WEBVTT - Mining in the deep blue 0:00:03.289 --> 0:00:05.480 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:06.969 --> 0:00:10.060 The Twilight Zone. It might make you think about a 0:00:10.060 --> 0:00:13.500 science fiction film, but in real life, it's actually a 0:00:13.500 --> 0:00:18.069 segment of the ocean between 200 and 1000 m down, 0:00:18.420 --> 0:00:23.939 where sunlight can barely reach deep, murky, sub-aquatic, and it's 0:00:23.940 --> 0:00:29.219 a treasure trove, copious amounts of precious metals hidden in 0:00:29.219 --> 0:00:30.100 its depths. 0:00:30.649 --> 0:00:33.689 Today ahead of the UN's ocean conference, we dig below 0:00:33.689 --> 0:00:38.668 the surface to talk deep sea mining. Hello and welcome 0:00:38.668 --> 0:00:41.830 to Climate Conversations. I'm Jack Ford. Hello to Leing Tan 0:00:41.830 --> 0:00:44.819 as well. Hello. How are you? What's up? Hello, hello. 0:00:45.069 --> 0:00:48.340 I'm doing well. Planning a holiday, maybe to the beach, 0:00:48.668 --> 0:00:50.918 far away from everyone and from you. 0:00:52.540 --> 0:00:57.060 How are you? How are you? I'm just kidding. No, 0:00:58.229 --> 0:01:00.819 not far from you. It's always nice to know we're 0:01:00.819 --> 0:01:03.659 in the same time zone or similar time zone, but 0:01:03.659 --> 0:01:10.930 I am planning a holiday, near the ocean. Lovely, very nice. 0:01:11.589 --> 0:01:15.790 I'm good as well. Now, speaking of holiday and speaking 0:01:15.790 --> 0:01:18.830 of the ocean themes that we're talking about today, do 0:01:18.830 --> 0:01:21.268 you think you might be taking a little scuba dive, 0:01:21.309 --> 0:01:22.949 maybe a little bit of a deep sea. 0:01:23.639 --> 0:01:27.839 Exploration on your upcoming. Yes, I would, but I've actually 0:01:27.839 --> 0:01:36.400 never scuba dived. I'm more of a snorkes into the 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:46.989 depths of the ocean. 0:01:48.279 --> 0:01:51.400 We're getting a new insight into your personality here. But 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.199 what about the Titan? We, that was in the news 0:01:54.199 --> 0:01:56.319 a couple of years ago. That seemed like a really 0:01:56.319 --> 0:01:59.519 safe and normal journey to undertake. So ladies and gentlemen, 0:01:59.839 --> 0:02:04.559 Jack is being sarcastic. That Titan exploded and everybody died 0:02:04.559 --> 0:02:06.720 in it. So no, Jack, I would not like to 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.559 go in a submersible like the Titan. 0:02:09.119 --> 0:02:12.210 Definitely not. But if there was a safer way, I 0:02:12.210 --> 0:02:16.440 definitely would. Sign me up. OK, you wouldn't I was 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.660 just imagining you in your flippers and your scuba mask 0:02:19.660 --> 0:02:20.478 that was more than. 0:02:23.758 --> 0:02:26.520 I found that amusing. Alright, let's get into it, enough 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:27.889 of the nonsense. 0:02:29.649 --> 0:02:34.169 Quiz time. Which country was the first to apply for 0:02:34.169 --> 0:02:38.199 commercial deep sea mining rights? Mm. A very simple question. 0:02:38.570 --> 0:02:42.359 Was it China? Was it Papua New Guinea, the United States, 0:02:42.490 --> 0:02:45.089 or Norway? So you've got a few options there. The 0:02:45.089 --> 0:02:51.130 first country to apply for commercial deep sea mining rights. OK, 0:02:51.330 --> 0:02:52.250 I have no idea. 0:02:52.869 --> 0:02:55.648 Let me get back to you. Answer at the end 0:02:55.649 --> 0:02:56.470 of the show. 0:02:58.270 --> 0:03:01.300 OK, it's time for our main story this week. All 0:03:01.300 --> 0:03:04.619 around us, the world functions with the help of precious 0:03:04.619 --> 0:03:09.699 metals like cobalt, gold, nickel, copper, and many others. They're 0:03:09.699 --> 0:03:14.460 in our smartphones, our computers, the batteries of our electric vehicles. 0:03:14.580 --> 0:03:18.460 We kind of need these metals. On land, mining efforts 0:03:18.460 --> 0:03:23.649 have ramped up over time to exploit these riches. Now, increasingly, 0:03:23.660 --> 0:03:28.059 companies and governments are looking for the next frontier, the ocean. 0:03:28.419 --> 0:03:32.919 It's a mineral rich landscape, but the notion of mining it, 0:03:33.130 --> 0:03:36.690 ripping up sometimes ancient sea floors in the pursuit of 0:03:36.690 --> 0:03:40.690 these minerals is highly controversial. We're going to start this 0:03:40.690 --> 0:03:43.660 story in what feels like familiar fashion with the man 0:03:43.660 --> 0:03:45.399 in the White House, Donald Trump. 0:03:45.649 --> 0:03:48.610 Lee Ling, OK, talk us through how and why the 0:03:48.610 --> 0:03:52.960 US president is creating more waves in contention about this topic. Yes, 0:03:53.190 --> 0:03:56.639 President Trump. Now you might have missed this news given 0:03:56.639 --> 0:04:00.009 all that's happening everywhere else and especially coming out of 0:04:00.009 --> 0:04:02.529 Washington on a daily basis, but let me break it down. 0:04:02.830 --> 0:04:07.600 In April, Trump signed an executive order for US agencies 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:14.160 to expedite seabed mining in American territorial waters and international waters. 0:04:14.630 --> 0:04:19.170 Cue the outrage. Now why this is controversial is that 0:04:19.170 --> 0:04:20.609 essentially every country. 0:04:20.704 --> 0:04:24.415 In the world except the US has signed the UN 0:04:24.415 --> 0:04:27.255 Convention on the Law of the Sea. Now that's a 0:04:27.255 --> 0:04:31.934 broad treaty on all things, oceans and seas, and nations 0:04:31.934 --> 0:04:35.135 are supposed to refrain from mining in the ocean until 0:04:35.135 --> 0:04:39.484 environmental rules and regulations are sorted out. The US is 0:04:39.484 --> 0:04:41.974 not party to the treaty and Trump is jumping the 0:04:41.975 --> 0:04:45.334 gun here and safe to say it has everyone a 0:04:45.334 --> 0:04:48.774 little bit antsy, OK, very antsy, especially as experts and 0:04:48.774 --> 0:04:50.534 government folks prepare. 0:04:50.820 --> 0:04:56.089 Together at this top-level ocean talks in Nice in southern 0:04:56.089 --> 0:05:00.529 France next week. Yeah, yeah. A lot of people pretty 0:05:00.529 --> 0:05:03.450 unhappy with the moves that the US is starting to 0:05:03.450 --> 0:05:05.929 make in this space. Now we might get into what's 0:05:05.928 --> 0:05:10.440 happening at that forum shortly, but let's just tackle why 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.609 this issue is so contentious, why the lobbying efforts for 0:05:14.609 --> 0:05:18.368 exploratory companies seems to be so strong to get this 0:05:18.369 --> 0:05:18.969 industry happening. 0:05:19.519 --> 0:05:22.040 Now to date, basically there's been no commercial deep sea 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.000 mining at all, nothing's really been done, but there have 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:28.660 been lots of experiments over the past 40 years or so. 0:05:28.959 --> 0:05:33.518 But the plans for fully scaled advanced mining are starting 0:05:33.519 --> 0:05:36.179 to accelerate. So Lee Ling, who are the players in 0:05:36.178 --> 0:05:39.459 this space? Obviously we know that the Americans are part 0:05:39.459 --> 0:05:40.289 of this. Yes. 0:05:40.589 --> 0:05:43.169 They are pushing for an as an early mover into 0:05:43.170 --> 0:05:47.250 the space. The North American companies looking at mining underwater 0:05:47.250 --> 0:05:51.159 close to American Samoa as well as in between Mexico 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.350 and Hawaii. There's a group called the Metals Company, a 0:05:55.350 --> 0:05:59.769 Canadian outfit that has done some pretty serious testing of 0:05:59.769 --> 0:06:01.339 the first so-called. 0:06:01.660 --> 0:06:07.159 Integrated nodule collection system. It has apparently spent about half 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.118 a billion dollars to do so, and it's the first 0:06:10.119 --> 0:06:14.040 company to apply for a US permit. OK, let me 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:18.000 jump in here because we can't just walk past integrated 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:24.079 nodule collection system. Never heard of such a thing before 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.600 we were researching this. So what you're talking about here 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.640 is basically a robotic machine. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:33.600 That is extracting or sucking up minerals on the ocean floor. 0:06:33.690 --> 0:06:38.799 So you have these highly valuable mineral-rich little rocks, and 0:06:38.799 --> 0:06:43.200 they're called polymetallic nodules. And they're generally just kind of 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.429 sitting on the ocean floor. If you see pictures of this, 0:06:45.519 --> 0:06:48.678 it's pretty surprising. I didn't expect to see the sea 0:06:48.678 --> 0:06:52.559 floor covered in like thousands of little rocks. They're all 0:06:52.559 --> 0:06:55.850 just there, basically ready to be sucked up by the robot. 0:06:56.399 --> 0:06:58.200 And there could be some digging involved. 0:06:58.850 --> 0:07:01.609 As well, and then they're sent through a pipe, which 0:07:01.609 --> 0:07:04.540 is called a riser, up to a waiting ship. So, yeah, 0:07:04.709 --> 0:07:08.850 in short, that's our integrated nodule collection system that hundreds 0:07:08.850 --> 0:07:12.010 of millions of dollars have been spent on to create. 0:07:12.739 --> 0:07:16.869 Great, thank you Jack for that little explainer. A plus 0:07:16.869 --> 0:07:20.670 for that, Jack. Very good. You're welcome. So underwater robots, 0:07:20.679 --> 0:07:24.149 but before you interrupted this with all that tech talk, 0:07:24.359 --> 0:07:30.350 the other big players extend beyond the US. Enter stage right, China. 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.200 Now it was just a couple of weeks ago that 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.399 we saw Beijing holding close talks with the government of Nauru, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.480 a country in the South Pacific. We spoke about a 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.750 few weeks ago around its passports for sale policy. 0:07:42.119 --> 0:07:48.200 Now, look at Nauru. Nauru coming again. 2 starring roles 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.559 in the podcast in one month. Who would have thought? 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.649 So the countries discussed how to fast track deep sea mining, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:08:00.480 but they also criticized Trump's attempts to circumvent the rules. 0:08:00.559 --> 0:08:03.518 Now China, in quite a few Pacific nations are really 0:08:03.519 --> 0:08:07.000 keen to start extracting part of the Pacific Ocean floor 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.000 called the Clarion Clipperton zone. 0:08:10.540 --> 0:08:14.660 There's an estimated $20 trillion US dollars worth of riches 0:08:14.660 --> 0:08:18.820 down there, apparently, right? Yeah, it's a lot. So you've 0:08:18.820 --> 0:08:22.279 got China, but there's also Japan, South Korea, and India 0:08:22.279 --> 0:08:25.500 also looking to the depths of the Pacific to mine 0:08:25.500 --> 0:08:29.010 its riches. Norway, which you mentioned earlier in the quiz, 0:08:29.380 --> 0:08:29.859 it has 0:08:29.910 --> 0:08:32.950 Its eyes on the Arctic Ocean, and of course, there's 0:08:32.950 --> 0:08:36.580 Russia as well. We cannot discount Russia, of course. Now, Jack, 0:08:36.630 --> 0:08:40.819 tell us what the problem here is though. There's a 0:08:40.820 --> 0:08:43.900 lot of, there's a lot of problem here. Yeah, I 0:08:43.900 --> 0:08:48.299 mean the controversy is largely centered around environmental impact, probably 0:08:48.299 --> 0:08:49.299 not surprisingly. 0:08:50.039 --> 0:08:52.679 As well as the geopolitics. We'll leave that to one 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:57.299 side for now. Basically, scientists and environment groups widely believe 0:08:57.299 --> 0:09:01.669 that this type of activity will fundamentally impact ocean health. 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.349 This scooping up of minerals will obviously disturb the sea floor, 0:09:06.460 --> 0:09:09.320 it's going to raise sediments, it's going to disturb natural 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.799 habitats of important marine organisms and leave lots of waste. 0:09:14.270 --> 0:09:17.108 So the slurry that gets brought up will be divided 0:09:17.109 --> 0:09:19.549 from the valuable minerals, but then it'll just be dumped 0:09:19.549 --> 0:09:23.030 back into the ocean. So it's a little unknown how 0:09:23.030 --> 0:09:26.580 all of this debris will impact the ocean, which is obviously, 0:09:26.630 --> 0:09:31.109 of course, dynamic, it's a sensitive place, it's under-researched. It's 0:09:31.109 --> 0:09:35.719 not really known how these sediments might impact plankton, for example. 0:09:36.130 --> 0:09:39.099 Um, plankton is highly critical to the functions of the 0:09:39.099 --> 0:09:43.978 oceans and for biodiversity and climate. These organisms help regulate 0:09:43.979 --> 0:09:47.659 carbon as well, for example. So these plumes that are 0:09:47.659 --> 0:09:51.849 created could impact all sorts of marine life, like jellyfish 0:09:51.849 --> 0:09:54.419 that rely on buoyancy and on dolphins that might be 0:09:54.419 --> 0:09:55.140 affected by, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.929 The persistent noise of mining, other predators as well that 0:09:58.929 --> 0:10:02.570 require vision to hunt. Overall, how mining would impact these 0:10:02.570 --> 0:10:06.010 ecosystems and landscapes just isn't very well known, and the 0:10:06.010 --> 0:10:10.690 scientific community is fairly insistent on a moratorium on commercial 0:10:10.690 --> 0:10:12.169 activity until better research. 0:10:12.335 --> 0:10:14.674 Can be done and safeguards can be put in place, 0:10:14.815 --> 0:10:18.414 which seems logical. So that leads us to the UN 0:10:18.414 --> 0:10:22.604 Ocean Conference which is coming up. Now this is the 0:10:22.614 --> 0:10:26.135 3rd edition of this forum and there's plenty on the 0:10:26.135 --> 0:10:28.575 agenda and of course, this issue of mining will be 0:10:28.575 --> 0:10:29.054 one of them. 0:10:29.429 --> 0:10:33.130 In a nutshell, basically, there are several multilateral agreements that 0:10:33.130 --> 0:10:37.090 need to be sorted out. Of key significance is this 0:10:37.090 --> 0:10:41.530 high seas treaty, which is basically a framework for protecting 0:10:41.530 --> 0:10:45.679 marine biodiversity for 2/3 of the global ocean. Now this, 0:10:45.690 --> 0:10:47.729 of course, won't be easy. 0:10:48.150 --> 0:10:51.260 Then we've got issues and that's a bit of an understatement. 0:10:52.950 --> 0:10:57.169 Then we've got issues around marine pollution, ocean acidification and 0:10:57.169 --> 0:11:01.469 climate change, the sustainable fisheries, green shipping, and lots of 0:11:01.469 --> 0:11:04.789 other marine science and research topics that they need to 0:11:04.789 --> 0:11:09.750 iron out and discuss. Yeah, parties also want to mobilize 0:11:09.750 --> 0:11:12.189 finance for what's referred to as the blue economy. 0:11:12.650 --> 0:11:15.809 Which refers to the sustainable use of ocean resources. So 0:11:15.809 --> 0:11:20.228 another item on the agenda. And our CNA colleague Grace 0:11:20.229 --> 0:11:24.609 Shin recently spoke with Doctor Lizzie McLeod, the global ocean 0:11:24.609 --> 0:11:29.010 director at the Nature Conservancy, about why investing in ocean 0:11:29.010 --> 0:11:31.890 protection is an area that's often overlooked. 0:11:32.789 --> 0:11:34.619 Well, I think that one of the main reasons is 0:11:34.619 --> 0:11:37.500 that a lot of people don't know how incredibly important 0:11:37.500 --> 0:11:40.340 it is. The ocean provides half of the oxygen that 0:11:40.340 --> 0:11:43.299 we breathe. It feeds 3 billion people through the fisheries 0:11:43.299 --> 0:11:46.219 that it supports, and it's been really important in helping 0:11:46.219 --> 0:11:49.569 to buffer the impacts of climate change by absorbing excess heat. 0:11:49.780 --> 0:11:52.819 But it's also super important for our economy. It generates 0:11:52.820 --> 0:11:56.260 over $2.5 trillion annually, and I think a lot of 0:11:56.260 --> 0:11:59.619 people just don't fully appreciate and understand the incredible benefits 0:11:59.619 --> 0:12:00.219 that it provides. 0:12:00.710 --> 0:12:05.890 Doctor McLeod also explained why ocean health is especially important 0:12:05.890 --> 0:12:07.539 in the Asia Pacific 0:12:07.539 --> 0:12:08.049 region. 0:12:08.299 --> 0:12:10.699 I'm standing here in Singapore and I look around and 0:12:10.700 --> 0:12:14.489 this is such a vitally important for marine trade. 90% 0:12:14.489 --> 0:12:15.939 of the trade happens on the ocean. 0:12:16.340 --> 0:12:19.869 But also Asia Pacific is so important for marine biodiversity. 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.690 Over half of the mangroves and over a third of 0:12:22.690 --> 0:12:25.349 the world's coral reefs are found here, and there's more 0:12:25.349 --> 0:12:29.609 biodiversity here underwater than anywhere else on the planet. So 0:12:29.609 --> 0:12:32.270 it's incredibly important from a conservation perspective. 0:12:32.525 --> 0:12:35.434 But it's also so important to the economy. Most of 0:12:35.434 --> 0:12:39.155 the fishers and aquaculture farmers, almost over 80%, are based 0:12:39.155 --> 0:12:41.155 here in the Asia Pacific region. So if we want 0:12:41.155 --> 0:12:44.075 to be protecting and supporting these livelihoods, we have to 0:12:44.075 --> 0:12:47.135 be making sure that the resources and the marine habitats 0:12:47.135 --> 0:12:48.635 that they rely on are protected. 0:12:49.419 --> 0:12:52.830 But work is being done to turn the tide, so 0:12:52.830 --> 0:12:56.059 to speak, and get investments into 0:12:56.059 --> 0:12:58.510 projects. Well, I think the exciting news is that we're 0:12:58.510 --> 0:13:02.340 seeing greater awareness, uh, more engagement from the private sector 0:13:02.340 --> 0:13:06.030 on recognizing that there are investable projects out there. A 0:13:06.030 --> 0:13:08.390 key role for groups like the Nature Conservancy where I 0:13:08.390 --> 0:13:10.909 work is to help build and support a pipeline. 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.869 Of investable projects. So I'll give you an example. We're 0:13:13.869 --> 0:13:18.429 working in Indonesia with our Indonesia team, Yayasan Conservatilanuattara to 0:13:18.429 --> 0:13:22.030 help develop reef positive businesses. So these are ways of 0:13:22.030 --> 0:13:25.500 supporting businesses that are just starting out and incubating them 0:13:25.549 --> 0:13:29.390 so that they're generating revenue, but they're also importantly, helping 0:13:29.390 --> 0:13:32.549 to conserve valuable coral reefs and mangroves around the region. 0:13:33.190 --> 0:13:36.339 And that's Doctor Lizzie McLeod, global ocean director at the 0:13:36.340 --> 0:13:41.219 Nature Conservancy in her recent interview with CNA's Grace Shin. 0:13:41.539 --> 0:13:44.739 So lot's at stake and mining could put a lot 0:13:44.739 --> 0:13:48.890 of this in jeopardy potentially if it's not managed correctly. 0:13:49.219 --> 0:13:53.979 And already we have NGOs including Greenpeace, expressing concern that 0:13:53.979 --> 0:13:57.580 some of the early drafts for the political declaration at 0:13:57.580 --> 0:13:58.380 the UN summit, 0:13:59.010 --> 0:14:03.210 Have removed some of the earlier language that emphasized the 0:14:03.210 --> 0:14:07.650 importance of a precautionary approach to seabed mining. So there's 0:14:07.650 --> 0:14:11.239 no mention, they say, on a moratorium of the industry. 0:14:11.770 --> 0:14:15.169 And generally it seems that there's a weakening of ambition, 0:14:15.210 --> 0:14:18.280 not only on this issue but on other ambitions too, 0:14:18.530 --> 0:14:23.849 like restoring marine ecosystems and building climate resilience. And having 0:14:23.849 --> 0:14:26.650 reported on the UN climate conferences over the years, you 0:14:26.650 --> 0:14:28.250 can't say that this is surprising. 0:14:28.789 --> 0:14:33.150 So many vested interests, geopolitical dynamics, all mixed up in 0:14:33.150 --> 0:14:37.190 these declarations, so just like the seabed itself, it's all 0:14:37.190 --> 0:14:39.369 looking murky indeed. 0:14:41.010 --> 0:14:44.789 OK, back to our quiz question. I hope you've had 0:14:44.789 --> 0:14:47.590 a chance to take a guess at home, but repeating 0:14:47.590 --> 0:14:51.989 the question for you, which country was the first to 0:14:51.989 --> 0:14:56.119 apply for commercial deep sea mining rights? I don't know 0:14:56.119 --> 0:14:59.030 if our main story gave you a clue to this. 0:15:00.039 --> 0:15:05.520 China, Papua New Guinea, the United States, or Norway. I'm 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:06.760 gonna go with Norway. 0:15:07.659 --> 0:15:16.090 OK. There's Norway. That's correct. It's, it's PNG, Papua New Guinea. So, yeah, the, 0:15:16.340 --> 0:15:21.020 the Solwara, the Solwara 1 was the world's first commercial 0:15:21.020 --> 0:15:25.169 deep sea mining venture. The license was issued back in 2007, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.299 located in the Bismarck Sea, which is about 30 kilometers 0:15:28.299 --> 0:15:29.869 off the coast of PNG. 0:15:30.849 --> 0:15:35.250 It was targeting hydrothermal vent fields, and they were looking 0:15:35.250 --> 0:15:39.409 for copper, gold, silver, and zinc. Canadian company Nautilus Minerals 0:15:39.409 --> 0:15:43.340 behind this. Again, the Canadians seem to be getting keen 0:15:43.340 --> 0:15:46.640 on these types of projects, but a lot of controversy 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.770 and eventually the whole project collapsed and Nautilus filed for 0:15:49.770 --> 0:15:55.890 bankruptcy in 2019. OK, well, so not easy to get 0:15:55.890 --> 0:15:59.210 down there and mind the riches either. 0:15:59.750 --> 0:16:03.190 Hey, these nodules that you're talking about, right? The pictures 0:16:03.190 --> 0:16:06.070 you saw, are these, these just lie on the seabed. 0:16:06.109 --> 0:16:09.669 They're just there for the taking? Yep, there's some interesting 0:16:09.669 --> 0:16:12.950 science that kind of explains why this happens, this buildup 0:16:12.950 --> 0:16:16.270 of deposits over time. Like it's taken a long time 0:16:16.270 --> 0:16:19.309 for these nodules to appear. It's kind of interesting. It's 0:16:19.309 --> 0:16:22.109 a little bit too scientific, I think for the time 0:16:22.109 --> 0:16:24.469 we have here, but yeah, have a look at them because. 0:16:24.695 --> 0:16:27.005 It's quite surprising that that that exists. Yeah, I'm gonna 0:16:27.005 --> 0:16:30.405 look at the pictures now. OK, great. Thanks. OK, that's 0:16:30.405 --> 0:16:33.604 all for this episode of Climate Conversations. Thank you as 0:16:33.604 --> 0:16:35.924 always for joining us. Get in touch with us. We're 0:16:35.924 --> 0:16:38.205 both on LinkedIn. If you want to say hello. Catch 0:16:38.205 --> 0:16:41.065 you again next week. I'm Lee Ling Tan. Bye for now. 0:16:41.284 --> 0:16:43.244 And I'm Jack Board. Thanks as always as well to 0:16:43.244 --> 0:16:47.034 the team that put together this podcast, Saya Win, Tiffany Ang, 0:16:47.484 --> 0:16:49.755 Janai Jahari, and Christina Roberts.