Speaker 1: a school counselor. So that's my first experience of counseling. 94 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,190 Speaker 1: It tided me through school. But then when I left 95 00:03:54,199 --> 00:03:56,699 Speaker 1: school no more school counselor. But at least at this 96 00:03:56,710 --> 00:03:58,210 Speaker 1: point in time, I already had seen a counsel and 97 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: I thought to myself, ok, maybe next one is to 98 00:04:00,009 --> 00:04:02,139 Speaker 1: go find a public system. And then from there, it 99 00:04:02,149 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: was just ok, kept going through finding counselors. 100 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,029 Speaker 2: I see. So you were already open to the idea 101 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:09,210 Speaker 2: of seeking professional help because the resources were available for 102 00:04:09,220 --> 00:04:09,990 Speaker 2: you in school. 103 00:04:10,009 --> 00:04:12,490 Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right. And I did also do a 104 00:04:12,645 --> 00:04:15,615 Speaker 1: and counseling later on. So I think that really helped 105 00:04:15,625 --> 00:04:18,075 Speaker 1: because it taught me what counseling is supposed to do, 106 00:04:18,084 --> 00:04:20,553 Speaker 1: what to expect from counseling sessions. And also what's the 107 00:04:20,565 --> 00:04:23,484 Speaker 1: importance of early intervention when it comes to counseling. 108 00:04:23,494 --> 00:04:25,475 Speaker 2: But I would assume that when you are, let's say 109 00:04:25,484 --> 00:04:27,684 Speaker 2: in your teens, let's say 13 or 14 because you 110 00:04:27,695 --> 00:04:30,075 Speaker 2: were saying that this was born out of a childhood trauma. 111 00:04:30,084 --> 00:04:33,433 Speaker 2: So when you were younger, you probably were already facing 112 00:04:33,445 --> 00:04:36,934 Speaker 2: some emotional turmoil and it was like showing up physically 113 00:04:36,945 --> 00:04:37,875 Speaker 2: as well for you. 114 00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:40,368 Speaker 2: I'm sure that part of it is also anger. So 115 00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: how do you recognize that I need help? Because a 116 00:04:43,049 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: lot of times that anger will come through first, this 117 00:04:46,450 --> 00:04:47,209 Speaker 1: is slightly 118 00:04:47,220 --> 00:04:50,368 Speaker 2: tricky without having an adult force you to go for counseling. 119 00:04:50,420 --> 00:04:53,289 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think we see what we are able 120 00:04:53,299 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: to believe exists for instance. So when I was 121 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,869 Speaker 1: younger and people didn't really like to talk about mental 122 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:00,700 Speaker 1: health or think that it might be a mental health reason, 123 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,419 Speaker 1: it ends up being a moral failure more than anything else. 124 00:05:03,428 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: So it's not that you are a difficult child if 125 00:05:05,488 --> 00:05:08,399 Speaker 1: you're sleeping too much or you're not depressed, you're lazy. 126 00:05:08,428 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: If you're having these anger problems, it's not because you 127 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:14,230 Speaker 1: might have trauma. It's because you are an angry, violent person, etcetera, etcetera. 128 00:05:14,809 --> 00:05:16,910 Speaker 1: And you go through that kind of criticism for a 129 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: while until someone finally steps in who is a little 130 00:05:19,570 --> 00:05:21,950 Speaker 1: bit more enlightened, I guess on this who goes, I 131 00:05:21,959 --> 00:05:23,220 Speaker 1: think it might be something else 132 00:05:23,660 --> 00:05:25,130 Speaker 1: and they have that conversation with you and going, I 133 00:05:25,140 --> 00:05:27,070 Speaker 1: think it might be something else. Would you be ok 134 00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:29,799 Speaker 1: with me finding help for you. And then at that 135 00:05:29,809 --> 00:05:32,238 Speaker 1: point I went ok, I'll try something different. I guess 136 00:05:32,649 --> 00:05:34,630 Speaker 2: you were saying you were sleeping quite a bit 137 00:05:34,899 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 2: and why is sleeping quite a bit one of the 138 00:05:36,850 --> 00:05:38,799 Speaker 2: symptoms of struggling with mental 139 00:05:38,809 --> 00:05:39,149 Speaker 2: health? 140 00:05:39,209 --> 00:05:41,230 Speaker 1: So at that point in time, for myself, it was 141 00:05:41,238 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: a mixture of both anxiety and depression on the depression side. 142 00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: That's where it can show up as either a lack 143 00:05:46,928 --> 00:05:50,070 Speaker 1: of sleep or sleeping more than you normally would. It 144 00:05:50,079 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: can show up as a inability to do very basic tasks. 145 00:05:53,329 --> 00:05:55,519 Speaker 1: So one of the worst bouts of depression I had, 146 00:05:55,529 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't think I got out of bed for three 147 00:05:57,010 --> 00:05:58,730 Speaker 1: days in a row. I didn't brush 148 00:05:58,795 --> 00:06:01,135 Speaker 1: my teeth for three days in a row with things 149 00:06:01,145 --> 00:06:04,525 Speaker 1: like the anxiety you're afraid of leaving the house, you 150 00:06:04,536 --> 00:06:08,135 Speaker 1: get panic attacks. So panic attacks is where you start hyperventilating. 151 00:06:08,145 --> 00:06:09,835 Speaker 1: You think it's the end of the world, you might 152 00:06:09,846 --> 00:06:12,775 Speaker 1: die soon. Doom and gloom. I was taking a bus 153 00:06:12,786 --> 00:06:14,505 Speaker 1: from the west to the east and I had a 154 00:06:14,515 --> 00:06:17,365 Speaker 1: panic attack on the bus. So it's also not appropriate 155 00:06:17,376 --> 00:06:20,126 Speaker 1: to the situation in that sense. Nothing about taking a 156 00:06:20,135 --> 00:06:22,036 Speaker 1: bus should have stressed me out that much, but it 157 00:06:22,045 --> 00:06:22,425 Speaker 1: did 158 00:06:22,690 --> 00:06:24,462 Speaker 2: I see. So a lot of the challenges that you 159 00:06:24,471 --> 00:06:27,161 Speaker 2: face were from childhood and then as you progress into 160 00:06:27,171 --> 00:06:29,712 Speaker 2: the workplace in between, you already kind of sought help 161 00:06:29,721 --> 00:06:32,141 Speaker 2: along the way and did that make you more ready 162 00:06:32,152 --> 00:06:34,601 Speaker 2: to enter the workplace or was entering the workplace a 163 00:06:34,611 --> 00:06:37,101 Speaker 2: whole new environment and created new challenges for you. 164 00:06:37,111 --> 00:06:37,712 Speaker 1: A mixture of 165 00:06:37,721 --> 00:06:40,582 Speaker 1: both. I was ready in the sense that I knew 166 00:06:40,592 --> 00:06:43,131 Speaker 1: what might happen to me, I might slip into a 167 00:06:43,141 --> 00:06:46,471 Speaker 1: very deep depression, I might slip into panic attacks and anxiety. 168 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,109 Speaker 1: And I was prepared also in the sense that I 169 00:06:49,119 --> 00:06:52,179 Speaker 1: knew that I had certain coping mechanisms that might help 170 00:06:52,190 --> 00:06:54,890 Speaker 1: certain strategies I could take. But the part that I 171 00:06:54,899 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: was still scared about was every time before that when 172 00:06:58,170 --> 00:07:00,019 Speaker 1: I slipped into another bout of depression, 173 00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:03,089 Speaker 1: if you're in school can just step back for a 174 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:05,809 Speaker 1: little bit. You don't try as hard, your grades slip 175 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:07,450 Speaker 1: but you know, you're still passing because it's 176 00:07:07,459 --> 00:07:09,540 Speaker 2: on you. Nobody else is affected. 177 00:07:09,549 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. So all that happens is that your grade 178 00:07:11,769 --> 00:07:13,730 Speaker 1: drops a little bit, you lose two letter grades. But 179 00:07:13,739 --> 00:07:16,390 Speaker 1: my fear was when I go into the workplace and 180 00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:19,910 Speaker 1: I kept thinking employers will expect consistency from me. They 181 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: will expect me to be able to perform at a 182 00:07:21,489 --> 00:07:23,660 Speaker 1: certain level no matter what. And if I then dip 183 00:07:23,670 --> 00:07:25,529 Speaker 1: into a depressive cycle, what happens then, 184 00:07:26,109 --> 00:07:28,649 Speaker 2: so you went into the workplace knowing that having that 185 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:30,950 Speaker 2: caution in your mind and how did you actually play 186 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:32,179 Speaker 2: out in the workplace? So 187 00:07:32,190 --> 00:07:34,299 Speaker 1: I've been through a few workplaces at this point in time, 188 00:07:34,730 --> 00:07:37,049 Speaker 1: the very first workplace, I went in with that fear. 189 00:07:37,059 --> 00:07:38,940 Speaker 1: So I had a constant fear thinking, ok, it's a 190 00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:40,690 Speaker 1: matter of time before I slip back into a very 191 00:07:40,700 --> 00:07:43,820 Speaker 1: bad depression. And what happened there was, I had a 192 00:07:43,829 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: few trusted friends and colleagues that I could tell this 193 00:07:46,170 --> 00:07:46,779 Speaker 1: might happen. 194 00:07:47,149 --> 00:07:49,899 Speaker 1: And because they were advocates, they would then point me 195 00:07:49,910 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: to actually, in this workplace, we have policies, we have 196 00:07:53,209 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: resources and the culture here is that we recognize that 197 00:07:56,489 --> 00:07:59,049 Speaker 1: everyone's going to go through things. So what we need 198 00:07:59,059 --> 00:08:01,329 Speaker 1: from you is to let us know when something might 199 00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: be happening soon so we can then step in and 200 00:08:03,209 --> 00:08:04,269 Speaker 1: help you. That 201 00:08:04,279 --> 00:08:07,670 Speaker 2: is a very, very supportive environment. So you're saying that 202 00:08:07,679 --> 00:08:10,910 Speaker 2: even from your first job, you decided to be very 203 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,369 Speaker 2: transparent and say that this is me, this is what 204 00:08:13,380 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 2: I'm struggling with. 205 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: Not 206 00:08:14,859 --> 00:08:17,829 Speaker 1: fully because I did keep it hidden from my bosses 207 00:08:17,839 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: at 208 00:08:17,929 --> 00:08:19,619 Speaker 2: first. But you told your closer 209 00:08:19,630 --> 00:08:20,079 Speaker 2: colleagues, 210 00:08:20,089 --> 00:08:22,070 Speaker 1: my closer colleagues. So we went out for lunch and 211 00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:23,790 Speaker 1: then I finally went, oh I went through this as 212 00:08:23,799 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: a child. I'm still going through this now and the 213 00:08:25,730 --> 00:08:27,829 Speaker 1: college just went. Yeah, me too. I've been through some 214 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:28,829 Speaker 1: of this before, but 215 00:08:28,839 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: at which point, I'm curious, did you feel safe enough 216 00:08:31,170 --> 00:08:33,219 Speaker 2: to tell these colleagues? I mean, surely it's not a 217 00:08:33,229 --> 00:08:35,969 Speaker 2: conversation you will have in your, I don't know, first 218 00:08:35,979 --> 00:08:37,909 Speaker 2: week of work because you're getting to know each other. 219 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, absolutely. I think it took me at least 220 00:08:40,010 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: a few months, 34 months. And 221 00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:44,530 Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't realize I was doing back then, 222 00:08:44,539 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: but now looking back, you're looking for markers that demonstrate 223 00:08:47,729 --> 00:08:50,599 Speaker 1: that this is a safer place to make those disclosures in. 224 00:08:50,609 --> 00:08:54,369 Speaker 1: Do they have policies in place where it is clear, 225 00:08:54,380 --> 00:08:57,270 Speaker 1: your confidentiality will be protected? But it's clear that you 226 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,718 Speaker 1: cannot be discriminated for your conditions, do they then have 227 00:09:00,729 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: resources to support you if you need the support? So 228 00:09:03,010 --> 00:09:04,119 Speaker 1: the resources can look like 229 00:09:04,349 --> 00:09:06,569 Speaker 1: flexible leave policies to let you take a couple of 230 00:09:06,580 --> 00:09:09,189 Speaker 1: days off, no questions asked without any MC, that kind 231 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,289 Speaker 1: of thing. Or it could be access to a employee 232 00:09:12,299 --> 00:09:15,449 Speaker 1: assistance program, external providers where can step in to help. 233 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:17,359 Speaker 1: The next one after that was what is the culture 234 00:09:17,369 --> 00:09:19,020 Speaker 1: in this workplace? So you can have policies and you 235 00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:19,929 Speaker 1: can have resources. But 236 00:09:20,005 --> 00:09:23,215 Speaker 1: if everyone working there doesn't think it's a big deal, 237 00:09:23,224 --> 00:09:25,525 Speaker 1: then the policies and resources are just fluff, they end 238 00:09:25,534 --> 00:09:28,515 Speaker 1: up being fluff. So you then monitor and you see 239 00:09:28,525 --> 00:09:32,164 Speaker 1: the other teams. Do they talk about this openly? The seniors, 240 00:09:32,174 --> 00:09:35,525 Speaker 1: the leaders are they open about their own struggles, right? Because, 241 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,580 Speaker 1: and this might be a terrible thing to say. It's 242 00:09:37,590 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 1: a lot easier to discriminate against a low level employee 243 00:09:40,250 --> 00:09:41,409 Speaker 1: versus the leader 244 00:09:41,909 --> 00:09:44,380 Speaker 2: because there's the power dynamics there, nobody is going to 245 00:09:44,390 --> 00:09:46,950 Speaker 2: question the leader. They might talk about them behind their backs. 246 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,609 Speaker 2: But nobody is going to outrightly tell the leader you 247 00:09:49,619 --> 00:09:50,799 Speaker 2: are not performing well. Yeah. 248 00:09:50,809 --> 00:09:52,689 Speaker 1: And if your boss is already there and they are 249 00:09:52,700 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: very open about the mental conditions, you know that ok, 250 00:09:54,969 --> 00:09:58,010 Speaker 1: in this workplace, my promotion chances won't be curtailed because 251 00:09:58,020 --> 00:09:59,630 Speaker 1: of my condition. I mean that leader is up in 252 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:00,580 Speaker 1: that position already. 253 00:10:01,010 --> 00:10:03,380 Speaker 1: But after that, beyond the culture, it still comes down 254 00:10:03,390 --> 00:10:05,349 Speaker 1: to your manager, you can have all this in place. 255 00:10:05,359 --> 00:10:06,950 Speaker 1: And if your manager doesn't care, it will be a 256 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: lot harder fight for you. Sure, the policies might be there. 257 00:10:09,330 --> 00:10:11,380 Speaker 1: But if I raise a hr case now I'm thinking, oh, 258 00:10:11,390 --> 00:10:14,020 Speaker 1: will there be retaliation against me because I've raised it 259 00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:16,979 Speaker 1: against my manager for instance. Yeah, but it also works 260 00:10:16,989 --> 00:10:18,709 Speaker 1: the other way around. I feel, let's say the company 261 00:10:18,719 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: has no policies, no resources in the culture is bad. 262 00:10:20,890 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: But if your manager cares 263 00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:25,250 Speaker 1: and they're willing to put their neck out to, I guess, 264 00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:27,780 Speaker 1: go against all of the stigma in the workplace, you 265 00:10:27,789 --> 00:10:29,030 Speaker 1: will be protected anyway. 266 00:10:29,900 --> 00:10:30,090 Speaker 2: I 267 00:10:30,099 --> 00:10:32,159 Speaker 2: really love what you are saying here and I want 268 00:10:32,169 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: to take you back to a point earlier on that 269 00:10:34,210 --> 00:10:37,510 Speaker 2: you mentioned about your colleagues and you felt safe enough 270 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,229 Speaker 2: after a few months to disclose to them. Can you 271 00:10:40,239 --> 00:10:42,929 Speaker 2: maybe share what are some of these markers that you've 272 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:46,849 Speaker 2: noticed from your colleagues that helped you to feel safe 273 00:10:46,859 --> 00:10:48,209 Speaker 2: enough for you to share? I think 274 00:10:48,219 --> 00:10:50,429 Speaker 1: a very easy way which I myself have tried to 275 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:51,070 Speaker 1: do lately. 276 00:10:51,340 --> 00:10:54,549 Speaker 1: This one obviously talk about my own struggles. If I 277 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: have struggles and this is how I deal with it, 278 00:10:56,289 --> 00:10:58,299 Speaker 1: it's safe for them to tell me about it. Another 279 00:10:58,309 --> 00:11:00,859 Speaker 1: way could be to mention your own close friend or 280 00:11:00,869 --> 00:11:02,809 Speaker 1: your own family members. And you go, oh, my family 281 00:11:02,820 --> 00:11:06,359 Speaker 1: member is going through this and how you talk about them. 282 00:11:06,369 --> 00:11:09,598 Speaker 1: Demonstrates to anyone who's listening, what your attitudes are true. 283 00:11:09,609 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: If you're talking about a family member, oh, my family 284 00:11:11,409 --> 00:11:13,478 Speaker 1: is depressed but you know, they see one, they're useless 285 00:11:13,489 --> 00:11:14,239 Speaker 1: and anything. Ok, 286 00:11:14,627 --> 00:11:17,006 Speaker 1: I'll listen and go, I shouldn't probably tell you anything. 287 00:11:17,017 --> 00:11:18,776 Speaker 1: That's true. But if they're telling me to go, my 288 00:11:18,785 --> 00:11:20,976 Speaker 1: family member is going through this, I'm really concerned for them. 289 00:11:20,986 --> 00:11:22,936 Speaker 1: We've tried getting into this, this help, that, help this 290 00:11:23,067 --> 00:11:25,317 Speaker 1: and we're happy to see that there is improvement. They're 291 00:11:25,327 --> 00:11:27,997 Speaker 1: getting better. They'll be happier. You go. Ok. This person 292 00:11:28,006 --> 00:11:29,356 Speaker 1: is probably safe for me to talk to 293 00:11:29,367 --> 00:11:29,535 Speaker 1: about it. 294 00:11:29,546 --> 00:11:31,785 Speaker 2: Very good point. Yeah. Yeah, I love what Ein is 295 00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:34,497 Speaker 2: sharing with us. So many markers, so many good points 296 00:11:34,506 --> 00:11:36,937 Speaker 2: for everyone. Whether you are going through this yourself or 297 00:11:36,947 --> 00:11:37,216 Speaker 2: whether you, 298 00:11:37,294 --> 00:11:40,823 Speaker 2: your colleague and you suspect someone in the team is struggling, right? 299 00:11:40,833 --> 00:11:42,554 Speaker 2: And there's so much that you can learn from Edwin 300 00:11:42,564 --> 00:11:44,403 Speaker 2: based on what he said, how does it affect your 301 00:11:44,414 --> 00:11:46,754 Speaker 2: choice of work? Like when you're looking for a job, 302 00:11:46,763 --> 00:11:49,333 Speaker 2: let's say you are looking for a new employer, some 303 00:11:49,343 --> 00:11:53,012 Speaker 2: of these things you can't tell before entering the job. Right. Yeah. Again, 304 00:11:53,023 --> 00:11:54,973 Speaker 2: like we say, it can be quite tokenism. They can 305 00:11:54,984 --> 00:11:57,273 Speaker 2: put it on their website and say that we accept 306 00:11:57,283 --> 00:12:00,164 Speaker 2: people of different race, different national, 307 00:12:00,401 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 2: even with mental health issues, they can say that. But 308 00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:05,091 Speaker 2: what if that's only on a policy level? You can't 309 00:12:05,101 --> 00:12:07,231 Speaker 2: really vet a company. So what do you look out for? 310 00:12:07,241 --> 00:12:09,281 Speaker 2: What do you do even in a job interview? What 311 00:12:09,291 --> 00:12:10,221 Speaker 2: kind of questions would 312 00:12:10,231 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 2: you ask 313 00:12:10,770 --> 00:12:13,059 Speaker 1: in a job interview? That's a bit more difficult. I've 314 00:12:13,070 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: never made the disclosures during my job interview because I 315 00:12:16,210 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: don't have a gauge of whether it will be safe 316 00:12:17,770 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: for me to do it there. I've always waited 34 317 00:12:20,051 --> 00:12:22,611 Speaker 1: months down the line when I can actually study what's 318 00:12:22,620 --> 00:12:23,170 Speaker 1: going on. 319 00:12:23,390 --> 00:12:25,969 Speaker 1: The best solution I've had so far is if the 320 00:12:25,979 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: place doesn't have it, you have to just leave, you 321 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:30,770 Speaker 1: either try to fight it or you leave, but it's 322 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: a bit of a catch 22 right? If I'm super depressed, 323 00:12:33,299 --> 00:12:35,010 Speaker 1: it's going to be very difficult for me to then 324 00:12:35,020 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: go for more interviews and apply for more places. 325 00:12:37,409 --> 00:12:39,429 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's a roll of the dice at 326 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:40,250 Speaker 2: the start, right? 327 00:12:40,465 --> 00:12:42,794 Speaker 2: You just have to take the gamble that this company 328 00:12:42,804 --> 00:12:47,614 Speaker 2: is very progressive and supportive. So tell us this company 329 00:12:47,625 --> 00:12:49,414 Speaker 2: that you are at right now. How did you have 330 00:12:49,424 --> 00:12:52,155 Speaker 2: that conversation with your current manager. So 331 00:12:52,164 --> 00:12:52,284 Speaker 1: the 332 00:12:52,294 --> 00:12:55,093 Speaker 1: first manager that I made the disclosure to, I actually 333 00:12:55,104 --> 00:12:56,744 Speaker 1: have a lot of respect for him for how he 334 00:12:56,755 --> 00:12:59,325 Speaker 1: handled it. At the time, I was struggling with a 335 00:12:59,335 --> 00:13:04,234 Speaker 1: diagnosis of bipolar. It was fairly new. I'm still trying 336 00:13:04,244 --> 00:13:06,284 Speaker 1: to figure out whether that's a diagnosis that will stick 337 00:13:06,294 --> 00:13:07,223 Speaker 1: for me. But at that point in time, I was 338 00:13:07,234 --> 00:13:08,275 Speaker 1: struggling with that diagnosis. 339 00:13:08,489 --> 00:13:10,270 Speaker 1: So I explained to him that I think I might 340 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,789 Speaker 1: be diagnosed with bipolar. And his question, first question to 341 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: me was what is that? So he didn't know what 342 00:13:15,450 --> 00:13:16,219 Speaker 1: it was at all, 343 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,219 Speaker 1: but what he did after that was OK, tell me, 344 00:13:19,229 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: teach me about what bipolar is what it looks like. 345 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,219 Speaker 1: And then you move on to what does bipolar like 346 00:13:24,229 --> 00:13:27,830 Speaker 1: for you specifically? How does it affect you when it hits? Where, 347 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,619 Speaker 1: how often will it hit? What will you look like 348 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:32,510 Speaker 1: when it hits and what will you need when it hits? 349 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,270 Speaker 1: And then there was a negotiation then to say I 350 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,819 Speaker 1: might need this and he goes ok, I will try 351 00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:38,460 Speaker 1: my best for that. I don't think I'll be able 352 00:13:38,469 --> 00:13:40,289 Speaker 1: to provide that much for you, but I will do 353 00:13:40,299 --> 00:13:42,579 Speaker 1: my best to try. At least knowing that you can 354 00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:44,340 Speaker 1: work towards a compromise, helps a lot. 355 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,650 Speaker 1: He then went on to say thank you for telling 356 00:13:46,659 --> 00:13:48,750 Speaker 1: me about this to get you the support that you need. 357 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: I will have to tell our bosses another level up. 358 00:13:51,450 --> 00:13:53,429 Speaker 1: I might also have to tell people from other functions 359 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,539 Speaker 1: that we work with. But I'm telling them this information 360 00:13:56,549 --> 00:13:59,260 Speaker 1: so that when you do need to activate the contingencies, 361 00:13:59,270 --> 00:14:02,159 Speaker 1: they already know and they're prepared in their own way 362 00:14:02,169 --> 00:14:04,739 Speaker 1: to support it. Even then he asked for my permission 363 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:07,020 Speaker 1: and the next bit was then I can do all 364 00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:08,500 Speaker 1: this for you, but I also need you to do 365 00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:10,380 Speaker 1: something for me. OK, which is, 366 00:14:10,469 --> 00:14:13,250 Speaker 1: are you seeking professional help? Are you making the changes 367 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:15,890 Speaker 1: in your life to manage your own conditions? And I 368 00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:18,569 Speaker 1: told him I am now going for consults. I was 369 00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:21,849 Speaker 1: going down to I mh every quarter and he went, ok, 370 00:14:21,859 --> 00:14:25,010 Speaker 1: that's fine. I'm happy that you're making those appointments anytime 371 00:14:25,020 --> 00:14:27,210 Speaker 1: you need to go, just take the leave. No questions asked. 372 00:14:27,419 --> 00:14:30,890 Speaker 2: Your boss didn't know what it was, but he's asking 373 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,890 Speaker 2: the right questions. He's saying, what do you need? What 374 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,969 Speaker 2: does it look like when you are going through it 375 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: and also turning it back and saying that, ok, while 376 00:14:38,969 --> 00:14:41,150 Speaker 2: we have all these support networks for you and all 377 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:44,929 Speaker 2: these resources for you here is where your responsibility comes in. 378 00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:47,489 Speaker 2: You need to also take ownership of this. And it's 379 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: not just saying, oh, ok, I'm not going to treat 380 00:14:49,330 --> 00:14:52,229 Speaker 2: you like something very precious and everybody is going to 381 00:14:52,239 --> 00:14:54,770 Speaker 2: step around you like on eggshells because I think that's 382 00:14:54,780 --> 00:14:56,700 Speaker 2: the last thing you want. Right? Is for everybody to 383 00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:58,609 Speaker 2: treat you as this glass figurine 384 00:14:58,890 --> 00:15:01,830 Speaker 2: that in any moment you might drop and shatter and 385 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:02,869 Speaker 2: it's everybody's fault. 386 00:15:02,890 --> 00:15:05,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that is indeed a fear and 387 00:15:05,250 --> 00:15:06,830 Speaker 1: also something that I have experienced as well when I 388 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,210 Speaker 1: made the disclosures people then go, oh, I'm so sorry. 389 00:15:09,219 --> 00:15:11,289 Speaker 1: And you can feel the sympathy and pity and you go, 390 00:15:11,299 --> 00:15:13,549 Speaker 1: you know, I'm still ok on a day to day basis, 391 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:14,549 Speaker 1: I can, I'm doing fine. 392 00:15:14,859 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: One of the worst things I thought he could have 393 00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:19,380 Speaker 1: done would be to immediately cut my workload and say, ok, 394 00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:21,460 Speaker 1: you're too fragile. You can't handle anything. I'm going to 395 00:15:21,469 --> 00:15:23,450 Speaker 1: give you less work to do because less work to 396 00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: do while it might sound fun and interesting. Right. Also 397 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:31,020 Speaker 1: just means less opportunities, less chance for further growth and development. 398 00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: It also means that they now maybe don't trust you 399 00:15:32,849 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: to be able to do things. Exactly. So, it's a 400 00:15:35,090 --> 00:15:37,239 Speaker 1: most sensitive conversation I feel where, 401 00:15:37,609 --> 00:15:40,309 Speaker 1: yes, sometimes I will need to have my workload reduced 402 00:15:40,429 --> 00:15:42,039 Speaker 1: and that's when it hits and it's bad. And I 403 00:15:42,049 --> 00:15:44,380 Speaker 1: really need that. I don't know, maybe week two weeks 404 00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:46,489 Speaker 1: to cope and deal with it. But that doesn't mean 405 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: that sometimes my workload cannot be inflated and increased on 406 00:15:49,650 --> 00:15:52,039 Speaker 1: a good month. Exactly. On the good days, I can 407 00:15:52,049 --> 00:15:54,010 Speaker 1: be pushed past my limits. I do have my coping 408 00:15:54,020 --> 00:15:57,299 Speaker 1: mechanisms and I appreciate actually having the opportunity to show 409 00:15:57,309 --> 00:15:59,570 Speaker 1: that I'm able to perform if I'm supported. Wow, 410 00:15:59,580 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: you've really shown us how you're going beyond the label, right? 411 00:16:02,065 --> 00:16:05,775 Speaker 2: Really, literally, literally by putting yourself out there. But at 412 00:16:05,784 --> 00:16:08,125 Speaker 2: the same time, working with a good boss, a good 413 00:16:08,135 --> 00:16:11,784 Speaker 2: manager who was able to have that constructive conversation with 414 00:16:11,794 --> 00:16:14,125 Speaker 2: you about what to do and how to keep things 415 00:16:14,135 --> 00:16:17,155 Speaker 2: moving along. Not like derail the plans that you have 416 00:16:17,164 --> 00:16:19,525 Speaker 2: been doing in the company. And I'm so glad that 417 00:16:19,534 --> 00:16:21,525 Speaker 2: also hear that you brought at this point where 418 00:16:21,859 --> 00:16:24,239 Speaker 2: you are also concerned about your career progression. I think 419 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:26,539 Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who feel like oh individuals 420 00:16:26,549 --> 00:16:28,479 Speaker 2: who are struggling mental health, their career is gone or 421 00:16:28,489 --> 00:16:30,599 Speaker 2: they shouldn't think about career and they need to manage 422 00:16:30,609 --> 00:16:33,359 Speaker 2: their expectations that they are never going to have the 423 00:16:33,369 --> 00:16:36,049 Speaker 2: same career as other people. Yeah, it's not true. And 424 00:16:36,059 --> 00:16:38,239 Speaker 2: I think what Ein showed us is that, hey, look, 425 00:16:38,250 --> 00:16:40,950 Speaker 2: I know I have some challenges but that doesn't stop 426 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,409 Speaker 2: me from having aspirations, right? Or thinking about my future 427 00:16:44,419 --> 00:16:46,169 Speaker 2: and how far I want to climb in the organization, 428 00:16:46,179 --> 00:16:47,559 Speaker 2: how far I want to grow as a person, 429 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:50,419 Speaker 2: it doesn't stop him and we shouldn't put such limitations 430 00:16:50,429 --> 00:16:54,369 Speaker 2: on people. Yeah, your challenges cannot be your limitations because 431 00:16:54,380 --> 00:16:55,679 Speaker 2: as what Edwin mentioned, 432 00:16:55,989 --> 00:16:58,390 Speaker 2: he gets challenged, of course, you know, maybe he's out 433 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,270 Speaker 2: of action for one or two weeks. But on other weeks, 434 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,979 Speaker 2: like he said, he can be pushed even beyond his limits. 435 00:17:03,989 --> 00:17:06,729 Speaker 2: So if you look at it from a long term perspective, 436 00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:11,540 Speaker 2: he is actually as efficient, high quality employee as the 437 00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 2: next person sitting beside him. And I will say I 438 00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:16,389 Speaker 2: will even add that perhaps even more than employees who 439 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,900 Speaker 2: that's true are going through things, but they don't work 440 00:17:18,910 --> 00:17:20,930 Speaker 2: on things. That's true because he's so aware. 441 00:17:21,102 --> 00:17:24,291 Speaker 2: He is so exactly. He's proactive in seeking help. He's 442 00:17:24,302 --> 00:17:26,802 Speaker 2: proactive in asking for advice. He knows he has a 443 00:17:26,811 --> 00:17:29,541 Speaker 2: council of people around him as a supportive network. These 444 00:17:29,552 --> 00:17:32,212 Speaker 2: are really good markers right to help someone thrive in 445 00:17:32,222 --> 00:17:35,962 Speaker 2: the workplace. And also we know recovery is not linear, right? 446 00:17:35,972 --> 00:17:38,521 Speaker 2: I mean, there are days where you feel that you 447 00:17:38,531 --> 00:17:41,482 Speaker 2: are doing very well, you're doing your regular check ins 448 00:17:41,491 --> 00:17:45,202 Speaker 2: with your therapist and then there will be triggers that 449 00:17:45,212 --> 00:17:45,972 Speaker 2: would happen, 450 00:17:46,076 --> 00:17:49,816 Speaker 2: then that sends you down into a spiral again. Have 451 00:17:49,826 --> 00:17:52,615 Speaker 2: you identified what are some of these triggers? And if 452 00:17:52,625 --> 00:17:55,715 Speaker 2: they happen while you're in a workplace, what do you do? 453 00:17:56,446 --> 00:17:58,014 Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to go back briefly to the 454 00:17:58,026 --> 00:18:00,975 Speaker 1: limitations bit in that. Yes, absolutely. Just because you have 455 00:18:00,984 --> 00:18:02,965 Speaker 1: a condition doesn't mean that you have to be limited 456 00:18:02,975 --> 00:18:05,546 Speaker 1: in what you can go for. But it could also 457 00:18:05,556 --> 00:18:07,975 Speaker 1: mean that how you go about doing it will be different. 458 00:18:07,984 --> 00:18:10,345 Speaker 1: It might either take a longer time or you try 459 00:18:10,355 --> 00:18:11,015 Speaker 1: a different method. 460 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:13,609 Speaker 1: So yes, I still do get triggers in the workplace 461 00:18:13,619 --> 00:18:16,689 Speaker 1: these days. And there are practical steps that I picked 462 00:18:16,699 --> 00:18:20,579 Speaker 1: up from counseling, for example, breathing exercises, grounding exercises, some 463 00:18:20,589 --> 00:18:23,339 Speaker 1: of the more commonly heard ones disconnecting from your station 464 00:18:23,349 --> 00:18:25,129 Speaker 1: and just going for a 10 minute walk, just go 465 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:27,429 Speaker 1: and buy a copy or something. Pull out one of 466 00:18:27,439 --> 00:18:29,500 Speaker 1: your friends if they're free and like a, I need 467 00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:31,979 Speaker 1: someone to talk to for a little bit, basically, physically 468 00:18:31,989 --> 00:18:35,050 Speaker 1: remove yourself from the space that is causing that anguish 469 00:18:35,170 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: at the moment on a more I guess, cognitive front, 470 00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: like how you think about it is 471 00:18:39,979 --> 00:18:42,839 Speaker 1: recovery isn't linear. There will be days that you will 472 00:18:42,849 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: slip and fall and it's more about recognizing that it's 473 00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:48,469 Speaker 1: not a matter of if it's just a matter of when, OK, 474 00:18:48,569 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: so when it does happen, it doesn't feel like the 475 00:18:50,890 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: end of the world, it doesn't feel like a massive 476 00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:54,479 Speaker 1: failure in your end. You just go OK. This is 477 00:18:54,489 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: one of the bad days that I'm having, but a 478 00:18:56,410 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: good day is one sleep away. 479 00:18:57,775 --> 00:18:59,464 Speaker 1: So I just need to survive until the sleep. 480 00:18:59,505 --> 00:18:59,675 Speaker 2: That's 481 00:18:59,685 --> 00:19:02,295 Speaker 2: actually a very good point that you've just brought up. 482 00:19:02,305 --> 00:19:03,864 Speaker 2: I'm going to sleep and then I'm going to wake 483 00:19:03,875 --> 00:19:06,875 Speaker 2: up and I might actually be a new person again. Yeah. 484 00:19:06,885 --> 00:19:09,354 Speaker 1: And you can draw all of the learnings that you've 485 00:19:09,364 --> 00:19:11,754 Speaker 1: had and all of the experiences and then try to 486 00:19:11,765 --> 00:19:14,614 Speaker 1: tap into your own strength. I think the word resilience 487 00:19:14,625 --> 00:19:17,015 Speaker 1: gets thrown out a lot. But there is more to 488 00:19:17,025 --> 00:19:21,024 Speaker 1: resilience than just that individual personal capability. And on some days, 489 00:19:21,035 --> 00:19:23,464 Speaker 1: I recognize that I just do not have the strength 490 00:19:23,474 --> 00:19:24,954 Speaker 1: in me today to pull through. 491 00:19:25,339 --> 00:19:28,489 Speaker 1: And on days like that, I just default to learning 492 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,319 Speaker 1: strength from my friends and colleagues from me. I might go, 493 00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:34,349 Speaker 1: I'm really trying, but I'm struggling with this thing today. 494 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: Can you help step in for me and maybe help 495 00:19:36,569 --> 00:19:38,709 Speaker 1: me with this or help me have this conversation with 496 00:19:38,719 --> 00:19:41,829 Speaker 1: someone else? And that's OK. That's perfectly fine to need 497 00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:44,670 Speaker 1: to rely on other people. So in return, what I 498 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: also try to do is I feel like I have 499 00:19:46,489 --> 00:19:49,448 Speaker 1: a very strong obligation to then turn around and loan 500 00:19:49,459 --> 00:19:52,020 Speaker 1: that strength back to other people on good days. Yeah, 501 00:19:52,030 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: when you can, when you have an access, when you're 502 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:55,839 Speaker 1: feeling well, they say, and you notice someone in the 503 00:19:55,849 --> 00:19:56,630 Speaker 1: workplace is 504 00:19:56,719 --> 00:19:59,708 Speaker 1: struggling step in. Is there anything I can help handle 505 00:19:59,719 --> 00:20:02,670 Speaker 1: for you today? And I think it helps build that 506 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,459 Speaker 1: culture where you're already looking out for other people and 507 00:20:05,469 --> 00:20:07,698 Speaker 1: because you've taken this step, they are now also going 508 00:20:07,709 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: to try and look out for you in return. Yeah, 509 00:20:09,369 --> 00:20:11,449 Speaker 1: I mean, not in a very transactional. I do this 510 00:20:11,459 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: for you. That's what you 511 00:20:12,709 --> 00:20:15,469 Speaker 2: mean. Yeah, I mean, it honestly sounds like the flexi 512 00:20:15,489 --> 00:20:18,339 Speaker 2: work arrangements that we keep talking about because I've talked 513 00:20:18,349 --> 00:20:20,579 Speaker 2: about this on this podcast that as a mom myself. 514 00:20:20,589 --> 00:20:21,579 Speaker 2: I mean, there are days where 515 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,479 Speaker 2: I need to be called away from work because I 516 00:20:24,489 --> 00:20:27,089 Speaker 2: have a sick child today is one of those days 517 00:20:27,589 --> 00:20:30,438 Speaker 2: and I reached out to my colleagues in the morning 518 00:20:30,449 --> 00:20:32,050 Speaker 2: and said that I have a sick child who is 519 00:20:32,060 --> 00:20:35,380 Speaker 2: at home right after I finish what I need to do, 520 00:20:35,390 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: I need to go back to my child and without 521 00:20:37,890 --> 00:20:41,020 Speaker 2: even blinking an eyelid, everybody just said sure, of course. Right. 522 00:20:41,030 --> 00:20:43,579 Speaker 2: So it's not unique to a person who goes through 523 00:20:43,589 --> 00:20:46,339 Speaker 2: mental health struggles. I think as a team, if everybody 524 00:20:46,349 --> 00:20:48,979 Speaker 2: looks out for one another, then there are days where 525 00:20:48,989 --> 00:20:51,130 Speaker 2: it could be another colleague who needs 526 00:20:51,215 --> 00:20:54,076 Speaker 2: some time off to go and spend with their elderly parents, 527 00:20:54,296 --> 00:20:57,705 Speaker 2: somebody who has a sick fur kid, you know, and 528 00:20:57,715 --> 00:20:59,576 Speaker 2: then I don't need to ask any questions. I don't 529 00:20:59,586 --> 00:21:02,355 Speaker 2: need to even judge why is your need more than mine? 530 00:21:02,365 --> 00:21:05,326 Speaker 2: Like how can you compare your elderly parents with my 531 00:21:05,336 --> 00:21:07,426 Speaker 2: sick child or how can you compare your fur kids with? 532 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:10,786 Speaker 2: Like somebody's elderly parents? It's not a comparison. If there 533 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:12,906 Speaker 2: is a need, we step in for one another. If 534 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:15,395 Speaker 2: this is a good day for you, it's the same idea. 535 00:21:15,406 --> 00:21:18,885 Speaker 2: It's like everyone has different forms of limitations and when 536 00:21:18,895 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 2: there is mutual understanding and mutual respect 537 00:21:20,511 --> 00:21:22,650 Speaker 2: and also giving, right? I hear a lot about giving 538 00:21:22,661 --> 00:21:25,311 Speaker 2: from admin is so refreshing like I'm not just asking 539 00:21:25,321 --> 00:21:27,641 Speaker 2: for help. But I'm also ready to give, this would 540 00:21:27,651 --> 00:21:30,411 Speaker 2: be the differentiator, I guess for many colleagues who are like, 541 00:21:30,432 --> 00:21:32,942 Speaker 2: are you trying to Skype, are you trying to just 542 00:21:33,031 --> 00:21:35,251 Speaker 2: get a free pass around this area because you don't 543 00:21:35,261 --> 00:21:37,811 Speaker 2: want to do it or are you making excuses? That's 544 00:21:37,821 --> 00:21:39,831 Speaker 2: what many people think. But the way Evan puts it 545 00:21:39,842 --> 00:21:42,612 Speaker 2: across is that no, look, I'm genuine about my request 546 00:21:42,621 --> 00:21:44,952 Speaker 2: for help and I'm also just as genuine as offering 547 00:21:44,962 --> 00:21:47,482 Speaker 2: help to you or offering help to anyone. So I 548 00:21:47,491 --> 00:21:49,192 Speaker 2: think people in the workplace, they assess us as a 549 00:21:49,202 --> 00:21:49,631 Speaker 2: person 550 00:21:49,959 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 2: and how we treat others, how we are like on 551 00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: the whole, not just on a single day and that's 552 00:21:54,130 --> 00:21:55,899 Speaker 2: where they form the assessment of like, OK, are you 553 00:21:55,910 --> 00:21:58,459 Speaker 2: genuine in asking for help? And is this a legit 554 00:21:58,469 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: request or not for managers who are listening in at win? 555 00:22:01,599 --> 00:22:04,030 Speaker 2: What if they are worried that like giving extra work 556 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,750 Speaker 2: or providing more stress at work could be a trigger 557 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,020 Speaker 2: because I'm imagining that they would be a bit worried 558 00:22:09,030 --> 00:22:12,139 Speaker 2: about that. But is that true? Is like stress or 559 00:22:12,229 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 2: giving extra work always a trigger? I think 560 00:22:15,410 --> 00:22:19,390 Speaker 1: the triggers for each individual person vary and they will 561 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,729 Speaker 1: also vary over time for the individual. One of my 562 00:22:23,739 --> 00:22:28,569 Speaker 1: big triggers used to be public speaking and presentation, for example, 563 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:31,619 Speaker 2: like you need to tell me if I'm stressing you 564 00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:34,250 Speaker 2: out now that you tell us, I mean, 565 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:36,339 Speaker 2: I don't know how long into the conversation pretty much 566 00:22:36,349 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: the end of the podcast. 567 00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:39,599 Speaker 1: No, but that's exactly what I mean, like during a 568 00:22:39,609 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: certain period of time in my life, that would have 569 00:22:41,489 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: been a trigger. But over time with enough management, with 570 00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:46,349 Speaker 1: enough growth, I think this gets brought up a lot, 571 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,260 Speaker 1: especially in anxiety treatment that you deal with the anxiety 572 00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:52,989 Speaker 1: by having increasingly gradual exposure to the thing that's causing 573 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,718 Speaker 1: anxiety in an environment where it's safe for you to 574 00:22:55,729 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: have that exposure. 575 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,649 Speaker 1: So yes, giving more work might be a trigger and 576 00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:01,979 Speaker 1: giving certain types of what might be a trigger. But 577 00:23:01,989 --> 00:23:04,329 Speaker 1: the way to manage it is again to openly talk 578 00:23:04,339 --> 00:23:07,050 Speaker 1: about it, to openly ask my manager, for example, used 579 00:23:07,060 --> 00:23:08,698 Speaker 1: to ask, I need you to do this, do this. 580 00:23:08,709 --> 00:23:11,619 Speaker 1: I think you'll be OK at it. Will you be OK? 581 00:23:11,829 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: And then it's up to me to go. I think 582 00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:16,319 Speaker 1: I might not. But even if I'm not, what can 583 00:23:16,329 --> 00:23:19,140 Speaker 1: be done to push me towards that stage. So it's 584 00:23:19,150 --> 00:23:20,859 Speaker 1: more than just going. This is my trigger. I'm never 585 00:23:20,869 --> 00:23:22,660 Speaker 1: going to touch it no matter what. And more of 586 00:23:22,670 --> 00:23:24,989 Speaker 1: this is my trigger. Now, I think I might need 587 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,430 Speaker 1: this to manage it and then you will 588 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:27,430 Speaker 1: that yourself as well. 589 00:23:27,699 --> 00:23:30,550 Speaker 2: There has to be a fair element of challenge as 590 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,380 Speaker 2: well as growth involved as well. It's not like I'm 591 00:23:33,390 --> 00:23:36,429 Speaker 2: just trying to give you exactly what you need, but 592 00:23:36,439 --> 00:23:38,310 Speaker 2: it has to be a little bit of stretch and 593 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 2: it has to be designed, agreed upon managers pushing a 594 00:23:41,410 --> 00:23:43,329 Speaker 2: little bit. And for us, we are asking how much 595 00:23:43,339 --> 00:23:45,510 Speaker 2: can we take and what do we need in order 596 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:46,589 Speaker 2: to get that stretch? 597 00:23:46,859 --> 00:23:48,569 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think a lot of it is honestly 598 00:23:48,579 --> 00:23:51,079 Speaker 1: just perspective because at any point in time, a manager 599 00:23:51,089 --> 00:23:53,310 Speaker 1: assigning a new task to a junior, they will go 600 00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:55,429 Speaker 1: through a certain amount of stress doing things for the 601 00:23:55,439 --> 00:23:55,989 Speaker 1: first time. 602 00:23:56,290 --> 00:23:59,599 Speaker 1: It's pretty much the same circumstance as if they had 603 00:23:59,609 --> 00:24:02,448 Speaker 1: a mental of condition underlying and same thing with having 604 00:24:02,459 --> 00:24:04,619 Speaker 1: to make adjustments. For instance, I might drop out for 605 00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:07,500 Speaker 1: a week or two to recover. And I think sometimes 606 00:24:07,510 --> 00:24:10,369 Speaker 1: I've heard conversations about, oh, no, this person has this condition. 607 00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: They might take a week off, then we have to 608 00:24:11,890 --> 00:24:12,829 Speaker 1: do more work for it. 609 00:24:13,209 --> 00:24:14,829 Speaker 1: But you do the same thing when a colleague goes 610 00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: overseas on holiday. It's the exact same situation. Other people 611 00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:20,079 Speaker 1: pick up the slack while the person is gone. Just 612 00:24:20,089 --> 00:24:22,550 Speaker 1: replace holiday with, they need to recover for a week. Yeah, 613 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,219 Speaker 1: it's the same situation in a day. 614 00:24:24,229 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: Actually, it's a very good point. A very good paradigm 615 00:24:26,290 --> 00:24:28,550 Speaker 2: shift even for myself as well. Just see it as 616 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:33,430 Speaker 2: this person just is on a holiday, right? A mental holiday. Yeah. 617 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 2: So you are fortunate to have an understanding boss, but 618 00:24:35,890 --> 00:24:39,550 Speaker 2: I think not everybody has a boss who understands mental 619 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 2: health struggles. Some would say that my boss is a 620 00:24:42,209 --> 00:24:42,599 Speaker 2: bit of a 621 00:24:42,675 --> 00:24:45,574 Speaker 2: behind a so, so what would be your advice for 622 00:24:45,584 --> 00:24:47,574 Speaker 2: people who are caught in that situation? 623 00:24:47,584 --> 00:24:47,724 Speaker 1: They 624 00:24:47,734 --> 00:24:50,584 Speaker 1: could always leave. But again, that's not an easy solution. 625 00:24:50,594 --> 00:24:54,175 Speaker 1: Not everyone can enact a solution depending on your life circumstances. 626 00:24:54,185 --> 00:24:56,074 Speaker 1: If you can't leave the company and to go somewhere 627 00:24:56,084 --> 00:24:58,324 Speaker 1: else where you will be supported, that's where you go 628 00:24:58,334 --> 00:25:01,464 Speaker 1: into finding friends at work. That helps a lot. Having 629 00:25:01,474 --> 00:25:03,464 Speaker 1: someone that you can pull out for copy and the 630 00:25:03,474 --> 00:25:06,604 Speaker 1: two of you just share your problems over a drink 631 00:25:06,844 --> 00:25:09,935 Speaker 1: on a more outside the workplace. I think looking for 632 00:25:09,944 --> 00:25:12,015 Speaker 1: either counseling or therapy helps a lot. 633 00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:16,389 Speaker 1: If nothing else to help you learn more adaptive strategies 634 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,389 Speaker 1: techniques to help you cope. There's all the traditional things 635 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,329 Speaker 1: like lifestyle changes. For example, if you're already being stressed 636 00:25:22,339 --> 00:25:24,290 Speaker 1: out at work, it's probably not a good idea to 637 00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:26,609 Speaker 1: stress yourself out in every other areas of your life. 638 00:25:26,619 --> 00:25:29,089 Speaker 1: So that means things like making sure you get enough sleep, 639 00:25:29,099 --> 00:25:31,829 Speaker 1: making sure you eat healthily, making sure you are active 640 00:25:31,839 --> 00:25:32,750 Speaker 1: and you move around a lot. 641 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:33,209 Speaker 2: Very, very 642 00:25:33,219 --> 00:25:36,209 Speaker 2: good advice. I really hope that employers and managers don't 643 00:25:36,219 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: just see this as like a token effort just to 644 00:25:39,449 --> 00:25:41,689 Speaker 2: say that I've completed that training. And yes, I know 645 00:25:41,766 --> 00:25:43,496 Speaker 2: know what it is all about. I think this really 646 00:25:43,506 --> 00:25:45,946 Speaker 2: goes into how much care you give to the people 647 00:25:45,957 --> 00:25:48,546 Speaker 2: around you. If today you are a manager, you really 648 00:25:48,557 --> 00:25:51,776 Speaker 2: need to treasure your people, regardless of what limitations they have, 649 00:25:51,786 --> 00:25:53,256 Speaker 2: you have to learn to speak to them and also 650 00:25:53,266 --> 00:25:55,636 Speaker 2: learn to find out ways to support them. I think 651 00:25:55,646 --> 00:25:57,546 Speaker 2: this is the difference between a manager and a good 652 00:25:57,557 --> 00:25:58,036 Speaker 2: manager. 653 00:25:58,046 --> 00:25:59,745 Speaker 1: And I just want to shout out as well for 654 00:25:59,756 --> 00:26:02,265 Speaker 1: employers who are looking to do more or looking to 655 00:26:02,276 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 1: understand what they can do N CS s under. Beyond 656 00:26:05,166 --> 00:26:07,587 Speaker 1: the label, they have resources like the mental health toolkit 657 00:26:07,597 --> 00:26:10,626 Speaker 1: for employers that has a full like nine stage, what 658 00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:11,186 Speaker 1: policies can 659 00:26:11,263 --> 00:26:13,884 Speaker 1: we do? How do we assess the health of the companies? 660 00:26:14,134 --> 00:26:16,864 Speaker 1: There are initiatives like I work health, which is a 661 00:26:16,874 --> 00:26:19,654 Speaker 1: risk assessment for the company to figure out what are 662 00:26:19,663 --> 00:26:22,313 Speaker 1: the mental health risks per se? I mean risk not 663 00:26:22,323 --> 00:26:24,333 Speaker 1: in terms of, oh are they crazy people but more 664 00:26:24,343 --> 00:26:26,394 Speaker 1: like are we as an organization? Do we have a 665 00:26:26,404 --> 00:26:28,404 Speaker 1: good amount of mental health? And do we have enough 666 00:26:28,413 --> 00:26:31,484 Speaker 1: tools for that? There's also things like the Tripartite Alliance, 667 00:26:31,494 --> 00:26:33,823 Speaker 1: which they produce a lot of guides, how to build 668 00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:37,723 Speaker 1: safe spaces for conversations, how to approach these kind of conversations. 669 00:26:37,734 --> 00:26:39,524 Speaker 1: So there's a plethora of resource 670 00:26:39,534 --> 00:26:40,683 Speaker 2: and it's good because if you 671 00:26:40,869 --> 00:26:43,531 Speaker 2: hr doesn't have training for you, this is free, you 672 00:26:43,541 --> 00:26:45,781 Speaker 2: literally can go online. And because if someone comes up 673 00:26:45,791 --> 00:26:47,461 Speaker 2: to you today and say I'm going to tell you 674 00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:50,041 Speaker 2: something and then they share with you everything. I mean, honestly, 675 00:26:50,051 --> 00:26:51,781 Speaker 2: if you have no training, you will be like, I 676 00:26:51,791 --> 00:26:54,301 Speaker 2: don't know what to do. So take a breather say, 677 00:26:54,311 --> 00:26:56,250 Speaker 2: can I come back to you, go home, go and 678 00:26:56,260 --> 00:26:59,260 Speaker 2: look at these free resources and then the next day 679 00:26:59,270 --> 00:27:01,541 Speaker 2: you can have that conversation again and use that nine 680 00:27:01,551 --> 00:27:04,420 Speaker 2: steps that you were mentioning to help your employee. So yeah, 681 00:27:04,431 --> 00:27:06,541 Speaker 2: thank you for mentioning these resources. I think this is 682 00:27:06,551 --> 00:27:07,911 Speaker 2: definitely very, very helpful. 683 00:27:08,181 --> 00:27:08,830 Speaker 1: I welcome. Very 684 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,129 Speaker 1: happy to be here. Thank you. 685 00:27:14,229 --> 00:27:17,619 Speaker 2: Hi, we are back with our ask me anything segment 686 00:27:17,630 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: where we take a work related question that you have 687 00:27:20,010 --> 00:27:22,599 Speaker 2: sent to us. Today's question was sent in by our 688 00:27:22,609 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 2: listener s so s thinks that there is serious office 689 00:27:26,410 --> 00:27:29,938 Speaker 2: politics and favoritism in her office and this is at 690 00:27:30,025 --> 00:27:33,385 Speaker 2: the senior management level. Now, her team feels that their 691 00:27:33,395 --> 00:27:36,104 Speaker 2: manager is not in the good books of the director 692 00:27:36,114 --> 00:27:39,994 Speaker 2: and that's affecting all of their career prospects. There's another 693 00:27:40,005 --> 00:27:43,035 Speaker 2: manager who is seen as the favorite and those under 694 00:27:43,045 --> 00:27:45,724 Speaker 2: that manager's team is getting more recognition 695 00:27:46,449 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 2: is sure that there is nothing wrong with her team's 696 00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:52,859 Speaker 2: work performance because their grades are always above average even 697 00:27:52,869 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 2: better than the other teams. And her team is also 698 00:27:55,770 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 2: the highest contributor in the company. Ok. So the evidence 699 00:27:58,890 --> 00:28:02,319 Speaker 2: points that ssa's team is doing very well, but the 700 00:28:02,329 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: situation of not being favored is affecting her. Now, Gerald 701 00:28:06,650 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 2: favoritism in the workplace. Have you seen many instances of it? Yeah, 702 00:28:10,494 --> 00:28:12,994 Speaker 2: definitely a lot. And we cannot run away from it. 703 00:28:13,005 --> 00:28:16,505 Speaker 2: Humans being humans, we are all biased one way or another. 704 00:28:16,515 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 2: And I think we always have preferences. We cannot erase it. 705 00:28:20,186 --> 00:28:22,416 Speaker 2: What we can only do is to see whether it 706 00:28:22,426 --> 00:28:26,306 Speaker 2: becomes dysfunctional or becomes toxic. I think when the workplace 707 00:28:26,316 --> 00:28:29,686 Speaker 2: starts to have a lot of toxic or unhealthy favoritism, 708 00:28:29,734 --> 00:28:32,696 Speaker 2: it creates a really bad culture of work where there's 709 00:28:32,705 --> 00:28:34,875 Speaker 2: a lot of distrust, loss of morale 710 00:28:35,161 --> 00:28:38,082 Speaker 2: and even employees don't really want to work. Yeah, they 711 00:28:38,092 --> 00:28:40,722 Speaker 2: see no point in working so hard when I'm not 712 00:28:40,732 --> 00:28:42,302 Speaker 2: going to get the rewards, I'm not going to get 713 00:28:42,312 --> 00:28:44,212 Speaker 2: the outcome that I think I deserve. But then like 714 00:28:44,222 --> 00:28:47,251 Speaker 2: some managers might say, I'm not, I'm not practicing favoritism. 715 00:28:47,261 --> 00:28:49,641 Speaker 2: I mean, what if it's a matter of perception? Yeah, 716 00:28:49,651 --> 00:28:52,062 Speaker 2: that's a fair point of Tiffany because very often when 717 00:28:52,072 --> 00:28:54,552 Speaker 2: our minds try to explain certain things or behaviors and 718 00:28:54,562 --> 00:28:56,521 Speaker 2: we don't really have an answer. We tend to gravitate 719 00:28:56,531 --> 00:28:59,312 Speaker 2: towards favoritism. So it's the other person's fault, not yours. 720 00:28:59,447 --> 00:29:01,917 Speaker 2: So I think if today in situation, we should be 721 00:29:01,927 --> 00:29:05,147 Speaker 2: mindful not to use favoritism for everything that we feel 722 00:29:05,157 --> 00:29:07,708 Speaker 2: unfair about. Maybe sometimes it's more healthy for us to 723 00:29:07,718 --> 00:29:10,348 Speaker 2: also think about it objectively what could be some possible 724 00:29:10,358 --> 00:29:13,098 Speaker 2: reasons why these things are happening just because we cannot 725 00:29:13,108 --> 00:29:15,578 Speaker 2: explain for something, doesn't mean that it's unfair or there's 726 00:29:15,588 --> 00:29:18,307 Speaker 2: favoritism at place, right? I guess the only challenge here 727 00:29:18,317 --> 00:29:21,017 Speaker 2: is how to distinguish how to distinguish whether it is 728 00:29:21,027 --> 00:29:23,677 Speaker 2: a fact or is it like something just in your mind? 729 00:29:23,923 --> 00:29:26,043 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think in Essa's case, she feels that 730 00:29:26,053 --> 00:29:29,764 Speaker 2: it's fact because she mentioned all these different data points, right? 731 00:29:29,774 --> 00:29:32,524 Speaker 2: The results show for itself, they contribute the most to 732 00:29:32,534 --> 00:29:35,313 Speaker 2: the company. But at the same time, the other team 733 00:29:35,323 --> 00:29:38,713 Speaker 2: is always getting the promotions and the opportunities and she's 734 00:29:38,723 --> 00:29:41,524 Speaker 2: kind of explaining down to it's not us. It's actually 735 00:29:41,534 --> 00:29:43,913 Speaker 2: the boss, like my boss, the person who is leading 736 00:29:43,923 --> 00:29:46,413 Speaker 2: the team. So what can she do then? Yeah, it 737 00:29:46,423 --> 00:29:48,303 Speaker 2: really sounds like her boss is the issue. 738 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,630 Speaker 2: And I just imagine all the conversations and her colleagues 739 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,979 Speaker 2: have about the situation because it's probably not just her 740 00:29:53,989 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: feeling that way, right? So if this is just a 741 00:29:56,290 --> 00:29:58,780 Speaker 2: one off incident, I think people can kind of let 742 00:29:58,790 --> 00:29:59,290 Speaker 2: that go. 743 00:29:59,630 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: But if it's often repeated over and over again, maybe 744 00:30:02,290 --> 00:30:04,329 Speaker 2: over years, then I think maybe you have to think 745 00:30:04,339 --> 00:30:06,449 Speaker 2: a little bit harder about what to do. So if 746 00:30:06,459 --> 00:30:09,969 Speaker 2: today indeed favoritism is present and it's not healthy, it's 747 00:30:09,979 --> 00:30:12,510 Speaker 2: affecting people's morale. I think one of the things that 748 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,719 Speaker 2: s could do perhaps is to just have a conversation, private, 749 00:30:15,729 --> 00:30:18,069 Speaker 2: one with the manager, ok. With her direct boss, the 750 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:20,780 Speaker 2: one who she feels is not being favored. Yes, I 751 00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:23,250 Speaker 2: think having that private conversation to find out is there 752 00:30:23,260 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 2: an issue, is there something wrong with? 753 00:30:25,334 --> 00:30:27,265 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't know. But if today I'm the 754 00:30:27,275 --> 00:30:30,375 Speaker 2: boss working in team, I would also kind of feel 755 00:30:30,385 --> 00:30:31,974 Speaker 2: that how come I'm not favor, how come my team 756 00:30:31,984 --> 00:30:35,045 Speaker 2: is not favored? Right? And I'm affecting my own people 757 00:30:35,055 --> 00:30:37,005 Speaker 2: as well. Correct. So I think if s could have 758 00:30:37,015 --> 00:30:39,665 Speaker 2: that open private conversation with the boss to talk about 759 00:30:39,675 --> 00:30:42,425 Speaker 2: this issue and also maybe to explain how they feel, 760 00:30:42,435 --> 00:30:45,854 Speaker 2: how she feels about the favoritism part, then maybe she'll 761 00:30:45,864 --> 00:30:48,295 Speaker 2: get some answers behind it. So that's one, of course, 762 00:30:48,305 --> 00:30:50,265 Speaker 2: it depends on whether the manager is open 763 00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:53,750 Speaker 2: to share their own challenges with us. If having a 764 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,329 Speaker 2: conversation with the boss is not a possibility, then maybe 765 00:30:56,339 --> 00:30:59,420 Speaker 2: raise this up to the hr especially if it affects 766 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 2: things like rewards, remuneration, people are getting promoted or getting 767 00:31:03,489 --> 00:31:06,449 Speaker 2: more pay or getting more bonuses ahead for repeated times. 768 00:31:06,459 --> 00:31:08,199 Speaker 2: I think it's warranted to raise up to hr to 769 00:31:08,209 --> 00:31:10,109 Speaker 2: flag out to say, hey, what's going on? How come 770 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 2: my performance is not producing the expected recognition? Yeah, if 771 00:31:14,530 --> 00:31:17,589 Speaker 2: the companies have got like discrimination policies, maybe you want 772 00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:17,849 Speaker 2: to read 773 00:31:17,942 --> 00:31:20,281 Speaker 2: it up and see whether is there any grounds to 774 00:31:20,291 --> 00:31:23,001 Speaker 2: whistle blow if there's a need to? Right. And of 775 00:31:23,011 --> 00:31:26,482 Speaker 2: course most companies, they will have employee engagement surveys and 776 00:31:26,501 --> 00:31:28,602 Speaker 2: maybe that's a good time to maybe pin down some 777 00:31:28,612 --> 00:31:31,362 Speaker 2: points to get them to get management. And hr to 778 00:31:31,371 --> 00:31:33,852 Speaker 2: take notice of how this favoritism is playing out. How 779 00:31:33,862 --> 00:31:36,442 Speaker 2: is it affecting morale? How is it affecting rewards and 780 00:31:36,452 --> 00:31:40,232 Speaker 2: recognition and last, but not least if it gets too 781 00:31:40,241 --> 00:31:42,921 Speaker 2: bad and if nothing is done then as maybe we 782 00:31:42,932 --> 00:31:45,241 Speaker 2: have to consider to leave. Yeah. Yeah. I think that 783 00:31:45,374 --> 00:31:48,034 Speaker 2: wouldn't be ruled out. But maybe if I'm si, will 784 00:31:48,043 --> 00:31:50,093 Speaker 2: probably try to explore all the options, step by step 785 00:31:50,104 --> 00:31:52,284 Speaker 2: first to see because we have to remember that s 786 00:31:52,293 --> 00:31:54,833 Speaker 2: is working in high performing team. There's a lot that's 787 00:31:54,843 --> 00:31:57,793 Speaker 2: going well for her as well. So leaving right now 788 00:31:57,803 --> 00:32:00,284 Speaker 2: may not be the best thing. Yeah, but also at 789 00:32:00,293 --> 00:32:02,254 Speaker 2: the same time, if they are a very high performing 790 00:32:02,264 --> 00:32:05,274 Speaker 2: team and the boss or the director is seeing that 791 00:32:05,284 --> 00:32:08,484 Speaker 2: most people are leaving this team, they too will also 792 00:32:08,494 --> 00:32:10,394 Speaker 2: kind of take action. They might take some of these 793 00:32:10,404 --> 00:32:12,673 Speaker 2: feedback a bit more seriously. Yeah, maybe 794 00:32:12,806 --> 00:32:15,426 Speaker 2: boss would leave or maybe the boss would be transferred 795 00:32:15,436 --> 00:32:17,296 Speaker 2: to another department and then somebody who comes in and 796 00:32:17,306 --> 00:32:19,345 Speaker 2: things will be different. So yeah, a lot can happen. 797 00:32:19,355 --> 00:32:22,265 Speaker 2: A lot can happen. So as I hope your situation 798 00:32:22,276 --> 00:32:26,005 Speaker 2: turns for the better sooner rather than later. And if 799 00:32:26,015 --> 00:32:28,365 Speaker 2: like as you have a question that Jal or even 800 00:32:28,375 --> 00:32:31,046 Speaker 2: sometimes myself, I can answer for you, send it to 801 00:32:31,056 --> 00:32:34,635 Speaker 2: us at CN A podcasts at media corp.com dot SG. 802 00:32:34,686 --> 00:32:38,406 Speaker 2: We're also on Spotify Apple Podcasts or youtube where a 803 00:32:38,416 --> 00:32:40,115 Speaker 2: video version of this is at 804 00:32:40,439 --> 00:32:43,380 Speaker 2: the team behind the work it podcast is Christina Robert 805 00:32:43,390 --> 00:32:47,069 Speaker 2: Joan Chan, Jaini Johari Sye Wen and to Yan Yan 806 00:32:47,229 --> 00:32:50,650 Speaker 2: sound mixing is by Carrie Lim video by Haida Amin. 807 00:32:50,670 --> 00:32:55,300 Speaker 2: I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany have a super work week ahead.