1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,250 Speaker 1: this is a C. N. A. Podcast. 2 00:00:04,660 --> 00:00:09,670 Speaker 1: Bitcoin ethereum ripple dodge coin. That's right, we're talking Cryptocurrency 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,890 Speaker 1: mention it and you'll get all sorts of reactions? Some 4 00:00:12,890 --> 00:00:15,110 Speaker 1: will tell you to stay away with a 10 ft 5 00:00:15,110 --> 00:00:18,420 Speaker 1: pole while crypto bros will likely give you an approving 6 00:00:18,420 --> 00:00:19,860 Speaker 1: nod and a fist bump. 7 00:00:20,060 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: And then there's the rest of us people I guess 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: like me who have heard or read about crypto. I 9 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,890 Speaker 1: mean I'm curious I'm interested to find out more and 10 00:00:27,890 --> 00:00:31,940 Speaker 1: I may consider investing but for the most part I'm 11 00:00:31,940 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: just lost in the jargon of Blockchain technology and crypto mining. 12 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:39,610 Speaker 1: So why is crypto important and how should we navigate it? 13 00:00:39,620 --> 00:00:42,690 Speaker 1: After all, it's been a rocky ride with digital currencies 14 00:00:42,690 --> 00:00:46,970 Speaker 1: losing some us $2 trillion compared to their peak in 15 00:00:46,970 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: november last year. And recently the monetary authority of Singapore 16 00:00:50,650 --> 00:00:54,620 Speaker 1: or M. A. S. Proposed some new measures classifying crypto 17 00:00:54,620 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: trading as highly risky and unsuitable for the general public. 18 00:00:58,330 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: Here's what mes chief ravi Menon said, 19 00:01:01,620 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: I think many in the industry if I may say 20 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,670 Speaker 1: so have missed the plot because the crypto tokens that 21 00:01:06,670 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: are powering these block chains have taken a life of 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,410 Speaker 1: their own And speculation in cryptocurrencies as I think brought 23 00:01:12,420 --> 00:01:16,700 Speaker 1: great damage with Singapore position as a Fintech hub. In 24 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:17,010 Speaker 1: fact 25 00:01:17,245 --> 00:01:20,235 Speaker 1: for Fintech festival is happening as we speak. And having 26 00:01:20,235 --> 00:01:24,045 Speaker 1: attracted leading crypto companies to Singapore. Why is there seemingly 27 00:01:24,055 --> 00:01:27,155 Speaker 1: a U. Turn in sentiment now and what is the 28 00:01:27,155 --> 00:01:30,505 Speaker 1: future for this sector in Singapore. So I guess as 29 00:01:30,505 --> 00:01:32,870 Speaker 1: we say in Singapore. So how 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: joining 31 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,740 Speaker 1: me for this discussion today. I have Zan Quan, co 32 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:42,370 Speaker 1: founder and Ceo of Bitcoin exchange, Cryptocurrency pioneer that launched 33 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:45,990 Speaker 1: the first public Bitcoin machine in Asia we back in 2014. 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,230 Speaker 1: She's also a board member of the Association of Cryptocurrency 35 00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:51,610 Speaker 1: Enterprises and Startups Singapore. 36 00:01:51,620 --> 00:01:53,430 Speaker 2: Hi, it's good to be here. 37 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,620 Speaker 1: And from the National University of Singapore Business school is 38 00:01:56,630 --> 00:02:00,850 Speaker 1: Ben Sharon Wong an assistant professor in finance High pleasure 39 00:02:00,850 --> 00:02:01,390 Speaker 1: to join. 40 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,140 Speaker 1: Alright guys, thanks for joining us. Then I'm going to 41 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:06,580 Speaker 1: get cracking with you first help us get up to speed, 42 00:02:06,590 --> 00:02:09,610 Speaker 1: you know, Bitcoin was released in 2009, it was the 43 00:02:09,610 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: first Cryptocurrency and now there's some 9000 currencies in the system. 44 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:16,589 Speaker 1: But crypto has been around for in fact a few 45 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: decades by now yet we are still trying to figure 46 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: it out why is that in 47 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,609 Speaker 2: The beginning, Bitcoin was a rock star. If you look 48 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:27,540 Speaker 2: at the market cap in the first few years, 2010, 49 00:02:28,226 --> 00:02:33,865 Speaker 2: Bitcoin market cap takes up 95% of the entire crypto 50 00:02:33,866 --> 00:02:38,686 Speaker 2: currency market. Fast forward to now, Bitcoin total market cap 51 00:02:38,696 --> 00:02:42,716 Speaker 2: is about one third of the entire space. It is 52 00:02:42,716 --> 00:02:45,406 Speaker 2: the first time when two oh nine when Bitcoin was 53 00:02:45,406 --> 00:02:49,696 Speaker 2: born that the industry solved the problem of proof of work, 54 00:02:49,706 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 2: which is the duplication of the photocopy of digital currency 55 00:02:54,692 --> 00:02:58,852 Speaker 2: digital tokens and it was born to solve a lot 56 00:02:58,852 --> 00:03:04,052 Speaker 2: of problems at that time of the traditional financial markets 57 00:03:04,052 --> 00:03:07,842 Speaker 2: with multiple layers of middlemen to sum up. Bitcoin was 58 00:03:07,842 --> 00:03:10,522 Speaker 2: born to cut all these layers. 59 00:03:10,532 --> 00:03:12,202 Speaker 1: But it took a while you know some of those 60 00:03:12,202 --> 00:03:14,702 Speaker 1: layers still exist. In fact crypto is still not really 61 00:03:14,702 --> 00:03:16,392 Speaker 1: the be all and end all. We don't use it 62 00:03:16,392 --> 00:03:18,642 Speaker 1: for a lot of things. Why is that? A 63 00:03:18,642 --> 00:03:21,140 Speaker 2: lot of building and innovation came 64 00:03:21,157 --> 00:03:26,238 Speaker 2: In I would say 2017 during the IMF at the 65 00:03:26,238 --> 00:03:28,778 Speaker 2: same time there were a lot of scams on the 66 00:03:28,778 --> 00:03:29,718 Speaker 2: other spectrum. 67 00:03:29,728 --> 00:03:31,798 Speaker 1: Ben let me ask you. I mean why hasn't crypto 68 00:03:31,798 --> 00:03:35,578 Speaker 1: sort of really taken off? Inclusivity is a double edged 69 00:03:35,588 --> 00:03:39,048 Speaker 1: sword in general giving more access to people to enter 70 00:03:39,048 --> 00:03:42,088 Speaker 1: financial markets is viewed as a positive thing. We want 71 00:03:42,088 --> 00:03:44,898 Speaker 1: people to have banks to transact at low cost to 72 00:03:44,898 --> 00:03:47,458 Speaker 1: borrow money if they have good ideas right to create 73 00:03:47,458 --> 00:03:47,610 Speaker 1: new 74 00:03:47,624 --> 00:03:50,514 Speaker 1: companies and so on. But when it comes down to 75 00:03:50,524 --> 00:03:54,294 Speaker 1: the existing Cryptocurrency market as a very nascent new market, 76 00:03:54,304 --> 00:03:58,164 Speaker 1: when the price starts to skyrocket it also starts to 77 00:03:58,174 --> 00:04:01,494 Speaker 1: incentivize many bad actors to come in. So the question 78 00:04:01,504 --> 00:04:05,164 Speaker 1: for this inclusivity concern is to prompt on the one 79 00:04:05,164 --> 00:04:08,794 Speaker 1: hand you want people to explore and experiment on the 80 00:04:08,794 --> 00:04:11,304 Speaker 1: other hand you wanted such that the blow up risk 81 00:04:11,314 --> 00:04:14,053 Speaker 1: the example of people losing money. People losing their 82 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:17,710 Speaker 1: life savings. That's also under control. The regulators have to 83 00:04:17,710 --> 00:04:19,990 Speaker 1: walk a pretty narrow path right? How can you come 84 00:04:19,990 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: up with the sandbox or some kind of solution such 85 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,890 Speaker 1: that you can get new people, smart people to enter 86 00:04:25,890 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: the market and build new things and test and try 87 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,410 Speaker 1: it out. But on the other hand not open it 88 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:34,049 Speaker 1: up to become the Wild West where everyone can come 89 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: in and gamble their life savings. We're going to talk 90 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:37,910 Speaker 1: about regulation in a bit and it sounds like we 91 00:04:37,910 --> 00:04:40,550 Speaker 1: know Blockchain has the potential to do a lot. But 92 00:04:40,730 --> 00:04:44,580 Speaker 1: somehow perhaps we haven't found that sweet spot yet. And 93 00:04:44,580 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: I got to ask you this because we know a 94 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,750 Speaker 1: few months ago in May there was a huge crash. 95 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:50,910 Speaker 1: I mean the Terror the lunar currency they lost around 96 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:54,179 Speaker 1: 44 U. S. Billion dollars in just 72 hours. So 97 00:04:54,190 --> 00:04:57,050 Speaker 1: people are scared. They're saying this stuff is too volatile. 98 00:04:57,060 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 1: What do you guys say? Well it was the Wild 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,500 Speaker 1: West before a lot of people get rich really quick 100 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:06,930 Speaker 1: and I'm all for that. But when it crashes, you know, 101 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:08,729 Speaker 1: you accept that this is part of the risk in 102 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:09,370 Speaker 1: the system. 103 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:13,870 Speaker 1: Specifically with Terror labs. The U. S. T. There, algorithmic 104 00:05:13,870 --> 00:05:18,990 Speaker 1: stable coin was built on a fundamentally flawed assumption of 105 00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:21,900 Speaker 1: computer science. So some of the research that I've done 106 00:05:21,900 --> 00:05:26,510 Speaker 1: joint work with faculty members, academics in computer science, we 107 00:05:26,510 --> 00:05:29,780 Speaker 1: can actually prove that you could never have created something 108 00:05:29,779 --> 00:05:31,730 Speaker 1: that terra promised to the market 109 00:05:31,930 --> 00:05:34,890 Speaker 1: that kind of product cannot even exist. Now people can 110 00:05:34,890 --> 00:05:37,460 Speaker 1: try right and they did and they were successful and 111 00:05:37,460 --> 00:05:39,790 Speaker 1: then they crashed you know our statement is it's not 112 00:05:39,790 --> 00:05:42,890 Speaker 1: that surprising you're saying they were successful. So it worked 113 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: just not for a long time, 114 00:05:44,650 --> 00:05:47,130 Speaker 1: Depends on how you define success. Okay. I would define 115 00:05:47,130 --> 00:05:50,650 Speaker 1: success as delivering a stable coin as designed. What I 116 00:05:50,650 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: meant by worked in the market is that it attracted 117 00:05:53,610 --> 00:05:56,990 Speaker 1: a lot of fun flows. The reason why I could 118 00:05:56,990 --> 00:06:00,590 Speaker 1: lose 44 billion was because the market cap flew over 119 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,950 Speaker 1: 48 billion. 50 billion before that. Right? And so they're 120 00:06:03,950 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: very successful in marketing their product. And again it comes 121 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,630 Speaker 1: into this new product development, the new product innovation type 122 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:11,289 Speaker 1: thing when 123 00:06:11,365 --> 00:06:14,575 Speaker 1: do something hits the market, is this a good product? 124 00:06:14,585 --> 00:06:17,294 Speaker 1: And the question is who are the people who should 125 00:06:17,295 --> 00:06:19,635 Speaker 1: be responsible to find that out? Is it going to 126 00:06:19,635 --> 00:06:22,745 Speaker 1: be Mom and pop my parents? Is it going to 127 00:06:22,745 --> 00:06:25,885 Speaker 1: be computer science people if you go back to 2009 128 00:06:25,885 --> 00:06:28,965 Speaker 1: when Bitcoin was created, the first people who were there 129 00:06:28,975 --> 00:06:32,915 Speaker 1: are the cipher punks, the people who are anti establishment 130 00:06:32,935 --> 00:06:36,534 Speaker 1: computer science geeks who have been working on private digital 131 00:06:36,535 --> 00:06:38,065 Speaker 1: currency for a long time 132 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,710 Speaker 1: you've heard of the term? Maybe we don't know how 133 00:06:40,710 --> 00:06:42,690 Speaker 1: it works, but why don't you put your money into 134 00:06:42,690 --> 00:06:46,070 Speaker 1: the internet and get yourself a couple of coins? Well 135 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: it is also because sometimes back on my show talking 136 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,300 Speaker 1: point we did an episode about Cryptocurrency and I spoke 137 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:53,589 Speaker 1: to some people and like you said I couldn't figure 138 00:06:53,589 --> 00:06:56,820 Speaker 1: out who was launching this N. F. T. Who was 139 00:06:56,820 --> 00:07:00,239 Speaker 1: responsible for it. And if things went south where do 140 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,010 Speaker 1: I go to get my money back? I mean all 141 00:07:02,010 --> 00:07:03,740 Speaker 1: these things I couldn't piece together, it just didn't make 142 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:05,790 Speaker 1: sense to me. And in the first place it wasn't 143 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:06,339 Speaker 1: even like 144 00:07:06,570 --> 00:07:08,870 Speaker 1: a company I can see people going to work in 145 00:07:08,870 --> 00:07:11,660 Speaker 1: an office building. So is that what it's meant to be? 146 00:07:11,660 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: Is crypto meant to be kind of you know zan 147 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: tell me cryptic 148 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,610 Speaker 2: for a long time or a few years in the 149 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:22,170 Speaker 2: crypto space two things one is crypto products unregulated until 150 00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:24,100 Speaker 2: recently when we had the P. S. A. Act that 151 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: we are Singapore is regulating it through the bus, the 152 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,170 Speaker 2: virtual asset service provider. Second thing the barrier of entry 153 00:07:31,180 --> 00:07:34,220 Speaker 2: of getting to the market to buy some Cryptocurrency or 154 00:07:34,220 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: some token is very low. And then with that when 155 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:38,740 Speaker 2: people hear stuff 156 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,070 Speaker 2: stories of actually looking at certain price charts where things 157 00:07:42,070 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: just shoot up, they felt like you know the formal 158 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: Israel and they want to get into the activity, get 159 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:48,630 Speaker 2: into the bus but 160 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,140 Speaker 1: we can't all jump on the bandwagon that's the problem right? 161 00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:53,370 Speaker 1: You see something sounds good and then there's a lot 162 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:55,700 Speaker 1: of speculation. I mean we know one time Elon musk 163 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:57,980 Speaker 1: tweeted about dodge coin right? And next thing you know 164 00:07:57,980 --> 00:08:00,610 Speaker 1: boom it goes up. There's no logic behind that. It's 165 00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: just because he said something, 166 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:06,690 Speaker 1: what's worse than not gaining money is knowing that your 167 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:07,820 Speaker 1: friends gain money. 168 00:08:08,780 --> 00:08:10,270 Speaker 2: Yeah, 169 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:11,730 Speaker 1: so it really is for more 170 00:08:11,740 --> 00:08:17,500 Speaker 2: with that, that whole retail market jump on the bandwagon 171 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: and some even took up leverage to actually get into 172 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,820 Speaker 2: the space. And I think this is one thing that 173 00:08:23,830 --> 00:08:27,540 Speaker 2: recently regulations putting in that they do not allow financial 174 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:31,140 Speaker 2: institutions to provide leverage for retail customers to come 175 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:33,050 Speaker 1: in. Let's talk a bit about the regulation since you 176 00:08:33,050 --> 00:08:35,780 Speaker 1: mentioned it and just get people up to speed in Singapore. 177 00:08:35,780 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: We've introduced new 178 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,090 Speaker 1: doesn't stop trading in crypto, but it does put in 179 00:08:40,090 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: some safety measures earlier in the year, Cryptocurrency trading service 180 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,730 Speaker 1: providers were already prohibited from advertising or getting influences to 181 00:08:47,730 --> 00:08:50,780 Speaker 1: sort of promote their products. Now, investors will have to 182 00:08:50,780 --> 00:08:54,020 Speaker 1: go through kind of a risk awareness assessment and you 183 00:08:54,020 --> 00:08:56,130 Speaker 1: can't use your credit card and you can't borrow to 184 00:08:56,130 --> 00:08:58,790 Speaker 1: trade in crypto from what I'm reading mes is really 185 00:08:58,790 --> 00:09:00,979 Speaker 1: trying to protect the average consumer, 186 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,290 Speaker 1: but why do you think it's happening now? And as 187 00:09:03,290 --> 00:09:05,339 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, as we try to move towards being 188 00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: a financial hub, doesn't this go against the grain of 189 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,570 Speaker 1: that Stephen, you mentioned an interesting point just now, which 190 00:09:10,570 --> 00:09:12,990 Speaker 1: is suppose I lose my money, who do I go 191 00:09:12,990 --> 00:09:15,860 Speaker 1: to get my money back now. The interesting part is 192 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:18,170 Speaker 1: of course defi decentralized 193 00:09:18,179 --> 00:09:22,150 Speaker 1: finance was created for the purpose of not allowing that 194 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,740 Speaker 1: the whole point of getting rid of the middleman is 195 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: so we can kick out trusted parties so we can 196 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,429 Speaker 1: have a trust list, meaning I don't need to know 197 00:09:30,429 --> 00:09:32,610 Speaker 1: who's on the other side of the trade, but once 198 00:09:32,610 --> 00:09:36,610 Speaker 1: we trade it's permanent and you cannot undo it. You know? Nowadays, 199 00:09:36,620 --> 00:09:38,510 Speaker 1: just for context, when I go in and buy a 200 00:09:38,510 --> 00:09:39,300 Speaker 1: coffee 201 00:09:39,450 --> 00:09:43,260 Speaker 1: and I use my credit card, the Starbucks doesn't get 202 00:09:43,270 --> 00:09:46,109 Speaker 1: the money that I pay them until it settles 2 203 00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: to 3 days later and Starbucks has to trust Visa 204 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,570 Speaker 1: or Mastercard, whoever is doing the payment processing to actually 205 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,209 Speaker 1: settle that the whole idea of Bitcoin is get rid 206 00:09:55,210 --> 00:09:58,090 Speaker 1: of Visa, get rid of Mastercard. We show up, we 207 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:01,219 Speaker 1: clear instantly now if I'm unhappy, the trade has already 208 00:10:01,220 --> 00:10:04,490 Speaker 1: executed it's immutable. There's no way to undo that. In 209 00:10:04,490 --> 00:10:06,210 Speaker 1: fact that was the point. 210 00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:09,570 Speaker 1: But as you mentioned, people like it, people like to 211 00:10:09,570 --> 00:10:12,260 Speaker 1: be able to undo stuff, people make mistakes and so 212 00:10:12,260 --> 00:10:14,900 Speaker 1: then actually we now have trusted parties show back up 213 00:10:14,910 --> 00:10:17,170 Speaker 1: into the market. So what you're saying, Ben is actually 214 00:10:17,170 --> 00:10:19,429 Speaker 1: kind of like a currency, it's like cash in hand. 215 00:10:19,429 --> 00:10:21,189 Speaker 1: You know, once I've paid someone with cash, I may 216 00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:22,109 Speaker 1: never get it back. 217 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: That's right. I would actually argue Cryptocurrency can go way 218 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,020 Speaker 1: beyond just trying to be cash on hand. It may 219 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: have started that way, but nowadays there's so much more 220 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,470 Speaker 1: to it now. Hand over to zen to adam right? 221 00:10:33,470 --> 00:10:37,030 Speaker 2: I think more than cash on hand because cash we 222 00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:40,780 Speaker 2: can't really trace. But Cryptocurrency we could trace. And that 223 00:10:40,780 --> 00:10:44,290 Speaker 2: itself created a lot of more utilities after that So 224 00:10:44,290 --> 00:10:47,260 Speaker 2: far we've been talking about Cryptocurrency as a payment mode 225 00:10:47,270 --> 00:10:49,540 Speaker 2: on the other extreme. I mean we have people who 226 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:51,090 Speaker 2: say that oh I don't really believe 227 00:10:51,105 --> 00:10:54,965 Speaker 2: even Cryptocurrency or Bitcoin, but I totally believe in the 228 00:10:54,965 --> 00:10:58,804 Speaker 2: technology of Blockchain in between these two. There are many 229 00:10:58,815 --> 00:11:02,915 Speaker 2: products like utility tokens, security tokens or some of the 230 00:11:02,915 --> 00:11:07,615 Speaker 2: community tokens or voting tokens. That is where it gets 231 00:11:07,615 --> 00:11:10,785 Speaker 2: good in terms of the innovation and and these are 232 00:11:10,785 --> 00:11:14,235 Speaker 2: the area that we do not want. Regulation to cipher 233 00:11:14,245 --> 00:11:15,395 Speaker 2: in the building of it. 234 00:11:15,405 --> 00:11:19,755 Speaker 1: But the regulation is coming on more to protect retail investors. 235 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,020 Speaker 1: So why is there such a concern then if it's 236 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 1: kind of like cash then we should just let it be. 237 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:26,910 Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? Well, there are features of 238 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:31,710 Speaker 1: defy the decentralized finance world where because it is permission 239 00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:34,140 Speaker 1: list meaning when I show up to a protocol and 240 00:11:34,140 --> 00:11:37,229 Speaker 1: I want to do something, interact with the protocol. There's 241 00:11:37,230 --> 00:11:39,490 Speaker 1: no way for the protocol to figure out who I am. 242 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:41,540 Speaker 1: That's the point. This is what it means to be 243 00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:44,170 Speaker 1: permission lys anyone can show up and it's treated the same. 244 00:11:44,370 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: So in a very utopian ideal right? That seems great 245 00:11:48,370 --> 00:11:51,820 Speaker 1: because there's no discrimination. Everyone is treated equally. But the 246 00:11:51,820 --> 00:11:54,940 Speaker 1: flip side of that is anyone can then interact whether 247 00:11:54,940 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: or not they're good actors or bad actors, right? And 248 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,350 Speaker 1: these protocols can still allow you to borrow money and 249 00:12:00,350 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: generate things like a leverage cycle with no cap, so 250 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,410 Speaker 1: you can borrow more and more money. We might have 251 00:12:06,410 --> 00:12:07,350 Speaker 1: heard of things like 252 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,210 Speaker 1: Three arrows capital. They managed to leverage themselves up from 253 00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:14,449 Speaker 1: 30 to 50 million to over $2 billion dollars through 254 00:12:14,450 --> 00:12:17,980 Speaker 1: this kind of leverage cycle. And therefore there now is 255 00:12:17,980 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: more rules in place to just stop people from just 256 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,170 Speaker 1: loading up effectively getting more and more arms, right? And 257 00:12:25,170 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: they admit end up blow up the system that can 258 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,340 Speaker 1: cause ripple effects and impose losses on other people. 259 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:33,430 Speaker 1: But this sort of unknown factor, which also means the 260 00:12:33,429 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: bad actors, the bad guys, the criminals, they can get 261 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,650 Speaker 1: away with using it and no one will know 262 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:41,460 Speaker 2: And they can come back second time time. 4th time, 263 00:12:41,470 --> 00:12:44,190 Speaker 2: that's the thing, right? One of the regulation is on 264 00:12:44,190 --> 00:12:47,990 Speaker 2: travel rule. Travel rule, meaning that where did my Cryptocurrency 265 00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:51,410 Speaker 2: travel to and where did they travel from? So this 266 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:53,930 Speaker 2: is I think the timeline was next year for most 267 00:12:53,929 --> 00:12:55,829 Speaker 2: of the service provider to have that in place 268 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,929 Speaker 1: because it sounds like the perfect solution to money laundering. 269 00:12:58,940 --> 00:12:59,660 Speaker 1: I mean 270 00:12:59,929 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: if you really think about it, but okay, let's be fair, 271 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,510 Speaker 1: whichever currency, whichever platform there will always be good and 272 00:13:06,510 --> 00:13:09,100 Speaker 1: bad actors, right? So there's an upside, there's a downside. 273 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:11,060 Speaker 1: But in this case here M. A. S. Is saying 274 00:13:11,059 --> 00:13:13,690 Speaker 1: they want to protect the average investor because people, as 275 00:13:13,690 --> 00:13:15,730 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, are hearing of this 276 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,210 Speaker 1: quick solution to what seems like really easy money, How 277 00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:23,929 Speaker 1: is crypto different from any other high risk investment? Would 278 00:13:23,929 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: you say it's along the same category? And is there 279 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: a reason why we're singling out crypto, we do have 280 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,070 Speaker 1: financial innovations that have come and gone, 281 00:13:32,370 --> 00:13:35,650 Speaker 1: the financial innovations that have caused damage in the market. 282 00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:37,819 Speaker 1: So for example, you might have heard of things like 283 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:41,179 Speaker 1: the tulip mania in the 16 hundreds or so. It 284 00:13:41,179 --> 00:13:45,459 Speaker 1: wasn't that people suddenly just really love colorful tulips, what 285 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:48,770 Speaker 1: happened was actually there were new financial products that allowed 286 00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:52,250 Speaker 1: people to trade with leverage, things that look like a 287 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:54,930 Speaker 1: forward contract or a futures contract. So 288 00:13:54,955 --> 00:13:58,275 Speaker 1: it's typically when there's new products and people are entering 289 00:13:58,275 --> 00:14:02,415 Speaker 1: the market to participate at the same time, there's leverage 290 00:14:02,425 --> 00:14:06,395 Speaker 1: that allows people who may not be informed to actually 291 00:14:06,395 --> 00:14:10,385 Speaker 1: scale up their investments. So then both gains and losses 292 00:14:10,385 --> 00:14:13,495 Speaker 1: are blown up. And of course when people start gaining money, 293 00:14:13,495 --> 00:14:15,825 Speaker 1: you tell other people and more people come in, right? 294 00:14:15,825 --> 00:14:17,515 Speaker 1: So you can actually get this big bull 295 00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: Market, each person may only have $100, but if you're 296 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,770 Speaker 1: allowed to trade $10,000 each, the impact you can have 297 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: on the market is much bigger, inevitably, every time this happens, 298 00:14:28,770 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: there's gonna be a big unwinding that's fairly sudden and 299 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: fairly steep and pretty permanent. We've seen that a little 300 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,180 Speaker 1: bit already this year. It might clear the room now 301 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:40,090 Speaker 1: for people to just think a little more rash 302 00:14:40,395 --> 00:14:42,835 Speaker 1: about this market to kind of slow down and calm 303 00:14:42,835 --> 00:14:46,135 Speaker 1: down the market going forward, but it could happen again. So, 304 00:14:46,135 --> 00:14:48,855 Speaker 1: is that why these regulations are coming in to try 305 00:14:48,855 --> 00:14:51,365 Speaker 1: and protect people? I guess we 306 00:14:51,365 --> 00:14:54,945 Speaker 2: mentioned about the suitability test or the risk test for 307 00:14:54,945 --> 00:14:59,104 Speaker 2: people coming to the space. The proposed regulation is that 308 00:14:59,115 --> 00:15:02,710 Speaker 2: even when the retail player who failed the test, 309 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,590 Speaker 2: the service provider cannot entice them to take it again. 310 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,630 Speaker 2: This is a good development in terms of making sure 311 00:15:09,630 --> 00:15:11,990 Speaker 2: that people who are coming into the space at least 312 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: have a minimum knowledge of what they are going into. 313 00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:17,350 Speaker 1: If we come back to think about the problem for 314 00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: the regulator, they are in a tough position. Imagine if 315 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,580 Speaker 1: they were very aggressive in doing customer protection or retail 316 00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: trader protection, 317 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,010 Speaker 1: Then what will people say in 2021, people will say 318 00:15:29,020 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: you're stopping me from making money, you're only allowing sophisticated 319 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: rich people to make money and why don't you let 320 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,430 Speaker 1: me make money too? This is so unfair. On the 321 00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: other hand, when mom and pop enters and levers up 322 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,970 Speaker 1: 10 times their life savings and it wipes out. 323 00:15:43,210 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: How do I get my money back? How could you 324 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,090 Speaker 1: let me hurt myself so much. Right. So it's actually 325 00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:50,820 Speaker 1: a fairly difficult problem. You know what we have seen 326 00:15:50,830 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: historically is that the financial regulation will lag some of 327 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,570 Speaker 1: these unwinding events after the financial crisis. We got more 328 00:15:57,570 --> 00:16:00,390 Speaker 1: banking regulation. After these boom and bust, we get a 329 00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:03,350 Speaker 1: little bit more regulation. I mean increasingly in a more 330 00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:06,700 Speaker 1: complex world, the regulators are always playing this cat and 331 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: mouse game. 332 00:16:07,830 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: And another anger is scams because if you block out 333 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: certain segments of the market, you could create a breathing 334 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,810 Speaker 2: space for scammers to come in to target these groups 335 00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:23,430 Speaker 2: of our college Cryptocurrency participants. Because if you cannot do 336 00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:25,850 Speaker 2: certain things, me coming from the dark side of the 337 00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:28,650 Speaker 2: scammer will create products or scams to try to say, 338 00:16:28,650 --> 00:16:30,570 Speaker 2: hey why not here? Instead of 339 00:16:30,595 --> 00:16:35,565 Speaker 2: preventing losses or crime prevention, it became a crime displacement. 340 00:16:35,575 --> 00:16:38,535 Speaker 2: You moved the loss from here to another area. 341 00:16:38,545 --> 00:16:43,020 Speaker 1: Well it's just more opportunities for crime in a way, ironically, 342 00:16:43,020 --> 00:16:45,210 Speaker 1: I'm actually working on an episode of talking point now 343 00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:47,980 Speaker 1: which is about investment scams. They'll call you and say 344 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: hey you get in pre I. P. O. And give 345 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: you a good deal. These companies don't even exist at all. 346 00:16:57,900 --> 00:16:59,940 Speaker 1: Hi, my name is Sarah al Khaldi and I'm the 347 00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:03,230 Speaker 1: host of a new podcast called Money talks. Yes we 348 00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:05,830 Speaker 1: will be talking about money but more than that we'll 349 00:17:05,830 --> 00:17:09,970 Speaker 1: also be talking about life personal choices. Lucky breaks and 350 00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: how money is the thread running through it all. So 351 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,010 Speaker 1: look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts 352 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:23,580 Speaker 1: in a way, crypto sounds like any other high risk 353 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:27,689 Speaker 1: investment product. So do you think we're just giving crypto 354 00:17:27,690 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: a bad name? Are they getting singled out because they're 355 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,310 Speaker 1: the newest kid on the block. What makes it slightly 356 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:35,420 Speaker 1: different is the fact that it's permission lys and that 357 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:38,450 Speaker 1: there are protocols out there that allow you to enter 358 00:17:38,450 --> 00:17:42,030 Speaker 1: these leverage cycles. If there's a lot of retail traders 359 00:17:42,030 --> 00:17:44,409 Speaker 1: coming in and all they're doing is buying and selling 360 00:17:44,410 --> 00:17:47,570 Speaker 1: Pokemon cards, that's fine, right? The worst that they can 361 00:17:47,570 --> 00:17:49,770 Speaker 1: lose is the amount of money that they put in. 362 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:53,260 Speaker 1: But once we allow new people to borrow money, a 363 00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:56,610 Speaker 1: huge amount of money so they can trade 1000 Pokemon cards, 364 00:17:56,619 --> 00:17:58,830 Speaker 1: then we want to pay a little bit more attention 365 00:17:58,830 --> 00:18:03,050 Speaker 1: to that. Typically the telltale sign is whenever leverage is involved, 366 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:07,129 Speaker 1: it allows people to bet more than their means and 367 00:18:07,130 --> 00:18:07,380 Speaker 1: that's 368 00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:10,450 Speaker 1: The difficult part. We don't stop people from gambling. We 369 00:18:10,450 --> 00:18:13,870 Speaker 1: can walk into Marina Bay Sands, but typically you do 370 00:18:13,869 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: not want retail people to show up borrow money from 371 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,050 Speaker 1: people around them and then put it all on Roulette, 372 00:18:21,550 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: that's typically frowned upon and not allowed in most places. 373 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:27,810 Speaker 1: So in a way can we expect more regulation in 374 00:18:27,810 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: this space because comparing crypto to other investment products, you know, 375 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: those are often governed by certain rules and regulations governed 376 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,290 Speaker 1: by certain organizations or companies that they belong to. So 377 00:18:39,290 --> 00:18:41,430 Speaker 1: there is sort of a white picket fence to help 378 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,660 Speaker 1: keep you safe to a certain extent right will crypto 379 00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:47,260 Speaker 1: end up being just like all the other investment products 380 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:50,910 Speaker 1: we have bound by more rules, more regulations. 381 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: I think the activities that's going to happen in Cryptocurrency 382 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,949 Speaker 2: or digital assets or tokens whatever it's going to increase 383 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,010 Speaker 2: because how I see is that they are the enabling 384 00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: technology for Web 3.0 and as that industry growth, more 385 00:19:08,290 --> 00:19:12,230 Speaker 2: participants both on the traditional finance side and the retail 386 00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:14,270 Speaker 2: market site is going to come in. 387 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,290 Speaker 2: There are three baskets of crypto currency, right? One is 388 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: what we've been experiencing so far the tokens behind it 389 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:24,450 Speaker 2: for people listing some of the tokens right now, there 390 00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 2: is no regulation behind market manipulation behind token issuance. And 391 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 2: so some of these tokens when they are listed some 392 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:34,859 Speaker 2: of the price, 393 00:19:34,869 --> 00:19:37,810 Speaker 2: I can just shoot up and that your some of 394 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:41,730 Speaker 2: participants who are looking for increased like that knowing that 395 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:46,590 Speaker 2: it might not be value, there's no intrinsic value behind 396 00:19:46,590 --> 00:19:48,090 Speaker 2: some of the token they want to get in because 397 00:19:48,090 --> 00:19:50,220 Speaker 2: they thought I would get out before it drops. That 398 00:19:50,220 --> 00:19:52,810 Speaker 2: is just a regulation also coming in to prevent market 399 00:19:52,810 --> 00:19:55,030 Speaker 2: making a lot of developments on that front 400 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:57,070 Speaker 2: and on the other extreme we are talking about the 401 00:19:57,070 --> 00:20:01,820 Speaker 2: technology community tokens, we should not cover it up or 402 00:20:01,830 --> 00:20:04,629 Speaker 2: not look at it just because people are losing money 403 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:09,970 Speaker 2: in the Cryptocurrency side. There are other areas of digital 404 00:20:09,970 --> 00:20:12,970 Speaker 2: assets that I think are important. So 405 00:20:12,970 --> 00:20:16,470 Speaker 1: in your world there's a real upside even though there 406 00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:19,629 Speaker 1: is a downside. So even though people are speculating losing 407 00:20:19,630 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: money because 408 00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:22,870 Speaker 1: trying to get in and make a quick buck, I 409 00:20:22,869 --> 00:20:25,609 Speaker 1: think the upside Well it's very prevalent and I know 410 00:20:25,609 --> 00:20:26,900 Speaker 1: in the future is going to be, I mean I've 411 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:29,630 Speaker 1: heard this of how eventually we could for example buy 412 00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: and sell a house using crypto. So you won't need 413 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,170 Speaker 1: to get a lawyer involved because you have these tokens. 414 00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: You know, basically it's all legitimized online through different ways 415 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,550 Speaker 1: of authenticating it. So you won't need the old pen 416 00:20:41,550 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: and paper kind of signage to to get these kind 417 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: of things done. 418 00:20:45,060 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: So I can see that as an upside. But in 419 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,050 Speaker 1: the meantime, how soon will we get there? Are we 420 00:20:49,050 --> 00:20:51,250 Speaker 1: going to have to struggle through a lot of this 421 00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: murky water, people losing money before we get to it 422 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,690 Speaker 1: being legitimate and normalized as part of our day to 423 00:20:58,690 --> 00:20:59,100 Speaker 1: day 424 00:20:59,380 --> 00:21:04,090 Speaker 2: as more traditional finance company or recalling the Financial ization 425 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:08,210 Speaker 2: of crypto assets. The fluctuation in prices would not be 426 00:21:08,210 --> 00:21:12,380 Speaker 2: that great going forward as more players come in and 427 00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:16,290 Speaker 2: not to forget when Cryptocurrency or Bitcoin was born, it 428 00:21:16,290 --> 00:21:20,459 Speaker 2: was really to create services or allow the 429 00:21:20,470 --> 00:21:25,060 Speaker 2: onboarding of the underserved community right, which are part of 430 00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:29,330 Speaker 2: the retail market. So when we actually stop this layer 431 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:34,010 Speaker 2: of consumer or investor of participants to come on board 432 00:21:34,020 --> 00:21:39,379 Speaker 2: the Cryptocurrency wagon, we are actually going against what Cryptocurrency 433 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:41,550 Speaker 2: are born to do the pure pillars of it. 434 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,510 Speaker 2: So I think we have to be aware of that 435 00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:46,909 Speaker 2: as well if we totally block up this whole segment 436 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: that we're losing something on 437 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,140 Speaker 1: the inclusion side, just slowing people down and having them 438 00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:56,010 Speaker 1: pause to think. A lot of that can already resolve 439 00:21:56,010 --> 00:22:00,820 Speaker 1: some of the fear of missing out highly leveraged activity, 440 00:22:00,830 --> 00:22:02,650 Speaker 1: some of it okay. Not all of it, 441 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,010 Speaker 1: but the technology to do some cool stuff steven that 442 00:22:06,010 --> 00:22:09,830 Speaker 1: you mentioned is already here. Programmable money. That's awesome. Back 443 00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: in the day you give your kids $10 and then 444 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,090 Speaker 1: you tell them spend it in the school cafeteria but 445 00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:18,210 Speaker 1: they can go anywhere else. But nowadays with the digital 446 00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:20,939 Speaker 1: currency you might actually be able to say here's the 447 00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:25,460 Speaker 1: $10 but with restrictions, it can only transact if your 448 00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: per 449 00:22:25,670 --> 00:22:29,060 Speaker 1: purchasing from a store that has a particular classification like 450 00:22:29,060 --> 00:22:32,619 Speaker 1: cafeteria in the school. Now that makes life for kids 451 00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:36,390 Speaker 1: much tougher because it hampers their freedom obviously, but you 452 00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:38,490 Speaker 1: as the parent can then have more control. So this 453 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:40,210 Speaker 1: is in line with what you mentioned, right, you can 454 00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:43,489 Speaker 1: buy a house, put money into escrow, automatically pay the 455 00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:48,190 Speaker 1: service providers automatically pay the property developers. Once it's certified 456 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:48,530 Speaker 1: that there 457 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: reach particular milestone, phase one, Phase two, Phase three of 458 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: construction and so on. However, I do want to emphasize 459 00:22:54,910 --> 00:22:58,500 Speaker 1: in order for us to use digital currency in the 460 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:04,110 Speaker 1: real world, trading physical goods and services. In reality, as 461 00:23:04,109 --> 00:23:07,970 Speaker 1: opposed to in the metaverse, we actually will always have 462 00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: trusted parties. For example, if I want to 463 00:23:11,410 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: have this currency that automatically pays the construction company once 464 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,390 Speaker 1: they've finished the house, I have to trust someone to 465 00:23:18,390 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: come in to certify that they have indeed finished the house. 466 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,550 Speaker 1: This idea of trust listening, I think has gone a 467 00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: little overboard and people need to realize in order for 468 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,250 Speaker 1: it to be part of our day to day lives. 469 00:23:31,260 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: There still needs to be some level of trust in 470 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:34,270 Speaker 1: the system. 471 00:23:34,430 --> 00:23:37,459 Speaker 1: Trust is actually very efficient. That's why we have the 472 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:40,820 Speaker 1: monetary system that we have today to make everything go 473 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:45,090 Speaker 1: to the full other extreme. The libertarian utopia that is 474 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:47,540 Speaker 1: Satoshi Nakamoto original paper 475 00:23:47,690 --> 00:23:51,860 Speaker 1: that's on another extreme, which is nice as a thought experiment. 476 00:23:51,869 --> 00:23:54,300 Speaker 1: But my stance is in reality there needs to be 477 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: some middle ground where we can leverage some of the 478 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,500 Speaker 1: innovations and efficiency gains without losing the fabric of society, 479 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:05,090 Speaker 1: without needing to resort to anarchy, for example. So how 480 00:24:05,090 --> 00:24:10,419 Speaker 1: far away are we from finding that sweet spot years, decades. 481 00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:11,230 Speaker 1: What 482 00:24:11,230 --> 00:24:13,379 Speaker 2: we are seeing is that the technology is already here. 483 00:24:13,380 --> 00:24:15,929 Speaker 2: That enable us to do that. But what is really 484 00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:19,500 Speaker 2: stopping us right now is I think the regulation, we 485 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:22,310 Speaker 2: have achieved a lot the past few years. The crypto 486 00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: industry is ready but the regulators might not be ready yet. 487 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:31,060 Speaker 2: For example, Travel rule, everything is ready from the service 488 00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:33,719 Speaker 2: provider point of view. Now we're just waiting for the 489 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,090 Speaker 2: regulator to talk to each other. How do you all 490 00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:36,810 Speaker 2: want to roll this? 491 00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:40,030 Speaker 2: How do we want to enforce it? Right, We're getting 492 00:24:40,030 --> 00:24:42,660 Speaker 2: there for sure. It took a while for all for 493 00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: the regulators and the industry player to come together to 494 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,330 Speaker 2: come up with at least a basic regulatory framework, which 495 00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:52,340 Speaker 2: we do have. Now the first hump is really over. 496 00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:55,090 Speaker 2: So what I'm expecting to see is a lot of building, 497 00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:58,260 Speaker 2: especially now the crypto winter. I'm seeing a lot of 498 00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:01,170 Speaker 2: building a lot of innovation going on right now 499 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:02,850 Speaker 1: is the fact that people are willing to 500 00:25:02,859 --> 00:25:05,060 Speaker 1: to try it out to give it a go. Because 501 00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: it's true if you don't know much about something, you're 502 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,990 Speaker 1: not really willing to give it a go. Right? I'm 503 00:25:08,990 --> 00:25:10,910 Speaker 1: not going to trade in crypto because like you say, 504 00:25:10,910 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't know enough about it and all the horror 505 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,469 Speaker 1: stories I hear make me feel like I shouldn't be 506 00:25:15,470 --> 00:25:16,540 Speaker 1: there anyway. If 507 00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: you look into it. A lot of negativity comes from 508 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,550 Speaker 2: the price fluctuation right? Because I lost money. I make money. 509 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,420 Speaker 2: You look at mask. The price of mask has fluctuated 510 00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:27,090 Speaker 2: wildly in the past two years. 511 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:28,899 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the mask is a tangible item. 512 00:25:28,910 --> 00:25:32,230 Speaker 1: Why should this guy make $20,000 in one day just 513 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:35,700 Speaker 1: for doing absolutely nothing. It just logically doesn't work with 514 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:39,020 Speaker 1: my old fashioned thinking of what hard work is, 515 00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:41,340 Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say. That itself is not bad, right? 516 00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 2: It's not a bad thing. But the price fluctuation make 517 00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:46,470 Speaker 2: people realize, hey, you know, I didn't get rich from it. 518 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: You did. So that the next thing come along, I 519 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,340 Speaker 2: would jump on it going forward. We are going to 520 00:25:51,340 --> 00:25:54,939 Speaker 2: see a lot more knowledge building up. I don't remember 521 00:25:54,950 --> 00:25:57,090 Speaker 2: early days, there are not many people who know how 522 00:25:57,090 --> 00:25:59,310 Speaker 2: to use the crypto wallet and there are people including 523 00:25:59,310 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 2: myself have lost Bitcoins like hundreds of $1000 actually in 524 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: the beginning, not because I got scammed, but because I 525 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: was still learning, I accidentally burned my Bitcoin. Right? So 526 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,609 Speaker 2: I think that itself the knowledge is building up in 527 00:26:11,609 --> 00:26:14,619 Speaker 2: the industry. I've seen a lot of more retail customer 528 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:17,310 Speaker 2: who knows what they're doing and people who are getting 529 00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: to know what defi is 530 00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:20,980 Speaker 1: right? Yeah, that's an expensive learning lesson. 531 00:26:20,990 --> 00:26:25,389 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. $100,000 is expensive tuition. 532 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,330 Speaker 1: I lost some also by sending it to the wrong 533 00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:28,859 Speaker 1: wallets 534 00:26:28,859 --> 00:26:29,929 Speaker 2: and 535 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:33,700 Speaker 1: amateur mistake, not to that extent, but I do want 536 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:35,699 Speaker 1: to add one thing though because there's a lot of 537 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:38,140 Speaker 1: discussion so far of crypto and we focus a lot 538 00:26:38,140 --> 00:26:41,970 Speaker 1: on this decentralization, right? That like let's have anyone come 539 00:26:41,970 --> 00:26:44,010 Speaker 1: in and build stuff and that's cool and that's awesome 540 00:26:44,010 --> 00:26:45,690 Speaker 1: and let's do it and we're going to build a 541 00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: whole new financial system. 542 00:26:47,230 --> 00:26:51,189 Speaker 1: But I do want to emphasize this, the technology that 543 00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:55,820 Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies use does not necessarily have to be tied together 544 00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:58,930 Speaker 1: with decentralization. Now at its heart, a lot of the 545 00:26:58,930 --> 00:27:03,620 Speaker 1: tech has that angle Blockchain is simply a decentralized database 546 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,500 Speaker 1: in some senses it 547 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,310 Speaker 1: and reduce trust so you don't need to trust another party. 548 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,580 Speaker 1: But in another sense you do give up something proof 549 00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:16,230 Speaker 1: of work is an extremely energy inefficient way to produce consensus. 550 00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:18,930 Speaker 1: The easiest way to get consensus is if there's just 551 00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:22,330 Speaker 1: one person, right, and they decide this is a centralized database, 552 00:27:22,330 --> 00:27:23,790 Speaker 1: that's what we use nowadays. 553 00:27:24,130 --> 00:27:26,669 Speaker 1: So I do want to raise the possibility that some 554 00:27:26,670 --> 00:27:30,510 Speaker 1: of the technology and innovations now such as programmable money 555 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: can be used by trusted institutions. They can be used 556 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,350 Speaker 1: by banks to the extent we trust them. They can 557 00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:37,910 Speaker 1: be used by the government. 558 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,350 Speaker 2: Another anger of looking at it as well as like 559 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,129 Speaker 2: money with breadcrumbs. So you leave trail wherever 560 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:47,790 Speaker 2: there you go. So besides allowing certain usage of it, 561 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,470 Speaker 2: a lot of big data is going to be created 562 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,900 Speaker 2: from it. You know, if I don't have any restrictions 563 00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: on my Cryptocurrency, you know where I spent, you know 564 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,419 Speaker 2: where they go. So you get very accurate information or 565 00:27:58,420 --> 00:28:01,660 Speaker 2: statistics because before that it wasn't an estimation now we're 566 00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 2: talking about how much GDP is being spent 567 00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:08,350 Speaker 2: on certain items. In fact we can even say which 568 00:28:08,350 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 2: product is being purchased more in the supermarket because you 569 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,500 Speaker 2: can get very granular information, text, everything can be done 570 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:19,070 Speaker 2: on the spot real time settlement. 571 00:28:19,070 --> 00:28:21,460 Speaker 1: You sound excited about it then. But I'm sure many 572 00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:24,140 Speaker 1: people have just heard that and gone, oh my gosh, 573 00:28:24,780 --> 00:28:27,510 Speaker 1: my wife is going to know I bought new golf clubs. 574 00:28:28,450 --> 00:28:29,230 Speaker 1: Big Brother. 575 00:28:30,190 --> 00:28:32,250 Speaker 1: It's not just the credit card bill anymore. 576 00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:34,540 Speaker 2: Yes, telling you where you can spend but you cannot 577 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:36,670 Speaker 2: spend and living footprints everywhere. 578 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,790 Speaker 1: I think we should not be surprised that china of 579 00:28:39,790 --> 00:28:42,090 Speaker 1: all countries have been one of the first to push 580 00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:46,150 Speaker 1: ahead with this C B D C. Central bank digital currency. 581 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,460 Speaker 1: It raises a lot of privacy concerns partly for that 582 00:28:49,460 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: reason a country like Singapore is not quite ready to 583 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,570 Speaker 1: roll out something so aggressively and that's why they're kind 584 00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:58,070 Speaker 1: of testing it step by step to some extent. Even 585 00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:58,990 Speaker 1: if wallets are 586 00:28:59,010 --> 00:29:03,150 Speaker 1: are anonymized, it's just some random string of characters and numbers. 587 00:29:03,170 --> 00:29:08,220 Speaker 1: But if I see the entire transaction history maybe that's enough. 588 00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:10,230 Speaker 1: I don't need to know your identity. All I need 589 00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:12,550 Speaker 1: to know is these are all the places you've been 590 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: right in some sense that's a little scary as well. 591 00:29:15,490 --> 00:29:17,740 Speaker 1: But it's already happening. I think it's naive of us 592 00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:21,260 Speaker 1: to think that we can't, it's just just not as granular, 593 00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, perhaps, but guys, we have to wrap up. 594 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,770 Speaker 1: So perhaps if you could share with just one last 595 00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:27,830 Speaker 1: thing with, you know, all our listeners out there, 596 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:30,340 Speaker 1: we've been talking about Cryptocurrency, you know, I mean, what, 597 00:29:30,340 --> 00:29:32,350 Speaker 1: what would you want them to know at this point 598 00:29:32,350 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: in time and how they look at it as with 599 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,170 Speaker 1: all things and all things new and all things new 600 00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:41,580 Speaker 1: and shiny. It's good to exercise prudence. And even if 601 00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:46,460 Speaker 1: you're optimistic, let's add in the word, cautiously optimistic. Okay, 602 00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:46,780 Speaker 1: so 603 00:29:46,790 --> 00:29:50,490 Speaker 1: as we proceed, it's good to evaluate and understand that 604 00:29:50,510 --> 00:29:53,310 Speaker 1: there may be risk associated with it and take time 605 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,590 Speaker 1: to learn. There's going to be a lot of burden 606 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: on the new adopters to do their own due diligence 607 00:29:58,410 --> 00:30:01,030 Speaker 1: and if you're not ready to pay that cost, you 608 00:30:01,030 --> 00:30:03,970 Speaker 1: may want to wait a little bit to participate when 609 00:30:03,970 --> 00:30:06,740 Speaker 1: the market is a little more mature. That's right. Let 610 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:07,990 Speaker 1: others go first. 611 00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:10,530 Speaker 2: Good advice, Ben, I think for me, I'm just coming 612 00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:13,110 Speaker 2: in from an angle of the innovator, there are a 613 00:30:13,110 --> 00:30:16,790 Speaker 2: lot of talk about tokenization as well in the Cryptocurrency world, 614 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: let's not let all the losses and speculations as ongoing 615 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:26,220 Speaker 2: in the Cryptocurrency site overshadow the benefits of Cryptocurrency and 616 00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:32,380 Speaker 2: the technology tokenization without democratization is a circus, which, you 617 00:30:32,380 --> 00:30:34,250 Speaker 2: know what we are seeing right now, but we're responsible 618 00:30:34,260 --> 00:30:38,330 Speaker 2: regulation and innovation. We are seeing a lot of benefits 619 00:30:38,330 --> 00:30:41,300 Speaker 2: being not in the long term, but in the short term. 620 00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: Okay, so it's kind of like a circus that hasn't 621 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,340 Speaker 1: really got their act entirely together yet, but in time 622 00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: it will. And then they become like, I don't know, 623 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,870 Speaker 1: a circus Soleil, a great show that we can all 624 00:30:51,870 --> 00:30:54,230 Speaker 1: enjoy and watch. Well, thanks a lot guys. I think 625 00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:56,650 Speaker 1: one thing is clear whether it's all or new technology, 626 00:30:56,650 --> 00:30:59,229 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes good old fashioned common sense needs to 627 00:30:59,230 --> 00:31:00,150 Speaker 1: just kick in. 628 00:31:00,370 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: I'm one of those guys probably gonna sit and wait 629 00:31:03,050 --> 00:31:05,930 Speaker 1: and let others go first because the best way to 630 00:31:05,930 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: double your money, can you guess what it is is 631 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: essentially to fold it in half and put it in 632 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,740 Speaker 1: your pocket, zen Ben, thanks so much for coming. Thank 633 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:15,510 Speaker 1: you very much. 634 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,550 Speaker 2: Thank you. We wish we had more time 635 00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:21,150 Speaker 1: to our listeners. Thank you for listening as well. The 636 00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:24,490 Speaker 1: team behind this podcast is Jackson, chan chan chan daniel 637 00:31:24,490 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: lee and Christina robert. And I'm Stephen signing off